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ToBeOrNotToBe

07-15-2003, 10:45 AM

Have anyone in the forum ever used creatine (combined with hard work at the gym) for increasing muscle mass? Well, I know some have...

What results did you achieve? Any side effects? For how long did you use it?

TBiRD

07-15-2003, 11:24 AM

-all u gain is mostly water
-most people loose what they gain , once they are off a cycle
-works wonders for some - doesn\'t do any good for others
-sideeffects : Ugly water bloated face (very common) + higher injury risk.
-steroids were found in alot of creatine products (eventhough they claim to be 100% pure) - companys spike the creatine with that $hit to promote gains , and make the people buy again , because they still believe its the creatine responsible for unusual mucle growth.
-if u consider trying creatine , make sure your source is really 100% clean and pure + has a good reputation.

Judgin from my own experience , it was a waste of time and money (+ the bloated face effect for 2 weeks)

make sure u have the right diet and u don\'t need any kind of wonnabe enhancements like creatine , tribulus blablabla.

Only thing I\'d consider really helpfull for maintaining the gained muscle is : glutamine !!! Works indeed , doesn\'t have any crazy sideeffects.

franki

07-15-2003, 12:03 PM

Hey, a few months ago you were extremely enthousiastic about this tribulus supplement you got .. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Andy

07-15-2003, 12:35 PM

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
-all u gain is mostly water

<hr /></blockquote>
You don\'t \"gain\" water, your body stores the creatine in the muscle cells and they store more water. The real gains occur much later than that effect and they are based on ATP transmission and restoration.

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
-most people loose what they gain , once they are off a cycle

<hr /></blockquote>
That\'s right, because they have no clue how to end a cycle. You have to provide a ridiculous amount of L-Glutamine and you have to go for the maximum pump at least 1 Month in advance. The trick is not to gain with Creatine, the trick is to keep it.

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
-works wonders for some - doesn\'t do any good for others

<hr /></blockquote>
It worked for everybody I know who has the needed background info and isn\'t just shoveling this stuff into the body.

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
-sideeffects : Ugly water bloated face (very common) + higher injury risk.

<hr /></blockquote>
Yeah, that\'s a turndown ... the water stores everywhere in your body ... the question is if you wanna look good while training .. or after the training ?!?!? The injury risk is only given in max power training and statistically not higher than common. Many people have overdone it, it\'s quite seductive because you are able to pump much more in a much shorter time period.

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
-steroids were found in alot of creatine products (eventhough they claim to be 100% pure) - companys spike the creatine with that $hit to promote gains , and make the people buy again , because they still believe its the creatine responsible for unusual mucle growth.

<hr /></blockquote>
There have been a few! (I know of only one proven case and that was the Creatine from Performance about 2 years ago) cases in the past, but that\'s a long time ago and all products have been clear since then.
<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
-if u consider trying creatine , make sure your source is really 100% clean and pure + has a good reputation.

<hr /></blockquote>
That\'s funny because actually all the sources that had a \"good reputation\" (i.e.: Performance) have been under suspicion.

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
Judgin from my own experience , it was a waste of time and money (+ the bloated face effect for 2 weeks)

<hr /></blockquote>
How long have you used it ? You haven\'t consumed Caffeine while bein\' on Creatine, have you ?

<blockquote>In Antwort auf:<hr />
Only thing I\'d consider really helpfull for maintaining the gained muscle is : glutamine !!! Works indeed , doesn\'t have any crazy sideeffects.

<hr /></blockquote>
That was really inspiring ... it\'s like sayin\' \"Use bricks to build a stonehouse, works indeed\". Muscles are mainly made of glutamine ... glutamine is an opportunistic high-turnover substance and it\'s almost ridiculous to think of significant gains or keeping mass without L-Glutamine supplementation unless you\'re really into raw meat /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Whitehall

07-15-2003, 12:56 PM

I\'ve tried it while on 4AD and heavy lifting. My impression was that it had cosmetic effects only in bloating your muscles.

Now \"cosmetic\" is OK by me - it did make my muscles pop out and look lumpy but some women love that look - and I didn\'t have to starve myself to cut body fat either. Frankly, I scared myself, I was so beefy looking!

After stopping, the lumpiness went away in a very few days (less than a week, I\'m sure, maybe two or three days.)

So now, I\'ll use it if I know that in a couple of days I will be wanting to impress a woman with my muscles. Just do some pushups before you take off your shirt - that really pumps them up.

Andy

07-15-2003, 02:43 PM

I used it the last time with 4AD too, with different results. It was a two month cycle creatin combined with a 4 week cycle 4AD. I took up to 10 grams in total, most of the time right in the morning 5 and after the workout 5. I used a transport matrix called \"Vitargo\", that is supposed to be a better delivering agent than dextrose. I did heavy weight lifting the first 6 weeks and turned over to go for the max pump in the 7th week, I started supplementing higher doses of L-Glutamine at this time for the next 6 weeks (one month without Creatine). I kept most of the mass after my muscles have been \"dry\" again. I think most problems result in the fact that most people just don\'t have enough nutriton to build muscle mass in such a short time. You have to have an abundance of calories in order to bulk up. This results into a gain in body fat, that\'s why there\'s something like a mass/cut cycle /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. You just can\'t go into such a cycle with a 3000 calorie intake, expecting it to be enough.

TBiRD

07-15-2003, 02:58 PM

well Andy , u know my views on creatine now + be rest assured I tried it more than once following a correct cycling + routine. + You definetly underestimate the increased injury risk. In my sport (wich is all about explosivness) its too high a risk. + Contrary to you - I happen to know many athlets + bodybuilders who tried creatine , also following a correct routine (avoiding coffeine) and mostly gained water - wich they lost afterwards , leaving them with little \"dry\" muscle gains.
Creatine is/was overhyped. SO what if u are lucky and manage to pack some extra muscle ? You will loose it as quickly when u have to stop training to recover from some injurys.

Oh and another thing to consider with creatine : Eventhough its been around for so long , and many athlets take it, THERE AREN\'T ANY LONG TERM STUDYS ! You can\'t know for sure what possible longterm damage (besides \"down-regulating\" your own production) creatine might do to your body.

+ yet another thing to consider with creatine : If you want to raise your chances on completing a successfull cycle YOU MUST drink ridiculuous,huge amounts of water , DAILY , otherwise u will damage your kidneys ! (or not experience full creatine effects) Discipline is a keyword here.

+ I did not mean/say glutamine helps in gaining muscle. All I meant was : It helps to keep what u got/get . And I find it to be very effective ! You don\'t need anything else to achieve a \"mens health cover\" body but : A diet that suits your body + needs + way of training , + high intensity , high weight , low reps training + glutamine (if needed)

@franki - I don\'t remember saying anything in favour of tribulus. If I did , point me to that thread. + If I did , so what ? I can\'t change my mind ? lol ?!?! Last thing I remember suggesting was the usage of zinc and magnesium citrat to create your own ZMA.

Well, I just posted to share my opinion and experiences. I\'m sure some might agree , others disagree - so mr first poster , decide for yourself /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mtnjim

07-15-2003, 03:15 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
-works wonders for some - doesn\'t do any good for others

<hr /></blockquote>
It worked for everybody I know who has the needed background info and isn\'t just shoveling this stuff into the body.

I agree with the ATP->ADP cycle part. Studies have found that 10-15% of the population are Creatine \"non-responders.

JMO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

johnyo

07-15-2003, 03:32 PM

Creatine is a MUST for the gym period.. dont bother without it.. It has been around a long time because it works. Prolonging ATP to the muscles is key to recovery and longer stress to the muscles under load...

Load for 4 days at 20g then10 gram maintenance.. + tons of water...

Also use NO2, NOx2 or VasoXP with the creatine (and some andros like mag-10 of course) .. tons of water you need though...

Andy

07-16-2003, 12:58 AM

Is mag-10 worth the astronomic price ? This stuff is more expensive than \"clean\" roids.

ToBeOrNotToBe

07-16-2003, 01:30 AM

I have achieved great results in 9 months of hard work in the gym without taking any kind of supplements, just eating a lot.

Anyway, perhaps I\'ll try a simple protein powder, that\'s safer.

johnyo

07-16-2003, 03:45 AM

MAG-10 is great... i just got off a cycle and put on 8 pounds... it does nothing without 6 meals a day though and heavy lifting for a 2 week period... and yes expensive, but Most PH\'s are without the extreme side effects of juice..

j

manchorito

07-22-2003, 08:13 PM

Tobeornottobe already has read this, but there is more than what i wrote him. You Guys in the forum are slightly misinformed, believe me my brother-in-law works for a pharmecuetical co. that makes supplements. I use creatine and have for a while, I notice a huge difference in the first couple of weeks. And it does not give you more water as they say, it sends water and amino acids to your muscles so you can work out longer. I work out twice as much when I use it. You are supposed to use it for a month, then off a month, for a month, and so on. Usually you will go up about 40-50 lbs in bench press, then go down 10-20 lbs. Just drink a lot of water. The best affordable creatine monohydrate out there is American Stamina, made by American Whey. It has 10.25 grams of creatine per serving, and the grape does awesome. There is no danger if you drink a lot of water, and it DOES help. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Icarus

07-31-2003, 02:05 AM

Don\'t want to piss anyone off here... but you shouldn\'t need to take supplements. Good Diet - Good Training - Good Lifesytle - Good Rest... are all that\'s really needed.

I beat unconducive genetics (to gaining muscle) merely by willpower and trial on error alone. - all the supplement heads in the gym always ask me which powders/pills I\'m on to make my body look the way it does, and refuse to believe me when I say that I don\'t use any. The only one that I might be pushed to recommend would be a Protien shake (or High Protien Meal Replacement Drink) because it helped me gain weight when I had plateaud, and is somewhat easier than trying to actually consume the requisite number of grams of protien.

If you don\'t want it enough to try harder, then a supplement ain\'t gonna do jack!

Happy training!

Steve

P.S. I did have some \'interesting\' results with Creatine, but have since discontinued use... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

08-18-2003, 12:58 PM

Of course when training for size its best to use low reps , heavy weights, streching your muscles between sets. Every good body builder knows that proper diet is needed to replenish muscles and allow them to rebuild. Although to say that you can achieve the same results without creatine is outlandish. I have had the previlage of working out with perfessional wrestlers and their trainers. It is true as they say many are on \"the juice\" but many are not. Creatine has effects on the actual strength of the muscle. Cycling creatine CORRECTLY will allow you to make huge strides in muscle mass and strength. Its all about using the stuff right. Of course there always the guy whos like i used the stuff correctly and it didn\'t work for me. I will let you in on a little secret he didn\'t use it correctly or used an inferior creatine product. Creatine delivery to muscle has improved due to time release products. I have put on over 20lbs off muscle using creatine. Your best bet is to talk to a good personal trainer who knows what hes talking about man. Honestly nothing agaisnt the negative remarks about creatine but in reality there are hundreds of thousand of creatine users who will tell you otherwise! I made positive gains without creatine but compared to with creatine theres no comparison.

Holmes

08-18-2003, 01:13 PM

Nate dogg,

Liquid or powder creatine?

Holmes

Icarus

08-18-2003, 01:20 PM

never use liquid stuff

I would gladly take advice on how to use creatine \'correctly\' - but sad fact is, I look a great deal better, and have gained very good quality muscle (that rarely decreases in strength) over and above all those at my gym and every other person that I have EVER met who uses creatine (amongst other supplements).

IMHO (and humble it truly is) you shouldn\'t need Creatine - but if it helps you, go for it!

Happy training

Steve

Holmes

08-18-2003, 01:29 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
never use liquid stuff

<hr /></blockquote>

Because...

Holmes

Icarus

08-18-2003, 02:15 PM

I heard something to do with it having a lower quantity of actual creatine in it.. and it\'s more expensive.. i think.

\"Of all the white powders in all the world, you had to turn up in my grapefruit juice.\"

\"Don\' mind leetle ol\' meeeeeee\"

Sleep now, sense later.

Steve

Holmes

08-18-2003, 02:47 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

\"Of all the white powders in all the world, you had to turn up in my grapefruit juice.\"

\"Don\' mind leetle ol\' meeeeeee\"

<hr /></blockquote>

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Holmes

Mtnjim

08-19-2003, 08:47 AM

\"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

never use liquid stuff

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because...

Holmes\"

Creatine tends to become unstable in liquid and should be used ASAP once added to liquid. Some manufacturers claim to have overcome the problem, but who knows!

Holmes

08-19-2003, 09:44 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
\"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

never use liquid stuff

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because...

Holmes\"

Creatine tends to become unstable in liquid and should be used ASAP once added to liquid.

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh man...really? I did use the Cell Tech powder for a while and it seemed to work great. But, again, it wreaked mad havoc within... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Holmes

ToBeOrNotToBe

08-19-2003, 09:54 AM

Liquid creatine doesn\'t cause dehydration as the creatine power does (if the one who takes it doesn\'t drink enough water). At least, that\'s what they say...

Jones

08-19-2003, 03:47 PM

There is still controversy over the stability of liquid creatine.

Its possible, from a chemical standpoint. But it would be nice if they told us how they did it.

Holmes

08-19-2003, 04:24 PM

Has creatine been shown to have adverse effects on the liver/kidneys?

Holmes

Jones

08-19-2003, 06:01 PM

There were some rumors that 20g a day for a year could [censored] you up.

But tons of people are on a 5g daily amount, and the popular opinion is that its safe

ToBeOrNotToBe

08-20-2003, 02:11 AM

Creatine is a safe product if taken in a responsible way and in the right dosages...

**DONOTDELETE**

08-20-2003, 08:36 AM

The powder form is what i use lately i have been using a product called Trac which i really find effective. Its time released creatine and agrinine. It gives you muscles a steady stream of creatine throughout the day and requires no loading. It deleveries the insulen spike without all the dextrose of other creatine powders. It works great for me. See this is one thing many creatine users are clueless about. When taking creatine its good to have that insulen spike in your blood stream. Most new creatine products have take major strides and i find them more effective even then creatine alone.

Holmes

08-20-2003, 09:52 AM

Nate Dogg,
I read about the Trac powder. Looks great, but it did mention stimulation of adrenaline. Does it make you jittery or tired or anything?

Holmes

Jones

08-20-2003, 02:38 PM

Certaintly normal creatine can do wonders for some people

I havent tried the time release, but it could be a good product.

Papi_Chulo

08-20-2003, 03:32 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Has creatine been shown to have adverse effects on the liver/kidneys?

Holmes

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, on people with existing liver/kidneys problems.

I agree 100% on supplements being your last choice. First comes nutrition, then your workout/routine. Supplements should be used as a way to give an extra edge in the gym.

Creatine works, period. I have used several times and I do gain water weight, however, I can workout harder and longer. What that does is, since you workout harder, on the long run you\'ll be able to gain more muscle mass. I have been able to add a rep or two on lifts I had normally done for 10 rep max. I had people thinking that after taking creatine they\'ll get huge, it won\'t happen. Nutrition is key.

If you can\'t gain weight then eat more. Need to lose weight? eat less and do more cardio.

Btw, liquid creatine is a waste. Its been proven (in actual research) that stuff is just water.

http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=90 (\"http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=90\")

http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=139 (\"http://www.ast-ss.com/articles/article.asp?AID=139\")NEW UPDATE

***AST writes article that mainly promote their products but this one is a good read on the update on this liquid creatine crap /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Holmes

08-20-2003, 03:42 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I agree 100% on supplements being your last choice. First comes nutrition, then your workout/routine. Supplements should be used as a way to give an extra edge in the gym.

<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Papi. My sentiments exactly. Like I said, when I worked out last (it\'s been a year /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif), I used Cell Tech and EAS Betagen. Both really seemed to help. One thing though: people here have talked about facial puffiness/bloating. I never really noticed it, but if it does happen, does it lessen over time? Or do you have to stop the supp intake for it to go away?

Holmes

Papi_Chulo

08-20-2003, 03:57 PM

Holmes, I forgot to mention that Creatine has not been long enough to know of any possible long term side effects. There have some research from a French source that Creatine caused cancer in animals, but, It was not legit. However, just like everything in life we take risks in everything we do, Every food we eat, every beer we drink, taking a walk aroudn the corner, flying, ect..everything around us has its risks. Just be smart about taking creatine.

About your question, I pissed off all of the water right after I stopped my creatine cycle. I never really noticed my face bloated but people told me I was thicker 1 month into my 2 month cycle.

My advice to you is to drink plenty of water and eat right plus train smart. Just keep taking the recommended dosage.
You should consider taking ALA w/ biotin.

You want supplements? Sure, take your mult. vit.. thats the start /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Holmes

08-22-2003, 07:24 AM

Thanks Papi!

Holmes

ToBeOrNotToBe

08-22-2003, 09:15 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
About your question, I pissed off all of the water right after I stopped my creatine cycle. I never really noticed my face bloated but people told me I was thicker 1 month into my 2 month cycle.

<hr /></blockquote>

Define \"face bloated\"... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Holmes

08-22-2003, 09:54 AM

\"Face Bloated\" is Agatha Christie\'s long-awaited follow-up to \"Mirror Crack\'d.\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif And supplements are involved.

Holmes

manchorito

08-22-2003, 09:34 PM

Buy some NO2 from GNC, that sh*t is awesome. It keeps you perpetually pumped. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif