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View Full Version : 100 Children freed from Iraqi Prison by US Troops



Whitehall
04-08-2003, 04:13 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1514&e=4&u=/afp/20030408/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_marines_prison_030408163048 (\"http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1514&e=4&u=/afp/20030408/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_war_marines_prison_030408163048\")

EXIT63
04-08-2003, 05:11 PM
I\'m sure it\'s all a setup by the CIA. We couldn\'t possibly be doing anything good. After all, we\'re conquerors. Not liberators.

Well, I have to go back to my bunker now and continue cowering in fear while awaiting the terrorist attack. Oh God, why did Bush have to get us into this. We should\'ve just listened to the French!

**DONOTDELETE**
04-08-2003, 06:00 PM
CHILDREN imprisoned for up to five years for refusing to join some faction? How is that possible?

Andy
04-09-2003, 12:14 AM
Reminds me somehow of the daughter of the embassador of Kuwait in the US. She claimed prior to the first gulf war that she\'d be a nurse in kuwait and iraq troops would kill babies in the hospitals there. She has been identified by security and service of the Embassy a few days later, but the US citizens have been already in a rage.

franki
04-09-2003, 02:15 AM
Hey Whitehall, I don\'t know if you noticed, but that article was from the AFP, the french press-agency, writing something positive about the american actions in Iraq ...

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Whitehall
04-09-2003, 07:05 AM
Granted - we are grateful to AFP for this story.

MadDoctor
04-09-2003, 05:01 PM
Hate to be nitpicky, but the article doesn\'t say US forces let the kids out, it says \"It was not clear who had opened the doors of the prison.\"

upsidedown
04-09-2003, 05:38 PM
Mad Docotor, you frustrate me. It\'s as if you have absolutely NOTHING good to say about the United States. Why do you still live here? Why haven\'t you moved to another country that\'s more to your liking?

Regardless of WHO opened the door, it never would have happened if not for the war. So, it\'s the U.S. effort tha allowed for the children getting out....regardless of who actually opened the door. If you had gotten your way, and there had been no war, those children would be in there rotting for another 12 + year or more.

MadDoctor
04-09-2003, 06:11 PM
It wasn\'t meant to be a critique of the US, it just made my journalistic training kick in. I was taught to make sure that the headline and the story didn\'t contradict each other.

When I critique governments, it\'s not ambiguous or nitpicky.

In other contexts, I have absolutely railed against governments like China, Burma, and various other countries for their lack of respect for human rights. My criticism of the US totally pales in comparison. First and foremost, I am a human being, I look out for my fellow human beings, and hope they would do the same for me if I needed it. To me, killing is killing, oppression is oppression, and it doesn\'t matter to me in the least where it occurs or who is doing it, I will do what I can to oppose it.

As Oscar Wilde said, \"The brotherhood of man is not a mere poet\'s dream; it is a most depressing and humiliating reality.\"

And, as H.L. Mencken said, \"The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.\"

proteus
04-09-2003, 06:27 PM
If one child is saved from a prison it\'s a great thing. But I won\'t kid myself into believing that the folks who started this war had any concern for children. If they did there are numerous other countries who are allies of the United States who treat children and their citizens just as abominably. If this was the purpose of this war I hope we go to all the other countries who are guilty of the same and free their innocents. Anyway, the war is won it appears and the only question I have is who is next - Korea, Syria, Iran?? I don\'t think this Iraq is the end of it but I\'ll be happy if I\'m proven wrong.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-09-2003, 06:38 PM
Upsidedown, I\'m surprised at you.


MadDoctor was pointing out a fact about the text of the article.


How did you get from that to accusing him of being unpatriotic?


How\'s this for cynicism, and I\'m as big a patriot as you could want, would gladly die for my country - I think the story\'s a plant. I don\'t believe CHILDREN were imprisoned for their political beliefs or lack thereof. That makes no sense in any culture. I think it may have been an orphanage.


That story reeks to me of propaganda. Now, don\'t tell me you don\'t believe we\'re propagandized just like any other country? ...

upsidedown
04-09-2003, 07:01 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Upsidedown, I\'m surprised at you.


MadDoctor was pointing out a fact about the text of the article.


How did you get from that to accusing him of being unpatriotic?


How\'s this for cynicism, and I\'m as big a patriot as you could want, would gladly die for my country - I think the story\'s a plant. I don\'t believe CHILDREN were imprisoned for their political beliefs or lack thereof. That makes no sense in any culture. I think it may have been an orphanage.


That story reeks to me of propaganda. Now, don\'t tell me you don\'t believe we\'re propagandized just like any other country? ...



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Well, I apologize if I misread his intentions. But, up to this point everything I have ever seen him write has been negative-negative-negative regarding the United States. But, I didn\'t call him unpatriotic, but was commenting on how he has never had anything positive to say about this country, and this seemed like another attempt to deny that our people have done anything positive. From what I\'ve read he has often seemed to imply ulterior motives into everything that this country does...and has never been open to the possibility that maybe people are doing things with the right motives. I\'m sorry, but that\'s just how everything he\'s written has come across to me. I know that others on this board have gotten this impression from his comments as well. Again, I apologize if I misread his meaning on this one post....but I was reading that last post in the context of all his other posts.

Of course I believe that propaganda occurs all over. But, remember, that story came from a French source. If it\'s propaganda, then give our guys credit for some really slick work pulling that one off.

Elana
04-09-2003, 09:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
That story reeks to me of propaganda. Now, don\'t tell me you don\'t believe we\'re propagandized just like any other country? ...

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Why wouldn\'t you think this story is true? The things that go on in some Middle East countries would shock you. This is the first of many horror stories that will surface about the treatment of innocent civilians.

Elana
04-09-2003, 09:30 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Regardless of WHO opened the door, it never would have happened if not for the war. So, it\'s the U.S. effort that allowed for the children getting out....regardless of who actually opened the door. If you had gotten your way, and there had been no war, those children would be in there rotting for another 12 + year or more.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Agreed USD

EXIT63
04-10-2003, 04:55 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Upsidedown, I\'m surprised at you.


MadDoctor was pointing out a fact about the text of the article.


How did you get from that to accusing him of being unpatriotic?


How\'s this for cynicism, and I\'m as big a patriot as you could want, would gladly die for my country - I think the story\'s a plant. I don\'t believe CHILDREN were imprisoned for their political beliefs or lack thereof. That makes no sense in any culture. I think it may have been an orphanage.


That story reeks to me of propaganda. Now, don\'t tell me you don\'t believe we\'re propagandized just like any other country? ...



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Wake up Red, have some coffee /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I guess they made this story up too.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/897497.asp (\"http://www.msnbc.com/news/897497.asp\")

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2003, 05:17 AM
Don\'t matter to me if the story is true or not. It just makes me sit up and take notice if someone is accused of not loving their country if they make criticisms. Questioning authority and civil disobedience are part of our civic duties as Americans - and it\'s especially important to read media with a skeptical eye.

I think the story is a hoax because children don\'t have the volition to refuse to join parties to the extent that they could be imprisoned. If you tell a five year old what\'s what and he\'s by god going to join the whatever party, what\'s he gonna say to you? I refuse, it\'s against my conscience, lock me up for it, I don\'t care? It just doesn\'t make sense. For example - my ass got dragged to Sunday school and church every Sunday of my natural life whether I wanted to go or not. How can some Iraqi child refuse to politically align himself as ordered? What would be his motivation and how could he have escaped authority to that extent?

hoodas
04-10-2003, 06:08 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
But I won\'t kid myself into believing that the folks who started this war had any concern for children. If they did there are numerous other countries who are allies of the United States who treat children and their citizens just as abominably. If this was the purpose of this war I hope we go to all the other countries who are guilty of the same and free their innocents. Anyway, the war is won it appears and the only question I have is who is next - Korea, Syria, Iran?? I don\'t think this Iraq is the end of it but I\'ll be happy if I\'m proven wrong.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Good point, this is exactly my beef with the way our government is portraying this war - Operation Iraqi Freedom, well we need to have many more freedom operations around the world, oh wait a minute I forgot there is no oil in those poor African countries or in Kashmir or . . . (the list could go on, and I am sure many will disagree with the oil comment /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

franki
04-10-2003, 06:14 AM
The fact that there are other countries that (maybe) need to be liberated, is not an argument against the liberation of Iraq. Not that I am happy with this \"liberation\" rhetoric from the Bush-administration, but you have to start SOMEWHERE, and why not Iraq?

Franki /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MadDoctor
04-10-2003, 07:33 AM
&lt;&lt;Well, I apologize if I misread his intentions. But, up to this point everything I have ever seen him write has been negative-negative-negative regarding the United States. But, I didn\'t call him unpatriotic, but was commenting on how he has never had anything positive to say about this country, and this seemed like another attempt to deny that our people have done anything positive. From what I\'ve read he has often seemed to imply ulterior motives into everything that this country does...and has never been open to the possibility that maybe people are doing things with the right motives. I\'m sorry, but that\'s just how everything he\'s written has come across to me.&gt;&gt;

It\'s not the US, it\'s humans carrying out a political process. Take the war haggling in the Security Council, for example. Did I ever say anything nice about the French or Russian position, even though I thought the war unnecessary? No. Why? Because their espousal of peace was still tainted. Both of those countries had very large oil contracts with Iraq, so in calling for peace they were also looking out for their own pocketbooks. That\'s how politics is, almost always. If it\'s not in the interest of someone with clout, it stands little chance of winning. The exceptions really stick out like a sore thumb in most countries. The setup which will go into effect later this year, where people will be able to call a number and never be contacted by a phone solicitor again? Absolutely amazing, I love it! Laws like that, which benefit the vast majority equally, even with opposing business interests, are SO rare.

To throw out another Mencken quote: \"Government is actually the worst failure of civilized man. There has never been a really good one, and even those that are most tolerable are arbitrary, criminal, grasping, and unintelligent.\"

Take the last election in California. The incumbent governor had this record of deciding his vetoes based on political donations. The challenger was under indictment for shady business practices. While that proved that both were eminently qualified to be politicians, I couldn\'t bring myself to vote for either of them -- choosing the lesser evil is, after all, still choosing evil. But that\'s nothing unique about California or the US, it\'s business as usual almost everywhere.

The governments that I think are worst I don\'t even publically gripe about much, because I know that they won\'t care what random Americans might say about them. Instead, I act against their tyranny. Over the last few years, I\'ve spent many an unpaid hour working on cryptography and protocol design for software which allows human rights workers to report from despotic countries without endagering their lives too much. They can tell headquarters things like who is running the local death squads, and not have that communication be surveilled. This ability has resulted in prosecutions of persons who committed crimes against humanity in places like South America and Yugoslavia. The same software can be used by people in places like China and the Arab countries to circumvent the national Internet filters and get access to otherwise censored sites. While such tools can also evade monitoring done by the US, none of my acquaintences in the NSA and DoD have ever complained about what myself and my friends do. There was even a bill put forward to fund it, although my group decided that we didn\'t want to be beholden to any government, and declined.

Just for the record, my feelings about government aren\'t based on ignorance. I wrote my first public policy in 1982, I wrote some last week, and I will write some this week. I do everything I can to try and make sure that government does some things which are purely for the public good. Benevolent subversion, as it were. Not everyone in government is all bad.

Hope that\'s clearer... the fact that I gripe about our government means that I don\'t yet think it\'s beyond redemption. Hell, I *work* with and for parts of the government, and I would flee a lot of countries rather than aid them in their misrule. I\'m a much bigger thorn in the side of governments which really are hopeless. In my own small way, I\'ve been a pain in the ass to Saddam Hussein for some time now, and have loved every minute of it.

Whitehall
04-10-2003, 11:22 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Take the last election in California. The incumbent governor had this record of deciding his vetoes based on political donations.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Someone asked me how I\'d feel if, say, the Japanese army was camped in Sacramento. I replied that if they were pulling a regime change in the government of the State of California I\'d be handing out flowers too.

[No, I wasn\'t serious! - just a joke.]

Gerund
04-10-2003, 11:43 PM
Speaking of States, anybody see that AP feed about making Iraq the 51st State?

Whitehall
04-11-2003, 08:07 AM
This notion was discussed at some length in Fallows\' article in the Atlantic Monthly a while back. It was meant as a jokey way of saying that our responsibilities there may prove a burden.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/fallows.htm (\"http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/fallows.htm\")

upsidedown
04-11-2003, 11:48 AM
The story in the link doesn\'t relate to the story about the children, but it is similar in it\'s discussion of life in Saddam\'s Iraq.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/11JORD.html?ex=1050638400&amp;en=ea21e8c88feae21c&amp;ei=5 062&amp;partner=GOOGLE (\"http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/11JORD.html?ex=1050638400&amp;en=ea21e8c88feae21c&amp;ei=5 062&amp;partner=GOOGLE\")

Elana
04-11-2003, 11:57 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam Hussein\'s regime is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yes, this is just the beginning....

Those are some sick f@#ks! (\"f@#ks!\")

Elana
04-11-2003, 12:13 PM
If anyone dares to get on this thread to say that this is all bull, and that the press is just making this stuff up, I will personally send Watcher to your house, and he will tell you about his newest mix. Not once....not twice, but for hours. I\'m serious....don\'t try me.

hoodas
04-11-2003, 12:20 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
If anyone dares to get on this thread to say that this is all bull, and that the press is just making this stuff up, I will personally send Watcher to your house, and he will tell you about his newest mix. Not once....not twice, but for hours. I\'m serious....don\'t try me.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Thats is one heck of a threat, I don\'t think anyone will say anything against it now!!

Elana
04-11-2003, 12:30 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Thats is one heck of a threat, I don\'t think anyone will say anything against it now!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Let\'s hope you\'re right. I don\'t want to have to let Watcher loose on any of you people, but I\'ll do it if I have to.

upsidedown
04-11-2003, 12:33 PM
And while he\'s there, he might even call you an \"attention whore\" in between telling you about his mix.

Elana
04-11-2003, 12:41 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
And while he\'s there, he might even call you an \"attention whore\" in between telling you about his mix.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

ROFLMAO /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
USD is correct. That is included in the package. If you really piss me off, I will have Bart join him. He can cuss you out and tell you that you don\'t know what the hell you are talking about, so you should just SHUT THE HELL UP! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2003, 01:16 PM
You really think either Bart or Watcher would do what anyone told them to do?

If that\'s the case then why ...

ok, nevermind...

Elana
04-11-2003, 01:19 PM
Actually Watcher has been following directions. I asked him to post his mix no more than once a day. He seems to have controlled himself a bit. Do you wish to try me?

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2003, 01:54 PM
!! Do I wish to try you? I wish to kick your ass if you keep on being so imperious with me. Your highness. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

It\'s true Watcher\'s been a little better but ...

Ok, he\'s been a little better. That IS progress.

Elana
04-11-2003, 01:58 PM
&lt;&lt;Ok, he\'s been a little better. That IS progress.&gt;&gt;

A LITTLE BETTER? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif He went from 16 posts a day listing his mix to one. You gotta give credit where credit is due. Damn...when was the last time Bart has told us to SHUT THE HELL UP? Even he has been behaving. My boys are growing up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2003, 02:02 PM
You\'re right, they\'ve been better lately. They go in spells, tho. I\'m not sure I\'m quite ready to attribute their recent reasonable behavior completely to your considerable talent...but give me time. If they continue to behave, I might be forced to credit it to your remonstrances.

Elana
04-11-2003, 02:04 PM
SHUT THE HELL UP! YOU don\'t know WHAT you are talking about!!!!!! I fixed them...NOT YOU...it was ME! IF YOU don\'t know what you ARE talking about, then SHUT UP!

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2003, 02:05 PM
rofl

YOU! YOU SHUT UP! YOU TALK LIKE YOU THINK YOU KNOW SOMETHING! YOU DON\'T KNOW ANYTHING. I KNOW THINGS! I DO!

And you would feel so much better if you would only wear

10% APC
10% PF
2% PCC
5% WAGG
6% EW
8% TE
and the rest Evening in Paris colon.

That\'s my killer mix.

You put two dabs behind each ear, three up each nostril, 1 smear across your upper lip, a drop in your cooter hair, and two dribs on the sole of each foot.

Gerund
04-11-2003, 03:46 PM
You left out \"the eye of a newt, and the tongue of a frog.\" lmao

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2003, 04:13 PM
SHHhh! You\'re not supposed to tell the whole spell!