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View Full Version : I invite your considered opinion, please.



**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 07:17 PM
Here\'s the situation.

A married man in his early forties has a wife who he loves very much and a daughter who he loves very much, and all would seem to be happy in Paradise, except that said wife has no interest in sex. Wife was pregnant with twins, one was stillborn, the other died soon after birth; a couple of years later, after a difficult pregnancy, she had one child that lived. Her interest in sex since then has been nill and this doesn\'t bother her. Husband has tried to increase intimacy between them, even just taking a shower together, never mind anything more adventurous. Wife has immersed herself in role as \"mother\" and turns a deaf ear.

Husband finds a woman on the side who he sees discretely maybe once a month or so.

What is your opinion of this man?

furburger
05-25-2003, 07:30 PM
I understand why she would not want sex with such possible outcomes. If the two talked about the have sex or not and she decides no more sex, how can she exspect her husband to turn into a monk. If they plan to stay married I think it would be good for the husband to let his wife know that he needs the intimacy of sex, and ask her if he could see someone once in while to take the edge off. That might even get her thinking that she might want to consider not being celibate anymore. I know if I got cut off I would absoulutely go mad and seek relief somewhere. The rosey palm only goes so far after you had the real deal.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 07:40 PM
She hasn\'t entirely cut him off - they have sex a few times a year - it\'s very loving - he makes love to her. He cares for her very much and loves their life together.

His sexual needs are not met.

But to press her any further only upsets her, which upsets the household, so he has chosen to enjoy what they do have, and seek some occasional comfort elsewhere.

Would you say this is a bad man?

Sexyredhead
05-25-2003, 07:45 PM
Well, my opinion of the man is that he\'s in a real predicament. I can\'t honestly say I would condone what he\'s doing--the cheating, merely on principle. OTOH, I\'m not in his position, and if I had a husband doing the same thing his wife is doing, and he wouldn\'t help in any way to fix the problem, I don\'t know what I\'d end up doing to deal with it.

My opinion of the wife, unasked-for though it is, is that she\'s cutting out/ignoring a whole part of her life to keep from being hurt again, and needs counselling.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 07:47 PM
Assume for purposes of this discussion that the wife is not going to change.

Sexyredhead
05-25-2003, 07:50 PM
Ughh, this is a tough one.

I\'d say what he\'s doing is wrong, but what she\'s doing is wrong too. That doesn\'t make him a bad person. That just means two people who love each other very much are going about solving a problem in the wrong way. Both of them are choosing to ignore it and go about their lives in a way that makes things easiest for them both to get by. Does that make any sense?

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 07:56 PM
It makes sense if you are thinking in terms of conventional morality.

If you let go ideas of wrong and right, you could see it this way: she\'s happy, he\'s happy, the woman on the side is happy, kid is happy, marriage is intact.

Sexyredhead
05-25-2003, 07:59 PM
Well, I tend to think of things in terms of conventional morality. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But does it make him a bad person? No. Just a good guy doing the wrong thing. That\'s my opinion.

Why? Is he going through a funk again?

I\'ll back out now so somebody else can get a word in edgewise. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tallmacky
05-25-2003, 08:00 PM
If everyone was happy and it\'s ok why was this question even raised? His love must be conditional. Is true love supposed to break our normal limits?
--------
Sex is not a total need as air, water, and food are. For the first 15/18/20 years of our life we go without sex. He will not die if he does not have sex.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 08:02 PM
It\'s a hypothetical situation, SRH.

His only option other than to go outside his marriage is to resign himself to having almost zero sex, and what sex he does have ... not anything near what he needs.

\"cheat\"
\"bad\"
\"wrong\"

...

seadove
05-25-2003, 08:07 PM
This story is only half about me.

I was divorced from my wife because I found out that not only she does not like to have sex, but also there was no love between us and all she wanted from me was to be a sperm donator, and to enjoy a stable financial condition from my family.

IF she had loved me, I would have made a big effert to stay with her and even live without sex.

Of course we broke off.Nothing in life tastes good without love.

I think this guy has every right to go out and search for sex if he does not find it in his house.But he should also have the guts to tell her to jump in the lake and find someone else for his happiness.Otherwise he would be living in a false and artificial life.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 08:08 PM
He loves his wife and he loves his child.

You still say he should leave his family?

MOBLEYC57
05-25-2003, 09:14 PM
What tis dis ting ve call LOVE? Better than that...what tis not LOVE? If cheating, abusing, hurting, disrespecting, or anything ugly falls under its definition...tis NOT love. Thee most deceitful thing in this world is the heart. Let me explain that with a questione...How many times have you told someone that you love them? Where are they now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif People are very trigger happy with \"I love you.\" Anyone can say one of the world\'s most misused phrase, but...if you watch them carefully, you\'ll find most, are only talking. Words without action, belongs in a book. Those that fall under \"sex is a big factor\" will probably say he\'s doing the right thing. Those that can step from under that umbrella, will say he\'s wrong. The opions will often vary, but who\'s wrong....who\'s right? Love is much stronger than many of us could ever imagine. For those that can\'t imagine it...do the best you can. Family or sex...which would you choose? Seems as though the lady has made her choice, and so has he, if he\'s sneaking out. I was once told, \"You can love someone, and sleep with someone else.\" I beg to differ. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DaVinciKittie
05-25-2003, 09:14 PM
Has the man discussed the sex situation with the wife? I don\'t tolerate any outright dishonesty in a relationship (cheating included, but I should specify that withholding information is not always lying), so I was thinking if he\'d spoken with her about this then they could go from there. Whether that be counseling (although we should assume the wife isn\'t going to change), an extra-marital affair (that the wife is well aware of), or even just acceptance of his situation, making sure the lines of communication are wide open is important. I\'d say, if he *has* spoken with her about this and she understands that he needs sexual fulfillment and still will not do *ANYTHING* to work with him, then he\'s not a \"bad\" man for having an affair, assuming he\'s upfront with her about it. Now, that kind of honesty could also kill his marriage, and if he really loves his family it\'s possible he\'ll choose to just deal with it instead of risking them. That\'s a tough situation.

