Biblical History [Archive] - Love-Scent Pheromones Forum

seadove

06-09-2003, 04:58 AM

Interesting facts.

Israel is the nation most often mentioned in the Bible.

But, do you know which nation is second? It is Iraq! However, that is not the name that is used in the Bible. The names used in the Bible are Babylon, Land of Shinar, and Mesopotamia. The word Mesopotamia means between the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The name \"Iraq\" means country with deep roots. Indeed, Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a very significant country in the Bible.

Here\'s why:

Eden was in Iraq -- Genesis 2:10-14

Adam and Eve were created in Iraq -- Genesis 2:7-8

Satan made his first recorded appearance in Iraq -- Genesis 3:1-6

Nimrod established Babylon and the Tower of Babel was built in Iraq -- Genesis 10: 8-9 7 and 11:1-4

The confusion of the languages took place in Iraq -- Genesis 11:5-11

Abraham came from a city in Iraq -- Genesis 11:31 and Acts 7:2-4

Isaac\'s bride came from Iraq -- Genesis 24:3-4 and 10

Jacob Spent 20 years in Iraq -- Genesis 27:42-45 and 31:38

The first world Empire was in Iraq -- Daniel 1:1-2 and 2:36-38

The greatest revival in history was in a city in Iraq -- Jonah 3

The events of the book of Esther took place in Iraq -- Esther

The book of Nahum was a prophecy against a city in Iraq -- Nahum

The book of Revelation has prophecies against Babylon, which was the old name for the nation of Iraq
-- Revelation 17 and 18

Watcher

06-09-2003, 12:31 PM

Like any good fairytale the bible has had thousands of years to be manipulated by each generation. Have some changes made, be re-written etc etc. Id take what is said in the bible as it is, a mass control over the masses by organised religion for the purpose of maintaining society morals and cocehsiveness, and within the catholic church to allow peadaphilles to work up until now without any checks into these activties.

fizzymcgee

06-09-2003, 12:57 PM

you can\'t blame the bible (or any religion) for the stupidity and/or corruption of its followers. I don\'t take most of the bible literally, but I think every word is true and good in it\'s own way. As far as the history mentioned, I really don\'t see why any of it should not be true. However, having only read bits and pieces (which admittedly makes me FAR from qualified to comment as i am), I might have missed parts that could use such historical reference to create a sense of superiority in a particular race. Such things may have been added over time to abuse the power of the bible for personal gain. However, I have yet to read a passage, or hear one cited, that led me to believe i was being manipulated by the bible\'s message. Of course that isn\'t to say people don\'t USE the power of the bible to manipulate others....again that isn\'t really the fault of the bible.

Sexyredhead

06-09-2003, 01:10 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Like any good fairytale the bible has had thousands of years to be manipulated by each generation. Have some changes made, be re-written etc etc. Id take what is said in the bible as it is, a mass control over the masses by organised religion for the purpose of maintaining society morals and cocehsiveness, and within the catholic church to allow peadaphilles to work up until now without any checks into these activties.

<hr /></blockquote>

Ya know, all I can say is I\'m sorry you feel that way. I can\'t argue with you because you\'re never going to see my side of the argument.
All I know is there is a God, the one who gave us the Bible through people He chose to write His words. For the most part its finished form has not been changed through the ages, other than translated.

As for the Catholic Church, well, they have troubles, and they\'ve done a lot of bad things that aren\'t excusable. But the Catholic church is not the sole form of Christianity. Many bad people have used it to manipulate others unfortunately.

Can I prove to you that there\'s a God? No. No argument I give will be good enough for someone who doesn\'t want to see. But I know. I can feel it in my gut. I know it in my heart. I can see it in everything. I\'ve never doubted it in my life. You can look down your nose at me, think of me as one of the \"controlled masses\", whatever. It doesn\'t matter to me.

So again, I\'m sorry you feel that way.

pelotudo

06-09-2003, 01:49 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Satan made his first recorded appearance in Iraq -- Genesis 3:1-6

<hr /></blockquote>

Yup, this is true...cuz he\'s still there.

.
.
.
.
.

This has nothing to do with my political or religious point of view, as I can see a flame war coming from that statement, I was just making a funny supporting our current President Bush and his political views regarding Saddam Hussien (sp?)

-Jon

tallmacky

06-09-2003, 02:53 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
All I know is there is a God, the one who gave us the Bible through people He chose to write His words. For the most part its finished form has not been changed through the ages, other than translated.

<hr /></blockquote>

What if you did not grow up in a religious setting? Would you have that gut feeling that there is a God? What if you grew up in a foreign country or with a different religion is that not God? I am not starting a argument with you because there isn\'t one to fathem, what I am saying is as you have an opinion so do I. To me calling out one religion and saying this and that off it, when it has youth and manipulation in it seems a bit egotistical and self centered (not directed towards you).

fizzymcgee

06-09-2003, 05:41 PM

i totally agree with you, tallmacky. actaully i must say i agree with the past few posts.

anyways... i think you could have a feeling that there is something greater to believe in. It\'s important to recognize whether you are believing in something you have discovered on your own, or if you are believing something you were told at some point in your life. Faith in God is often faith in some person who told you about God in the first place. On the other hand, I wouldn\'t say people only believe in God because they are told to. If you lived a secluded enough life i\'m sure it\'s possible you would still believe in SOMETHING... I think the details are unimportant. Then you find some religion and you\'re like \"YEAH!...i totally feel this way.\" It doesn\'t have to mean you are doing or believing what you\'re told.

A lot of this comes down to how picky you want to be. You can tear any belief or idea apart if you really want to. That\'s why I think it\'s a bad idea to stress over it so much. The belief itself really isn\'t so important, but its consequences ceratinly are. This is how I feel anyway. I mean, YOU can feel that YOUR beliefs are important, but it\'s not worth taking down those of others if they really don\'t harm you in any way.

fizzymcgee

06-09-2003, 05:43 PM

i\'d just like to add:

thank you seadove, that actually was a very interesting post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

seadove

06-09-2003, 08:51 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Tallmacky: To me calling out one religion and saying this and that off it, when it has youth and manipulation in it seems a bit egotistical and self centered (not directed towards you).

<hr /></blockquote>

I am assuming here that it is really Jason writing this and nobody else.

There are times when people, believers, semi believers or athiests, doubt the very existance of G-d.In good and healthy periods of their lives they may even ignore Him.

But, just as soon as trouble hit their lives, be it sickness, fighting a possible death or other disasters, they suddenly \"discover\" G-d, and they raise their arms toward Him and request salvation.

So you see? It is really a matter of in what situation you are at the present moment.

I personally am refraining from being so philosophical about Him and fully accept His existance.

DaVinciKittie

06-09-2003, 10:17 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But, just as soon as trouble hit their lives, be it sickness, fighting a possible death or other disasters, they suddenly \"discover\" G-d, and they raise their arms toward Him and request salvation.

<hr /></blockquote>

No offense intended, Seadove, and I\'m certainly not trying to spark a debate here, but I don\'t completely agree with that statement. All it says to me is that those people have weak convictions and maybe a lack of will or drive. People need to believe that they are part of something bigger than themselves, some grand scheme that takes into account all the negativity in this world and neatly explains it away (just MHO there). So, it seems to me that those people who \"find God\" at the first sign of trouble either 1)never really believed He didn\'t exist in the first place (used atheism as an excuse for disregarding the principles taught by their chosen religion/denomination) or 2)use their circumstances to circumnavigate taking responsibility for the situation in which they find themselves and/or taking action to improve that situation (i.e. well if I must deal with this then it is God\'s will and through no fault of my own and/or now I put my fate in the hands of God so I don\'t have to deal with it myself). I realize I just stomped all over many people\'s beliefs, and I apologize for that. I just felt I needed to respond to your comment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

franki

06-10-2003, 12:07 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
1)never really believed He didn\'t exist in the first place (used atheism as an excuse for disregarding the principles taught by their chosen religion/denomination) or

<hr /></blockquote>

That is right. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif (Allthough I have never been taught any principles ....)
Personally I can\'t imagine I will start to believe in God when I am old or sick. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

seadove

06-10-2003, 01:12 AM

DVK and Franki,

My argument was not trying to convert anyone to believe in G-d or not, and I myself am not so deep in religion,I take from Judaism what is suited for me and as for the difficult tasks in my religion I tend to leave aside. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
But if we are talking about believing in the very existance of G-d? Yes, absolutely!! My argument is IF it was evolution that got us to what we are now I would say that we would have been far, far more ugly that what the human race is today /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif, taking into consideration the so many harsh developments that occured during the million years of that same evolution.

There is no attempt on my side to convert people into believing or even not believing in G-d.The essay that I posted was of a different nature altogether.

And as for the bracketed quote under DVK\'s post,In my life I have seen people \"suddenly\" believing in the existance of G-d when sorrow or trajedy hit them.I see it all the time in my religion.

koolking1

06-10-2003, 01:52 AM

Why are people typing G-D instead of God?

seadove

06-10-2003, 01:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Why are people typing G-D instead of God?

<hr /></blockquote>

One of the ten commandments:

\"Thou shall not take (or use) my name in vain.\"

There are many names, the correct one is Y-E-H-U-V-A, in Hebrew, YOD-KAYE-VAV-KAYE.

But he also has names like Shalom, which is one of the most popular.

Religious jews however relate to Him as \"Ha-Shem\", which means \"The name\" so as not to break His law.

By writing the word \"G-d\" is really an American way of abiding to that law, and I see it in other forums as well.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 02:24 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Yes, absolutely!! My argument is IF it was evolution that got us to what we are now I would say that we would have been far, far more ugly that what the human race is today ,

<hr /></blockquote>

-------------------

Now that is some great proof. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif How do you know Humans are not ugly, in what context are you speaking of? I bet some of us would consider a dog or a pig pretty ugly, but to themselves I bet they \"don\'t\" see it and continue to have sex with eachother. Human beings to eachother are not ugly of course, if we were what sense would that make? If God makes such beautiful beings how come some humans in our own state of mind are extremely ugly? I guess that\'s a whole new debate in itself.

--------------------------

The converters can be explained. If I told you to tell me I am the best you would be like ahhh no I won\'t say that, you let me put a gun to your head and ask again I am sure I will get what I want. Those who are converting may be weaker and now can use a crutch, I have seen it with some of the most religious people around and when their problem is gone for some reason religion slips away too. Isn\'t religion partially a tool?

seadove

06-10-2003, 02:30 AM

The answer is here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/tku/tku17.htm (\"http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/tku/tku17.htm\")

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 02:32 AM

Couldn\'t find it Ivan. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

seadove

06-10-2003, 02:34 AM

Brouze through that site until you get to \"The Zohar\".

But you\'d better fasten your seatbelt!!This is heavy stuff.

I opened out to you the relevant pages about parts of the human being as written in the Zohar which is one small part of Kaballah.

DaVinciKittie

06-10-2003, 03:16 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The converters can be explained. If I told you to tell me I am the best you would be like ahhh no I won\'t say that, you let me put a gun to your head and ask again I am sure I will get what I want. Those who are converting may be weaker and now can use a crutch, I have seen it with some of the most religious people around and when their problem is gone for some reason religion slips away too. Isn\'t religion partially a tool?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yep.

Hungry

06-10-2003, 04:15 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I opened out to you the relevant pages about parts of the human being as written in the Zohar which is one small part of Kaballah.

<hr /></blockquote>

Hey seadove, I thought you said you were too afraid to read it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hungry

seadove

06-10-2003, 04:20 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Hungry:Hey seadove, I thought you said you were too afraid to read it!

<hr /></blockquote>

I was too tempted. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Great stuff here, but really I am scared. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Sexyredhead

06-10-2003, 04:24 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The converters can be explained. If I told you to tell me I am the best you would be like ahhh no I won\'t say that, you let me put a gun to your head and ask again I am sure I will get what I want. Those who are converting may be weaker and now can use a crutch, I have seen it with some of the most religious people around and when their problem is gone for some reason religion slips away too. Isn\'t religion partially a tool?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yep.

<hr /></blockquote>

I agree that sadly, many people only turn to their religion when they\'re in some bind or another. BUT, what about those people that are living in their religion day after day, and seem to be living happy lives? What about those people who are worshipping even if they\'re going through one of the happiest times of their lives? Believe it or not, there are a lot of those people out there.

Ya know, that converter comment reminds me of that girl at Columbine who had a gun to her head and was asked if she believed in God. She knew she would be killed if she did, and yet she still said \'yes\'.

My opinion is that it\'s weak and lazy to only serve your religion when you\'re in a jam. I was taught that God loves those who believe in Him totally, not just when they really need something. Either do it totally, or not at all.

seadove

06-10-2003, 04:33 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
I was taught that God loves those who believe in Him totally,

<hr /></blockquote>

In the Jewish religion this is totally untrue.In the old testiment there is a mention about G-d being a jealous G-d, but don\'t forget that the religious theory relates to the fact that G-d has created EVERYONE which also includes believers and non believers.So how can G-d love only the believers?

Furthermore, most religions talk about the judgement day.Now that is a different story altogether, but the Jewish faith believe in the reincarnation, which is like giving a person a 2nd or even a 3rd chance to repent and correct himself.

Sexyredhead

06-10-2003, 04:39 AM

Ok, let me correct that. You\'re right. But there\'s another place in the Bible (new testament, I believe) that says God has no respect for \'part-time\' believers. They make him angrier than those who don\'t believe at all.

That was the point I was trying to make.

seadove

06-10-2003, 04:47 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But there\'s another place in the Bible (new testament, I believe)

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'m afraid I don\'t know much about the new testiment.I\'m having a hard time to cope up with the old one, with all the other jewish books.

But that is quite hard to believe, because as I know it, Jesus was a jew but his teachings at that time was way too liberal for the Rabbis .So I think that the teachings of Christ was liberal, lenient to the believers and also he gave enough \"space\" for repent and self corrections.

Hope I\'m right.

Sexyredhead

06-10-2003, 04:53 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But there\'s another place in the Bible (new testament, I believe)

<hr /></blockquote>

I\'m afraid I don\'t know much about the new testiment.I\'m having a hard time to cope up with the old one, with all the other jewish books.

But that is quite hard to believe, because as I know it, Jesus was a jew but his teachings at that time was way too liberal for the Rabbis .So I think that the teachings of Christ was liberal, lenient to the believers and also he gave enough \"space\" for repent and self corrections.

Hope I\'m right.

<hr /></blockquote>

Where from my post did you get that God is not lenient? He\'s extremely lenient. That\'s why there\'s all that room for repentence and correction.

But just as you would have no respect for someone who was only nice to you when they needed something or where in a jam, God has no respect, even though He does love all of His creations. And just like lying or any other sin, the way to make up for this is to to do as He asks, repent and worship Him even in good times, and to appreciate the gifts He gives.

seadove

06-10-2003, 05:03 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
But just as you would have no respect for someone who was only nice to you when they needed something or where in a jam, God has no respect, even though He does love all of His creations. And just like lying or any other sin, the way to make up for this is to to do as He asks, repent and worship Him even in good times, and to appreciate the gifts He gives.

<hr /></blockquote>

Phew. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Well we\'re both saying the same thing I guess.

Maybe I\'d better go to the synagogue this saturday to repent for MY sins, just in case I sinned.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DaVinciKittie

06-10-2003, 11:15 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
My opinion is that it\'s weak and lazy to only serve your religion when you\'re in a jam. I was taught that God loves those who believe in Him totally, not just when they really need something. Either do it totally, or not at all.

<hr /></blockquote>

Exactly, SRH. That\'s exactly what I mean. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I wasn\'t advocating one religion over another or even questioning the existence of a higher power- I believe what I believe and I don\'t expect everyone to agree with me. I think we\'re on the same level with this /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif My point was, just as you said, if people truly believed their convictions then they wouldn\'t turn their backs on those beliefs at the first sign of trouble.

Sexyredhead

06-10-2003, 11:27 AM

I agree with you, I think. I\'m not sure if it\'s whether they totally BELIEVE or whether they\'re more concerned about what the rest of the world thinks and are too weak to stick up for what they believe in.

But think about it. Would you want a friend that ditches you at the first sign that somebody disapproves?

koolking1

06-10-2003, 12:01 PM

Seems quite a stretch to me that in talking about God in this context that we (or I) would be \"taking His name in vain\".

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 12:04 PM

It\'s part of the child and parent relationship that relgions try to engulf us in. For a good point maybe? Even as an adult we may feel like children, outside of our own blue planet what do we know? We need something, something greater to \"guide\" us.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 12:50 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
agree that sadly, many people only turn to their religion when they\'re in some bind or another. BUT, what about those people that are living in their religion day after day, and seem to be living happy lives? What about those people who are worshipping even if they\'re going through one of the happiest times of their lives? Believe it or not, there are a lot of those people out there.

<hr /></blockquote>

No, I don\'t think anyone prays or worships to any extreme because they simply love God. Is it possible to think you love God, sure. Could you love your mother even if you have not seen her your whole life, but you are told she is your mother? You could feel you love her, that you love her out of obligation, after all she is your mother. I wonder though doesn\'t true love take a hug, protection, a good conversation, relation of some type. You can\'t force love and expectations from something that seems to be inanimate (Bible). You can fight that point if you\'d like.

As much as we would like to fight and scratch at it, man (woman too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) is an Animal. Sure you can take a stroll down through suburbia and go wow, people or nice. You can go to the country sides of America and the rest of the world and think amazing people are loving creatures! Well in that environment don\'t expect to see everything animalistic of people, why would you? What do they have to fight for, what do they need? They have it all they can kick back a bit. Of course things are kept more on the down low and there are still problems and issues. Go to the inner city, got to a poorer foreign country and watch how immoral and evil people can be, we all act no matter where or who we are like animals, just really think about it. Everyone no matter how tight they hold their bible is still a animal prone to stupid, odd, sick, and evil behavior and everyone has acted on this before. We can play perfection but it never works, I have seen people who love and enjoy religion does it mean its not being used or it\'s not a tool? No, to some religion feels real good physcially and emotionally. They love the feeling they get from it and such, does anyone willingly do anything that doesn\'t give them pleasure?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Ya know, that converter comment reminds me of that girl at Columbine who had a gun to her head and was asked if she believed in God. She knew she would be killed if she did, and yet she still said \'yes\'.

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I have heard of this story as many people have. Now if a person on the street had a gun to my head and asked me if I believe in God, I am not sure what I would say because no one knows what that gunman (or woman /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) wants to hear, if you say yes you could get shot and if you say no you could get shot. If anyone thinks about it, I doubt the girl knew that this gunman had anything against God and that was going to be motive enough to shot her. You can have total faith in your religion but getting shot and losing your life and having your family lose you over one comment seems \"pointless\". Why what\'s the point who are you showing up? You could tell me that she is showing God, but would God want her to end her life just for one comment in the realm of things doesn\'t truly effect the \"system\", if God does I would think those are some high expectations and most of the people I know are going to \"hell\" at 20,000 miles per hour.

God is lenient.
Well, of course he is (christainity wise) religions are a bit like stocks, things have to look extremely good to the buyer before he is ready to fold in and put his whole life savings into it. Modern day Christainity is very popular, for a reason like there is a reason for why moss grows here and there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Think about this a lenient religion, no matter what you have done as long as you apologize to the man upstairs you get a free ride into total euphoric enjoyment (heaven). It is also a great way to cleanse your concious and feel much better.
--------------------
Religious people I speak to have a hard time dejecting themselves to have a debate on religion, they cannot hold this in the realm as we hold all things, why does it deserve special treatment?

Sexyredhead

06-10-2003, 01:53 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

No, I don\'t think anyone prays or worships to any extreme because they simply love God. Is it possible to think you love God, sure.

<hr /></blockquote>

Why not? That\'s like someone telling you that you don\'t really love someone, when you do. The mentality that you should only love someone/something because you\'re gonna get something good out of it is very shallow.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Could you love your mother even if you have not seen her your whole life, but you are told she is your mother? You could feel you love her, that you love her out of obligation, after all she is your mother. I wonder though doesn\'t true love take a hug, protection, a good conversation, relation of some type. You can\'t force love and expectations from something that seems to be inanimate (Bible). You can fight that point if you\'d like.

<hr /></blockquote>

It\'s God I love, not the Bible. The Bible is God\'s Word. And yes, I see God in the things He does, I feel his presence when I pray--and yes, at other times too. I feel His comfort when I need it, and I feel His disapproval when I\'ve done something wrong. You don\'t understand. You\'re looking at this from a \'what\'s in it for me\' viewpoint. God speaks--in a still, small voice. You have to really listen, but it\'s there. By praying, going to church, studying His Word, etc, you develop a relationship with Him that\'s stronger than any other relationship you can have.

And don\'t go saying that it\'s because I\'m from a very religious family, because I\'m not. Most of my family does not even go to church. They are Christians, but more often than not, they don\'t do a lot about it. Even I didn\'t go to church for most of my life.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

As much as we would like to fight and scratch at it, man (woman too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) is an Animal.

<hr /></blockquote>

The thing that separates us from animals is that we have a conscience. We know right from wrong. Yes, there are people out there who don\'t listen to it, but that doesn\'t mean it\'s not there. And there are people forced into desperate situations where they have to make very hard decisions, but again, they know right from wrong.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Everyone no matter how tight they hold their bible is still a animal prone to stupid, odd, sick, and evil behavior and everyone has acted on this before. We can play perfection but it never works, I have seen people who love and enjoy religion does it mean its not being used or it\'s not a tool?

<hr /></blockquote>
Who says we\'re playing at perfection??? I\'m no more perfect than anyone else out there. Everyone is prone to doing the wrong thing from time to time. But the difference is that we know that we\'re doing the wrong thing, that separates us from animals.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

To some religion feels real good physcially and emotionally. They love the feeling they get from it and such, does anyone willingly do anything that doesn\'t give them pleasure?

<hr /></blockquote>

Yes. You eat your veggies you don\'t like because they\'re good for you. You go to school and learn when you don\'t want to because it\'s good for you. You may not appreciate it now, but in the long run, you well be better for it.
I know it may seem strange, TM, but some of this world is not solely out for themselves. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Now if a person on the street had a gun to my head and asked me if I believe in God, I am not sure what I would say because no one knows what that gunman (or woman /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) wants to hear, if you say yes you could get shot and if you say no you could get shot.

<hr /></blockquote>
Then why not just tell the truth?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
You can have total faith in your religion but getting shot and losing your life and having your family lose you over one comment seems \"pointless\".

<hr /></blockquote>
It obviously wasn\'t pointless to her. The pointless part was someone killing her for it, not that she said \'yes\'.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
would God want her to end her life just for one comment in the realm of things doesn\'t truly effect the \"system\", if God does I would think those are some high expectations and most of the people I know are going to \"hell\" at 20,000 miles per hour.

<hr /></blockquote>

To deny God is not just a comment, and is very important in the scheme of things. It was a test, and though she died, she passed. It\'s really easy to just give in to save yourself, but that doesn\'t make it right.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 01:59 PM

Why not? That\'s like someone telling you that you don\'t really love someone, when you do. The mentality that you should only love someone/something because you\'re gonna get something good out of it is very shallow.
===================
We are animals of logic in some senses, first off when I said \"sure\" I didn\'t intend to sound sarcastic my apologizes. We have friends because we need links in this world you scratch my back I scratch yours! Everything we do is for a reason and in most cases the reasoning behind that is to protect and better ourselves, in every action we take we are in some way trying to better ourselves as that is what is most important to many of us, does that mean that someone cannot run in a burning building and save a child? No but for me to take even that situation at face value and say it\'s just because that firefighter wants to help kids is ignorant and low of me. Look at it as a firefighter would saving people is great fun and a great side effect to being a resuce working, but what drives them to pursue their job, most of the time they are adreneline junkies and love the type of hands on dangerous work thus bettering ourselves/making ourselves feel GOOD! Same goes for religion. I will read the rest of your reply right now I just had to reply to that little tid bit.

thanks SRH.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 02:05 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It\'s God I love, not the Bible. The Bible is God\'s Word. And yes, I see God in the things He does, I feel his presence when I pray--and yes, at other times too. I feel His comfort when I need it, and I feel His disapproval when I\'ve done something wrong. You don\'t understand. You\'re looking at this from a \'what\'s in it for me\' viewpoint. God speaks--in a still, small voice. You have to really listen, but it\'s there. By praying, going to church, studying His Word, etc, you develop a relationship with Him that\'s stronger than any other relationship you can have.

<hr /></blockquote>

How can you love God but not the Bile? If it wasn\'t for the Bible\'s existence you would not know of a \"God\". I have the same voice that I hear when I do something wrong, when I do something right, I just call it my concious.

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 02:13 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
The thing that separates us from animals is that we have a conscience. We know right from wrong. Yes, there are people out there who don\'t listen to it, but that doesn\'t mean it\'s not there. And there are people forced into desperate situations where they have to make very hard decisions, but again, they know right from wrong.

<hr /></blockquote>

Not everyone knows right from wrong, there are people so ignorant and twisted with their actions you would be shocked. There are people who feel nothing, who have no empathy or caring, I believe they are called Sociopaths (\"http://www.biologicalunhappiness.com/AskDoc/Sociopth.htm\"). Sociopaths have abosolutly no concious, and no remorse, they do not chose to be this way instead genetics chose them. That\'s another one of the million intersting loopholes. Why would God let a creature exist who actually enjoys savage behavior, and has no concious what would be the point of that? You can tell me I could never understand the point, but aren\'t we as Humans above all animals? Doesn\'t always seem like it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tallmacky

06-10-2003, 02:16 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Then why not just tell the truth?

<hr /></blockquote>

My point was this girl may not be a religious hero as many like to think, she simple was caught up in the moment.

Hey do you like the color red?

Um No....BANG.

Did I know what someone wanted to hear, so if I was to know I could form a lie?

**DONOTDELETE**

06-10-2003, 11:01 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
It\'s part of the child and parent relationship that relgions try to engulf us in. For a good point maybe? Even as an adult we may feel like children, outside of our own blue planet what do we know? We need something, something greater to \"guide\" us.

<hr /></blockquote>

It\'s said of Christianity that it is not a religion; it\'s a relationship. It doesn\'t so much seek to put us in an inferior position as to raise us up, by giving us an example to live by and the idea that, through ritual (baptism), we are one with Christ, through whom we can do all things (even overcome many temptations to sinful behaviors). It encourages us to identify our spiritual gifts and use them to elevate other people as well. Christianity is massively empowering to the individual and can be to the society.

Whether Christ was actually the son of god, or whether god exists -those are things we\'ll never know.

But the idea of the perfectability of man is a heresy. We\'re all imperfect and we always will be. So to say that man is imperfect, therefore churches are imperfect, therefore they don\'t reflect god, is a misunderstanding. Scripture does not indicate that god ever expects us to be any different; only that by prayer, meditation, study, we might err less often, and in the meantime, there is never a reason to give up, because we are forgiven in advance for the mistakes we make - we live in a state of grace. We\'re told to confess our mistakes and feel contrition - but even if we don\'t (sometimes we don\'t even realize what we\'ve done, so we can\'t confess and repent), God knows and sees us and forgives us.

A Christian may turn his back on god, but god never abandons his own. The man who turns his back, says he doesn\'t believe in god anymore, has no use for spiritual things - and then gets sick, or loses a loved one, or has other significant trouble in his life, and finds himself on his knees, talking fervently to god, only demonstrates the flawed nature he is already forgiven for. It\'s good that he comes back, even if it\'s only during times of stress. But his separation from god is only apparent from his perspective - you only see him - you don\'t see that god is still as close as he ever was - the man is just chosing to ignore him at the moment.

It\'s quite true to say that we are anmimals - but the implication is that animals are amoral, concerned only for themselves, and savage. Animals are also capable of love, loyalty, and sacrifice for one another. Not everything about being an animal is ignoble.

Religion attempts to focus our efforts on those things about our nature that are noble - and we appear to have a driving need for some external representation of our good qualities, because we always have created gods and always will.

While it\'s true that there are secondary gains associated with acts of sacrifice, e.g., the firefighter may get an adrenaline rush from going into the burning building, it\'s also true that sometimes noble gestures are performed in secret for no other reason but as praise to god - the secondary gain is the feeling of union with a deity that embodies goodness and mercy and an increased communion with that spirit of compassion.

Some people don\'t practice their religion in any outward forms, such as going to church, participating in church activities, etc., but they study scripture in private or in small groups, and they attune themselves to the voice of their conscience, make themselves very sensitive to the voice of their conscience, which can be amplified and sensitized through focus, as we were talking on another thread about taste and sound. Religion is a tool for amplification of your conscience and for your increased sensitivity to what\'s wrong, right, or appropriate to the situation, and it empowers you to operate on the highest level you are capable of in your relationships with other people.

seadove

06-11-2003, 12:13 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Tallmacky:How can you love God but not the Bible? If it wasn\'t for the Bible\'s existence you would not know of a \"God\". I have the same voice that I hear when I do something wrong, when I do something right, I just call it my concious.

<hr /></blockquote>

Very good TM, I\'m sure this time that it was you writing this portion of the thread. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I agree with you that,in a perspective point of view, G-d is \"concious\".But let\'s not develop a complex for nothing: G-d is G-d and the bible is the bible.We must not forget that all the bibles of the world are written by mortals who brought unto us the possibility of the existance of a G-d.

I\'m also with SRH who stated that she believes in G-d but not neccessary that she believes in the bible.Fact is that, one, I too believe in G-d (totally), and two, I am selective as to certain portions of the bible(s).

seadove

06-11-2003, 02:09 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sexyredhead to seadove:
But just as you would have no respect for someone who was only nice to you when they needed something or where in a jam, God has no respect, even though He does love all of His creations. And just like lying or any other sin, the way to make up for this is to to do as He asks, repent and worship Him even in good times, and to appreciate the gifts He gives.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

seadove to sexyredhead:
Phew.

Well we\'re both saying the same thing I guess.

Maybe I\'d better go to the synagogue this saturday to repent for MY sins, just in case I sinned.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well in reference to our a/m yesterday\'s most valued inter-feedbacks, and what do you know? I decided not to wait until saturday to go to the synagogue.So early evening I sneaked in the local temple,no one was there, I selected a seat and started praying.

Suddenly I heard something \"Psssst!\".

I was startled.I looked left and I looked right but there was nobody there.So I continued to pray.Then it came again,\"Psst up there!\", I looked up and I saw light, and there was a man dressed in white smiling at me.I got scared sh*t, but he calmed me, saying that he was the angel Gabrielle.He goes,\"What are you doing here?\"

I said \" I came for repentance, maybe I have doing a couple of woppers.\"

He said \"Would you like to tell me about it?\".I grasped the opportunity being that he\'s so close to G-d, maybe I\'d shorten my agony and all that.So I told him EVERYTHING.

Suddenly, but really suddenly, he burst out laughing,\"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ..........\" for a whole minute.From laughter tears rolled from his eyes and he was wiping his tears but he continued to giggle,\"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ......\"

I told him \"Stop that! Why are you laughing at me? Be serious!!\", but no, he fell on the ground and, clutching his stomach he continued, \"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ......\"

\"Stop that!\" I told him, \"I\'m telling you some serious stuff and you\'re laughing at me?\"

He took a grip at himself, stood up and said \"I think I\'ll have to tell you something....\" and still there were some giggles, Gabrielle still did not control himself.

Suddenly a thunderous voice echoed from behind him.\"OH, TELL HIM DAMN IT!!\"

Gabrielle straightened himself, took complete control and said,\"It seems that there was a mistake in our allocations for you.According to our books you were supposed to be a comedian.\"

And then all three of us fell on the floor laughing our as*es off for the next 5 minutes.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Sexyredhead

06-11-2003, 04:49 AM

Seadove, I do believe the Bible. I\'m just not sure which parts to take literally and which parts to take as example--or both. That\'s why I\'ve got a lot of studying to do still. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TM, you might want to check out a book called \'Mere Christianity\' by C.S. Lewis. It\'s a good book that I read at about 18 and strangely enough have picked up again since this thread started. I think it will answer a lot of your questions better than I ever could. It\'s not going to attempt to convert you, so don\'t worry. It just lays out the basic beliefs of Christianity and why we believe them. It\'s an interesting read, even if you\'re not really religious. Especially the part about the Nature of Man.

FTR--Good post. I agree with a lot of it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

seadove

06-11-2003, 04:56 AM

SRH

You\'re so disappointing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I took such a long time to compose you a \"seadove\" original joke especially for you and you ignore it?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif