Address the hate, then the state. [Archive] - Love-Scent Pheromones Forum

View Full Version : Address the hate, then the state.

seadove

06-09-2003, 09:32 PM

Political Commentary
by Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok

There is a wise old saying attributed to Abraham Lincoln: \"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Answer, four. Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.\"

Sometimes, the simplicity of plain old rational logic is lost in our complicated world. This example of the dog can be very accurately applied to the present round of Middle East peace attempts, called the \"Road Map.\"

Let us rephrase old Abe\'s question. How can the Road Map bring peace between Israel and the so-called Palestinians? Answer, it cannot. Palestinians truly do not want to live in peace with Jews.

You can call the Road Map a way to bring peace, but this is like saying a tail is a leg. Simple, plain logic shows it simply is not true, no matter how hard you want to believe the opposite.

The problem with the so-called Palestinians will not be solved with the creation of a Palestinian state. Such a state could have been created numerous times in the past, with Israeli leaders, ready to surrender almost everything. However, the Palestinians, as Abba Eban used to say, never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Nothing has changed, and nothing will change until we have the courage to address the real issue.

The real issue is that the most virulent forms of nazi-like anti-semitism are still being taught daily in all Palestinian/Moslem schools. This problem has nothing to do with \"land for peace.\" It is not limited to the Middle East. Indeed, in a recent article published in the New York Daily News, such racial hatred against Jews is taught in Islamic private schools right here in the U.S., within English language textbooks.

The problem is not one of \"land for peace.\" The problem is one of hatred. Simply put: we must address the virile hatred of Jews swallowed whole in every corner of the Moslem world today. Fight the hate and kill it. Maybe when Moslems and Palestinians stop hating Jews, they may accept living in peace side by side with us.

As long as the Palestinians and their Moslem brethren continue to hate the Jews, this entire planet will not be big enough to hold us both. Address the hate or we will ultimately have to face a global \"shootout at the OK Corral,\" where only one side will come out alive. Address the hate, or WWIII is unavoidable.

For those of us who truly wish to live in a sincere peace, with all people everywhere, we must realize, accept and act upon the real problem. The problem is not one of land or statehood. Moslems worldwide are not trying to destroy America and Western Civilization because of Israel. The creation of a Palestinian State would not have prevented 9/11; not will it prevent the next horrific terror attack that we do not have a name for yet.

Old Abe already told us a tail is not a leg regardless of what you say. The Road map will not bring peace, regardless of what you say. As sorry as it is, we Middle East watchers are ready to watch the next \"season\" of Middle East sitcom drama, the newest episodes in the continuing story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Like an afternoon Soap Opera, the drama will continue, politicians will continue to talk, new secret schemes will be hatched, and Jews will continue to be murdered. On and on, so the story goes.

The Road Map plan is not worth the paper it is written on. More than this, I believe the politicians in Israel and around the world know this. They will nonetheless pursue the Road Map because it is the easiest path to follow.

It is easier to throw a dog a bone that to train it to behave.

It is easy to call a tail a leg, but it still does not make it so. It is easy to say the Road Map will bring peace. Time will prove that this will not be the case.

Mr. Sharon, like Ehud Barak, Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin, will fail to bring peace to Israel simply because, like his predecessors, he is trying to cure a cancer with a Band-Aid.

The only way to remove a cancer is with serious intervention and surgery. The only way to remove the cancer of Palestinian/ Moslem hatred of Jews and Western Civilization is with serious intervention and surgical strikes to remove its head. Strikes against Afghanistan and Iraq are a beginning, but there is a tremendous amount of work left to be done before the battle against global terrorism fired by the anger of racial and religious hatred is won.

Creating a Palestinian State now will only fire these flames of hatred and world terrorism. Do not call a tail a leg. At best, you are mistaken; at worst, you are a liar. First, address the hate, then the State.

Peace,
Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok
KosherTorah.com - Yeshivat Benei N\'vi\'im

Whitehall

06-10-2003, 07:16 AM

The leadership under Arafat has been fanning the flames of hatred for years. In this he has been supported by neigboring Arab states who welcome conflict there as a way to divert attention from their own misrule.

With the forceable removal of Saddam in Iraq and the positioning of two powerful US military land armies there, other nations are getting the message that the US intends to make fundamental changes in the governments of the region. Hence, external support for Arafat is fading.

Abu Mazan is now in the position to begin to wrest control of the Palestinian Authority from Arafat. I suspect that many \"normal\" Palestinians are tired of the fight and that, given a chance and better leadership, will welcome peace. This is a fundamental assumption about human nature that Americans believe is true.

Arafat and Hamas, et al, will not leave quietly. Some of the membership of Hamas, Hizbollah, etc, will accept Mazan\'s leadership and peace initiatives; some will not. The latter will have to be constrained by use of force.

The historical analogy is Ireland. The IRA faught the British and in 1922 won independence for all except the Protestant Northern counties. The main faction accepted this compromise and the State of Ireland was born. Some more radical IRA people refused the compromise, wanting ALL of the island under one government. The result was the Irish Civil War where the moderates defeated the radicals, bringing peace to the Catholic portions of the island. 3,000 Irishmen died. The radicals later revived their fight in the north but had no support from the State of Ireland and depended on foreign support, largely from ex-pats in the US.

So, by this model, Mazan will have to surpress the radical factions as the US blocks outside interference.

The goal is a separate, moderate Palestinian state. It will receive substantial foreign support so that the Palestinians have a chance to build a peaceful, prosperous life for themselves. Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran will interfer at their own peril.

Sharon is backing Bush on this - this is wise since Bush has shown he is a man of action and a man of his word. Hard-line Jewish groups that oppose this plan do so at their own peril too.

franki

06-10-2003, 08:27 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Mr. Sharon, like Ehud Barak, Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin, will fail to bring peace to Israel simply because, like his predecessors, he is trying to cure a cancer with a Band-Aid.

<hr /></blockquote>

Mr. Sharon is a right-wing politician. This means he has to have less fear for the next election when trying to make peace with the Palestinians, because the left-wing politicians traditionally also want \"peace\".

Other than that, he never lost a fight in his long career as a general (and a politician). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

The REAL question is: Does he want peace or is he playing a game just to satisfy Bush and the international opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Elana

06-10-2003, 08:33 AM

As long as Sharon put the clause in the plan to says nothing will be done until Hamas, Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad stop the terrorism, Sharon could agree to just about anything. Hell.....dismantal all of the setlements, maybe even agree to give every Palestinian family $100,000.00.

Why not? They are incapable of stopping their terrorist ways. I am afraid that the \"average\" Palestinian citizen still supports the use of suicide bombs as a fair cause. If they had their way, Abu Mazan would be dead.

I give Bush such credit for his strong stance against terrorism, but unfortunately, this will not work.

G-d I hope that I am wrong.

Elana

06-10-2003, 08:34 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The REAL question is: Does he want peace or is he playing a game just to satisfy Bush and the international opinion.

<hr /></blockquote>

My guess is he is a little tired of watching his citizens get blown up.

franki

06-10-2003, 08:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The REAL question is: Does he want peace or is he playing a game just to satisfy Bush and the international opinion.

<hr /></blockquote>

My guess is he is a little tired of watching his citizen get blown up.

<hr /></blockquote>

But what how does he see the future of the Middle-East? With a palestinian State? Like the current Situation? Does he want to get rid of the Palestinians forever (deportation)? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Elana

06-10-2003, 08:40 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But what does he want? A palestinian State? The current Situation? The Deportation of Palestiniansto other countries?

<hr /></blockquote>

Sharon has never once suggested the deportation of Palestinians. This is a give and take. The terrorist groups only want to take. They don\'t want to share Israel. They want all of it. Maybe Sharon doesn\'t \"want\" a Palestinian state. I would be lieing if I said that I did. But.......for all of these people to live in peace, it must be done, but not at blood shed of more Israelis. Either they stop the terror, or everyone continues to suffer.

franki

06-10-2003, 09:01 AM

Like Whitehall says, the historical analogy is Ireland. Now, don\'t tell me catholics and/or protestants will always be out to fight each other because of their religion.

The same with the muslems (and the Jews) I guess. The HUGE problem is the way most moslem people are raised and educated. This is not only a problem in the Middle-East, but also in Europe. The problem is children are taught to hate (and in the Middle-East) to kill. That is where islamic religion needs to calm down, where schools and parents need to change. But why wouldn\'t they be able to change? The differences between protestants and catholics were just as bad as they are now between Jews and Palestinians/Muslems.

Most protestants and catholics in the world leave peacefully together now, so do most christians and jews, so there is some hope eventually the same will happen to western people (jews, christians) and muslimic people..

I heard they are building a new kind of Berlin Wall between Israeli and Palestinian people. Do not worry, the original Berlin Wall has been teared down eventually too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Elana

06-10-2003, 09:03 AM

As long as Arab governments are providing children text books that tell them to kill all Jews and Westerners.....I don\'t think that they are capable of having their own state. I believe it would be anarchy. I don\'t think it is fair to make any democratic nation live amongst an out of control society.

Elana

06-10-2003, 09:04 AM

I posted the same time you did. It seems that I repeated one of your points.

Elana

06-10-2003, 09:05 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Do not worry, the original Berlin Wall has been teared down eventually too!

<hr /></blockquote>

I doubt it will be in my lifetime.

franki

06-10-2003, 09:06 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I posted the same time you did. It seems that I repeated one of your points.

<hr /></blockquote>

No wonder, because young palestinians/arabs that are taught to hate Jews (and Christians) are the biggest problem.

**DONOTDELETE**

06-10-2003, 09:50 AM

\"Now, don\'t tell me catholics and/or protestants will always be out to fight each other because of their religion.

The same with the muslems (and the Jews) I guess. The HUGE problem is the way most moslem people are raised and educated. This is not only a problem in the Middle-East, but also in Europe. The problem is children are taught to hate (and in the Middle-East) to kill. That is where islamic religion needs to calm down, where schools and parents need to change. But why wouldn\'t they be able to change? The differences between protestants and catholics were just as bad as they are now between Jews and Palestinians/Muslems.\"

Protestants and Catholics in Ireland will hate each other as long as there are Protestants and Catholics, because each believes its version of Christianity is the only true version, so that the other is promulgating notions that will endanger the eternal lives of other people.

Similarly with folks in the Middle East. There can be no peace because these people are not focused on what is going on in the corporeal world - if they were, they would not be raising their children to be suicide bombers. They are concerned about the salvation of their souls and the souls of others. They sincerely and fanatically believe that their way is the only way, and that people of other faiths are under evil influence and must be eradicated else they continue to spread their wrong doctrine and corrupt more people, thus condemning their souls.

franki

06-10-2003, 09:54 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Protestants and Catholics in Ireland will hate each other as long as there are Protestants and Catholics, because each believes its version of Christianity is the only true version, so that the other is promulgating notions that will endanger the eternal lives of other people.

<hr /></blockquote>

Catholic and protestant people in the States (or in Germany or in England or wherever) don\'t fight each other. They did in the past (at least in Europe), but don\'t do so now. Why wouldn\'t the same happen to Ireland??

Whitehall

06-10-2003, 10:11 AM

When the Palestinians have their own state under Mazan with the foreign aid rolling and their standard of living going up, and the schools and the press no longer in the hands of radicals, the impetus for the average Palestinian to send their kids as suicide bombers will disappear. It may take a generation but that\'s what will happen.

Religon may still be a cause for disagreement, but with separate states, they won\'t have to get in each others\' faces about it except, perhaps in Jeruseleum, where accommodations will have to be made.

Andy

06-10-2003, 10:25 AM

@Franki

I guess this roots in the historical background. The participation of the Anglo-Norman nobility from the coastal Pale in the War of the Roses greatly impaired English strength in Ireland. When Henry VII became king of England, he left Gerald Fitzgerald, 8th earl of Kildare (d. 1513), as viceroy of Ireland, although Kildare belonged to the Yorkist party. The assistance rendered by Kildare to the Yorkist pretenders, however, finally compelled the king to replace him in 1494 with the English soldier and diplomat Sir Edward Poynings (1459-1521). Poynings represented the purely English interest, as distinct from the Anglo-Norman interest, which up to that time had prevailed in Ireland. He at once summoned the Parliament of Drogheda, which enacted legislation providing for the defence of the Pale and the reduction of the power of the Anglo-Irish lords. The nobility was forbidden to oppress the inferior baronage, to make exactions upon the tenantry, or to assemble their armed retainers; and the Statute of Kilkenny, which compelled the English and Irish to live apart and prohibited Irish law and customs in the Pale, was confirmed. All state offices, including the judgeships, were filled by the English king instead of by the viceroys, and the entire body of English law was declared to hold for the Pale. Most important of all was the so-called Poynings Law, which made the Irish Parliament dependent on the English king by providing that all proposed legislation should first be announced to the king and meet with his approval, after which he would issue the license to hold Parliament.

The religious changes under King Edward VI and Queen Mary I had little effect on Ireland. Although Mary was herself a Roman Catholic, she was the first to begin the colonisation of Ireland by English settlers. The Irish people of Kings and Queens Company were driven out and their lands given to English colonists. Queen Elizabeth I at first followed her father\'s policy of conciliating the Irish chieftains, but the rebellion of the Ulster chieftain Shane O\'Neill (1530?-67) caused her policy to become more severe; an act was passed dividing all Ireland into counties, and the commissioners of justice were invested with military powers, which they used in arbitrary fashion. The religious wars of Elizabeth were attended by rebellions of the Irish Roman Catholics. James Fitzgerald, 16th earl of Desmond (1570?-1601), a member of the great house of Geraldine, which ruled over the larger part of Munster, was defeated after a long struggle. The Irish soldier Hugh O\'Neill, 3d baron of Dungannon, called by the English the earl of Tyrone, annihilated an English army on the Blackwater and also defeated Robert Devereux, 2d earl of Essex, whom Elizabeth had sent against him. About 1603, however, O\'Neill was compelled to submit to the English. During the war the greatest cruelty and treachery were practised on both sides. In order to destroy Irish resistance, the English devastated villages, crops, and cattle, putting many people to death. The greater part of Munster and Ulster was laid desolate, and more inhabitants died from hunger than from war.

You see ... the religious hassle is only kinda side effect that has it\'s origin in political decisions.

This might be of interest too ....

A \"Perverse and Ill-Fated People\" (\"http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journals/EH/EH38/Lengel.html\")

Hope that helps ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

franki

06-10-2003, 10:29 AM

Every \"religious\" struggle like this is also a political one, because is it all about power. There are hundreds of examples of conflicts like the irish one, that have been (somewhat) solved.

Andy

06-10-2003, 10:36 AM

Sure ... it\'s always a smart leader that utilizes religion to fool his stupid followers by tricking them into doin\' the stuff he wants them to do. Religion is the best medium to achieve power the easy way.

**DONOTDELETE**

06-10-2003, 10:47 AM

You\'re speaking from a certain distance, and I\'m sure it\'s true - but if you were to ask the man in the street, I believe you would get fervently held beliefs that will take some generations if ever to eradicate. Unfortunately.

Andy

06-10-2003, 11:07 AM

That\'s right .. religious fundamentalism is a greater threat to mankind than SARS, HIV and Cancer together.

Elana

06-10-2003, 11:24 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
That\'s right .. religious fundamentalism is a greater thread to mankind than SARS, HIV and Cancer together.

<hr /></blockquote>

That\'s correct.

Andy

06-10-2003, 11:30 AM

What really turns me mad is the fact that most hardcore religious people are so damn stupid and limited in their view. All this dogmatic babbling of nonsense that is even reflected wrong and completely missunderstood.

Elana

06-10-2003, 11:34 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
What really turns me mad is the fact that most hardcore religious people are so damn stupid and limited in their view. All this dogmatic babbling of nonsense that is even reflected wrong and completely missunderstood.

<hr /></blockquote>

For the most part I agree with you, but the theory of martyrs in the Islamic religion is unfortunately understood correctly as told in the Koran.

Flame away

franki

06-10-2003, 11:46 AM

I am not going to flame you. From what I have read about it, islamic religion as it is now has a rather aggressive character ... It is also the youngest of the three big monotheistic religions (Christian, Jewish, Islamic). I guess it needs a lot of maturing, before it accepts other religions the way it should.

Andy

06-10-2003, 12:05 PM

The problem is that the people that founded the Islam (the guys around prophet Muhammad, that is) have been the ones that tried to instrumentalize religion to achieve power. He claimed that an Angel told him that he\'d be choosen to be the messenger of god around the age of fourty. I personally think he invented this \"story\" because he needed more motivated men to fulfill his war plans (Muhammad happened to be a warrior himself). But that\'s my own impression. The interesting thing is that the Muslims believe in Jesus, but only as a messenger and not as the son of god. He\'s seen as the preceded prophet of god. There comes one thing to my mind ... is god really that confused that he has to send a different prophet that soon because he changed his plans?

Elana

06-10-2003, 12:11 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
is god really that confused that he has to send a different prophet that soon because he changed his plans?

<hr /></blockquote> He should have sent Soup Boy

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 12:15 PM

Yes that was very odd and seems too soon if it was \"true\".

koolking1

06-10-2003, 12:23 PM

I won\'t pretend to understand the dynamics of the whole situation, I just wish they would learn to live together peacefully so we can bring our troops home. We, too, are suffering because we spend so much f...ing money, I want the \"peace dividend\" that we should have got after the end of the cold war.

Sexyredhead

06-10-2003, 12:26 PM

Throughout the old testament there was prophet after prophet. In the Christian religion, even after Jesus died, Peter continued to spread the word of Christ to the people--in essence a prophet.

As for Muhammed, who\'s to say that God knew that the Arab people were so different and removed from the rest of His people that He needed to send a different prophet to them? I don\'t know. I also know there are a lot of false prophets out there that people follow in droves, which was prophesized a long time ago.

I\'m not up on God\'s timing, but the Bible says there will be peace in the Middle East--for a little while.

Elana

06-10-2003, 12:26 PM

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not keeping the troops away. This has been going on for years.

I hope the troops come home safe and soon too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 12:55 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I won\'t pretend to understand the dynamics of the whole situation, I just wish they would learn to live together peacefully so we can bring our troops home. We, too, are suffering because we spend so much f...ing money, I want the \"peace dividend\" that we should have got after the end of the cold war.

<hr /></blockquote>

How can you expect these people to just shake hands and say all right. Well racism and injustice did not end after the U.S\'s Civil War, people are slower then the times and laws, it\'s sad and very annoying. How can we expect these people to live together peacefully when we can\'t?

**DONOTDELETE**

06-10-2003, 12:59 PM

That\'s funny. I thought about our civil war, too.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 01:02 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
That\'s funny. I thought about our civil war, too.

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh yeah, you see FTR even in dislike you are connected to me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. I think it\'s practically unreasonable to expect two different people with so much bad past and ignorance to just up and hug and kiss. For the most part we are not involved in that situation we don\'t have our hearts and minds in it, we are standing on the outside looking in. We may think it\'s all stupid what is going on (a lot is) but there is a reason for everything, not always a wise one.

**DONOTDELETE**

06-10-2003, 01:11 PM

Nah, man, I\'m too ugly to be connected to you or anybody else. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

That stuff doesn\'t die out even over generations and generations ... and we quit physically maiming and killing each other as soon as the war was over.

And folks who think they know what God is/was thinking scare me in general.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 01:42 PM

Nah, man, I\'m too ugly to be connected to you or anybody else./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
===================
Oh come on honey sista girl why would you say such a thing.

Whitehall

06-10-2003, 01:59 PM

The Founding Fathers thought that a civil society could only be formed where the people had a common religion to provide morals and ethics for daily life. They saw that NO society had succeeded without a religous base.

I\'m still hard pressed to name a society that was successful in the long term without a religion. The Communist experiment has certainly proven a failure.

This concerns me since I follow no religion and oppose fundamentalist involvement in US governments. What is to replace it?

The religious impulse has evolved in man for some purpose. Apparently, it offers some evolutionary advantage since few lack it. Can we handle a society made of people with an innate religious impulse but no religion?

Mtnjim

06-10-2003, 03:06 PM

\"The religious impulse has evolved in man for some purpose. Apparently, it offers some evolutionary advantage since few lack it.\"

Man discovered the unknown and the \"other\" varily he feared them. And thus did man create god(s) onto his own image and likeness.
jim 1:30

**DONOTDELETE**

06-10-2003, 03:17 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The Founding Fathers thought that a civil society could only be formed where the people had a common religion to provide morals and ethics for daily life. They saw that NO society had succeeded without a religous base.

I\'m still hard pressed to name a society that was successful in the long term without a religion. The Communist experiment has certainly proven a failure.

This concerns me since I follow no religion and oppose fundamentalist involvement in US governments. What is to replace it?

The religious impulse has evolved in man for some purpose. Apparently, it offers some evolutionary advantage since few lack it. Can we handle a society made of people with an innate religious impulse but no religion?

<hr /></blockquote>

There\'s secular humanism, but the religious fundamentalists don\'t think that\'s good enough.

Religion seems a little bit like laws. We\'re supposed to not do certain things because they\'re against the law or because they\'re against our religion, but ... we do them any damn way. So what\'s the point?

Not being flip, I just don\'t see that religion helps anything.

**DONOTDELETE**

06-10-2003, 03:18 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Nah, man, I\'m too ugly to be connected to you or anybody else./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
===================
Oh come on honey sista girl why would you say such a thing.

<hr /></blockquote>

Why would you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 03:53 PM

\"The religious impulse has evolved in man for some purpose. Apparently, it offers some evolutionary advantage since few lack it.\"
=====================

With man and woman\'s given intelligence, it came with the duty or task to understand one\'s world and surroundings afterall that is the basis of intelligence. Man could not at it\'s beginning and even now totally explain the world around him and just why it is what it is. Therefore a greater being was the most logical means of explanation. It does have it\'s positive effects as many aspects of our thinking do. We have importance, a guide, a belief, but just as good as that sounds it can turn sour, it\'s a very thin line eh?

koolking1

06-10-2003, 04:09 PM

\"How can you expect these people to just shake hands and say all right. Well racism and injustice did not end after the U.S\'s Civil War, people are slower then the times and laws, it\'s sad and very annoying. How can we expect these people to live together peacefully when we can\'t?\"

Ahem, excuse me, but WHO was sending us billions and billions of dollars to end our problems - just about all we ever got was criticism, then and now - in spite of a lack of tremendous foreign aid we have less problems than most of the world. I don\'t really like us spending this kind of money if what you say is true, do you? Besides, we DO live relatively peacefully together. I certainly can and do expect the warring parties to shake hands and live in peace.

Elana

06-10-2003, 04:11 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Ahem, excuse me, but WHO was sending us billions and billions of dollars to end our problems - just about all we ever got was criticism,

<hr /></blockquote>

Can you all be specific who you are talking about? Are you talking about Israel, Iraq, the Palestinians.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 04:12 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Ahem, excuse me, but WHO was sending us billions and billions of dollars to end our problems - just about all we ever got was criticism, then and now - in spite of a lack of tremendous foreign aid we have less problems than most of the world. I don\'t really like us spending this kind of money if what you say is true, do you? Besides, we DO live relatively peacefully together. I certainly can and do expect the warring parties to shake hands and live in peace.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don\'t believe money is or ever has quelled a situation quite like this.

koolking1

06-10-2003, 04:18 PM

I guess you get my point then - I said I didn\'t really understand the Palestinian-Israeli conflict but that I\'d like to see them end it so we CAN stop sending all this money - but, as we both know, the money is just being mostly wasted on more weapons and such. ELANA, by \"us\" I mean the USA.

Elana

06-10-2003, 04:19 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
just about all we ever got was criticism,

<hr /></blockquote>

From the Israelis? How so?

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 04:23 PM

I don\'t hear of too many Jewish terrorist. In fact I don\'t think I have ever heard of one. I believe it is the palestinians who have a problem and a hatred for US involvment. I think that\'s a big reason why we are close to #1 on their $hit list.

koolking1

06-10-2003, 04:25 PM

Elana, We do get some criticism from Israel but not a whole lot. What I meant was the criticism the USA gets from many other sources over many many years about the way we are.

koolking1

06-10-2003, 04:29 PM

Some say that Sharon is a terrorist. After today\'s \"event\" they may gain some ground in the propaganda war.

Elana

06-10-2003, 04:30 PM

For the most part, Israeli\'s love America. They are so grateful for the support of one democratic nation to another. They are most certainly not ungrateful.

Elana

06-10-2003, 04:31 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Some say that Sharon is a terrorist. After today\'s \"event\" they may gain some ground in the propaganda war.

<hr /></blockquote>

Oh how horrible. We wounded the leader of Hamas. Big difference. IDF goes after terrorists, Hamas goes after Israeli kids on a school bus.

koolking1

06-10-2003, 05:59 PM

Like I said, I would just like to see them ALL stop it.

koolking1

06-10-2003, 06:03 PM

\"Bush through his spokesman criticized Israel’s failed attempt Tuesday to assassinate Palestinian Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi, concerned strike will undermine Palestinian authorities’ efforts to end terror attacks.
DEBKAfile: US President complains privately Sharon \"sandbagged\" him by attempted assassination. Sharon says terror leaders will be targeted as long as Palestinian terrorist attacks go on and denies promising to hold off.\"

Elana

06-10-2003, 06:23 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Rantisi, a high-profile political leader of the Islamic militant group that claimed it participated in the killing of four Israeli soldiers on Sunday, was wounded and hospitalized. His bodyguard and a bystander were killed.

<hr /></blockquote>

The only thing that Israel should be sorry for is that they didn\'t kill the monster.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 06:44 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Like I said, I would just like to see them ALL stop it.

<hr /></blockquote>

That\'s how I may have felt before I spoke to Elana, you have to realize just how negative the situation is, and how there can not be peace until BOTH sides decide to call it quits. I used to think \"Oh come on Elana\" but it\'s very accurate Palestinians in general do not want peace and are not searching for peace at all, so Israelis (misspelling?) are left with at this time with an almost unsolvable problem.

Who knows what the future brings, but I cannot foresee utopia around the corner, that\'s what\'s sad.

Elana

06-10-2003, 07:01 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
it\'s very accurate Palestinians in general do not want peace and are not searching for peace at all

<hr /></blockquote>

I never like to put all people into a category. It would be unfair to say that all Palestinians don\'t want peace, but as long as over 80% support Hamas and other terrorist groups, achieving peace with Israel will be impossible.

tallmacky

06-11-2003, 02:57 AM

Sorry about that I forgot my (side comment). That was an over generalization.

Elana

06-11-2003, 06:59 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
- Unknown number of fatalities in suicide bombing of bus in Jerusalem, Israeli media report.

<hr /></blockquote>

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

upsidedown

06-11-2003, 07:02 AM

Fox News is just now reporting at least 50 hurt, 10 dead.

Elana

06-11-2003, 07:11 AM

Now 16 dead. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
The number is going to keep rising.

Whitehall

06-11-2003, 07:36 AM

If we carry on with the Irish Civil War analogue, perhaps we pushed Abu Mazan too far too fast - before he had solidified the support of moderates. I suspect that he welcomes the Israeli attack on the Hamas leader although he may not say so to his Palestinian public.

Obviously, there will be more deaths on both sides before peace comes to the area. One thing we can count on with Bush is that he\'s not a quiter. He may \"deviate\" from the \"Road Map\" but he knows what he has to do. Let\'s hope Sharon does too. Specifically, we have to support Abu Mazan and the moderates so that they don\'t give up and don\'t lose to the radicals.

EXIT63

06-12-2003, 03:24 AM

I think eventually the Jews will lose. Ya know why? Because they are going to be overrun by sheer numbers of Arabs. They\'re breeding like cockroaches. And raised to hate. And taught to sacrifice themselves to kill Jews. And Americans. Human life means nothing to them.

You want a plan for peace. I\'ll give you a plan for peace. It\'s called THE EXIT 63 MANDATORY STERILIZATION PLAN. Works wonders.

Elana

06-12-2003, 04:30 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And raised to hate. And taught to sacrifice themselves to kill Jews. And Americans. Human life means nothing to them.

<hr /></blockquote>

You will probably get flamed for this, but I would love to see someone try to debate this.

EXIT63

06-12-2003, 04:37 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And raised to hate. And taught to sacrifice themselves to kill Jews. And Americans. Human life means nothing to them.

<hr /></blockquote>

You will probably get flamed for this, but I would love to see someone try to debate this.

<hr /></blockquote>

Screw em.

Elana

06-12-2003, 04:40 AM

My point is, it really isn\'t debatable.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.and screw em! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana

06-12-2003, 04:45 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I think eventually the Jews will lose.

<hr /></blockquote>

Never

EXIT63

06-12-2003, 04:50 AM

I\'m a poet and I didn\'t know it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana

06-12-2003, 06:12 AM

Check this out, poet.

http://www.conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html (\"http://www.conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html\")

tallmacky

06-12-2003, 11:20 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
And raised to hate. And taught to sacrifice themselves to kill Jews. And Americans. Human life means nothing to them.

<hr /></blockquote>

It\'s hard to say that human life means nothing to them, a bit of over generalizations through-out what you said.

Elana

06-12-2003, 11:25 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It\'s hard to say that human life means nothing to them, a bit of over generalizations through-out what you said.

<hr /></blockquote>

Be specific....what don\'t you agree with about that? Is it not true that many Mothers are raising their children to be human bombs? Are they not taught that Jihad is necessary against all Jews and non Muslims? Are young children not taught to kill Jews and westerners?

tallmacky

06-12-2003, 11:31 AM

Be specific....what don\'t you agree with about that? Is it not true that many Mothers are raising their children to be human bombs? Are they not taught that Jihad is necessary against all Jews and non Muslims? Are young children not taught to kill Jews and westerners?
================

Exit said \"Arabs\" and I find it hard to believe that all 1 billion (number is close) Arabs are being raised in this fashion, I didn\'t hear him say \"Palestinian\". When we are talking about two different groups sometimes the blame and such leaks to other groups etc....

Elana

06-12-2003, 11:36 AM

franki

06-12-2003, 11:40 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
TM- I guess you don\'t remember that huge marathon that raised millions upon millions of dollars for the families of suicide bombers. Where did that take place? Oh yeah...Saudi. What about Sadam giving $15,000 per family for each suicide bomber. I could go on if you would like.

<hr /></blockquote>

Maybe what he means is that you are over-emphasizing this part of the story. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

tallmacky

06-12-2003, 11:41 AM

TM- I guess you don\'t remember that huge marathon that raised millions upon millions of dollars for the families of suicide bombers. Where did that take place? Oh yeah...Saudi. What about Sadam giving $15,000 per family for each suicide bomber. I could go on if you would like.
=============
Corrupt governments and Dictators, if you can give me an explanation for 1 billion people\'s viewpoints, I don\'t disagree with what you are saying.....I just thought it was an overgeneralization and it obviously has to be.

Elana

06-12-2003, 11:41 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Maybe what he means is that you are over-emphasizing this part of the story.

<hr /></blockquote> Yeah, you are right. It\'s just not that big of a deal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Elana

06-12-2003, 11:43 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Corrupt governments and Dictators, if you can give me an explanation for 1 billion people\'s viewpoints, I don\'t disagree with what you are saying.....I just thought it was an overgeneralization and it obviously has to be.

<hr /></blockquote>

Stop your BS. There is no way in hell that I would ever say that \"all\" of any one race or religion thinks a certain way. I am talking about the world we live in today and an overwhelming Arab mentality.

tallmacky

06-12-2003, 11:46 AM

Elana, this issue is closest to you than anyone else here. You have a strong opinion on one side of the argument. Do I think you are wrong? No, but if I hear something that sounds like spin or misrepresentation I am going to speak on it, I am not looking for a fight (why would I). When someone says things like \"they are breeding like cockroaches\", \"Sterlization\", \"they all want to kill Jews\" I can\'t believe it on merit alone. I know how you would react if someone was to say one dimensional things like that. \"Jews terrorize the palestinians with their brute military force\". You would be pissed to hear something like that.

tallmacky

06-12-2003, 11:47 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Stop your BS. There is no way in hell that I would ever say that \"all\" of any one race or religion thinks a certain way. I am talking about the world we live in today and an overwhelming Arab mentality.

<hr /></blockquote>
=======================

Why are you even fighting me on this, I was not initially replying to your post? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Whitehall

06-13-2003, 09:01 AM

An interesting question to me is how much outside support can Abu Mazan use and how much does he need.

The Israelis are helping in some sense by knocking off prominent Hamas leaders who both terrorize Israel and challenge Mazan. How far can Israel go before it becomes counterproductive to Abu Mazan\'s struggle for power within Palestine?

Watcher

06-17-2003, 02:05 AM

Thats a point, if all the terror leaders are gone, hamas will be weakened to an extent. Abu Mazan will need support from non-violent factions if the peace process would go ahead. Its a patchwork of factions etc in the middle east. What if the british had have knocked off top IRA leaders during the past 30 years, would jerry adams be alive still and lead the peace push. The same with ETA in spain. The power struggle is really with arafat. It will take at least another 20 years before a peace deal will stick, in the meantime more publicity and carry on will go on but with no resolution,.

Whitehall

06-17-2003, 06:32 AM

So Hamas refused to go along with Abu Mazen and struck at the Israelis.

The result is that Bush has given Sharon the green light to take Hamas out as has Abu Mazen. If you\'re not a friend to the peace process than watch out!