MOBLEYC57
05-25-2003, 09:48 PM
\"withholding information is not always lying\" Wait til your feet are in the receiving end shoes. You\'ll change your mind very quickly about that, unless it\'s withholding information about a surprise party or something. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif If the lady refuses to change, he\'s going to have to perform one of the most difficult task there is...make a decision. Doesn\'t sound like his lady knows anything about him loving outside the circle, to me. He\'s gonna have to make that ugly decision, or he can just keep sneaking until he gets caught. Ugly on top of ugly on top of ugly. How many times have we seen this...man/woman sleeping outside of the circle because they\'re not happy at home, but will never leave? Decision making....BREATH-TAKING/DEADLY! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Who\'s gonna help him choose? Not I says the dog. Not I says the cat. Not I say the rat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

DaVinciKittie
05-25-2003, 09:56 PM
Have you seen the Friends episode where Monica and Chandler decide they\'ll have absolutely no secrets between them (ok, as I typed that I realized that I\'m one of the youngest people, women at least, here, so it\'s not likely you guys follow Friends- but the reference still stands...)? If you have, you know that there are some things you shouldn\'t share with *anyone*! Now, cheating does not fit into that category, nor does anything potentially damaging to a relationship, so the surprise party bit is more what I was referring to. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I think we\'re on the same level here Mobley. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Whitehall
05-25-2003, 09:58 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That\'s a tough situation.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Tough, but all too common. It works the other way too but maybe not as commonly.

I understand the man\'s situation intimately. He is staying in the marriage to fulfill his promises and his responsibilities. The world will be a better place because of his actions.

She, for whatever reasons, has not or can not live up to her marriage promise (\"Free sex for life\" is one way to put it.) If he makes too big a deal of her failure, it becomes a form of cruelty towards her.

Seldom in this life is there perfect moral clarity. This is certainly an example. I\'m a pragmatist -the moral calculus here is:

1) the wife won\'t care if she doesn\'t know; plus she is not delivering on her promise of physical affection for her husband.
2) the husband is getting what he needs and is giving what he needs to be giving
3) The \"Other Woman\" is getting what she wants
4) the child has the love and resources of both parents.

To make an up-front declaration of taking a lover, the wife is put in a terrible position. She won\'t be looking very hard, either, since discovering her husband\'s lover will just make clear her own failures.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 10:12 PM
There\'s also this: the other woman helps the marriage. The wife is no longer under pressure to do things she doesn\'t want to, and the husband knows he has the outlet he needs when he needs it, so it resolves the unhappiness between them on that one subject, and, yes, most importantly, the child doesn\'t suffer.

DaVinciKittie, I\'ve seen every episode of Friends at least twice.

Somewhere in the \"open and honest\" and \"communication is the key\" equation, discretion got lost, and the idea that some differences can\'t be mended got lost, and those are also facts of life.

Do you notice that as soon as the predicament is presented, folks try to wiggle out of it? Well, the wife should ... yeah but she won\'t. Well, then ... um ... ok, well then ... he\'s bad, no he\'s doing a bad thing ... he should LEAVE his wife and child, that\'s what! Because that\'s honest! or he should tell his wife in her face that he\'s going outside the marriage so she can really feel inadequate ...

This is one subject Whitehall and I agree on absolutely to a T.

I think the man is doing the right thing to stay married and act discretely on his own behalf.

I hate to hear men in this situation spoken of with no compassion for their very difficult circumstances.

MOBLEYC57
05-25-2003, 10:25 PM
No disrespect WH...just my thoughts on....

1) the wife won\'t care if she doesn\'t know; plus she is not delivering on her promise of physical affection for her husband.

PHYSICAL AFFECTION COULD BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN SEX. A HUG, A KISS, CUDDLING, SPOONING, YUDDER YUDDER YUDDER.

2) the husband is getting what he needs and is giving what he needs to be giving

HE\'S GETTING WHAT HE \"\"\"WANTS\"\"\" AND IS GIVING WHAT HE \"\"\"WANTS\"\"\" TO BE GIVING. NO MAN OR WOMAN HAS EVER DIED WHEN THEY WEREN\'T ABLE TO HAVE SEX ANYMORE.

3) The \"Other Woman\" is getting what she wants

UNTIL SHE STARTS WANTING ALL OF HIM. IF HIS SEX IS GOOD, IT WILL END UP THAT WAY. IF HIS SEX IS NOT GOOD, SHE\'LL SETTLE FOR A ONCE IN A WHILE THING UNTIL SHE FINDS BETTER. THE REAL DEAL IN THAT IS...IF HE/SHE DOES IT TO ONE, THEY\'LL DO IT TO ANOTHER. TRUTH IS ETERNAL!

4) the child has the love and resources of both parents.

THE ONLY GOOD THING HERE, DEPENDING. SHOULD THE CHILD GROW UP IN A HOUSEHOLD WHERE MOM AND POP ARE ALWAYS FIGHTING, THEN IT\'S NOT A GOOD THING, FOR THEY WILL SEE LIFE AS SUCH.

Life deals such ugly hands, and we have no choice but to play them out. He\'s got to play. His wife\'s problem is pretty much all mental. Sex a couple of times a year, will drive most men outside of the circle. Just another thing to say thank you for, before I go to sleep. Who\'s right? Who\'s wrong? Who has the right to say? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif As the world turns................ /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 10:32 PM
The sex could be spectacular beyond the other woman\'s wildest dreams but maybe she\'s not a selfish beast and maybe she respects his family and doesn\'t want them made unhappy. Not all women are so venal as to try to take away someone\'s husband/someone\'s father.

MOBLEYC57
05-25-2003, 10:39 PM
Agreed, but anyone with feelings will always want their OWN. How can one not? She doesn\'t have to be a selfish beast, or venal......just human. To some it\'s ugly, but it\'s only until their feet are in the water, that they will truely understand. I was told once that you can never judge a man or woman, until you\'ve walked in their shoes. NONE of us knows what another person goes through. N O N E of US.

tallmacky
05-25-2003, 10:44 PM
This whole thread seems like a justification in third person.

If you were this man\'s wife would you want to know the truth, I think if given the option any woman would choose to know whether or not their partner has been faithful.

I still can\'t believe how much of an over justification this has been, even the original post in this seems a bit bias, it\'s painted as if this man is so devoted and loving to his family, but he has these needs, and has found someone to give them these needs. It may be true, but the likeliness of this being a good guy, and then doing something like this seems a bit doubtful.

Obviously this is a real life situation and probably not far from someone\'s actual happenings /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif. Even the woman who knows this man is married is in the wrong, I could understand if the man did not tell the women, but if the women knows that the man is married she should atleast not submit into sex so quickly maybe not even at all.

I think Mobley is on the money, there is a bit of spin put on this issue, lets just be honest, there is a gray area but in the end there is right and wrong. I can understand the gray area but in this case it does not seem like it has the qualifications for the \"gray area\" instead its a right or wrong.

Maybe if his wife was cheating on him and going behind his back and such that would go in the \"gray area\". He took those vowes, for better or worse, and in sickness and health......he\'s wrong.

By the way as painfully as it is for him to not have sex, it\'s just as bad to force her to have sex, or for her to feel obligated. This issue may not show just how wrong it may be, what if she had breast cancer, and he felt displeased would he have the right to cheat also?

Whitehall
05-25-2003, 10:49 PM
Mobes,

\"No one ever died from lack of sex\"

I have to counter - Can you say you are living without physical affection, without a human touch?

In fact, human touch is vital to life - look at the Romanian orphanages where the babies died from lack of touch. People of all ages need touch and having a decent sex life is a matter of health.

Sorry but one human can not demand that a marriage vow will sentence another a life without human touch.

The medical issue is that when the libido goes, so does all memory of the feeling. She doesn\'t even know what she is missing. It\'s one of the odd tricks of memory - you can look it up.

DaVinciKittie
05-25-2003, 10:58 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
DaVinciKittie, I\'ve seen every episode of Friends at least twice.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Whew! I was really starting to feel rather, err, young, so I hesitated to emphasize that with a reference to Friends. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Geez, I didn\'t mean the guy should throw his affair in his wife\'s face! After reading Whitehall\'s post I realized that\'s how it sounded, and essentially I agree with both of you. The honesty issue is just a big deal for me, so that\'s where that came from. Sorry if I gave the impression that I have no compassion for the family\'s circumstances! Definitely not the way that was intended to come across. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Ok, I\'ll just remove my 25 year old self from this topic that I obviously have no experience with! LOL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 11:04 PM
It\'s true that after childbirth many women have a hormone shift such that they lose interest in sex. They don\'t want it anymore. And they don\'t understand why the man still does. Why can\'t he just \"settle down\"?

It\'s a problem.

Right and wrong and bad and good and should and ought to don\'t help much either.

tallmacky
05-25-2003, 11:06 PM
you have a point FTR (too \"gray\" for me.) I will for once butt my big head out of this, as I don\'t know it all (still think I do) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

MOBLEYC57
05-25-2003, 11:07 PM
\"Mobes,

\"No one ever died from lack of sex\"

I have to counter - Can you say you are living without physical affection, without a human touch?\"

Oh Hell no! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif No one should live without a human touch! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I need to touch rathter than being touched. When I\'m able to touch, I\'m touched. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I\'m talking about his LOVE, and....

\"She hasn\'t entirely cut him off - they have sex a few times a year - it\'s very loving - he makes love to her. He cares for her very much and loves their life together.\"

...from that, with his love, he should make it don\'t you think? That\'s what I\'m talking about. If I didn\'t get to touch I would be put in jail. \"Mobley gets arrested for touching women\" would be the headlines. \"Women all over the world getting touched by the Mad Toucher\" would be another. Somebody\'s getting touched!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Anywho, what I meant was...someone in LOVE should somehow be able to manage it, getting it twice a year. Is that right? Hell no! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif But, it can be done...when it\'s LOVE. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 11:09 PM
Sorry on my behalf, DVK - I have a dial up connection that will drop suddenly and I\'ll lose everything I typed - sometimes my posts from home are a little abrupt because I\'m typing fast and furious trying to get my point across before the connection drops, which it seems to do about every 15 minutes.

I just meant by that to say in passing that I would understand your reference. I loved that show. The whole Thursday night line up used to be so good.

And whatever you have to say on the issue is of interest to me.

MOBLEYC57
05-25-2003, 11:16 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Right and wrong and bad and good and should and ought to don\'t help much either.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Nothing is going to help love. You already have all the answers you need. Even before you typed the post. If I could tell you something to fix it all, I would without a second thought. But I can\'t, no one can, and you already know that too.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 11:21 PM
My point was that it\'s easy to pass judgment.

I don\'t need help.

But people in difficult situations who have judgment passed on them might need compassion and not to be preached about.

That was all I wanted to get across.

tallmacky
05-25-2003, 11:30 PM
Many of the right choices are often the hardest, I could cheat on this test and earn a good grade or study and work for it, I guess we should ask ourselves what is the best in the long run.

Yes, if the man cheats on his wife and has sex with another woman, he is getting a great feeling. Though in the long run I think it will do more harm then good.

(I couldn\'t resist)

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 11:51 PM
Please, tell us more.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2003, 11:55 PM
Tallmacky, here\'s something for you to ponder:

the difference between \"then\" and \"than\"

Could you write me a little essay on that topic, please?

Seriously, though, about the issue I presented - it was gray and you were uncomfortable - so you jumped to the back and white. That\'s what most people do. Feels better, huh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tallmacky
05-26-2003, 12:01 AM
No, I just didn\'t want to start a flame as to what I really thought. Obviously you started this thread for justification/relief, it wasn\'t meant for us to analyze a situation and see how hard a decision can be. It was a personal vent, and you would\'ve liked positive responses right?

Sorry then and than, I know I went to dictionary.com awhile ago but I always seem to forget that, will try harder next time.

Of course, going off on the side without telling your wife and banging another chick may feel good physically but in the long run he is only hurting himself and his family. That pertains to him and those who aid him. Since when has a man cheating ever helped his home life, or his family? since when?

**DONOTDELETE**
05-26-2003, 12:06 AM
Justification or relief from what?

It honestly didn\'t matter to me what the responses were, as long as they weren\'t smug and self-righteous.

Your questions are answered in Whitehall\'s post.

The only thing I wanted to accomplish was that maybe people wouldn\'t be so hard on \"cheaters\" if they knew what the \"cheaters\" were up against.

Then again, maybe not. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tallmacky
05-26-2003, 12:22 AM
What are cheaters up against? The usual cheaters cheat because they feel their own needs matter more the anyone else\'s. Even in this case if he is having sex with a women behind his wifes back, it\'s guess what.....still cheating.

I couldn\'t find the answer to this in WhiteHall\'s post(s)

\"Since when has a man cheating ever helped his home life, or his family? since when?\"

**DONOTDELETE**
05-26-2003, 12:24 AM
No offense, but I don\'t have the energy to argue this with you and that was not my point to begin with. It was to throw the situation out there and see what people had to say.

Your stand on the subject is clear.

tallmacky
05-26-2003, 12:36 AM
I took a harder stance as it sounds like a real story with the name of the thread, and a please as to describe urgency along with the heavy amount of details givin in the original post, it seems to be current concerning matter.

All I requested was an answer to the question, I don\'t mind having it or not.

thanks

**DONOTDELETE**
05-26-2003, 12:42 AM
All right, I will answer your question but I repeat, I did not open this thread to argue with you and I don\'t want to.

The reason sometimes it helps a marriage if the man cheats is because his wife is no longer being pressured for sex. When she no longer feels pressured to do things she has no interest in, and he is being satisfied, they can manage to be happy with all the rest of the good things they have together.

You can think that\'s ok or not think that\'s ok, obviously, but that\'s the answer to your question.

What do you mean by a \"please as to describe urgency\"? Tallmacky, I\'m not being a smart ass, this is a sincere question - are you a native speaker of English?

seadove
05-26-2003, 12:48 AM
I wish half of the women population in the world will be just half as hot as half of the women population in this forum.

Could you imagine how much fun there would be?

Ahhhh.Wishful thinking.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tallmacky
05-26-2003, 12:56 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

What do you mean by a \"please as to describe urgency\"? Tallmacky, I\'m not being a smart ass, this is a sincere question - are you a native speaker of English?


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

By please I meant the last word of the name of this thread, as if this had to be answered soon, as if it was weighing on someone\'s concious /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif. Ahhh I know I have you thinking when you begin those subtle insults. Am I a native English speaker? How could you not know that, I live in Upstate New York, you have heard my audio post(s). Maybe it was a valid question, I am sure you just simply wanted to know if I was a native english speaker. Yeah, I am. I think I am a great speller, but my use of commas and grammer in general is confusing, as of late I have been just typing it up once and not looking back like I did in the past. Plus typing at 90 words per minute doesn\'t help either.

The answer really doesn\'t even work in reality at all. Here are 3 reasons though I am sure there are thousands.

1. He never told his wife about this. All women hate this.

2. A person can\'t be with another person merely as a sexual partner, a emotional bond will happen.(after time after time)

3. No matter what his wife will still feel rejected, and useless.

Above aren\'t the top reasons as I would have to think about that. This is reality your answer reminds me something of a computer program. Obvious bias in you is seen, one has to weigh the issues on both sides. In your account of the situation you make it look as if this strung out guy is getting what he wants, the wife is much happier, and the person helping is just there to help. In reality there are emotions involved your answer sounds more cold then any of my posts. It\'s impossible.... do you have an example? I can point to thousands of examples of cheating husbands corrupting a family.

I am done as of now I will give you the last word.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-26-2003, 12:59 AM
Thanks for your very thorough answer.

I have not heard your audio posts, believe it or not. I sometimes don\'t read your posts in their entirety, I must admit, much less listen to your audio posts.

DrSmellThis
05-26-2003, 02:06 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Here\'s the situation.

A married man in his early forties has a wife who he loves very much and a daughter who he loves very much, and all would seem to be happy in Paradise, except that said wife has no interest in sex. Wife was pregnant with twins, one was stillborn, the other died soon after birth; a couple of years later, after a difficult pregnancy, she had one child that lived. Her interest in sex since then has been nill and this doesn\'t bother her. Husband has tried to increase intimacy between them, even just taking a shower together, never mind anything more adventurous. Wife has immersed herself in role as \"mother\" and turns a deaf ear.

Husband finds a woman on the side who he sees discretely maybe once a month or so.

What is your opinion of this man?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">http://www.citypages.com/savagelove/

This person would probably give an opinion similar to mine, but in a more entertaining manner. Our local underground paper carries his column -- a favorite of mine.

proteus
05-26-2003, 02:49 AM
Marriage to me means certain things, and I wonder what kind of effort this gentleman has made to try and get to the source of why his wife doesn\'t want to have much to do with sex. Could it have something to do with losing a child during childbirth? It\'s possible, but that is speculation on my part but I have a feeling that has a lot to do with it. To me, his energies should be focused elsewhere such as doing all in his power to enter counseling with her to get to the bottom of this. I\'m sure something is troubling her deeply about all of this and it seems rather than him helping her, he is more concerned with fulfilling his needs. To me if he really loved her, that would be his main concern, that is helping his wife deal with the loss of a child.

Secondly, if he absolutely must have sex, then to me the choice is clear - he needs to tell his wife and let her know his situation, and let her know that he will seek this relief outside of his marriage. If there is no honesty, where is the \"love\' is what I ask. I acknowledge this might hurt a lady who is perhaps already suffering greatly, but I\'m sure if you asked her she\'d rather know the truth than be deceived. I know this view may not be too popular here, but just wanted to give my perspective as I have less concern for this man\'s needs than the the psychological trauma his wife had from the tragic death of her child. He is failing her as a husband IMO , and needs to forget for the time being what he wants and help her deal with what she is going through.

koolking1
05-26-2003, 02:51 AM
The man has already found an accomodation to his predicament and he is now content with his situation. The other woman he sees from time to time is content with her situation. The wife is content with her situation. The only problem is that there is a deception. The deception should be removed but the \"how to remove it\" presents a dilemna. The man should now present his wife with the facts. The wife will then have to make a decision. She\'s already made one decision so she\'s certainly capable of making another. After the wife makes her second decision, the 3 parties can then proceed accordingly. There will then be at least 3 new options and the wife will be forced to live with the consequences of her first decision. She clearly did not consider her husband\'s feelings when she made her first decision so, in my mind, she\'s in the wrong and only she can correct things, with yet another decision. Let\'s look at it from another angle - If I were approached by a married woman that I knew and she told me \"look, my husband doesn\'t want to have sex with me anymore but we still love each other for many other reasons or we have to stay together for family considerations, would you take care of my sexual needs?\". I would say no to her now (I\'ve been in this predicament myself). Why? Well, I might fall in love with her and she\'s not going to leave her husband so I am the one who gets screwed in the end. The third party should take the lead as clearly the first two parties never will (the reality) and relieve themselves of what they have unwittingly become: an unpaid prostitute.

koolking1
05-26-2003, 03:01 AM
Now, if the unpaid prostitute doesn\'t mind their situation (I did myself, oh - isn\'t love grand)and just enjoys it for sexual reasons, they can just keep quiet and wait for the [bad word] to explode down the road between the married couple and then just walk away from it all!!!! Might be a week, might be years, but it\'s gonna happen one day.

franki
05-26-2003, 03:03 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
an unpaid prostitute.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I would rather say mistress. If she has a long relationship with that guy I would not consider her a prostitute.

upsidedown
05-26-2003, 06:29 AM
I wonder how PHEROMONES would work if this guy tried them around his wife! A novel idea I know coming on a pheromone forum! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If someone introduced him to pheromones, I wonder if they would help his wife\'s dormant passion?

CptKipling
05-26-2003, 07:50 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Here\'s the situation.

A married man in his early forties has a wife who he loves very much and a daughter who he loves very much, and all would seem to be happy in Paradise, except that said wife has no interest in sex. Wife was pregnant with twins, one was stillborn, the other died soon after birth; a couple of years later, after a difficult pregnancy, she had one child that lived. Her interest in sex since then has been nill and this doesn\'t bother her. Husband has tried to increase intimacy between them, even just taking a shower together, never mind anything more adventurous. Wife has immersed herself in role as \"mother\" and turns a deaf ear.

Husband finds a woman on the side who he sees discretely maybe once a month or so.

What is your opinion of this man?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

(excuse the fragmented format...)

Initially this seems like everyone is happy, everyone is getting what they want and no one gets hurt. Moral considerations complicate things, and stop us from thinking about this:

Why should the husband sacrifice his happiness?

But then conversely, why does he seek his happiness in someone else? Surely this breaks the promises of marriage more than her?

From an emotionally removed stand-point, perhaps he should leave her, his biological needs are not being met, so go somewhere else to satisfy them. But this is certainly morally wrong, the child should always be a consideration, and besides, there seems to be a lot of love between them.


This situation has no defining, the only way to define it would be to get the wife to seek help, but otherwise we can not define this man apart from to say he is putting his happiness before the marriage, but is that right/wrong...?

**DONOTDELETE**
05-26-2003, 07:54 AM
Proteus, the loss of the children happened 12 years ago. The couple has been to lots and lots of counseling.

The stereotypes that make things tidy are coming out ... The other woman is a whore. The guy .. if he MUST have sex? C\'mon now. People generally must have sex ... You assume the other woman wants to marry the guy (homewrecker!). What if she doesn\'t at all?

Enticing
05-26-2003, 08:00 AM
One of the most common stories in life, unfortunately. I\'m not saying it is right or wrong, but it is difficult. Apparently everyone is doing the best they can and doing what they can to get by, correct? The one I feel most compassion for, is the man\'s mistress. That is, if she is like most women, emotionally involved with the man, and what, she \'gets to\' have emotional, life altering sex with him once a month? Is that enough for either of them? What happens when she\'s ill, or he gets hurt, and the two of them cannot contact each other, comfort one another? It\'s a tough situation.

I guess what I am saying is, the guy is getting his sexual and emotional needs met, but what about the mistress? Maybe she has her sexual needs met, with that once a month meaningful sex, but who is meeting her emotional needs?

I also know a man whose wife\'s back was injured so badly in an accident that sex is super painful for her. They love each other tremendously, and touch and cuddle all the time. But in her darkest moments, she has said to him \"I wouldn\'t blame you if you had to go elsewhere in order to be satisfied.\" She just doesn\'t want to be aware of the details. Neither of them is happy with this situation, they both miss their former sex life terribly. All kinds of situations happen... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

proteus
05-26-2003, 08:25 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Proteus, the loss of the children happened 12 years ago. The couple has been to lots and lots of counseling.

The stereotypes that make things tidy are coming out ... The other woman is a whore. The guy .. if he MUST have sex? C\'mon now. People generally must have sex ... You assume the other woman wants to marry the guy (homewrecker!). What if she doesn\'t at all?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

FTR you asked for opinions and this is what you are getting (no offense meant /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) - there are so many variables that we don\'t know and could never know about this situation since we are not living it, but from the little we know each of us is giving what he/she thinks/feels. It does seem also that you\'ve already come to your own conclusions about this situation and perhaps seeking reinforcement of your views on this, but each of us bring our own biases and I just feel this guy could do things differently.

As for the lady he is involved with I don\'t consider her a whore or anything along those lines - relationships in whatever form they take are very often complicated with lots of grey areas. To me she is probably just seeking companionship and love herself, and sometimes we meet folks and things are not so simple and straightforward. I think ultimately though, if things are not brought out into the open, someone is going to get hurt - either the wife or his lady friend and of this I have no doubt.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-26-2003, 08:30 AM
I don\'t mean to be critical. I was just clarifying the circumstances. Yeah, of course I have opinions about the situation like everybody else! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lucky
05-26-2003, 08:24 PM
If the man loved his wife and child so much, he\'d be trying to fix things. He wants to love his family, but he doesn\'t -at least for now.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-26-2003, 08:33 PM
Of course. It\'s his fault. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MOBLEYC57
05-26-2003, 08:38 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If the man loved his wife and child so much, he\'d be trying to fix things. He wants to love his family, but he doesn\'t - at least for now.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

\"Se\" Cazzo! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Sei troppo brava Lucky! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Troppo brava! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Amore...una cosa piu forte della mondo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Mi Ami, Mi odi, Mi Ami, Mi odi, Mi Aaaaaaaaami! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Mi sento proprio come te. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Lucky
05-27-2003, 05:24 AM
Mobley,

I didn\'t hear a word you said!!! Gimme some English.

Lucky
05-27-2003, 05:37 AM
FTR,
I was not trying to assign blame or even assess the situation.

You asked, \"What is your opinion of this man?\"

I don\'t think he loves his family like he says he does. If nothing else, his investment in time with the other woman would prove his detachment. Sex is sex and he can get it anywhere. Sex with the same other woman repeatedly will demand some sort of a relationship, thus affecting his consignment to his family.

Do you disagree?

**DONOTDELETE**
05-27-2003, 05:45 AM
A couple hours once a month with another woman doesn\'t take any time worth mentioning away from his family.

I guess what I object to is the sort of facile nature of the answers. He should be trying to fix things. He tried to fix things. He went to counseling, they went to counseling, he\'s done everything a human being possibly can.

His choices are to live without sex or to get his sexual needs taken care of somewhere else.

Given that he\'s chosen the latter by default, it would seem to me better to have one partner than to have random encounters with strangers...

Lucky
05-27-2003, 05:53 AM
You know what I went through last winter, extreme desires with insufficient outlets. Had I chosen to have an affair, and I admit I was close...things would have been very cloudy for me. And, I don\'t know that I would have been able to see the tiny changes in my life that were making things better.

IMO, if he\'s been straight up with the wife, then she probably understands and would say go ahead.

monesrule
05-27-2003, 07:50 AM
maybe there is no right and wrong in the situation. i know i would live without sex to be faithful to my wife. anyway, he is still getting it a few times a year and there is masturbation. but if he can\'t help himself and he would choose leaving the family if he couldn\'t have a mistress, then what can you say?

someone wrote about the other women getting screwed over (no pun intended). anyone who gets in a relationship with a married man doesn\'t deserve anyhting. if she didn\'t know it orginally, and then finds out, the fact that she isn\'t disgusted by his actions and still has feelings for him gives me 0 sympathy for her. You want more than sex? Then go somewhere else or quit complaining.

belgareth
05-27-2003, 09:52 AM
Having been in a similar situation fairly recently, I have strong feelings about this.

The woman is being inconsiderate of her husband first. I wonder at their relationship and her motivations in the whole thing. The wife, in a sense is being unfaithful to her husband\'s needs. Isn\'t a marriage a series of comprimises? It sounds like it must be her way, period. Providing that there is no medical condition affecting her sex drive, they need to come to some comprimise that satisfies them both. SRH was right in suggesting counseling. It sounds like she is getting upset as a way of avoiding budging from her position.

Regardless of that, the husband has made certain commitments himself. His sex drive is not an excuse to break his word or lie to his wife. As the old saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right. If a comprimise cannot be worked out, if she will not openly accept him having a lover on the side and he feels his sex life has a higher priority, his final option is to end the relationship. No relationship should ever be based on dishonesty.

monesrule
05-27-2003, 10:07 AM
i think it says that they went through years of counseling to no avail. I wonder if sex is really owed in a marriage. Obviously it would be nice if she gave it up more, but what happened to her was heartbreaking and tramatic and that shouldn\'t be trivilized. i understand he doesn\'t want to break up the family, but does he truly love her if he can\'t take control of his sexual urges. masterbate. a ton of husbands who aren\'t getting any do it. Maybe he has an insanely hi libido though.

BassMan
05-27-2003, 10:13 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Here\'s the situation.

What is your opinion of this man?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Looks to me like this man has a lot of heartache.

He\'s longing for intimacy with his wife, whom he seems to still love. Whatever her reasons, she is denying him that intimacy in some real important ways.

The long-term deceit in his life can only increase the distance between them. That\'s gotta make it hurt even more.

Long-term sex is going to create a bond with his mistress. And the rules of the game (staying with his wife) don\'t allow him to surrender to that bond. He\'s got to keep the mistress at a distance.

All in all, I suspect this man has a real hurting heart.

Not to mention the others, but you asked about him...

tallmacky
05-27-2003, 12:39 PM
FTR are you involved with this man, from the way you are arguing it and putting up the argument it seems so. If I am wrong please let me know.

MOBLEYC57
05-27-2003, 01:55 PM
In 100 years...it all won\'t matter none. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Goddess
05-27-2003, 04:28 PM
My two cents worth...
1) I personally cannot understand a woman who doesn\'t like/want sex. It\'s on my mind all the time.

2) Secondly, they BOTH lost the babies, not just the wife. Seems to me she is using this as an excuse and she isn\'t the only one being hurt by it.

3) Third, if it were me, I would want to know. In fact, I told my guy that if he wants sex with another woman, I want him to do me the courtesy of telling me first. There is NOTHING I would hate more than finding out after the fact. This would really make me feel worthless and like he had no feelings for me.

4) My ex-husband would sometimes with-hold sex (for months) as punishment for one of any number of imagined crimes that I had done. I never cheated on him, much as I wanted to. And when we divorced I had a love/hate relationship with him. I no longer play games or allow anyone to play games with me. I suspect that this married man also has a love/hate relationship with his wife. Would this be my definition of true love? Nope, not anymore. If this is true, then this married man and his wife have an unhealthy love relationship. My ex and I also went to counseling. Doesn\'t mean we shoulda stayed together. Doesn\'t mean we were blissfully in love with each other.

So I can see both sides of the fence at the same time and commiserate with all - husband and wife and \"mistress\".

None of this answers your question...is he bad? Bad is in the eye of the beholder (to paraphrase) In my world I tend to live and let live, and don\'t much care what someone else thinks about me. Life\'s too short to live it someone else\'s way (spoken by someone who has come back from the brink of death - I too lost a baby and ended up close to death - was comatose and Drs. called all my family in to see me one last time. I didn\'t tell you all this for sympathy, just that wife isn\'t the only one bad sh*t happens to.)

Each person has to decide what they can and will/cannot and will not live with. It\'s not my place to judge anyone else. I can only judge MY actions.

Again...for what its worth.

Goddess

**DONOTDELETE**
05-27-2003, 07:29 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Here\'s the situation.

What is your opinion of this man?



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
Looks to me like this man has a lot of heartache.

He\'s longing for intimacy with his wife, whom he seems to still love. Whatever her reasons, she is denying him that intimacy in some real important ways.

The long-term deceit in his life can only increase the distance between them. That\'s gotta make it hurt even more.

Long-term sex is going to create a bond with his mistress. And the rules of the game (staying with his wife) don\'t allow him to surrender to that bond. He\'s got to keep the mistress at a distance.

All in all, I suspect this man has a real hurting heart.

Not to mention the others, but you asked about him...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Smooch, smooch, hug, Bassman. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
05-27-2003, 07:31 PM
Belgareth, what about the child?

Goddess -- my husband, too, and I never cheated either ... and I did leave ... but if I\'d had a daughter he adored who adored him, I don\'t think I would have left. And I probably would have cheated eventually.

About sex ... this couple married young and she had not had much experience. There is sex and there is sex. This woman verges on prudish. Not AT ALL in touch with her inner slut. She\'s completely identified with the Madonna side and there ain\'t no \"whore\" about it, if you know what I mean. So even if she had a little more drive, it would still be kind of tepid sex because her range is so limited. She is not interested in expanding her range.

seadove
05-27-2003, 08:59 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Goddess:Third, if it were me, I would want to know. In fact, I told my guy that if he wants sex with another woman, I want him to do me the courtesy of telling me first.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

This is unusual.From my experience women say that first and when the man comes out with \"ok, I\'d like to screw my blonde neighbour please\" she\'ll clobber him with an axe....on a bright and fruity sunday afternoon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
05-27-2003, 09:18 PM
And then clobber the neighbor, I think, is how it usually works ...

seadove
05-27-2003, 09:29 PM
Love is so painfull.

Always.

Whitehall
05-27-2003, 10:11 PM
There is a saying for women that applies here,

\"If you love your children, you\'ll love their father.\"

\"Love\" means many things. In a marriage, it also means satisfying him sexually so he won\'t search outside to fullfill his natural urges. It used to be called \"the wifely duty.\" Still makes sense to me.

Sorta works the other way too.

seadove
05-27-2003, 10:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Whitehall:Sorta works the other way too

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

B I N G O !!

belgareth
05-28-2003, 12:45 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Belgareth, what about the child?




<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Red,

I can\'t answer for the child in any realistic sense. Here are my concerns:
Should a child grow up in a home with that type of tension? If the husband gets no intimacy, there will be building resentment that the child will see. If the husband has a clandistine lover and gets caught, then what will the child see? What will her thoughts be about her father then? How much damage will be done to their relationship? IF the man has an open lover, what will the child learn about fidelity? What happens if/when the lover decides she wants more than a part time bed warmer?

IMHO an honest break and a respected father will teach the child more than living with the alternatives. Maybe they can manage it without a negative impact but I\'m sceptical. The child will get hurt anyway it goes. A quick clean break will probably cause her less pain and reduce damage to her in the long run.

IS he a bad guy? Don\'t know him and don\'t know her. The situation is far too complex to judge in black and white. Has each person done their best to avoid hurting others?

DrSmellThis
05-28-2003, 01:52 AM
Of course, one problem is that this vignette, or moral dilemma, is amputated from those people\'s inner and outer lives. This is problematic because we must make moral decisions based on our whole life stories, and those of significant others around us, in order to genuinely feel like we have done the right thing.

Another problem is that any invitation to judge the man ad hominem presupposes both: (1) that such judgement is useful; and also that (2) this man has no right to be free of our judgement. Who are we to judge him, in pursuit of some endorphin rush, or whatever? It is possible to make wise and prudent decisions, and to help others make them; without judging ourselves or anyone else.

I am happy to see some people emphasizing compassion for everyone involved. People all have a right to compassion, and yet such respect doesn\'t appear to be coming anytime soon on this planet.

The study of pheromones indicates that we are basically a bunch of monkeys pretending not to be. For now, we will keep throwing coconuts, and supposing that the sh*t we keep smearing on ourselves should be a matter of pride.

bivonic
05-28-2003, 01:58 AM
\"You\'ve lost that loving feeling...\"

I think this one is cut &amp; dry.

Does he love her?
Does she love him?
She has needs.
He has needs.
They need to communicate &amp; find out what is important in their relationship.
If he says \"sex\" (as trivial of a word that some may think has no meaning) is very important to him &amp; she cannot accept this AND is not willing to try the variety of drugs available that put her into the mood equal to his then I think she is not trying to make the relationship work. If it is not a physical thing but more of a mental block (due to some past experience) which I find hard to believe as how it was originally written: they still make love a few times a year - then my question is why *only* a few times a year?! Just to clarify, if it is a hormonal shift (read \"biological\" change) that is a result of childbirth, then let\'s try to get those hormones back up. I can understand how this could be a rare side effect of having children, but I know for a fact it hasn\'t happened to anyone in my family (my parents included &amp; that\'s after having 5 kids!!!).

If her level of intimacy cannot reach a level that her husband \"needs\" and is unwilling to try prescription drugs from a doctor, then I firmly believe they should separate / get a divorce. That is just my opinion, I would much rather value that then cheat on my wife. It makes little difference if children are involved, I would not love them any less.

I guess the last loophole I would need to cover is, what if she tries every drug in the world &amp; it has no effect on her, she still only gets the urge a few times a year? I may be stubborn in saying this, but they could seek counseling &amp; try that for a bit, but in my logical opinion it\'s a mental block that exists, counseling may be able to bring this to surface, but the big question is how much counseling does the couple endure? How much is too much or too long?

monesrule
05-28-2003, 12:59 PM
i think the heart of the issue is whether \"wife duty\" really exists. Just because you get married to someone, do you have to satisfy them sexually even if you object to it? To me it has that slight undertone of forced sex and you know what that is called. Does it say anything about sex in vows, or just love and commitment?

Now I know anyone can argue about how it is selfish of the woman to withhold sex, etc, but lets not judge that for a minute and accept that she doesn\'t want to do it. Is it breach of contract?

belgareth
05-28-2003, 01:21 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
i think the heart of the issue is whether \"wife duty\" really exists. Just because you get married to someone, do you have to satisfy them sexually even if you object to it? To me it has that slight undertone of forced sex and you know what that is called. Does it say anything about sex in vows, or just love and commitment?

Now I know anyone can argue about how it is selfish of the woman to withhold sex, etc, but lets not judge that for a minute and accept that she doesn\'t want to do it. Is it breach of contract?


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Breach of contract, I don\'t know, it depends on the implied contract as much as the written one. Irreconcileable diferences would be more appropriate, I think.

Is it an obligation? No, but compromise to a middle ground is each partner\'s obligation. Do you think a couple times a year is fair to both parties? Should either party get away with having it their own way exclusively?

bivonic
05-28-2003, 04:21 PM
I can understand how you think I was assigning blame. It was not my intention, irreconcilable differences is the best way to word it. It can work both ways, if the man was going down on her a ton while they were dating because he knew how much it turned her on &amp; then only did it on occassion after marriage &amp; this was something that she needed then she would have every right to get a divorce. I\'m not talking in the legal sense just the moral sense.

Whitehall
05-28-2003, 04:36 PM
For those of you willing to criticize the man, I can only say hold off until you\'ve walked a mile in that man\'s shoes.

You work hard to feed, clothe, and house a woman and then come home to a cold shoulder - for months on end - and THEN you can hand out advice.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-28-2003, 06:11 PM
Yeah, those shoes pinch, don\'t they? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Whitehall, what about this? He\'s not a \"Family Man\" because he\'s having sex outside his marriage.

What would you say to that?

belgareth
05-28-2003, 10:22 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
For those of you willing to criticize the man, I can only say hold off until you\'ve walked a mile in that man\'s shoes.

You work hard to feed, clothe, and house a woman and then come home to a cold shoulder - for months on end - and THEN you can hand out advice.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Having been there, it\'s about the most depressing thing I can think of. Bivonic does have a point though. We don\'t know the situation, what expectations were, etc. In my own narrow little world, I cannot see being dishonest with my partner, but that\'s just me.

biteme
05-29-2003, 02:09 AM
I havn\'t read the entire thread, but the original \"scenario\" reminds of a similar situation a female acquaintance of mine was in a few years ago.

She wanted sex and loved sex, but her (now) ex-husband didn\'t. They had sex maybe once every six months. As far as I know, he was not having an affair. She said it was like he was afraid of sex or something. His older sister was put into an institution when she was 17 or 18 years old by their parents. This was back in the early \'60s. She was sleeping around w/lots of guys (the whole free love thing). She spent a year in the institution and was literally brain washed. So, my female acquaintance thinks that her ex-husband learned early on that sex was bad or something. Her theory.

But I digress. SO, w/him not \"doing his job\", she went looking for sex elsewhere. She loved him and their kids. But she was a very sexual person and wanted sex.

She had an affair for six months before the ex-husband found out. Needless to say, it led to divorce.

I havn\'t spoken to her in a while, but last I heard, her current sex life is very good, and her ex-husband remains a lone wolf.

tallmacky
05-29-2003, 04:51 PM
Your partner that you marry, you share two bonds right sexual and mental. So if my wife stopped talking to me would I be allowed to seek out others to talk intimate with. Would that be cheating in some way? I am not saying I agree with what happen but I am just throwing in another question.

Then again if I sought out someone else to talk to, isn\'t there a strong possibility that the talks like most things in human relationships would grow closer, that we would end up having an affair out of pure will alone.

On the flip side, after sex again and again with his mistress wouldn\'t he begin to grow an attachment with her a bond? Would this leave the wife now ex-wife totally alone?

**DONOTDELETE**
05-29-2003, 06:21 PM
You can love more than one person at one time. There is no need to leave one to be with another. There\'s not even that desire. But there\'s not that necessity.

You don\'t have to marry everybody you love.

Some people don\'t even want to get married.

Whitehall
05-30-2003, 06:35 AM
Some of you question whether or not there is \"a wifely duty\" for a woman to provide sexual release for her husband.

I would submit that mothers who adopt this idea will tend to keep their husbands compared to those who do not acknowledge \"a wifely duty\" and have little libido. The children of women who follow the duty concept will prosper relative to those who don\'t - on a statistical basis.

In most cases women with low libido - sex drive - still respond and enjoy sex once it is initiated. Just because a sense of duty gets the ball rolling doesn\'t mean that sexual fulfilment for both partners can\'t happen.

Personally, I don\'t like to see broken homes and children in single parent homes - been there, done that from both sides. The children are the losers there.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-30-2003, 06:56 AM
I think the phrase \"wifely duty\" raises some hackles ... it\'s a marital obligation on the part of both partners to keep each other happy sexually. You\'d be surprised at how many men refuse their wives sex. It happens.

Lucky
05-30-2003, 07:01 AM
You know, I\'m beginning to think it\'s a power *thing*. Control freaks...what jerks.

Whitehall
05-30-2003, 07:22 AM
If the husband doesn\'t sexually satisfy his wife, she can always find a guy to impregnate her. That leaves the husband as the loser since he is still on the hook for supporting the other man\'s child barring discovery.

I think Lucky hit on a motivation for some women (one I know personally) - power.

In either case, the withholder of sex is a fool for not trying to satisfy their spouse.

belgareth
05-30-2003, 07:30 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If the husband doesn\'t sexually satisfy his wife, she can always find a guy to impregnate her. That leaves the husband as the loser since he is still on the hook for supporting the other man\'s child barring discovery.

I think Lucky hit on a motivation for some women (one I know personally) - power.

In either case, the withholder of sex is a fool for not trying to satisfy their spouse.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Whitehall,

For a change, we are on the same page on this one. Replacing wifely duty with FTR\'s terms, You are right on the money.

MOBLEYC57
05-30-2003, 07:44 AM
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You\'d be surprised at how many men refuse their wives sex. It happens.

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Can I get some phone numbers!!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
05-30-2003, 10:07 AM
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You know, I\'m beginning to think it\'s a power *thing*. Control freaks...what jerks.

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Oh, I was definitely being punished ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

tallmacky
05-30-2003, 10:40 AM
This thing is at 10 pages, that\'s long for just a question, I don\'t think I have to ask if you are involved with this guy as it seems obvious, if I am wrong shot me down.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-30-2003, 03:15 PM
1. None of your business.

2. It\'s irrelevant to the question.

Please don\'t ask me that again, Tallmacky.

DrSmellThis
05-31-2003, 10:47 PM
First, a little moral philosophy.

\"Duty\" doesn\'t morally compel us as some rule, that attaches from the outside. in a controlling, enslaving way. The monkey will rip that bell-hop suit right off, and the organ grinder will be grinding his organ solo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

It becomes a \"should\" for us as a general conclusion from mutual life stories. A pragmatic reason binds us. Otherwise no one could give a good reason why we should do \"our duty\".

So \"duty\" here might mean the following, in part:

Most all guys go into a relationship \"pumping\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif a lot of sexual energy into it. They are most often the \"sparkplugs\" . (Just biological tendency, not a rule). The woman has an opportunity to use that energy to cement and deepen the intimacy. If she wants the relationship to last, grow, and be happy, she shouldn\'t squander that opportunity. That would be self-defeating. Prudishness, to control things or whatever, wouldn\'t make sense, if that\'s her value.

So take an emotional risk, momma, and commit to some hot sexual intimacy! Keep that dipstick well-oiled, pump it full of premium before the tank gets half empty; and you\'ll be hummin\' for a very long time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Don\'t make a duty in your pants! (Insert your own \"cheezy\" puns here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

**DONOTDELETE**
06-01-2003, 06:47 AM
Capricorns and Myers-Briggs ISTJ\'s naturally think in terms of \"shoulds\" and \"duty,\" and that is often their prime consideration in decision making and their prime motivating factor. ... and thank god for people who think in terms of \"shoulds\" and \"duty.\" Sometimes it\'s necessary, even if harsh.

I think that men do not appreciate that going without any intimacy in the relationship, all the girl stuff, talking, holding hands, giving compliments, etc. - without that, to then want sex and wonder why the woman is not primed and ready ... it just doesn\'t work in most cases. We don\'t shift gears that fast, and everything is connected to everything else, whereas men compartmentalize.

I remember saying to a guy I was dating a couple of years back, \"You sure don\'t act like someone who wants a blow job ...\" half teasing - he was being jerk-ish - and he didn\'t understand what I meant. He didn\'t get that how he was acting on the date would determine what would happen afterward. \"I never connected the two\" is what he said.

I think that\'s true in a lot of cases. I\'m not male bashing, just speaking from my own experience, making an observation about the differences between the way males and females view things. The guy doesn\'t realize that because he\'s been busy and preoccupied, hasn\'t made an \"I love you\" phone call in forever, or really looked her in the eyes, or spoken to her about anything not business related (kid car pooling, what to pick up from the store, kind of thing), to then expect her to just be in the mood spontaneously when he feels like it for sex is highly unrealistic.

Of course, I know there are men who do all the things they think their women need to keep them feeling emotionally connected, and that doesn\'t work either.

Relationships are difficult at best.

Whitehall
06-02-2003, 07:28 AM
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Of course, I know there are men who do all the things they think their women need to keep them feeling emotionally connected, and that doesn\'t work either.

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I remember bringing home flowers for the misses one evening and being commanded rather curtly that \"Next time you bring home flowers, YOU put them in a vase.\"

Duty is that expectation that if I live my life to my expectations of what is fair and expected of me then other people will also do their duty. The intent is that there are social standards of behavior - some are negotiated but many are what Kant would call \"Moral Imperatives.\" These come from the heart and are universal.

**DONOTDELETE**
06-02-2003, 07:31 AM
Perhaps there are issues about housekeeping. Some men believe that because they work outside the home and the woman doesn\'t, they should be waited on hand and foot or should not have to pick up after themselves. Her remark just tells me she\'s angry way past the point that flowers would help.

We\'re talking about marital obligations, but ... when things have turned to cold war, and if it\'s just going through the motions ... it really doesn\'t even help much, I mean, would it? if she did it just to please you. I doubt you\'d get much out of it.