Why women in the workplace has helped destroy USA

[bivonic]

I caught this off my football message board, thought ppl here might find it interesting...

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Here\'s a few reasons why I think women in the workplace has helped to destroy our country...

Finances
The reason it\'s so hard to make it on your own is because of women in the workplace. Think about that very first onslaught of women coming into the workplace…the companies had to “make room” for them in their payrolls…but weren’t producing more goods…that’s dependant on supply/demand. So…in order to fit them into the workplace…some men were let go…laid off…not hired…and raises were not as prevalent. Then…women demanded equal pay…even more cuts were necessary. It used to be that a man could get a job and it would pay enough to take care of the bills…or close to it…now, it’s hard for even two people to make enough money to pay the bills. And because there are fewer jobs for the men…you end up with households not making enough to get by…

Nuturing
Women aren\'t at home fulltime anymore. Kids aren\'t getting the nuturing they need at the very early stages of development and we\'re ending up with desensitized kids who have very little regard for human life, much less common decency. The wife is now working fulltime while the children are spending most of their day at daycare/babysitting. The children aren’t learning and reinforcing the family values or morals that would normally happen because they spend so much time away from the family...in essence, our kids are being formed by daycare and schools...and I touch on schools later in this post.

Nutrition and Health
When the wife finally does come home...it\'s around the same time as the husband. Both are tired from a long day at work...and now have to share the duties around the house. There\'s no hot meal on the table when the husband gets home...so what ends up happening? Usually either parent throws together a quick meal that really doesn\'t cover the essential food groups needed for development. So...mornings...everyone is rushed to get going...no real breakfast is happening...lunch is served to the kids by daycare/babysitter (usually not all that healthy or balanced) and dinner is thrown together or worse yet...fast food. And do the parents have time or energy to go outside and be with the kids? What example is being set for the kids...you end up with lazy, lumps that stay indoors all day watching TV because their parents never seem motivated to take them outside anymore.

Gender Roles
Because both parents are working...both end up having to share the load of responsibilities at home. This actually helps continue this ridiculous cycle our nation is now in...the kids don\'t learn what their gender roles are anymore. We end up with boys acting like girls and girls acting like boys and a terrible mix inbetween.

Household Duties
Don\'t underestimate household duties. It takes work to keep a house going properly...once it\'s up and running...it\'s just maintenance and whatnot...but it\'s still work. Cooking alone can take up a good chunk of the day...add in laundry and cleaning...and your day is almost spent. Add in time spent with the kids...teaching, nurturing, etc...and that\'s a full time job. However, in today\'s society, both parents are trying to fit in the time to do the laundry and other duties when they get home after work...so...we end up with usually a half-azzed job. The floors aren\'t getting mopped, the holes aren\'t being patched and hems aren\'t getting sewn...regular dusting now occurs during spring cleaning only...dishes are piling up for days. Cleanliness is falling by the wayside...no wonder kids get the sniffles a lot nowadays.

Time and Energy
Both parents are tired from the workday and end up spending their time trying to \"catchup\" on all the chores and whatnot. So...they come home...and start working some more...then...hopefully find time for family meal...between chores and the meal...it\'s almost time for the kids to go to bed. The parents don\'t feel as motivated to help the children with their homework as is necessary and have truly not spent any quality time with each other as a family...it\'s just been all work. Weekends are spent catching up on whatever didn\'t get done during the week...usually entire days on the weekend is for laundry and folding. Forget ironing...does anyone know how to iron anymore? Add in any extra activities that the kids are involved in with school/sports and no ones had any time to take a breath.

Gender Roles - Part 2
So...because most things have to be accelerated or half-azzed in order to finish in any reasonable amount of time...the girls in the family never learn those wifely duties. The boys certainly aren\'t going to sit down to learn how to knit, sew, cook, shop, clean, etc...and who would teach them? The father has no clue really and the mother doesn\'t have time or didn\'t learn from her mother because she didn\'t have time to do it right either. So...it continues to cycle. Then...the girl grows up...gets married to a man who has no clue what he\'s in store for...a dirty house, no food and wrinkly clothes. He ends up taking on duties in order to get them done...figuring it out as he goes...the marriage is strained because both are always tired and there\'s no time to be romantic.

Divorce
Goes without saying...however, as I said before...since both partners are now working harder...it puts unnecessary strain on the relationship.

Work Production
I’ve found a great many women are wonderful workers. Give them tasks and they’ll perform…however, as soon as they move up in management…there becomes a problem. They now have to delegate, manage and work with other managers…what usually ends up happening is almost reminiscent of high school. A bunch of little clicks that don’t like each other and are pissed because someone didn’t say “HI” the right way. Grudges are held and secrets/rumors start to fly. Whereas, if a man has a problem…it’s usually expressed right then and there…a fellow co-worker pisses you off…you say, “Hey man…do that again and I’ll bust you in the lip” or whatever method it takes for you to express that you’ve been wronged…women on the other hand, hold it in…more like let it fester until some rivalry begin. What about pregnancy? Women get pregnant…you end up with months of slowed production and months of them being completely gone from the workplace. Can’t be good for production. What about men and women working together? Like it or not, but men are distracted by women. It’s not their fault…I’m just saying it’s a reality. You get a nice looking woman on your floor and men will become distracted…never mind the guys who end up falling for a woman in the workplace…he won’t be able to think straight no matter what happens.

Schooling
When women were only allowed something like three jobs…one being schoolteacher…it afforded our children the ability to be taught by the best teachers. However, you open up the job market to women and who wants to be teachers? They become anything but teachers, in fact. It used to be that in order to be a teacher, you had to be one of the best at it…because there was such a wealth of teachers to choose from…but now, the teaching profession has almost turned into a safety net. Meaning…if I can’t make it as a computer technician, lawyer, etc…I can always become a teacher. So…our kids end up being taught by whomever the schools can coax into halls.

So…in the end…what do we end up with? Kids who know learn very little, are not nurtured enough, have very little family values, which don’t eat well being taught by people who should be janitors…who grow up and marry someone just as dysfunctional and ill-equipped as they are…and endless cycle.

Now…before anyone and everyone gets all upset with me…I’m talking in grand generalizations here. If you’re a teacher…I’m not saying you’re an awful teacher…you might be one of the few that is great at his/her job…I’m just saying on the whole…the product has gone downhill. And women…before you get mad…think about it…especially if you’ve got kids…how many times have you wished you didn’t have to work…so you could stay home with the kids. Bet you wished your grandmothers didn’t burn their bras and march so vehemently for jobs. For those few women who are finding a way to make it all work…bravo! More power to you…this is not a post about you…it’s again, about our nation on a whole. Don’t quickly label me a sexist pig and dismiss what I’m saying…take a moment and see how women in the workplace has, in fact, affected our country negatively. Sure, there are wonderful positives…women can now become anything they want to be…individually…however, on the whole…the American household is falling apart because of it.

Now…go ahead and blast away…debate at will…

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I\'ll post an interesting reply in a moment...

[bivonic]

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I didn\'t look at any non-economic posts in the thread, but here\'s my economic theory of women in the workplace:

Whether you are a Capitalist or a Marxist you will agree that the capitalist will pay labor exactly the amount it takes to get labor to show up and do the job. This labor cost will be effected by supply and demand principles, as well as by the minimum wage requirements, ie, what needs must be paid for to make it worth a worker\'s while (housing, food, clothing, health).

The employer will pay the rate that the minimum requirements and labor market dictate. The employer will pay no more than these things dictate. Instead, the employer will pocket any extra money as profit.

As individual worker productivity rises (due to better training, division of labor, machines, computers) the employer still pays that minimum rate for labor, and thereby is increasing his profit - The added value the laborer adds to the product does not go to the laborer, but instead trickles up to the employer. As time goes on and technology develops, more and more added value trickles up to the employer.

Through the 1960s it was the social norm for only the man to work. For that reason, the employer, in order to get the male worker to continue showing up, the employer had to pay enough for the worker to be able to afford all the things that were the social norm. Thus, a single worker was paid enough afford a wife and 2-3 kids, a family car, a house in the suburbs, etc.

Once the women\'s lib movement started and consequent flood of women into the workplace had two very bad consequences for labor. First (for the Capitalists), the supply of labor shot up, with no increase in demand, leading to lower relative prices. Second (for the Marxists), the minimum payment for workers was cut in half, because rather than having to support an entire family in one worker\'s wages, the employers now only had to support 1/2 of the family\'s costs for each laborer (because both the mother and the father were working).

Once it was firmly established that women were in the workplace, it became very difficult if not impossible for a single middle class person to support an entire family on his salary, because the market calls for that salary to support only 1/2 of a family.

So I think that for the laboring class as a whole it was a terrible mistake for women to enter the workplace. Now that it\'s happened, the only solution is a worker\'s revolt. It need not be violent, but it does need to be unified, with worker\'s universally only sending one adult per family to the workplace, or each adult in a couple only working half time. That\'s the only way to take back some of that excess value from the employers.

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[tallmacky]

That\'s a good post bivonic, most people have a hard time understanding things a bit, evolution has evolved the man to be the one who goes out and seeks works and earns what he needs to feed and protect his family, thus men have evolved phsyical traits along with mental traits that already give them an edge on actual \"work aka job\". This is no b/s hatred or hype just the facts. Women were crafted to be more domestic, take more wanting in raising children, maintaining the order of the \"house\" making sure everything is ok, being vigiliant and the backbone and mainlink of a family.

This is how we were developed, of course we are not and should not be tithered and categorized as only being able to do this and that, in this day of age how we are living a women can handle mental based job as a lawyer very well, I am not sure how they rank with men but it seems to be irrelevent, women are not disabled from doing things outside their \"realm\" at all instead it may just feel a bit unnatural or be a bit tuffer. Men imagine going shopping every day and loving to be around kids, or perhapes a man who wants to be a figure skater, and most men who enter life style or jobs which are considered for women happen to usually be guess what gay? Nothing wrong with that the point is in theory their brains are hardwired like a womens would be, maybe a women in a mans body to a certain extent.

So we are designed for these roles whether we like it or not too bad I guess right? Now can a women compete men within a sport like basketball, soccer and so on? Hell no sorry bit its quite simply not even likely, its actually far from impossible and then they wonder why no one wants to watch the WNBA hahah. No one cares even women don\'t really care. In another job field besides atheletics, firefighting and so on I think women can do fine and bring new ways of thinking and ideas to the table, as good as men? I don\'t know maybe I doubt it sometimes or not at others.

I believe it is a certain type of women who wants to be a very hard worker such as a high paying corporate exec. and so on. Some say that homosexuality among women in these type of once thought of \"man\" jobs has risen I say its just more of a homosexual female\'s type of behavior to want to \"hunt\" after a job like this. Some women these days want to try to have it all and its complete bullsh$t. I have heard of some women in a rush who go to sperm banks to have children and treat them as accessories.

In my opinion we are all in essence without society fully evil. Children when they are born and are young are very evil, greed, inflicting pain on others, intolerance, name calling, they act very badly if not disciplined if a kid comes home ever day to \"fun world\" with no parents or anything they are then expected to raise themselves, and how do you think they will do on that? Unlike racism, religiousism (does that exist) or other prejudices, your sex actually has meanings and reasons behind it. I think the mold needs to be broken, if I was a women and wanted to work I certainly wouldn\'t want to deal with crap, and would expect to be allowed to be a lawyer and so on.

We cannot say we aren\'t equal or are but we are different

Now that\'s my 2 pesos and thanks, Bivonic got me thinking.

[druid]

this is very odd because earlier today I read an article in newsweek that had me pissed off like crazy and it realtes with this post very well.

the article was about the upsurge in \"stay-at-home-dads\" (or as I call them extreme beta males) and once I tell you some of the stuff in the article you will agree with me. Some guys were forced into because our country (the \"good-ole\" USA) is being downsized, outsorcedm and sold to the lowest bidders, and these guys don\'t like it. I mean these guys were kinda forced into this postion because they were laid off and haven\'t been able to find work. I feel for them and hope they can very soon resume their roles as provideres. Then there are the guys who voluntarily stay home and wash the dishes, cook the meals, vacuum, etc. I mean these guys basically traded in their balls and di-k for a frakin apron. AND THE WIVES WORK FULL TIME AND BRING HOME THE PAYCHECK. I mean how beta can you get. I won\'t even call that beta I will call it what it is : voluntary sissy-ification. I mean one guy from the article is the leader of a fu-king browie group for god sakes. One woman hopes her husband never returns to work.

Think this doesn\'t affect men? throughtout history we were the beard winners, now we are forced to bake it. switch up gender roles that took god knows how long to form and look what happens. the world is a fcked up place, and the US is no exception.

I have heard serveral theories for this. Personally I think it is femisism, which is why I can\'t stand it. Never in all of histroy until now (the last 40 years or so) have women tried to control men (and make so much progress). One of my favorite people from online (gunwitch -- from ASF an extremely hardcore person) explained it so succiently. He thinks that in the 60\'s during the vietnam war, all the aggresive males went to fight while all the betas stayed here and let the sh-t storm brew. i think he was right.

Now flame me, call me an arsehole, an ape, a chavuanist (sp?), whatever. say I will never get married (and have it last) and if trading in my balls for an apron is what it takes to make a marriage work then I won\'t be able to make a marrige work.

[tallmacky]

nice druid you are acting like a tallmacky hahah.

I agree these guys are very very very beta, they have very light voices and remind me very much of a guy who is very close to being gay(not saying there is something wrong with that). I think women naturally may enjoy power(for other reasons) more then men. Women love it during the attraction game and must really love it in the real world. I think it has also to do with the unfair way women are treated in our society as well. I think women are treated on day to day basis far better then men its pretty sick. I remember one of my teachers yelling at an unrully little bitch in class and the next day he bought her a cupcake and said he was sorry, must girls get away with doing and saying almost anything that they want, this along with the allowing for women to have power is another main cause in my opinion. Women have climbed this latter so fast that I never ever hear anyone mention during a job interview or anything that hey thats a women at all but all you have to do is put racims or religiousism in the mix and that is still a issue (though smaller). Women may have been limited with getting a job etc.. but they always got the royal treatment, especially the hot ones heheh. Guys who are the betas and raise the kids I am sure the women have no sexual attraction to at all! I bet they are at work screwing some hot guy or a girl(I could be off on that)? Then again men are said to have done this (I wouldn\'t) but men must have always been sexually attracted to their wife. At this point we are wired in our roles as man and woman I think alot of the taboos and of the traditions (middle-eastern not showing female face) are just fuc#ing stupid. I am a thinking liberal, that means I don\'t just shout out things cause I want to look righteous at all. I don\'t believe in old tradition, I mean I can understand the hating of someone else based on minor differences, but male and female roles are not minor differences.

[seadove]

Bivonic,

Prepare your a$$ for a thorough flogging from our female comrades. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

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Re: Why women in the workplace has helped destroy USA

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However, inspite of the fact that I don\'t agree with these thesises, why does the title refer to women of USA alone?Are you insinuating that to other countries they do no harm?

[franki]

Personally I like women in the workplace. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I think it is nice to have a mix of women and men.

I grew up with an at-home dad and a working mom. It worked out fine, although it is not ideal.

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[seadove]

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Personally I like women in the workplace. I think it is nice to have a mix of women and men.


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Bivonic\'s essay does not have a personal preferance of likes and dislikes.I\'m pretty sure that Bivonic also prefers mixes of men and women as co-workers, further than the fact that he prefers women in his office, sort of a hunting ground for him. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

His argument, as an issue, was if working women were good for the USA or bad.

[franki]

Well, that why I wrote the second paragraph of my post. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[franki]

All i want to say on this is that I think there should be a parent (or grandparents or someone else) who spends enough time with children. And I don\'t mean a Kindergarten etc. but a person that is REALLY there for them.

Whether that is a man or a woman is relatively unimportant. Allthough like in my situation it is said that it is bad when there isn\'t a man working, because there is not a good role-model for the male child ....

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[franki]

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Personally I like women in the workplace. I think it is nice to have a mix of women and men.


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Bivonic\'s essay does not have a personal preferance of likes and dislikes.I\'m pretty sure that Bivonic also prefers mixes of men and women as co-workers, further than the fact that he prefers women in his office, sort of a hunting ground for him. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

His argument, as an issue, was if working women were good for the USA or bad.

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To be honest, I find this discussion rather boring, I would rather talk about the Middle-East. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif j/k

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[seadove]

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Franki:To be honest, I find this discussion rather boring, I would rather talk about the Middle-East. j/k


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In Israel, my friend, the women are the ones who have the real balls, if you know what I mean. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Israel is the only country in the Mid East who corporates women workers regardless of the type of work.Just the other day I had a puncture in the right rear tyre of my car, and who do you think fixed it?

That\'s right, a man /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Got you , didn\'t I?

Seriously speaking, women workers are just as capable as men, and maybe sometimes even more than men, to do an honest job.

Are you bored? Then why are you yawning?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[franki]

\"In Israel, my friend, the women are the ones who have the real balls, if you know what I mean. \"

Didn\'t know there were that many trannies in Israel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif j/k

Now that I think of it, wasn\'t the winner of the Eurovision Songfestival/contest a few years ago an israelian woman who had been a man before ?

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[seadove]

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Now that I think of it, wasn\'t the winner of the Eurovision Songfestival/contest a few years ago an israelian woman who had been a man before ?


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Sssssssh, not so loud! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Every country has it\'s own handycap. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

BTW, he, she or it, is otherwise known as Dana International. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[franki]

Hey Seadove, we both deserve this week\'s Bin Laden trophy for hijacking a thread. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Now Elana has to tell her story about the IDF and men and women showering together ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[seadove]

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Now Elana has to tell her story about the IDF and men and women showering together ...


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This item has been brought up in the forum more than once.

I can assure you, guaranteed and endorsed, and also from first hand knowledge since I have family of both sexes serving in the army,that such an incident DOES NOT HAPPEN in the Israeli army, and if it does it is considered as a fellany resulting to imprisonment for both the sexes.

So whoever posted that fact, IMHO, posted it out of horniness and wishful thinking.

I\'m sure that Elana knows all these facts too.

[Elana]

Bivonic and Tallmacky

http://www.jimcarreyonline.com/pics/dumb/pics/dumb05.jpg (\"http://www.jimcarreyonline.com/pics/dumb/pics/dumb05.jpg\")

[bivonic]

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Bivonic,

Prepare your a$$ for a thorough flogging from our female comrades. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

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Re: Why women in the workplace has helped destroy USA

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

However, inspite of the fact that I don\'t agree with these thesises, why does the title refer to women of USA alone?Are you insinuating that to other countries they do no harm?



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People can make all of the generalizations or jump to any conclusions that they would like, but I find it pretty hard to refute these statements:

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Through the 1960s it was the social norm for only the man to work. For that reason, the employer, in order to get the male worker to continue showing up, the employer had to pay enough for the worker to be able to afford all the things that were the social norm. Thus, a single worker was paid enough afford a wife and 2-3 kids, a family car, a house in the suburbs, etc.

Once the women\'s lib movement started and consequent flood of women into the workplace had two very bad consequences for labor. First (for the Capitalists), the supply of labor shot up, with no increase in demand, leading to lower relative prices. Second (for the Marxists), the minimum payment for workers was cut in half, because rather than having to support an entire family in one worker\'s wages, the employers now only had to support 1/2 of the family\'s costs for each laborer (because both the mother and the father were working).

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Think of this more of a history lesson then a \"bivonic thinks women shouldn\'t/can\'t work in the office place alongside men\" I know women are absultely capable of performing at high levels. Although I will say there are a few things that are going against them. When women reach a high level (management / executive) their social behaviors are different then men (generally speaking) and when someone does something that a woman might take offense to (professionally) she is more likely to hold a grudge, let it build up inside &amp; to deal with this person indirectly. Conversely if you put a man into the same position he is more likely to be direct &amp; make sure the person at fault is well aware that he/she was in the wrong &amp; the matter can be addressed, forgotten &amp; everyone can move on with being productive. Lastly not to sound sexist but maternity leave cannot be that productive in an organization, especially small businesses I don\'t know how they cope. I used to own my own consulting company &amp; I can say from experience if I had someone take 3-4 months leave for child bearing it would put a serious drain on my company\'s cashflow.

I think the point the original author of this thread was trying to make is not that women do not deserve to work alongside men at certain levels nor that women are not capable enough. I think the point he was trying to make is how the influx of women into the workplace greatly diminished the demand of labor &amp; consequently shifted the economics thus requiring dual income families since a single middle income husband would find it very difficult to raise a family.

I\'d also like to add that the introduction of cheap foreign labor (H1 &amp; H1B visas) into our country performing technical professions at costs much less then what skilled labor in America was getting paid (they are happy making $10-15 an hour compared to the $40-55 an hour the same position previously paid) seriously hampered our technical professionals earning ability.

[seadove]

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If you are walking on thin ice, you might as well dance\"

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You are walking on this ice, bivonic, so start dancing.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bivonic]

I\'m not blaming our current economy on the foreign labor market but I saw first hand how my consulting company of 8-10 workers on a project were replaced by a workforce of 25-30 indians that our client literally imported, got H1 visas for, found &amp; paid for housing in Westchester, paid them a ridiculously low salary &amp; worked them like they operated a sweatshop. Not to mention they outsourced the QA of the project to other indians overseas at similar salaries if not lower salaries (to entice them to come to America). Then they had the audacity to ask our help in managing their teams of programmers, which we reluctantly did, only to be confronted with the way they do things in India in an arrogant tone &amp; a bunch of conversation amongst themselves in a language I did not understand while we are trying to troubleshoot problems they introduced in the software my company originally wrote. They were impossible to manage, when we had to ask the client to intervene it did no good - they wouldn\'t listen. We had to abandon the project since the client could not see the value we added or at least was able to justify our rates to have a smooth running operation (with open communication lines).

[belgareth]

Bivonic:

Read your history, women have been a large factor in the workplace since world war I &amp; II. They were part of the workforce during some of the greatest economic booms and downturns.

[Whitehall]

Feminism started out as some French Communist (Simeone Bevoire?) fantasy but caught on with a few US writers in the early 60\'s. It got some support from the doped-up, \"Radical Chic\" generation during the 60\'s when women found a form of violent protest they could call their own.

It stalled there until a few of the radical women grew up a bit and realized that they had something to sell to the power structure. Gloria Steinem and crew started making the rounds at the Ford Foundation and their irk who realized the economic benefits to Corporate America that a flood of female job aspirants would mean. Soon (early 70\'s) the Eastern Liberal Power Structure was pushing feminism big-time. They almost got the Equal Rights Amendment passed but cooler heads prevailed.

The economic theory presented in the top post is attributed to Karl Marx and is called the excess value theory of labor. I\'m a through believer in capitalism but realize that Marx was oftimes extremely insightful in his critique of capitalism although his prescriptions were idiotic.

Now too many women of my generation have this meme planted in their heads that caring for their children, their home, and their husband is demeaning and a wasted life. I know, I made the mistake of marrying a couple. Now, I\'m hostage to the current one\'s treatment of my children.

The big losers have been the children. In a normal family, one mother (and maybe additional grandmothers and aunts) take care of a single brood. Once you put the mom into the workforce, the kids go into daycare. Where before it might have been one adult to two small children, in the concentration camps (sorry - day care center!) it can be one minimum wage adult caring for 10 or more kids who aren\'t hers. No way the quality of rearing improves in such a situation unless the mom is loony.

I\'ve also been a single father. I know from personal experience that mothers are wired to be mothers and a male can\'t really replace that. Corporations and leftist intellectuals just say that\'s not their problem.

The real issue is that the elites in America over the last 30 years have failed the American people in so many ways. They\'ve tried to destroy our sense of cultural bonding by pushing \"multiculturalism\", they busted up our family life through feminism, and diluted the economic value of our labor. People are finally realizing this and hence the turn toward neo-conservatism.

[Whitehall]

BTW, thanks for finding and posting this!

[Lucky]

Bivonic,
I agree with your post to a degree.

It\'s not pc to think like this and I know I am old fashioned, but I\'ve been there and done that - so, I\'ve experienced what I\'m talking about.

Here\'s where you\'re right:
-the kids
-the lowering of salaries
-the stress
-the beta male being a turn off

Here\'s the misconception:
-men can do a better job

Women can and do work circles around men (remember that I\'m not a gender freak). You want something done correctly, promptly, and efficiently? Get a woman. I don\'t know about women vs men in abstract processes or physical labor. Men might rule there.

Also, I don\'t think this is exclusive to the USA.

My opinion only.

[druid]

biovionic is 100% percent right about what is going on in tech. h1-b visas are ruining our tech sector. With the next several years pakistan and india (most likely china will have a piece too) will be the new silicon valley. And guess what else-- all the stuff stored in large DB\'s (your online purchases, driving records, student records, bank records, and things of that sort) are gonna be in the heartland of jihad. And the american tech worker will be holding a sign \"Will debug for food\". Because lemme tell I have programmed with some pakistanis and indiains and bivoic is right -- they won\'t admit to not beaing able to do something. Your divding up the project and say \"can you make a script to do this?\" and they say yeah, then egg you on when you need the script then at the last minute you find out they ain\'t done sh-t and well you stay up all night....

I have a degree in computer science. I KNOW unix, java, c/c++ and a few scripting lanuages and I can\'t even get a fu-king interview.

---

I agree with lucky I think women are just as capable as men (i wouldn\'t say they are more capable -- I have know too many women to say that) except maybe physical labor like digging ditches, but the argument is that the working woman have ruined our family structure and therefore our country (or more generally western civilation). I men women can work OR women can nuture children/home but not do both. This have it all mentality is complete BS. Men can\'t nuture, so if men AND women are working who is doin the nuturing? Answer: No one. Look at the news and see what happens as a result. Kids killing kids. Kids having kids. Kids doing drugs. The list goes on and on......

[tallmacky]

There are tolls that have to be taken, women should be allowed to work, at first stuff will just be out of order and not what is considered \"desirable\" but we are all working and living here for ourselves but also for the greater good of the world, discrimination goes back a long way and the steps those in the past took have eased and helped life today much more.

I never thought a women could not do a job as good or better then a man when it comes to mental related, when it comes to phsysical like Firefighting of course I question that.

[belgareth]

Everybody has their skills and strengths. Women are better at some things than men and the reverse is true as well.

Men can nurter and a good father does. Why do you think you have daddy\'s girls and mommy\'s boys. They need that love and acceptance from the opposite sex, it\'s part of what helps them develop into a whole person.

During the earliest years, a child needs a lot of attention but by time they are three or four, they need to start being socialized by being around their peers. That\'s how they learn to get along with each other. Generally a child who has been in daycare does far better in school, both socially and acedemically than one who has not. But once they are home, all children need the influence of both parents.

IMO there are a lot of mistakes made in child rearing. The biggest being the lack of consequenses. Ever see a parent that simply yells and never punishes? How does the child behave? How about the parent that tries to reason with a two year old? Have you ever noticed how often the children seem to be in charge of the household? The reality is that when these little kids grow up and get out into the real world, they have no clue that they can and will be punished for their actions.

[Watcher]

Only thing with women in the workplace, its easier to find a storeroom and if you are horny, find a horny woman, pull her into the quitespace, pump her full get youre rocks off and the hassle of seduction is gone. Easier for men all round i say.

[Gerund]

Sounds vaguely like changing the oil in your outfit. But without the passion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[EXIT63]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The real issue is that the elites in America over the last 30 years have failed the American people in so many ways. They\'ve tried to destroy our sense of cultural bonding by pushing \"multiculturalism\", they busted up our family life through feminism, and diluted the economic value of our labor. People are finally realizing this and hence the turn toward neo-conservatism.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Absolutely right!!!...By the way, neo-conservative is an elitist term. Fashioned to remind people of neo-nazis.
So drop the neo!

[EXIT63]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I have a degree in computer science. I KNOW unix, java, c/c++ and a few scripting lanuages and I can\'t even get a fu-king interview.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Hey Druid, here\'s your government at work:

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
The H-1B is a temporary visa category for nonimmigrant workers that includes specialty occupations which require a bachelor’s degree or higher and fashion models of distinguished merit and ability Typical H-1B occupations include architects, engineers, computer programmers, accountants, doctors and college professors. Initially, the maximum period of admission is three years, which may be extended for an additional three years.

The H-1B visa category was established by the Immigration Act of 1990. The American Competitiveness and Workforce Improvement Act of 1998 temporarily raised the number of H-1B visas available annually from 65,000 to 115,000 for fiscal years 1999 and 2000, and from 65,000 to 107,500 for FY 2001, while requiring a new H-1B worker fee of $500 paid by employers. The $500 fee funds training and educational programs for U.S. workers.

[nonscents]

It\'s no coincidence that this post is dominated by those from the U.S. Let\'s look at other so-called \"developed\" nations. Canada, Western Europe, Australia: they all have a workers\' movement that is much more coherent than what is in the U.S.

There is no \"good\" or \"bad\" for \"the economy.\" The reality is that there are class interests in play. What is good for one class may often be contrary to the interests of another class. (Whitehall, you\'ve conflated the labor theory of value and the theory of surplus value, but I always enjoy reading your perspective.)

Let\'s looking at the class of people in families whose members must work for an outside employer to survive. This is not everyone. But it\'s the vast majority.

The workforce can always be divided into categories. There are Hutus and Tutsis (spelling?). There are short and tall. There are Dominicans and Peruvians. There are Spanish-speaking and Polish-speaking. There are black and white. And, oh yeah, there are men and women.

Employers do what they can to drive wages down. Workers do what they can to increase wages. In most developed countries, the workers were effective in acting on the fact that their best strategy is to organize themselves along class lines to increase their bargaining power with the employers.

In the U.S., the employers have generally been much more effective in convincing workers to view themselves as individuals, whose most effective strategy for self-advancement is to stand out as a more productive worker than their coworkers. Workers in the U.S. tend to look at their coworkers as competitors. Workers in other developed countries (I would call them more highly developed, but that is another argument) look to their coworkers as allies in the struggle to win better working conditions from their employers.

U.S. employers like to see the discontent of their employees directed at other employees, rather than at the employers. So whites will complain that the blacks who are hired aren\'t as productive, that the whites have to work harder for the same pay, etc.

Among the lower-paid strata, employers like it if some of the employees speak Spanish and others speak Chinese. There is bound to be some friction, but that is good from the employer\'s perspective.

Obviously, I am just scratching the surface of this book-length topic. But does anyone on this forum wish to live in a society where some people at birth are restricted from entering certain professions? India has a caste system which does something like this. You don\'t have to be a Marxist to oppose it. Leftists and rightists see the advantage to organizing a society where, as the saying goes, \"careers are open to talent.\" I want the person who is performing my plastic surgery ( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) to have gotten the job because they are the best qualified. I don\'t want talented Nepalese, or blacks, or women excluded on any basis other than their ability to perform the job.

I am not going to go into a detailed discussion of the problems of child-rearing. All I will say is that modern society exhibits for all the exteme interrelatedness and interconnectedness of people. Contemporary society is one where none of us could survive without a vast, complex network of individuals embedded in social relations of mutual dependence. We produce for people all over the world and we consume things made by people all over the world. To keep this system afloat we agree on certain standards. We have conventions about communication: there are rules for language and meaning. We have conventions about commerce: there are rules for contracts and obligations. We have conventions for money: all of us understand the significance of those printed sheets of paper and those numbers in our bank accounts.

The nuclear family is not natural. It is a response to certain social conditions. There are countless historical examples in which child-rearing is a community responsibility. I am not talking about Plato\'s Republic where children are taken from their parents at infancy and raised communally. But I am talking about forms of social organization where the burden of child-rearing does not fall completely and solely on the shoulders of the biological mother. People organize themselves into groups so that the burdens of child-rearing are shared.

Having women doing work outside of child-rearing is not contrary to nature. Human history is replete with instances of many societies where women were productive contributors to the economy outside of the child-rearing. But the society which reaps the benefits of women\'s contribution must, in return, take on its own shoulders some of the responsibility for child-rearing. We rely on the state to organize the defense our borders and to maintain the money supply. It must provide high-quality childcare.

[franki]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


Having women doing work outside of child-rearing is not contrary to nature. Human history is replete with instances of many societies where women were productive contributors to the economy outside of the child-rearing. But the society which reaps the benefits of women\'s contribution must, in return, take on its own shoulders some of the responsibility for child-rearing. We rely on the state to organize the defense our borders and to maintain the money supply. It must provide high-quality childcare.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

There have been a lot of studies about daycare and it seems it is a lot better for most children to not be one of many children in a Kindergarten. A lot of children don\'t get the attention they need and deserve.

IMO it is important to have a mother (or another qualified person) around to care for children.

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[nonscents]

Franki,

I agree entirely with you. That\'s why I emphasize that high-quality daycare should be treated as a right. The studies that I have seen have showed that children in high-quality daycares have excellent outcomes. The problem is that many daycare facilities are little more than warehouses.

I was quite fortunate that my son attended a wonderful daycare. He loved the place, made great great friends, and was encouraged by the highly-trained staff to expolore his own interests in a protected and nurturing environment.

The reality is, however, that very few New York City residents could afford the tuition at that daycare.

Not too long ago there was a rather big financial scandal (again) here in the US. Some corporate bigshot was on the board of a prestigious eastside preschool. Some bigtime stock analyst got his kid into the preschool by promising the corporate bigshot to strongly recommend the stock.

Again, quality preschool is a right. It should not be the prerogative of the mighty and powerful.

[Whitehall]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
quality preschool is a right.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

And who exactly is to pay for quality pre-school that very few can afford now? Obviously, you want ME to pay through taxes.

Sorry, I\'d rather not. I\'d much prefer stay-at-home moms take care of their own and the government NOT get anymore involved in child care and education than they are now. At least in California, the schools suck at their basic job of education and have become captive to all sorts of political interest groups pushing their agenda onto my kids.

I think we need to fix the government schools before we add day care to the problem list.

[Sexyredhead]

I don\'t go for govt. daycare. I went to church preschool, which charged very little and I was well taken care of. In elementary school, I went to an after-school program at a local college which was staffed by teaching and psychology students. It was great too. There were two of us being raised by a single mom, and she was able to afford it, even though we had very little money.

[tallmacky]

Gotta always give it up to supermoms! SRH

[Whitehall]

My three sons were in day care, especially after the divorce. The best was \"Baby Gator\" nursery at U. of Florida. Again, cheap and staffed with student interns. As a single father, they were a god-send.

I can\'t say no day care, just don\'t offer too many mothers the temptation to dump their offspring there. That temptation increases when the government is picking up the tab.

Some day care is positive - the kids do get to mingle and socialize but aren\'t playgroups better for that?

[Lucky]

Whitehall is on.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Bullshit. Nonscents is on.

There is nothing wrong with feminist theory. The problem is that that is not what we ended up with. We did not end up with choices. We ended up being forced by the economy to work. I have good skills at a shitty paying job so I don\'t make a whole lot but I can always find work. I supported my husband through a nearly five year period of off again on again unemployment. I did not get to have children because during the years that I was fertile, I did not have enough financial support to make pregnancy a wise decision. I give myself credit that I was not so deluded as to think that I had a right to the happiness of motherhood and ADC or welfare or whatever could just pay me ... but this was not a choice. There\'s no choice anymore for most of us, Lucky\'s opinion notwithstanding on the subject - it\'s nice that she has a husband who could support her if she chose not to work. I never did and I know lots of women who don\'t.

It\'s bullshit to say that women are ruining everything by working. You sound to me like the KKK. Goddamn black people taking all the jobs ... and the damn uppity women just making it worse, won\'t stay home in the kitchen where they belong ... come on.

Good daycare is fundamental to women\'s fully participating in daily life, including having jobs, and that part of the equation never worked out somehow. Government doesn\'t have to pay for it. Your employer can pay for it, like health insurance, with employee contributions. It can be somewhat government subsidized. Or it can be church supported and paid for by tithes. There are lots of ways to make daycare work - but none of them happened.

Now we have a situation where both people have to work hard to keep themselves alive and if they have children ... they do the best they can, and mostly it\'s not enough.

But you can\'t put the toothpaste back in the tube.

And no one here is old enough to remember what it was like when women were treated like second class citizens and treated like infants because they were completely dependent on men. MANY men abused that situation. It would be hard not to. The imbalance of power is too tempting. It ends up the domineering patriarch who holds the purse strings and decides what the wife may and may not do. F*CK THAT. Which is why the feminist fury in the first place. There were not even laws on the books protecting women from spousal abuse or spousal rape. We had NOTHING. Men could treat us any way they felt like.

You want to go back to that?

That ain\'t happening.

P.S. What was written in the article Bivonic posted about teachers is a complete misunderstanding of the situation. Teaching does not pay sh!t and it\'s very hard work. Private schools pay LESS than public schools, and public schools pay very little. The reason unqualified people are teaching is because the wages are so low. When I graduated college with a degree in education, I had to pass the National Teacher\'s Exam and be observed teaching in order to be certified to teach, and the first couple of years certificates were provisionary. Now anybody who is willing can step into the school system and teach. Two temp legal assistants from my firm are now teaching in dc and neither of them had even finished college, much less had any educational psychology or child development, nothing. Just willingness to show up and deal with it every day. No one who is able to do better will work that hard for that little pay. We don\'t care about our childen. We don\'t pay teachers a decent wage. Is the solution to that that women should stay home? What if they can\'t? Is the neglect of children a priori caused by women\'s working, when we know that children thrive in good daycare? ... I suggest to you that the reason the daycare idea never worked out is because men still control the purse strings and men still don\'t feel it\'s a priority.

Look at all the women whose spouses leave them after the children are born, and refuse to pay child support? I know about this firsthand because I worked for child support enforcement in my late teens and I saw hundreds and hundreds of files of women in poverty, left with small children, no wage earner ... damned if they stay home to raise their kids, for being lazy and not working and depending on the government and MY TAXES (get OVER it, we all pay taxes, that some of it should go to childcare is not the worst freaking thing the money could be used for) ... and damned if she goes to work, for neglecting the children ... and god help her if she was the good wife who stayed home and didn\'t work, therefore had no resume ...when her husband ran out with his next conquest, she really was up the creek, no job history, no skills ...

What is it we\'re supposed to do, exactly?

I swore I wasn\'t going to post on this thread.

[belgareth]

Good post red!

[EXIT63]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Teaching does not pay sh!t and it\'s very hard work. Private schools pay LESS than public schools, and public schools pay very little.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Come to Joisey Babee... WE\'RE NUMBER 1...


Ranking of average teachers salaries:
http://www.ncae.org/salaries/salaryrank.pdf (\"http://www.ncae.org/salaries/salaryrank.pdf\")

Or better yet, go to work for the teachers union.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/8/7/171500.shtml (\"http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/8/7/171500.shtml\")

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
According to an internal NEA survey, professional staffers at the New Jersey Education Association rank first nationally with average earnings of $100,018 - nearly twice as much as the state\'s teachers. In Connecticut, ranked second, NEA union pros make $93,115 on average, and salaries in other states have risen by as much as 60 percent since 1991

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

[nonscents]

Can all defenders of the Taliban please raise their hands? C\'mon don\'t be shy. Raise them high!

That\'s right, it\'s women\'s fault. Once the Russkies let women go to school, Afghanistan went to hell in a handbasket. Women could drive. Fuhgeddabout it! That\'s why Kabul streets were so dangerous. And they were doctors, teachers, and bureaucrats. They wore makeup, and, get this, they went outside with their faces exposed for any horny guy to see. Who could blame them if these aroused men raped a few of the more alluring women?

Women shouldn\'t be in the workplace. If they absolutely must leave the home (where they should be taking care of the kids) for some pressing reason, let\'s make sure that they are covered from head to toe.

It\'s a man\'s world. This is a biological fact. You cannot argue with nature. There is no sense constructing social rules which conflict with that which thousands of years of evolution placed in our DNA.

It\'s great that my government went to Afghanistan to root out Bin Laden\'s minions. I sleep more peacefully each night in my Manhattan apartment because of it. But really, let\'s acknowledge that they went too far. The Taliban\'s answer to feminism was right on! As rational folk we ought to be able to distinguish what was good in the Taliban from what was bad. Let\'s not toss the baby out with the bathwater.

[Lucky]

from Whitehall\'s post:
&lt;the government NOT get anymore involved in child care and education than they are now&gt;

I still say Whitehall is on.

The government is big enough for me as it is...I\'m one of the lucky ones that got to pay twice for my children\'s educations; my taxes that went toward their public school education (which was a horrible option) and their private school tuition.

In my opinion, a teacher holds one of the most important and powerful positions in our society and should be compensated as such. How can we place a value on a child\'s development? IF the public school system can be salvaged, why not get rid of the bad teachers and reward the good ones - don\'t ask me how.

Teaching is a job I could never even attempt.

From what I hear, home-schooled children are doing extremely well in colleges. Does that tell us anything?

[Whitehall]

Dear FTR,

I can understand the need for mutual respect in a relationship (I\'ve never suggested anything but...) and to have a full and satisfying sex life, but your personal history posted above makes me ask - just what has feminism done for you?

You don\'t have a husband, you don\'t have any children, AND you have a low wage job. You don\'t seem too happy about any of these conditions. You\'re a very smart woman and you deserve better.

While you are free to make your own life, insofar as feminism has contributed to your situation, it looks to me that feminism has done you little service.

[nonscents]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
While you are free to make your own life, insofar as feminism has contributed to your situation, it looks to me that feminism has done you little service.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And no one here is old enough to remember what it was like when women were treated like second class citizens and treated like infants because they were completely dependent on men. MANY men abused that situation. It would be hard not to. The imbalance of power is too tempting. It ends up the domineering patriarch who holds the purse strings and decides what the wife may and may not do. F*CK THAT. Which is why the feminist fury in the first place. There were not even laws on the books protecting women from spousal abuse or spousal rape. We had NOTHING. Men could treat us any way they felt like.

You want to go back to that?

That ain\'t happening.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I think FTR already answered that one. Her post speaks for itself. But, of course, that won\'t stop me from saying what it says.

The question asks, \"You\'re underpaid. Feminism got you a sh*tty job. You should reject feminism.\"

The answer responds, \"Yeah, there\'s more work to be done. The feminist project is not finished. Young girls today, though, with FTR\'s talent, will not endure the same fetters that encumbered her. But I\'d rather be an independent, autonomous women at a sh*tty job, running my own life, than stuck at home totally dependent on some guy for every penny and every crumb of food.\"

It\'s hard for us guys to imagine why any woman would prefer the single life to marriage.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, I guess I could find me a big daddy to take care of it all, but I\'d rather be independent.

THAT\'s what feminism has done for me. I may not have much, but what I do have is truly my own. I\'ve never had to live at someone else\'s mercy.

I don\'t want a husband. If I wanted to be married, I could have kept the husband I had. Although I sometimes regret that I did not have children, I also sometimes rejoice. Kids are not all they\'re cracked up to be, parents tell me.


I would rather have what I have than live dependent.


EDIT: Nonscents and I posted at the same time so I didn\'t see his until mine was up.

Right on. Exactly.

Perhaps another advantage ... unlike a woman who\'s never worked or had financial burdens or even dependents to provide for, I understand what it\'s like to work hard and struggle a little to make ends meet. I\'m not spoiled, never have been. That makes me a better companion when I do choose to partner. I don\'t whine, cling, pester, or nag; I don\'t ask for anything. I do for myself or go without, and either choice is fine with me because I know I can.

If you knew the women miserable as wife/mother but afraid to leave home even after their childen are grown, because they don\'t have that perfect confidence that they can take care of themselves or hack it somehow no matter how tough it gets, you\'d see why I wouldn\'t trade my life as it is for any amount of material comfort.

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

I would rather have what I have than live dependent.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

And that is the crux of it. If a woman chooses to be dependent and stay at home to raise her kids, that is her choice. But nobody can tell her to do so. It should be a concious decision made before having kids, how we will provide for our children.

It\'s nice to say that you want your wife to stay home and raise the kids and if she wants to, great. But to take an active person, confine them to a home, let them go to the garden club or the hair dressers to gossip once a week, that\'s just short of enslavement. What a horrible waste of a good mind, trap them in a home for the next eighteen years against their will.

To say that feminism did women no good and they should go back to child rearing and home making is akin to saying the american black people who have a tough time of it should go back to slavery where everything could be provided.

I do not believe that child care is the government\'s responibility and am not willing to pay taxes for it. If you choose to have kids, you choose to take the responsibilty to provide for them.

[Lucky]

&lt;Kids are not all they\'re cracked up to be, parents tell me&gt;

How sad.

Those Poor Kids.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There have been a couple of surveys in which the majority of respondents who had children said that if they had it to do over again, they would not have.

What do you think about this? I think the idea that \"single\" is not a viable CHOICE leads to a lot of unhappiness in life. Some of us function better living alone. Marriage and children is not necessarily the objective. I\'ve also read that I\'m not alone in choosing to be single, that more and more people are making that choice. But there is still the tinge of pity from people who, from my perspective, have been brainwashed into thinking that life is not complete without a spouse and kids.

People marry who shouldn\'t and people have children who shouldn\'t ... I wonder if they were encouraged to know themselves better growing up and to choose based on who they really are rather than to achieve a societal norm, if they would have. There is the idea that you can\'t take your place in society if you are not married and reproducing. Single people have a rightful place, too. It would save unhappiness if people didn\'t marry just because they think they\'re supposed to, ditto re having kids.

Rambling today, home with a headache, sorry.

[Whitehall]

I\'m all for personal freedom but....

At some point we have a responsibility to something greater than ourselves. Now women have always had some degree of freedom to do what they want and it is an accepted fact that some people shouldn\'t have children. Yet someone has to assume those burdens. Most people do so willingly but feminism has taught some of our best and brightest women that being a wife and mother is a second class lifestyle. Our society is lessen by that notion and many people have been lead into leading lives that are less than they could have been.

But then I\'m a Capricorn and Red is a Saggitarius.

[Lucky]

I don\'t care even a little bit if people marry or not, or if people have children or not. Doubt if I could find anyone that thinks about it at all.

But, how shameful it must feel being a child produced by a parent who says:

&lt;There have been a couple of surveys in which the majority of respondents who had children said that if they had it to do over again, they would not have.&gt;

[Whitehall]

My first batch of three was not planned and was a huge burden on me at an early age. They know that but I explain that it was the single thing I am most proud of in my life. Also that the experience was one of the most meaningful that any human can experience.

Lot of love between us.

My second batch of two was planned based on my positive experience with the first.

Maybe that\'s why nature made sex so much darn fun - if most of us didn\'t stubble into parenthood, our rational calculations might make for an end to the human race.

If life scrambles your eggs, make an omelet!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have a Capricorn moon.

Whitehall. You\'re so sexist you can\'t see straight. I love you anyway but it\'s just sad. Pause to consider the idea that my contribution to something greater might lie in something other than bearing you children.

I know, I know, the blow to the ego is staggering.

I hope you\'re not going for a wife number three and another batch. ...

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I\'m all for personal freedom but....

At some point we have a responsibility to something greater than ourselves.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Your absolutely right that we have a responsibility to something greater than ourselves. And until we all realize that and stop trying to force others into roles we create for them, this world is going to continue to be more and more screwed up.

The simple fact is that you or I can raise children just as well as a woman can and forcing a woman to do it because it is how nature made us is bull. If you wanted to stay at home and raise children, I would support that as avidly as I support the woman\'s right to go out and work. Personally, I prefer a woman with her own mind and goals. But then, I have little desire to dominate anybody.

[Whitehall]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Whitehall. You\'re so sexist you can\'t see straight.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I guess that\'s meant as an insult. The word is, of course, a feminist construct used to stigmatize those who don\'t agree with the feminist agenda.

Feminism is an ideology that has repeatedly advocated positions that contradicted common sense, received wisdom, and scientific facts. It\'s all been about how to justify \"I wannas\" as \"We oughtas.\"

You make your choices, you live your life, and you accept the responsibilities. My complaint is that feminism has distorted society\'s rules to the detriment of men, women, and children - feminists have forced the costs of their \"independence\" upon others who have not bought into the ideology. Individual feminists have paid prices too - things didn\'t turn out as rosy as promised - many feminists refuse to admit the costs.

BTW, I would indeed be happy to start a third batch - but with a woman who had her priorities in order.

[tallmacky]

It had to happen

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

BTW, I would indeed be happy to start a third batch - but with a woman who had her priorities in order.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

In other words, you would be happy to bring more children into this world to face overpopulation and poor education providing the woman would conform to your desires. Is that what you are saying?

[tallmacky]

I am starting to see this much more clearer, it is never the oppressor who understands, or cares about the oppressed are going through. It always takes years and years and at that time one will never admit it was wrong, or it sucked, but simply who cares and such.

If you had the sucky end of it, where there were many things in the world happening such as invention, the arts such as movie making, writing, or glory gained, you\'d feel the same way. Just about every women would agree they want to be able to do some of the stuff realistically that can be done by both sexes.

The reliances and exploitation some guys use as an argument on mother nature and evolution is growing very weak and very thin. Yes and did evolution think or design us to live in a world wide community, full of inventions exclusion from the woods and forrest, did evolution design us to be in school for 20 year of our life? Did evolution even design us to wear freaking clothes? No human beings were given the gift of free will, and open thought (to a certain extent) we have crafted in a way our own way of life our own prference for living. This notion that a minority of men still have is just a feeling of not wanting to share, hell we all love to feel dominate over someone and use excuses after excuses to justify this. It has been seen in persecution and treatment of almost any time in human history almost anywhere. (South Africa/Germany).

I am not throughinng common sense out of the window, and I am standing by my first posts in this thread. Some things are better suited for the opposite sex, fire fighting is all I can think of as for now.

PS. We always throw purpose and evolution into the spin well look at man himself, a child not brought up with morals and ethics is basically the same as an animal greedy, evil, self centered should we all go back to living butt as naked in the woods, or progess and make things better for everyone.

---

I also heard a story a more of a curse of bad luck that letting women into a whine seller in France is considered bad luck, later on we come to find out that women have a better sense of smell then men and the men were threatened by this and thus you have a \"reason\".

[Whitehall]

Well, the kids would have ME as a father and she would have ME as a husband.

What more could any sane person want out of life?



Seriously, I would no more marry a feminist than I would a Communist or a UFOlogist or a Wiccan.

Any of the above (and there are others) are indicative of a shortage of grounding.

[DrSmellThis]

This is a very interesting discussion.

Clearly, maximal societal benefits result from the maximal utilization of collective individual gifts. There is something plainly wrong-headed about any notion that the mobilization of extra societal resources -- in this case the talents, concern, and skills of women -- could, per se, be bad for society.

Feminism did not start with \"some communist,\" but was a significant movement at least since the time of Plato, in 300 BC. In the Republic, Plato advanced the radical proposition that women should be afforded equal opporunity for education, advancement, and State rule; in his utopian Republic. Further evidence for Plato\'s position can be found in his wonderful play, the Symposium, Wherein lady Diotima\'s speech on the nature of love trumped even that of Socrates, the usual hero in Plato\'s dialogues. Another oft overlooked root of feminism is in the writings of Nietzsche, (approx., 1970-1890) whose ne\'er before seen concept of empowerment fueled every humanistic struggle since, including that of feminism. And of course, we mustn\'t overlook sufferage, in the early 20th century.

That the family unit has broken apart is undeniable. But fatherly wisdom is as much lacking here as is motherly nurturance, in Western culture. The motherly brand of nurturance is not the only \"nurturance\", moreover. It is a fatherly cop-out to suggest otherwise. Bly and others have made the case compellingly, that the lack of good fathering is more prominent than any motherly absence. It is equal at this time, IMO, as regards parenting.

The historical roots of this vacuum lie in the Industrial Revolution, which transformed men from their heretofore presumed role as \"moral teachers\" to that of \"distant breadwinners.\"

The forces of capitalism are extremely efficient and powerful. The telos of capitalism is to exploit all human resources for the puposes of production and consumption. It was a matter of time before women needed to go to the workplace.

I do agree that kids need more parental pesence at home, but the idea that it needs to be moms instead of dads is part of the problem, not the solution. The lack of fathering has left societal lesions everywhere you look, from politics to health care, to education. Our institutions are indeed failing us, and a lack of wisdom is their defining characteristic. I am currently preparing such a case; a book on the \"want of wisdom\" in the West.

[Lucky]

DrSmell,
Why has there been a \"lack of fathering\"?

[belgareth]

TM

Very well said. Thank you.

[tallmacky]

Feminism related to communism? What I think not! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Whether feminism is radical is well up to, you must remember though that no one listened and no one especially males cared too much on how women were treated, their rights and so forth. When it gets to that point and it goes on long enough there really is no other option but to be more poignant with your speeches and more aggressive for your needs.

Think of things that don\'t generally effect you, think of I don\'t know names like \"fat ass\" if you aren\'t fat you may think so what and when you hear that insult it doesn\'t faze you at all, its not your problem right. When a fat girl hears that she may be hurt by that so much that you would never know. It\'s kind of sad how we as people can\'t see the inequalities in treatment among eachother.

PS. I was using the thing as an example lets not hijack this into america\'s kids are fat or something hahah /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

thanks belgareth and nice post dr.smell

[Whitehall]

It\'s not that feminism has mobilized additional resources, it\'s that those resources have been re-directed away from family and civic life to the commercial and material. I live in a fairly affluent neighborhood and it is the stay-at-home moms who make what civic life we have work. Most educators will tell you that the difference in a good school and a bad school is the involvement of parents - largely stay-at-home moms - in making them work above and beyond government spending. Poor neighborhoods where the moms have to work suffer from that lack of involvement. So far as I can see, soccer moms are the last hope of Western Civiliation.

As to parenting, there is a difference in maternal and paternal parenting behavior. IT springs from the sexual dimorphism of the human brain. I\'ve been a single father and there are certain behaviors that are just not hard-wired for a man (and seemingly, vice versa.) I speak from experience - my lack of mothering skills is one thing I regret denying my first batch of children. Yes, a child can\'t have too much love - from either parent.

Of course, the back-and-forth of sexual relations has a long history, one that reinforces Marx\' view of society representing the means of production - society has to adapt to and support how we feed ourselves.

Nietzsche is an interesting character. While I\'ve read him extensively, he was a complete failure in family life - probably dying a virgin and having only a single romantic obsession on record - for Wagner\'s wife (if I remember correctly). He did identify the tone of the \"Modern Era\" correctly but some things are won and some lost in the transformation.

[tallmacky]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
soccer moms are the last hope of Western Civiliation.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gifsure.

I thought this was originally about how American women and feminism has ruined the economy but as I can you are well off. There\'s a negative to every situation, is it that traumatic, or there no other avenues?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Whitehall. You\'re so sexist you can\'t see straight.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I guess that\'s meant as an insult. The word is, of course, a feminist construct used to stigmatize those who don\'t agree with the feminist agenda.

Feminism is an ideology that has repeatedly advocated positions that contradicted common sense, received wisdom, and scientific facts. It\'s all been about how to justify \"I wannas\" as \"We oughtas.\"

You make your choices, you live your life, and you accept the responsibilities. My complaint is that feminism has distorted society\'s rules to the detriment of men, women, and children - feminists have forced the costs of their \"independence\" upon others who have not bought into the ideology. Individual feminists have paid prices too - things didn\'t turn out as rosy as promised - many feminists refuse to admit the costs.

BTW, I would indeed be happy to start a third batch - but with a woman who had her priorities in order.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I did not mean it as an insult. I meant it as an observation. With respect, you remind me very much of the racist who says he doesn\'t mind niggers, everybody should own one, and is genuinely shocked and hurt when it\'s pointed out to him that his point of view is somewhat unenlightened. What scientific facts are you speaking of?

You had children and worked. It\'s ok for you but it\'s not ok for a woman. Why does it not make just as much common sense for you to have stayed home with your children rather than your wife?

I do get the sense from you that you don\'t quite see women as equals. You see them as having certain uses in relation to men. Anything other than those certain uses, it appears to me, are things to which a woman has no right because she\'s a woman.
That\'s sexist as in racist, as in putting an entire class of people in a pigeon hole. It has nothing to do with feminism that I can see, to say that one is sexist.

I\'m astounded at the kick ASS young female attorneys at our firm. I have one in particular in mind - a gorgeous education, highest honors from a seven sisters school, went on to get a ph.d. in physics with a specialty in optics, and then got her law degree, she\'s a superlative patent attorney in an area of patent law that\'s especially hot right now.

Should she not have children? Or, if she does marry and have children, should she have to stay home and be knocked off track for partner because she\'s the woman?

Would it be wrong if she married, had children, and her husband stayed home to raise the children (after they were weaned, of course)?

Seems like soccer dads would not be such a bad thing.

...

In the marriages of the affluent people I\'m acquainted with, the wives do not work. Partner\'s wives generally do not work. Most attorney\'s wives do not work, in fact, whether they have children or not, because someone has to run the household while the attorney is working 60-70 hour weeks over a seven year partner track. But if that attorney were female ... what would you think about her male counterpart taking over the household duties, including child rearing?

Or would you want a woman as focused and brilliant as the one I described to stay home with a baby for up to five years and ruin her career chances.

[tallmacky]

I know where FTR is going with this though her words like sometimes, are a bit too strong, and the lady she speaks of is not my type of argument (repetitive). No o\'s FTR.
-------------------------------

Those who hold and suppress others while being a Hitler like figure, a ignorant redneck, or just someone who spills $hit out of their mouth, have already lost their argument.

Let\'s get something straight there is absolutely no super power group among us human beings. Arguments like this and any other that relates are aging and possibly may die someday (hopefully). Humans have always tried to have a feeling of importance and higher being, and have used others to fill this need, whether it\'s a supposedly heaven sent king and queen or someone hurting someone else because their skin happens to be a little darker, when we can\'t see the physcial side we go farther and fight for the most obnoxious reasons such as religion, look at Ireland for f$ck sake. Are we ever better than anyone? The thing that makes me laugh is at the end of the day we all take a shi$, we all will die, we all are not as important as we think, we are all animals. Why, because you have penis or your skin is lighter you are some how higher up? Of course woo hoo there are much more differnces then what I just said, yes more differences more little insignificant differences that in the end don\'t mean anything (some may effect things in the somewhat rare occassion). I still feel that Human beings by nature itself are not nice creatures, instead we are ignorant, evil, stupid, gross, and self satisifying to name a few. I am not sure what helps all I know is a general understanding of everyone plays a big role.

A man and a women were not created the same, instead we were split into two dynamic roles, hey we are more complex species this was needed, the spreading of different genetics instead of the same old crap every generation and all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. So a ying and a yang were created I guess you could say, no side could possibly be better because they couldn\'t exist without eachother, you take away the women and there is no man and vice versa. For gods sake your mother is a women! Surprisingly men dominated for so long because they were the ones at the end of the day with the money by their side, this along with the teachings of society bound women, yes and even maybe this was also due to mother natures influence.

I would not have a women as a firefighter (say that alot) for obvious reasons? The same goes for men in other roles not sure which ones, hell I am just thinking now :void. Men are also more likely to kill, more likely to molest children, and more likely to be in jail right? Should we contribute all the murders and heartache to the men and talk about how men have ruined everything? Both sides have their weaknesses and strong points for the common good of a collective group (all). When you talk about office jobs I cannot see why a women is at a huge disadvantage? Soccer moms? are they happy sure they could be, but calling soccer moms america\'s whatever you said is stupid you are enforcing the idea that a women should just stay in \"here\" place.

Another addition to my earlier argument, I said we were split etc... We were split to perform to completely different tasks, but mother nature was not so stupid as to leave us enable to perform other tasks if needed, sure its not always as easy but it works and in some cases it works even better. BTW look at female and male scores in school, what\'s the huge difference where women are enable to do anything? Whitehall you are a pretty old guy right (50\'s?)? what if I thought well you are not efficient anymore, your memory is forgetful, your body is not nearly as useful, your quickness has passed away. You old run up America\'s health care system and are completely useless and non-efficient. What if I thought you should stay home and do things fit for a person of your age? Very cold thinking eh? Whoever, well if someone is looking down on us must be laughing at us because we believe and believed that some guy with a crown on his head is godlike, and blah diddy blah blah.

{let the spelling errors ensue.}

[belgareth]

TM

I have only one disagreemant with what you said. Humans are not bad or evil by nature. Other than the hard wiring we are born with, the human mind, like any other creature is pretty much a blank slate to be written on. We are blessed with this wonderful machine we call mind and over the next 70 years or so we fill it with all kinds of stuff. What we fill it with is a reflection of our earliest experiences, that sets much of the pattern for the rest of our lives. If we are taught to be mean, violent or domineering, we probably will be that way forever. If we are raised to be kind, proud and understanding, we will probably be that way the rest of our lives. For that reason, I emphasize that a young child needs the nurturing of both parents, we learn many important things from both. DrSmellThis made some very good points about what we lost in the industrial revolution. We all have an obligation to teach our children.

Both you and FTR are right about the stupid emphasis and external factors. What difference does it make if a person is red, yellow and green striped so long as they do their work to the best of their ability and treat others with decency and respect? The problem is so many narrow minded, unthinking people trying to force their preconceptions onto others. I certainly resent when somebody tries to force me into their mold, I can imagine how a bright, strong willed woman would feel about it. We are an evolving species and the ones that refuse to evolve and learn are the ones who will be left behind. If we are to survive as a species we must accept the changes and make them work to everybody\'s benefit. Trying to keep the old roles just because that\'s the way it used to be is a fatal mistake. It will not work!

Terms like feminism are no different from other ignorant terms used to discribe people different from ourselves in the past. The are unreasonable generalisations that do far more harm than good. We are all of the same species and have no need for such terms.

[EXIT63]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_21/b3834001_mz001.htm (\"http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_21/b3834001_mz001.htm\")


Allright men. Repeat after me!

Yes Dear.

Yes Dear.

Yes Dear.

Yes Dear.

Yes Dear.

[franki]

A recent dutch study showed that women start to dominate in school and college, but they don\'t tend to do the same in the corporate world. Too many hurdles there. Good to see there is still a few places where the men are in command. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif j/k

Do people here agree with me that we need to get rid of affirmative action programs?

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[belgareth]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Do people here agree with me that we need to get rid of all these affirmative action programs?

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Beyond a doubt. All they are is a crutch that weakens the people they are designed to help and a burden on our society. When any group gets preferential treatment, others are rightfully resentful. It ends up causing more troubles than it solves.

I am all for equal opportunity instead. Remove the stigma of gender and race from our thinking.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The boys will catch up.

What\'s going on with the girls FINALLY reflects the reality of the situation: women are in the majority. I love that they overthrew the petty tyrant. Women just a generation ago would have complained amongst themselves but would have thought taking action against the problem highly unladylike. Their behavior today seems to me to be more natural, more genuinely responsive to the circumstances they find themselves in, more unfettered, and that can\'t be anything but good.

Now, some enrichment programs for the boys re reading/writing skills, and we\'ll be golden. If we can get them to sit still for it long enough. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The thing with handwriting and boys seems to start them on a distaste for non-math/science related subjects. I\'m friends with three men who have boys at the age when they\'re learning to write cursive, and they HATE it, won\'t do their homework, are starting to act up ...

How did we manage years ago? They seemed to learn just fine then. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

We don\'t have good role models for the boys as regards literacy at all. \"Smart\" only resides in the arena of calculable data. We\'re sort of an anti-literate society it seems to me.

[franki]

FTR, I heard education nowadays is too feminine. Girls skills are much more rewarded than boys skills, which is one of the reason that boys drop out of the school system.

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[upsidedown]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Do people here agree with me that we need to get rid of affirmative action programs?

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Franki, do they have affirmative actions programs in Germany, or are you talking about the one\'s we have in the U.S.A.?

[franki]

I believe they have them it too, but the USA is famous for it. I was talking about affirmative action in general (everywhere in the world).

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[EXIT63]

Perhaps we should separate the boys from the girls in certain subjects (or completely). Then we could focus more on what works best for each group rather than a one size fits all. Didn\'t they used to do that back in the old days?

You know what I think is another big problem...SUGAR. I\'ve read somewhere that Americans consume many many times more sugar today than they did a hundred years ago. That could be a big contributor to why alot of these kids are bouncing off the walls. Is doping up the kids really an answer?

[upsidedown]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

You know what I think is another big problem...SUGAR.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

When I started substitute teaching I was astounded that they now have vending machines with soft drinks and candy in every school...even the elementary schools. They never did anything like that when I was in grade school. Soft drinks were verboten back then!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

You know what I think is another big problem...SUGAR.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

When I started substitute teaching I was astounded that they now have vending machines with soft drinks and candy in every school...even the elementary schools. They never did anything like that when I was in grade school. Soft drinks were verboten back then!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I\'m still not comfortable with the fact that I\'m old enough now to talk like an old person, but here goes the cliche ...Back in MY day ... soft drinks were a treat. I think most of our kids could use better nutrition - but they\'ll pick french fries and Coke over broccoli and water, and we put it out there for them. If I had children I guarantee you I\'d raise hell and get the vending machines and junk food out of the schools.

I don\'t know about school being too feminine, maybe it is. I haven\'t been in a public school since the mid eighties. But ... you always had to sit still and shut your mouth and raise your hand to be called on, and that was much stricter when I was a child than it has been in the past, say, twenty years, and both sexes seemed to do all right. I had the impression that boy\'s schools were strict as well. And there have always been more male drop outs than female.

[tallmacky]

Were Affirmitive action programs needed yes at a time they were needed and rightfully so, as of now no, not really, sure it causes much disdain and the myths and rumors about minorities going to college for free and so on seem to cause more problems then actually helping the situation.

I wonder if they have affirmitive action for whites in South Africa?

[tallmacky]

Belgareth,

Totally blank slates? I think before society as an influence on anyone we act in a way to better ourselves before anyone, if you have noticed that younger children are often very greed, manipulative, \"bad\", and often hurt others including children, some even most adults never fully grow out of this thus resulting in the same behavior of a 6 year old.

Kind of reminds me of \"The Lord of the Flies\"

[belgareth]

TM,

Ok, we are going to have to start with the assumption that we are all animals with a thin layer of civilization overlaying our basic nature. Animals are not born mean or evil or good or gentle, they are taught to be that way. They are a product of their environment. When they are born, their minds are blank slates. All they want is to be fed and cuddled. Those are hard wired needs. There are others that develop over time, such as hunting and terratorial instincts.

To signal the need to be fed and cuddled, they only know how to cry. Since crying illicits the desired response, it teaches them that crying will get what they want. Over time, we learn other methods of signalling our wants. Hopefully, the people around us are teaching us positive ones. A child raised in a negative environment wlll have negative behavoirs. A child raised in a loving and balanced environment will learn to respond in the same way.

Consider what type environment a child is in if they only know anger and violence. Then think about the same child that lives in an environment where smiles and laughter are big part of there environment. If, as they get older, their angry demands get no response or a response that is not what they wanted, but a positive method gets the response they want, what will they learn? It\'s kind of like the idea of hot, a kid must learn that they will get an unpleasant sensation from something that is hot before they understand not to touch things that are hot. By the same token, if a child throws a temper tantrum and the parent utterly ignores it, the child quickly learns that is a waste of time and doesn\'t do it anymore. If the parent gives in to a temper tantrum, many more will follow. I am not sayin not to punish either, well balanced punishment is an important part of the growth of any animal.

All this is assuming a normal child, of course. There are many problems that are relateed to physical defects and deseases that must be dealt with as well.

[Whitehall]

Frankly, what I\'m reading from Red are ad hominem insults (first \"sexist\" then \"reminds me of racist\") followed by desperate evasiveness and a bad case of \"putting words in the mouths of others\" (what\'s the latin word for that?).

Its not a question of equality or career options - men and women are different and have different roles to play in the preservation of our species and of our civiliation. Women have had relative freedom to pursue self-chosen lifestyles for a long time in Western civilizations and I don\'t advocate using the force of law to restrict women from doing anything (other than serving in combat arms and doing the nasty in the streets.)

Feminists, on the other hand, have captured the machinery of government and corporations, and now impose their ideology on men and women in our country using force of law. Education and media are also enlisted to spread the ideology. I criticize the wisdom of feminist ideology and point out the costs that are paid by women and children (and men!) You are purposely silent on those costs, especially when you\'ve paid them yourself.

You rejoin with demands for \"freedom\" while imposing feminism using the police power of the state.

Madam, your emotions on the subject have blinded you to the bald fact that what you are advocating is an Orwellian hypocrisy as in \"Slavery is Freedom.\"

[MOBLEYC57]

\"Animals are not born mean or evil or good or gentle, they are taught to be that way.\"

From one end of the earth to the other!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif It\'s an ugly world isn\'t it? Not! They\'re ugly people on it with their ugly ideas! Changes and their chain reactions! Wheeeeew! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif No, Slavery isn\'t Freedom...Freedom isn\'t Freedom! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[belgareth]

Slavery isn\'t Freedom...Freedom isn\'t Freedom!

The only freedom lies within ourselves. We decide if we are free or not, if others are to determine our paths for us. Each of us is responsible to make our own decisions and to live with the consequences, that is true freedom.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Whitehall. If it\'s easier on you to blame the failure of your marriage on feminism than to look at other possible causes, I won\'t further trouble your peace of mind on the subject.

I have not had maybe the most felicitous of circumstances in my life, but feminism is not to blame for any unhappiness I\'ve experienced and I think the very notion ridiculous. It\'s somewhat surreal that a man as intelligent as yourself would continually spout such nonsense. My marriage failed because I exercised extremely poor judgement in choice of a husband. It\'s no one\'s fault but my own, and it\'s certainly not the fault of feminism.

But hey. Damn feminists are taking over the world, and they make your dick shrink, too. They\'re probably also responsible for global warming, inner city crime, and a host of other ills.

I\'m sure you know best, dear, and I\'m probably wrong on the entire subject. But to my limited perception, you appear unable to be rational on the subject, and that makes me poke you about it.

Apologies.

R

[Whitehall]

Here\'s a link to a very thoughtful and insightful discussion on the subject - much better than anything I could put together. It\'s entitled \"Social Capital.\" Obviously, some of us here can\'t take part in a civil discussion without degenerating into emotional insults.

The author is Francis Fukuyawa, an intellectual super-star and author of \"The End of History.\" He\'s professor at some big name university and used to be in the State Department.

It\'s a long read but it ties together what we understand about biology, evolution, and social sciences to describe \"The Great Disruption.\" I think it\'s one of the best summaries available and comes to much the same conclusions as our original posting above. There are few exceptions one could take, like the minor technical issue of sperm warfare, but it is very comprehensive.

http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/Fukuyama98.pdf (\"http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/Fukuyama98.pdf\")

While I saw no mention of global warming, the article makes a good case that feminism is, if not the cause, at least another symptom of a decrease in \"social capital\" in western societies along with child abuse, violent crime, and illegitimacy. Maybe some of you are personally enjoying our era of social decadence, but feminism has clearly come with a cost to society. Advocates of feminism are putting forth an ideology that are contrary to human nature. Oddly, the main beneficiaries are males, who now see a decrease in their responsibilites and obligations. I especially loved the graph charting the rate of \"shotgun\" marriages over time in the US.

[koolking1]

What a topic!!! I just read a psychiatrist\'s theory that it was realized in the 1950s that, for the first time in the history of the world, a unique class of women came to be created (from the 1920s thru the 1950s) : these were the women who had been stay-at-home moms who later become essentially useless to society when the kids were grown and gone. They spent their time mainly buying cosmetics to make themselves look younger (of course, fooling only themselves). I can\'t say that I long for a return of those days!!! I think having American women in the workforce is a good thing - I like being around them myself, I trust them to do a good job and they almost always do. I\'ve also had female bosses and found them to be fair and often smarter than some of my male bosses. I don\'t blame them for the diminished wages, it is generally accepted now that to make it in this world, both partners in a marriage need to work to be financially stable. The \"barons\" set the wages and we have to live with that or organize unions, etc.. I also readily sympathise with the computer folks, programmers,etc., who have to deal with the imported foreign workers. After having spent most of my adult life overseas in the Air Force and having had quite a few foreign workers under my supervision, give me an American. The foreigners always have a quicker way to get things done and they will do it that way if you aren\'t careful in watching them. Of course, their way is also the easy way and they tend to overlook the long-term consequences of their actions (well, why should they care anyways - it\'s not their country that\'s benefiting) and I usually wound up having to fix the problems they created with their short-sightedness. When I go to the supermarket and I see these giant fresh-water shrimps that sell for $16.95 a pound, I\'ll mention to the sales clerk that these shrimp have been grown in Sri Lanka and are really only worth about $5.00 a pound because the poor workers who have toiled to grow these things are only being paid .13 cents a day, I get looks from the clerk like I\'m off my rocker. Why, well, because the fish monger didn\'t get a good education and doesn\'t understand the reality of the matter. It bothers me to no end to realize that so many people here in the USA can\'t spell, can\'t write coherently, and usually don\'t read much because it isn\'t easy for them - the things they miss in life - yikes!!! I realize I\'m rambling on here but I just had to get my grudges published. American men and women do try harder and we\'ve let a lot of them down with poor educations, it\'s too bad really. Instead of bashing each other, we should love each other and try to make ALL of our American lives better, including the immigrants who come here to be Americans and not just to make a quick buck that buys them a better life back home.

[koolking1]

Oh... and for those of you that think size does matter, I\'ve come up with the ultimate measuring tool, it measures both depth and width, I call it my dick. Anybody need it???

[belgareth]

Koolking:

How refreshing, an open-minded and progressive outlook. Thank you for your posting. It’s always amazing the spurious arguments people will make to support their biases or a desired outcome. Calling somebody a great thinker has always been a signal to me that we would be getting into another of these ‘Let’s go back to the way things were’ arguments. They seem utterly unable to grasp the concept that you cannot put the chick back in the shell after the egg has hatched. It’s time to move on and grow. We, as both a species and a society, are evolving and these narrow minded attempts to halt our evolution are nothing short of blatant escapism. They also completely disregard the tremendous contributions the ‘other side’ has made to the general welfare and knowledge.

Just for the record, Clinton, Ford, Kennedy, Hitler, Brezhnev, Freud and Mussolini were all considered to be great thinkers too. It would be a lot of fun to watch somebody try to follow all of them at once.

Whitehall:

The article uses the argument of human nature, which is one of the most fallacious arguments going, to support their position. Human nature began to decline as a factor in our affairs not long after we learned to harness fire and make crude stone tools. Prior to that, it was human nature to forage for food as a family/tribal unit with each individual doing a share of the gathering. With the ability to use tools, mankind changed, evolved into a hunter where, for a while, strength did matter. As a result, the male became dominant. But that was a temporary arrangement, outside the natural order of our species and fairly short lived in evolutionary terms. If you want to argue human nature, should we decriminalize rape? It is a perfectly natural, male dominated act.

What does decadence have to do with the role of man and women? After reading the article and considering other factors, I believe there is no relationship. A good example was the Roman Empire. Women were second class citizens and relegated to womanly tasks such as housekeeping, mothering and prostitution. They had no voting rights or say in their society, yet their society was truly decadent and it did fall! Another good question is why the handful of cultures that raise children in a group, by the whole village, are some of the most peaceful and well adjusted while the male dominated societies, such as our own as well as the Arabic cultures are violent, aggressive and domineering? Look at the input our children receive from the world around them: We’re bigger and stronger and have better weapons, therefore we are right! Because we are stronger, we are going to tell you how to live and rule. Can you honestly say that our government, which is becoming daily more oppressive, is a good government? You probably will say it because I believe you support that oppression, it’s inherent in your statements about controlling others’ behavior. My belief is that any person who desires to rule others should be kept out of all forms of government. They are obviously unstable due to their need to dominate others and are a menace to a well run society.

Why did the Roman Empire fall? Or, better yet, why is our society failing? Your article was a good example of the failing in our society. Escapism: it isn’t my fault, blame that group over there. You can justify any action with argument, so long as you ignore any facts that don’t fit. That is exactly what the article does. It skips over a million years of human evolution to pick out only the bits and pieces that justify the writer’s position. The rest is regarded as irrelevancy. Another failing in our society is the desire and support for instant gratification. Fulfilling the desire for instant gratification only teaches us that we can have whatever we want, whenever we want with no concern for repercussions. That results in the decadence you speak of.

Instead of trying to tell others how to live and passing the buck, try taking on some of the responsibility. You cannot take women out of the workforce, nor can you force them back into a subservient role. You may as well stop wasting time and energy trying. You will help yourself and society as a whole by helping them to grow and develop as humans beings. Our strictly male dominated rule has resulted in many great accomplishments, many of them a result of women, but at least as many atrocities, as well. Try equality for a change and stop trying to dominate and force others to your beliefs. Try taking responsibility for making this world a better place for everybody. Any forcibly ruled society is only good for those who rule it, the rest suffer the indignities of the ruler’s oppression. Teach yourself, then teach others around you and teach your children to be self-sufficient, responsible adults instead of subservient second class citizens subject to the ruling class’s whims.

As a final comment, I do not support feminism or affirmative action, decadence or materialism. They are all losing positions. I support treating every person equally and giving each one an equal chance. Your vision of a society does none of that. Yours is a vision of control, dominance and aggression that only serves the stronger without regard for the individual.

[Elana]

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Oh... and for those of you that think size does matter, I\'ve come up with the ultimate measuring tool, it measures both depth and width, I call it my dick. Anybody need it???


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Sure.....I\'ll take some of that

[Whitehall]

I think Belagarth has hit upon a core difference in our positions. Science and the \"conservative\" view is that human nature is largely unchangable. Our behaviors are hardwired to a large extent through selective evolution. In making our societies, we need to be clear-eyed about what we have to work with - what can be changed and what can not.

\"Liberals\" respond that humans are changable and can be molded to meet our wishes. To some extent that is true. of course.

A \"conservative\" would say that we can overcome to some degree human nature but you can\'t change it. You can structure rewards and responsibilities to make human nature work for you.

A political example is Madison in the Federalist Papers. He knew that men will compete for power over their fellows - always have, always will. Teach a man otherwise is fruitless. His answer was to structure the government so that ambitions would be set against ambition.

Telling young women that they should act like men leaves women frustrated and leaves no one to do the essentials that women do and men can\'t.

Fukuyama\'s paper on social capital captures what we understand about human nature and society. Our pheromone experiments explore and expand what we know too.

[belgareth]

I simply believe that we can become whatever we choose to be. Telling an ambitous young woman that she must act like a housewife is rediculous, as is telling a young man that he cannot stay at home and nurture his offspring. Our animal foundations are secondary to our intellects, otherwise we would still be a minor species living in caves. Almost everything we do is unnatural.
As I said before, since we cannot put the chick back in the egg, let\'s get over it and move on. Women are a part of the workforce for good or ill. Learn to deal with it and stop trying to tell them how to live.

My contention is that our government has overstepped and contiues to overstep it\'s bounds and places an enormous burden on the people. If anything, the downfall of our civilization is more directly related to overgoverning than to women in the workforce.

It is true that humans will compete for power, a select few will at least. Outside of those anti-social few, mankind is perfectly capable of getting along with itself. Those who govern have a vested interest in proving we are basically unchangable. I learned to never take the word of a person who has a vested interest in the issue.

[Whitehall]

I\'ll let you have the last word...

[tallmacky]

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I\'ll let you have the last word...


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Hah, that was great WH, reminds me of Bill O\'Reilly.

All around (Belgareth, Whitehall) great debating guys, it was exciting and enlightening to read everyone\'s side of the argument.

[belgareth]

Whitehall:

It was a good debate, thank you. I haven\'t had so much fun in ages.

I doff my hat to a worthy opponent /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Shall we agree to disagree at this point?

[Elana]

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Shall we agree to disagree at this point?

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Good idea! Let\'s all get naked /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[CptKipling]

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Shall we agree to disagree at this point?

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Good idea! Let\'s all get naked /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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Good \'ole Elana!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[belgareth]

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Shall we agree to disagree at this point?

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Good idea! Let\'s all get naked /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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A fine idea!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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Shall we agree to disagree at this point?

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Good idea! Let\'s all get naked /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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Can I wear some lingerie instead? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[belgareth]

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Shall we agree to disagree at this point?

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Good idea! Let\'s all get naked /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Can I wear some lingerie instead? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Depends, let\'s see some picts.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
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Shall we agree to disagree at this point?

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Good idea! Let\'s all get naked /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Can I wear some lingerie instead? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Depends, let\'s see some picts.

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Check your abln mail. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Whitehall]

How did \"Dispassionate\" morph into \"Da Passionate\"?

Oh well. I will of course agree to disagree - I think we all understand each others\' worldview - these are classic differences and will never be resolved.

As to the \"liberal\" view - \"Hope springs eternal...\"

and let\'s hope we always have hope.

[belgareth]

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I think we all understand each others\' worldview - these are classic differences and will never be resolved.

As to the \"liberal\" view - \"Hope springs eternal...\"

and let\'s hope we always have hope.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

No, Whitehall, you are still missing the point. I reject liberalism as well. Liberals do not believe in personal accomplishment and responsibility, they have a Robin Hood mentality. Hope does spring eternal and I do believe in the humans\' basic goodness. But that can only be brought to it\'s full potential when we stop telling people how to live and what to be. Encourage each one to think for themselves and stop training one-upmanship into our children.

Both the conservative and the liberal belive we can legislate morality. In attempting to do so, we create an artificial crutch to lean on that robs a person of the inititive to accomplish.

Both the liberals and the conservatives would build a society of increasingly oppressive rule. Over time, anything that isn\'t forbidden becomes mandatory. With each increase in the rules, a little more inititive is taken until we are a stagnant society. The decadence we see is caused by the natural rebellion against unneeded rules and by the contempt created when we either cannot or will not enforce those rules. There are no consequences, only rules.

In your worldview, you take away something, tell them they cannot have it, when your back is turned, many will gorge on the forbidden fruit just to despite you. To prevent that, you need to build bigger and stronger police states and armies. In my worldview, each person is taught from earliest childhood to take responsibility for their actions and pride in themselves. Society as a whole rejects the non-productive ones without the need to create rules. Utopian? Sure. But why not aspire to a higher level than the increasing oppression we live under today? Your freedoms are being taken away from you at a steady rate. Where does it stop?

Do you yourself obey all the rules of your society, freely and willingly? DO you ignore some of the rules because they do not fit your personal desires? If you flout even the simplist of rules, you cannot demand that others obey the rules without becoming a hypocite. You\'ll argue the grey area between but that attitude is the core of the problem. You cannot pick and choose which rules you obey while refusing others the same privilage. Nor can you choose which rules should be enforced. Either approach undermines the very fabric of the society you are trying to create.

[EXIT63]

HMMMM, Your views intrigue me...And I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[marv14yag]

Ok, I think it\'s time for Bart\'s opinion.

I believe it all has to do with everyone trying to GAIN something.

I don\'t believe the women had any problem with the way things were, they were happy. They wanted what EVERYONE WANTS \"more\".

it did work out better that way.

Because onlyt he man worked he got 2 times the moeny. Becuase women wanted to work, they lowereed what hte man gets. Racism, not racism, you can\'t really argue about that really.

It\'s all just relative...

It just works better when everyone knows their role.

Basically, the problem is people are caged predators.

When that happens EVERYTHING F**S UP!

People eat, instead of 1 times a day but 3-6 times a day even!!!

People wear clothes to hide themselves.

Fe-males take on problems as males.

People get raped.

Incest.

Economics fall because everyone gets less for their effort!

Basically, evolution. You go agaisnt it, YOU GET BURNED!

You eat too often, you get FAT!

Men work, women work, you get paid half as much.

Men are better at working, women are better at nurting...It\'s a face, it\'s EVOLUTION!

If evolution wanted men and women to both work, than there would be no MAN AND WOMAN!

Evoultion dictates that men and women are DIFFERENT!

There are animals that can self replicate.

OBVIOUSLY we CAN\'T!

As far as equality. I don\'t see how following your role has ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT!

In fact, these stay at home dads are just LAZY and take advantage because THEY DON\'T WANT TO WORK!

Just like, when animals are caged, they turn GAY!

lol

Just like how fe-males wnat to work males want to f*ck other males, and vice versa.

Eqaulity?

Everyone\'s human...

But, they have their roles.

Neither is better, I don\'t think working is exactly BETTER....

And, staying at home, etc.

They both have advantages.

It\'s just...Women are better able to deal with one, and men another. Becuase we live in cages we have to creat the stimulus.
That\'s why people are gay, not happy, etc.

I can go on.

But

My point?

Do what evolution says.

We have not evolved past 6,000 years.

So, do like 6,000 years ago.

Men hunt.
Women make the nest.

The man didn\'t beat the woman thouh, that\'s what equality is!

Bart

[druid]

bart has such a way with words (and a grasp on the grammar of the english lanuage I might add).

[tallmacky]

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We have not evolved past 6,000 years.

So, do like 6,000 years ago.

Men hunt.
Women make the nest.


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummmm, are we still out in the woods hunting? Are we out there half @ss naked trying to kill a wild pig? Why and what the hell would be the point to \"do the same as generations ago.\" We may not be evolving physcially but mentally the human race was created to do much of evolution within it\'s societies etc....

I don\'t see how anyone can think like this, like a brick for someone who throws around \"new age\" ideas it seems kind of simplistic. \"Women don\'t want to work\"? What!!! women want money, women want to make their career dreams come true, what really are you in societies eyes without a job a career? Lastly no one ever said hunting was even comparable to a job, in most modern day jobs the physical differences of the sexes does not even play the slightest role. If anyone is to look at our path it\'s so obvious. Women will work and women should work, nothing is static and if it would that would be a negative force. There are alot of temporary loses, look at war, no one wanted those numbers of death, but look at the outcome? I don\'t get why anyone spins Evolution in this as a last ditch effort to get some factual proof.

Why is this issue even spoken of, it\'s already happened it will continue to happen and there is nothing you can do about it now, thousands of years of suppression and now in our modern society we are ready to throw it away. Why start to ignore the genius and creativity of half a population like days gone by? Has your life changed radically, are you able to life comfortably?

PS. A lot of the guys who have a problem with this seem to miss, or desire power or dominance, maybe it\'s a natural feeling for some.