DHEA-S Need to Knows

[DrSmellThis]

I\'m too lazy to write an article tonight, so here are some semi-loose thoughts I\'ve been meaning to post for a long time. I apologize in advance for any minor scientific inaccuracies. I\'m too tired or not proud enough to edit it, and it\'s too basic and important to delay posting any longer.

DHEA, as we know, is the most plentiful steroid hormone in our bodies, and is produced by the adrenals.

DHEA-S is the most plentiful androgen in human sweat -- not A1, not -none, not -nol.

most of DHEA is NOT converted to -rone in men. Most stays as DHEA, in the form of DHEA-S

DHEA-S is where DHEA is stored until it\'s needed. Tissues that need it easily convert it back to DHEA. Much DHEA-S ends up being excreted through ourr pores.

If it stays as DHEA-S, it won\'t be converted to testosterone or estrogen -- hence, few problems with hair loss or breast development in men.

Perhaps 90% of DHEA in our bodies is in the form of DHEA-S.

DHEA in our blood easily converts to DHEA-S in the presence of biologically active sulphur, mostly through the liver.

MSM is an extremely bioavailable form of sulphur, available in supplement form. Sulphur is extremely plentiful in the human body, but is easily destroyed in food through processing. I believe most of us could benefit from supplementing with it. It is so safe you can take it by the heaping spoonfuls without adverse effects. It is almost food-like. It plays a part in the synthesis of virtually everything in our bodies.

I believe DHEA-S is definitely a pheromone, whether or not it acts like -nol or -rone, or takes the same path through our systems. I think it is the equivalent of a musk base for humans. It smells very erotic.

DHEA-S, per se, is only available by prescription. I think it doesn\'t matter.

I very strongly suspect that we can let our bodies make more DHEA-S by taking MSM with DHEA. I take 3 grams for every 10mg of DHEA. Works for me. I feel better too.

When I take DHEA and MSM I get more hits, with fewer T or E side effects. I\'m pretty sensitive to this sort of thing.

I think too few of us take advantage of this opportunity.

Cutler/Athena was right abot DHEA-S being a pheromone. It is the mother of all -mones.

The skin easily converts DHEA to -none, -rone, and other pheromones.

However it is a waste to apply it topically, when it gets to your skin anyway, and when you can eat it at a fraction of the cost, obtain other health benefits, and get a phero effect in about an hour.

Negative DHEA side effects start showing up at about 15mg (prostate). I keep it to 5-10mg/day.

Here\'s a good scientific link!

http://www.naples.net/~nfn03605/?pid=2756&cob=home (\"http://www.naples.net/~nfn03605/?pid=2756&cob=home\")

[bivonic]

Good Stuff Doc!

A few Q\'s.

-------
When I take DHEA and MSM I get more hits, with fewer T or E side effects. I\'m pretty sensitive to this sort of thing.
-------

what are the T or E side effects you mention?

Do you take pill or sublingual?

I have some sublingual spray that outputs 12.5 mg\'s I only take it sparingly once every few days, does that make sense? Or would you recommend a 10mg pill daily. I don\'t know too much about MSM but I\'ll check out your link.

TIA!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Is this true for women too, or is this advice for the guys only? Here\'s a link I found on MSM: www.dazer.com/msm.jspI\'m (\"http://www.dazer.com/msm.jspI\'m\") going out in a minute and was stopping by the health food store anyway. Think I\'ll pick some up.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

BUMP

[marv14yag]

This stresses something I thought to be true, however, I never stressed it....The DHEA being stored somehow.

Because, when I take it, but don\'t work out, it doesn\'t seem to do ANYTHING (smell OR tesosterone surge) (I even sometimes randomly get adrenaline and tesoterone surges, sersiously, last like up to 5-10 seconds).

However, whenever I work out, or anything that world require teststerone it\'s MUCH more amount of it, and when I sweat it is VERY potent.

(Oh, on the side, I\'m taking like 2,000mg of vitamin C to keep from overtraining, vitamin C is used to help to maintain epinephrine and nor-epinephrine...I suppose if you are taking DHEA it will help to support them at the higher levels, probably explaining the teststerone surges).

But uh, that\'s not bad, I mean, when you think about it...You only use it when needed....If you are trying to get a girl (I don\'t knwo about others, but I get testerone raises) It\'s been shown that looking at porn and things raise a men and women\'s testosterone levels...

So, whenever you need the testosterone it\'s \"burned up\" as I would say, really I suppose would mean that it is used up before it can mess with anything... And, not only that, but only using testosterone when you need it would help you to focus. It\'s very hard to focus with all the teststerone.

In fact, from tests I have read on DHEA it seems that black men and women have higher levels of DHEA when at the age of learning, which is about 6 years old, until 6. They are also the ones with less IQ...Which would correlate why tesosterone interferes with learning and why also women are on average smarter than guys (however, guys get more grants, jobs, etc because higher testosterone levels are present (this is from stuff having nothing to do with pheromones, they just correlate it with tesosteorne).

The same thing the DHEA does is what happens when you work out.

In fact, they have shown that many bodybuilders (not on steriods) and powerlifts have testosterone levels MUCH MUCH lowever than those of normal people. How is this possible if they are all big and they can lift all the weigh they do. This is because very little is released UNTIl they lift it all, it\'s a natural adaption to save up until you need it...(Which goes into the hippocampus deal, I\'ll get into that in a second).

Now, it\'s also been found that that a person un-fit (aeroblcally) after a session of running will release LESS endorphins, tesosteorne, other hormones, etc, WHILE running, however, AFTERWARDS there\'s more hormones going on AFTER than there was before. So, in a graph it would APPEAR as though there\'s a short spike during the activity and an even LARGER spike that peaks and comes down about 15 minutes afterwards. Which, endorphins being released more afterwards would appear as though the body is trying to keep from feeling pain from the activity.

Now, the fit person (aerobically) after running (I believe this was down with like a 20 minute run, etc.) will follow a different pattern, going from instead of releases most of their endorphins in the middle of the physical activty. So it would look more like a perfect triangle.

Now, as for the hippocampus, which MAY go into the tesosterone theory of less, but more when used is that, when intense exercise is done by individuals, the hippocampus part of the brain, that controls learning and processing of information is DOUBLED! Yes, DOUBLED!, lol, this is completely scientific stuff right here.

So, to cap it all off, the less testosterone you release WITHOUT phsyical activity the less side effects you have with testosterone to estrogen conversions, and with women it would be the opposite. You would have less testosterone to keep you from learning (which, MAY GO ALONGW WITH WHY THE HIPPOCAMPUS DOUBLES IN SIZE!!!! Which, by the way, is for all age group, this particular study was not done with only older people which, would probably nee dthe physical activity to help sustain themselves, keep them healthy.

Not only that, but think about it, you are focused, etc, however, whenever you need it (depending on where you live, New York, L.A. etc,) to fight...But, also in stressful situations more hormones released are better, however, if everything is going good, the opposite is true, ie, being able to handle yourself better under pression and control yourself in stable situations.

In addition, another thing I\'ve always thought but had no scienfic theory to back it up came from plain EXPERIENCE. However, from what I understand, DHEA is not readily released, but rather stored. I beliefve the body can only store so much. I believe that after this limit is reached, you will mearly piss the rest away. However, a lot of the time, your PEAK is never reached, no matter WHAT age, in fact, a fellow in adolescence, I beleive would have an even greater peak to fill with the DHEA, which is why I take it despite my age of 17.

The obove would GO ALONG with the tests done that show that, even in high doses DHEA is never directly aromatized.

I think that\'s about it.

Along with MSM, Glucosamine and Chondroitin are also a part of that for cartilidge and collagen. Glucosamine will do something like creatine to increase cartilidge. Chondroitin will help to protect the existing cartilidge.

I do not believe MSM directly does anything RATHER it gives you what they body NEEDS. Now, this has never been a problem for me, because I eat a lot of eggs, etc. I believe that foods that are meant for babies have everything you need. An example, is eggs, milk, etc.

Do you know why they say that eggs are the best thing for a dog\'s coat, shine, skin, etc?

Eggs contain a lot of MSM, due to not being processed, and as I said before, the stuff in eggs are the nutrients needed to devolop a healthy chick (or, girl eating eggs... nice healthy chics...Damn, I like chics..) Anyway...

What do you think that stuff is that keep the yoke together? Ah, and, not to metion there MUST be a lot of MSM if it\'s going to keep the egg together in the inside instead of just being a big GLOOP.

I eat 2 eggs ever morning and I have at least 3 glases of milk a day.

Point in case, I BELIEVE, that\'s all you really need to know about it.....Oh, and what that means too is taking more DHEA won\'t do a d*mn thing which WOULD go along with my own personal experience of 25 mg doing nothing different than 200 mg and up.

Other than that, I think the only way you can keep healthy is to get enough calcium (which not only PREVENTS but also REVERSES cancer). There was a study done in 13 different places with people living over 120. The common denominator was that ALL of them where MUCH above sea level, except, for one, the Okinawa Japans...The other common denomiantor was that they all get over 200 times more calcium than the normal person, the Okinawans get it from the Coral Reefs, which is said that that calcium is almost 100% absorbable, compared to other forms (ie, milk is like 6% and Tums is like 2%.) And, the ones in the mountains, etc, woudl get their calcium from the mikly water of the glaciers.

Also, your DNA cannot work unless smothered in calcium.

Calcium is used in more functions in the body than ANY other mineral.

Calcium could also go along with the reason why (aside from the fact that caffeine acts as an enzyme in the PLACE of AMP energy (closely associtated to ATP) caffiene releases calcium from the body to be used. The way that your MUSCLES contract is that they use calcium inbetween the microfibrils of the muscle fibers to contract, the contraction puts leverage on the bone, just like a sea saw. (This is why some people, also can lift more even though they do not have as much muscle, becasue the muscle is placed closer to the joing, being able to be used better for leverage ( A test can be to raise your forearm to 90 degree as flexing the biceps, in the space between the start of the biceps and the inside crease of your arm, if you can fit 3 in there, you don\'t have very much potential for strength as others, 2 is normal, and 3 is VERY VERY good.) ) I myself, can fit 3 fingers inbetween easily, hoever, I ALWAYS make up for anythign genetic with pushing harder, whether it be mentally, phyiscally, etc. (People have said that my eyes look liek they are bleeding, pop out some when I bench, and my whole body turns red, not just the face, the wohle d*mn thing.)

Now, back to the topic of the caffiene, the point in case is that, the caffiene acting as an enzyme would help delay fatigue which, is proven by other studies, however, also, the release in Calcium can also be used to state why you can lift more and would also help with the ability to keep going even though you don\'t feel tired.

There are 2 examples for that; the frist one is where, you are not feeling any lactic acid build up whatsoever, however, you are very tired and you do not have the energy to go on (the caffiene acting to fill in as an enzyme would give you this energy (aside from it\'s thermogenic and stumulating drug properties), now, the second example, is where you have a lot of energy, however, it burns really really bad, and is hard to go on. This is where a release of calcium would help, it will still burn, however, you will still be ABLE to keep pushing.

That all is just proving the effectiveness of callcium right there. And, to prove the second example with the burning but able to keep doing. We do burnouts where you do the bar, just once, put 5# on each side, do it 2 times, another 5 on each side (at that point you take of the 5 on each side and put a 10# weight on each side) and do that 3 times, and so on. I do not train for endurance, it still burns, etc. And, I am not the strongest. However, me being able to realease more hormones, and having a lot of calcium to do, at that PARTICULAR time, I was drinking over 3 glasses of milk a day and also supplementing with a HELLA LOT of calcium supplements also. I did more reps than anyone else, no matter who had the endurance and stregth, Yeah, it hurt, probabliy more than EVERYONE else BECCCCAUSE I didnt\' ahve the endurcance and strenght, but I was able to keep going even though there was the pain, where others could not...

I think I wrapped it all up right there...D*mn, I want to see how long this looks in the forum, lol...

Bart

[marv14yag]

Yes FulltiltRedhead, MSM is used as the connective material in hair, nails, skin, joints, making you look more healthy, giving you better skin tone, and keeping your much more flexible. MSM is appliable as much for women as that of for men.

Bart

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, Bart, what about the DHEA, though? I bought both.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Bump
Is this advice good for the women, too, DrST?

[xvs]

MSM is not necessarily safe. It has been shown (through MRI) to accumulate in the brain.

DHEA is definitely not safe in large doses. 10-25mg/day really is about the most one should take, except for specific medical conditions. Very aged people could take up to about 50mg.

BTW, I\'ve experimented with DHEA-S (I was able to get it because I\'m a researcher) and have not noticed any effects.

[marv14yag]

You REALLY think you\'re all that don\'t you, like you KNOW abou it huh!

I didn\'t post all that just so you could REPEAT all that, lol....

Duh, I already said that anything over 25 mg won\'t do anything more. In fact, the YOUNGEr you are, the MORE you would take if anything...How much you already have is neglible; the potential to store isn\'t...

You want to know WHY it isn\'t safe dip sh**! Because, it\'s not...Some stupid a** publishes a d*** study to say it\'s not safe because that\'s what people will listne to...It\'s sfe...lol, it\'s not going to aromatize.

You\'re like one of those d** personal trainers that think you are all that because that\'s your job...You do it to get paid!

That\'s the SAME reason why the news always shows people getting killed....It\'s what people want to hear (yes, people WANT to hear people getting killed) (Oh, and, if you don\'j bleieve me, just say so, I can argue a WHOLLLEEE debate about that...but, the fact remains.)

Just in like 1980 or whatever, half of the DRM Calcium was said, and anything after it the FDA or whoever it was said it was \"toxic\"! I\'m SICK of people saying, oh, no this is bad, and this, and so on! lol

Accumulate in the brain? That doens\'t MATTER! Unless it affects anything. For all we know the accumulation of it in the brain would help it function better. I mean, look at the purpose of it..I\'m suje it\'s used in brain cells.

That\'s like someone with ostearthritis eating it, and when it accumulates in the joints people say, it\'s accumulated in the joints, it\'s not good for you!

I\'m SURE they are goign to find taking creatine is stored in the barin, because, yeah, creatine IS in the brain, and the heart! That\'s like the notion that steiords make a bodybuilder\'s heart bigger and give you high blood pressure!

Duh!!! STeroids make the body produce more red blood cells, and more whatever that thing that picks up oxygen is too! Last time I checked that\'s GOOD!

Unless you have some kind of heart problem, lol.

Thats what Vitamin E does too!

That\'sa what people want to hear, that\'s what sells. That\'s what people believe. People are moved by emotions, guilt, fear, etc. So, when youy are told, such and such is bad for you, lol, you BELIEVE IT!

You do what you want...I\'ll belive someone with more common sense than to say everything is going to hurt you...

I respect Dr. whatever his name because he has good stuff to say....You are tought by some d** professor something, or it\'s part of your job description, it was TOLD to you, and you just take it for what you have said...I have no respsect WHATSOEVER toward that...lol

Next thing they\'ll probably say is that SEX is bad for you! HAH!

Bart

[DrSmellThis]

T/E refers to testosterone/estrogen conversion. Side effects are noted above.

I take pills to maximize the liver\'s role, but I think sublingual at 5mg or less is good for breath and other effects, such as testosterone conversion.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I guess the question of whether DHEA is good for women to take to enhance their pheromone output is something I can just research on my own.

[DrSmellThis]

I see no reason why not. Women metabolize DHEA differently (producing different proportions of metabolites).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have MSM at 500mg each capsule and DHEA at 50 mg per capsule ... how much of each? Take with food or on an empty stomach or does it matter?

[DrSmellThis]

well, seein as how the brain has tons of collagen, and seein as how MSM helps synthesize collagen, we want MSM to go to the brain. Next to hydrogen, oxygen and maybe carbon, sulphur is the most plentiful element in our bodies, I think. We\'d need to know more about accumulation in the brain, how long it stays, effects if any, and the conditions for it, for starters, before we could draw any meaningful conclusion about any dangers.

MSM toxicity is ridiculously high, from what I\'ve been taught by my nutritionist -- it\'s measured in % of body weight.

[DrSmellThis]

I talked about daily dosages in my first post.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I saw. 3 GRAMS of MSM to 5-10 mg of DHEA. Just double checking. I couldn\'t find any capsules at 5 mgs or 10. Is the proportion critical, do you think?

[DrSmellThis]

http://www.puritan.com/scriptsp/start.exe/puritan/mainnew.html (\"http://www.puritan.com/scriptsp/start.exe/puritan/mainnew.html\")

-- for 5 and 10mg tabs.

Just an educated guess...wanted enough MSM to minimize undesirable conversions, to keep a maximum as DHEA-S in my system.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

thanks

[DrSmellThis]

XVS -- You experimented with topical DHEA-S. Even Cutler states that takes weeks to be effective that way. DHEA, naturally in your body, doing it\'s thing, and being excreted in sweat is probably different. I\'m not saying I know why I think DHEA-S works as a practical pheromone. To be sure, it is being converted to other things that actualize the overall effect.

[DrSmellThis]

bivionic, I didn\' fully answer you...

I prefer taking 5mg at a time, after the biggest meal and upon arising; and sometimes an hour before a date.. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[DrSmellThis]

marv14yag, I do appreciate your enthusiasm, energy, and interest. I value your knowledge, too, and want you to be able to be a member of the forum for a long time.

But please don\'t verbally abuse others in my thread. It might be helpful for you to realize they are just trying to help out the best they can. It\'s boring when everyone agrees. I appreciate XVS sharing that helpful information.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'m excited about the MSM for hair, nails, joints. The guy at the health food store enthusiastically recommended it, said he takes it, and even uses a soap with it and sees a difference from it. The soap wasn\'t sold at that store so it wasn\'t like he was endorsing a product for his own gain. This guy was quite a specimin - beautiful skin, hair, clear, bright eyes, pretty teeth. I want to guinea pig this on myself to see if maybe it would help my mom get some energy back and not have so much joint pain.

[DrSmellThis]

The actor James Coburn swore by it for his arthritis.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh, god, I hope it works. I have a friend at work who\'s using a cane now, her arthritis is so bad, and my mother is plagued, even in her fingers. Thanks for the tip, I\'m definitely pursuing this.

[DrSmellThis]

have her combine large doses of MSM with glucosamine/chondroitin(available cheaply from puritan), (and avoid potatoes if she is type O.). That is a much more synergistic approach. Jello, as it is made of collagen, is good to eat. She should also be getting enough minerals (chelated only), which is tough without heavy supplementation (just look at the RDA\'s). It is also very good to do a cleanse.

There is a designer collagen supplement called NutraVitta (search is easy) I swear by. I think you\'d like it, in combination with pycnogenol and copper-peptide lotion (skinbiology.com), for enhancing youthfulness. Powerful combo for elimenating wrinkles and sagging skin. (Not that you have either; I just know you\'re \'over 30.\')

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks for that, I\'ll be sure to tell my friend. Her hip joints are so bad she can\'t get her legs open far enough to have sex! I\'d slit my throat. It\'s been like that for months now and only seems to get worse, even with physical therapy. But her doctor hasn\'t suggested anything else for her to do, so she\'s resigned herself to it.


I just got my CP serum and emu oil today from skin bio. Will certainly try the NutraVitta. Thanks.

[DrSmellThis]

And pycnogenol! Very important!
do a search on Masquelier\'s GrapeGold -- best and most economical.
Vit-C Ester would be icing.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Will do, thanks again, you\'re very kind.

[MaxiMog]

Acute dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) effects on sexual arousal in postmenopausal women.

Hackbert L, Heiman JR.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, University of Washington, Seattle, USA.
BACKGROUND: The age-related decline of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) has prompted research on its experimental replacement in women. Although no relationship to sexual functioning in healthy women has been shown to date, DHEA replacement has potential for affecting sexual response. METHODS: To investigate DHEA effects, 16 sexually functional postmenopausal women participated in a randomized, double-blind, crossover protocol in which oral administration of DHEA (300 mg) or placebo occurred 60 minutes before the presentation of an erotic video segment. Blood DHEA sulfate (DHEAS) changes, subjective and physiological sexual responses, as well as affective responses were measured in response to videotaped neutral and erotic video segments. RESULTS: The concentration of DHEAS increased 2-5-fold following DHEA administration in all 16 women. Subjective ratings across DHEA and placebo conditions showed significantly greater mental (p < 0.016) and physical (p < 0.036) sexual arousal to the erotic video with DHEA vs. placebo. Positive affect also increased during the erotic video across drug conditions. Vaginal pulse amplitude (VPA) and vaginal blood volume (VBV) demonstrated a significant increase (p < 0.001) between neutral and erotic film segments within both conditions (DHEA and placebo) but did not differentiate drug conditions. CONCLUSION: In sum, increases in mental and physical sexual arousal ratings significantly increased in response to an acute dose of DHEA in postmenopausal women.

[DrSmellThis]

Good use of bold print, Max.

The effect did not show up for premenopausal women who had normal hormone levels.

[xvs]

hm. It\'s quite possible to have sex with the woman\'s legs closed, especially if she\'s on her stomach. On her back is also possible with the legs closed, and can be stimulating in an interesting way to the woman.

[xvs]

Title: DHEA: the last elixir.
Source: Prescrire Int, 11(60): 118-23 2002

Abstract: (1) DHEA, or dehydroepiandrosterone, is an adrenal steroid. Its physiological role is unclear, but it is known to be an intermediate in sex hormone synthesis. DHEA replacement therapy is not currently indicated in adrenal insufficiency. (2) Plasma DHEA levels are so low in most animal species that they are difficult to measure, hindering studies of the impact of DHEA on ageing. Most animal studies are based on administration of pharmacological doses. (3) Clinical data have been obtained in a very large number of observational studies, in which plasma concentrations of DHEA were measured in various situations. The only established fact is that circulating concentrations show wide interpersonal variability and a tendency to fall with age. Low DHEA levels have not so far been linked to any specific health disorders. (4) Clinical trials of DHEA have focused on cognitive function, well-being, libido, immunostimulation, etc. There is no proof that DHEA is beneficial in these areas. (5) The side effects of DHEA are linked to its androgenic effects (acne, hirsutism), its unfavourable effects on lipid metabolism (a cardiovascular risk factor), and a possible growth-stimulating effect on hormone-dependent malignancies (prostate, breast). (6) In practice, there is currently no scientific reason to prescribe DHEA for any purpose whatsoever.

[DrSmellThis]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=121632 30&dopt=Abstract (\"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=121632 30&dopt=Abstract\")

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120642 15&dopt=Abstract (\"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120642 15&dopt=Abstract\")

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120394 47&dopt=Abstract (\"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=120394 47&dopt=Abstract\")

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=123763 36&dopt=Abstract (\"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=123763 36&dopt=Abstract\")

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=116802 05&dopt=Abstract (\"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=116802 05&dopt=Abstract\")

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks for the abstracts and the links.

[DrSmellThis]

XVS, every scientist worth his or her salt knows we never prove anything with scientific research.

Still the above studies (see posted links) from reputable medical journals, published during the past year or two, are cause for optimism and further experimentation, at least.

I think the language in that article you posted is a bit extreme, then, and suggests a certain preexisting bias -- not that we all don\'t have one.

[xvs]

And caution.

From the abstract I posted:

\"unfavourable effects on lipid metabolism (a cardiovascular risk factor), and a possible growth-stimulating effect on hormone-dependent malignancies (prostate, breast)\"

[DrSmellThis]

I would absolutely not want anyone with suspected breast or prostate cancer to take the stuff. Thank you.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That kind of leaves out both the women I was most hoping to benefit. Shoot. Back to the drawing board.

Do we know what the effects on lipids are?

[Lucky]

Red,
The MSN works, tell your friend with the hip joint problem to try it. Sulphur does wonderful things for the body and has been used throughout history. Isn\'t Blackwidow woman a native American Indian? She may have some folk advice for us about sulphur.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks for that. I\'ll take it for a couple of weeks so I can say I\'ve done it before I tell my good friend and my mom. Somehow intuitively that just makes really good sense to me. I\'ve been thinking about it for awhile, trying to figure out what foods would provide it other than eggs, which we\'ve been \"educated\" out of eating. Great to know you can take it in a capsule!

[DrSmellThis]

Breitenbush Hot springs, on OR, is an ancient Native American sacred healing springs. The most prominent mineral in the water is sulphur. It\'s close to where Bruce lives, BTW. That would be a good place to pop DHEA and hang with naked people... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[marv14yag]

Well, I do not take MSM, however, as I have said above I get a lot of MSM from foods and I do take collagen/cartilidge producing glucosamine and chondroitin...

Anyway, I have noticed that, before, like, my face, was just regular, and now it\'s like after you wash it looking, but even without washing...And, before, when I\'d cut my nails it would just CLIP off, but now when I clip them they are really soft and I have to rip them to get them off....Which, SHOULD be a good thing...Along with the joint confort.

That is the whole reason why I started taking them is because I do some martial arts, and I have a lot of knee hip, elboe, etc pains (especially when everyone is like, let me see this..Do that, blah blah blah...)

I don\'t know about the DHEA though, I was taking that LONG before, however, I suppose it MAY multiply the effects of the other things...

From my knowlege though, as for women taking it...Mostly I take it because of the raise in testosterone, however, I know it metabolizes differently in women, however, I do know in both MEN AND WOMEN it will increases libido.

XVS says it won\'t... Well, it\'s a BIT hard to test that...I say you just give it a try yourself and see if you see a differnce (ie, craving sex like 10 freaking times more, etc.)

Bart

[marv14yag]

Or you could take a gulp of that nasty egg water from the wells....It\'s got a BUNCH of Sulphur and also minerals...

Bart

[**DONOTDELETE**]

On pycogenol

U.S. Patent No. 4,698,360, Inventor Jack Masquelier

Dosage he recommends is 1.5 - 3.0 mg per kilogram of body weight

www.integratedhealth.com/infoabstract/pycdes.html (\"http://www.integratedhealth.com/infoabstract/pycdes.html\") gives a technical article showing the chemical structure of pycogenol and explaining how it works as an extremely effective free radical scavenger and collagen builder in the body.

It is an extract of pine bark, with effects akin to grape seed and red wine, but more potent.

[DrSmellThis]

It also can be derived from grape seed.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I spoke to my friend with the hip thing. She\'s already taking glucosamine/chondritin and her formula has MSM mixed in. She says before she started taking it, she could only get up three stairs and had a hard time getting back down again. Now she can climb the stairs in her house. She said it\'s the only thing keeping her walking.


Pretty amazing.

[xvs]

If you\'re looking for anti-oxidants, I would recommend:

- alpha lipoic acid - in particular the sustained release kind which is manufactured by Jarrow and others.
- when taken in combination with acetyl-l-carnitine, it was shown to restore mitochondrial function of aged rats to middle-aged levels, and apparently works to clear out blockages of some mitochondrial enzymes which produce energy in the body.
- alpha lipoic acid is also one of the only anti-oxidants which can penetrate mitochondrial membranes

This combination definitely gives anyone over 30 or so more energy if used consistently for a few months. What I take is 300mg of sustained release alpha lipoic acid and 1000mg of acetyl-l-carnitine per day.

Pycogenol apparently is a patented extract and process, and therefore is more expensive than other products such as grape seed extract, which actually contains higher levels of antioxidants. Also, I\'d rather eat a grape seed than a pine tree!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, but does it make your skin pretty? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[MAL224610]

Hi, I have a few things to contribute regarding DHEA/and its sulfate ester, as well as clear up.

DHEA and DHEA-S or interconvertible in the blood. The Major differences between the two are that DHEA has a half-life of around 15-30 min and DHEA-S has a half life of around 7-10 hours. They are both active precursors, as for effects on pheromones, it might be due to the fact that androsterone is a metabolite of DHEA.

The most potent Pheromone precursor is going to be through DHT(dihydrotestosterone), and its metabolite/precursors(interconvertible) 3alpha-diol, 3beta-diol. I have seen some medical studies showing 3beta-diol presence in skin(but nothing showing pheromone testing). DHT is, compared to T, a more potent Androgen(virilizing/masculinizing compound).

Being a bodybuilder and having used OTC Andros/DHT precursors, and others I have noticed more attraction on said days. When you increase androgens chances are you that you increase present Alpha Male Pheromones.

In regards to testosterone effect on learning? That is a bogus review of this hormone, just like the assumption that Testosterone hurts the heart(newer studies show that administration of T decreases LpA(a known marker for heart disease)). There are so many biochemicals involved with learning that assigning hormones to dysfunction is not a good way to look at it. I do believe Hormones play a role in behavior, but in what way no one can say Behavioral Endocrinology is cutting edge science at this time.

. However, I will say that usage of DHT precursors intranasal have resulted in increased CNS levels of androgens. The result is Stimulating, and many experience better focus.

With the usage of androgens it is not easy to say where or how much a precursor will effect said receptor(prostate, muscle, cns, etc.). It will depend how resistant to the androgens a person is, now with age there may be an increase in receptor sensitivity due to decrease of circulating steroid(called upregulation).

As for side effects, T converts to Estrogen throughout the day in rate limited process involving the enzyme aromatase(which is also produced via fat cells).

Now as for bodybuilders having lower testosterone, that is not true. I have had mine tested, I never use anything without working with my doctor. My T levels are normal, and when I introduce androgens they are higher than normal(steroids work because they maintain longer halflives, and longer levels during recovery result in building muscle) As for exercise increasing testosterone this is true and untrue. As a matter of fact strenuous exercise can deplete T levels. It doesn\'t just appear.

Testosterone production is based upon circadian rythym(short short translation).
At night T levels are at their lowest, allowing for Gonadotrophins(T production stimulant), LH being the gonadotrophin, to rise up. So that in the AM T levels are at their peak. Then through metabolism(aromatase, 5a-reductase(androgen reducing enzyme to DHT), and other enzymes) T levels drop to begin the process again. So you see, what happens after exercise is that because of the drop in T, due to the exercise itself, T levels will be higher AFTER the workout for recovery.

Now back to DHEA-S. DHEA-Sulfate is produced from DHEA under influence of Adrenocorticotrophic-Hormone(ACTH). ACTH also stimulates production of catecholamines(Norepineprhine/Epinephrine(true name for Nor/Adrenaline).
As well as Cortisol.

MSM is good to add in because it is a sulfur donor compound for support of joints. Remember in human life sulfur is a readily available element.


With Sideffects assoc\'d with estrogen and Testosterone again its a case where each individual will be different(some more sensitive than others). Most of the truley risky side effects occur from Supraphysiological levels(super human), and alot of cutting edge research is showing good gains with less hormones for athletes.

Remember when taking anything that effects hormones you should be checking liver enzymes, and allowing your doctor to advise in usage.

I really hope what I could add helps on general steroid biochemistry.

Mike

[Watcher]

All i worry about is if it makes me feel good and more energetic.

[bjf]

I am so confused....

is there something i should be taking to help improve the phermones i put on my body. Maybe you are saying that some of this stuff just increases your body\'s own permones, which doesn\'t seem necessary if you have love scent products, correct??

[Watcher]

DHEA increases natural production and allows u to break down the skin based applied synthetics more efficently as well.

[bjf]

is the DHEA is Fish Oil capsules fine for this??

[DrSmellThis]

All those triple formulas are skimpy on the MSM. She shoulkd take it separately.

[Watcher]

You can buy this stuff fairly cheap on its own, just try any natural foods store or health food store.

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks for the idea, XVS. I take both products, but I\'ll remember to do it together!

The active OPC\'s in pycnogenol or the Masqueliers product are not concentrated enough in grape seed to get the effect. To get the effect you\'d spend much more. The antioxidant power of OPC\'s is one of the highest existing, far more than the whole seed.

Having said that, if you want a holistic effect, Puritans sells an all grape product that has skin and seed. Combine all three substances for a powerful punch. Grape skin has great things in it too!! (That\'s why red wine has health benefits)

Pine bark is the source of great medicine, just as aspirin comes from white willow bark (or can). The pine OPC\'s work for ADD, and help with MS and other brain conditions, as they cross the blood-brain barrier.. Pine essential oil is also great for mental acuity (interesting to note the visual similarity between pine bark and the myelin sheath)

[Watcher]

So u can buy pine bark by itself from any naturalpath Drsmellthis, i might grab it for my TS condition.

[DrSmellThis]

Pardon, what is TS? I like the Masquelier\'s blend product, which contains both the grape and pine OPC\'s. They also sell a pure pine one, but it\'s more $. I\'ve never bought plain pine bark. Ask your naturopath.

[MAL224610]

There is currently a bill in congress proposed to ban precursors and metabolites of steroid. Even if proved safe, and pregnenolone through DHT metabolites are in peril, go to www.usfa.biz (\"http://www.usfa.biz\")(this is the site for info on the bill, and how to fight it)

If you want repost this in a new thread so all can support.

Mike

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks for the additional information, MAL224610!

[marv14yag]

Lower than that of most people....Also, you are not doing powerlifting....I should have said POWERLIFTERS...Nevetheless, it is TRUE, they have lower teosterone, perhaps not so much for bodybuilders as they do little that releases testosterone, HOWEVER chances are your skinny friend over there (point to chicken legs beside you) will have higher testosterone than you.

This also would explain why my brother thinks he\'s so BIG AND BAD around me, even though I kick his ass when he thinks he can whoop me...

lIfting weights releases tesosterone....Testostesrone must be built back up...

Powerlifting releases the most.

That\'s not tha BAD THING...

It works in the same principal as masterbation and how it keeps you strong (it does, literally)

A release of testosterone, means it has to be built back up....Which, it does.

However, chicken legs over here never has to build anything back up, their body never produces more...It just stays at a level, and so does their muscles.

But, yeah, it\'s true, less testosterone.

That\'s PROBABLY also why, if you do not lift weights, and ere to take steroids it would REALLY f** you up, I have heard about EXTREME water gains, just a bunch of stuff...

I think that powerlifters/bodybuilders should LIFT, get their test mesured, it will be lower, and than MAXIMIZE it by putting it back to HIGH-NORMAL with androgens, testosterone replacement so that it will be maximized.

This is basically what I do by taking DHEA, no EXTRA will be there, however, because I lift the body has the extra test it needed stored in the form of DHEA-S.

Normal, however, if you stopped lifting I guarantee you it\'d go up into high-normal.

Bart

[Watcher]

Thanks for the extra info marv14yag

[MAL224610]

Yes Powerlifters can have Lower test levels, but its not what you think. Powerlifters tend to carry more fat, remember fat is a source of aromatase(the enzyme that converts the test to estro).

As for Masterbation the entire community is still out on this one, studies go both ways or stay normal.

Its not true about not exercising and roids, as a matter of fact there are tons of men in their 30\'s and up using Test to boost low levels to mid-normal.

You have to look at what hormones you are using.
Straight Testosterone or any aromatizable steroid can convert to Estrogen(Estrogen being the source of things like water weight, and gyno). DHT(which many Bodybuilders use to treat both gyno, and to lean out)(is androgenic, and slightly anabolic, blocks estrogen at its receptor, and is associated with male pattern baldness and prostate sensitive), then you have a slew of others that stimulate natural test, block estrogen, block aromatase, burn fat. Its a science, you can read 1000 page books solely on Steroid Biochemistry. Its quite the fascinating subject, and holds the future of psychiatry in its hands.

Now DHEA has other uses, and I am currently trying to get the articles published(journal of endocrinology, etc.)

I take the stance, if you want to reach a goal. You can take steps, but do the research first.

The only thing about DHEA-S is that it appears so be a set level never going higher. So that in any 7-10 hour period its cycles never exceed its peaks or troughs(indicating sensitive feedback loops involved elsewheres in the body).

Just in case, Fish Oil contains DHA(not DHEA)

Marv you hit the nail on the head as to why bodybuilder/powerlifters do use. The fact that these steroids maintain levels for days on end means mucho muscle can be built

Mike

[Wolfe]

smallest doseage i\'ve found locally is 25mg, if i cut them in 1/2 and get bout 12.5 i should be ok at my age(on the prostate part) shouldnt i?

i also supplement with
MSM=500mg
Glucosamine=500mg
Saw Palmetto=950mg
thats besides my multi-vit/diet supp(untra vita man from vit world)

[marv14yag]

First of all, not all powerlifters are heavyweights...

Second, I believe that the REASON the studies would ever go negative on masterbation is JUST because what I said...Releases testosterone, however, an hour after you will have less, they see that, and see it as bad. However it is not, because you will build back up tesosteorne, like when you don\'t cut your hair in a while, and it doesn\'t grow fast, but when you first cut it, it grows really fast.

Ditto with the powerlfiting. In fact, that\'s why squats can make your WHOLE BODY BIGGER! Not just the legs, becasue they release testosterone, which, first of all, a sudden burst of testosterone signals muscles protein synthesis, even though it DOES drop afterwards.

Anyway, it\'s a fact, you lift, etc....Teosterone is released and levels are lower a awhile after...That\'s pretty much a fact.

My point was....All the bodybuilders using mega high doses...I believe you should just get them checked and if they aren\'t high normal (because of WHATEVER...Be it lifting masterbatoin, whatever...) take the testosterone enthanates, whatever gets the job done to raise it back up.

Perhaps the reason why xlv\'s, or whatever his name is is norrmal is because a. He doesn\'t lift heavy, ie, focusing on smaller movements with single muscles, as most bodybuilders tend to do, rather than squats, bench, etc almost exclusively...Or, perhaps he has been able to produce the testosterone back fast enough. OR PERHAPS if he had not lifted at all they would not be just normal but high normal.

My point was...I think you should take, and I take DHEA to maximize them...I mean, AS YOU SAID, the DHEA-S can never go past a point...Which is good. You take the DHEA, so that when they DO GO LOWER ie, lifting, stress, cortizol, etc...They will go back up faster, making you stronger/bigger, etc.

Just what you said about that DHEA-S can never go past a point would negate xlv\'s negative ideas on them, ie, side effects.

If you can\'t overdose, how can there be side effects? OTHER that would have NORMALLY be present....Remember, some people get gyno etc, in their teens, etc automaticaly....It\'s genetics.

That\'s JUST LIKE the you will go bald with steroids...Maybe, but only if you were already going to go bald beforehand. It\'s the hairs that are DHT resistant that do not fall out, ie, on the sides and the back of the head.

Anyway...I think I said it all..

Anyway, about the glucosamine and the chondroitin...That\'s some good stuff.

I get very little pain now, wwhich before would be so bad that I couldn\'t lift. ESPECIALLY with cleans! That and any behind the back, or heavy squats, etc...Now, pain free baby! Not just that, but I\'m supposing building stronger joints will allow to give me the ability to handle more weight.

Bart

[MAL224610]

If you can deal with the measuring scoop given, or can get a scale sensitive into the mg. Then you can try www.beyond-a-century.com (\"http://www.beyond-a-century.com\") they have DHEA Powder. What you should keep in mind if you have a prostate probelm and are taking things like proscar, or natural supplements. These supress androgen production, which can result in gyno(gyno can result from either too much estrogen, increased estrogen sensitivity, or decreased androgen to estrogen ratio). So these are things to also keep in mind when using DHEA.

I am in the process of trying to get published on an article for DHEA and an unknown intresting side effect(not related to pheromones to let you know now). If you guys want, I will see what I can do about getting a copy posted on the forums.

Mike

[MAL224610]

Marv, the below is regarding general molecular pharmacology/endocrinology.

Exercise does not directly cause the release of testosterone, now hold up before you jump on this. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying that the way you are saying it is mis-conveying the process.

Testosterone is produce by the Leydig cells under the influence(and only under the influence) of Luteinizng Hormone((LH) or Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin(binds to the same receptor and is chorionic horomone found in the urine of pregnant women). By activating the leydig cells you cause cholesterol to cross the membrane and the process of producing steroids.
Now this might be where you are confused, and where I am failing to convey what I am saying.

There are several Feedback loops, and inhibitors of testosterone production. All working in a homeostasis controlling production of hormones. One of these feedback loops is Estrogen, estrogen signals the Hypothalamus-pituitary that \"TOO MUCH\" estrogen is circulating stop releasing LH. Now for the little known part(if you are not in steroid biochemistry you wouldn\'t know this.) Testosterone itself blocks the production of testosterone, so as levels go up it also blocks the crossing of cholesterol transmembrane thereby acting as a shield(inhibiting production). Then there are other feedback loops, which is where I do the bulk of my research, involving other systems of the body.

So what does all this mean?

Bottom line in order for Natural Test to go up something has to go down, and yes you can drop Estrogen and get closer to your physical set point(but not to cause an increase from motion). You can lower the response of the other feedback loops, but still you have one last MECHANICAL mechanism standing in the way. Testosterone itself.

So the only way to get a boost from exercise is from something to go down. That is Test itself, now there is a group of neurochemicals/hormones that DO go up during workout. Catecholamines(Noradrenalin, Adrenalin, and possibly dopamine/serotonin respectively.) As well as Endorphins. The reason I remain adamant about refering to this process in this order is that it really clears up misconceptions that many lifters get in the gym.

Exercising results in Testosterone increase following strenuous exercise.

Now as for DHEA taking more is not correct even if I SAID that DHEA-S DOES NOT exceed a physiological set point. Something has to happen to the DHEA. Remember its still a cholesterol metabolite, and T precursor. It can also be converted to Androstenedione. Like Andro if its not being used for T production it aromatizes to Estrone(form of estrogen). So yes you can still overdose, nothing in the human body is cut and dry. Also, Just like Androgen Metabolism at the Test level, DHEA has feedback loops too(involving ACTH). Its a beautiful machine, with intracacies as vast as space. New fields are discovered daily, as well as new ways to look at old science.

I agree I think most men should utilize DHEA. In smaller doses if not needed. There is a completely other reason that I discovered while researching enzymatic pathways, and I am working on getting it published.


No for masterbation....remember I said multiple studies showed effects in both directions, negative, and positive. As well as no effect at all. This generally means that it is unrelated, but cannot be proven either way at this time.

The me will not go bald, the ME is not DHT senstive.

You are 100% right, you should get bloodwork done. All men should in there 20\'s especially. There is a male menopause, and it occurs over a vast amout of time, as compared to women.(in some case studies I have seen, maladies have caused early andropause in men too).

Mike

[CptKipling]

Thank you for that Mike, a very usefull post.

[xvs]

yes, please post.

would love to see your research results!

[DrSmellThis]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=125089 05&dopt=Abstract (\"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=125089 05&dopt=Abstract\")

[Mtnjim]

I\'ve been taking DHEA for the past couple of months (over 50).
I just noticed two things over the past week. First what used to be OK applications of ~none for me have become OD\'s, I\'ve had to cut way back. Secondly, I\'ve had a moustache for several years that has beem white. Last December, I started a ghoatee and it came out white. A couple of days ago, I noticed that there were a lot of dark hairs growing in replacing the white ones. DHEA? or is the clock running backward?

[Wolfe]

Bel has told me he is experiancing same thing, beard turning darker
he\'s been on 25 mg and said he noticed a change after a month(bout)

[Mtnjim]

Looks like 25mg is about right. Just gotta\' watch the lowering OD levels.

[BassMan]

I\'m also cycling DHEA, and my beard and eyebrows (the only hair on my head) are turning darker after being close to snow white for several years.

[Mtnjim]

It was only on my face that turned white, head, pits, and other places only had 1 or 2 gray hairs. Now the face seems to be darkening to match.

[DrSmellThis]

If you spell DHEA sideways you get HEAD. Nice.

[CptKipling]

I don\'t get it

[DrSmellThis]

That sucks.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Just like a guy. Always looking to get a head.

[Lucky]

Great post.

Would an increased basal metabolic rate created by eating small meals throughout the day cause a continuous lowering of the levels of testosterone?

[Mtnjim]

I wouldn\'t mind getting behind ;~}

[**DONOTDELETE**]

/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

[marv14yag]

No, in fact, it would be just the opposite, tesosterone levels would INCREASE. Big meals = bad. Bodybuilders eat anywhere from 6-8 meals a day.

Bart

[CptKipling]

Doc you crack me up

[MAL224610]

You pose a really good question, one that has yet to be tested. How do small frequent meals interact with serum (total/free) testosterone, LH , FSH, and DHEA-S.

I can pose theories on this, but no one will be able to give you a solid answer at this time.

Eating more frequently, in small amounts is beneficial in more ways than one. First you have an increased absorption rate for milk and wheat proteins(including whey). How does this benefit you? Well essentially the higher rate of protein absorption means there are more building blocks for; muscle, Biogenic Amines(Serotonin, Dopamine, Catecholamines(norepi,epi), etc.), thyroid hormone. Second, you allow for maintanance of metabolic rate througout the day. Maintaining metabolism is the name of the game in everything you do, because when you want to make a change(be it weight loss, or building muscle) it will be much easier if you are running a more efficient ship. Third, and most important, reduction of circulating insulin levels.

The Third aspect in increased meal frequency is where there might be a real interaction with testosterone levels. When metformin was administered in a study these were the results:
Decreased Total Testosterone, Decreased Free Testosterone, Increased Sex Hormone Binding Globulin ( free test being the active form, and SHBG reduces free test), Increased DHEA-Sulfate. Metformin is an insulin medication. Essentially excess insulin reduces serum androgens. So one could assume that from this study that by improving the amount of insulin being released can improve serum androgens. Since all pheromones are 5alpha 16-androstenes(5alpha is a part of Dihydrotestosterone metabolism). You Lower the Precursor Testosterone, you decrease your mean pheromones, and if estrogen levels go up you could suffer from mild estrogen related side effects.

Again this is all theoretical, and there is no study to prove either way. However, This is what I think.

Mike

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Does the third aspect have anything to do with one effect of diabetes can be impotence?

[MAL224610]

It does make sense that this could be the cause, but remember that diabetes effects more than just insulin Levels, you have increased infections. Which are treated by antibiotics, which can also lower serum androgens as well.

Chemical causes of erects are as vast as the number of women on the earth. For one we know that prostaglandins play a role, and an injection can cause a major erection. (Pripasim requiring surgical let down, and is soooo painful.)...Estrogen plays a role, as does DHT. Phosphodiesterase-5 inhibition(viagra) increases the effects of NO(relaxation of smooth tissue allowing for increased inflow of blood into corpus cavernosum). I did alot of research back about 5 years ago on ways of increasing NO both neural and endothelial via natural solutions. It worked quite well for increasing the amount of wood for the fire so to speak. These are just a few ways to stimulate an erection, I am quite sure there are many more. There is also penile vascular health(damage a willy vein, and the south will not rise again.)

Mike

[marv14yag]

You can also do PC (pycocogeus) flexes in order to increase the width and bloodflow down there. You will also be able to hold out longer. Impress your special lady with that?

lol

Bart

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The parenthetical in your last sentence cracked me up.

What I don\'t get whenever the guys start talking about ways to increase testosterone is why the progesterone in your body doesn\'t just even it all out.

[MAL224610]

Yeah PC works, When I was doing testing I never focused on the sexual effects. Although many test subjects did regard an increase in frequency(what I was speaking of in my post), they also did regard an appeared increase in size...Unfortunately the purpose of my study was to increase Nitric oxide naturally as a means of High BP treatment, and Lowering of tachycardia(rapid heart beat). So, there was no, um, intrest in checking the claims.

Mike

[MAL224610]

Primarily because we don\'t produce as much progesterone as a woman does. Progesterone serum levels in men gen < 6nmol/L while in females < 10nmol/L in the follicular phase, and > 30nmol/L in luteal phase. Progesterone does impart effect on HPTA(hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis(other wise known as the switch controlling hormone function)) can lower LH/Testosterone production.

Also Testosterone is a very potent hormone, when it is active it dominates, when its metabolite DHT is present it even goes so far as to block the effects of estrogen. Now in a normal un modified male progesterone does effect Test levels. However in males supplementing androgens/anabolics, the Test maintains a half life of days compared to hours(so it maintains primary effects due to increased androgen/estrogen ratio). As it wears on it can aromatize to estrogen, or 5alpha reduce to DHT. Anabolics do increase progesterone, which shows it does have a role in HPTA. But since the androgen is supplemented and not being physically produced, the effects may not be felt till the point that it has returned to normal.


I have heard some funny statements, and questions. Best is \"I heard steroids shrink your willy, is that true?\" I responded \"no, actually the opposite, androgens can make it grow if your genetics permit\" Her response \"Prove it\"

[DrSmellThis]

Folks, not to be a party pooper, but Bruce will probably move this thread if we don\'t start talking about pheromones, which was the original point to the DHEA post.

Can you guys maybe start a new thread in the health section, so we can keep the information about pheromones in the pheromone section, and not tempt Bruce to yank it out? (Ooops...that didn\'t sound right./ubbthreads/images/icons/blush.gif)

[oscar]

Doc,

How about this? Based primarily on the nose, I\'ve speculated that DHEA or a derivative thereof figures prominently in the makeup of WAGG.

Oscar /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Lucky]

Thanks, Mike.
Sure appreciate your theories. Please keep us posted on this topic when it is researched.

[DrSmellThis]

That\'s very interesting, Big O. It would be nice to test DHEA by itself and report reactions.

What makes sense to me in theory is that DHEA-S on the skin might \"humanize\" the other -mones by providing a larger, natural context containing potentially multitudinous chemicals; and environment for -none, -nol, etc., like an animal musk. A real musk, after all, might contain 100 pherochemicals, if you include chemicals that at least act pheromonic in combination.

So I suppose there could be a connection between \"natural\" (referring to a -mone being in context -- in the presence of other chemicals it is typically found with.) and \"GG-ness\", in that natural might seem more trustworthy.

[DrSmellThis]

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/feb99-hormonesupp.html (\"http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/feb99-hormonesupp.html\")

[DrSmellThis]

http://www.drugstore.com/qxp43795_333181_sespider/philosophy/falling_in_love_pheromone_for_her.htm (\"http://www.drugstore.com/qxp43795_333181_sespider/philosophy/falling_in_love_pheromone_for_her.htm\")

[DrSmellThis]

http://www.thepugliesegroup.com/consumer/information/info_pheromones.html (\"http://www.thepugliesegroup.com/consumer/information/info_pheromones.html\")

[xvs]

I\'ve tested both DHEA and DHEA-S and haven\'t obtained any noticeable reactions at all.

DHEA is very easy to test -- just dissolve some in alcohol.

DHEA-S is not as easy to test, because it has to be obtained from a chemical supply house and must be kept refrigerated at all times or it breaks down.

This is why I doubt DHEA-S is in any commercial pheromone product, even though there\'s some evidence (which I did not find to be the case in my own limited tests) that continued topical application of it could increase one\'s own phero output where applied.

DHEA\'s lack of effectiveness is why I doubt DHEA is in any commercial pheromone product that actually works.

[CptKipling]

\"Ingredients:
Alcohol Denat, DHEA\"

That just seems a little silly somehow. Not for men?

[DrSmellThis]

I do feel the reactions from ingesting it have been noticeable.(although I also have to take 3 saw palmetto caps to keep DHT out of my hair follicles, it seems).

That\'s different from wearing it. Nevertheless, the 7-keto variety is in all the skin-biology products. Maybe that\'s what\'s in Cutler\'s stuff. Maybe there is a way to add things to DHEA-S to keep it stable at normal temperatures -- I doubt it\'s that difficult to do.

There\'s no reason for cynicism about it at all, although I understand you tried it unsuccessfully. I do admire your spirit of adventure. How long did you try it for? Did you notice any smell at all?

The biggest difference in skin chemical composition between those at the studly age (18-25) and those that aren\'t is DHEA-S levels. We know that skin bacteria (and possibly other processes) can and does convert DHEA-S on the skin to all the major pheromones. We know that ingesting it makes you smell more animalic/musky. We know that several researchers believe DHEA-S is a pheromone. We know that some studies support the Athena product for men (though we may distrust the research), and that many swear by the product when used over time. We know there are other DHEA phero products on the market.

All this, along with my own positive experiences, keeps me curious and hopeful. How else can things move forward?

[MadMaxx]

Dr. Smell,

Could you please clarify what is below?

\"Negative DHEA side effects start showing up at about 15mg (prostate). I keep it to 5-10mg/day. \"

What is the effect on the prostrate. I just started using some DHEA and it is a 25 mg daily dose. I am not sure, but I think it has reduced my libido. Is that possible? I thought it would increase it. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[MadMaxx]

In response to getting this thread back to pheromones, I noticed two things within one week of starting to take DHEA. First, though I kept up with the same phero combination at the same application rate, I seemed to gain even more respect, with people like getting out of my way with no questions asked. The nice thing though, is that it isn\'t the same as with a regular OD on -none. It is a much more positive situation. The second interesting thing, was that one day I walked into a classroom and my students said that I definitely must have changed my cologne/perfume. They seem quite sensitive to whatever I wear. Anyway, I had changed NOTHING; same phero combination at the same rate as for several weeks. Nothing was different except for the DHEA that I was putting in my system. This was before I had read this thread, but I suspected that it might be the DHEA, because I had already noticed the extra respect I was getting.

[SonnyBlack]

so does taking DHEA increase more RONE output on men??Ive also mentioned on several posts that when I feel my testosterone levels being high (like on leg day at the gym) that I seem to get waaaaaay more attention from girls than when I just wear none by itself...what pheromone do we (males) send out when our test levels are high??Rone???

[DrSmellThis]

MaddMax, At 32 you probably don\'t need DHEA, and I would ly off for about a month and take tesicular/adrenal support, like Maca/pumpkin seed/raw glandular/ashwaganda/gonseng/tribulus/horny goat, etc. You may have induced a negative feedback loop (even though DHEA isn\'t too bad tis way) that tells your body to stop releasing it when needed. The constant supply might have discouraged your body\'s natural spikes, say, when it encounters a pretty woman. The constant saturation may also have fatigued your tissues against reacting too it.

Then, after the month, I\'d go to 5mg. When I was your age, 10mg was still an OD for me, and would give me a headache. Only now can I do 10mg.. I only take one 5mg tab at a time, and at least one after a meal so it absorbs slowly into my system.

At a 15mg a day dose, at least one study has suggested an increased risk of prostate problems.

[DrSmellThis]

JVK talks a lot about DHEA >> -rone happening. However, keep in mind that with sufficient dietary sulphur, healthy adrenals/liver, 90% of ingested DHEA should be being converted to DHEA-S, which tends to stay that way, as DHEA-S, until you sweat it or pee it out; unless your body needs extra test/estro, stc. for something. Then your skin enzymes, bacteria, and acids will convert it to whatever, including -none, -rone, and -nol. Most all of the pheromones can be synthesized from DHEA-S, including all the 16-androstenes, and a ton of them we don\'t know about! So think about it! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif Maybe 5% of ingested DHEA gets directly converted to -rone. Still that\'s significant. So you probably do notice a -rone effect.

[marv14yag]

These are the SAME EXACT reactions I have been, and gotten.

I also take 25 mg.

I think it takes a while, probably 2-3 weeks, just like glucosamine, to work...

I think in those few weeks it\'s storing it up in yoru body, just like creatine. It doesn\'t get released until you have filled up your potential.

Nevertheless. I will be after weightlifting in school, and I will spray on some axe. However, I won\'t spray very much on really ( on the underarms and accross the chest). (The underarms is probably another reason because that is where pheromones are, and axe doesn\'t kill pheromones like anti-perspirant does to block the body from sweating.

Anyway, I just got out of the locker room and right when I walked out there was a group or 3 girls. And one of them made a comment on my cologne. I was just like, oh, it\'s the axe stuff.

I don\'t think it\'s like the commercial, however, anything that doesn\'t kill mones, or keep them from coming out is going to help the mones.

And, the people getting out of the way before. Yes, it is different. With nones it\'s people being afraid. However, with rone, it\'s as if they do it out of cuertousy, while still giving respect.

I like that a lot better. You get what you want without upsetting others.

One other thing I have noticed though too...Is just people in a better mood. Especially when I\'m on caffeine.

Aside from caffiene\'s well-being effect....DHEA is stored in the body fat. One of the MANY amazing things caffeine does is it saves the muscle glycogen by burning fat. DHEA is stored in the fat. DHEA is than released when on caffeine.

But, it is one thing I have noticed though. People seem to just be in a better mood. Not necessarily laughing and such, but, better mood.

Perhaps it is in my imagination, however I am glad to see others get the same reactions.

You know, I think a lot of people are getting reactions, however, they just don\'t know how to see the subtle differences in others.

Bart

[marv14yag]

Perhpas the body has not adjusted to it? I find the natural spikes are higher before stimulus. Girls, before you lift something, etc. MUCH MUCH HIGHER. However, it may only be because of his not taking very long, the body has enough already, and so you don\'t get the spikes...Until the body perhaps has stored it in the body, as a form of DHEA-S? And before the body has adapted, and/or built up a tolerance?

Bart

[MadMaxx]

Dr. Smell,

Thanks for the comments. I actually just picked the DHEA up on a whim while on a trip to the U.S. I knew nothing about recommended dosage, but 25 mg was the only thing they had in the store. I guess one thing that got me interested in the DHEA was someting I read that showed that by my age even, we could have T-levels of only 20% of what they were in our early 20\'s. I found it believeable, when I considered the degree to which my sex drive fell off at about age 28, accompanied by a lack of stamina( meaning, changing for being able to shag a women 3-4 times from night till morning, to once at most).
I haven\'t experienced a single headache even at 25 mg daily. That is coming from a guy who is actually fairly susceptible to headaches.

[MadMaxx]

Marv,

Nice to hear about some similar reactions.
I consider myself fairly good at picking up on subtle differences in people\'s behavior. I am fairly sure that things changed shortly after I started taking the DHEA. Not that things were overly terrible before that, because of my regular phero combination. Nonetheless, I think I am going to greatly reduce the amount I am taking. I am certainly not going to continue with 25 mg a day. Until I get a hold of something with lower dosage I will just take 25 mg every couple of days or something like that.

[DrSmellThis]

The main short term problem is hair loss. I minimize the dose for that reason. I do think DHEA helps with younger women, as it presents you as a younger man. I had really good luck with a sweet, Jewish, large-boobed 22 y.o. last week on 10mg. plus CS-WKM. She started off being coy, but was literally begging me to be inside her two days later. We had two nights of passion, then I got the all-too-common \"Oh God what have I done\" reaction. Easy come, easy go.

[MadMaxx]

Actually, hair loss is a major concern for me. Any advice on how to counter that. In the past I attempted to use Saw Palmetto; I think it was a few hundred mg per day; but I am fairly sure that it was responsible for completely destroying my libido to the point of impotency. Any thoughts on that? Lot\'s of stuff I read says that unlike pharmaceutical products, it isn\'t suppossed to have that effect. Well, it certainly does that to me. Is it a matter of dosage once again? Was I taking too much?

[DrSmellThis]

Here, MaddMaxx

www.hairsite.com/topical/t-alpha.htm (\"http://www.hairsite.com/topical/t-alpha.htm\")

www.skinbiology.com (\"http://www.skinbiology.com\")

It wouldn\'t suprise me...Try laying off the saw palmetto for a while if your hair loss has leveled out, or reducing it.. We do need some DHT. No use trashing your body chemistry if you are losing hair for genetic reasons. A bit futile....

[DrSmellThis]

I'm bumping this thread for

newbies and those interested. It's not really a research thread, but it is informative. Sorry about the obsolete

links.

[Icehawk]

Ok so now to the age question. Do

the youngsters need this? Or is it harmfull???

[MOBLEYC57]

If I remember, it wasn't advised

for youngins. I started taking 50 mgs a month ago, after two weeks of use, I read that they are now classifying it

as steroids ... into the trash it went! :twisted: