Relationships & Dateing.

[Sprocket]

I’ve got a question was just curios is all. For starters I’m a 29-year-old male. I guess it’s more for the ladies here but guys can answer this as well. For the most part I don’t really have trouble-meeting woman, it’s just that mainly when I do I’m placed on a percentage. I’d say out of 100% I’m usually placed on the 80 - 95% of lets just be friends type of relationships and well that’s great and all but I really do need more of a closer relationship with a woman. So I guess what I’m asking is what am I doing wrong or what makes a woman decide on how far of a relationship there willing to go with someone and how can I change this percentage to something more then just having lots of woman friends, not to say theirs anything wrong with this situation but I really do need the closeness, intimacy that others have.

[Elana]

You need to give us more information about yourself. Are you always acting goofy? Are you the one that calls the woman 100% of the time? Do you ever act aloof, or are you always available 24/7 when a woman wants your attention? Give us more details....

[CJ01]

Well, let´s start with a simple Q : Is there a woman you´re particularly interested in already?

[proteus]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I’ve got a question was just curios is all. For starters I’m a 29-year-old male. I guess it’s more for the ladies here but guys can answer this as well. For the most part I don’t really have trouble-meeting woman, it’s just that mainly when I do I’m placed on a percentage. I’d say out of 100% I’m usually placed on the 80 - 95% of lets just be friends type of relationships and well that’s great and all but I really do need more of a closer relationship with a woman. So I guess what I’m asking is what am I doing wrong or what makes a woman decide on how far of a relationship there willing to go with someone and how can I change this percentage to something more then just having lots of woman friends, not to say theirs anything wrong with this situation but I really do need the closeness, intimacy that others have.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I was like you for a long time so I can relate. I read a lot of stuff on some of the seduction sites, on this site, and the thing that struck me most was that the guys who have relationships tend to be more willing to approach, aren\'t afraid to let a woman know that they are a sexual being, are willing to try and try again if they fail with one lady. So this is what I mainly worked on and the seduction sites and this site are great for that. And this stuff does work - I\'ve had a couple of flings since then, a gf, and then I recently began dating a great lady(well, I guess you could say she\'s my gf now since we have become intimate), who a couple of years ago I\'d have had no chance of being with simply because all too often I was \"too nice\", too afraid to make the moves I knew I had to make and say the things I needed too. But I also learnt you don\'t need to be an [censored], the proverbial \"jerk\" as this doesn\'t necessarily work either, especially if you want to meet a quality, intelligent woman. Most of the stuff I learnt at the seduction sites, and here, I just read, absorbed everything, found out what worked for me, what didn\'t work, found out what I was comfortable doing and did some of the things that did make me feel uncomfortable, and now I\'m at a point where honestly things just seem to \"click\" and the results speak for themselves. Oh, and of course the pheros help (y\'all should try NPA/w + WAGG - it has been gold for me!!). Anyway, long answer to a simple question but if you take the time it\'s worth it.

[DaVinciKittie]

Good post, Proteus.

A lot of what it comes down to is exactly what he said- you have to be confident and willing to approach. I think it\'s a misconception that the guys who always seem to have relationships (or at the very least, are always picking up different women) don\'t really have to try and don\'t get rejected. Of course they do, and they use those experiences to build upon so that they actually get better at it with every rejection. But you can\'t learn from your mistakes if you don\'t take the risk of making them. A lot of guys I know have problems getting stuck in the \"friend zone\", just like you\'re describing- I know b/c it\'s *me* they\'re firmly parked in the friend zone with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I\'ll tell you this, though, if there are any that I AM attracted to, and he starts giving me signals (do some research on kino), he\'s not gonna stay in the friend zone for too long. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif There\'s no magic method, and no one can tell you exactly how to go about it- you just have to get out there, and trust your instincts on when to move forward. Now, if you have a specific woman that you\'re after, and want to tell us more about that, we can give you more specific advice... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Holmes]

Excellent thoughts Proteus and DVK.

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A lot of guys I know have problems getting stuck in the \"friend zone\", just like you\'re describing- I know b/c it\'s *me* they\'re firmly parked in the friend zone with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

DVK, what are some of the reasons for this, as you see it? What is it about these guys that might keep \'em parked in the \"friend zone?\" (I\'m assuming it\'s hardly just a matter of not \"giving signals\"...)


Holmes

[Researcher]

just have the balls to carry yourself in a manner where you are there to f-ck her, not be her f-cken friend. A woman can\'t respect a a guy\'s manhood if they can\'t take her where she wants to go, can\'t take charge or take the lead. I am not saying to jump on top of your female friends all the time, but have the agenda that you are pursuing her sexually, and it will come across. If you don\'t set that tone in the beginning, you\'ll almost always be in that friends category.

Proteus said it is not about being a jerk. He is absolutely right. It is about confidence, particuraly in your \"right to breed with her\". Sometimes being a jerk can be an indication of that, because a man looking downon a woman it implies a man being higher on the social ladder, therefore being a step up for her. However, intelligent women won\'t go for a disrespectful man, just women lacking in confidence and with something to prove to themselves.

[akinu]

All girls will fall over you when you check your personal mail box. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DaVinciKittie]

In some cases it *is* a matter of not giving signals. I\'m not the type of woman to wear my heart on my sleeve, so to speak, so I play things pretty close to the vest. Even if I\'m really interested in a guy, I generally won\'t let him know beyond the typical \"attraction\" signals. If he doesn\'t respond to my initial signals (whether from lack of preceiving them AS signals or from disinterest), I generally make an effort to stop sending signals. It\'s almost as if I can turn off my attraction to him - it\'s a defense mechanism. If a guy isn\'t interested, he isn\'t interested- I\'m not going to push the issue.

Now, the reason I said all that is to give you an idea of how I do things. If I meet a guy and he doesn\'t seem interested in me for anything more intimate than friendship, friendship is what I\'ll give him. If he decides sometime down the road that he wants more, then he\'ll have to make the first move, or at least send me some signals. It\'s a whole lot easier, though, if he just makes it clear from the beginning that he\'s attracted. That way, there\'s no ambiguity about his level of interest and I feel more free to express myself. Plus, it just makes a girl feel good to know a man finds her attractive, even if she\'s not really interested in him. You asked why I think some guys always end up stuck as the friend. IMHO, it\'s b/c they\'re afraid to jeopardize their friendship (and therefore their opportunity to spend time with her) with the woman by showing attraction that she may not return, and the longer they wait, the harder it gets. Most women are able to have close friendships with men who have expressed attraction for them, even when their interest is only returned platonically.

To sum up, I think that guys who always find themselves in the friends zone need to re-examine their approach strategy. Do you compliment the woman when you first meet her (compliments do not have to be verbal- a touch here or there or even your continued interest can be a compliment)? Do you make it obvious (to her) that you\'re interested in her? Assuming she responds positively, do you take the initiative and ask to see her again? If you answered \"no\" or \"I don\'t know\" to any of those questions, then you know what you need to work on. Not all women are as careful as I am, especially given the general boldness represented by the women on this board /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif, but I think that many are, so you should probably take that into consideration next time you think a woman might not be interested in you. Give it a shot- you never know if you don\'t try. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Icarus]

Right on.

Although trying is the first step towards failing.. what\'s the worst that could happen?

Sure you could be plunged out of a burning plane into yet another burning plane (full of jobbing harmonica players with social problems) but that\'s so ridiculous I\'m suprised you even brought it up.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Steve

[nonscents]

Wow, DVK! That was a great post.

[Holmes]

Yes, indeed. Outstanding, DVK. That\'s what I wanted to know. Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Holmes

[nonscents]

DVK wrote </font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Do you compliment the woman when you first meet her (compliments do not have to be verbal- a touch here or there or even your continued interest can be a compliment)?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

What kind of kino do you like (expect) a guy to give you?

[Holmes]

Good question...

Holmes

[CptKipling]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Right on.

Although trying is the first step towards failing.. what\'s the worst that could happen?

Sure you could be plunged out of a burning plane into yet another burning plane (full of jobbing harmonica players with social problems) but that\'s so ridiculous I\'m suprised you even brought it up.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Steve

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

The heat wave getting to you too huh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DaVinciKittie]

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What kind of kino do you like (expect) a guy to give you?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I think it\'s sexy when a man lightly places his hand on the small of my back as we\'re walking, especially in a crowded area or where we\'re filing through a small space single file. Not so much that he\'s pushing me along, but a gentle reminder that he\'s watching out for me, and a statement to the people around that he\'s with me.

If he\'s heading off to the bar (or where ever- we\'re talking about when you first meet someone, so a bar or club seems appropriate), I like it when he lightly trails his hand/fingers across my upper arm as he passes. Sort of a \"be right back\" gesture, but more personal.

If we\'re dancing, one of the sexiest things a guy can do is to grip my hips (obviously I\'m talking about club dancing here). Not so much that it\'s painful and I don\'t want him to force me to move a certain way, but a nice strong presence that insures we move together. This is a good position to go into a dip (bend forward so that she has to bend backward, stand up straight again, and use your hands to guide her back up slowly from the dip) or to run your hands up and down her sides and around on her back. Nice light touches- not groping, but a definite hint of possession.

Once we\'re past the initial \"showing interest\" stage, I like finger play. You know, we\'re sitting/standing around, maybe taking a break or just talking, and he starts lightly running his fingertips over mine. It\'s almost like holding hands with your fingers intertwined, but your hands don\'t ever stop moving long enough to actually get to that point. *That* is sexy- it seriously turns me on, especially if he keeps the conversation going like there\'s nothing unusual about it. Keeps it casual yet personal, so it\'s not too threatening. If you\'re alone, this is a good opportunity to lead into a hand massage, which can lead to a foot massage, and, well, you can take it from there.

Just for basic \"showing interest\" type kino, though, I\'d say be sure to make contact with her often, but in casual and non-threatening ways. Keep the touch light and fleeting, keep the conversation going (don\'t do it during awkward silences unless you\'re sure she\'s into you and ready to move to the next level, of you could put her off entirely), make frequent eye contact and smile while doing it, find ways to insinuate that you find her attractive without saying it straight out, etc. If she responds well to these things, then keep it up but try to up the level of intimacy... longer and more frequent touches (maybe start to make the touches a little more personal. Don\'t feel her up, but definitely start to push the boundaries you\'ve already set), move further into her personal space (like move your head closer to hers when you\'re talking or dancing). If things are really going well, this is a good time to start working up to asking her out. That way, when the night is over and you\'re going your separate ways, you can more easily and comfortably ask for her number (and for god\'s sake, if you say you\'re going to call her, then CALL her. And do NOT wait a *WEEK*).

Anyway, I hope that\'s somewhat along the lines of what you were looking for. I can clarify if I didn\'t express something well enough. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Icarus]

Great post DVK!

That should help some people avoid the \"I don\'t touch\" syndrome, or its more sleazy alternative \"The Many Wandering Hands of The Desperate Love Machine\" or TMWHOTDLM for... short..

Yeh Kipling, the heatwave was frying my braincage - had to then go meet some people for lunch...

The REAL terror of global warming? - Ugly British people taking thier clothes of and getting all frisky. It\'s like a dwarf with learning difficulties: It\'s not big, and it\'s not clever.

Steve

Please note, that contrary to popular opinion, the British are not actually an ugly race - sure, a lot of them are really pale, and an increasing number are becoming overweight... Can\'t remember where I was going with that, but there\'s tons of really beautiful women over here. (And I suppose the guys are alright too.)

[CJ01]

Right on. I´ve seen a lot of pretty good looking brits oin my life. One small critique would be from my point of view, is that they could make an effort to make a bit more of themselves. They´re such LADS /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. But I like `em /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif. They´re good fun.

[CJ01]

Icarus, how are they suppose to get tanned if they don´t take their kit off? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Icarus]

I would recommend some form of brown magic marker.

Anyways.. I\'m half-Scottish, so I get lumped under the banner heading of British - I\'m not slagging anyone off, just making some hilariously unfunny jokes.

The sun is out, so I\'m gonna go sit in the Gardens in the city centre!

Steve

Actually, on a day like today, you can be certain of seeing hundreds of really hot females wandering around Edinburgh in various states of undress. Yay! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Holmes]

Thank you DVK!! Great post--very helpful! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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if you say you\'re going to call her, then CALL her. And do NOT wait a *WEEK*).

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yeah, I had a hard time buying that \"Doc Love\"-type idea of waiting for 9 days or whatever. Sounded like a load to me...


Holmes

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
\"The Many Wandering Hands of The Desperate Love Machine\" or TMWHOTDLM for... short..

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

LOL. Awesome...

Holmes

[Skyy]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Thank you DVK!! Great post--very helpful! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
if you say you\'re going to call her, then CALL her. And do NOT wait a *WEEK*).

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yeah, I had a hard time buying that \"Doc Love\"-type idea of waiting for 9 days or whatever. Sounded like a load to me...


Holmes




<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Im not to familiar with Doc Love\'s methods, but he suggests you wait 9 days? Can you go into detail why he says this? Does it work? 9 days in quite a while...

[Researcher]

don\'t wait nine days on someone u only have known a couple hours! that time will be a distant memory, do two days.

if the person is ion your social circle and they know they will have to run into you again, 9 days could be good because it seems like your whole week was full and u got other things going on, and the anger of u not cqalling might wear off.......but i think not calling quickly is wrong to do no matter....why put someone in that suspense and that waiting game if you care about their feelngs?

[Icarus]

I\'ve never bought into that Doc Love style guff, but from what I can gather it has something to do with pretending that you are so busy, that this beautiful girl is only *one* more thing on your to do list.

Bad move.

I would probably recommend that you don\'t call straight after you\'ve just arrived back home after getting her number, then leave 100 messages throughout the night asking stuff about her, telling her stuff about yourself; punctuated every so often with some form of animal sounds (like a 30 second message of you gently mooing \"to serenade her\"... but definitly be sure to register your interest... (if you\'re interested in her, there\'s a good chance that many other men that don\'t follow some stupid 9 day rule thing may be interested too)

A rule of thumb to cut through this drivel I keep driveling?

Don\'t be too eager, don\'t be too aloof, just be yourself.

Is this starting to sound like an after-school-special?

(or a \'Wonder Years moment\' - \"Now I didn\'t know if Marie-Ann felt the same way as me, but we had had our fun... And I realised, that a little part of my childhood had died that day\" It seemed like that little git\'s childhood was withering from episode to episode. I wanted to see him as some college burnout in the not too distant future.. Jaded, cynical and dead-eyed; having lived a childhood that contained so many \'moral messages\' every week that he had lost his sense of right and wrong and become horribly disillusioned as to his rightful place in the world. But then, perhaps I\'m the jaded one) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Why doesn\'t Batman dance anymore....?

Steve

[Researcher]

funny stuff and great advice...u should be a writer if you are not

[DaVinciKittie]

Researcher said:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
i think not calling quickly is wrong to do no matter....why put someone in that suspense and that waiting game if you care about their feelngs?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Exactly. Good man, Researcher. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Icarus said:
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I would probably recommend that you don\'t call straight after you\'ve just arrived back home after getting her number, then leave 100 messages throughout the night

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif LOL! Also very true. I think, from what I\'ve read, that the Doc Love advice of waiting such a long period of time, is based on the assumption that the woman will be more attracted to you, will find you more intriguing, and will have less \"control\" (DL is big on \"control\") in the resulting relationship if you don\'t show her obvious or eager interest. I don\'t agree with this. Not only is it rude and disrespectful, it\'s playing games with people\'s feelings, and while there may be a small percentage of women/girls that this might work on (I find it highly likely that these are women with low self-esteem, so this could seriously hurt them if you were to keep up this sort of behavior on a regular basis), I think the majority would lose respect for you and then you\'d have to work even harder. There was a lot of Doc Love support around here a while back (especially concerning the call-back time frame), so I\'m glad to see there are still some of you who kept your heads on straight (no pun intended). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DaVinciKittie]

Sprocket, did we answer your question, or do you need further/more specific advice?

[akinu]

Hahaha! I answered his question /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif too late /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I am sure he\'s on his way to his first \"hit\" .

However I cant deny that you have created a great masterpiece here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Holmes]

DVK wrote:

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I think, from what I\'ve read, that the Doc Love advice of waiting such a long period of time, is based on the assumption that the woman will be more attracted to you, will find you more intriguing, and will have less \"control\" (DL is big on \"control\") in the resulting relationship if you don\'t show her obvious or eager interest.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Correct. That\'s \"Doc\" Love\'s schtick in a nutshell: the longer you wait to call (I think it was maybe 4 days minimum, no?), the bigger an enigma you will become, thereby intensifying the other person\'s curiosity and interest in you. Hmmmm.....again, not too sure I agree with that, either. Seems to me that there\'s some big-time generalizing going on there (i.e. \"ahhh, come on, they\'re all the same...\") /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif I wonder how many people this strategy\'s actually worked for...

Granted, not calling the minute you get home (so to speak) is probably wise, but that \"9-day\" deal just seems like it would leave room for a potentially positive situation to backfire on you.

Holmes

[Sagacious1420]

DVK-
Thanks for the kino post. Glad to have you around here providing us w/ some great insights. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Ya know, it\'s kinda funny that Ol\' Doc Love says that guys should never initiate kino...that we\'re supposed to wait for her to make the first move. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Regarding DL\'s \"wait a week to call\" method, it\'s my understanding that he has a few reasons for this: (1) to separate yourself from what he refers to as the \"wussies\" and \"chumps\" who call w/in 2 days, (2) to give the impression that you have a life (even if you don\'t) and are not desperate (even if you are) and (3) to test her interest level. I think this is all part of what he considers being a challenge. He postulates that if her interest level is actually very high, then she\'ll be thinking of you in the interim and wondering why you haven\'t called. Seems to me that once she starts wondering why you haven\'t called for a week, she\'s probably lumped you into the \"why don\'t these jerks ever call me like they said they would\" pile. Doesn\'t that sound promising!?! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

From what I\'ve read, DL does make a few good points here and there, just like the other dating \"gurus\" out there. But, overall, each \"system\" seems to be flawed, IMO.

Allow me to share a personal experience. I had this girl volunteer her number and I lost it for like 2 or 3 days, but wasn\'t all that concerned \'cause I wasn\'t really sure how much I really liked her and so I never called her even after I found the number. Well, to make a long story short, a week later I ran into her at the club where we met and I would have to say that it\'s pretty much impossible to mistake indifference for interest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif It\'s a bummer, too, \'cause I run into her all the time. Suffice it to say that I\'d never have a chance w/ her or anyone she knows. Remember, if you screw a chick over, you haven\'t just blown it w/ her, you\'ve virtually screwed yourself out of a chance w/ every girls she knows. And in the area where I live, it could mean a death sentence for your love life. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[DaVinciKittie]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Seems to me that once she starts wondering why you haven\'t called for a week, she\'s probably lumped you into the \"why don\'t these jerks ever call me like they said they would\" pile. Doesn\'t that sound promising!?!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

LOL! Exactly. Your comment about not having a chance with all the girl\'s friends is pretty accurate too. We do talk to each other about good/bad dates (or lack thereof), so that\'s a good point to get across.

You know, I actually had a pretty damn good dream last night that started out with the finger play- god it is *SUCH* a turn-on. Beau from Paradise Hotel... mmmmmm he\'s such a hottie! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Beau from Paradise Hotel... mmmmmm he\'s such a hottie!


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Off topic for just a quick second, and then I will leave..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I loved Zack\'s looks and that sweet, hard body. I would have had to put a muzzle on him before I seduced him. He was such a jerk.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Remember, if you screw a chick over, you haven\'t just blown it w/ her, you\'ve virtually screwed yourself out of a chance w/ every girls she knows. And in the area where I live, it could mean a death sentence for your love life. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Very good point, Sag.


Holmes

[DaVinciKittie]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I loved Zack\'s looks and that sweet, hard body. I would have had to put a muzzle on him before I seduced him. He was such a jerk.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ha ha, yeah. Zach was a hottie, for sure, but I was not sad to see him go. Now if only Amy\'s b!tchy @ss would get kicked off, all would be well. Ok, sorry to take it off topic guys, but I had to rant about this show that I keep telling myself I\'m going to stop watching. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Elana]

One more time and I am seriously done....

AMY SUCKS!!!! What the hell is wrong with that witch? She is treating the new guy so bad and he seems like such a cool guy. Amy must go! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[DaVinciKittie]

Yah, no kidding! Ha. Maybe we should start a Paradise Hotel thread. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Researcher]

He postulates that if her interest level is actually very high, then she\'ll be thinking of you in the interim and wondering why you haven\'t called. &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;


If her interest level is high, you can call in two days and her interest level will be high /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Now how often is a female\'s interest level that high enough where she will actually be happy that some ass she met at the club had the nerve to call her back nine days later?

High interest does not come that often anyway if you just met here that night. We know I-want-you-attraction happens slower for most females. So while there may be interest, doc lov baseing his rules around a high interest scenario is like writing for an audience of brad pitts.

[DaVinciKittie]

Oh, it\'s so refreshing to see you guys actually discussing this from the same side as the women (or, I guess, from the same side as me, since I\'m the only woman so far contributing to this chat) for a change. It was starting to feel decidedly anti-female around here for a while, so I\'m glad to see you speaking up, and I\'m glad that this discussion is still rational and level-headed. Kudos. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bundyburger]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You know, I actually had a pretty damn good dream last night that started out with the finger play- god it is *SUCH* a turn-on.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ooo yeah.. Finger play.
Especially when it\'s the type that\'s not allowed. i.e. From a situation I told of earlier in the year. Her best friend wanted me, but this other girl and I, we hit it off waaaaay to well.
When all the others left the dance floor to go \'talk\' the two of us stood there talking , one hand each up at head height, elbows bent. My right, her left. Palms facing each other. The finger play was of the kind that says \'Ouch too hot, shouldn\'t touch!\' But knowing you can\'t stop each other. The type that leads to more and more bold KINO. But in this case couldn\'t. DOH!

[Researcher]

It was starting to feel decidedly anti-female around here for a while&gt;&gt;&gt; treat em rough you\'ll get that muff /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

it is a joke don\'t get mad!

too add to why soemtimes you don\'t get calls from guys....it is because they are scared. especially if it was just a meeting at a bar, because guys think that they may not be remembered (drinking) or liked as much (person doesn\'t really know u) by the time they do call.

I know i hate having to call someone because I prefer in-person communication as a follow-up so they can see me, etc, but you got to force yourself anyway. but anytime i ever didn\'t call was when i was younger and didn\'t have the courage, and i know guys who don\'t call for those same reasns. It is not necessarily, not usually, anything against the woman, it is the fear and awkwardness of the situation that leads to guys not calling.

[akinu]

I am worried that you people will overgeneralize what is discussed here. There is never \"one way\" in romantic relationships, as there is never \"one way\" in things that involve human beings. Most of the time, unnecessary generalizations will make you frustrated when you see an example which does not belong to your great generalization. As for when to call; I agree one week is long, but I heard several girls wanting the opposite. Similarly what type of kino or how to advance the relationship will vary from girl to girl (e.g. what DVK described was just \"too fast\" for many girls I\'ve been with -no not Turkish- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Most of the people here seem to be too carried away with what DVK has said. Her descriptions are very valuable,ture; but some of you guys seem to accept them as absolute data, which will jeopardize your efforts to learn and incorporate new things into your love life. I said \"some\". please dont write \"how can you say such a thing! I am not like that!\" replies

[CJ01]

Every person has different opinions and preferences. You also have to learn to interpret the situation, what´s appropriate etc. There are no formulas to go by really.
But my god wouldn´t it be incredibly boring if that were really the case? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
It all depends on so many things and thy type of relationship and chemistry have with each other etc.... it´s not easy I´ve you´re not sure - that´s just life I guess.
CJ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DaVinciKittie]

Of course everyone is different. I\'ve been very careful to phrase my posts so that they communicate *my* opionion and preferences, and not some definite standard. I\'m sure the guys know that. What\'s been posted so far is valuable information (not just mine, but the responses as well), so to say that all this is generalization and therefore of little worth, is somewhat belittling. My location is in my profile, so I assume it\'s generally accepted that I speak from an American (or Texas) culture point of view. Some women do move faster than me, and some slower, but that\'s the whole reason for this discussion. In your experience, Akinu, the girls for which the kino I described would be \"too fast\", what worked with them? What did they like and dislike? We could easily make this a more rounded discussion with more varied input. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Icarus]

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[DaVinciKittie]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
too add to why soemtimes you don\'t get calls from guys....it is because they are scared. especially if it was just a meeting at a bar, because guys think that they may not be remembered (drinking) or liked as much (person doesn\'t really know u) by the time they do call.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Researcher, I\'m glad you brought that up. Sometimes I\'ve wondered if that might be a factor, but in the dating scene it\'s so easy to start finding flaws in yourself, and to assume that *those* were the reason for the silence. And of course, there are those women who give out their number and do not wish to be called. After getting a few of those, I can see why a guy might be reluctant to try again, but honestly, those women aren\'t worth your time. When I meet a guy that I\'m really interested in, enough to want to continue getting to know him, I\'ll make sure that we *exchange* phone numbers, and not just give him mine. That way, if I haven\'t heard from him after 3 or 4 days, I can give him a call and maybe make plans for the weekend. This way he has a definite out if he isn\'t interested, and no one gets their feelings hurt. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyway, just more thoughts.

[DaVinciKittie]

Ha! Okay, Steve, I\'m starting to worry about you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Icarus]

Me too... it\'s hot outside!

Steve

[Elana]

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[akinu]

I disagree! That was the funniest thing I\'ve ever read! I sure would like to write a testimonial to your supersexy hat /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DVK-- What you have written are the ideals. If you spread the whole thing to two weeks, then you\'ll describe my experience. The age matters too.. I was 19 by then. Aaaah good old days..

[CJ01]

www.SexHead.com (\"http://www.SexHead.com\") just what on gods earth is wrong with this link? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Researcher]

That way, if I haven\'t heard from him after 3 or 4 days, I can give him a call and maybe make plans for the weekend&gt;&gt;&gt;

DVK, that is pretty cool of you. Many people would not have the fortitude to put themselves in that situation and risk the rejection.

But yea, you can\'t take a guy not calling personally. I hear women all the time wondering why guys don\'t call, and well, we see women as these \"no I\'m not interested in you beings\" who have the upper hand in the dating game. That is because we are so often instantly attracted to females when females are indifferent to us, and we become accustomed to this lack of interest from women. If we didn\'t we never would be able to negotiate through the temptation and unfilled desires we go through on a daily basis.

That fear is compounded when we have to then show interest in someone, in that first does-she-take-me-seriously/like me call, because it is done over the phone, a form of communication where it is easier to not show compassion for the situation because the person isn\'t looking at you in the eyes.

[DaVinciKittie]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If you spread the whole thing to two weeks, then you\'ll describe my experience.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

LOL! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Ok, I didn\'t mean you should try all that kino in one night! Just thought that since I was putting it out there I might as well give various examples. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DaVinciKittie]

Two or three years ago I would *never* have called a guy who didn\'t call me first, but one of the things I\'m learning as I get older is that the most successful people make things happen for themselves. If I don\'t take a chance and make the effort then I can\'t complain about lack of success. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
we are so often instantly attracted to females when females are indifferent to us, and we become accustomed to this lack of interest from women.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

We aren\'t indifferent, I promise. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif We just aren\'t as obvious as you guys wish we were. There are times (not always, and not as often, so I\'ll give you that) that we want you just as badly as you want us. We just signal it in different ways. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Two or three years ago I would *never* have called a guy who didn\'t call me first, but one of the things I\'m learning as I get older is that the most successful people make things happen for themselves. If I don\'t take a chance and make the effort then I can\'t complain about lack of success. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Amen, Soul Sista! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Good points.


Holmes

[bundyburger]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Bored of smelling like you\'ve gone 10 rounds with Mike Tyson\'s Jock-Strap on your head?


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

EWWW! WHY did I have to put a spoon full of cereal in my mouth just as I read that. YUK!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Akinu,
You must have been the only guy taking what DVK said as gospel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Too fast?? The whole idea of KINO is to guage what step to take and how fast. Even my example was a rare one to be happening that quickly after meeting. If only it was that good with every girl I was interested in.

[krtel]

After completely reading The System, I think most of Doc Love\'s advice is concrete. Following his advice on being a challenge, having confidence, and being able to control myself has worked wonders for me. The only thing that has been detrimental is the one-week rule. I think it adds value into a potential relationship to be a challenge, but I think that waiting one-week is taking challenge too far. So I altered this rule and decided to wait 2-3 days - so far so good.

What I\'ve noticed about the one-week rule is that sometimes you will get dates, but you hurt the girl, which is not my intention. My point being is that sometimes advice shouldn\'t be taken as prescribed, but rather molded to yield the results you want, without damaging anyone\'s emotions.

- Krish

[DaVinciKittie]

Good post, Krish. Although I often disagree with some of the specific methods prescribed by the dating help series out there (such as the one week bit), nearly all of them stress self-confidence, and with *that* I completely agree. One of the things I\'ve come to realize, over the past few years, is that if you don\'t believe in yourself, then you can\'t really expect others too either. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DaVinciKittie]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That fear is compounded when we have to then show interest in someone, in that first does-she-take-me-seriously/like me call, because it is done over the phone, a form of communication where it is easier to not show compassion for the situation because the person isn\'t looking at you in the eyes.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You know, Researcher, I was thinking... (I know- dangerous thing, that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)
Instead of just getting the girl\'s number after meeting her, why not just go ahead and ask to see her again? That way you know she\'s interested (or she\'d have said no- or maybe- to begin with), so when you call her all you have to do is get directions to pick her up. You know, before the night is over, assuming all is going well, say you\'d like to see her again or tell her that you and some friends are going hiking the next day if she wants to come (or whatever- sometimes making it a group event can make it seem less intimidating for her, especially if the friends are the people she\'s already met from that night). Go ahead and set a time to pick her up, and then you get her number so all you have to do is call the next day for directions. I\'d think that would be much less intimidating for you and more satisying all around than the next-day-call-back issue. Yes? No?

[Sexyredhead]

Where did the one-week-rule come from anyway? Isn\'t it a bit outdated, from back in the day when it was harder to call someone because not everybody had a phone, there weren\'t any answering machines, and you may not have lived close enough to get anywhere near the girl in less than a week, especially since you were having to bale hay?
With all the methods we have today for getting in touch with somebody, it seems a bit obvious what you\'re doing if you wait a week to call a girl. If you\'re not doing the \'one week rule\', either you\'re too busy and don\'t really care, or you don\'t have a cell phone/regular phone/email/palm pilot/etc to get in touch with her. It just doesn\'t make sense to me.

[CJ01]

About waiting to call her or not ....

If you don´t get in touch or follow idiotic advice from certain websites and stuff (no names)like don´t call her for a week - hellooooo! - what makes you think she´s still gonna be interested in you or someone else has already gotten hold of her and you´re just OUT by the time you pick up that phone /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
CJ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
About waiting to call her or not ....

If you don´t get in touch or follow idiotic advice from certain websites and stuff (no names)like don´t call her for a week - hellooooo! - what makes you think she´s still gonna be interested in you or someone else has already gotten hold of her and you´re just OUT by the time you pick up that phone /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
CJ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Right, exactly.


Holmes

[Researcher]

DVK. I never ask can i have your number. I say i\'d like to see you again type deal, or we should go to lunch, etc. And a lot of that \"how will she react\" stuff can be avoided by telling the person what you expect from them, which they can\'t get mad about when you accompany it by letting them know that you respect things from their perspective as well, and that\'s why you are going to call at this time and such.

I still get some fear, but when I comment on these things, please don\'t take it as me spewing my own hidden issues, it is more me seeing the experiences that my male counterparts go through from a perspective that you may not and wanting to share the what-it\'s-like-for-a-man side so that you see what men go through, and of course, more importantly, do not get your feelings hurt if someone doesn\'t call because its probably because there is something unsettled with him then with you.

[DaVinciKittie]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
DVK. I never ask can i have your number. I say i\'d like to see you again type deal, or we should go to lunch, etc. And a lot of that \"how will she react\" stuff can be avoided by telling the person what you expect from them, which they can\'t get mad about when you accompany it by letting them know that you respect things from their perspective as well, and that\'s why you are going to call at this time and such.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I think we\'re on the same page here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif That\'s pretty much what I was talking about. You *do* have to get her number at some point, though, or you\'ll have no way to contact her if plans change. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif