DrSmellThis is an expert.

[bsxs]

I\'ve been reading his posts for a while, he seems like the most educated in smell out of anyone in this forum, and he is the most reliable in my opinion. So newbies, listen to DrSmellThis\'s advice, he knows what hes talking about.

[franki]

I believe DST says : \"Don\'t use DHEA at your age\" or \"Be very careful with it at your age\". Are you gonna listen to him?

Franki /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

[MaxiMog]

Yeah good one Franki!

[bsxs]

I probably should. I tried it for the first time today. A 25mg. I feel a lot more masculine, and a lot hornier and energetic. I\'m not sure. I\'m 17, so I think this is too much. How much is safe for a 17 year old? I take pills that almost ELIMINATE my libido and energy so DHEA seems useful.

[Watcher]

In youre case DHEA would be useful, horny goatweed/tribulus should also help. Drsmellthis is very good i will admit.

[bsxs]

Should I take DHEA with Tribulus and Horny Goat Weed? I have those also. Don\'t you think that would be too much? I mean people say just DHEA 25mg is a lot.

[Watcher]

Well honry goatweed and tribulus will use the DHEA as a source of \"fuel\" in converting it into higher testostrone, remember DHEA is the source and the tribulus etc will increase youre metobolism (good way to lose body fat \'Unwanted\" in obese people) and raise energy levels and sex drive.
Dont see any prblem if worried cut back the DHEA to 20 mgs of less, i take 20 mg of DHEA and the horny goatweed/tribulus and protein powder and actually feel way healthier.

[bsxs]

I do feel a lot healthier right now. I\'m in general, in a better mood.

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks, guys. There are many smart, knowledgeable people here, to be sure.

Bsxs, do you understand exactly why your medicine hurts your libido? It might have nothing to do with DHEA. You might be trying to kill a fly with a machine gun.

You have to do what you think is best, but if the health and sex issue is that big for you, wouldn\'t it be well worth it to get your hormone levels tested??! To do this accurately, you have to get both blood and saliva tests done, as what\'s in your blood serum at some random time provides little information about how much of a hormone is actually functioning in your body over the course of a day. Rocky Mountain Labs in Tenn. is the best place I know to get such testing done, but they might just do it for physicians.

25 mg DHEA could cause problems for you at your age, taken long term.

If you have to take something, something like MACA root is probably safer, or even a small dose of Tribulus. But even then, it might be good to go to a reputable Chinese herbalist, say, and get something designed for you. It\'s usually a good idea to take regular time off from such regimens, too.

[xvs]

One problem with taking DHEA is that much of it will turn to estrogen.

Read this very interesting article for some good information.

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html (\"http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html\")

You can stop this estrogen transformation by taking christin and piperine, among other aromatase inhibitors.

[bsxs]

Zoloft has been known to have that effect.

[bsxs]

Do you think DHEA 25mg is fine as long as it is in moderation?

[Phantom]

I cycle my DHEA and Tribulus, I take them for 3 weeks then I don\'t the fourth week (it give my body time to rest), then do the same thing the next month. The rest of the supplements you have, you can take all month long.

[CptKipling]

I would take less. Watcher, only give advice if you know what you\'re talking about, this is someone\'s health here.

Take it in limitation, maybe 5mg. Take ZMA aswell, it supposidly reduces E conversion (from MIKE, i think...), while also boosting T levels.

[Phantom]

I knows guys who take 100mg - 400mg of DHEA a day and have no ill effects. I think taking 5mg would be like taking nothing at all. And remember Cpt, all those study\'s showing DHEA\'s effectiveness were done with guys using dosages from 200mg - 1000+.

[Phantom]

xvs- it is impossible for DHEA to turn directly into estrogen because 90% of it turns into DHEA-S in the blood, The 10% of left over DHEA probably turns into Testosterone and if there\'s any conversion into estrogen it\'s probably very minimal.

Guys please try to know your stuff before you post, if you post on just assumption your going to look stupid and mislead people.

[CptKipling]

I admit I\'m only going off what people on this forum say, but they are smart guys...

[MadDoctor]

DrSmellThis is a scent guru. I would be asking to be his apprentice if he were soliciting apprentices, and if PMs worked.

Speaking of which, I believe DST said that 15 mg. was the same maximum for DHEA, and I don\'t think he recommended it for anyone under 25. In dosages higher than that, it seems to possibly be linked with long-term health problems, like liver cancer (which is essentially incurable and fatal).

DST, please correct me if I\'m wrong! My memory is good, but not infallible.

-- MD

[Phantom]

It supposedly causes liver cancer in rodents and trout.

( http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/sp-su97/dhea.html (\"http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/sp-su97/dhea.html\") )

\"My laboratory, under the leadership of Dr. Gayle Orner, has demonstrated that DHEA is a potent liver tumor-promoting agent and a complete carcinogen in the trout tumor model. Scientists and clinicians have known for years that feeding high doses of DHEA over periods of a year or more to rodents results in liver cancers. The risk for humans, however, has been assumed to be negligible--the mechanism of carcinogenesis in rodents is thought to be through DHEA functioning as a peroxisome proliferating agent, and humans are known to be relatively insensitive to such agents. However, we have found that DHEA, when fed for only a few months, causes liver cancer in trout at 20-fold lower doses than in the rat. Furthermore, trout, like humans, are insensitive to peroxisome proliferators. We have recently obtained further evidence that the mechanism of DHEA liver carcinogenesis in trout relates to its conversion to androgens and estrogens, a mechanism relevant to humans.\"

-----------------------------------------------------
Another study has found...


\"Extremely high doses of DHEA without antioxidant supplementation (ranging from 2,000 to 20,000 mg daily in human terms) caused liver damage in mice and rats, but DHEA also inhibited tumor proliferation of rat liver cells by blocking the cancer cell promoting enzyme glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PDH). DHEA was thus shown to inhibit cancer cell proliferation. The human equivalent dose of 600 mg a day suppressed breast tumors in mice by 70%, yet even human equivalent doses of 25-120 mg showed striking cancer prevention benefits, with no evidence of toxicity. \"

( http://www.dietsexercise.com/dhea-Text.htm (\"http://www.dietsexercise.com/dhea-Text.htm\") )

[Phantom]

Again, look at the doses their using for their studies \"(Extremely high doses of DHEA without antioxidant supplementation (ranging from 2,000 to 20,000 mg daily in human terms) caused liver damage in mice and rats )\" thats just ridiculous, if you were to taking DHEA at a tenth of that dose you deserve to get live damage because of your incredible stupidity.

[DrSmellThis]

at 15mg/day prostate problems are significantly higher, according to one study I saw. I haven\'t seen side effects reported at < 10mg, but at age 18 you are producing buttloads of DHEA, unless you have an endocrine problem.

[DrSmellThis]

A while back I posted a thread. Do a search on \"DHEA Need to Knows\"; and follow the many links. There are oodles of studies.

[MadDoctor]

Thanks, DST and Phantom. I love having other people document things!

lazily yours,

MadDr

[marv14yag]

Basically, what that means is...

DHEA is good, but like alcohol is good, it\'s hard on the liver if you take a LOT OF IT. However, DHEA is supposedly the BEST anti-oxidant you can get.

You know, I used to think side effects were only PHSYICAL!

Well, they\'re NOT.

And, I have stopped taking DHEA now.

But...

Basically, just like steroids, you build more muscle than your body needs, etc. Not only that, it\'s like caffeine. Although it tells the body to fight disease more, fight cancer, anti-oxidant, etc, build more muscle, more sexual aggression, etc. That is hard on not only teh body, but the mind.

Because you are fighting something more is nelgible.

Like caffeine, that says to keep going, and uses itself as a substrate, etc. Your body keeps going. You HAVE ENERGY, but it\'s hard on the body. And, you end up having less after a while.

Same thing on DHEA. Although aggression increases, etc. Even if you negate side effects...Because DHEA won\'t really turn into estrogen, and you take supplements for your jionts, etc, and all this, it\'s hard on your body.

Side effects that REALLY happen

1. Aggression you don\'t need. This will leave you mad at the everything (basically, aggression comes from the anxst). This is MANY bodybuilders\' problems. Their body is NEVER good enough. The world isn\'t good enough, etc. Aggression, you want BETTER. When does it end though?

2. More increased libido. However, the body CANNOT KEEP UP. After a while I stoped getting as hard erections, etc. It MAKES SENSE! I mean, testosterone is DIRECTLY RELATED to the amount of sperm releaseed. But it DOENS\'T INCREASE how MUCH YOU PRODUCE! To where, you\'re just shooting blanks and etc.

Probably more.

Basically...

DHEA makes body fight disease, build muscle, everything good.

Body can\'t keep up.

Even if you make it to where you don\'t get physical side effects, there ARE the side effects.

Bart

[Phantom]

Thats exactly why you have to use it in cycles, your body needs time to recover and regulate it\'s self. Also that zoloft is like cocaine, yea you get a boost of serotonin for a few weeks but then the good effects start to diminish (lowered anxiety, better mood) then thats when your doctor increases the dosage and then the whole cycle happens again. Until you reach a dosage so high that it\'ll be almost impossible to get off of, those anti-depressants actually cause Withdrawl just like crack/coaine and morphine addicts. I think any of these supplements mentioned here are 1000 times safer than most of the prescription medications destributed these days. Just use DHEA in moderation and you wont have any problems.


( http://www.zoloft-side-effects-lawyer.com/other.htm (\"http://www.zoloft-side-effects-lawyer.com/other.htm\") )
( http://www.prozactruth.com/zoloft.htm (\"http://www.prozactruth.com/zoloft.htm\") )

[xvs]

Phantom,

What are you basing this on?

Low testosterone issues in men often have to do with high estrogen issues as well.

DHEA is a precursor of both testosterone and estrogen. In men who have too much aromatase, the DHEA converts preferentially to estrogen and provides no benefit or even negative effect on testosterone/estrogen balance.

Did you even bother to read the LEF article I posted a link to?

Please back up your statements with citations before merely saying someone\'s wrong.

[Phantom]

\"The reason that testosterone replacement therapy does not work by itself for many men is that exogenously administered testosterone may convert (aromatize) into even more estrogen, thus potentially worsening the hormone imbalance problem in aging males (i.e., too much estrogen and not enough free testosterone) (21, 26). While there are studies showing that testosterone replacement therapy does not increase estrogen beyond normal reference ranges, we will show later how the standard laboratory reference ranges do not adequately address the issue of estrogen overload (4, 8, 9, 17, 22-25, 27, 29-32).\"

Thats using raw testosterone!!!
---------------------------------------

I feel like hitting you with a stick! In that whole article I don\'t find any compeling evidence that your statement (\"One problem with taking DHEA is that much of it will turn to estrogen.\") is false. All they say is that \"Inadequate amounts of DHEA are being produced in the body. (DHEA is a precursor hormone to testosterone and estrogen) (250).\"And that statement has nothing to do with DHEA and it turning into estrogen, all your doing is twisting their words to your own benifit.
---------------------------------------

Look at all the good things they say about DHEA:

In Dr. Jonathan Wright\'s book, Maximize Your Vitality & Potency, a persuasive case is made that testosterone and DHEA actually protect against the development of both benign and malignant prostate disease (305). Dr. Wright also points out that natural therapies such as saw palmetto, nettle, and pygeum provide a considerable degree of protection against the alleged negative effects that higher levels of testosterone might have on the prostate gland.

[xvs]

Do some more reading.

For example:


Biotransformation of oral dehydroepiandrosterone in elderly men: significant increase in circulating estrogens.

Arlt W, Haas J, Callies F, Reincke M, Hubler D, Oettel M, Ernst M, Schulte HM, Allolio B.
Department of Endocrinology, Medical University Hospital Wuerzburg, Germany.

The most abundant human steroids, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester DHEAS, may have a multitude of beneficial effects, but decline with age. DHEA possibly prevents immunosenescence, and as a neuroactive steroid it may influence processes of cognition and memory. Epidemiological studies revealed an inverse correlation between DHEAS levels and the incidence of cardiovascular disease in men, but not in women. To define a suitable dose for DHEA substitution in elderly men we studied pharmacokinetics and biotransformation of orally administered DHEA in 14 healthy male volunteers (mean age, 58.8 +/- 5.1 yr; mean body mass index, 25.5 +/- 1.5 kg/m2) with serum DHEAS concentrations below 4.1 micromol/L (1500 ng/mL). Diurnal blood sampling was performed on 3 occasions in a single dose, randomized, cross-over design (oral administration of placebo, 50 mg DHEA, or 100 mg DHEA). The intake of 50 mg DHEA led to an increase in serum DHEAS to mean levels of young adult men, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced supraphysiological concentrations [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; area under the curve (AUC) 0-12 h (mean +/- SD) for DHEA, 108 +/- 22 vs. 252 +/- 45 vs. 349 +/- 72 nmol/L x h; AUC 0-12 h for DHEAS, 33 +/- 9 vs. 114 +/- 19 vs. 164 +/- 36 micromol/L x h]. Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone remained unchanged after DHEA administration. In contrast, 17beta-estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner to concentrations still within the upper normal range for men [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; AUC 0-12 h for 17beta-estradiol, 510 +/- 198 vs. 635 +/- 156 vs. 700 +/- 209 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001); AUC 0-12 h for estrone, 1443 +/- 269 vs. 2537 +/- 434 vs. 3254 +/- 671 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001)]. In conclusion, 50 mg DHEA seems to be a suitable substitution dose in elderly men, as it leads to serum DHEAS concentrations usually measured in young healthy adults. The DHEA-induced increase in circulating estrogens may contribute to beneficial effects of DHEA in men.

[Phantom]

<font color=blue>I don\'t know what article you were reading because that information certainly was not here ( http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html (\"http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html\") ) 17beta-estradiol and estrone are weak metabolites of estrogen and they should be of no concern because even in that paragraph you posted, it says that the levels were still in their normal range. Also those studies were of people taking 50mg to 100mg doses, if you were to be taking 25mg of DHEA there probably would\'nt be much of a significant change in your estrogen blood serum levels.</font color=blue>

------------------------------------------------------
The most abundant human steroids, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester DHEAS, may have a multitude of beneficial effects, but decline with age. DHEA possibly prevents immunosenescence, and as a neuroactive steroid it may influence processes of cognition and memory. Epidemiological studies revealed an inverse correlation between DHEAS levels and the incidence of cardiovascular disease in men, but not in women. To define a suitable dose for DHEA substitution in elderly men we studied pharmacokinetics and biotransformation of orally administered DHEA in 14 healthy male volunteers (mean age, 58.8 +/- 5.1 yr; mean body mass index, 25.5 +/- 1.5 kg/m2) with serum DHEAS concentrations below 4.1 micromol/L (1500 ng/mL). Diurnal blood sampling was performed on 3 occasions in a single dose, randomized, cross-over design (oral administration of placebo, 50 mg DHEA, or 100 mg DHEA). The intake of 50 mg DHEA led to an increase in serum DHEAS to mean levels of young adult men, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced supraphysiological concentrations [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; area under the curve (AUC) 0-12 h (mean +/- SD) for DHEA, 108 +/- 22 vs. 252 +/- 45 vs. 349 +/- 72 nmol/L x h; AUC 0-12 h for DHEAS, 33 +/- 9 vs. 114 +/- 19 vs. 164 +/- 36 micromol/L x h]. Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone remained unchanged after DHEA administration. In contrast, 17beta-estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner to concentrations still within the upper normal range for men[placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; AUC 0-12 h for 17beta-estradiol, 510 +/- 198 vs. 635 +/- 156 vs. 700 +/- 209 pmol/L x h (P &lt; 0.0001); AUC 0-12 h for estrone, 1443 +/- 269 vs. 2537 +/- 434 vs. 3254 +/- 671 pmol/L x h (P &lt; 0.0001)]. In conclusion, 50 mg DHEA seems to be a suitable substitution dose in elderly men, as it leads to serum DHEAS concentrations usually measured in young healthy adults. The DHEA-induced increase in circulating estrogens may contribute to beneficial effects of DHEA in men.
------------------------------------------------------

[marv14yag]

Yeah, for everything good, something bad. After every orgasm, or increase in serotonin levels follows a decrease, etc.

With the anti-depressants, same thing. And, they have found that cocaine kills the receptors for dopamine and etc (the brain can regrow itself, if it didn\'t, having sex would make you brainless) but, basically. You have a level of whatever, every time you get more, less follows.

You are saying, that you must give your body time to recover.

If this is true than you are advocating not taking DHEA in cycles, but rather every OTHER day, etc. Cycles, would do little as far as recovevery, becasue in that 6-8 week cycle there would be no recovery at all.

What you are advocating is that using DHEA in moderation will have no problems, however...The body will regulate itself.

The only time something will have no side effects is if you are LACKING because the BODY can\'t do it for some reason. Example: if you lose 1 or both of your balls than testosterone replacement is necessary, because the body would up it if it could, but now can\'t.

It\'s like a car. If you change one thing, than you have to change everything. If you put a turbo on the car, you\'re going to have to get bigger exaust to keep the engine from overheating, etc, for example.

I\'ll just give the example of the sterile situation.

DHEA makes body\'s test increase, releasing more sperm. Body HOWEVER (just like the car, the DHEA or testosterone is the TURBO and the engine is the sperm production.) the body cannot replace the extra amount of sperm lost, for example.

That\'s one example.

Goes for basically everything, you put into your body that is a drug, there\'s always the negative effect.

HOWEVER, the body is an adaptive organism. As, if you smoke weed for 3 years, and quit, you will only have withdrawal (mental, not physical) for probably 1 or 2.

That\'s basically the premise of masterbation. It actually RELEASES DHEA, however, the amount it released causes the body to make more, however, if not released the body would not have upped up production, however, this only goes so far, as anything external isn\'t going to help, unless you have some type of problem.

EVERYTHING works good at first.

Personal resutls.

Caffeine, DHEA, etc...Good at first, not after a while, etc.

Yeah, you can keep take DHEA to up the body\'s levels and etc. However, they are going to have to equal out, so, you don\'t cycle, and so, they are always high, that\'s good and all, but the REST of the body can\'t handle it.

Just like the car. You get a small engine and tune if faster, or put in nitrous, not good.

The best natural bodybuilders have larger bone structures. Just like the car, the engine is bigger AND the exauast also.

Tribilus, etc...They all increase it naturally, and without hormones, but it\'s the same thing. Estrogen isn\'t the only proble you have. And, bobybuilders that take estrogen often lose libido, why? You need estrogen. Even though DHEA gives you the right ratio, it\'s not the right ratio compared to the rest of your body.

Same thing for the pheromones I think. However, you can always do quality.

Basically, the body has a certain point of how much weight for your bone structure, and pheromones, etc.

Basically, eat the amount you need to eat, without being extra or more, and get the vitamins you need, and the body has the amount of size it wants, to your bone structure, etc. You just change the percetnage of that to muscle. 7% of ideal to be at constant. Bodbuilders go lower, but they can\'t stay that way, and it\'s not healthy. Remember, you store, DHEA and vitamins in your fat a lot of the time.

And there you go. Being the best you can be. However, vitamins, etc. Calcium from milk, multi-vitamins, the body will increase energy levels, becasue it\'s supposed to, just didn\'t have the right nutrients. A lot of the TIME OBESE PEOPLE, the body stores more food becasue it\'s not getting the right NUTRIENTS! So it takes more food to get the nutrients, but hey end up fat. Doesn\'t matter, as long as you surive is what the body cares about.

Bart

[jvkohl]

Hi xvs,
Are christin and piperine dietary supplements? What do you know about age-related increase in men\'s aromatase levels? A Ph.D. research chemist who attended the Pheromone Conference indicated that he takes some kind of aromatase inhibitor that is prescription only, and that he had a hard time finding a physician to prescribe it.

[Phantom]

Piperine is the active ingredient in the extracts of Piper nigrum L (black pepper, a common household spice). Don\'t know about the christin though.

[xvs]

Hi JVK,

It\'s actually called chrysin (no \"t\"). Here\'s some information. It\'s available online from iherb.com.

-------------

A bioflavonoid called chrysin has shown potential as a natural aromatase-inhibitor. Chrysin can be extracted from various plants. Body builders have used it as a testosterone boosting supplement since by inhibiting the aromatase enzyme, less testosterone is converted into estrogen. The problem with chrysin is that because of its poor absorption into the bloodstream, it has not produced the testosterone enhancing effects users expect. In a study published in Biochemical Pharmacology (1999), the specific mechanisms of chrysin\'s absorption impairment were identified, which infers that the addition of a pepper extract (piperine) could significantly enhance the bioavailability of chrysin (304). Pilot studies have found that when chrysin is combined with piperine, reductions in serum estrogen (estradiol) and increases in total and free testosterone result in 30 days. Aromatase-inhibiting drugs are used to treat women with estrogen-dependant breast cancers. The rationale for this therapy is that estrogen is produced by fat cells via a process known as aromatization. Aging men often have excess aromatase enzyme activity, and the result is that too much of their testosterone is \"aromatized\" into estrogen.

In a study published in the Journal of Steroid Biochemical Molecular Biology (1993), chrysin and 10 other flavonoids were compared to an aromatase-inhibiting drug (aminoglutethimide) (298). The study tested the aromatase-inhibiting effects of these natural flavonoids (such as genistein, rutin, tea catechins, etc.) in human fat cell cultures. Chrysin was the most potent aromatase-inhibitor, and was shown to be similar in potency and effectiveness to the aromatase-inhibiting drug. The scientists conducting the study concluded by stating that the aromatase-inhibiting effects of certain flavonoids may contribute to the cancer preventive effects of plant-based diets (298). Two recent studies have identified specific mechanisms by which chrysin inhibits aromatase in human cells. These studies demonstrate that chrysin is a more potent inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme than phytoestrogens and other flavonoids that are known to have aromatase-inhibiting properties (299, 300). The purpose of these studies was to ascertain which fruits and vegetables should be included in the diet of postmenopausal women to reduce the incidence of breast cancer. Excess levels of mutagenic forms of estrogen have been linked to a greater risk of breast cancer, and scientists are studying dietary means of naturally reducing levels of these dangerous estrogens. Flavonoids such as chrysin are of considerable interest because they suppress excess estrogen via their aromatase-inhibiting properties. While this cancer preventing effect is most important for women, inhibiting aromatase in aging men has tremendous potential for naturally suppressing excess estrogen while boosting low levels of testosterone to a youthful state.

Since chrysin is not a patentable drug, do not expect to see a lot of human research documenting its effects. There are many FDA-approved drugs that inhibit aromatase (such as Arimidex), and there is not much economic interest in finding natural ways of replacing these drugs. While prescription aromatase-inhibiting drugs are relatively free of side effects, aging men who are seeking to gain control over their sex hormone levels sometimes prefer natural sources, rather than trying to convince a physician to prescribe a drug (such as Arimidex) that is not yet approved by the FDA as an anti-aging therapy. (Arimidex is prescribed to estrogen-dependant breast cancer patients to prevent testosterone and other hormones in the body from converting, i.e., aromatasing, into estrogen.)

An advantage to using plant extracts to boost testosterone in lieu of drugs is that the plant extracts have ancillary health benefits. Chrysin, for example, is a potent antioxidant that possesses vitamin-like effects in the body. It has been shown to induce an antiinflammatory effect, possibly through inhibition of the enzymes 5-lipoxygenase and cyclooxygenase inflammation pathways. Aging is being increasingly viewed as a proinflammatory process, and agents that inhibit chronic inflammation may protect against diseases as diverse as atherosclerosis, senility and aortic valve stenosis. Chrysin is one of many flavonoids being studied as a phyto-extract that may prevent some forms of cancer. If chrysin can boost free testosterone in the aging male by inhibiting the aromatase enzyme, this would provide men with a low cost natural supplement that could provide the dual anti-aging benefits of testosterone replacement and aromatase-inhibiting drug therapy. Pilot studies indicate that chrysin increases total and free testosterone levels in the majority of men who take it with piperine.

Chrysin has one other property that could add to its libido-enhancing potential. A major cause of sexual dissatisfaction among men is work-related stress and anxiety. Another problem some men have is \"sexual performance anxiety\" that prevents them from being able to achieve erections when they are expected to. In a study published in Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior (1994), mice were injected with diazepam (Valium), chrysin, or placebo to evaluate the effects these substances had on anxiety and performance levels. Chrysin was shown to produce anti-anxiety effects comparable with diazepam, but without sedation and muscle relaxation (301). In other words, chrysin produced a relaxing effect in the brain, but with no impairment of motor activity. The mechanism of action of chrysin was compared to diazepam, and it was shown that unlike diazepam, chrysin can reduce anxiety without inducing the common side-effects associated with benzodiazepine drugs.

A common problem with benzodiazepine drugs is memory impairment. In a study published in Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior (1997), chrysin displayed potent anti-anxiety effects in rats, but did not interfere with cognitive performance. In this study, diazepam was shown to inhibit neurological function, but chrysin (and other anti-anxiety flavonoids) had no effect on training or test session performance. The scientists conducting this study pointed out that chrysin selectively inhibits anxiety in the brain but, unlike diazepam, does not induce the cognitive impairment (302).

Chrysin may therefore offer libido-enhancing effects in the aging male by:

Increasing free testosterone
Decreasing excess estrogen
Producing a safe anti-anxiety effect.

Chrysin is being sold to body builders by commercial supplement companies that do not know if their product is favorably modulating testosterone and estrogen levels in men. The Life Extension Foundation, on the other hand, has conducted studies to evaluate the effects of chrysin (combined with piperine to facilitate absorption) on aging men.

[marv14yag]

Perhaps this is WHY I was craving black pepper.

This is NO JOKE, but I would PEPPER EVERYTHING to HUMONGOUS excess. It tastes REALLY GOOD!

This is probably due to the minor aromatization.

The body KNOWS what it wants, needs, etc.

I, train, eat, everything what\'s it called, by instinct.

Either way, that is VERY INTERESTING.

But, fries, I\'d get the pepper shaker, and SMOTHER them in pepper, and, at school, I\'d take like 40 pepper packets, especially for the mash potatoes and make them black. It just tasted REALLY GOOD. Body KNOWS what\'s best!

Bart

[Shibby]

Im obcessed with nutrition and bodybuilding. Im reading constantly about and also anabolic items. Go to www.anabolicstore.com (\"http://www.anabolicstore.com\") and order Maxteron. It works AWESOME! Boosts testosterone levels (uses dihydrotestosteron), wont aromatize (convert to estrogen) cuz it is also an estrogen blocker. Its not a steroid, its a precursor, you wont get all huge and ripped but definately stronger, and your muscles get rock hard. ITS A GREAT product. Also try a supplement NO2. It keeps nitric oxide in your body for very long times. it dialates you vascular system so you get HUGE benefits. If you have any doubts, about NO2, go to your local GNC and buy the book \"NO2 the 21-Day Transformation\" its for $1.00, thats rite only one dollar. It increases hair growth, clears skin, improves your manly member (if you catch my drift).

[xvs]

Actually the pepper extract is only useful to increase absorbtion of the chrisin in the intestines. It has no other effect in this application.

[TBiRD]

NO2
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It seems brand new ...


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NOX2 increases your maximum contractile velocity - in all muscle types. Fast-twitch fibers get faster. Slow-twitch fibers start acting more like fast-twitch. The results are immediate and consequential, and include increasing your load capacity, boosting your power output, and quickening your muscle contraction.It all adds up to significant increases in muscle strength and noticeable results in your workouts.

The Inside Scoop:

NOX2 gives bodybuilders and serious athletes the ability to build muscle virtually around the clock.

Nutrition Facts:

Serving Size (Tablets): 3

Servings Per: 60

Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (A-AKG):

Arginine-Ketoisocaporate (A-KIC):

3000mg

Suggested Use:

Take 3 caps twice daily- once in the am on an empty stomach and 1/2 before lunch. To maximize results, remember to drink at least 64 ounces of water while using NOX2.

Warnings:

These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Before beginning any weight loss, training or supplementation program, consult your health care practitioner.Do not use if you are pregnant or nursing or if you are at risk of or are being treated for high blood pressure, liver, thyroid or psychiatric disease, diabetes, pernicious anemia, nervousness, anxiety, depression, seizure disorder, cardiac arrhythmias, metabloic disorders, or difficulty in urination due to prostate enlaregment.Conslut your doctor before taking if you are taking any prescription medications. For adults over 18 only.

[SonnyBlack]

have you guys looked into 7-keto-DHEA???it seems to have alot of the benefits that DHEA does (better memory, fat burning/mobilization) but it does not convert to estrogen. Actually its molecular properties prevent it from converting...you guys that are into dhea should check it out...also..I posted this on a different thread, but I truly believe that Inositol powder(sold at many GNC\'s as well as vitamin shoppes) at 5 grams a day is more beneficial than many antidepressants. It does not cause withdrawal and since it is basically a B vitamin, it all natural and not harmful. I did my thesis for my Abnormal Psych class last year and my proffesor was really intrigued and gave me praise on it...you guys with acute anxiety as well as depression should check it out as well...if you do get some, dont get the pills or caps..get the powder.

[CptKipling]

It doesnt convert into testosterone either though. But if you dont mind that, i guess its a good thing!

[SonnyBlack]

thats true...but for people with high aromatization rates...they will never be able to take dhea as it will convert to estrogen causing more problems (gyno, fat storage). The only way to combat this would be to aqccompany the dhea with some arimidex...but it is pretty expensive from what I hear...

[jvkohl]

Thanks xvs; I\'m sure I will get around to trying the combination. At 51 with active weight training, my primary concern is aromatization with resultant accumulation of fat tissue in the belly. I\'m muscular but look like I\'ve got a beer-belly. From the info you supplied, along with info from a chemist who was at Pherocon #1, I\'m fairly certain that aromatase inhibition will decrease my waist to hip ratio to a more appropriate 1.0

[marv14yag]

More appropriate?

I have a 1.8 something ratio for the hips to the waiste, even without DHEA.

The body loses weight from what it has the most. If you lose weight, it will lose it from where you need it, not otherwise.

Bart

[DrSmellThis]

IMO the largest contribution to beer bellies is intestinal problems and distress, not external bodyfat. Many times a thorough intestinal detox, healing and microbial rebalancing program does the trick. Anyway, I got rid of mine that way.

[bundyburger]

&lt;&lt;I have a 1.8 something ratio for the hips to the waiste, even without DHEA.&gt;&gt;

1.8 ??? /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif How is it measured?

[Tantalus747]

Check out the forum at bodybuilding.com, there\'s a huge thread about people\'s experiences with NO2. While some people seem to really like it, some said it did nothing, while alot more thought it wasn\'t worth the price.

I\'ve not tried it myself, there are alot of products out there with more scientific backing. There\'s too much hype &amp; not enough science behind it at this point, IMO.

[Tantalus747]

If you\'re going to tout a product like Maxteron you should mention that possible side effects include hair loss (quite likely if you\'re genetically predisposed) and prostate problems.

Just because it doesn\'t aromatize doesn\'t mean it won\'t have side effects. But you should already know this if you\'re messing around with hormones. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

You might want to know yourself that there are much more effective products for much less money.

[Tantalus747]

I\'ve not really looked into the research concerning chrysin myself. However, several years ago the bodybuilding world became very excited about chrysin. Feedback from athletes using it for anti-aromatization was overwhelming in saying it was worthless.

But if you try it and think it helps, let us know. I just thought I\'d mention the real world results.

[Watcher]

I would have thought a simple measuring tape would provide it with some maths, anyway i checked out the links and my hip/wasit ratio is guess what 1.09, so im close enough to being perfect in terms of ideal sexual attractiveness ratio, must be all that weight work i do.

[xvs]

They probably didn\'t try it with the piperine, hence its lack of activity.

[DrSmellThis]

There is a product called indolplex that metabolizes estrogen and happens to contain indole, a phermone. When I was reading about it it had more research than Chrysin supporting it. Chrysin had recently fallen into disfavor for lack of real-world supportive studies. Maybe things have changed.

[Shibby]

OK, i wouldnt go with anything besides the first one. I have completed my fourth day of NO2 and am starting to get the pumps. This [bad word] does work, im looking forward to see what is to come the next 10 dayz. but really and truly, dont get the Pinnacle. It may be less expensive, but are u going to spend less on a product that doesnt work, or more on a product that does?

[Shibby]

Ok, I dont know how much you know about NO2, but you MUST eat a lot of CARBS (low to medium glycemic) to experience the greatest benefits. When creatine first came out, people said the same thing \"THIS WONT WORK!\" NOT ENOUGH RESEARCH!... when there are MANY studies that support its claims. Before you put down a product, do some research, the product may not be the problem, U may be.

[Shibby]

\"If you\'re going to tout a product like Maxteron you should mention that possible side effects include hair loss (quite likely if you\'re genetically predisposed) and prostate problems\"

They have to say that. BY LAW. And anything that contains an androgen (anabolic andros) has the potential to do all of the warnings. That doesnt mean that it isnt effective. Also, they are allll reversible.

[TBiRD]

Shibby , can you post more experences with NO2....wich day is it now + how do u feel ? Still just the pumps or do u feel like u have more energy and all that stuff...
Maybe even more explosive lol , though i doubt that could happen in such a short time

[xvs]

If you want more NO in your body, one good way to get it is to take supplements of the amino acid arginine.

It acts as an NO precursor in the body.

Taking NO2 directly would seem to me to be unlikely to have much effect, since it would likely be broken down very quickly and wouldn\'t be able to be manufactured where it\'s needed as the body can do with arginine.

[marv14yag]

They say it has physer 3, that\'s BULL!

Do you KNOW HOW MUCH arganine it would take to ACTUALLY INCREASE nitric oxide adequately!?

lol

It\'s a waste.

If you want to increase nitric oxide in your body have more sex/masterbate more or take viagra.

That\'s basically what viagra does. That\'s WHY YOU GET an erection.

So, if you\'re worried about nitric oxide, start taking Viagra, lol.

Basically, nitric oxide is like putting a bigger tailpipe on a car, let\'s the air out faster. It dialates the blood vessels.

In fact, 50% of people that die from heart attacks were under the age of 30 and had low cholesterol! The common denomonator is that their body wasn\'t able to make enough nitric oxide.

All you have to do is give yourself enough carbs (which, without them, will make your muscles flat) and creatine works, but than it stops working, basically, 5gm of creatine in the muscles it takes out 5gm of something gelse, there\'s a stasis, as long as you\'re eating enough carbs and eat enough meat you should be adequate. And, you can\'t forget about fat either, increases tesotsterone levels.

But, anyway, slow acting or not, it takes a hella lot to make ANY nitric oxide with arginine. If it was slow released than say, for 5 minutes barely any would be released (arginine) and that\'s just plain impossible to increase levels high enough

And, if they ever do inrease, it will be very minimal...

Eat enough, and get the vitamins, and lift, that\'s where you get a damn pump.

The pump achived by NO2 Hemodilator would be marginal, at best compared to sex or masterbation, which is when the body has got nitric oxide all OVER the place. Which, is basically why you get sex spots, your skin turns red sometimes, etc. IT\'s the high blood pressure, the blood vessels are dialated. So, next time you\'re f*** your girlfriend flex your arm, lol, see what I\'m saying.

But basically, there you go, useless. Recomendation: if you want more nitric oxide have sex every day or masterbate. Pretty simple.

Also, eat enough carbs and drink enough water, and get teh vitamins (body doesn\'t produce the actual nitric oxide from nowhere) and, oh yeah, working OUT WILL RELEASE IT!? lol Where did that come from? lol Must have been a NEW concept!

Bart

[xvs]

Here are a few facts:

- Nitric Oxide (NO) is synthesized in the body from arginine. Period.
(Nitric oxide is synthesized from L-arginine by nitric oxide synthase to be exact.)

- NO is readily transformed into nitrite and nitrate which are excreted into the urine. Taking it orally will do absolutely nothing for you.

Your understanding of Viagra is incorrect as well.

How erection works:

1) Sexual excitement causes the parasympathetic nerves in the penis to increase the activity of nitric oxide synthase which transforms l-arginine to nitric oxide (translation: no arginine, no nitric oxide, no erection).

2) The nitric oxide activates an enzyme called soluble guanylate cyclase. This enzyme converts guanosine into guanosine- 3\':5\'-cyclic monophosphate which is called cyclic GMP or cGMP.

3) cGMP relaxes arterial smooth muscle, which allows blood to flow into the penis.

4) cGMP is then broken down by a specific enzyme in the penis called phosphodiesterase type 5 (PD5), eventually ending the erection.

How Viagra works:

Viagra inhibits PD5. Period.
This inhibits the breakdown of cGMP and increases the duration of relaxation of the arterial smooth muscle, which prolongs erection.

This also explains why some people see a blue tint when taking Viagra -- there are phosphodiesterase enzymes in the eye (not PD5 but another one). In some individuals, these enzymes are cross-inhibited and cause the blue tint. Viagra does inhibit the PDs in the eye in all people, but typically by a small amount.

Now shut the hell up! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[DrSmellThis]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif Hot Damn!

[marv14yag]

I have you have enjoyed your reign in supremecy.

It won\'t last!

IF you eat more protein you won\'t BUILD MORE MUSCLE. It\'s only, if you have enough. More won\'t DO ANYTHIGN BUT TURN TO FAT!

Well, same thing with arginine.

The AMOUNTS that is in there, is OUTRAGOUS! If you eat enough protein you eat ENOUGH arginine!

The PROBLEM isn\'t having the ARGININE! But rather SYNTHESIZING IT! Taht is WHYYYY the sex and masterbation to increase nitric oxide would do good. Along with Viagra.

Althogh, I have read tests that say MEGA DOSES SLIGHTLY increase nitric oxide. However, it is only temporary, Ie mere seconds. And even if the physer 3 IS LONG LASTING it won\'t be ENOUGH to RAISE IT. An explanation of it would be mrerely, the sudden rush of protein to the body makes you synthesize muscle more quickly. But it will go back down. Arginine you can use as a supplement, however like most protein is all you need. Either froom food, or supplemented.

As far as N02 working, that is prepostorous as I JUST DEMONSTRATED.

Also, your comments on viagra change NOTHING, during sex/masterbation, and taking viagra, NITRIC OXIDE INCREASES! POINT F***** BLANK!

And, the FACT THAT THEY INCREASE would DISPROVE THE FACT! That you need more argnine. They would not INCREASE if you didn\'t HAVE THE ARGININE. However, they OBVIOUSLY DO! Because you already have enough.

The only effect you will be getting is a placebo effect!

Bart

[xvs]

Yo, go to college, get a degree in biochemistry, and come back and make some sense.

You ain\'t doin\' it now.

And that\'s my final comment on this one!

[marv14yag]

You waive around a degree like a teacher\'s pet waves around a hall pass!

Dude, it\'s common sense, ok.

More argining won\'t increase nitric oxide.

It\'s rather, you need enough arginine.

If the problem for most people wasn\'t getting enough, they wouldn\'t be able to increase nitric oxide production during working out, etc.

So, basicaly, taking more arginine will do nothing.

Common sense. What will a degree do? Nothing.

All that is is learning stuff, writing it, and passing a test, or a number of tests.

Learning and testing what you learned.

It WON\'T GIVE YOU more common sense.

lol

Or the ability to think of something.

Rote is what it is. 1 + 1 = 2

That is learned, rote, there\'s no thinking involved.

If everything is set in stone Albert Einstein\'s Theories would never have made it into the mainstream culture.

Many people who went to \"college\" back when, still though the Earth was flat. It isn\'t....That\'s what they are taught.

That\'s all that is.

So you can take those degrees and shove them up your a**.

Bart

[xvs]

OK, I guess that wasn\'t my final comment.

The point of a degree, as you say, is that it requires you to do some reading.

You haven\'t done your reading, yet you post long-winded incorrect stuff and act as if everyone else is stupid or misinformed. That makes you look pretty silly.

Why not do some research first?

In fact, do some research and then refrain from acting as if everyone is stupid anyway.

Bluster is the hallmark of someone who is compensating for insecurity. It doesn\'t look good on anyone.

By the way, had you bothered to look, there\'s a lot of research showing that arginine supplementation increases nitric oxide. Here\'s one to get you started:

=======

Effect of long-term oral L-arginine on the nitric oxide synthase pathway in the urine from patients with interstitial cystitis.

Wheeler MA, Smith SD, Saito N, Foster HE Jr, Weiss RM.

Department of Surgery, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut, USA.

PURPOSE: We attempted to determine whether oral L-arginine, the substrate for nitric oxide synthase, increases nitric oxide synthase activity and cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP) levels in the urine from interstitial cystitis patients. Nitric oxide and cGMP are decreased in urine from interstitial cystitis patients and both induce smooth muscle relaxation and immunological responses. Increasing urinary nitric oxide and cGMP may ameliorate interstitial cystitis symptoms. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Eight patients with interstitial cystitis were given L-arginine (1,500 mg. a day) orally for 6 months. Before and during treatment nitric oxide synthase activity and inducible nitric oxide synthase protein, cGMP, nitrate plus nitrite and interleukin 8 (IL-8) levels were measured in urine. RESULTS: After 2 weeks to 1 month of oral L-arginine treatment, urinary levels of nitric oxide synthase related enzymes and products increased significantly, while levels of the cytokine IL-8 were not changed significantly. IL-8 was significantly elevated in interstitial cystitis patients with leukocyte esterase positive urine. CONCLUSIONS: Long-term oral administration of L-arginine increases nitric oxide related enzymes and metabolites in the urine of patients with interstitial cystitis, which is associated with a decrease in interstitial cystitis related symptoms.

[Watcher]

Which on the surface looks like very good advice. I just hope i never suffer from it.

[CptKipling]

xvs,

Well said.

[Phantom]

Does L-arginine increase penile erection staying power like viagra does /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif?

[Cloud9]

L-Arginine helps your staying power. The best alternative to Viagra is Yohimbe. I have had great personal experience with this herb. It is an alternative to Viagra for prescribing to patients by doctors, if the patient has heart problems then the best alternative would be Yohimbe for impotence problems. I recommend getting a Yohimbe product that has 800-1000mg of the compund. Ultimate Nutrition makes an 800mg tablet that works well(www.bodybuilding.com), and \"Aadvanced Yohimbe Plus\" by Erwin Naturals is good for experimenting with dosage(www.iherb.com) Negative side-effects to Yohimbe are an increased body temperature and heart rate.(burns fat though)...Yohimbe increases hormones that sustain erections,increase blood flow to the genitals, increases nerve sensitivity with out causing you to go quickly. It increases nerve sensitivity by increasing adrenaline to the nerve site. Take a tablet/capsule 800-1000mg at one time 1-2hours before sexual activity. Just make sure you don\'t take it right before you go to bed, because it can cause lucid dreams/hullcinations. This shouldn\'t be a problem though since you will be taking it 1-2hours before activity and probably want go to bed until a minimum of 4hours after you have taken it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif <font color=\"brown\"> </font>

[marv14yag]

Post deleted by Bruce

[xvs]

I give up.

I *could* go to medline and find about 50 references that show that l-arginine supplements clearly do increase NO in the body in all kinds of people, diseased and not, but at this point I\'m tired of it.

BTW, it\'s \"common sense\" that if l-arginine supplements increase NO in patients with an inflammation of their bladders that they\'d work on other people, and this is in fact the case, but hey, have it your way. Be ignorant. It\'s your right. I just wish there was a kill list on here so I wouldn\'t have to read your waste-of-time messages any more!

[marv14yag]

Ok.

My point, anyway, was that, like protein eating more won\'t do anything unless you need it. (Actually I HAVE READ studies that show that a LOT of protein increases portein syntheis.

However, 1,500. That\'s a LOOOOTT of Arginine. Also, how long would the Nitric Oxide spike last? HOW MUCH. And, is it significant COMPARED to what you get by working out?

I mean, do a set of pushups, v.s. take 1,500 milligrams of this. I mean, if it were constant that woudl be different.

However, if physer 3 works, than that\'s like 100 mg an hour, that\'s not very much of a spike AT ALL!

I\'m just saying, results would be mediocre and very much placebo. And it\'s a HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY! You can get steroids cheaper than you can the N02...With like 5 times the results. And, unless steriods are taken to excess they are perfectly safe. Same with Growth Hormone.

However, like I said before, side effects are more than physical (read DHEA thread) but anyway...

Bart

[Mtnjim]

XVS,
Take it easy on the kid. When I was 17, I knew everything to.
He\'ll grow out of it.
(and it\'ll scare the poop out of him to realize how much he doesn\'t know) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif