More than just turn-ons........

[ThE_DeAd_KoBy]

I\'ve done extensive reading on natural human pheromones, and also about the lab made stuff they sell here. I\'ve played around a bit, but I\'ve since given away my pheros to a friend. I can have them back whenever I want... but I don\'t really feel the need for them now.

I had always read that the most important function of body smells is atually to find a genetically suitable partner. Sounds a bit wierd eh? There were some extremely interesting experiments that were conducted on this, and the most interesting was the sweaty shirt experiment. They took several dozens of women, and 10 men... the men were genetically quite different... different races, different blood types..... things like that. They had all these men got a t-shirt good and sweated up, and then they sealed each shirt in a separate box. The women then would smell each shirt... and document which were nice, nuetral, and repulsive. Just watching this experiment was really funny... the reactions were great. In the end, they found they then compared the genetic make-ups. The women found the most repulsive smelling shirts belonged to men with a very similar immune system... and similar genetic code... Thus, they were repulsed by someone who is less likely to produce a healthy child with them! They found the nicest smelling shirts to be significantly more compatible genetic make-up. This really amazed me. They switched the roles, and had Men smelling shirts too... very similar results.

My question is, although I have tried the phero products, and gained acceptable results..... I wonder if I am tampering with that smell mechanism that helps prevent inbreeding. The lady who I am currenty courting does not wear much fragrance because of very delicate skin, yet her natural scent drives me mad.... I have never used phero products within 50 miles of her, yet there is no problem with passion and attraction.

My main concerns, and why I stopped using pheros for now are... If I am attracting ladies with pheros, instead of natural.... am I encouraging a genetic mismatch? Truthfully, I\'m not out to \"hook up\" or seduce anyone... I\'m looking for a wife, and I\'ve found a lovely lady who means the world to me... all pheromone product free.

I\'ve actually talked to my firends about the natural pheromones prevent inbreeding thing... and interestingly enough, one guy admitted one girl he was with, he didn\'t like the smell of her skin... interesting eh?

Admittedly we are in the early stages of lab made pheros, but I am sort of concerned that if it catches on too much, and we get everyone playing in them, we may see a spike in down\'s syndrome, and retardation.....

Just some thoughts...

[belgareth]

A guy I know poses a related question. He travels a lot. He and his wife are in their mid to late forties. When he would travel during the early days of their marraige, she would usually put one of his unwashed shirts on or near the bed claiming it helped her feel more comfortable and relaxed at night. As she has progressed past her main child bearing years, she has stopped wanting the shirt near the bed. At the same time, she has lost sexual interest in him. He is still very interested in sex but she wants no part of it and has even asked for a divorce. The funny part is that they are great friends but no longer lovers.

My questions are: does a woman\'s perception of a pheromone signature change as she grows older? She no longer has as much desire to reproduce but may want more of a companion and protector. What changes in the male\'s signature are related to the womans perception of her partner? From a societal standpoint, how does this affect long term relationships when two partners physically mature at different or similar rates?

[Whitehall]

The same concern about inbreeding could be mounted against birth control pills. They dull the pheromone response in women and make them more likely to be interested in men with similar genotypes.

If you\'ve found someone with an appealing pheromone signature, more power to you. After you\'ve been married a few years and sex has grown stale, try adding pheromones again to spice things up. This is especially useful for women who approach or have passed menopause as copulin production declines.

When a woman decides (maybe unconsciously) that she no longer wants to breed, then the marriage bond can get strained. The solution used to be called \"the wifely duty.\" The Atlantic Monthly had a great article on the problem:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/01/flanagan.htm (\"http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/01/flanagan.htm\")

[akinu]

I agree ThE_DeAd_KoBy.. Pheros MAY cause problems if you are looking for a wife or just a long relationship. Pheros help and (my personal thought) should be used for temporary environments. Best for one night stands.. It is too dangerous for long term thing

[ThE_DeAd_KoBy]

Generally, the more I study the way the body works, the more I hate to alter the natural systems in place. For example, as I approach age 25, I\'ve already experienced a great deal of hair loss, and I\'m even got a few white hairs coming in.... AAAAAHHHHH I\'m to young for this!

However, I\'ve seen hundreds of products out there to treat this, but I don\'t trust one of them. The topical ones like Rogaine, are only effective for 1/3rd of users, and only on one balding pattern... even if it does work for you, you are stuck on it for life... and it may cause heart problems with long term use. Propecia and the alike have the potential side-effect of impotence... after reading side effects of that stuff, I think that it scares you into growing your hair back.

In general, if I can, I try to avoid any and all medicines. I end up on an anti-biotic regimine about once a year when I get really ill, but other than that, I\'m pill free. I think that the human body is designed far more complex than anyone gives it credit for, and instead we look for a quick fix that can upset our internal balance. Steroids are a good example too..... it makes a he-man out of the average man... but since it\'s synthetic testosterone, your body drops production of the real stuff. hooray.

I think the idea of re-introducing pheromones late in a mariage is a nice idea, if it\'s needed.... If everything goes well for me though, I will be married while we are still younger.... and we should have ample years.

I definately agree on the Birth Control Pill issue... I\'ve seen it happen! Big time! Some severely handicapped children... and all durring the courtship, she was on \"The Pill\"... again.... upsetting the balance of a natural system


I guess it\'s just my opinion that the human body it way to complex to be messed with unless necessary.

In the article about \"Wifely Duty\".. I like the comment that \"once everyone is in the canoe, everyone starts happily paddling away\"... he he. Cute. I know that right now they are experimenting with a patch for post-menopausal women who are in a comitted relationship. It\'s for the cases where \"She loves him, but doesn\'t want to make love to him\"....... it will be intesting to see the results of it. The other thing that interested me is that most women peak sexually at age 35... but this number is going down... as is the age at which menstruation starts... Many blame this on drinking milk..... but aren\'t you supposed to drink milk for the calcium? endless cycle... so it goes.

More random thoughts.

[DrSmellThis]

Nice posts.

The issue, of course, is legitimate.

Some random points (I\'m rushed):

The pheros used here are generic, everyone has them, though in different levels throughout life.

The unique enzymes, bacteria, ph, fatty acids, and amino acids on your skin all modify the supplemented pheros to make a personal signature, though \"souped up\".

I agree with Bruce that it is good to take time off of pheromones to let your body reset itself.

It is clear that people in Western corporatized culture who shower excessively have fewer pheromones than nature intended.

The individualistic, alienating, corporate social structure we live in might create too much distance for natural pheromones to properly work. You\'ve got five seconds at the bookstore to make an impression, then you\'ll never see the person again. Mistrust is the general theme of gender relations among strangers in proximity.

[dondk]

I found ThE_DeAd_KoBy postion interesting in several ways.

Female instinct on breeding, as with all animals (and in some way us humans too), the female of the species has a \"sense\". Is it a 6th sense?, some researchers argue yes and some still cannot explain it and others have thier own take on the selection process. Regardless, the females choose the males for breeding, they can sense when a male is \"not right\". So Phero\'s or any other masking agent will not override a females senses. Hence, inbreeding in not usually an option. It only becomes an option when the male selection is restrictive, either by physical, religious, or social reasons. There are countless cases these days in parts of the world where inbreeding still happens, but for the above reasons, and this is without drugs or any masking agents.

I do not see how pheros would change the possibilty of \"natural selection\". It may get you the girl, but it is not going to keep the girl (or the guy). That is individual and nothing on the market is going to change that.

On the issue of assistance with our body\'s.. While I am scientifically trained, I can sort of agree with your position. Although, we are every day taking new things to expand our life span and many we actually do not know that we are. If you look back at the life expectancy of a male and female 50 years ago, 100 years ago and go back every 100 years you will see a gradual increase.

Is the increase all from medicine? NO, it is from research in humans? Not all but some. It is a combination of many factors in our environment. Equally, for each positive enhancement in our environment there will be more than likely a negative (one we may have not found).

Cars are built with more safety features, net result is less deaths from accidents. Increase in life expectancy.

Food.. meats are now irradiated, net result is less bacteria in the food chain, less likely to become sick. Increase in life expectancy.

What is the bottom line, you do not have to take propecia, rogain or any other drugs to regrow hair. The question should be why are you losing your hair? Is it genetic or is it something in our environment that we have not yet found. Genetics is something we have not completely solved, I do believe we will in the future and then you will see even a longer life expectancy.

A poor example is \"bad\" fat, \"bad\" sugar, and all of the other \"bad\" things we are eating these days and increasing our waste line. These are products on the market that while they are \"good\" they have a negative effect. It is not until junior is in 4th grade and topping the scale at 180 lbs that we finally realize what is going on.

Environment... we still have little handle on that, and example (albeit another poor one) would be aerosol\'s.. Used in many applications to enhance our lifes, the downside was it was tearing apart the ozone layer and we did not find it until we had the technology to figure out what was happening.

A GREAT post though and some interesting responses...

[ThE_DeAd_KoBy]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The question should be why are you losing your hair? Is it genetic or is it something in our environment that we have not yet found. Genetics is something we have not completely solved, I do believe we will in the future and then you will see even a longer life expectancy.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

In my case, my hair is genetic... it the standard male balding that comes with you X chromosome... so I can thank my Mom\'s father for that one. so it goes.

[CptKipling]

You\'ve got it all wrong.

The study Koby was (roughly) talking about was a aiming to evaluate the use of a certain set of genes in attraction, the Major Histocompatibility Genes. These genes dictate the structure of the antigens on our T cells, which basically determines your immunity to diseases (different antigens act against different diseases).

Link (\"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&amp;db=PubMed&amp;list_uids=49564&amp; dopt=Abstract&amp;holding=f1000\")

The study showed that people favour partners with as near to opposite Major Histocompatibility Genes as is possible, enabling the widest possible immunities. We evolved this, it’s beneficial, and it also answers the “Why sex?” question, sex allows vastly greater variation.

However, there is also an instinct for us to mate with partners with a similar genetic code, after all, this means that more of our genes will be passed on to our children, because your partner shares them. This creates a conflict of genetic interests.

Our Major Histocompatibility Genes are (somehow) expresses on our skin, as proven by Koby’s study, but so is the rest of our code, in some way or another. So in reality brunettes are attracted to brunettes, and blondes to blonds, unless a blonde and a brunette (or visa versa) who have very different Major Histocompatibility Genes meet.

To go slightly off topic, it has been speculated that blondes are more immediately attractive because it is easier to see imperfections on fair skin.

But the most important point that most of you have missed is that the pheromones we use are gross attraction pheromones, as DST said, we all have them in different amounts, amounts not at all related to our Major Histocompatibility Genes. All that we are doing here is supplementing our natural pheromone levels. It would be impossible and pointless to create a pheromone mix targeting our Major Histocompatibility instincts, because they would only have an affect on a small percentage of the population. Attraction based on our MHG’s is not reliant on levels of pheromones, but merely their presence, making supplementation pointless unless we find a way to supplement them all.

[DrSmellThis]

CK, somebody as smart as you should take the time to learn how to spell \"International Man of Mystery\"!

(See personal data)

[CptKipling]

Oops

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

&lt;fixes it&gt;

What stupid spelling mistake?

lol i also realised i was set to invisible, perhaps i should pay more attention!

[ThE_DeAd_KoBy]

Another thing I am wondering along the same lines... those of us who use lots of pheros are less sensitive to them over time... does this mean that we may have trouble finding our geno-match if we can\'t smell the natural ones?

[CptKipling]

No not at all, for the exact same reasons i stated previously, the pheromones we use have nothing to do with finding a genetically compatible mate.

[xvs]

The pheromones offered here are crude and common: that is to say that they are not specific and are not unique.

The method by which Major Histo-Compatability (MHC) characteristics are transmitted and detected is not yet known. But it almost certainly isn\'t done through simple ratios of androstenone, androstenol, androsterone, etc. There are other chemicals involved in this process.

The pheromones offered here have a different role and a different effect -- they are simple metabolites of sex hormones such as (typically) testosterone.

As such, they send signals having to do with the (supposed) general health, youth and sexual status of the person secreting them.

So when you wear pheromones what you are doing is sending signals saying \"I\'m healthy!\" \"I\'m sexually potent!\" \"I\'m powerful\", etc. depending on the pheromone.

After these messages are received the person receiving them (a woman, for example) will come closer and receive more information from your odor, which will include the MHC information.

Other information about health and genetic status is also received -- there was a recent experiment which showed that more symmetrical men smelled better to women, for example.

But the important point is that these pheromones almost certainly won\'t interfere with bonding based on MHC compatibility, so I don\'t think that is a cause for concern.

[CptKipling]

Thanks xvs, good post.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
But the important point is that these pheromones almost certainly won\'t interfere with bonding based on MHC compatibility, so I don\'t think that is a cause for concern.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You got that right.

[LatentOne]

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.....there was a recent experiment which showed that more symmetrical men smelled better to women, for example.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Okay, in layman\'s terms, what\'s \"more symmetrical\" supposed to mean? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[xxxPantero]

\"Okay, in layman\'s terms, what\'s \"more symmetrical\" supposed to mean? \"

Symmetrical (si\'me\'tri\'kal): being, or consisting of, a state of symmetry

[CptKipling]

You take a photo of your face, cut it in half down the middle, and then mirror one of the sides, so in affect you have an image of your face made up of just one half of it. Then compare this to your original face image to see how symmetrical you are.

[Sagacious1420]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
You take a photo of your face, cut it in half down the middle, and then mirror one of the sides, so in affect you have an image of your face made up of just one half of it. Then compare this to your original face image to see how symmetrical you are.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You know the saying in the movie biz about shooting your good side? It has to do w/ this idea of symmetry or perhaps, more appropriately, the lack thereof. Supposedly everyone(?) has a good side that looks friendly and a bad side that looks not so friendly. Don\'t know if that\'s the best description, but it\'ll have to do for now. You can use the technique above to determine which is which, but you don\'t have to necessarily cut the pic in half. Just take a square or rectangular mirror and reflect one half of your face at a time. That is, use the mirror to bisect your face, one side at a time. I\'ve done this w/ friends before...it\'s pretty cool. You should check it out some time.

[CptKipling]

It\'s very easy using something like photo suite or a similar piece of software, probably even paint.

[LatentOne]

I know what symmetrical means! I just didn\'t know what it meant in context of xvs\'s post regarding the studies/research. I was wondering if \"more symmetrical\" meant facial or physical build of a person.

Thanks for the clarification. I\'ve never really tried the face symmetry thing for study. I\'ll be sure to try both methods of comparison for comparison. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif