Penis Improvement, sort of...

[xxxPantero]

Well, I\'m doing three things to my penis (or at least planning to):

1) Trying to widen it, not lengthen it. It is about 6.5-7(rare times) in length, and
2) I want it to angle up. So far, it is a little down, not straight (unless I flex my PC muscles)
3) I want a \"partial circumcision\". I want enough skin to cover the tip when it\'s soft, so I can retain the sensitivity, but little enough where it will peel back all the way when i\'m hard (instead of me having to do that manually). This is going to cost me about $1000, so I\'ll save that for another time.

As far as the first two... anyone have any ideas on the best ways to go about it?

I never stuck with any program because I have other things in my life besides my penis and my sex life. But if there\'s one that\'s time-efficient, I\'m all for it.

[TBiRD]

Ok using this technique will change your dick into a freaky anaconda.

All the info u need is below. Btw don\'t even bother with jelq/stretching if girth is all u want. There is absolutely nothing in this world that adds girth faster than the SQUEEZE.
I think u will see resuls in less than 2 weeks....basically u see them immidiatelly after workout , but after 2 weeks it\'ll stay almost the whole day the way u made it (Verrry thick) After 2-3 month the gains will be permanent ! ...Also consider upping kegels (pc muscle workout) because u need better pc muscles to handle/get up a MUCH heavier dick by the end of your enlargment adventure.
Do the squeeze 5 days straight , then 2 days off. one workout = 10 - 15 minutes , go for quality not amount , try to do them as correct as possible.
+ They are verrrrrrrry easy to perform , but hard to master. If u overdo on your first week , or any workout day (=squeezing to hard) u could burst a vein. (Needs few month to heal - so be careful) While u perform a single squeeze the veins on the middle part of your unit will stand out alot , wich is good = u are doing it right ...just make sure u don\'t squeeze to hard or else Kabooooom !

If u are interested in a PC mUscle workout suggestion/programm...post below I\'ll give u few examples

Enjoy and report back.
------------------------------------------------------

THE SQUEEZE

This is a technique that was introduced to us by \"Big Al\". It has proven to be an amazing exercise for increasing penis girth (thickness), and can be used by both enlargement beginners and old-timers alike. Because it was first mentioned in our User Forum, it has never been included in our regular set of exercises... until Now!



Again, The Squeeze is used to increase penis girth, not length. The Squeeze is NOT related to the PC (Kegel) Exercises (which also incorporate \"squeezes\").



IMPORTANT:

The Squeeze should be done IN PLACE of the Jelq!! Do not do both the Squeeze and the Jelq in one session... that would be overkill, which might tire the penis and slow down the growth process. Do one or the other.



You should perform the Squeeze about 3 times a week. You can alternate days with the Jelq. Over time, this will help you build up both your erect girth and length. You should still perform your Stretching Exercises 5 days a week!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Directions for the Squeeze:



1. Do NOT use lubrication for this exercise. Get your penis in a SEMI-ERECT state.



2. Take one hand and place it at the base of the penis, with your thumb and forefinger in the \"OK\" sign as if you were jelqing. Take your other hand and grip the area just behind the head of the penis.



3. Now SQUEEZE with both hands! Your penis should look very swollen and veiny. Essentially, you are squeezing at the base and below the head at the same time, engorging the middle. (If you like, you can do a Kegel before each Squeeze).



4. Hold this position for 5 seconds.



5. Release. Wait about 2-3 seconds, then start again.



6. Do 50+ reps, resting after every 10 reps or so. (If you\'re just beginning our penis enlargement program, you might start out with 10 reps and gradually add more each day).

[Kifer85]

hey, lucky me, i got pantero\'s ideal dick!

sorry bud, it aint for sale

but i think Tbird has the right info for increasing girth. Kegels are probably the best all around for keeping a lot of blood in your shaft. I dont think there\'s a way to effectively or safely change the angle of ur penis.

use ur hardware the best way you can. Since you say it bends downward, rear entry positions would probably work like magic in hitting the g spot. Hell, im a 17 yr old virgin but from what ive read, an upward bending shaft (like mine) only helps hitting the g spot in missionary-type positions, so as long as you know how to use what you\'ve got, the angle isnt so important. Astheticly speaking, i doubt any woman would ever conciously find an nasty-ass veiny upward bent penis any more attractive than a nasty-ass veiny downward bent penis /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The way I read it, he doesn\'t want to put a bend in his penis, he wants it to point toward his navel when its erect rather than go more parallel to the floor.

Nothing wrong with that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kifer85]

oh, i see, with the whole flexing pc muscles thing...ur probably right. Either way, its isnt so important, but yes, kegels are the absolute best for that i think.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think I read somewhere that that is an indicator of a better eection, when it points straight up. Maybe because it means more blood flow? ... I\'m no expert...

[xxxPantero]

actually, the main reason that i want it thicker and pointing up (not bending) is:

it will rub my girl\'s clit better while i\'m sliding in and out. if it\'s thicker, it is more likely to cause friction of the outer labia against the clit. and as far as the angle goes, well, half of our positions are face-to-face... that angle will cause my shaft to rub against her clit more. as for when we do it in any crotch-to-butt position (spooning, doggie, etc.), i\'m theorizing that the way the shaft will be pressing against the front of the pussy wall (next to the clit, again) will make it more pleasurable for her.

i want to focus on her clit, not on the g-spot. let\'s not forget that lots of women still love their clits more than their g-spots (easier access, more familiarity)... but correct me if i\'m wrong.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif oh and my problem with the squeeze is that it thickens the head and the upper shaft, leaving the lower shaft neglected, yet this is where tends to rub against my girl\'s clit, so that\'s where i need the size. any ideas on how to thicken the part of the shaft closer to my pelvis, not my d!ckhead?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t understand your last paragraph.

[xxxPantero]

hm...... okay, let me try and explain.

when i squeeze from the bottom/base of my shaft, my dick starts to look like a light bulb. no it doesn\'t light up, but it \"enlarges\" only at the top and middle like a lightbulb, just not to those proportions.

i want even thickness along the shaft, not a friggin pear-shaped penis. I want a cucumber, not a banana or a carrot. Are you understanding? Now, are u hungry or horny?

[DaVinciKittie]

Well, damn it, now *I\'m* hungry...

[Thanatos]

Get your OK grip at the base and do a good squeeze to get the blood trapped in, now get an ok grip right below your head and squeeze. Hold this for about 20 seconds and rest for 5-10 seconds to let the blood circulate. do around 10-20 reps of these. The ultimate girth enlarging excercise out there.
Also, even though you may be getting that \'bulbous\' shape when doing your squeezes now it will regulate itself over time so dont worry about it to much. I would still do the exercises you have been doing for head enlargement.

[Thanatos]

Oops, looks like TBird already explained the above exercise.

[Whitehall]

I\'m going to share the way I grew my slong by half an inch in 3 weeks.

Some of you have guessed the answer but I was being coy. Plus, I thought I had a better way but that notion had technical problems:

Here\'s how to do it. Order a transdermal androstenediol spray such as:

http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=53 (\"http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=53\")

There are others out there - Ergopharm\'s Andro Spray was what I used but it has been discontinued.

Smear a little on your penis every night and every morning after showering.

You may want to take saw palmetto or an anti-estrogen concurrently for prostate protection. ZMA might help to but I haven\'t tried that.

[monesrule]

it is permanent whitehall? is it safe for you penis?

[Whitehall]

It\'s been a couple of months and my dick hasn\'t shrunk yet. I am getting used to the new enlarged size - it\'s grown on me, so to speak.

It might do some unpleasant things to your prostate since it\'s RIGHT THERE. That\'s why the recommendation for saw palmetto just to be safe.

[monesrule]

how long did you use it? not the saw palmeto

[druid]

what xxxPantero is talking about is called a baseball bat penis. well that is what is called on www.thundersplace.com (\"http://www.thundersplace.com\") -- a penis enlargement forum. it is pretty cool. I am pretty sure they would have a post or two on what your looking for.

[Kifer85]

I think hes saying he doesnt want a baseball bat penis, but a more uniform increase in girth.

[xxxPantero]

yeah, what kifer said

[**DONOTDELETE**]

A noble goal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[EXIT63]

no improvement necessary over here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Cloud9]

I know testosterone increases cell repair in the penis. I wonder if you jelqed and then put the topical 4-diol gel on it would get you even better results. ...This is an interesting topic.

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
no improvement necessary over here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Pics?

[Whitehall]

What\'s really working for you is dihydrotestosterone - DHT. It is directly involved in the growth of the penis - and I assume the clitoris.

DHT is also very psychoactive for one\'s libido and can make your hair fall out.

So 4-androstendiol converts to testosterone in the local tissue which is further converted into DHT - that\'s the theory anyway. Doctors have used for years topical DHT lotions to increase penis size in teenagers with glandular problems. Make that \"abnormal teenage glandular problems...\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Since the conversions require zinc, I suggested that ZMA might make the conversion processes more efficient although I am fuzzier on this set of facts and haven\'t tried adding ZMA myself.

Whether 4-AD plus \"exercises\" is superior to either individually, I can\'t tell although one would hope.

My experience without \"exercises\" is that growth was proportional - length and girth increased in the same ratio.

The reason I gave a commercial 4-AD topical product is that this one (amongst others) contains a \"penetration enhancer\" - what a coincidence! A penetration enhancer to enhance your penetrator!

[Cloud9]

I would try this, but I don\'t want my hair to fall out from the DHT.

[Cloud9]

What is very interesting is the doctor\'s application for glandular deffecient teenagers. So applying 4-ad is like starting up the growth of the penis again as if you were in puberty right? Kind of like the stage when girls breast develope from an increase in estrogen. Am I right on this? So if a male were to apply a topical 4-ad prohormone to his penis morning and night he would replicate the growth stage? I think this is a great idea...! Nice one Whitehall!!!!!!

[monesrule]

hair fall out?? what\'s this about?

[Whitehall]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Nice one Whitehall!!!!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Thank you but I\'ve already heard that except that she prefaced it with \"OHHHHHH...\" - up close and personal. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

It\'s a long way from your dick to your head - moreso for some of us than others. But, yes, DHT is usually considered the culprit in male pattern baldness. If you use androgenic steroids it can happen. It starts with hair thinning.

Since you\'re applying a little on one specific location, the amount that reaches your head hair should be very small. People use these topical 4-AD lotions in much larger amounts over large areas of their body to achieve greater muscle mass. What you will be using here shouldn\'t be a problem.

I think that prostate issues are of more concern but even then I don\'t think I saw any effect and I\'m at an age where prostate is more of an issue.

No guarantees - it\'s your decision.

[monesrule]

can you get muscle growth without working out then?

[Whitehall]

No. Steroid use will aid in muscle additions only with exercise. Doctors sometimes give steroids to AIDS victims to prevent wasting but for a healthy guy, you gotta break a sweat in the gym or do hard labor, the more noble way to earn your muscles.

The mechanism by which DHT builds penis tissue differs from the way anabolic steroids build muscle.

[monesrule]

no loop huh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif well at least there is for our penises

[Andy]

How would a systematic reduction inhibitor like Finasteride or Dutasteride influence this effect ?

[monesrule]

i just order the stuff btw. i will report any gains

[Whitehall]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
How would a systematic reduction inhibitor like Finasteride or Dutasteride influence this effect ?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Great question! I wish I knew but it would be hard to tell from just one person trying it. It does make some sense.

[Andy]

Hey Mones ... take some Fin with the 4-ADerm, we need to get some info ... It\'s better to try it with Fin(Proscar) first anyway, because it will protect your Prostate from unnatural growing during the process.

[monesrule]

can you explain to me what fin is and how to get it? And won\'t saw palmetto do the same thing?

I don\'t want to do anything dangerous

[Elana]

Aren\'t Fin and Dut prostate drugs? I thought that they came with a lot of unwanted side effects.

[Andy]

Saw palmetto is a weak aromatase inhibitor afaik. Finasteride (Proscar) is a medication used to treat non cancerous prostate growth. There are many places on the web where you can order it. You might be able to get some from a website dedicated to hair loss treatment, because Finasteride is used there as well, but in a lower concentration (Propecia=1mg Proscar=5mg). People with hairloss often buy Proscar and split the tabs.

There is a chance that you won\'t gain anything with Fin, but it\'s safer to test it with Fin first, because DHT levels in your prostate will be sky high with 4-ADerm. Just think about it.

[monesrule]

wht about wht elana was syaing about side effects of them

[Elana]

You can find out lots of info on Fin and Dut on this forum

http://www.hairsite4.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&amp;forum=DCForumID5&amp;conf=DCConfID 3 (\"http://www.hairsite4.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&amp;forum=DCForumID5&amp;conf=DCConfID 3\")

[Andy]

Don\'t use Duta ... it will might kill your libido with a delaying effect and has some other nasty side effects. Finasteride might! reduce your libido a little (double blind studies have shown that that\'s a psychological issue in most cases), but the effect wears of a few days after discontinued use, in case you are experiencing such.

I think using 4-AD on your dick is much more of an intrusion to your system.

[monesrule]

so Finasteride is a pill people take for hair loss? Why would it possibly make the stuff i am putting on my dick not work?

[Andy]

Finasteride was a medication to fight prostate growth in the first place. Patients that had hairloss issues along their prostate problems reported positive effects on their hair structure and even some growth gain. Finasteride inhibits the reduction of Testosterone to DHT by blocking the 5-alpha enzyme. In case it\'s really the DHT that causes the gain (I am still in doubt about that, because bald men would have to wrap their dicks around the waist in this case), there will be less to no gain with Fin. It\'s not eliminating the DHT (\"The\" is wrong anyway, because there are different types of DHT and only one is blocked by Fin) completely but reducing the amount in the system.

[monesrule]

andy -- so you think there is something else about 4-androstenediol hat causes the gain, other then DHT?

second opinion on this whitehall et all?

[TBiRD]

lol monesrule , don\'t be so f+++king desperate bout some gains dude /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Want an intelligent way of finding out whether this stuff works or not ?

Post everything Whitehall said in this thread @ PE Forums + @ THundersplace...there are hundreds of hardgainers/no gainers who will flock to this stuff like flys to [bad word] !!!
YOu will know in 2-3 weeks if it worked because hundrets will report back !!!! In the meantime you could start an easy stretching/squeezing routine , so in the end NO MATTER if the other stuff works or not you\'d have gained in size and girth , absolutely safe and 100% . Incase the topical stuff is good and has no effects on their/your prostate(s) You can STILL smear some on after 3 weeks , and DOUBLE gain ! Double win !

Enjoy!

[Andy]

It might be the 4-androstenediol itself because it\'s an androgen that\'s usually found in the system in really small amounts. It will be broken down like almost nothing else when ingested orally, because it will be turned to testosterone and other forms almost completely before it passes the liver. That\'s why it was hyped a long time among precursor supp fans. It might be a different break down product as well, but DHT is so common in the system that it\'s hard to believe that it will give you any gains, at least not on his own.

[monesrule]

i have\'t been to a penis forum, so i never would have thought of doing that.

it is not a bad idea, but i don\'t doubt whitehall that it works, so it wouldn\'t be of much benefit to me. I\'m just trying to find out what the stuff i am taking (including fin) does to my body internally. that\'s not being desperate about some gains, that is being smart.

I was thinking of doing the exercises you have been posting about along with the spray, so i can get off this stuff as quick as possible

[Whitehall]

It is certainly possible that other steroids than DHT cause penis growth. I can only state that standard medical opinion is that it is DHT that does the job and DHT has been prescribed to do the job because it works.

I suspect that DHT-preventers like proscar probably will block some or all of the local growth effect of topical 4-AD. I could be wrong but that\'s my guess. Saw palmetto seems more prostate-specific and seems to have other mechanism(s) of action compared to proscar - that\'s why I recommended it.

Male pattern baldness is the product of scalp DHT levels times follicule DHT receptor sensitivity. Some men can have high DHT levels and their scalp doesn\'t react so there are two independent variables.

Encouraging a mass trial is a little cagey - I\'m willing to share my experience with forum members who are in general knowledgable - giving it out to the world is something I don\'t want to take responsibility for.

[Andy]

Sure WH,

You have to have sensitive hair follicles to experience hair loss from the DHT, but in the end you know that bald people have high DHT levels /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. The DHT level is lowered throughout the whole system with Finasteride. But I just read that it works only a short period of time after ingestion. That means, it will lower the DHT level, for example, during the first two hours after ingestion and they raise up afterwards again. You have to take it always at the same time during the day (preferably in the morning) to lower the overall level. This should render the effect workless when correctly timed.

[Cloud9]

would a natural estrogen blocker like 6-Oxo by Ergopharm help while taking 4-ADerm?

[Andy]

It would inhibit the aromatising of Testo to Estrogen. I am not sure if it plays an essential role because effects like bitch tits and such shouldn\'t be a big issue while using such small amounts of a topical solution.

[Whitehall]

What I know for certain:

1) a topical 4-AD solution applied to my slong for 3 weeks, twice a day caused a noticeable growth in length and girth

2) neither my head hair nor my pubic hair fell out

3) my prostate didn\'t show any immediate problems.

4) if you try this and something untoward happens, its not my responsibility

Your results may differ.


What I THINK is:

1) the 4-AD converted to testosterone which converted to DHT locally

2) DHT is responsible for the tissue growth

3) the penetration enhancers in the commercial 4-AD preparation aided in the transdermal absorption

4) ZMA might help in the conversion in 1) above

5) saw palmetto might give an added degree of protection to one\'s prostate during 4-AD treatment

6) proscar and the like might prevent local conversion to DHT

[Cloud9]

I thought Testosterone also causes cell repair/growth?

[Whitehall]

There are tissues and there are tissues. Different stuff causes different tissues to grow.

Testosterone and other anabolic steroids cause MUSCLE to grow. Human growth hormone can cause your hands to grow. DHT causes your dick to grow. Jello makes my finger nails and toe nails grow. Masturbation causes the hair on the palm of my hands to grow. Beer makes my belly grow (phytoestrogens in the hops.)

[monesrule]

I emailed who i bought it from (you can find that info by clicking whitehall\'s link on page 2 of the thread recommending the best topical stuff).

Here was the response:

Do you recommend taking anything for the prostate with this 4-androstenediol ? I expect to take it in a small area for 3 to 6 weeks.

Answer:
4AD isn\'t going to be hard on your prostate unless done for long periods and high doses (over 12 weeks)

[Cloud9]

beware frequent masturbators...you might grow bodily hair like robin Williams if you don\'t cut back!

[Sagacious1420]

Hey Whitehall,
I checked that link you provided for the 4-ADerm. I noticed that the directions call for 5-10 squirts, twice daily. However, no mention of how much area this dosage is intened to cover. Can you or anyone who has used this product provide some clarification for me on this matter. Also, it said to used 2 weeks and take 4 weeks off.
WH- you say you used it for 3 weeks w/out any probs, right.
MONES- you mentioned that up to 12 weeks should be fine w/out any probs. Was this from the manufacturer or the website selling the stuff.?
Thanx all

[monesrule]

one of the guys from the site emailed me that my order was sent out. very god customer service, i never even contacted them. i replied and asked that question. I think because pople use it for their muscles, the area must be huge, like chest, arms, legs, etc. Now granted I a huge down there -- that\'s why i am getting this stuff -- it is still can\'t compare to the surface area of someone using it for muscles.

[Cloud9]

Saga..., Prohormones like 4-aderm should be taken in generally 4 weeks cycles max so that your own body\'s production of Testosterone doesn\'t become weakened permanently or shutdown because you are getting it from an external source than your body\'s.. generally 4 weeks on 2 weeks off is a first cycle.

[Cloud9]

did some researching...check this out www.actionlove.com/cases/case9800.htm (\"http://www.actionlove.com/cases/case9800.htm \")

[Andy]

First I was like wtf, what has catheterization to do with a growing dick ;P .... But it\'s actually really interesting.

[Whitehall]

For using 4-AD for anabolic muscle growth, you spray on your skin so that it gets into your general system in a slow, long-lasting dose. You want thin skin in general.

For penis growing, you\'re only using it locally.

One might use 9 full sprays for muscles and the equivalent of half a spray for local penis coating.

Big difference in how much gets absorbed and where it ends up.

[Cloud9]

Anyone who tries please report your results here!!!!

[Andy]

I ordered two bottles of 4-AD, one is for myself (I\'ll try to bulk up my biceps a little more) and one is for a test person. I already know the possible target, but how do you tell a mate that his dick might need some adjustment? (He\'s the BF of my cousin and might need some help regarding this topic) Well, I think I\'ll leave it to her, she\'d break up anyway otherwise .. don\'t ask .. I haven\'t, but she told me that he could get a full year insurance membership for his dick for less than a nickel. This sounds quite bad to me, so I don\'t think he\'d complain about the beta testing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif This is really interesting .....

Regarding my issues ....
To the Bodygurus: I already have well developed arms but since I only have to look at weights to gain in the chest area/shoulders I am experiencing a problem. I started to work out again two weeks ago and my chest and back is already bulking up with muscle mass. My arms look kinda misplaced because I seem to gain much slower there. (I am gettin\' gains on the arms like everybody else does, but the other areas are literally exploding). Is there a chance to boost the arms with the 4-AD solution only, or will I have to train the arms only while bein\' on that stuff ?

[Hungry]

What the hell, I just ordered a bottle as well.

This stuff is actually illegal in Australia, so not sure if I\'ll even receive it. Customs may nab it.

I never used to get my international orders searched by Customs, until a few months ago when Quarantine (a separate entity to Customs) seized a package of psychoactive plant material I ordered. Lucky they missed all the others. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif They must have flagged my name in the system or something because since then about half of the items I order get inspected.

I figure that gives me a good 50% chance of receiving it. I can live with those odds. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Hungry

[Sagacious1420]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
For using 4-AD for anabolic muscle growth, you spray on your skin so that it gets into your general system in a slow, long-lasting dose. You want thin skin in general.

For penis growing, you\'re only using it locally.

One might use 9 full sprays for muscles and the equivalent of half a spray for local penis coating.

Big difference in how much gets absorbed and where it ends up.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Thanx, WH I appreciate your response. It seems that the product on the link you provided is a \"lotion\", so I guess we\'ll have to do our own testing here to determine what is appropriate. However, the proportion that you providd may be of use to get started with the 4-AD. Anyone else have any experience w/ this product or other types of lotion products of this nature? Recommendations for dosage?

[Sagacious1420]

Sidenote Whitehall,
Nice to \"meet\" someone from the Bay Area. You seem to be a very intelligent, articulate and well-read person. I appreciate that. I look forward to picking your brain on this phorum.I promise not to pick the scabs, though...every time someone wants to pick my brain , they always go right for the scabs...how will they ever heal that way? LOL I look forward to hearing more from you on the phorum.

[Whitehall]

I\'ll take those compliments! Thank you.

Note that the specific product I used was Ergopharm Andro Spray. It has been discontinued by the manufacturer but might still be in stock at some retail outlets.

There are other products out there that should serve as replacements. Any liquid, transdermal product with 4-androstenediol and a \"penetration enhancer\" like isopropyl mystriate should do.

Another product that is interesting is Medlean\'s Andro Sports Creme. I\'ve used it for muscle building purposes and found it well balanced. It has extra ingredients that complicate the penis building application - don\'t know it they would interfer or not.

[Cloud9]

I did some more research on topical application of a Aderm Prohormone and it is in clincal trials now for possible treatment of Hypogonadism(didn\'t go through puberty...aka micropenis/underdeveloped female and male.), and Erectile dysfunction. It seems the less circulation in your penis the less DHT or hormones will escape from the onsite location of the cream on the penis(Lin institute quote). I am thinking you could have less side-effects if you apply the cream when you penis is flaccid(limp), and possibly after applying some ice to it to decrease circulation. I think you will still get growth even in poor circulation. Also to note: the Lin Institute(famous) has a penis restoration/erection cream that has Androstendione in it. 4-Aderm (4-androstendiol is much more potent at conversion into testosterone than the old Androstendione and so forth). I believe I might give this Avant Labs 4-Aderm a whirl before too long since Whitehall gained 1/2 an inch in length and girth without doing any exercises in 3 weeks from the Andro topical spray(less effective than the 4-aderm cream in the ammount that reaches the target area).

[Whitehall]

I went to engineering school with this Lin guy - never met his wife!

He\'s got some multicultural cross-pollenation going on

[NoLimits]

On sale:

Z4 Anabolic Transdermal 8 oz. spray

19.95

http://www.sportsnutrition2000.com/z4anabolic.html (\"http://www.sportsnutrition2000.com/z4anabolic.html\")

Supplement Facts: Serving Size 1 milliliter. Servings per container 240. Amounts: Each milliliter of this solution contains 50mgs of 4Androstenediol.

[CptKipling]

At half the price of Whitehall\'s suggestion, I\'d say that was a bargin!

But...will it suffer from not having the penetration compound? My guess is no, but then I\'m no expert.

[Elana]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/921042.asp?cp1=1 (\"http://www.msnbc.com/news/921042.asp?cp1=1\")

[Elana]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/855745.asp?0cb=-115160354 (\"http://www.msnbc.com/news/855745.asp?0cb=-115160354\")

[tallmacky]

You guys know Longitude, well they are out of business and being sued because they promised a money back guarantee and had so many dissatisified customers.

[Genome335]

Whitehalls claims about using 4-AD to induce penis enlargment sounds ridiculous, it would be good if you included some before and after pictures.

[Whitehall]

I\'m not sure I trust your motivations for wanting photos of my private parts - sir, is it?

The Theory of Relativity sounded ridiculous too - guess it still does unless you understand the Michelson-Morley experiment.

The biochemical theory is that 4-AD converts to testosterone which converts to DHT locally in the skin and in the lymphatic fluids of the genitals. Conversion is very efficient there. DHT is well-understood as the hormone that drives penis and clitoris growth in youths. MDs will commonly prescribe it for adolescents with underdeveloped genitalia. Of course, 4-AD may have direct action but that has not been reported.

I\'ve simply stated the facts of my experiment - I rubbed this stuff on for three weeks and the damn thing grew by a third to half an inch. It absolutely felt longer and heavier to my hand. None of the other supplements I was taking at the time had any reputation for sexual impacts.

What you do with this report is up to you. For those who chose to replicate my experiment, please post your results positive or negative. I wish I had thought to measure before and after but such measurements are difficult and not very reliable so good technique is important.

[shad0ws]

At this site I found a warning, Whitehall can you tell me if this happened?:
http://www.dietsexercise.com/4-ADerm-4-androstenediol-avant-labs-text.htm (\"http://www.dietsexercise.com/4-ADerm-4-androstenediol-avant-labs-text.htm\")

------------------------------------------------------------
WARNINGS: FOR EXTERNAL USE ONLY. Harmful if swallowed. Keep out of reach of children. In case of accidental ingestion, seek professional assistance or contact a poison control center immediately. If excessive irritation of the skin develops, discontinue use. Avoid getting in eyes or mucous membranes. Not intended for females or anyone under the age of 21. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif ****This product contains ingredients that may cause shrinkage of the testicles and infertility in males.**** /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif In females, it may cause increased facial and body hair, deepening of the voice, and clitoral enlargement. Higher dosages may increase these risks. Do not use if at risk for prostate cancer.
--------------------------------------------------------
I want to buy this stuff but I wanted to ask first... Thanks!


-Adam

[Whitehall]

That\'s the standard FDA warning for androgenic prohormones.

Of course, it\'s true but only with high doses for long periods. Those spray products are usually used for whole body treatment to grown muscles in anabolic mode. For our purposes, the systemic doses are very low but more localized. The prostate effects are the more worrisome which is why I recommend concurrent usage of saw palmetto.

I saw none of these effects with three weeks treatment.

I just did a weeks\' worth of treatment using a saturated solution of 4-AD in Everclear. It seemed to grow a bit but I found the effect on the skin to be what one might expect from dipping one\'s wienie in 150 proof flambe sauce twice a day - the skin grew somewhat irritated. The Ergopharm stuff didn\'t cause this effect over three weeks.

I got another report from a guy who thought he saw growth after two days. I suggested that just might be edema (swelling) and was just a preliminary to growth and not the real thing. He agreed with that intepretation.

[shad0ws]

DrSmellThis... I\'ve been reading your posts for sometime and I wanted to know what you stumbled upon when experimenting with the different mones down south. Was it A1? I\'m curios what chems cause tissue growth safely and naturally; this is very interesting.

-Adam

[TBiRD]

Ok dear guinea pigs,ER, humans /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Did , some research , FOUND a shitload of information on topical penis enlarging testo gels : CHECK IT OUT + FEEL FREE TO COMMENT - Oh , and DOn\'T LET IT GET TO YOUR BALLS !


Random posts I found worth sharing :

[b]

And when I stumbled on ANDROGEL, my results skyrocketed.
This is prescription testosterone (topical gel) and really adds to the gains.
I am considering the PowerJelq to add to my gains.
I started at 6 inches and now at 8 in length.
Girth has gone from 6.25 to 7.75
Shooting for 10-12 inches in length and at least 8 in girth.
THE Power Jelq looks like the ticket.
For Androgel, you need an RX, check out http://www.tquiz.com (\"http://www.tquiz.com\") and see if you \"qualify\" for hypogonadism.
You use the gel on the penis every other day to avoid suppression of your own hormones.
Follow it with any cream or better yet some vitamin E gel.
Here are some references both for topical testosterone and Peyronies.

Alpha-adrenergic receptor blockade by phentolamine increases the efficacy of vasodilators in penile corpus cavernosum.
Int J Impot Res 2000 Mar;12 Suppl 1:S26-36 (ISSN: 0955-9930)
Kim NN; Goldstein I; Moreland RB; Traish AM
Department of Urology, Boston University School of Medicine, Massachusetts 02118, USA. nnkim@bu.edu. (\"nnkim@bu.edu.\")
Penile trabecular smooth muscle tone, a major determinant of erectile function, is highly regulated by numerous inter- and intracellular pathways. The interaction between pathways mediating contraction and relaxation has not been studied in detail. To this end, we investigated the functional effects of alpha adrenergic receptor blockade with phentolamine and its interaction with vasodilators (sildenafil, vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP) and PGE1) that elevate cyclic nucleotides on penile cavernosal smooth muscle contractility. In organ bath preparations of cavernosal tissue strips contracted with phenylephrine, phentolamine significantly enhanced relaxation induced by sildenafil, VIP and PGE1. Sildenafil, VIP or PGE1 also significantly enhanced relaxation induced by phentolamine in cavernosal tissue strips contracted with phenylephrine. To study the effects of alpha adrenergic receptor blockade and modification of cyclic nucleotide metabolism during active neurogenic input, cavernosal tissue strips in organ bath preparations were contracted with the non-adrenergic agonist endothelin-1 and subjected to electrical field stimulation (EFS) in the absence or presence of phentolamine and/or sildenafil. EFS (5-40Hz) typically caused biphasic relaxation and contraction responses. Phentolamine alone enhanced relaxation and reduced or prevented contraction to EFS. Sildenafil enhanced relaxation to EFS at lower frequencies (&amp;lt; or = 5 Hz). The combination of phentolamine and sildenafil enhanced EFS-induced relaxation at all frequencies tested. EFS, in the presence of 10 nM phentolamine and 30 nM sildenafil, produced enhanced relaxation responses which were quantitatively similar to those obtained in the presence of 50 nM sildenafil alone. Thus, blockade of alpha-adrenergic receptors with phentolamine increases the efficacy of cyclic nucleotide-dependent vasodilators. Furthermore, phentolamine potentiates relaxation and attenuates contraction in response to endogenous neurotransmitters which are released during EFS. These findings suggest that antagonism of alpha-adrenergic signaling enables other independent relaxatory pathways to predominate within penile trabecular smooth muscle.

Androgen induction of DNA synthesis in the rat penis.
Urology 1998 Oct;52(4):723-8 (ISSN: 0090-4295)
Shabsigh R; Raymond JF; Olsson CA; O\'Toole K; Buttyan R
Department of Urology, Columbia University, College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, New York 10032, USA.
OBJECTIVES: The androgen sensitivity of the mammalian penis has long been appreciated. However, the precise biochemical and structural sequelae of alterations in testosterone, and the mechanisms thereof, remain to be elucidated. Recently, the androgen dependence of rat penile erectile tissue was further clarified at our institution, where the induction of apoptosis was demonstrated in response to castration. In continuity, we report the results of a follow-up study of the regenerative capacity of the regressed, castrated rat penile erectile tissue when testosterone is replenished. METHODS: Three groups of rats were used: normal control rats, castrated without testosterone replenishment, and castrated with subsequent testosterone replenishment. In the third group, castrated rats were given testosterone and killed at 24-hour intervals over 4 days. Specimens of the penis, small bowel, and prostate were obtained from all animal groups. Immunohistochemical identification of intraperitoneally administered 5-bromo-2\'-deoxyuridine, a thymidine analogue, was performed to detect new DNA synthesis. The incorporation of this molecule into high molecular weight nuclear DNA served as a measure of DNA synthesis and, hence, cellular proliferation. RESULTS: Testosterone-replenished castrated rat penile stromal cells, both cavernosal and spongiosal, showed more enhanced proliferative activity than those of both castrated unreplenished and uncastrated control rats. Trichrome staining permitted the differentiation of responsive cell subsets. Various cell types were found to respond to replenished testosterone, including myocytes, fibrocytes, endothelial cells, and Schwann cells. Pronounced DNA synthesis occurred as early as 48 hours after the replenishment of testosterone. For purposes of technique validation, sections of small bowel were examined, in which glandular crypt cells would be expected to show rapid turnover. The nuclei of these bowel sections stained in all animal groups throughout the experiment, thus validating the staining technique. The technique of castration and testosterone replenishment was validated by confirming the known response of rat ventral prostate to androgen withdrawal and replenishment. CONCLUSIONS: Our findings provide evidence that testosterone induces cellular proliferation and new DNA synthesis in the penile erectile tissue of castrated rats. This response to testosterone is not limited to one cell type, but rather is multicellular.

Proposal: trauma as the cause of the Peyronie\'s lesion.
J Urol 1997 Jan;157(1):285-90 (ISSN: 0022-5347)
Devine CJ; Somers KD; Jordan SG; Schlossberg SM
Department of Urology, Eastern Virginia Medical School, Devine Center for Genitourinary Reconstructive Surgery, Sentara Norfolk General Hospital, Virginia, USA.
PURPOSE: We define the cause of the occurrence of Peyronie\'s disease. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Clinical evaluation of a large number of patients with Peyronie\'s disease, while taking into account the pathological and biochemical findings of the penis in patients who have been treated by surgery, has led to an understanding of the relationship of the anatomical structure of the penis to its rigidity during erection, and how the effect of the stress imposed upon those structures during intercourse is modified by the loss of compliance resulting from aging of the collagen composing those structures. Peyronie\'s disease occurs most frequently in middle-aged men, less frequently in older men and infrequently in younger men who have more elastic tissues. During erection, when full tumescence has occurred and the elastic tissues of the penis have reached the limit of their compliance, the strands of the septum give vertical rigidity to the penis. Bending the erect penis out of column stresses the attachment of the septal strands to the tunica albuginea. RESULTS: Plaques of Peyronie\'s disease are found where the strands of the septum are attached in the dorsal or ventral aspect of the penis. The pathological scar in the tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa in Peyronie\'s disease is characterized by excessive collagen accumulation, fibrin deposition and disordered elastic fibers in the plaque. CONCLUSIONS: We suggest that Peyronie\'s disease results from repetitive microvascular injury, with fibrin deposition and trapping in the tissue space that is not adequately cleared during the normal remodeling and repair of the tear in the tunica. Fibroblast activation and proliferation, enhanced vessel permeability and generation of chemotactic factors for leukocytes are stimulated by fibrin deposited in the normal process of wound healing. However, in Peyronie\'s disease the lesion fails to resolve either due to an inability to clear the original stimulus or due to further deposition of fibrin subsequent to repeated trauma. Collagen is also trapped and pathological fibrosis ensues.

Effects of exogenous testosterone on isolated rabbit corpus cavernosum penis.
Acta Pharmacol Sin 2000 Feb;21(2):139-44
Yildirim S; Utkan T; Yildirim K; Sarioglu Y
Department of Pharmacology, Faculty of Medicine, Cumhuriyet University, 58140 Sivas, Turkey.
AIM: To study the effects of exogenous excess of testosterone on the constricting effect of phenylephrine and endothelium-dependent and -independent relaxing effects of different agonists in the corpus cavernosum penis (CCP). METHODS: Specimens of the CCP were obtained from rabbits testosterone for 1 and 2 months and untreated for 2 months after testosterone-treatment for 2 months. Preparations were mounted between two parallel platinum electrodes in organ baths. Responses to phenylephrine, carbachol, and sodium nitroprusside were obtained by adding the reagent cumulatively to the bath. RESULTS: The phenylephrine-induced contractions were decreased with no change in agonist potency (pD2 value) after both 1 and 2 month testosterone-treatment and did not return to control values in corpus cavernosum obtained from rabbits untreated for 2 months after testosterone-treatment for 2 months. Testosterone treatment for 1 or 2 months increased the endothelium-dependent relaxations induced by carbachol and decreased the relaxations elicited by electric stimulation but did not affect the relaxations induced by sodium nitroprusside. These relaxant responses to carbachol and electric stimulation did not return to control values in corpus cavernosum obtained from rabbits untreated for 2 months after testosterone-treatment for 2 months. There were no significant changes in the pD2 values calculated by agonist-induced relaxation responses in all testosterone-treatment groups compared with control group. CONCLUSION: The exogenous excess of testosterone plays an important role in erectile function by a direct action on the relaxant and contractile responses of CCP.

The effect of testosterone on androgen receptors and human penile growth.
J Urol 1997 Sep;158(3 Pt 2):1113-8 (ISSN: 0022-5347)
Baskin LS; Sutherland RS; Di Sandro MJ; Hayward SW; Lipschutz J; Cunha GR
Department of Urology, University of California San Francisco Children\'s Medical Center, USA.
PURPOSE: Recent rat studies suggest that early exposure to exogenous testosterone accelerates the loss of androgen receptors and compromises eventual penile length. In humans we hypothesize that down regulation of the androgen receptor is not the mechanism that stops penile growth. To test this hypothesis we investigated the effects of androgen deprivation and supplementation on the developing human penis. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A total of 15 normal human fetal penises at 7 to 19 weeks of gestation (mean plus or minus standard deviation 12 +/- 4.5) was divided in half sagittally. Specimens were grafted beneath the renal capsule of male athymic nude mice or nude rats. Three groups of host animals were prepared, including 10 with no testosterone that were castrated at grafting, 15 with testosterone and 5 with super testosterone in which 50 mg. testosterone propionate pellets were implanted subcutaneously at grafting. Each fetal penile specimen was its own control, since half was implanted into an intact animal and the other into a castrated or super testosterone host. Six weeks after grafting the specimens were analyzed for gross size (length), histology and expression of androgen receptors. RESULTS: All human fetal penile specimens grew from the nadir size and appeared as white exophytic growths on the surface of the host kidneys. Normal grafts were larger than castrate specimens (mean 6.9 +/- 2.1 versus 3.9 +/- 2.1 mm., p = 0.014). Mean length of the super testosterone specimens (7.3 +/- 2.3 mm.) was not significantly greater than that of normal specimens (p = 0.797). Histological analysis revealed that all specimens were composed of viable penile tissue. Cellular density of the castrate penises was approximately 2 times greater than that of the normal and super testosterone specimens (40.6 +/- 5.9 versus 25.1 +/- 2.8 cells per cm.2, p &amp;gt; 0.001), as calculated on enlarged micrographs. Supraphysiological doses of testosterone did not change the histology compared to controls. Immunohistochemical localization revealed androgen receptors expressed throughout the corporeal bodies, surrounding stroma and penile skin with intracellular localization to nucleus. The mean proportion of cells expressing androgen receptors was higher in the castrate (29.4 +/- 5.2 cells per cm.2) than in the normal (24.0 +/- 3.7) and super testosterone (24.7 +/- 4.5) grafts (p = 0.005). However, in regard to growth there was no change in the proportion of androgen receptor positive cells among the groups. CONCLUSIONS: Testosterone influences penile growth, possibly as a result of extracellular stromal expansion. The number of androgen receptor positive cells in the human fetal penis did not change among the castrate, normal and super testosterone hosts. These experiments support the hypothesis that penile growth cessation is mediated by mechanisms other than down regulation of the androgen receptor. Furthermore, these data support the hypothesis that early administration of androgen to prepubertal male individuals does not result in a shorter phallus in adulthood.


Anyways, I\'ve tried the same type of thing using TestroGel. It has the same basic ingrediants but it is very expensive ($98). You can however order it online at DPS Nutrition\'s website for much cheaper, around $60 maybe. I was a hardgainer until I tried this stuff....



Well I was doing PE for about 6 or 7 months and didn\'t see gains of any kind. I also lift weights a lot and had the Testrogel for that. I said \"what the hell\" and tried it on my penis. I gained about half an inch in about two months using it about an hour before I started my PE for the night. Unfortunetly I have seen no gain as far as girth.


Hey guys, I actually have a prescription of Androgel, but am nervous as hell about putting it on my hog. The papers and my doctor said don\'t get it near your balls AT ALL. (it\'ll stop your own produciton of testestoserone).

But the promise of a bigger dick overshadows the negatives doesn\'t it?


To prevent the AndroGel from coming in contact with my testicles, I\'ve been wearing two pairs of underwear, the first one I pull my penis thru the hole in front, apply the AndroGel, then I wear the second pair other over it to hold my penis up and away from my testicles. It\'s been working well so far. The last thing I want to do is shut down my body\'s own testosterone production, so remember QOD (every OTHER day).

On a slightly unrelated note, I\'m convinced that people who jelq more than QOD are not giving their penis enough time to heal and rest and could be causing vascular damage. There are a lot of adamant PJers who swear by a 6 day a week schedule, but I\'ve found there is no reason to power jelq two or more days in a row as healing (growth) occurs on rest days. Anyway, if you\'re not incorporating AndroGel into your workout, you\'re missing out bigtime. I\'ve found the PJ device makes erections harder but that\'s about it. I had basically no growth in the first 2 months of using the PJ device and then about 1/2\" in one month after incorporating the AndroGel.

This stuff is identical to waterless hand sanitizer in every way except it contains 1% testosterone. I have a legal prescription, but if one were to want to transport it, say, from Mexico in a small waterless hand sanitizer bottle, no one could possibly tell that it\'s anything else. Just a thought.


For all of you that use Androgel, I really need your input. The dilemia is whether to use Androgel before or after ? A few of the posts that I have read said to apply about an hour before. I can understand this logic as the packaging also noted due to weight training. Some have gained .5\" - 1\" in a month or so period. One has gained 3.5\" (6.5\' - 10\" in 6 months). Then, some say to apply after routine. Those individuals also reported gains. Saturday morning was my first experience using Androgel. I applied it after my routine. I am really clueless about what I was to expect but didn\'t feel or notice anything.

As the Army slogan states, \"be all that you can be\" and that\'s my intention but I want to maximum benefit; so, before or after?


You did it correctly, I\'ve found it best to apply AndroGel AFTER the jelq routine so you can get the maximum benefit of penetration into the skin. This transdermal medication should be left on for 24 hours for maximum benefit, however the instructions that came with my prescription say that one can shower or swim after just 6 hours of application.

Here\'s my usual routine: jelq for 20 minutes, hit the gym for a workout, then hit the shower. After this, I will put on a pair of brief underwear, and pull my penis thru the hole in front and then apply a thin stripe of AndroGel on the top of my penis from base to tip and work it all around the shaft, then use the blowdrier for a quick dry. Then I put a second pair of underwear to hold my penis away from my testicles. This method has worked great so far.

Most important: use the above routine every OTHER day to keep the AndroGel from affecting your testes\' testosterone production, and to give your penis a day off to rest (grow). After the first month, you\'ll find there\'s no need to Power Jelq more than every other day with this method.

Congrats on the RX, and have fun with it!

I read up on the whole andro line and the development today. Also I found that you can buy topical testostorone at the local GNC here. It is 75 dollars and is in a spray form.

Testrogel and/or Testroxin is not the same as Androgel!

Testrogel attempts to boost testosterone, while Androgel is testosterone.

Androgel is much more effective, and harder to obtain.

--

I don\'t have anything to gain here, but I just hate to see you guys throw away money on this stuff. I have tried both Testrogel and Testroxin for bodybuilding, and have had better results just taking the main ingredients ANDROSTENEDIONE (Androstene, Andro) orally. The gels are just a topical form of andro, NOT testosterone.

These companies are trying to get people who want AndroGel, but can\'t get a prescription, to purchase their stuff instead. However, it will not give you the same results.


shoesize12 says he\'s gone from 6.5 to 10 inches in 6 months using Androgel. (This is a little more than 1/2 inch every month)
AndroJelqer has gained 1/2 inch in 1 month also using Androgel.
So basically the average gain in length from using Androgel is 1/2 inch every month.

Here is a quote from Rob:
\"Testrogel and/or Testroxin is not the same as Androgel!
Testrogel attempts to boost testosterone, while Androgel is testosterone.
Androgel is much more effective, and harder to obtain.\"












Hmm seems like this stuff works....

I wonder if u guys could find some online site that ships worldwide( or atleast germany) I\'ve reached a length plateau ,now I\'m hoping to brake the double-digit barrier with some freaky testo gel /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif - seems like it is very possible !

[B2C]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The biochemical theory is that 4-AD converts to testosterone which converts to DHT locally in the skin and in the lymphatic fluids of the genitals. Conversion is very efficient there. DHT is well-understood as the hormone that drives penis and clitoris growth in youths. MDs will commonly prescribe it for adolescents with underdeveloped genitalia. Of course, 4-AD may have direct action but that has not been reported.

I\'ve simply stated the facts of my experiment - I rubbed this stuff on for three weeks and the damn thing grew by a third to half an inch. It absolutely felt longer and heavier to my hand. None of the other supplements I was taking at the time had any reputation for sexual impacts.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

No DHT for me thank you! I have no desire to increase my acne or begin to experience male pattern baldness. Good story about the topical though... Might have to give it a try on my next cycle!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

B2C

[Whitehall]

Two questions: where is your head and where is your dick?

They are some distance apart, are they not? By applying the lotion locally and transdermally, it soaks into the skin and then into the local lymphatic fluid where it stimulates the local cells to multiply and hence your penis to grow.

For it to affect your head, it has to leave the local lymph fluid and enter the blood supply and then travel to the scalpe and face. Given the low doses one applies and the dilution factor between the penis and the rest of the body, you\'ll not see much systemic effect.

But, it\'s your head - do with it what you will.

[B2C]

Glad you got it figured out. Good luck.

B2C

[Genome335]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Two questions: where is your head and where is your dick?

They are some distance apart, are they not? By applying the lotion locally and transdermally, it soaks into the skin and then into the local lymphatic fluid where it stimulates the local cells to multiply and hence your penis to grow.

For it to affect your head, it has to leave the local lymph fluid and enter the blood supply and then travel to the scalpe and face. Given the low doses one applies and the dilution factor between the penis and the rest of the body, you\'ll not see much systemic effect.

But, it\'s your head - do with it what you will.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Roid Rage!........ [cough] [cough] /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Andy]

I just read that the head is where the brain is supposed to be ... must be quite close to my dick then. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Hungry]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I wonder if u guys could find some online site that ships worldwide( or atleast germany)

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

The site Whitehall mentioned:

http://www.1fast400.com (\"http://www.1fast400.com\")

ships worldwide, that\'s where I got mine. It arrived 2 days ago (got through customs ok, they didn\'t inspect it), and this morning I applied it for the first time. I\'ve done a fair bit of reading myself, and I\'m quite satisfied with the risks versus the potential benefits. So it\'ll be interesting to see the results. I\'ll post them on here after a couple of weeks.

Whitehall, did you apply to the head as well, or just the shaft?

On an unpleasant note, I gave myself a little trim around the shaft this morning, just to make it easier to apply, but the trimmer slipped out of my hand and took a chunk of skin out of my scrotum. Ow ow ow!

Chicks like scars ... right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


Hungry

[Andy]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">In Antwort auf:</font><hr />
Chicks like scars ... right?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you think they\'ll notice a little scar on your scrotum with a 9\" dick in front of them ?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Chicks like scars ... right?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you think they\'ll notice a little scar on your scrotum with a 9\" dick in front of them ?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Chicks like scars ... right?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Do you think they\'ll notice a little scar on your scrotum with a 9\" dick in front of them ?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I wouldn\'t even notice if a man painted his balls to look like the Mona Lisa if I had his hard 9\" in my face.

[tallmacky]

Are women even attracted to balls? I mean is it something that they want to see? Is a man\'s ballsack cute?

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Are women even attracted to balls? I mean is it something that they want to see? Is a man\'s ballsack cute?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

The entire package is quite lovely

[**DONOTDELETE**]

We look at and notice everything and it all gets kissed, petted and fondled. Balls are cute, too, yes, definitely, they are of interest.

I don\'t think anybody\'s gonna jump up and run away at a nick or a scar, it\'s just part of who you are, no big deal. Not to worry.

[Andy]

.. scars in that area tend to fade away really quick too. Must be the structure of the skin, but scars (little ones at least and I don\'t think you kinda scalped your scrotum) on the shaft or the scrotum vanish over a year.

[Hungry]

Its ok guys, it\'s not serious or anything. I can take it, I\'m a big boy now.

Ok ok, I cried a bit at the time, but not much!


Hungry

[MOBLEYC57]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Are women even attracted to balls? I mean is it something that they want to see? Is a man\'s ballsack cute?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Years ago, in an Adam &amp; Eve magazine, they had ball covers (knitted). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif That should make them reallllllll cute, if you want cuteness!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Hungry]

It\'s been exactly 1 week since I started, with some interesting results already.

I was going to tell you the results so far, but now that I\'m here I\'ve decided not to. You\'ll have to wait until next week.


Hungry

[tallmacky]

hahhah why next week?

[Hungry]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
hahhah why next week?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

No reason. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Hungry

[Jones]

Thoughts of a BioChem major

I have been searching the internet and i found several independant verifications of topical androgens increasing penile size. most anecdotal evidence was from Anodrogel users (1% test)--reported increase was consistently .5 inches/per month. However, i believe 4-AD, whose only difference from test is two protons at carbon #3(seemingly small, but moderately significant to the enzyme world), probably will have the same effects. They both metabolize to DHT and several other androgens, so if some further metabolite is our penile growth culprit, then the case to use a topical 4-AD is quite strong. it is possible that these androgens saturate the corpus caverosum and simply ampify gene expression to levels never naturally achieved in the body since puberty. However, if testosterone is the molecule which actually causes the penis to grow, a topical 4-AD would still work. it is used by bodybuilders b/c it needs 1 liver enzyme to convert to testosterone. This happens in the liver and probably would to some extent in the penis tissue. Topical 4-AD would allow for a consistenly elevated concentration of test in the penis. The concentration would likely not be as significantly great as w/ androgel, but only a consistently elevated test amount may be what is needed, and not a consitently skyrocketed amout. I have my roids and report results in 30 days.


Note: I am well aware that i am taking a steroid/prohormone. Approx 1/100 bodybuilders that use a 4-ad cycle report alopica and significant BHP (bodybuilding.com). they use ~300 mg per day orally, or about ~50 mg ether gel and or topical (increased abosrbtion). I, and you, if you do this, would only need about %20 of the normal spray amout to cover the penis. this low dose should minimize side effects. just watch the hair line while your on it, and, realistically, (making sure to cycle it, ie 4 weeks on, 2 weeks off), side effects would probably be minute. i\'ve had a little expirience with PH\'s and (everyone\'s different), but i speculate risk of \'roid rage\' at this low dose, would also be very very small.

PS. in early 2004 there will be no more andro products. the bill in house is considered unblockable. not trying to pressure anyone, but this option will only be convenient for about 8 more months.

P.P.S: very, very, very soon, someone will try to cash in on this if it is for real. honestly i couldnt care less, im 6 inches and would love nothing more than to level the playing field via a PE method that is for real.

[CptKipling]

No more PH??

That\'s bad news.

[Jones]

Well write your politicians... if you guys all dont, there probably wont be any more legal phmones. they are banning DHEA and all androgens..., as soon as someone says, \"hey, phomones are chemical derivatives of DHEA and test, hmmm, just like all andro products\" !!!


Everyone who reads this should go to Bodybuilding.com, they instuct you how to write all your politicians at once, in fact it takes 22 seconds.

[Sagacious1420]

Hey Jones-

Is 4 weeks on and 2 off a safe cycle to use? I thought that these products recommend 2 on and 4 off to avoid side effects. I know that WH did a 3 week cycle w/out any problems...just curious.
Personally, I\'d have to say that, hypothetically, if given the choice...I\'d rather have an average sized dick and still have my hair and no shrunken testicles.
But, hey, that\'s just me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Jones]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Hey Jones-

Is 4 weeks on and 2 off a safe cycle to use?

...

Personally, I\'d have to say that, hypothetically, if given the choice...I\'d rather have an average sized dick and still have my hair and no shrunken testicles.
But, hey, that\'s just me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Honestly, id say a 4on/2 off is quite conservative. I know some body builders that do 8on/2 off. Yes there are risks, but i just think, if i get some gains but the risk is only 1/1000 of something serious (the hair loss thing is easy to avoid, once you notice it wont actually be too late--just stop using it). And i did a 3 week cycle of 1AD, considered a powerful steroid, and my testis are doin just fine. I kept a close eye on my body. The reason why roids and PH\'s are so popular, is because they can be used safely. And you should remember that the makers do say, \'dont do more than 3 weeks on\', but thats for the full dose. since your serum T levels wont get as high as they think when they gave you that 2-3 estimate, it would be safe to extend that period.



I understand your reservation bro. One think i told myself is ill get on creatine/protein/NO2, but im not stupid, ill never touch roids. I had a bad expirience with a chick, it really downed me so i started changing things about myself. yeah the penis growth thing is a little pschological, this chick i was messing around with later told me she thouht i didnt have \'much\' down there. I guess i have this thing where i cant now be a 6\" average dick and have confidence. i mean the stupid fact is that some chicks measure a man\'s masculinity by penis size.

[Hungry]

Hi guys.

Well, two weeks are up, so I\'m going to report what\'s happened.

Week 1:

Girth overall increased by about 1/8\". At the base it increased by about 1/4\". I was actually a little thinner at the base than the rest, but that was the first thing to increase. Now my penis is nice and even. Length did not change at all. Overall it was encouraging, though.

Week 2:

Ermm, not much changed. Girth increased marginally. No change to length. I get the feeling this isn\'t going to do anything for the length.

The other thing I noticed is an accelerating rate of hair loss. Nothing major yet, but it\'s been increasing gradually over the last two weeks. It could be related to something else and not the 4-AD, I don\'t know. I wouldn\'t have thought two weeks was long enough to have a noticeable effect.

At this point, I don\'t think there\'s any point in continuing as is. The negligible benefits over the last week don\'t make me hopeful for next week, and I don\'t want the hair loss to increase any more.

What I think I\'ll do is take a couple of weeks off for everything to normalise (hopefully), then start a routine of standard PE techniques, and apply 4-AD only after jelqing, three times a week. I don\'t know how much it\'ll help, but it\'s a more sustainable pattern of use and less likely to cause problems, including hair loss.


Hungry

[druid]

hey guys. you really got my interest but I have a few questions.

1) I am 23 y/o. I do the natural PE exercieses ( I gained about .25\" in girth from jelqing over about 4 months time -- not as much training as those sites suggest but about 3-4 times a week of 100 quailty reps). would this stuff speed up the gains??

2)What is alopica and BHP ??

3)Also I am only 23 but every since I tured 20 y/o I have had a small balding spot on my head. I shave my head now. would this stuff make the hair loss even greater?

4)and is this stuff permanent? I would have no problem using this stuff for a couple of months IF it is permanent. but once I make the gains I want to get off it, but I don\'t want to lose my new penis gains. because I know when you use steroids/prosteroids to increase muscle mass, the gains only stick while your still doin the stuff, ie when you stop you will eventually lose the new muscle.

thanks.

[Jones]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
hey guys. you really got my interest but I have a few questions.

1) I am 23 y/o. I do the natural PE exercieses ( I gained about .25\" in girth from jelqing over about 4 months time -- not as much training as those sites suggest but about 3-4 times a week of 100 quailty reps). would this stuff speed up the gains??

2)What is alopica and BHP ??

3)Also I am only 23 but every since I tured 20 y/o I have had a small balding spot on my head. I shave my head now. would this stuff make the hair loss even greater?

4)and is this stuff permanent? I would have no problem using this stuff for a couple of months IF it is permanent. but once I make the gains I want to get off it, but I don\'t want to lose my new penis gains. because I know when you use steroids/prosteroids to increase muscle mass, the gains only stick while your still doin the stuff, ie when you stop you will eventually lose the new muscle.

thanks.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



1. Using a topical androgen and penis excersizes, someone in a public forum reported 4 inches in 8 months. Once he got on AndroGel, he said his gains were .5 inches per month.

2. Alopecia is hair loss. BPH Benign prostate hyperplasmia.

When on 4-AD, you may begin to see a few extra hairs in your comb. Once you observe this, stop using. Beging again in two weeks with a lowered dose, perhaps at every other day. The DHT serum levels in your blood has become to high, it acts on hair follicules(sp), causing hair loss. The hair you loose is usually gone forever.

BPH. Your prostate benignly enlarges. Your risk for prostate cancer slight elevates. If your dad has prostate cancer, stay the hell away. I noticed frequent urination, a common side effect of BPH. This tells me i had a little BPH. Once of the roids, everything returns to normal in this area

3. Yes, the increased DHT may accelerate hair loss. So watch your hairline closely.

4. Excersizes are designed to stretch the corpus caverusum. BUT -- these topical androgens, topical DHEA, or 4-AD, or TEST, is designed to increase gene expression and cell repair. Your penis wont shrink anymore than it did after it grew in puberty. (that should be zero BTW)

THe reason why those Penis pills are temporary, is becase Trib an Maca and Yohimbe spike your LH and cause a blood rush to the penis when your aroused. Basicly more blood means more size (~.5) inches, rock hard erections, but when you go off, you go back to normal size errections. -remeber, penis pills dont grow your penis.

The theory is... uhh, well just read:

TESTosterone(yohimbe) + GH (aminos like arginine) = penis growth

Well its a nice idea, but it doest work like that.

[druid]

hey monesrule, have you seen any progress?

[druid]

just found out that monesrule was banned.

what about you hungray, any new results??

[Hungry]

Well, like I said in my last post, I\'ve decided to stop for a couple of weeks since I was getting an increasing amount of hair loss (not sure if it was from the 4-AD though).

But, I do have something interesting to report. While I was using the 4-AD, my erections became rock-hard. So hard that I was almost afraid to tense too hard because it felt too strong. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I figured it was just a temporary thing, but it\'s been several days now and I still get that hard. It\'s like I\'m wielding a steel bar. It\'s fantastic! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I\'ll be starting it up again in conjunction with jelqing in about a week and a half.

Why was monesrule banned anyway? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Hungry

[druid]

i am not sure. someone told me in a PM.

[TBiRD]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
But, I do have something interesting to report. While I was using the 4-AD, my erections became rock-hard

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Yeah dude , I already guessed something like that would happen ! Afterall, DHT happens to be the main fuel for erections. While erect , u constantly burn it ! The more u have the longer u can burn /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif By using the 4-AD u created more than optimaL DHT levels in your genitals!

Btw , this is another thing that I learned while doing recent researchwork on propecia. Propecia block DHT and can POSSIBLY cause weak libido/weak erection in some men.
Why only some , why not everybody ? Because everybody is different , some men seem to rely on testosterone burning to fuel their erection (so they remain sexually uneffected by propecia) , others however on DHT...(some on a mix of both).

Well , my 4-AD was send out yesterday , hope it arrives soon...lets see if I can get that final inch to 9\".

[Whitehall]

I\'ve read reports that while Propecia will often affect male libido negatively (the reported numbers are shaded by the drug company), once you STOP taking it, you have a \"libido rebound\" and you get really horny for a while. I haven\'t tried it myself but it makes some sense.

Here\'s another lession on 4-AD application. I\'ve reported here some irritation from application of home-brew. Well, I found the problem - I was using a roller ball applicator. The saturated solution was clogging the ball and I was using too much pressure to get it to come out. The roller ball was rubbing my delicate penile skin too hard causing the problem, not the juice!

I\'ve switched to a dropper to apply - a dropper-full then spread it around manually. With this method, I\'ve not seen the irritation I saw with the roller ball and home-brew.

Dang thang is STILL growing!

[Jones]

So how would you sum up your total gains? Are you using anything else, or just ergopharms 4ad. ive been on a topical 4AD for 5 days now. ill post results at end of month.

Are you using any pheromones topically, or did you empty your roller bottle and ad the 4AD. i guess id really like to know what this homebrew is because i really need to get some gains.

are you doing any PE excersizes?

[Whitehall]

To recap my experiements:

I first used Ergopharm Andro Spray for three weeks by dabbing it on morning and night (usually). After three weeks I stopped. I estimate I grew one third to one half an inch in length and a proportionate amount in girth - volume therefore increased substantially. It really felt different! I don\'t think my hand shrunk!

After about a month I had noticed no shrinkage, suggesting that the growth was permanent. No specific exercises were performed.


After a month I thought I would try again but my Ergopharm was gone and had been discontinued by the manufacturer. I tried to make my own version dissolving 4-AD in Everclear. It didn\'t dissolve completely so I\'ve got a saturated solution in 75% ethanol. Ergopharm has an added \"penetration enhancer\" that my solution lacks. This homebrew I put into a rolltop applicator and tried using that for a while. Unfortunately, the roller irritated my skin so I stopped after a few days.

I\'ve switched from a rolltop to a dropper bottle last week. This seems to have no problems with irritation so I conclude that the irritation was due to mechancal application rather than chemical harshness. In the last week of application, once a day usually, I\'ve started to notice early impressions of continued growth.

What I should do is start with the exercises. I\'d appreciate any guidance on good exercises, especially for building girth.

Hope this summarizes my experiences and clarifies any confusion.

[Jones]

thanks for clarification

yeah, isopropyl mystriate is that \'penetration enhancer\'. Its in my bottle of lectric shave, its just specially denatured alcohol tinted green w/ that I.M.. I think if one bought some rubbing alcohol and 4-AD powder and Lectric shave you could make a decent homebrew.

However, i think it may be easier to buy something already disolved. but if you know a few things about chemistry, or are a chem major like me, then it will probably work.

One thing worth expirementing with is buying 1-test powder, (a strongly androgenic compound, better than DHT even), and making a transdermal delivery out of it. or just buy t-1 gel, its already made up, ($100) at 1fast400.com. Ill bet 1AD (aka 1-test) would give excellent results, if DHT is our culprit. 1-test does convert to testosterone, its not a prohormone, its an honest to goodness steroid. it is a DHT metabolite. i took it for 3 weeks, and had very few side effects. if someone is having had luck w/4AD -&gt; give 1AD a shot.

[druid]

thats it I am getting it. Is the stuff that whitehall posted a link to in the begining good? thanks.

[Jones]

DONT GET THE 4-AD Z4 SPRAY ($20), IT BURNS! Buy a legit gel, like 4aderm($40). hope i got to you in time

[druid]

his is what whitehall suggested

http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37&amp;products_id=53 (\"http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37&amp;products_id=53\")

it is a topical gel. would this be good to use?

what would be a good regimem?


I haven\'t ordered it yet.

[Whitehall]

That wasn\'t EXACTLY what I recommended but it does look like the right stuff for our application. However, I haven\'t personally tried this product yet.

1fast400.com is a good company too - I\'ve ordered lots of stuff from them and service is great.

I\'d start with a once a day application (after a shower?) and maybe saw palmetto concurrently. You might later go to morning and evening applications if you tolerate it well.

Does someone have exercise instructions they can share with me? Doing both at the same time might be synergestic.

[Jones]

Im not sure saw palmetto is neccesarily the way to go. theres a chance that we want testosterone to be converted to DHT (which is blocked by saw palmetto), DHT may be what causes the penis growth. so who knows.

[druid]

whitehall, go to www.thundersplace.com (\"http://www.thundersplace.com\")

it is a PE website, and all the jelqing, squeezing, stretching stuff is there for free. along with lots of people to ask questions.

[Sagacious1420]

Hey All-

I just finished a test of 4-ADerm. In an attempt to duplicate WH\'s method, I did 2 applications/day for 3 weeks. Overall, I tried to duplicate what he did, just w/ a different product. My observations are as follows:

1. 4-AD is a lotion (not a gel) and appears to be more of a colloidal suspension, as opposed to a solution. After squirting some into my palm, I would have to rub my hands together to get a more consistant mixture.

2. It takes 2-3 squirts to get a sufficient application.

3. It causes a very warm (almost hot) sensation upon application and you will experience a tingle for a few hours after application. No skin irritation, though.

4. I got NO GAINS in either length or girth, flaccid or erect. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

5. I did experience a brief and rather mild T rush after application...maybe 15-20 minutes.

6. I did notice some hair loss. I have a area of my hair line, on the forehead/temple area, that has looked as though it would, likely, be an area of recession at some point in the rather distant future. Well, guess what...this area has shown noticable recession in the last week and a half or so. This coincided w/ an atypical clogging of the shower drain over the last week or so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

7. I observed no change in the appearance/size of my testicles.

In conclusion, I found no measurable change in penis size. And IMHO it is not worth losing my hair for either no gains or minimal gains. Your results may vary. Make your own decision, but I know what mine is for certain.

Note: I don\'t know how concistantly WH applied 2 times/day, but I found that it was not always feasible to make 2 applications each day. If I was going out to meet up w/ a lady friend, then I didn\'t apply in the p.m. because (a) I didn\'t want her to get a mouthful of what I would assume is very unpleasant tasting stuff, (b)I didn\'t think it was wise to expose a lady to ingesting something intended as a topical solution and potentially harmful (read the warning label about ingestion) and (c) I didn\'t want to shlep my 4-ADerm w/ me and try to (discretely) apply at her place after we were done w/ our fun. Can you imagine the Q\'s you\'d get if a girl happened to find you applying something to your dick, especially right after sex? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Hope this is helpful guys.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

p.s. Anyone want to buy some slightly used 4-ADerm? Just PM me.

[Sagacious1420]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'m going to share the way I grew my slong by half an inch in 3 weeks.

Some of you have guessed the answer but I was being coy. Plus, I thought I had a better way but that notion had technical problems:

Here\'s how to do it. Order a transdermal androstenediol spray such as:

http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37&amp;products_id=53 (\"http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37&amp;products_id=53\")

There are others out there - Ergopharm\'s Andro Spray was what I used but it has been discontinued.

Smear a little on your penis every night and every morning after showering.

You may want to take saw palmetto or an anti-estrogen concurrently for prostate protection. ZMA might help to but I haven\'t tried that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


his is what whitehall suggested

http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37&amp;products_id=53 (\"http://www.1fast400.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37&amp;products_id=53\")

it is a topical gel. would this be good to use?

what would be a good regimem?


I haven\'t ordered it yet

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Actually, WH, I believe Druid is correct w/ regard to the link you recommended.
BTW, I was using ZMA Fuel while testing the 4-ADerm, but for other reasons than supplimenting the 4-AD, though. There is also a small amount of saw palmetto in my daily multi-V/herbal/trace mineral suppliment. Could it have mitigated results from the 4-ADerm? Perhaps. I couldn\'t say for sure, though.

[Jones]

I doubt the saw palmetto did any significant. thanks for posting

[Jones]

http://legalgear.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=254&amp;osCsid=2a479dc150 050ee085e0dda309ce649a (\"http://legalgear.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=254&amp;osCsid=2a479dc150 050ee085e0dda309ce649a\")


you can buy 1g of 4AD for 1$.

If you know how to make a transdermal delivery than this is cheap! very little monetary risk

[Jones]

Assuming nobody is lying here. these are odd results. Could the users of this method list the follow (including whitehall).

List Age, Current Penile Length, ethnicity, Any meds(&amp; vitamins) your on.

Id like to just make sure that there is anything strikingly different between you two

-we do have a poor \'control\' here, you both didnt use the same product. Even though the bottle says 4AD, it doesnt mean we know it is. the chance is remote of course. actually, once whitehall reports new growth from a different 4AD source, we can conclude HIS growth was from 4AD for sure.

It may be, that during puberty, someone\'s test level may have been acutely hampered at a critical period in growth (sickness/depression), so now the new test level has allowed his penis to fulfil its genetic potential. maybe Sagacious1420\'s \'progammed\' to be 6 inches, and since hes already 6, theres no room for gain. not that you are 6, im just using the average for demonstation of a possible explanation. so somone who can genetically be bigger than what they are, might only benefit. just a theory. we need more research. id hate to sound like im pestering you whitehead. but is there anything else you did aside from what you told us, also, how ofter over this month long period did you ejaculate. it sounds like a weird question, but abstaining from sex changes your body\'s chemistry.







jjk

[Jones]

http://legalgear.com/store/ (\"http://legalgear.com/store/\")

This site sells dirt cheap prohormone by gram. you can also buy small amounts of all the things you need to turn these powders into transdermal.
Homebrew
1g 1-test 4.50
IPM 4 oz 5.00 20%
DMSO 4 oz 5.00 30%
isproply OH (solvent) .50 (drugstore) 50%

$15.00


You need to know how to make dilutions and stuff, but that should be easy enough. just get a contrainer that you know volume in mL. remember, .05 ml per drop is pritty safe to say.

Just do the math so you apply maybe 10 mg per dose. Total # of doses, 100. I think ill stack this w/my current 4AD.

(which sounds small, but 50mg orally, which i did, you can feel in your muscles)

[Sagacious1420]

Gee, thanks for generously extending your trust, Jones. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif BTW, I have a great deal of respect for WH; I was quite hopeful and rather confident that I would see positive results...so much for a placebo effect.

Granted we had extremely different results and, yes, we have virtually no effective controls to help draw possible conclusions. Unfortunately, the product that WH was using is no longer available on the market, IIRC.

According to 1Fast400, 4-ADerm is believed to be the best product on the market due to its delivery system. Check out the following excerpts from their website:

\"4-ADerm (Avant Labs)
Active ingredients: 4-androstenediol (50mg/ml)
Other ingredients: Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, octyl salicylate, d-limonene, linoleic acid, oleic acid, glycerol, carbomer 935.

AndroSpray (ErgoPharm)
Active ingredients: 4-androstenediol (50mg/ml)
Other ingredients: Ethyl alcohol, Isopropyl myristate.

Androsol (Biotest)
Active ingredients: 4-androstenediol (50mg/ml)
Other ingredients: Isopropyl alcohol.\"



\"....of great importance to take into account diffusion through the epidermal and dermal regions, and a vehicle which could facilitate the diffusion of our drug through these regions would be a highly efficacious addition....

....Here, 4-ADerm has the clear advantage, due to the inclusion of propylene glycol (along with glycerol, linoleic acid, and oleic acid) in the formulation, which gives it a dual mechanism with which to traverse the skin. Propylene glycol is much more hydrophilic (Log P of -.92) than our androgen (Log P of around 3), thus the portion of the androgen dissolved in it will pass easily through the aqueous dermis and epidermis (11), meaning the afore mentioned backup in the stratum corneum will not occur. Neither Androsol nor AndroSpray have an ingredient that provides this enhancement....

....4-ADerm likely gets some lipid extraction with d-limonene (27, 28), though perhaps not as much as AndroSpray. However, the amount that does occur is more likely to be beneficial, as it will aid the diffusion of the hydrophilic propylene glycol. The observation of a synergistic effect with propylene glycol and terpenes such as d-limonene support this (29)....

Androsol does not have penetration enhancers....

....4ADerm has a big advantage again in this area, with AndroSpray probably being second. Both oleic acid and linoleic acid (and possibly octyl salicylate) have been shown to work through this mechanism (3,19,20). IPM might as well, but this is not clear (30).

Octyl salicylate, in particular, was found to provide a SIX FOLD enhancement in the delivery of testosterone, via a topical spray, compared to an ethyl alcohol vehicle (31).
This is EXTREMELY relevant as 1) our androgen is almost identical to testosterone in terms of molecular weight, log P, etc.; 2) the delivery method is quite similar to the real world usage of the products in question in that it utilized thin layers of application and measurements were carried out for only 24 hours (similar to the timespan between bathing); and 3) that it is compared to a formulation using only an alcohol as the vehicle (a formulation almost identical to Androsol\'s).

It is pretty close to conclusive proof that 4-ADerm would kick Androsol\'s ass, even without our other ingredients....

....Skin Thickness (L) -- again, fairly straightforward, the thicker the effective area of the skin barrier -- meaning the stratum corneum, the dermis and epidermis, the slower the rate of penetration. We cannot change our skin thickness, and though we can change the site of application, the areas with the thinnest skin, such as eyelids and scrotum, are areas we do not really want to use.

This one, once again, depends on the user....\"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I can see how age might be a factor(e.g., natural T levels in relation to age), I believe that WH is about 15 yrs. my senior. However, I believe we both take steps to boost our T levels, e.g. ZMA in my case.

Not sure how penile length would be a factor. Granted it is believed that there is supposed to be an upper limit regarding penile growth, but IIRC this has to do w/ length much more than w/ girth. Thus, I\'d think that I would, at least, find some gains in girth.

I could see how ethnicity could be a relevent factor: I am Scottish, English, Cherokee and Chickasaw...mostly Scottish and English.

No Meds for me.

My daily suppliment has way too much stuff to list here. It is called Men\'s Blend from SuperNutrition brand. They have the ingredients listed on their web site (\"http://www.supernutritionusa.com/\").

BTW, all 3 products listed above contain the same type androgens and the same concentration, so I can\'t see how anything other than the delivery system would separate the three. And, supposedly 4-ADerm is the most superior.

I think an important factor to consider would be individual skin thickness, which could prove to be a more valuable factor...and one that we couldn\'t determine easily, sooooooo....

If your theory about illness or depression during puberty delaying one\'s ability to reach their genetic potential for maximum penis size is correct, then I would think that this would work in my favor. This is about the time that my parents divorced and I did go through a period of distinct depression during puberty, so I don\'t know about that one either.

Individual T levels and/or the efficacy of conversion to and uptake of DHT , might be a more meaningful factor to consider. Don\'t really know...just thinking out loud, so to speak.

You definitely brought up some interesting and thought-provoking point/Q\'s, Jones. Thanks for the post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have to say that I am really disappointed that I acheived no gains...only lost (forever) a noticable amount of hair. It totally sucks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif So much for being a guinea pig...I think my days are over. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Jones]

thanks for the post - ok, im going on the working assumption that 4AD is our culprit, and delivery methods arent crucial.


Yeah, you and I are very similar. I had some depression in my teen years thanks to the divorce. its also probable that were both here discussing this topic for a more physcologically related thing. people w/ divorced parents statistically have tons more insecuirity. kids who loose there parent to DEATH even recover better than those whose parents divorce. when i read that in a study, i began to realize how sociologically handicaped a large portion of USA\'s youth must be.


I think im going to do more research on what DHT and TEST do in the penis. We need to know if TEST causes the growth, becuase some prohormones target one or other.


Dont get completely discouraged. Remeber, some people on this forum say theyve gotten gains from just putting pheromones on their dick. DrSmellThis says he was expirimenting with cerain mixtures and says he found something. of course in a PM he told me he couldnt tell me what it was that made his penis grow, b/c hes going to try to cash in on it. ...but ill bet its either rone/none/nol or maybe couplins.

Ive read some papers about 17-deoxy steroids in the j. of steroid chem. they found that androstenol was made from androstenone, (they found the enzyme), but that doesnt explain why nol concentation is always higher in the body. there must be some feedback mechanism for none. i digress... but, androsterone, is not a 17-deoxy androgen(note: it is seperate from the other pheromone pathway altogther, telling me that it may not be a phermone) and is actually quite popular compared to nol/none in the oragnic chem. world. Ill BET it has androgenic activity, it MAY even cause PE, i think someone needs to try that out. im going to see if theres a place to buy cheap RONE. (and it should be cheap, its EASY to make).


jjk

[Sagacious1420]

Hey Jones-

I agree that 4-AD is the \"culprit\", but I don\'t think it is correct to assume the the delivery system is irrelevent. You should check the 1Fast400 site that WH posted. There is much more extensive and scientifically detailed info there, as well as an extensive list of research references that could send you in the right direction. I suspect that you are quite capable of deciphering more than I can...whether it be the research referenced or the info on the website, itself. I only provided a few chunks that seemed most relevent...there is certainly a lot more detailed info on the site.

That\'s awesome that you have the time and motivation to seek out varoius science journals. I wish I had more time to search for more info on various Physics topics, myself. I waste far more time here than I should or often have the time for...but it usually keeps me out of trouble...ususally. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Keep on posting! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Andy]

Haven\'t read this thread for a long time, but one thing I noticed:

It\'s impossible to lose hair during the application. Three weeks aren\'t enough to damage the follicles and in most cases the hair won\'t fall out until the follicle timeout occurs anyway. They just don\'t grow back after the 3 month timeout. The only way to verify that the application caused any damage is to wait some months and watch.

[Hungry]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It\'s impossible to lose hair during the application. Three weeks aren\'t enough to damage the follicles and in most cases the hair won\'t fall out until the follicle timeout occurs anyway. They just don\'t grow back after the 3 month timeout. The only way to verify that the application caused any damage is to wait some months and watch.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Andy,

Yeah, that\'s what I thought, which is why I said it may not have been the 4-AD. Still, it\'s odd that Saggy and I both had the same thing happen. Personally, I wasn\'t even looking for it until I noticed a significant increase coming out in the shower. It\'s stopped again and I\'ve been off the 4-AD nearly a week now. Very odd.

Still, I\'m willing to give it another go at a reduced dose in about another week. We\'ll see what happens then, I guess. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Hungry

[Elana]

My offer still stands....if any of you guys need any help with application or anything else........

I do love this thread /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Whitehall]

Elana,

You\'re just too, too kind with your generous offer. If I lived nearby....

As to our male experimenters, you have my condolences if this hasn\'t worked out for you as well as it has for me. I will stand by my observations - pity I hadn\'t taken more precise measurements.

For my personal history, I had my first child at 18 and got a vascetomy at 21. Finally got it reversed at age 35. In spite of claims that it makes no difference, the vascetomy seemed to drain me of libido. It has been suggested that the self-absorption of sperm sends a signal to the body to stop wasting energy on sex - it felt like that to me although subtle. The libido was restored within months of the reversal.

Maybe a libido loss is too strong a phrase - it was more a sense of futility. The reversal sure fixed that! Now two new kids later....

One\'s penis supposedly shrinks with age in any case, maybe what I saw was a reversal of the extra years\' shrinkage. However, I\'d say that it was more than just a recovery of lost size.

The hair loss does seems extreme for the small dosage and the remote application point. However, men do have wildly different DHT receptor concentration in head hair follicules - that\'s why some men go bald early in life and some never do.

My suggestion for using saw palmetto is based on prostate concerns. It\'s pretty close to your dick, after all, and the 4-AD and conversation products like DHT could easily diffuse from your dick to your prostate. Saw palmetto seems to have effects largely in the prostate. Personally, I did follow up my first cycle with a saw palmetto extract just to be sure.

If you want the real deal, you can go to a doctor and have him write a prescription (good luck!) to a compounding pharmacist and get a DHT lotion made for you. The guy at yohimbe.org will sell you a list of doctors that will do that.

This guy wrote the book on medical knowledge of sex:

http://personal.coslink.net/kpezzi/The%20Science%20of%20Sex.htm (\"http://personal.coslink.net/kpezzi/The%20Science%20of%20Sex.htm\")

He writes of trying DHT lotion and raves about it. His experience with DHT was even better than mine with 4-AD, as one might expect. Still, the 4-AD method is cheap and it has made a difference for me.

[TBiRD]

@Sagacious1420 and everybody else !

If you plan on using the 4-AD , DEFINETLY take saw palmetto to make sure that your prostate and hairline remains uneffected ! There are no sideeffects to saw palmetto , and it will not kill your libido - It doesn\'t completely block DHT (like propecia) , wich is good , because u (might) need it to fuel your erections , rather than that it helps to unbind the dht from receptors (for example @hair folicles) all over the body , so it naturally exits your system through urination :


Read this study : Definetly can\'t be bad to use it while on 4-AD :


Saw Palmetto in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia.

CLINICAL PRESENTATION OF ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA

Alopecia is a general term for hair loss and requires further description. Androgenetic alopecia (AGA) is the most common cause of hair loss, presenting as loss of hair over the top (vertex) and the anterior mid-scalp area (receding hairline) in affected men. The term androgenetic alopecia denotes that both a genetic predisposition and the presence of androgens are necessary to cause expression. AGA is also referred to as male pattern hair loss and typically begins gradually in men in there 20s with incidence increasing 10% per decade.

Presence of Androgens must be present for baldness to occur

For centuries, it has been observed that the presence of androgens was necessary for Androgenetic Alopecia to express itself. In 400 BC Hippocrates observed that eunuchs (castrated males) did not become bald. Aristotle noticed this also.(1) Through out history it was also observed that the Italian Castrati (boys that castrated in order to train them as adult soprano singers, a practice which was ended by Pope Leo XIII in 1878) never became bald. Researchers knew that AGA had to be associated with the male hormone testosterone. It comes as no surprise that current research shows that the balding scalp contains miniaturized hair follicles and increased amounts of DHT compared to a hairy scalp. This suggests that it is the excess presence of dihydrotestosterone in the scalp tissue that causes AGA in those patients genetically predisposed.

Pathophysiology of Androgenetic Alopecia

In the body testosterone is broken down by an enzyme call 5 alpha reductase to dihydrotestosterone. (DHT). DHT, a potent metabolite of testosterone causes a gradual, progressive shrinkage in the length and caliber of genetically programmed hair follicles. This process is called miniaturization. Miniaturization results from shortening of the anagen phase and a decrease in the sit of the dermal papilla and volume of matrix cells. Consequently, each succeeding hair cycle results in production of smaller, finer hairs which contribute less to the overall appearance and density of the hair. These biochemical events occur at the cellular level of the hair follicle. Because the dermal papilla is highly vascular, it is continuously bathed in circulating androgens. It has been demonstrated that the dermal papilla is rich in androgen receptors and is the primary target of androgen action. (Choudhry et al., 1996) Cells in genetically programmed hair follicles contain the enzyme 5 alpha reductase. 5 alpha reductase converts testosterone into the more potent DHT (Chen, Zouboulis &amp; Orfanos, 1996). 5 alpha reductase is found in higher quantities in the scalp follicles of affected men. (Sawaya &amp; Price 1997) Androgen receptors in the cells of the dermal papilla bind with circulating DHT, forming androgen receptor complexes. This results in the androgen effects of miniaturization on the hair follicle. (Randall et al., 1992)

In conclusion, by inhibiting the breakdown of testosterone to DHT, hair loss can be prevented or at least kept to a minimum.

Treatments for Androgenetic Alopecia

5 Alpha Reductase inhibitors

Drugs in this class work by inhibiting the enzyme 5 alpha reductase, which limits the conversion of testosterone to DHT (Chen et al., 1996) Finasteride (propecia) is the first drug in this class to undergo extensive clinical trials in men. Finasteride has selective activity against 5 alpha reductase. As a result, serum and follicular DHT levels are significantly reduced (Dallob et al., 1994).

Saw Palmetto extract

Studies have shown that saw palmetto is an effective anti-androgen. It acts in a similar way that propecia does. Firstly it lowers levels of DHT in the body by blocking 5 alpa-reductase. Secondly Saw Palmetto blocks receptors sites on cell membranes required for cells to absorb DHT. Although no studies have been carried out on saw palmetto and its relation to hair growth, studies have been performed on the use of Saw Palmetto in the treatment of benign prostatic disease, which is similar to androgenetic alopecia in that it also depends on the production of dihydrotestosterone. All of the studies that have been performed to date show that Saw Palmetto is an effective anti-androgen and has shown conclusively to be effective in the treatment of benign prostatic disease.

One may assume from this that since Saw Palmetto is an effective anti-androgen and is used in the treatment of prostatic disease then it may also be effective in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia.

Vitamins

Some vitamins have been show to inhibit the activity of 5 alpha reductase and subsequent production of DHT. These vitamins therefore may be of great benefit in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia or preventing baldness. There has been studies in which zinc is shown to inhibit 5 alpha reductase activity and it has therefore been concluded that zinc is beneficial in disease and disorders related to an excess in DHT. There has also been studies which have show that vitamin B6, Zinc and azelaic combined together even in low concentrations resulted in a 90% inhibition of 5 alpha reductase activity.

Recommendations

Propecia has been tested and found to be effective in the treatment of AGA. However, its list of possible side effects include sexual adverse experiences. It also affects PSA levels, which is the screening indicator for prostrate cancer.

Saw Palmetto has been proven safe to use. It has no known drug interactions and is well tolerated by most people. The only noted side effect in a very small percent of people is upset stomach. Saw Palmetto can be taken with zinc, vitamin b6, and azelaic acid for a synergistic effect.

Conclusion
Normal healthy hair grows about ½ inch per month. It may take several months before any effects are noticed. Where the area is completely bald, hair may not grow, if the follicles are dead. It takes years for the hair to thin, so one must assume that it will take time to also reverse the process. Keeping the hair from further thinning is success in itself.

[Jones]

Yes, some bodybuilders take DHT orally, i think it has a different common name though, its very anabolic but the side effects are massive. so did the people at yohimbe.org show that this DHT cream increases penis size, or just libido and erections?

[druid]

Ok but does saw palmetto block receptors in general or just receptors on the prostate? because if it blocks them in general would that be counter productive? i mean the whole purpose of this 4-AD stuff is to raise DHT levels (in the penis) hoping that the receptors latch onto the DHT and make the penis grow? Wouldn\'t Saw Palmetto interfere with that? frankly i don\'t give a sh-t if my hair falls out. I started permaturely balding when I was around 20 y/o. I now shave my head bald. I do care though about the prostate enlarging.

I have another question for you guys. Like I said I started permaturely balding @ 20y/o. I have a full chest and back of hair (well when I ain\'t shaved and waxed) and the hair is thick and course and black. In fact I am pretty hairy all over -- arms, legs, etc. In fact I had to start shaving in the 8th grade(around 13 y/o). Now apprently I have no shortage of DHT(or whatever causes those things). So where is my 10 incher!!!!!????!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Jones]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Ok but does saw palmetto block receptors in general or just receptors on the prostate? because if it blocks them in general would that be counter productive? i mean the whole purpose of this 4-AD stuff is to raise DHT levels (in the penis) hoping that the receptors latch onto the DHT and make the penis grow? Wouldn\'t Saw Palmetto interfere with that? frankly i don\'t give a sh-t if my hair falls out. I started permaturely balding when I was around 20 y/o. I now shave my head bald. I do care though about the prostate enlarging.

I have another question for you guys. Like I said I started permaturely balding @ 20y/o. I have a full chest and back of hair (well when I ain\'t shaved and waxed) and the hair is thick and course and black. In fact I am pretty hairy all over -- arms, legs, etc. In fact I had to start shaving in the 8th grade(around 13 y/o). Now apprently I have no shortage of DHT(or whatever causes those things). So where is my 10 incher!!!!!????!?!?!?!?!?!?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



Saw palmetto blocks the enzyme that converts TESTOSTERONE to DEHYROtestosterone DHT.

Well, we think its the increased and sustained high concentration in the penis which causes growth. your hair loss BTW might not be from DHT, but hair follicules that are overy sensitive to DHT. we know so very little.
s

[Jones]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
My offer still stands....if any of you guys need any help with application or anything else........

I do love this thread /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Come by Raleigh, NC anytime you want

[druid]

well elana I do live close to you and I will be ordering the gel in the next couple of days /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Whitehall]

The function of saw palmetto is still uncertain. Likewise, it might not be DHT that causes prostate problems. I think some of the statements we\'ve seen here are ahead of scientific understanding.

What I do know is that saw palmetto helps reduce prostate size when inflamed. I also know that aromitizable androgens can cause my prostate to get bigger and that saw palmetto helps that.

An assertion that (4-AD converts to DHT) AND (that DHT reaches the prostate) AND (that saw palmetto works on blocking DHT in the prostate) is a causal chain not proven, to my mind. Parts of this chain are well-understood, but not all.

We hope that 4-AD converts to DHT in the penis (it should) but would be happy if 4-AD directly caused penis growth. We don\'t know if the topical 4-AD or its metabolites get into the prostate but that is a risk. We don\'t know if saw palmetto blocks DHT effects in the prostate - enlargement could be caused by estrogens!

It does seem clear that DHT causes follicule death in men to various degrees.

[druid]

it would be curios if prostate problems were caused by estrogens. Maybe, with the advent of modern socitey there seems to be estrogens every where. soy protein, the hormones injected into our meat supply, and I have even heard that certain polymers used to make plastic drinking bottles might act estrogens. I for one have stop drinking (Well for the most post) out of those plastic bottles.

[Jones]

Well, its not estrogens, because DHT cant aromatize. we know that for sure. this article is comprehensive:


The role of dihydrotestosterone in benign prostatic hyperplasia, Urology, Volume 61, Issue 4, Supplement 1, April 2003, Pages 2-7
Culley Carson, III and Roger Rittmaster

[Jones]

In the following study, rats were castrated, then given testosterone replacement. they found that the penis cells grew back to a greater extend than before castration.


Androgen induction of DNA synthesis in the rat penis, Urology, Volume 52, Issue 4, October 1998, Pages 723-728
Ridwan Shabsigh, John F. Raymond, Carl A. Olsson, Kathleen O\'Toole and Ralph Buttyan
SummaryPlus | Full Text + Links | PDF (700 K)


The following study showed that a DHT blocker didnt inhibit the sexual development in neonatal rats. this study is a little more erudite though.


Critical Developmental Periods for Effects on Male Rat Genitalia Induced by Finasteride, a 5-Reductase Inhibitor, Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology, Volume 119, Issue 1, March 1993, Pages 34-40
Clark R. L., Anderson C. A., Prahalada S., Robertson R. T., Lochry E. A., Leonard Y. M., Stevens J. L. and Hoberman A. M.

[TBiRD]

THERE\'S A RAAAAAAAAAAT IN ME KITCHEEEEN - WHAT AM I GONNA DO ! THERE\'S A RAAAAAT IN ME KITCHEEEEN - WHAT AM I GONNA DO !

Dude its rats. I give a rats a$$ about this study - afterall it could be a totally different story for HUMANS !

[Andy]

Hmm ... I was just wondering who needs hair in the end /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. I mean ... what if this stuff really works and you need to lift your leg as soon as you get a hard on after your treatment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I guess nobody is able to look all the way up to your head anymore ;O

[Whitehall]

Seldom will having a bigger dick get you naked with a woman faster. Once you and she are exposed it might help close but you\'re 99% there anyway.

You might achieve some reputation or even fame in certain circles, once you\'ve impressed one blabbermouth.

If you\'re the kinda guy who prances up and down the beach in Speedos, you might get noticed but Speedos are usually a turnoff.

Some women definitely NEED a bigger one and willbe only lukewarm to an average build.

A bigger one MIGHT make you a more satisfying lover but then, there\'s more involved than just size.

What I\'ve seen from years of slightly larger than average, is that more women will complain about pain from too big than will dump you for a guy with a bigger one.

From evolutionary biology, bigger testicles and more semen volume are more important in sperm competition. A bigger dick does give an advantage in pumping out some previous guys\' semen. Hence, a great tool if you\'re perpetually third at the gangbang.

Conclusion - a bigger than average dick is nice to have, but by no means worth risking one\'s health over.

Oh-ho! time for me to put my lotion on.....

[Jones]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
THERE\'S A RAAAAAAAAAAT IN ME KITCHEEEEN - WHAT AM I GONNA DO ! THERE\'S A RAAAAAT IN ME KITCHEEEEN - WHAT AM I GONNA DO !

Dude its rats. I give a rats a$$ about this study - afterall it could be a totally different story for HUMANS !

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">




Dude, rats and humans are 98 percent the same. They use rats becuase most of the time they parallel with human metabolism. I can understand if your joking, but if your not, then well, im afraid your stupid.

[Jones]

Hey whitehall you make good points, but the fact is, women equate masculinity with penis size.

[druid]

ok just ordered it. elana PM me so we can arrange a schedule for you to come over and apply it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Jones]

just dont let her get any on her skin, unless you like girls with mustaches

[Genome335]

I have a good penis size (7 inches) but I\'ve had this problem with my nuts for a few years that they would stay contracted (like when its really cold in other people) even in blazing hot showers (they would just not hang!) I recently started a Tribulus/DHEA/Xenabol (DHT Metabolite) to increase muscle size and after 3 days I was amazed my nuts were normal again!! (I did\'nt expect anything like this to happen) I\'m afraid to go off the supplements now because I dont want to have the effect go away, I also take Saw Palametto to prevent prostate enlargement. Any suggestions?

[druid]

Genome335 -- do you jerk off a lot (seriously)??? I have noticed that when I don\'t jerk off for a while (about 3 days) that my balls hang really low, so much so that they irratate my leg.

besides if elana grows a stache then maybe she could go over to eastern europe and win a beauty contest /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jones]

Yo dude, I will tell you exactly what happened.

The tribulus is spiking your LH (leutinizing hormone), which is signaling your ledyig cells to crank out more testosterone, thus cause a massive blood rush to them. those other ingrediants dont do anything to your balls, except maybe make them smaller. when i first went on trib, my balls ached for a day, they felt huge, and i was horny as hell. stop using the trib now immediatly, because your body will get used to and youll no longer have the horney effect. Save it for when you need to be an animal in bed, or when you want someone to see your balls, as odd as that sounds.

Yohimbe does something similar, and horney goat weed somewhat too.

Be warned that these are also psychotropic

peace

[Jones]

Hey i got a general question, is penis size measured with base pressure to the pelvis bone?

[Genome335]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Genome335 -- do you jerk off a lot (seriously)??? I have noticed that when I don\'t jerk off for a while (about 3 days) that my balls hang really low, so much so that they irratate my leg.

besides if elana grows a stache then maybe she could go over to eastern europe and win a beauty contest /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> I wish my balls hanged that low.... it looks really weird when you have a good size penis and really small nuts.

do you jerk off a lot (seriously)???

lol I have to admit, I used to do it 7 or 8 times a day. Since i\'m on vacation it has been limited to once every 4 days.

--Jones--

I tried Yohimbe before and it almost made me barf, the same thing happens every time I take it, last time I did alot of dry heaving (not fun at all). I\'m not going to stop taking tribulus though, I\'ll probably stop the xenabol after my 3 week cycle. I think xenabol is helping with the nut thing since it\'s a potent anti-estrogen and I ran out of DHEA yesterday so scratch that. I\'m going to buy some milk thistle (for my liver) and continue a low dose of tribulus. Maybe I naturally have low testosterone, who knows but it shure is helping /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Jones]

Just so you know, trib wont help with low testosterone. For me, i always felt a crash when it wore off. i think it stays active for to short a time, but who knows maby it will help you. what is xenabol, i thought you said it was a DHT like PH, but then you said it was anti-e? its possible that this anti-e would help, becuase, well, it sounds dumb but mabye the E is making your testicles retract into an ovarian like position, who knows ????


7-8 times a day! I didnt think it was possible! shiot! goddamn

[Jones]

I have been using 4AD for 1 week.

Its difficult to say, buy i believe there is a 1/8 inch gain in girth and length. its tough to measure, but i think ive seen some growth

However at this point this is a tough conclusion. Bodybuilders say 4AD helps w/ libido and erections, so its possible the extra T is giving me more blood to work with. I considered that this was the logical explanation of what happened to whitehall, but since he said his gains stayed after post cycle, there is some hope. Ill measure again in a week. Inital results are, inconclusive.


See 28 days later. that is one good flicker show.

[EXIT63]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Conclusion - a bigger than average dick is nice to have, but by no means worth risking one\'s health over.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

And it looks great in the shower! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[druid]

Jones - measure with the pressure (or bone pressed) as far as you can. Also measure w/o bone pressed from the side and from the top. Measure girth at the base, midshaft, and behind the head. Just to make sure the effect is even.

[Jones]

good suggestion

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And it looks great in the shower!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

yep /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
lol I have to admit, I used to do it 7 or 8 times a day.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

and then I insisted that he give me back my pictures.

[Andy]

Your nuts are simply scared of your hand ... it\'s the same thing with every pet, if you hit it too often with your hand ;P

[Jones]

whitehall, seen any new growth?

[Whitehall]

I did a five or six day run then ran out of lotion about three days ago. It seemed to swell a bit more but the response wasn\'t as vigorous as the stuff with penetration enhancer but maybe there was more response on the first cycle.

I\'m thinking that there is an induction period - it takes a few days to soak in and the tissues to start to respond. A three week cycle makes sense to me based on my experiences so far.

[Jones]

I love you whitehall. Im on my tenth day and ive gained 1/4 of an inch. If the gains stop here, id be happy, becuase it looks much bigger, even though 1/4 seems like a litte. wekk i hope the gains continue, ill post exactly what i did at the end of my cycle, about 25 more days.

[Whitehall]

Ya Baby! You can have your girlfriends thank me personally.

After I read and replied to the last query on the current cycle, I took a hard look again and I\'d have to say that it gained maybe 0.5 inch in the flaccid state!

Yes, I\'m pleased with myself too.

I was going to mix up some more lotion at lunch, only this time with isopropyl instead of Everclear. However, I got distracted with chores so it will have to wait. Hope 4-AD is more soluble in isopropyl than ethanol.

[Jones]

Does the ethanol burn? Because you should know that isopropyl OH burns, usually i scream when i apply it becuase of the pain. Of course its probably a function of skin thickness, which i bet affects absorbtion and consquently results.

[Jones]

drink ALOT. like 1-2 gallons per day. most PE forums say its crucial.

Be aware that creatine will intially add some length. its affect is to draw water to your muscles, it has similar effects on the penis. creatine monohydrate seems to be a regulator of water storage in the body. i factored .25 inches out my calculations due to that. I think it will get you about 1/4 inch instantly. of course so will yohimbe.

Oh, dont forget to meditate and wish for a bigger dick. Just pray for it, and talk to it. Ive seen PE forums with guys swearing that meditation helped significantly. there is lots of medical evidence that possitive thinking and praying helped patients heal quicker.

[Whitehall]

Maybe we should enlist Elana to \"visualize a big dick!\"

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Maybe we should enlist Elana to \"visualize a big dick!\"

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

That\'s what I am doing 24/7 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif .....

[Andy]

Elana has to visualize big dick in cute pussy already /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[MOBLEYC57]

This forum is getting waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of hand! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Mtnjim]

\"...only this time with isopropyl instead ...\"
Have you considered DMSO instead?

[Whitehall]

I might try DMSO some day soon. A local store stocks it. I\'m a little worried about its reputation for flavoring everything garlic. Of course, that might be an advantage if you\'ve an Italian girfriend!

I did mix up some lotion last night. The kicker was some Tween-80, a dispersion agent/surfactant that is sometimes used as a penetration enhancer (I\'ve got bottles of the stuff!) Although the 4-AD did not dissolve well in isopropyl alcohol, the Tween helped make a decent suspension of 4-AD. I applied it this morning for the first time and it seems to be causing some sort of reaction - more later.

[Mtnjim]

\"...and it seems to be causing some sort of reaction...\"

Now that sounds sinister! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Jones]

Whats the name of the store that stocks it? (dmso). and btw, im adding a cetain 5-alpha reduced androgen to my topical regimen. there is some literature that they might be responsible for virulization in mammals. ill report if it does anything

[TBiRD]

good news : my 4-AD spray arrived !
bad news : F_ckin customs are checkin my stuff right now. chances are , they will send it back /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Anyways , I smooth-talked the girl at the custom to do her BEST, so that the chemists don\'t cause any trouble...

Wish me luck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jones]

druid and tbird. two new guinea pigs.

[krtel]

Well, I know a lot of us, including myself, would like to know if exercises like jelquing work. Well, today on askmen.com, there is a review that explicitly states that it actually does work. Here you go: http://www.askmen.com/love/product_guide/13_product_review.html (\"http://www.askmen.com/love/product_guide/13_product_review.html\")

- Krish

[Whitehall]

Look at the fine print! This article was \"brought to you in part by www....\"

It\'s a commercial, not an independent appraisal.

That\'s not to say it doesn\'t work, just that it\'s not an objective review.

[Jones]

someone is trying to cash in...
https://www.androenlarge.com/androenlarge_gel.cfm (\"https://www.androenlarge.com/androenlarge_gel.cfm\")

But it uses dione, which is crap

[Jones]

Man, the lab rats are really pouring in.

http://www.thundersplace.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&amp;postid=102203#post102203 (\"http://www.thundersplace.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&amp;postid=102203#post102203\")

[Mtnjim]

Then there are those ads in the Mussel mags. for Mesoderm (? I think that\'s the name) enlargement cream that says that since you are going to whack off, use this cream as a lube and get larger. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jones]

God, im afraid to post this becuase im worried people wont believe me. Ive seen more growth. Total gains are just under .5 inches. about 8/18ths of an inch in 15 days. Hells yeah.


I HAVE TROUBLE BELIEVING IT. .... AND I AM ME!!!

[CptKipling]

So what are your current ingredients and sources?

Thought i should dabble /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jones]

4AD twice a day

[MOBLEYC57]

Does anyone know why 4AD is being removed from the shelves? I was looking around on the net to read up on it, and I haven\'t found one place that did not say...\"it\'s no longer available.\" Is that a warning sign? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Just curious. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Anyone? Anyone?

[Jones]

Its becuase of us

[krtel]

How are you using 4AD and are you using it with anything else?

- Krish

[Whitehall]

The FDA has pulled an end-run around legislation permitting supplements. They\'ve decided that certain application methods are under their regulatory authority no matter what the contents are. They\'ve always had authority over injection compounds and have claimed it on intranasal administration. Hence, if you decide that you want to sell an aspirin nasal spray, the FDA would tell you that you have to get their prior approval.

They\'ve recently decided that transdermal application route is now under their authority. Hence the Ergopharm and Biotest sprays are pulled - so you can eat it but not wear it without government approval.

That\'s why bulk sales continue - you make your own route.

http://www.1fast400.com/product_info.php?cPath=77&amp;products_id=58 (\"http://www.1fast400.com/product_info.php?cPath=77&amp;products_id=58\")

Such are the ways of the government - always seeking to expand their authority at the expense of our liberty.

That brings us to the recent Supreme Court decision on the Texas sodomy law. For the first time, the majority reasoning was that \"liberty\", not privacy, was protected by the Constitution. \"Liberty\" is clearly understood as only needing government restraint and interference when one person\'s action harm another\'s freedom. Otherwise, a US citizen is free to do what he or she wants. The \"right to privacy\" was the basis for Roe v Wade and is pretty much a judicial invention - liberty is a much more robust concept and one that most Americans will say was their basic idea of how want their government to work.

This ruling could set the precedence for a large change in US laws. While I am not interested in promoting the gay lifestyle, I will agree that the State of Texas had no business in anyone\'s bedroom, especially mine.

This could be a biggie.

[MOBLEYC57]

Signor Whitehall....always a pleasure! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[druid]

glad I got mine.

[TBiRD]

nothing arrived yet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Seems like I need to kick some chemists ass...grr !!!

Don\'t make me angry , u wouldn\'t like me when I\'m angry !
-The Incredible TBiRD-

[Jones]

Total Gains: .625 inches
16 days

[Whitehall]

All those grateful swinging dicks out there who have improved their phallic stature using the Whitehall Plan may send their contributions to:

Whitehall Penile Research Foundation
#1 DinkyDicky Way
Paul Bunyon City, California

[DrSmellThis]

The Following is a paid advertisement for the Whitehall Penile Research Foundation:

Hi! I\'m Tom Jones, famous Las Vegas star; a man whose reputation -- and certain other things -- preceeds me. You are about to discover one of the truly amazing accomplishments of modern science -- a true beauty lotion, a lotion that makes your very manliness grow to amazing lengths almost overnight! Skeptical? Sound too good to be true? Let\'s hear from one satisfied customer: \"I didn\'t believe it at first...I thought I\'d always be small. But when my wife\'s eyes popped out of her head, and she dropped to her knees in gratitude, I was sold!\"

Yes, you too can have an infallible phallus, a throbbing man-root of mastadon proportion. What if I told you gains of a half inch were possible? Would you be satisfied? How about an inch? What about six? Would you be satisfied then? But wait! What if I told you Mr. Ed would be jealous?

Speaking of which, how would you like to meet the brilliant mind behind all this, Dr. Whiilllllburrrrrh Whitehall! (enthusiastic applause, chants of Wilbur, Wilbur!)

[druid]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Elana]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
All those grateful swinging dicks out there who have improved their phallic stature using the Whitehall Plan may send their contributions to:


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

and send all photos to elanasprivateemail@yahoo.com (\"elanasprivateemail@yahoo.com\")

[Whitehall]

....and one of the Foundation\'s first expenditures will be to send the Founder of the Whitehall Plan to Miami to confer with a recognized expert in the field.

[northstar]

Hello!

I\'m from Thunders, yet unlike my fellow cohorts...find this idea of \"Andro-enlargement\" rather engaging.

Anyway, I received my bottle of 4-AD (Avant) today and if there are anymore testimonials, cautions, directions floating about on the web, the links would be appreciated.

Thanks to all guilty parties.

Cheers!
N.

[shad0ws]

Hey, I will be testing 4-ADerm (Avant Labs) along with 6-OXO to block estrogen and keep the boys happy and possibly single dosings of saw palmetto. I\'m only 21 so I shouldn\'t lose any hair but if I notice anything I think I might go to the store and look for something like a rogane etc, etc.... that way I don\'t block DHT all over just like we want 4-AD to be local as well... I need some input on this from all of you.
I\'m really excited about the 6-OXO as well because I recently gained about 15 pounds from going to a job at Intel. [I hate being at the computer 8 hours a day!] Hopefully the anti-estrogen might give me back some of my old energy to go work out again.

Jones, do you think that the estrogens that convert in the penis might be what\'s causing some of the testers more problems than growth? I\'ve noticed that since I gaind weight that I get bloated and that I had minor gyno so I looked up on webmd that when a male increases body weight that estrogen production rises. That\'s the main reason I\'m considering 6-OXO.... block the estrogen, convert 4-AD in the penis with out worrying about the increase in estrogen from the break down of 4-AD, save the prostate with saw palmetto(this is questionable because I\'m only thinking of 3 - 3.5 week cycles) and have a rogane type thing handy in case of minor hair loss...

Anyway! This sounds fun, I want 7.5\"...

-Adam

[druid]

i will try to measure tonight, though I think it is bigger (after about 8 days of use) it feels more full. I have not noticed any kinda of problems with my nuts, they hang low like they always have (in fact maybe a little lower). Can\'t say about my hair because I shave my head. And I have had no trouble urinating, which i think would be a sign of prostate enlargement. I am 23.

[Whitehall]

So I see the instructions for \"squeezing\" to increase girth but I can\'t find the length extending exercises - jelqing.

Would someone please copy and post here or PM me with them?

Thanks.

[Jones]

\"Jones, do you think that the estrogens that convert in the penis might be what\'s causing some of the testers more problems than growth? I\'ve noticed that since I gaind weight that I get bloated and that I had minor gyno so I looked up on webmd that when a male increases body weight that estrogen production rises. That\'s the main reason I\'m considering 6-OXO.... block the estrogen, convert 4-AD in the penis with out worrying about the increase in estrogen from the break down of 4-AD, save the prostate with saw palmetto(this is questionable because I\'m only thinking of 3 - 3.5 week cycles) and have a rogane type thing handy in case of minor hair loss...\"


Ad far as the estrogens go, the theory defintly has some merit. 6-oxo is a great product, blocks e and really jacks up t. Go ahead and use them both, but if you seen no gains in the first cycle, perhaps try 4AD alone.

jjk

[druid]

Ok here are my results after 8 days. I had some gains. I took a lot of measurements for both flacid and erect but some of the flaccid measurements I feel are tainted because I had trouble not getting erect. IMHO erect is what counts anyway(especially ELBP). So my ELBP &amp; ELNBP went up by 1/8 of an inch and my base and midshaft girth went up by 1/16\". So far so good, no ill side effects (other that having this stinky stuff on your penis -- it smells like suntan lotion mixed with alcohol). It seems to be working but I will reserve my final judgement until about the middle of august (after it has been 1 month -- I started July 8th).

[Whitehall]

So if I got between .33 and .5 inch increased length (estimated) in 21 days, your rate of growth (8 days, .125 inch) is about the same as mine.

[shad0ws]

Ok, so I started with 4-ADerm/6-OXO/Saw P./Vitamins yesterday and felt a little weird for like 2 hours.... Basically like I had ingested something that might make the hulk hulk up lol.... I felt really good and have a lot of energy... A little fuzzy on thinking but definitely an increase in libido and stamina... Strange that it can happen so fast!
The 6-OXO is doing something already, I haven\'t been fatigued or craving sweet foods this morning. That stuff rocks, I\'m going to go on a six week cycle of that (unless there is no signs of growth like Jones mentioned, as well as the saw p.) and a 3.5 week cycle of 4-ADerm...

I figured all of the testers might want to make a quick chart to show what they are doing:

Chemicals:
Saw Palmetto 1 serving of 160 mg
Generic 100% complex multi-vitamin 1 serving
4-ADerm 3 - 4 squirts two times a day
6-OXO 1 serving of 400mg (4 pills)
Decent diet with good amounts of protein.


Starting length 6-1/4\"
Weight 200lbs (normal weight 185-190
Height 5\'8\"
Muscular build (14.5\" around my forearms etc.)
PC exercises regularly &lt;--- by far the best thing ever

[shad0ws]

So I went to a lot of other sites and read some more info on the estrogens and such and decided also to stack on a diindolymethane (DIM) to convert any remaing harmful estrogens to good ones just to be safe. Anyway, I was seeing what the price was for their 4-ADerm and it\'s been discontinued... and at many places not just that one! At avant labs its self they didn\'t even have the topicals anymore.... damn the FDA /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif, I bet they had something to do with this.
So I ordered some more just in case and asked the guy at 1fast400 if he knew why.... I will report when I get an e-mail back.

Damn, I hope pheromones aren\'t next.

[Whitehall]

are available here:

http://www.lemelange.com/oil_liquid_cream_wax_g_-_p.htm (\"http://www.lemelange.com/oil_liquid_cream_wax_g_-_p.htm\")

Besides the Isopropyl Myristate (IPM), I\'m eager to get some macadamia nut butter - ohhh!

[Jones]

Yeah thats a great site. The good people at anabolicminds.com know a LOT about transderms. There is a crash course on transdermals and they give you tons of links to suppliers. Lemange is good cuz you can get bottles and dropers and all that good stuff.


Day 20. 10 days remain until my full report.
Total Gains: Giggidy Giggidy!!!!!!!! (you know, like the perv neighbor in faimly guy)

[TBiRD]

Can somebody who knows what he is talking about , pls confirm this info I found :

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Beta-sitosterol is the active ingredient in saw palmetto berries, which have been used for centuries to treat patients with prostate and urinary problems. The active ingredient in saw palmetto as well as other herbal remedies such as Pygeum, stinging nettle, and pumpkin seeds is beta-sitosterol. Each BETTER PROSTATE capsule contains 300mg of beta-sitosterol. You would have to eat 2 lbs. of saw palmetto to get the same amount of beta-sitosterol as we have in ONE tablet. BETTER PROSTATE is 3000 times more potent than saw palmetto.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


So there is nothing special about saw palmetto besides the beta-sitosterol ! Is it right that I could the same beta-sitosterol out of pumpkin seeds ? They are ALOOOOOOOOT cheaper (and in huge amounts) than the saw palmetto stuff.


Here\'s the link to that page btw : CLICK ME (\"http://avmazon.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Product_Count=2&amp;Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Cod e=A&amp;Product_Code=better-prostate-300mg-6\")

[Whitehall]

It is by no means certain that beta-sitosterol is the active ingredient in saw palmetto, nettles, pygeum, etc responsible for the positive effects on the prostate.

The beta-stuff is marketed elsewhere with no claim of prostate improvement. Hence, this looks like its just marketing BS. I think this stuff is a typical phytoestrogen.

You can try it but I suspect that the biggest effect you\'ll see in an increase in estrogens - that\'s just a guess though.

[Jones]

Has any studies actually quantified the effects of saw palmetto???

[trailblazer]

hey everybody, i am 20 years old and for about two years i have been experimenting with jelqing and other pe exercises and techniques i have learned about on the internet, basically pe forums and thundersplace (if anyone has any questions i would gladly answer them or point you in the right direction). i dont know what i was exactly when i started but i am 7.5 inches long erect and little under 5 inches in girth, but once i found this thread after whitehall\'s post at thundersplace i was very interested and have been following it for about two weeks and i got my 4aderm today. i would like to atleast get up to 8.5 inches in length and 5.5 inches for girth (9.5 is my real goal) and i would really appreciate it if you guys could answer some questions for me before i start using it
- how much should i apply twice a day? # of squirts
- do i need to avoid having it touch anything other than my shaft and head? like my testicles and what not, if yes how do u go about doing so?
- how long should i wait to let it dry and is going to do physical labor or activity ok within an hour of applying? probably since its a weightlifting supplement, but just to be sure
- is 4 weeks on and two weeks off 7 days a week good for results and my health?
- what precautions should i take to prevent any adverse side effects like prostate problems and other problems?
- do u think doing pe exercises along with 4aderm will increase gains? like with lifting weights
along with these questions anyother info would really be appreciated, once i start i will keep everybody posted with my results and what not, thanks again.

[Jones]

Sup People.

Ok. It has been 21 days. I an going to stop my cycle now. I will probably resume in 10 days or so.

Starting ELBP length: 6.5
Ending ELBP length: 7.1

Starting BP flaccid stretch: 6.75
Ending BP flaccid stretch: 7.25

Starting EG: 5.0
Ending EG: 5.45

PE excersizes: Zero. Cardio: Run once per week. Lifting: Once per week. Applications per day:2. Approx mass of 4AD in each ap: 20 mgs. Weight: No fluctuations. Hair line: No change. Sleep: 8 hrs. Masturbation Frequency: zero. Vits: Mg/Zn/Bcomplex. Meditation: Yes.

Some people gain .5 inches, one person gained nothing. Results may vary. I would say overall I am very pleased, and report nothing but sucess.

[CptKipling]

Jones did you evaluate the possible use of other andro\'s with 4AD?

[Jones]

Yes.

An important notice. If your on Finasteride (propecia), or another type 2 AR blocker, expect to see little to no results.

Either go off of the AR blocker, or stop using a topical PH.

[Patriot]

Any other updates guys?

[Jones]

Sup People. (from my post at thunders)

Ok. It has been 23 days.


Starting ELBP length: 6.5
Ending ELBP length: 7.1

Starting BP flaccid stretch: 6.75
Ending BP flaccid stretch: 7.25

Starting EG: 5.0
Ending EG: 5.45

PE excersizes: Zero. Cardio: Run once per week. Lifting: Once per week. Applications per day:2. Approx mass of 4AD in each ap: 20 mgs. Weight: No fluctuations. Hair line: No change. Sleep: 8 hrs. Masturbation Frequency: zero. Vits: Mg/Zn/Bcomplex. Meditation: Yes.

Some people gain .5 inches, one person gained nothing. Results may vary. I would say overall I am very pleased, and report nothing but sucess. currently off cycle.

[Whitehall]

I got bit on the balls by a spider last week (ouch!) so I\'m off the juice for a while.

I did order some isopropyl myristate for future lotions.

[Elana]

Please provide proof.
elanasprivateemail@yahoo.com (\"elanasprivateemail@yahoo.com\")

[Jones]

Actually I am not quite done yet, dont worry though, in a few weeks I will be where I want.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I got bit on the balls by a spider last week (ouch!) so I\'m off the juice for a while.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Holy crap, are you serious???!!! What the hell are the chances of that? Dare we ask how?

Holmes

[Andy]

Bizarre sexual techniques ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif And I thought I\'d be unlucky because a snake bit me in my leg.

[Patriot]

Any other updates from the test mules.
So far 2 gained and 1 didn\'t if im not mistaken.

[Whitehall]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Holy crap, are you serious???!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Serious. At least that\'s what the doctor said. I don\'t think it was related to our treatment regime since it\'s on a different part of the tissues. Antibotics, heat, and time are the remedies. I\'ve a big old stuffed chair on my patio (no rain in California in the summer) and I suspect that a spider crawled up the pantleg of my shorts one night while sitting out there. Gotta protect those family jewels!

[trailblazer]

if you guys would answer these questions for me i would gladly provide you with results at the end and along the way. ive had the 4aderm for three days now and havent used it yet.

- how much should i apply twice a day? # of squirts
- do i need to avoid having it touch anything other than myshaft and head? like my testicles and what not, if yes how do u go about doing so?
- how long should i wait to let it dry and is going to do physical labor or activity ok within an hour of applying? probably since its a weightlifting supplement, but just to be sure
- is 4 weeks on and two weeks off 7 days a week good for results and my health?
- what precautions should i take to prevent any adverse side effects like prostate problems and other problems?

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'ve a big old stuffed chair on my patio (no rain in California in the summer) and I suspect that a spider crawled up the pantleg of my shorts one night while sitting out there. Gotta protect those family jewels

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Gah! A strong argument for arming yourself with the patented Super Duper Bug-Away-brand Jockstrap. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (Sorry.) Here\'s wishing you (&amp; yours--hahaha /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) a speedy recovery. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously though, a buddy of mine got bitten by a Brown Recluse last year...not pretty.

Sorry to add a question on top of your question, Trailblazer (I\'ve no experience yet with 4-AD yet), but in addition to the obvious places /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif, has anyone tried applying the stuff anywhere else for working out, i.e. arms, forearms, etc.?

Holmes

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
i- what precautions should i take to prevent any adverse side effects like prostate problems and other problems?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Somebody mentioned Saw Palmetto a while back, if memory serves me.

Holmes

[Whitehall]

Once a day and apply just to the shaft and head. The scrotum skin is very good at converting steroids to androgens and then those interact with your testicles. I don\'t think that heroic measures are necessary, like double underpants - just apply to the right place and let dry before squishing everything together in tight pants. Apply after a shower, not before.

Personally, I think that three weeks on is plenty; two on, two off would make sense. However, this is based on limited experience and is more a feeling than a scientific-based decision.

Saw palmetto seems like a sensible precaution to keep your prostate from swelling. Can\'t say that it is absolutely necessary nor that it will prevent problems we haven\'t seen yet - just seems prudent.

Above all - PAY ATTENTION to your body while your doing this. Awareness is your greatest safety asset.

[Jones]

I agree with whitehall. Watch your body.


Ok.

Shadows recently PMed me wondering how to make this stuff. I use ISOH and IPM as carriers. Obviously you can throw in DMSO, D-limonine, (which is interesting because L-limonine wont work), PEG40 or Carbomer 940. Be warned though. If you dont adjust the PH it will burn. Youll need pH strips and a base. I have no clue how one would get there hands on cheap NaOH, but I have just been toughing it out.


With this information, just double the ratios to make more of what you need.

I did the math/chem, and heres what you do:

1. Find a 2 oz container. Purchase 99% IPM and 99% ISO OH. http://www.lemelange.com/ (\"http://www.lemelange.com/\") click bodybuilding

2. Purchase PH. Use 3alpha or 4AD. Might considering poping 6oxo if you use 4AD.

3. In a volumetric container, or anything that you can eye ball, mix 3 parts ISO, 1 part IPM. If you use DMSO, make it 2:1:1 ISO:IPM:DMSO.

4. Mix liquid. Transfer solution to 2 oz container. Add 2 grams PH powder. Store extra liquid.

5. Shake, dissolve. Heat prior to application, use a dropper to apply 10 drops.

At 1 gram PH per oz, the solution is approx 30 mg/ml.

10 drops is about 25 mg\'s of PH.
This may be adequate. I use about 40 mg per application.


Id also like to report growth since I\'ve gone off the 4AD. Ill know soon exactly how much, Im not sure exactly why, but I have guess.

[shad0ws]

I didn\'t know not to go lower then the shaft /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif but now I will watch for that. I had noticed that the days that the 4-ADerm got a little lower that my tests. were a little sore, but they haven\'t shrunk or anything. And I was trying twice a day as well, is that too much?

Anyway, this is my update:
Chemicals:
--- 6-OXO (3;6;17-androstenetrione) aromatase suicide inhibitor (anti-estrogen conversion); 400mg (4 pills) a day in the evening for six weeks
--- Indolplex diindolymethane (DIM) (2-hydroxyestrogen to 16-hydroxyestrogen metabolite conversion) 240mg (2 pills morn, night) for 3 weeks, and then 1 pill for the remaining off cycle 3 weeks.
--- Cortistat-PS (phospholipids namely, PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE) (anti-cortisol for any body stress reactions) 2 capsules every other day, evening for six weeks
--- 4-ADerm (4-androstenediol; what we are all here for hehe, growth!) Topical, 3 squirts twice daily (upon whitehall\'s suggestion, probably droping down to one, and watching the scrotum!) for 25 - 30 days (3 - 4 weeks)
--- Saw Palmetto 160mg 1 capsule, evening, prostate health for six weeks
--- Multi-Vitamin 100% complex
--- Coral Calcium 1000mg


What I\'m thinking of adding:
--- Vitamin E for help in conversions.
--- ZMA? I might not need that.

lol 11 pils sucks, but it\'s only six week cycles

Stats:
Starting length: 6.25\"
Age: 21, Male (hmmm I don\'t think females would like giant clits. LOL)
Hight: 5\'8\"
Muscular build
Weight: 205lbs (need this down to 195lbs but I think 6-OXO is helping with that!)
Healing/recovery: very fast

Discusion:
I hope that by using the 6-OXO during this period I slam down the estrogen conversion of the 4-AD to make more of it bioavalible along with turning on the need for my body to keep the tests. in full production mode. Also, the increased test. from the ramp up in test. production might help with growth as well. The reason for the longer run time on the 6-OXO then the 4-AD is to regenerate any limiting effect from the 4-AD (test. conversion) feedback to the hypothalamus after the 4-AD stops.
In taking the DIM I hope to catch any converted metabolites of the estrogen that does convert and get them into a better ratio of 2/16-hydroxest. to limit any effects of the \"bad\" estrogen metabolites.
Cortistat-PS might help because I know messing with my hormone levels might trigger a stress reaction and I want to keep the cortisol levels down to stop any catabolic measures taken by my body during that time.... Through experimentation I found that only 2 pills every other day is PERFECT. I really feel calm and nice at that level. and it\'s at a no more no less balence (plus all of this $hit gets expensive you know!).
With the Saw Palmetto I have noticed that at first I had a little bit more frequent urination (possible sign of enlargment) and then as I kept on with the Saw P. it went away! I say this is a must. We\'ll find out though if it effects growth when I take off the 4-AD and measure.

What do you think about adding Vit. E and ZMA Jones, Whitehall, Andy, DST, etc etc!

Any other suggestions welcome.... I understand the body pretty well, but I think you guys are a lot more informed than I am... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Whew....


-Adam /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jones]

Shadow, your very smart. You sups were a good choice. I wouldnt be suprised if you gained .5 iches in your fist week.

Most experts agree vit E is an important anti-oxident

ZMA, or any zink/mg as long as its not oxide, is good. Take b6 with the two for absorbtion. Zinc is involved in hundres on reactions in the body, same with mg.

3alpha goes directly to DHT via 3HSD. So in my book, its good stuff.

[druid]

i have been taking ZMA also.

[Holmes]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
i have been taking ZMA also.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

What brand is best?

Holmes

[Whitehall]

ZMA might make some sense as a booster. I\'m not sure which enzymes benefit from the extra zinc and which enzymes are involved in out 4-AD-to-T-to-DHT conversion chain. However, I suspect that its worth a try.

I don\'t think there is much to differentiate the various ZMA brands - the raw stuff is pretty simple and fungible. There are some brands that add some vitamin B6 (or 5?) that also helps the conversion processes. That would be worth a little bit.

However, I\'d shop on price.

[TBiRD]

Can you help me to find some online shop that would send the 4-AD spray to germany without problems at the customs office?
The 4-AD I ordered from the site that whitehall suggested is STILL being held back by the german customs office. I think they will send it back /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I haven\'t found any 4-AD sprays in Germany yet (wich doesn\'t mean its not availabe - i JUST HAVEN\'T FOUND ANYTHING YET...maybe other german forum members know better !)

Anotherthing is : Some friends told me that the problems I got at the customs office is because I ordered from America. If you order from other countrys it passes through without checking ! (Just what I got told , don\'t know if its true )

So if you people have any clues/online sites/suggestions , feel free to reply or private message me ! Thx in advance.

[Whitehall]

You can try www.ias.com (\"http://www.ias.com\") but I don\'t think they ship to the EU.

[trailblazer]

thanks.

[DrSmellThis]

Maybe the Trailblazers could last \'till the 2nd round if everyone had an extra half inch (doubling their dicks and longest playoff survival). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DrSmellThis]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
....and one of the Foundation\'s first expenditures will be to send the Founder of the Whitehall Plan to Miami to confer with a recognized expert in the field.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
That would be Don Johnson?

[Whitehall]

Ho, Ho, Ho...

[trailblazer]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Maybe the Trailblazers could last \'till the 2nd round if everyone had an extra half inch (doubling their dicks and longest playoff survival).

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

now why would u want to start knocking the blazers? they may not be very active in the free agent market right now and they let antonio daniels and pippen go, but they still got sheed, bonzi, derek anderson, zach randolph, and others making up a sweet sqaud thats gonna run through the lakers and the spurs.

[trailblazer]

okay, i am gonna start my 3 week cycle on sunday, heres the official stats

age: 20
height: 6\'1\'\'
weight: 160
EL: 7.5\'\'
EG: 4.75\'\'-5\'\'
exercise: lift 3 times a week/stationary bike 3 times a week/leg and ab workouts twice a week/basketball soccer up to 5 times a week
diet: 35-40 grams of fat a day/gallon of water everyday/daily multivitamin
masturbation: none
pe exercises: none
4aderm: twice a day with enough to moderately cover the shaft and head
goal(w/ 4aderm): 8.5/5.5 (hopefully not, but i might have to tool around with pe exercises to reach my actual goal of 9.5/6, i never liked jelqing or stretching always felt more bad than good, im not saying it doesnt work b/c i recommend everyone tries but for me i dont know it didnt seem right)

thanks for your help everybody, i really hope this works.

[TBiRD]

Yo ! I\'m a happy motherfunker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The stuff just arrived and successfully passed through the damn customs office !
However one thing is strange : I got an 8oz bottle of something labeled \"Bioderm Facial Toner Beta Testin\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I guess they sended it \"masked\" this way so it passes through the customs without problems (wich obviously succeeded) [I actually asked them to mark it as a gift so it passes through , maybe they did it this way to make sure it passes 100%)

Still, how can I make sure that it is the real 4AD stuff ? The stuff I have is somewhat milky white and smells like alcohol - Is that how it is supposed to be? I hope so !

Well, I already applied some of it on my shaft + head...30 minutes ago ! I\'m having some funny tingling sensations right now and the feeling like its doing something. Oh and it swell abit after the application. Besides, I have very minor/slight/little pain in my pc muscle area...well that could also be from yesterdays lovemaking session.

Anyways I\'ll be using it twice daily for 3 weeks nonstop ! Then take 2 weeks off. In these 2 weeks off , I\'ll be taking saw palmetto to make sure the prostate remains in good health ! I decided to do it this way , because I think that taking Saw Palmetto AND the 4AD at the SAME time could screw me out of possible results ! I could be wrong though!
DO u think the saw palmetto could POSSIBLY hinder results ?
Or is it absolutely ok to take it ? Jones whats your opinion on this ? YOu said , If your on Finasteride (propecia), or another type 2 AR blocker, expect to see little to no results. Saw Palmetto works in a different way than propecia does, so maybe it will not hinder results. Anybody else any clues ?

[Jones]

Hey. You could boil some of it, then take a MP. Of course you would need access to a lab. Good Luck. Make sure to tell us how many time you have sex/masturbate, as I think its a contributing factor. There are a couple things about saw palmetto. I have yet to find a study that shows it lower serum DHT. And, taking FIN will hinder gains big time becuase you need DHT for growth and repair. I have a suspicion that it doent matter if you take saw palmetto on or off cycle, it does jack. I think an anti-DHT sup could be taken post cycle if your experience prostate issues.

jjk


</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yo ! I\'m a happy motherfunker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The stuff just arrived and successfully passed through the damn customs office !
However one thing is strange : I got an 8oz bottle of something labeled \"Bioderm Facial Toner Beta Testin\"

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I guess they sended it \"masked\" this way so it passes through the customs without problems (wich obviously succeeded) [I actually asked them to mark it as a gift so it passes through , maybe they did it this way to make sure it passes 100%)

Still, how can I make sure that it is the real 4AD stuff ? The stuff I have is somewhat milky white and smells like alcohol - Is that how it is supposed to be? I hope so !

Well, I already applied some of it on my shaft + head...30 minutes ago ! I\'m having some funny tingling sensations right now and the feeling like its doing something. Oh and it swell abit after the application. Besides, I have very minor/slight/little pain in my pc muscle area...well that could also be from yesterdays lovemaking session.

Anyways I\'ll be using it twice daily for 3 weeks nonstop ! Then take 2 weeks off. In these 2 weeks off , I\'ll be taking saw palmetto to make sure the prostate remains in good health ! I decided to do it this way , because I think that taking Saw Palmetto AND the 4AD at the SAME time could screw me out of possible results ! I could be wrong though!
DO u think the saw palmetto could POSSIBLY hinder results ?
Or is it absolutely ok to take it ? Jones whats your opinion on this ? YOu said , If your on Finasteride (propecia), or another type 2 AR blocker, expect to see little to no results. Saw Palmetto works in a different way than propecia does, so maybe it will not hinder results. Anybody else any clues ?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

[Elana]

Keep those pictures coming.....
elanasprivateemail@yahoo.com (\"elanasprivateemail@yahoo.com\")

For the sake of science