The Ginger Factor

[**DONOTDELETE**]

This is off topic, but I\'m putting it here because I want guys to read it -- sorry to be a pain and give you something to move, Bruce.

There\'s a famous Gary Lawson (Far Side) comic strip that goes:

What we say to dogs

Okay, Ginger! I\'ve had it! You stay out of the garbage! understand, Ginger? Stay out of the garbage, or else!

What they hear

blah blah GINGER blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah GINGER blah blah blah blah...

FarSide by GaryLarson, 1983

Sometimes conversations with men make me think that they hear women in the same way that Ginger hears people. Women go blah blah blah blah, every once in awhile you get a glimmer of what she could be on about, but generally your reaction is wtf.


Or, worse, you think you know, and you butt in before she\'s finished talking.

This has been done better in so many other places - if anyone can site work on the communication styles between men and women, it would be helpful to us all, I think.

What I\'m getting to is this: YOU HAVE TO LET HER TALK

because this is what it\'s like for us, and it sucks. ...

Woman\'s Internal monologue: I think this guy is someone a cut above the herd - he shows evidence of being someone who I could talk to. I\'m going to talk to him. I think I can trust him to talk about something personal.

Aloud: I was walking in the park last night, and

MAN: Well, you shouldn\'t walk in the dark.

Woman: Yes, dear, thank you for that. As I was saying, I was walking in the park last night and thinking about the conversation I had with my friend So and So last week and I\'m still a little upset about that conversation because

Man: What you need to do is make some new friends. So and So will never change. Learn to accept it and move on.

Woman: I\'m sure you\'re right. What I was saying is that the conversation still upsets me because it reminds me of the conversation you and I had that time when we went to that place.

MAN: You\'re still thinking about that? You think too much, is your problem. You need to get out more.

It just becomes too much work when the man keeps butting in to solve what he thinks is the problem every time the woman stops for breath.

And every time you jump in with a solution and cut her off, it feels like a slap in the face, and I\'m not kidding. It hurts. It\'s about the worse thing you can do.

If we can\'t talk to you, we lose interest in f*cking you. That\'s the long and the short of it. (I\'m talking about relationships, here, not sport f*cking, which is an entirely different thing.)

Women don\'t talk intimately to get solutions. Most problems are fairly obvious and they can solve them themselves. They talk intimately to share experience and to bring you close.

If you keep butting in and fixing things, you know what you end up with?

I\'m leaving you.

Why?

I don\'t want to talk about it.


Must be her hormones. Women are incomprehensible.

[cuddlebear]

I request Bruce NOT to remove this ... I find it extremely relevant ... I don\'t want to have to go to off-topic to find it ... Cuddles /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Elana]

What irks me is when the men here ask for advice or opinions about women. All of the men will chime in giving them advice, but when a woman says something that the man doesn\'t like....they go into Ginger mode.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Or they argue.

About stuff that is basic to us, and we\'re trying to put it out there as a help. They\'ll jump right on and tell us we\'re wrong, we don\'t feel that way.

??!?

[Wolfe]

sweetie, do you think i did that from our conversation this morn?

[Elana]

Exactly. That\'s why the women PM each other and have a good laugh at some of the men behind their backs. They don\'t want us to tell it to their faces.

[Elana]

Wolfe...obviously this does not apply to all of the men here.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

No, not you. Someone else. I was so pissed off at myself for even trying again that I blasted him all to hell and then had to apologize because I know he is my friend and he wishes me well, but he didn\'t let me talk, I said I wanted to and he said it was fine, go ahead, and I was just about to spill when I got a whole speech on what\'s wrong with me and what I need to do about it.

It hurt my feelings and my pride.

It happens so often I just use y\'all for sex anymore. If I didn\'t have such a sex drive, I\'d swear you off altogether. I\'m not kidding.

Somebody somewhere should learn from this or it\'s worthless, so I\'m sharing.

I don\'t want to talk anymore about me personally because that\'s not why I brought this up. It\'s women\'s most common and bitter and sad complaint, that you don\'t listen.

[cuddlebear]

Actually, I\'m finding this to be one of the more instructive threads of late. I, for one am NOT telling the women to shut up! All the mone-manipulation in the world isn\'t going to do us one bit of good if we don\'t get certain basics right. Cuddles /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Wolfe]

whew!!!
had me worried there, i know that i\'m block headed at times, i\'ll be the 1st to admit it, but i do my best to try to listen(and learn). While being thick headed might serve me well while fighting it does make it harder to learn too (squeezes the brain i guess) /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t want to say men are stupid, although I have said it -- I\'ll admit it because I know ya\'ll have said it about women, too, from time to time.

I don\'t think men are stupid. But I do think what most of them know about women they could write on a postage stamp, and the first rule of women is LET HER TALK.

And this seems to be one of the most threatening things.

But it makes a woman SO lonely not to really be able to talk to a man she cares for, even as a friend.

Meanwhile, like the guy in the example, I\'m sure he\'s thinking, I was just giving her good advice. It\'s obvious I care about her. She doesn\'t appreciate that I care about her and give her good advice.

Every time you butt in, it\'s a piece of her heart. The more you keep on, the more you push her away.

[Whitehall]

\"It happens so often I just use y\'all for sex anymore. If I didn\'t have such a sex drive, I\'d swear you off altogether. I\'m not kidding.\"

Substitute \"whining and complaining\" for \"It\" above and you have most men\'s position on women.

I\'m not kidding.

[Irish]

To get along I think we have to become tolerant, and to some degree adopt, the conversational style of the other gender. In some ways we signal exactly the opposite idea with identical words.

You gave us the example of a woman wanting to express and be fully understood concerning her feelings about a bad situation. One writer calls this \'trouble talk\', and she points out how women engage in this for solace and to bond with others. They aren\'t looking for a solution - women use the discussion for another purpose.

In male-male conversation that style would be anathema. A problem is discussed only with a view of possible solutions. The solution plan is the goal of the conversation, not to explore their feelings about a bad situation. A man who fixates on the problem itself will be accused by other men of \'wallowing in his misery\', and rejected as weak or unworthy of a solution.

If the problem is so bad as to be hopeless and without solution, then it must be minimized, not explored. You even hear little boys comfort their buddies this way in the face of a traumatic situation: \'It\'s not so bad Jimmy. Everything will be ok\'. If a man tries this male-speak with an upset woman he will be branded as uncaring about her feelings - actually quite the opposite of his intent.

Men view problems as enemies that must be defeated. To defeat an enemy you must have a battle plan. Fear must be minimized - the enemy must never be magnified for danger of you losing heart to face it. So if a man talks in detail about how bad the problem is and how bad he feels about it, he is undercutting his own courage to face it, and making the \'enemy\' (the problem) seem bigger in his eyes. Bad battle strategy, to ruin your own morale. And in the case of the hopeless problem with no solution, his comrades ease his pain by minimizing the problem (since defeat is ineveitable), in the hope he won\'t be totally devastated by the trauma.

In a real sense men and women have completely different conversational agendas and expectations when discussing bad situations. The styles that work within own own gender are at cross-purposes when we converse with the opposite gender.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I know that, and Whitehall, I love you but you\'re an a$$hole sometimes with the sensitivity of a cold toilet seat.

You do your share and then some of complaining.

[Wolfe]

Red,not sure what happened ,or why, and really doesnt matter at this point in time as it\'s not the point of this note to you. But i do want you to know what it\'s meant to me personally to have you be there for me and to help me with my problems..many thxs. and thats from the bottom of my heart -HUGS to a great lady

[Elana]

Perfect example...Wolfe, that\'s why you actually get real dates, not just hair flips and foot shifts.

[cuddlebear]

Actually, in my relationship I have the OPPOSITE problem. I can\'t get her to talk and would be overjoyed if she would just start talking and talking. Actually if I stop talking, there is total silence. I assume this is due to past incidences where she tried to speak but got cut off. I hope in time she will realize that I am not going to do that. How might I get her to talk?

[Wolfe]

when all else fails..just hold her

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t know, Cuddles. A lot of us have quit trying.

[cuddlebear]

Now that I can handle ..

[cuddlebear]

I hear you, but does that mean there is nothing we can do??

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thank you, Wolfe.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Cuddles, I don\'t know.

WHAT IRISH SAID. WHAT IRISH SAID.

And it\'s THIS - it\'s one thing to say men and women are different and try to understand the differences. My complaint with many men is that they openly denigrate women\'s style. We\'re just complaining. We\'re just bitches. We just want to feel bad.

It\'s not constructive and it WILL, EVERY TIME, make the woman\'s heart harden against you to the point it hurts just to look at you, much less even think about opening her legs and letting you inside.

[cuddlebear]

If someone, or a whole bunch of someones, has made my sweetie\'s heart harden, then what I would like to know is what I can say to start the healing process? By the way, this is the most informative thread I\'ve seen in some time .. hardly off topic if seduction is what\'s on a guy\'s mind ... Cuddles

[Wolfe]

\"I love you, and if you ever need someone i\'ll be there for you\"..then do it

[Elana]

or you could read some of those great ebooks like fukdembitches. Those seem to offer the men really great advice on women. /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

[cuddlebear]

Sounds good to me .. ladies is he on track??

[**DONOTDELETE**]

She may be ruined for good.

I have constructed my relationships with men so that they\'re ONLY sexual. With new men I try to meet, I set it up as an erotic encounter and I tell them NOT to talk. I don\'t want to talk anymore.

I was relating an incident to a close girlfriend about something SDR said and she said, \"WHY do they always have to ruin it with their stupid mouths?\"

I hate to say it, but it\'s the truth. Men talk too much, they know it all, they\'re constantly at the ready to shoot off their mouths about their superiority, cut the woman off when she\'s trying to articulate something, and tell her how it should be or how it is -- we just hear that as \"Shut up. I don\'t care what you think. I don\'t want to know how you feel.\"

If she\'s not talking anymore, she\'s watching even more closely what you do. Keep acting right and one day she might open up. For now I\'d say just be glad she\'s sticking. You must be doing something right.

[Wolfe]

i hope that was a \'dig\' at some of the jerkoffs i\'ve seen post on this forum before cause i for one find that title offensive

[cuddlebear]

One point I do want to clarify, there is no difficulty whatsoever in our relationship at this point. It is as close to fairy-tale perfect as one could imagine, but I do notice she is not particularly talkative ...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, Elana -- one of those find \'em, fool \'em, f*ck \'em and forget \'em e-books. That\'s great for relationship skills. And get it into your head that they don\'t know what they want, can\'t think straight, are only emotional, are inferior in pretty much every way, because THAT will help you form a loving and supportive relationship with a woman who\'s eager to please you in every way and make you happy.

[Whitehall]

If you\'re looking for a \"sensitive\" guy, look elsewhere, madam.

Of course, that\'s NOT what you want or need in a man. At least I know that I do not want a woman who acts like a man - I want a sensitive woman who acts like a woman. If she\'s a good enough woman, I\'ll put up with her complaining.

I am patient, polite, and understanding with the women in my life but I can\'t get emotionally involved in a woman\'s stream of complaining and whining. To do so is paralyzing and emasculating.

For example, our car tire goes flat -let\'s both just feel so bad about the flat tire and share those feelings, shall we? The \"Ginger\" route is the only way for a man to act and still be a man.

Darling Red, my countercriticism is that you want your cake and to eat it too - you only admire a man who gets things done but you expect him to listen to your complaints like a woman. I love you darling too - guess I\'ll just have to endure the blah-blah-blah-blah....

BTW, what I do is criticism, not complaining - big difference.

This anatomical/cold toliet seat comparison - what that a mixed metaphor?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Whitehall, begging your pardon, you have no idea what I want or need in a man.

What I want to know from you is, is your attitude giving you any success?

Is your masculinity so easily threatened that talking about feelings is emasculating? Or letting HER talk about her feelings, at least? That can\'t be managed, either?

How do you expect a woman to feel for you, then?

And do you think that the constant criticism is conducive to any kind of success with a woman? You just hit me when I was down. Do you get off on that? You\'ve been kind enough to me in other ways and other instances that I continue to look beyond the incredibly demeaning things you say about women. But it\'s not that I don\'t see them. And I don\'t think they\'re doing you any good.

But if you\'d rather be right than be successful, hey.

[Wolfe]

a oak tree that can not bend in the wind will break in the end

[cuddlebear]

Well, it\'s turned a little ugly here .. Shame because I want to know everything I can about the woman\'s standpoint ... was Wolfe on the money when he said \"hold her and let her know you\'ll be there\"?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

We\'re talking \"man to man\" with mutual respect. It\'s not getting ugly. It\'s being truthful.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

that tirade is absolutely and completely off-topic. there isn\'t even a remote connection to pheromones.

it should be in off topic. it\'s even less topical than that awful Ghostclown thread. at least that had a loose tie to mones.

move this garbage to the right board and let them curse the evil misogynists who called for it. clearly, the only reason it even posted in the main forum is the fact that this individual feels they have such stature that they can spin their emotional, outrageously generalized tapestry in the face of every Joe six pack visiting for the latest on Swinger, KR1 or to ask DrSmell something, whatever..

looking for hit stories, brothers? hear a blanket statement about how bad men are for your trouble..

telling your hit stories, guys? look out for someone asking you \"were you listening to her?\" \"how about making her dinner?\" \"how about holding her?\" if your story doesn\'t fulfill certain female forum members romantic ideal, you better be prepared. there\'s as much judgment as their is a lack of guy chat. wonder why that is?

more hit stories, from guys, in the guy forum, leave your judgments at the door.

to be constructive for when the thread moves.. whitehall was absolutely right: it\'s a two-way street. look at behaviors you display that allow disrespect to continue - are you too demanding of people\'s attention? bueller? -you- put up these rants fully knowing they\'re out of place and against (casual) rules. that diagnosis kinda writes itself.

just as an editorial, though, the most amusing thing for this fella was that FTR, person who circled the wagons on the Ghostclown thing, a bit later in a hit report of her own said it was a married guy and that -wasn\'t- necessarily a concern.. now DrSmell was on point in that thread, but the later revelation made ME chortle and enjoy a \"that\'s women for you.\"


and hey, Bruce... do feminists secretly own 51% of Love-Scent or something? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

that\'s a joke.

and the next time I decide to think all women are hos, or all women are too emotional, too demanding of some ideal, they are too materialistic... (met em all, but I try not to generalize)... I\'ll be sure to write it up as quick as possible and toss it up on the women\'s forum.

hey, i\'ll even hire a royal butt kisser to say how appropriate it is in the wrong forum.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The first thing I said, Joshua, was that this was off topic.

You obviously haven\'t read the women\'s forum. The guys come on it constantly and diss women.

The rest of what you wrote is not worth responding to.

[Elana]

Is that Pet? /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Wolfe]

Don\'t like it..DON\'T READ IT

[**DONOTDELETE**]

No. Pet\'s smarter, a better writer, and a much more careful reader.

[Elana]

or maybe tounge /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I acknowleged that the first thing you said was that this was off-topic. that makes it worse, in fact, since you are aware of the way things work and choose to think you\'re above such trivial concerns.

the men *must* be made aware of how bad we are? probably the same person who helped lobby for creation of a womans forum uses this one to broadcast the most important tripe from the soapbox..

[Wolfe]

heh /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have no idea who you are, but it\'s obvious you\'re not a fan.

What\'s your point?

If you don\'t like this thread, maybe you have better things to do than read it.

[Wolfe]

you guys have kinda left cuddles hanging though, he asked if what i said was the best us men could do,,was i?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

yes

[**DONOTDELETE**]

quite frankly, your arrogance and dismissal only emphasizes the shallow way in which you operate. your insecurity practically leaps at the reader.

of course, your wisest choice is to ignore. but just understand that your actions dont go unnoticed.. and if I wasnt so lazy I\'d link people to the thread where youre tossing judgments like rice at a wedding, and you end up looking about as foolish as you are.

but I wouldn\'t know how to respond to you - I wasn\'t listening.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

so wait, you\'re telling me I should follow some rule of not reading what I don\'t like, when -you- are the one who went to the effort to post it here against better judgment?

how about that wild haired idea of posting it where it belongs in the first place?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Link them up. Most people have read it anyway. My deficiencies are not the point of this thread and frankly, you\'re tiresome to me and I\'d prefer not to engage with you. I fought my battle back on that thread. You STILL don\'t get the point. It doesn\'t matter to me anymore.

Was there something you wanted to contribute about men and women\'s communication styles being antithetical, thereby killing passion between them? Or was this just a I HATE FTR thread for you?

[Whitehall]

Not trying to hurt your feelings. When you\'re strong, you love witty banter - you\'re a regular Noel Coward at it. Call me insensitive for not realizing how down you are now - that\'s fair.

Just pointing out, in less diplomatic terms than Irish might, that men have a counter-viewpoint and a different self-interest.

While I seek your respect and continued interactions, I do not intend for anyone I communicate with via the internet to develop a true emotional attachment to me. There\'s no hope of love that way.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You didn\'t hurt my feelings. I\'m used to you. I KNOW men have a counter viewpoint. That\'s about all we hear. I was trying to get the women\'s side across.

As usual, you\'d prefer not to hear what a woman has to say.

/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

P.S. A true emotional attachment??

I\'m Southern. We\'re effusive. Don\'t take it personally.


ANYWAY.

John Gray is good on the subject of male/female communication styles.

Irish, where did you get your knowledge about it from? Any books you can recommend?

[Wolfe]

quite frankly you\'re butting in where your not wanted so go away

[**DONOTDELETE**]

an I hate FTR thread? don\'t flatter yourself. I\'m glad you\'re able to label me tiresome and unintelligent already.

as far as your deficencies are concerned, the whole point is the annoyance factor. the annoying quality of someone spouting their romantic ideals all over the place, right after they relate their multiple orgy experiences, mention their having more phone sex friends than a 900 line, and ponder the idea of sleeping with married men..

that\'s ABSOLUTELY the person I want to have pontificating about what\'s wrong with what men bring to the table.

and apparently you\'re the one who didn\'t get it. I\'ll spell it out - I think that dynamic stops a lot of the hit stories from coming out at all. not one person, but theres obviously a serious dropoff from when you go back into the archives..

was there a Sanctimonious Chick Brigade then? and the emasculated hangers on? I\'m thinking no....

[Whitehall]

\"As usual, you\'d prefer not to hear what a woman has to say.\"

Like most people, I prefer listening to discussions that reinforce my own prejudices.

Still love you, darling. Thanks for putting up with me.

[Wolfe]

nope..mostly just alot of punk kids babbling about something many teens babble about w/o really having ever had it........................
not to mention you\'re proving her right with your attitude.


\"Stick your head in the sand, somebody will come along and shoot your ass off\"
[i] Wolfe

[Wolfe]

tell me something. just what is your purpose in attacting a woman?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Wolfe, Yes and Yes!
And Joshua, I never said you were not intelligent. Tiresome is what I said. Apparently I\'m not alone in that opinion. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Whitehall, love you too, babe. No harm no foul.

[Irish]

I read a great book years ago - unfortunately forgot the title and author! She was a PhD/Communications - don\'t know how to retrieve it now. The author discussed women\'s \'trouble talk\', used to find solace in bad times and to form deeper bonds with others (usually other women, since men typically don\'t do this). She traced gender conversation styles back to childhood patterns (implying it was inborn to some degree). Commented directly on the frustration women feel about men \'not listening\', defended men to some degree based on the male-male pattern men mistakenly use with women. I thought the author didn\'t fully understand male conversation however, as she painted all male interaction as hierarchal, when all men know there is also a \'comrade\' male relationship - maybe the strongest within our own gender. Anyway, that\'s a poor review of a book I can\'t identify anymore. But my experience backs up the general idea - men and women often talk for different internal reasons, and becuase of differing styles/expectations can misread the responses of the other gender.

Bright social people should be able to realize this and accommodate one another. But that\'s not to excuse louts and shrews, who have a more real and deeper problem than poor conversation skills.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'ll do some searching this afternoon and see if I can find that book.

-- \'trouble talk\', used to find **solace in bad times** and to form deeper bonds with others --
One time I did manage, and I can\'t remember what magic words I used, to get this idea across to SDR - and he said \"You make me feel so big and strong.\"

Which was elating because that\'s part of the purpose, to be able to talk to someone who is bigger and stronger.

I know that\'s not exactly \"real world\" maybe, maybe it IS romantic, but ... what\'s wrong with that?

Just seems maybe if we knew how to talk to one another better we could enjoy each other more. Rather than see it as complaining, see it as her trying to be close to you; rather than see it as emasculating, see it as her needing your strength and understanding.

[Wolfe]

men are taught by other men how to \'communicate\' (as women are taught by other women) wherein may lie the problems between the sexs. Neither really understands the other. now no offence ladies, however you cant believe the number of times i\'ve had to listen to \"all men want is sex\" and though i\'ll admit i love to \'get it on\' it isnt what makes me breath.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

No, and I know that\'s true from conversations I\'ve had with you, that it\'s not just about the sex.
Conversely, women are accused of not being interested in sex when we ARE but we\'re made so we can\'t respond if we feel disconnected emotionally.
Again, I\'m talking about relationships, not casual sex.

[Wolfe]

seems alot of \'prejudice\' in the world between the races and not just black/white/yellow/green but the sexs as well and thats really a shame as bonding is what it\'s all about..male/female attraction..the \'purpose\' i thought of -mone use was for to begin with

[Wolfe]

BTW, IMHO this is a topic that belongs here. The heading states

\"Discussion of pheromones and other topics related to the science of attraction \"
now ya ask me,,communicating is nessicary to the attraction process..

[belgareth]

Agreed, it belongs here. Some people just wanted something to complain about.

[bivonic]

I prefer Mary Ann.

[Whitehall]

In some ways its a \"zero sum game\" - I win/you lose or you win and I lose.

She complains and he has to listen begrudgely OR she sits silently complaining internally about the distance between them.

The Win/Win plan is for him to devote some time to hearing her out and for her to keep it to the point. As always, compromise is the key to civilization.

I don\'t think that the communicating styles are conditioned. I think they reflect internal neurological structures and have a largely genetic basis. Of course conditioning during development affects structure too to some extent.

[Wolfe]

A journey can not end untill the first step is taken

[belgareth]

Is she really complaining or thinking out loud and trying to share her thoughts? To keep to the point, there needs to be one and that isn\'t always the case. Ever have one of those blue sky discussions over beer where several people ramble on for hours? My friends and I do it about computer related stuff. you may do it about physics. Whatever the topic, most people do it, and seem to, at some level, need it. Could that be loosely compared to a woman\'s talk? I think so and they need it just as much as we do.

There is no reason to assume a zero sum game. Rather, how can we both win. That can only be done by both genders making a greater effort to understand the other. Niether side is without a point or without guilt when we fail to communicate.

[Gerund]

Wow, 67 posts in 3 hours. On a topic dealing with how men & women miscommunicate/misunderstand one another.

There\'s a good one-liner here somewhere, I just can\'t put my finger on it! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Trust you to make me laugh for the first time since I opened up this Pandora\'s box. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Gerund]

/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif I\'m smilin\' at ya, baby~ /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Wolfe]

hum

[**DONOTDELETE**]

wolfe, I can barely understand a sentence I see from you. call me a \'stupid punk\' if you wish. the idea that the archives\' mass of stories are mostly false is too baseless and pointless to care about.


and in my humble as well, this started off topic but somehow got more and more useful in a hurry after I spoke up.. and this form I\'m filling out? it says reply to (pheromone discussion). if it was reply to (moral lessons..) or reply to (female kvetching unlimited), maybe you\'d have something.


one point being, people myself included are less likely to post their stories, much less real accounts, when people (known roughly as hypocrites) are telling some what would be moral to do.. when they themselves sound most foolish of all, as they too use foreign products to fool mating instincts of others. then act like every seduction should come right out of a novel with Fabio on the cover? please


and no FTR, the mones are not like your lipstick or my expensive watch. and like I said, i didnt expect you to do anything less than sit back, dismiss it and say \"look, told you so!\" about the line of morons rushing to defend what you even know you did...


and no doubt, if I visited the womens forum and a guy opened a thread.. SAID it was uncalled for from moment one.. and then still tiraded on the gender at large.. I\'d be annoyed. few more instances, sure I\'ll tell them to go play in traffic. but if its a soapbox like FTR\'s, one I already didnt like the shine of, I will toss in my voice.


if I didnt think this trend hurt the research, I wouldnt post. if I didnt think it discouraged Joe pheromone from posting his true account, I wouldnt post. Now since you seem shallow enough to rely on numbers, ive seen quite a few Pms from guys already.

other than saying I wasnt as nice as I couldve been (I think I\'ll sleep ok..) they at worst think I made good points.


edit: wolfe, you read natedogg? speaking of shoes fitting, there\'s one tailor made for you

edit 2: some redhead decided to do a edit job on their initial posts, quietly. while publicly I\'m to be ignored by the harem, hangers on etc. poor AFCs..

edit 3: thanks for PMs. I know ya may lose the clique card telling these self-righteous insects to bug off. had to be done.

[Irish]

If you listen to women talk in groups you will pick up on how they take turns telling what bothers them, offering support to each other about similar experiences, etc. They hear each other out about problems. They get something out of the act of relating/sharing that men don\'t need - and don\'t really like to do ourselves.

It\'s pretty amazing to a man - if a guy tries that with other guys we\'ll chastize him for whining and ask him pointedly when he plans to quit complaining and do something about it.

By trial and error my approach has evolved into something like this:

*If she\'s bothered by something I encourage her to tell me. It may take a while for the whole story to come out.
*I really listen, ask questions and repeat back to make sure I really get it.
*Bite my tongue when I have the perfect solution (this is the hard part).
*When we\'re both sure I\'ve heard it, I see if she wants to talk about solutions.
*Over time I train her that men are solution-oriented, and it helps me to feel useful if I can offer solutions. I also let her know that a man offering a solution is a form of male concern - but I recognize she needs a listening ear at the moment more than \'help\'.
*This usually works out, but some women are as selfish and inconsiderate as any man, and are only concerned with their own needs. It\'s hard to form a partnership with that kind of woman, and any more I don\'t try.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s good thinking.

My solution has been to go completely non-verbal. if I want comfort, I put my head on his chest. He responds immediately by clutching my head to his chest and holding me tight -- it\'s -- I can feel it. I get what I need and don\'t have to talk about it. I\'ve tried and that\'s just not the relationship I have with this guy. I know he has for me the feelings that I want - I can feel it in him and I can tell by how he reacts physically - but talking is not going to happen and just screws things endlessly up.

[Wolfe]

don\'t believe i called you any thing, however if the shoes fits. point is, you stepped in and made a statement that didnt need to be made, first off -IF you read what this forum is about you\'d realize that w/o comunications (both verbal and physical) there\'d be no need for this forum to be here.
second place what you think of me or what i say means little to me.
really fairly simple, don\'t like what i say,,don\'t read it.

[belgareth]

Wolfe

Give it up. The guy isn\'t going to listen to reason. He already knows all the answers. Give him the consideration he deserves. In other words, ignore him.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok i like to have the input of the women , its great for real life situations! But guys, why do we use pheromones? To give yourself that little andvantage in real life! I know i myself have an occasional little comment toward the ladies, but there are some guys who just wast forum space being some womans bitch? I mean we have genuine forum post stalkers,lol! Its like some guys are getting pussy whipped by the women of the forum! i know ladies its not your fault these guys have some serious issues! Come on guys focuse on what your goals really are! Good luck to all fellow forum users!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s been pointed out that I have \"quietly\" been editing my initial posts. Which is true. I corrected two typos and added the phrase \"a better writer\" to my compliment to Pet.

If anyone cares besides my not-so-much-friend, I don\'t generally Mark As Edited when the edits do not change the substance of the post but are only typo corrections.

If it\'s sneaky to go back and correct typos or touch up a phrase, how much more sneaky is it to hide behind a new name and make nasty remarks? A shame our new friend can\'t live up to the standards to which he holds me.

[Wolfe]

i would like to point out-->\"related to the science of attraction\"<---now to me communications sure falls under that heading. If you can\'t figure out a persons body langauge you sure arn\'t gonna be \'attracted\" or vice-versa..plain and simple, this topic DOES belong here and no one, but no one, ever twisted my arm to read any thread on this forum. And that same thing applies to my comments, rather they be to side with either male or female, as i could give a damn less what any one thinks. I \'side\' with no one but myself and i WILL express my thoughts no matter what anyone thinks about them..

[upsidedown]

WOW, I had to work this afternoon and had no access to the internet all day. I never expected this when I got home!

I\'m not going to get into the discussion of it all as I\'ve had to read it all so quickly that I don\'t feel like I\'ve digested even 10% of what everybody has said.

But, my only comment concerns the complaint about the appropriateness of this thread, and where it belongs. The thing is that a forum like this is what the members make of it, not what one or two people think it should be. I get frustrated when a member (Joshua in this case) trys to tell us exactly how the forum should be run, and the appropriate way to do it. The only person who has a right to do this is Bruce...and I would respect any guidelines he sets up because he\'s footing the bill for all this.. But, for the most part, this forum is the way it is now because the majority of the current active members have made it this way..

If you don\'t like a particualr thread, then just simply don\'t read it. It\'s just that simple. But, I for one love to hear how women think... hey, I even hope to be married to one some day. And, I for one like as much input as I can get. I\'m sorry, but I\'m not so insecure as a man that I can\'t take a little constructive input from women, nor do I feel the need to lash out for hearing what they think. I may disagree at times...but then again, maybe I need to try to understand as well.

But, I drift off topic. I do think that healthy debate is a good thing...and this thread accomplished that. But, my main point was basically if you don\'t like a thread, don\'t read it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Post deleted by FullTiltRedhead

[Wolfe]

sigh /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

[Lucky]

I\'m sort of new at this site and I haven\'t noticed Joshua around before today. If I understand this thread correctly, Josh\'s issue is with the placement of the post...how could he, being a newcomer, know what is proper for this forum?

[Wolfe]

it wasnt his issue with \'where\' it was placed that pissed me off, he was his attitude that just cause FTR didnt agree with him over it that it gave him the right to pass judgements on her lifestyle and call her names because of it, but you\'re also right in what you said,. not that he was new though, but only 1 person has the right to say what is right or not right to post somewhere and thats Bruce...period

[upsidedown]

Yes Lucky, that was basically my point in my previous post. I checked Josua\'s profile. He signed up today about half an hour before he made his first scathing post. I\'m sorry, but that irritates me. You worded it perfectly Lucky....\"how could he, being a newcomer, know what is proper for this forum?\"

[Wolfe]

IMHO this was no newb but a new id made just to get on FTR\'s case for some reason. read fully what was said and you\'ll notice they refered to \'archives\'. now i cked when they were online as well..and NO way did they \'read archives\' in the time they were logged on as a \'new\' member.

[franki]

Well, obviously he is not a newcomer. Probably a lurker, probably someone else.

Franki /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[upsidedown]

Yes, I was going to say. Many people lurk on here as an unregistered reader for a long time. They just never register and post anything. This person could have been reading old posts for months now as a unregistered person.

I still think this person could be one of those long time lurkers, first time posters who just posted for the first time today. But, if not, then it\'s truly sad that a person feels the need to change their identity to come on and post like he did.

[Wolfe]

sorry..but it\'s sad that anyone has to diss someone over thier lifestyle and call them names..like they have ANY clue as to what that person is REALLY like, tells me they have NO life of thier own

[Whitehall]

Red,

It looks like you\'re seeing the guys\' point of view. To get emotionally involved in problems you can\'t solve or remedy is to surrender to impotence. We don\'t want that and I find that, ultimately, women don\'t either.

I know that I don\'t wish to cause a woman suffering nor do I enjoy seeing it. I\'ll be very generous emotionally if by so doing I can help someone feel better or have a happier life. But it\'s a no-win situation if the woman just wants me to get down and wallow in sappy, miserable emotions with her. That shows a lack of character in the woman.

So I\'m glad to be a shoulder to cry on if it makes it better but I\'m adverse to crying with you.

WOMEN - gotta love \'em!

[Bruce]

It is possible to register additional identities which is not so cool in a situation like this, but as a few folks have mentioned, some visitors spend a lot of time lurking as unregistered guests and without us really noticing become quite familiar with the dramas and players. I can imagine somebody getting to the end of their rope with somebody and registering just to get his/her 2 cents in.

For a few reasons that have been discussed, I don\'t think this thread was off topic in the beginning. Guy\'s go over to the women\'s section fishing for women\'s feedback, and they haven\'t even been listening for the answers. Just sort of putting their dirty feet up on the furniture and making themselves at home.

The problem is that the thread turned into a brawl of sorts and starts absorbing a huge amount of energy; sort of like the monster in the old Japanese sci-fi flicks, where you bomb it and blast it and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Tossing a brawl thread into the Off Topic forum tends to spray a little cold water on it.

So, the original problem with the thread wasn\'t that it wasn\'t exactly about pheromones. It was just something that was likely to burst into flames at a moments notice. But, as has been noted, considering what guys are doing in the women\'s forum on a daily basis, you can hardly blame FTR.

Finally, as Upsidedown mentioned, there is so much here, that I am forced to make a decision without reading everything. That ain\'t the best, so admittedlly, I might be blowing it here.

Anyway, hold on to your hats folks... here we go...

Love,
Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If I could delete everything I wrote, I would.

[cuddlebear]

No way, Reds, I learned more about women through this thread than through every other one put together. If we\'re so anxious to get inside a girl, maybe we need to actually get inside the girl a little bit ... maybe huh? Probably the most offensive thing I have ever read in my life was a phrase in Hustler magazine (like I expected philosophy?) that read \"How to keep her legs open and her mouth shut\". I for one am grateful that you put this post up. I could have done without some of Joshua\'s stuff, but I\'ve been called worse than a moron. I will come back to this thread (at least parts of it) from time to time ... thanks again Reds ... take care ... Cuddles /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[seadove]

FTR
Here is my 2 cents worth.
I have read your article three times so that it would sink in and that I would thoroughly understand what you are talking about.When I finished reading it I felt my head bowing down slowly and my eyes saw the floor.Suddenly I realize something.
When G-d created Adam He may not have had an idea what that product would turn out to be.It was like building that first Ford model T version with lots of faults.A very rough version of mankind .
And when He decided to create the woman he has by now enough experience from what He had from creating the man.So He started building, He made the woman more beautiful, more undertanding, more responsible, smarter, and on top of that He put more LIFE in her.He made her capable of bearing children and capable also of surviving ALONE without the man.
So you see, we men are just model T.We have many faults which came basically from the fact that we were the first to be built.The women came after and therefore they enjoy better modelling.
See?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[tounge]

He He. Just read this silly thread. I love how some people imply that I\'m Josha. Never far from Elana\'s mind. Now why is that guys?I can assure you that I only post under my name. And I\'m sure Bruce can verify this.I couldn\'t give two shits about what is said here. It\'s only the effing internet. I have a real life with real flesh and blood people. Too many people seem to use this as their social life. Good grief. P.S. You people do provide a brief moment of entertainment to my very busy life. Keep up the good work!!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

http://www.menstuff.org/books/byissue/communication.html (\"http://www.menstuff.org/books/byissue/communication.html\")

This lists and briefly describes several books concerning communication.

I haven\'t found the book that Irish mentioned yet, but thought in the meantime these looked good.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

More

http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/tannend/books.htm (\"http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/tannend/books.htm\")

[Lucky]

Tounge,

Why would you waste your valuable time writing notes to such losers?

Help me understand this one....

[Wolfe]

and i guess your a excellant judge of who\'s a loser and who\'s not?
ok red if you say so. didnt look that wy to me, and having PM off makes it tough /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Elana]

Wolfe my darling.....sarcasm is really wasted on you isn\'t it? /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif What Lucky was saying to Tounge was what we call Tongue (spelled correctly) in cheek.

[Lucky]

I\'m not calling anyone a loser, Tounge is.

Maybe if we all work really hard today, no lunch, work late, etc. AND make a few new friends - maybe, just maybe, Tounge will let us join his Busy Bee Club.

[Wolfe]

yes it is cause i call a spade a spade and never worry about what they think /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif..sorry /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Wolfe]

LMAO now i DO hope THAT one was sarcasm /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Elana]

I don\'t think so Lucky. Tounge and his right hand are very, very busy.

[Wolfe]

now how ya know that??? maybe a lefty ya know

[Elana]

Tounge is a winner. I\'m sure he is a smooth talker and get\'s action from both righty and lefty.

[Wolfe]

ok Red that ought to hook you up with my email addy /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif..and maybe what i told ya will help to understand /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

[Wolfe]

much of what you said yesterday really hit home ya know, i\'ve been beating myself up ove a lost love ..many of the things you talked about had a role in what happened to me

[Wolfe]

some wounds never seem to heal

[Wolfe]

that\'s why i go out and satisfy my lust, but never my hungar

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s true.

But things change. Maybe something good will happen. Or someONE good.

[Wolfe]

that will NEVER happen again

[Wolfe]

hands Lucky a <font color=green>---&gt;--&gt;--&gt;--<font color=yellow>@

[tounge]

Dear Lucky, I know you really don\'t want an answer to your question. However, sinced you asked. First, I never called anyone a loser. Second, I have been following this site for well over 2 years. I miss the good old days when this was a wealth of information posted by knowledgeble people. Sadly very few of those people seem to post anymore. I was browsing thru the posts late last night. Saw this thread with 95 psts in a few short hours. Took a look, saw that my handle was thrown in the thread for whatever reason. I made a response.

Funny how nobody responds to the substance of Josua\'s message, but make personal attacks on the guy(or gal). So in essence Lucky, if you want to read peple acting like losers,
read the posts after what I wrote earlier. They convict themselves.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s hard to respond to substance when there isn\'t any. He flew off the handle, completely, completely misunderstood everything I was trying to say, launched into personal attacks, and was generally incomprehensible to most of us who were trying to talk about how men and women talk. I introduced the subject in a personal way with emotional overtones, relating a personal experience -- that\'s how women talk -- our friend Joshua took immediate offense and interpreted everything I said as an attack -- I\'m telling the guys how \"bad\" they are. ?? Notice Irish, who is a gentleman and a scholar, did no such thing, for example. We struggled to have a decent conversation around Joshua and eventually managed, although his tantrum made the thread get bumped off topic.

What substance, exactly, did you want to see addressed? That I\'m a whore and a hypocrite? His threats to expose me as a horrible person? His accusation that I just came on to bash men? His insistance on attacking me personally? The credit he tried to take when he finally woke up and realized what the thread was about? What part of that do you really want spoken to?

Sorry your name was mentioned if it wasn\'t you. You have in the past jumped into the middle of a post and accused people of malice when there was absolutely none. It kind of sounded like something you\'d do. Unfortunately.

Of course, I\'m perfect and never take things wrong. (sarcasm)

[Wolfe]

10-9-8-7-6........

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Another question I have is, WHO are these people who are so sorely missed, who have left the forum in disgust? What prevents them from writing? I write against protest. Tounge, you prevail whether we like it or not. :P Who are these paragons and why are they unable to come forth anymore? The pheromone main forum has gone back to the entity it always was, now that us women and asorted riff-raffs\' posts are kept down the page where they belong. What continues to be the problem? Enlighten me, please, I beg you.

[Wolfe]

just how long has this \'Forum\' existed anyways?(in yrs?)

[Lucky]

Tounge,
No, I do want an answer. You know the forum, I am new. However, I have enjoyed the parlay of posts - simple as I may be. Attraction between the genders is not pure science, my friend. The interactions discussed on the Ginger thread are certainly relative to mating.

Your mean spirited comments were hateful and unnecessary. Did you miss the manners class in the Busy Bee School?You ought to apologize.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

tounge is completely right. in rushing to defend the philosophical perfection that is FTR, several showed their foolishness by making the first personal attack, receiving one in turn, then criticizing me for personal attacks. clever.

most of it is wolfe, however, and I still could make more sense out of hearing someone speak underwater than I can from what he says.

FTR? lol. I set a trap, you fell right in. far be it for you to respond to any of my content, which now both publicly and privately is acknowledged as for real.. you \'take a stand\' on the issue of post editing? and leave it at that? how utterly foolish is that?


first of all, yes you did edit significant portions of the vitriol from the first post. you lie because you can. second, it was only added because I knew you\'d single it out and only reply to that, because you think that\'s a point for you, but again.. it only shows ya the fool ya are.


but hating you? a grudge? no. just ripping the head off the godzilla, to borrow from bruce. there are other parts.. like people have commented on, now again publicly and in volume privately, hit stories are down. people are hesitant. they are being judged (mainly) by a chick with as much moral authority as Mike Tyson judging Miss Black America again..


the more you think about it, the truer it becomes. and it needs to stop. and I feel it will stop, if only for the drastic change in FTRs attitude after I made my points. of course she\'s too highly evolved to engage me - \"the rest of what you said is not worth responding to\" - care to see several PMs to the contrary, honeypoosuckles?


edit: apparently her attitude didn\'t change as much as previously thought...


and bruce, i\'m disappointed. not only did it not belong at all and only became topical -after- my complaints and FTR morphing from drama queen to mrs. pragmatism in a half hour, the whole thing in general hurts the site.


fact: guys arent posting as many stories as they used to. speculation: you dont require marketing lessons about how that would impact pheromone business.


another fact: I have nothing against any of the guys posting here. -nothing-. I want to see more of what you have to say - that\'s my team - and I want to feel free myself to post without being asked (like others have) if I did X or Y romantic/chivalrous thing during my seduction. BY PEOPLE WHO MISLEAD OTHERS INSTINCTS WITH IT -THEMSELVES-!?


Hello!!?? No wonder she doesn\'t respond..


and yeah Bruce, I\'m some Mothra who needs nukes tossed at him to make the monster go away. or maybe.. I\'m a just a regular guy with a confident voice and very, very valid points about what should be one of the most interesting BBS on seduction out there...


overall, I think im done. some will think twice before passing judgment on these horny teens or twentysomethings who don\'t exactly give their dollars to florists and chocolate candymakers on every date.. they dont need your empty criticism. if anything comes from the women, it should be cool, fun and down with what theyre trying to do or keep it shut. PM the fella. go kvetch in the womens forum about the poor man\'s world, right after the thread about getting a hot, married lawyer to go for a fat chick with diluted EW. that makes all the moral sense in the world, you know... lol


either way, from PMs I have this feeling its gonna get better from now on. somebody had to jump on the grenade. thank you again....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

forgive my lack of civility..

but what a pompous, egocentric, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, hypocritical harridan you are. go bang another married guy, have phone sex with four more, and then come back here and tell us we don\'t give you the emotional support you deserve.


what you deserve is a date with Jenny Craig and a job in Las Vegas. you comprehend that okay??

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Wow.

You sure do give me a lot of power.

AND misinterpret almost everything you hear.

What is with you and my sex life? I\'m realy curious about that. What\'s up with that? I had phone sex, I did this, I did that, who gives a damn? What are you trying to prove?

Where am I romantic all over the place?

I have as many faults as anyone else and then some maybe. What\'s your beef? All on my own, I\'m keeping guys from posting?

I\'m really powerful. I should probably BE as arrogant and egotistical as you say I am.

You come across like a nut case. Still.

\"and I feel it will stop, if only for the drastic change in FTRs attitude after I made my points. \"

What drastic change in attitude? What POINTS did you make?

And what edits did I make? Other than the ones I said I did.

I\'m serious, I want to know what you\'re talking about.

[belgareth]

Joshua:

Are you new here or just changed your name? I ask because it seems like you suddenly jumped into the middle of things with a lot of hatred and made a lot of demands. I was curious as to whether it was some long pent up thing you couldn\'t express under your real name or if you just want to dominate the whole world.

A number of forum members felt that the post was appropriate where it was, do they/we get a vote? Or must it be as you, an unidentified stranger, demand without regard to other forum members? If you really want to be fair and forthright, why don\'t you start a poll to find out if communication is an important part of the science of attraction. Then we can all abide by the majority. How about it?

If you will go back and re-read Wolfe\'s posts slowly and carefully, you will probably find they are not really much beyond your comprehension; even though he does try to speak reasonably instead of blindly attacking with hatred. Perhaps when you have grown up and gain half the real world experience some of the older people on this forum have, you will realize what a silly a$$ you sound like. I doubt it, but we can always hope.

Other than that, I can only suggest you get some counseling, you sound like you have some real issues to work out.

[Wolfe]

when you deal with someone with [bad word] for brains-bring alot ot toilet paper.
Now Jos, as far as you go, and understanding what i say, ask me if i care what you think and the answer is real simple..no i don\'t.
BTW, is someone twisting your arm to read my post?( or anyones post for that matter).i bet not.
I believe that your one of those that lost his lunch money every day on the short bus.

[Wolfe]

BTW, have any trouble understanding that one?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I went to care to say you didn\'t do it on your own. Are you the primary offender? Sure. I\'m not exactly the only person thinking that very thing.

I come across like a nut case? I absolutely guarantee that I am much more fortunate than you regarding my intelligence, level of education and professional accomplishment. funny, instead I believe you are the twisted, hurt one. now, your emotions have calmed down, after you\'ve edited most of the garbage out of the first post, you\'re the civil, sane one? swing and a miss.


listen closely. anything about your sex life is relevant to your own haughty opinions.. your own judgments and criticisms are diluted about as much as your EW by the facts. those judgments are worthless to me and discouraging to others. I\'m not saying that\'s a fact for everyone, it\'s my opinion as a reader and I\'m not alone.


i do continue to not be surprised by your superior attitude and dismissive nature. i like how you respond so quickly, you must spend quite the boring existence bravely patrolling one BBS for feminists everywhere. (joke)


there\'s no use in obliging you and saying everything again. its all been said and I know you\'re smart enough to do better in the future, but keen enough to admit no responsibility. besides, you\'ve already shown you\'re far below doing anything but editing, posturing, lying, showing a stuck-up, superior attitude with a little subtle name calling mixed in..


I give you power? Not exactly. I\'m helping to go ahead and take that away. sure, it\'s not just this one thread. I pray youve gathered that at this stage..


do I want some nutty old chick who uses pheromones herself (along with the things previously said..) to judge me and what I do with a woman? to suggest I be more ideally romantic? no.


and re-read the egotistical language in your post about \"where did these disgruntled guys go\"? if that doesnt -show- you what\'s wrong with that enormously flawed attitude, and why they\'re SOMEWHERE ELSE, nothing will.


and please, color me the incomprehensible madman, I couldn\'t care less. from what i get from a couple of posters in the thread and more who wouldnt dare cross the \'full member girls\' or whatever, I know my points ring true. and the only fault is not replying case by case to old threads, thereby coming off too strong in this particular one.


and that\'s the only thing.

[Irish]

Re: Gender comm pblms

Gender communication style and agendas are only part of the problem, I think. Conversation between the sexes is like talking to someone with a heavy accent - it\'s your language alright, but it\'s distorted and a bit confusing…yet you CAN be understood with some effort and goodwill. The real problem, what we get oh-so frustrated about, lies deeper.

If we believe H. Hendricks, when we are in a relationship we are invariably triggering deep childhood wounds (Hendricks thinks that\'s WHY we were attracted - to recreate the wounding-parent scenario!). If that\'s the case, we are often starting out the \'conversation\' in an agitated emotional state and unconsciously transferring our past like crazy. Even without the discordant conversational styles there\'s gonna be trouble! Add to that the gender-differing talk-modes and expectations, and it\'s a wonder anyone stays together past the first argument.

In fact that\'s Hendricks\' whole counseling strategy - to get couples to realize what\'s going on and to adopt a neutral \'couples discourse\' that allows needs to be aired without argument. Then comes the deliberate healing of wounds old and new…

[**DONOTDELETE**]

He appears to have a lot of trouble understanding a lot of things.

I was not asking for the forum\'s personal support. What I was trying to do was use a personal experience as a way to introduce a topic.

It\'s not arrogance that makes me say your stuff is not worth responding to. I just don\'t know what I could possibly say, because other than the very specific insults, you\'re making vague allusions. \"publicly and privately acknowledged\" what? what are you talking about? again, what did I substantive edits did I make that you now accuse me of lying about? You\'re just name-calling. There is no substance to address.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'m glad you mention forthright and real world experience, implying something about being mature, in the same post you call me a silly a$$ and recommend psychotherapy. Very thoughtful of you.

Like I said, it isn\'t just this one thread. I think what I\'ve laid out, regardless of your initially blowing it off and only now deciding to make your inane commentary, is a serious reason the forum isn\'t what it used to be.


again, the pack mentality. but by failing to reign in your own judgmental self while making that pithy little argument for democracy and composure, congratulations for showing your foolishness and stupidity. until next time..

[**DONOTDELETE**]

you are a real intellectual Hercules, let me tell ya.



will the next follower please stand up, please stand up...

[belgareth]

You evaded the questions. Want to try again? I only have a few minutes before I need to be elsewhere and would appreciate a substantive reply, if you are willing to make one.

[Wolfe]

how many noticed the post i did that was \"10-9-8-7-...\".Wonder why i did that?.Strange how one logged off-the other logged right on.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh, Wolfe, no, I didn\'t understand that. Interesting. But It doesn\'t even matter anymore who he is. He\'s someone who\'s busy tricking us and then gloating.

Irish, whew, no wonder relationships are so hard, if that\'s what we\'re doing, playing out earlier trauma.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Joshua, follower of what or whom?

[Irish]

I can recommend Harville Hendricks\' books, esp. the first, where he lays out his theories. Neo-Freudian, but has a ring of truth to it.

My recent breakup has latent hotbutton issues written all over it, on both her part and (upon retrospection) mine too. She even began to see those things in herself - I had less insight and am just now realizing some deep issues within myself - recurring patterns of frustration about things that should be minor problems.

Maybe I\'ll get this stuff figured out in time to do something about it. Course I\'ve got pheromones now to keep \'em stupidly attracted to me through it all. (I knew I could get back on topic with pheros).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

HA! Good job bringing that around!

Tell me this. What do men do when they have interpersonal stuff they can\'t figure out? Even small things, say, a coworker who drives them crazy. How do men figure things out, or even get them out of their system enough to stop thinking about them, if they don\'t talk them out?

Why do we get so much advice to talk things out, when that\'s not the way men do things and it makes them feel worse?

Young women are being misled, I think. Or at least, I was.

[Irish]

I can\'t speak for my gender, but I can speak for myself.

Talking about a problem (too much) does not make me feel better. It makes me feel worse. I may confide in a buddy on a severe/complex problem, to get his insight - to make sure I see the problem clearly. But not to explore or share my feelings about the situation! It\'s a given I feel like hell or am frightened. If I trumpet that fact, even to a close friend, I project helplessness, weakness, inaction - the antithesis of manhood! I gain no solace by someone understanding my despair or misery - that only makes me ashamed and wounds my masculinity. The only solace I seek is to see a way out of the problem or to get it resolved, and that as quickly as possible. And preferably I should see that solution on my own (if I need others help I am only showing presumed incompetence). I think this is fairly common among men, and esp. American men who embrace the America ideal of \'self reliance\'.

When the problem is so bad as to be insoluble (death, other types of hopeless ruin) men will minimize the problem for their despairing friends. It\'s an act of kindness, to lessen the degree of failure by saying \'it\'s not that bad\'. For example, my friend had a horrible breakup and it was obvious that it was over, and he was devastated. He called me, but couldn\'t really say much about it. He didn\'t have to - we sat together, said maybe 20 words all night, had drinks silently. I was there for him, and that was all that was needed. It would have ruined him for me to explore his loss and his feelings about it in detail - to watch him break down . His despair was obvious to both of us and left unspoken. I helped him by standing with him and minimizing the problem - in this case by openly ignoring it. We became much closer friends after that night.

Men automatically jump to give advice because they are solution-oriented, plus they get to show their superiority by having a solution when others apparently don\'t. This isn\'t just conceit - it\'s what every leader must have, and to be a leader (alpha-male) is another male ideal.

The problem is that men use the same strategy with women, who have different reasons for talking and different expectations. So men can inadvertently offend at times, as I\'ve mentioned before.

Women can do the same to men, e.g. insisting that a man \'open up\' and discuss his feelings. To her that would be a sign of trust and a way to bond closer (how she views \'opening up\'). But he may read the request as an insistence on detailing his failure as a man, a useless shameful exploration of how bad he already feels about his presumed incompetence/impotence.

Sometimes what men mean when they say \'talk things out\' is to confront the person you are having a problem with, and resolve the conflict - at least to functioning levels. So if I\'m having some ongoing beef with a coworker, my boss may tell us to get together and settle it - meaning reach a working compromise that doesn\'t interfere with the group mission. Your personal feelings be damned - figure out a way to quit making waves and move on.

In my world men just don\'t see much value in recounting our emotions about a situation or a person. We\'re expected to jump over the step of how we feel about things and dig right into a solution, preferably without anyone\'s help.

It\'s enough for me to say \'Im pissed!\'…the other guy knows enough then, and his immediate response is typically male action-oriented: \'Oh yeah, whaddya gonna DO about it!?!\' We\'re not really worried about how we or the other guy feels - it\'s there but doesn\'t need to be explored. The outcome is of interest, not the emotional background.

[trejoe]

Well Ill make this short and sweet. I dont understand women Ive tried and I end up with a headache( no disrespect ladies) and I dont think guys were meant to understand ladies but we do the best we can. I talk to ladies and they tell me Im diffrent from most guys and I take it as a compliment because the reason they say this is because I listen and let her talk first rather than butt in every other word. Well I think thats long enough peace!!!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"It would have ruined him for me to explore his loss and his feelings about it in detail - to watch him break down . His despair was obvious to both of us and left unspoken. I helped him by standing with him and minimizing the problem - in this case by openly ignoring it. We became much closer friends after that night.\"

Women are exactly the opposite. A woman\'s best friend, in that situation, would be expected to re-live the entire breakup scenario in rich detail so her friend could experience it with her as viscerally as possible. The woman who had the breakup would seek the chance to break down in trusted company, shed tears, have a fit, analyze every interaction, while seeking reality checks from her friend (has this ever happened to you? did you feel this way when it did? etc.), who would be expected to then admit to similar weaknesses or if the friend had never had a similar experience, at least to show that she completely empathized with the reactions her friend in crises had. Our goal is to merge through total empathy, so that there is no concept of hierarchy or weaker or stronger or better or worse. It\'s not even so much that your friend is with you, it\'s that she IS you, she goes on the whole journey with you and experiences it through you, thereby understands you completely.

So when a guy pulls away in a time of crisis in the relationship, or refuses to talk about something, we can\'t comprehend it. The depth of rejection the woman feels in that case can be profound. And I know for a lot of us, we get very anxious because for a woman in a similar situation, if there\'s no one to empathize and go through it with her, she can\'t come out of it. John Gray\'s good on this, too, about men and their cave -- if a guy withdraws, goes into his cave, leave him alone, you have to leave him alone. It drives the woman who cares about him wild with anxiety because it\'s the very last thing she would want in similar circumstances and it\'s hard to believe that\'s what he could really want -- and even if it is what he wants, and the woman doesn\'t know that that\'s how guys heal best, she thinks he needs to come out and talk because it\'s better for him, otherwise, he will feel worse.

I wish there were more men doing relationship counseling and writing books.

[Irish]

I think the genders are just opposite on this point. We all tend to unconsciously assume others react as we would, and it\'s confusing when they don\'t. Doubt if there\'s a fix other than mutual understanding, and the ability to sense a psychology much different than your own, and not project one\'s own needs and expectations onto another. Easier said than done, I\'ll say.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Impossible if you don\'t know any better!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I sort of had the feeling that -- I don\'t know how to put this -- I\'m not sure from what reading -- but that men had these hidden emotional depths that they were just dying to release and everything would be so much better between men and women if men could just release these hidden emotions.

You guys don\'t seem to hide them, you just express them completely differently and it\'s not just (I\'m getting from this thread) that women\'s way is different from yours, it\'s actually harmful to you.

So this is why men hate the whole \"sensitive man\" thing?

Do men ever get any relief from feeling they have to compete or they have to not show weakness? (Or would it not occur to them to want relief?)

[Wolfe]

i believe i \'showed\' weakness in my admission of the hurt i suffered and the heartbreak that followed, but trust me, woo be unto the man that tryed to tell me i was a pus*y to my face over it.............

[Irish]

Speaking for myself, almost any emotional display (even too much happiness) would imply a lack of self-possession and be something I would be rather ashamed of. To break down in front of a friend would probably be even worse - since it would mean the presumed loss of respect from someone I respect as a friend.

I really don\'t feel the need to explore my emotions with anyone - the emotions are there, but like the shades of lighting on the path I follow - the journey down the path is the vital thing. I gain nothing from sharing my feelings, and probably am ashamed if I do share them with anyone.

I don\'t claim to be typical, but the men in my world seem to behave the same.

[belgareth]

I don\'t know, it may be harmful, from a sociological standpoint. Not from a true physical standpoint though. It can be very difficult to show something you\'ve been taught to repress and have struggle to hide most of your life.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Wolfe, I hope nobody would say such a thing to you.

Irish. It\'s all very interesting. Thanks for the insights, it\'s been very helpful.

[Wolfe]

Red, those that have ever done so have payed the price for it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What\'s the price? What do you mean?

[Wolfe]

ask Bel what he thinks that price would be, he\'s meet me in person and might have a read on me.

[belgareth]

FTR:

You know my training and hobby, right? Wolfe would be a nice person to have watching my backside in the event of trouble. Did that make any sense?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ah, so.

[franki]

@ Joshua and Tounge:

I agree with the fact that a number of the good posters from the past has left and I regret that too. However I see in no way a relation with the appearance of FTR on this board. Like it has always been: People come and go. You can\'t do a lot about it.

Tounge, how can you criticise others, when you have so little informative posts about pheromones of your own?? For \"Joshua\" goes the same... I am sure your posts didn\'t make people come back to this board either, no, quite the opposite, your posts only make them want to leave the forum.

Franki /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Wolfe]

Red did you get my email?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

No. Talk to Bel.

[Wolfe]

me bad, i dropped a p from the addy when i sent it, you should get one soon /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'m still thinking about this stuff. Look at this -- men don\'t think talking is doing anything. It\'s like, talking is not a verb, you\'re not doing anything. That\'s mind boggling. Talking is inaction, so it\'s not worth doing. Men keep each other company by just being near each other. Think about the complaints by women that all her husband ever wants to do is sit and watch tv, and he wants her to sit and watch tv with him, without talking. THAT\'s being company, to him. While, to a woman, it\'s being treated as though she doesn\'t exist. Look at all the couples whose marriages break up when a catastrophe occurs -- I\'m especially thinking of accounts I\'ve read where a couple loses a child -- and then the marriage breaks up, on top of it. The woman\'s heartbroken that the man pulled away from her. In the face of catastrophe, the man couldn\'t do anything but, so his actions were completely misunderstood. Look at when a marriage does get into trouble --the first thing anyone will say is, get counseling. And very often, the man will flat refuse to go, or he\'ll go once and won\'t go again. Why? Because counseling is TALKING. Talking isn\'t doing. Talking about feelings is emasculating. I\'m still tripping on this. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gifAnd speaking of tripping:Joshua. Why do you think you know what I look like? You\'ve mentioned my weight several times. What makes you think I need to go to Jenny Craig? Where is this coming from? The hit from the married attorney -- I did not even see that coming, much less encourage it. We were together in a small elevator and the pheromones worked on him. I\'m sure he was as surprised by it as I was. He\'s one of the finest people I know. I cut the conversation short and moved on. Bruce pointed out he was married. I said yeah, that wouldn\'t necessarily keep me from seeing him, but in this case, I wouldn\'t, because we work in the same field. Because I said something in the hypothetical, I\'ve done something wrong? I\'m bad because a married man hit on me?If I\'m so moralistic, how is it then that you know, because I\'ve said, that I\'ve had a lot of sex in my life, including phone sex, etc. I\'m 46 years old and haven\'t been sitting quietly on the edge of a chair with my feet together and my hands folded in my lap all my life, I would think you would expect some experience from a woman my age. But why would a person who is judgmental about sex talk freely about her own experience and talk freely with other people on a public forum about theirs? Aren\'t you contradicting yourself? What in the world is wrong with phone sex? If I have phone sex with 60 different guys or 100 or 1,000, I\'m still in my own apartment, masturbating! Does that make me bad? Well, who\'s doing all the judging, here? You have yet to tell me what I\'ve lied about. If you\'re going to call me a liar, you should at least be specific about that. And you said something about my having judgmental attitudes toward horny teenaged guys -- that is absolutely untrue. I\'ve been vocal against any kind of ageism many times, saying the teens had as much right to talk as anyone and as much right to have their concerns taken seriously.You\'re threatening me with the Ghostclown thread. Let me help you out, here. It\'s somewhere in the archives, it\'s called Like A Dream, it\'s long and nasty, and it\'s a horrible argument between me and DrSmellThis that really had very little to do with Ghostclown. This is where Joshua\'s stuff about my judgmentalism comes from, I believe. It may not be my finest hour nor the finest hours of the other participants in that whole business, but I\'ve been over that for a long time. You weren\'t even involved, so what\'s it to you anyway? You mentioned I\'ve prohibited people asking questions of DrSmellThis. *I* ask DrSmellThis questions, to this day. How am I getting in the way of anyone else doing it -- how could I? Now. What else do you want to threaten me with. You\'ve given me WAY more attention than I deserve or than anyone\'s interested in. If there\'s more, let\'s get it over and done with.

[Wolfe]

you get that email yet?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, I wrote back.

Sorry my machine won\'t paragraph, despite my best efforts.

[Wolfe]

ok, now i know i have right addy in address book /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[tounge]

First off I\'m not Joshua. This easily can be proven by checking the ISP address. You can track the locales that the posts originate from.

Franki, you are right I don\'t offer a lot of advice to people about pheros. I\'m still experimenting myself and have found that there are way to many varibles to make exact statements. I do enjoy reading other peoples informative opinions on the subject. Even though I pine for the good old days on this forum I know that they are gone forever. And everyday new people join up and ask the same questions. I miss the old stand bys that used to bring informative posts here,
that\'s all.

And no Lucky, I owe no one an apology, Don\'t ask anyone a question if you don\'t want an answer. My 75 or so posts are all out there to see.

[Lucky]

Here\'s the question:

Why would you waste your valuable time writing notes to such losers?

More sarcasm wasted, this time on Tounge.

[upsidedown]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
&gt;&gt;Franki, you are right I don\'t offer a lot of advice to people about pheros. I\'m still experimenting myself and have found that there are way to many varibles to make exact statements. . . . I do enjoy reading other peoples informative opinions on the subject. Even though I pine for the good old days on this forum I know that they are gone forever. And everyday new people join up and ask the same questions. I miss the old stand bys that used to bring informative posts here&lt;&lt; Tounge
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tounge, you see, that pretty much sums up one of the things that irritates me about you. You\'re a self-centered TAKER, not a giver. It\'s all about YOU and what YOU want. You whine about the lack of helpful phero posts and hit stories on the forum, but by your own admission you\'ve contributed very little along those lines in TWO YEARS. So, like I said, you\'re a taker not a giver. Then, if people don\'t provide what YOU are wanting on here, you come on and whine and attack people for not fulfilling YOUR needs.

If I were a betting man, I\'d wager that you probably treat women this way as well. Just a hunch.

[druid]

FTR-I don\'t think men are dying to unleash all their emotions. For me is just the opposite when they seem to almost come up I want to bury them futher down then they were before. Plus I think women just have more emotions and it is probably not feasiable for them to bury them as us men do. And I completely understand what Irish says about men not wanting to show emotion -- because it is a vurnable time, and men want to appear strong. And Wolfe is just showing how most men feel -- \"call me a pu--y to my face and we can settle this with fists\". That pretty much somes it up for us guys.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Druid, it sounds like you\'re right. Do you ever get a flash of what it must be like to be the other sex and be kind of awed at how different we are?

So it\'s not that we\'re the same, and men just supress their emotions. Men maybe don\'t have as much emotionality to begin with, and what they do have makes them uncomfortable to express for many different reasons.

It\'s a difference you can respect without understanding it -- I mean, you never want to force someone to do what makes them uncomfortable -- but it\'s fascinating to get to hear why -- it helps a lot.

[druid]

FTR-no not really. Always consider my self lucky to be a guy. No PMS, no giving birth, and not too much emotion. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

PS-You gonna turn your PM\'s back on?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Druid, that\'s so funny because this conversation made me SO happy and grateful to be a woman and I haven\'t really felt that in a long time, because the physical part of it is such a burden sometimes.

I dunno about the pm\'s just now. I think I\'ll keep them off at least for the weekend.

Thanks for writing on this thread.

[DrSmellThis]

I love Dave Barry\'s Guide to Guys on this topic, when he talks about Elaine.

Men tend to be prejudiced in favor of other men giving guidance on how they should act, perhaps becuse keeping a \"masculine\" approach feels important...Personally I appreciate very much a woman\'s insights on women!

[Elana]

Tounge, you see, that pretty much sums up one of the things that irritates me about you. You\'re a self-centered TAKER, not a giver. It\'s all about YOU and what YOU want. You whine about the lack of helpful phero posts and hit stories on the forum, but by your own admission you\'ve contributed very little along those lines in TWO YEARS. So, like I said, you\'re a taker not a giver. Then, if people don\'t provide what YOU are wanting on here, you come on and whine and attack people for not fulfilling YOUR needs.

If I were a betting man, I\'d wager that you probably treat women this way as well. Just a hunch.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I couldn\'t have said it better. Great post USD! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif Now throw some rotten plums at him.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

DrSmellThis, thanks for writing. I heard a man complain recently that his wife talks about him to her women friends -- about 80 percent of what women talk about is men, I don\'t know if the guys know this, but it\'s true -- and we endlessly compare notes because so much of how men react to things is incomprehensible to us -- and the men can\'t or won\'t explain what\'s going on -- so we get together and at least know we\'re not alone, but what we come up with to explain things to each other is speculation. Sometimes that super-masculine front you guys put on does such a good job that it never occurs to us the problem is that you might feel threatened. Any woman could respect that, I think. We don\'t even consider that as a possibiity (what could possibly threaten my Superman?) and misinterpret -- I\'m thinking of the guy who goes out to the bar with his buddies every night and the wife is hurt he won\'t spend time with her and would rather be with his buddies. If most of what she wants to talk about is threatening, why wouldn\'t he?? And the whole time she\'s \"working on the marriage\" and trying her hardest to \"communicate.\" The harder she works, the more she\'s pushing him away. So she ends up talking to her girlfriends. Which pisses the man off because they\'re always \"bitching\" together, she\'s always \"bitching\" about him. Mostly it\'s not that, we\'re just trying to find our way. I walked by two women on a park bench talking and caught snatches of their conversation and it was the exact same stuff I had just been talking to one of my girlfriends about regarding men, and that blew me away. ALL OF US, we\'re wandering in the dark, why is it so hard? A little information is a good thing. The degree to which men apparently see things as a contest just would never ever occur to a woman. And I guess since women are they way they are when they bond, women think that when they bond with men, men will want a similar relationship, when the fact is, you don\'t, and it\'s not because you don\'t care. Off to look for Dave Barry on Elaine. Meanwhile, guys -- how do you show you care? What are we supposed to be looking for, in the absence of words? Oh, Jesus Christ. I can\'t cut and paste -- go to Google and type in Dave Barry Elaine. Priceless.

[tounge]

It\'s a good thing you fools don\'t bet. I take nothing in life. I earn it. You don\'t know me. You don\'t know my charitable activities. You don\'t know what civic and community services I perform. You know nothing of my relationships with the women in my life.

I readily admit I don\'t bring forth much information about Pheros. I believe they can be of help, but they are not magic in a bottle. I only give advice where I think I can be of help. I do quite a bit more reading here than posting. Sort of like you are given two ears and one mouth. More people need to follow along that line.

As far as attacking people, that is another BS rap. I defend myself. I was the first to offer my condolences to Exit on the loss of his job. Then Krtel posts that the Republicans cost him his job. I asked him what the Republicans had to do with it, and said he was talking out of both sides of his ass. He responded by calling me names and not doing anything to defend his statement. Then it turned into a pissing contest until Bruce put a stop to it.

Then Elana made a comment that was degrading to men. I called her on it and she went in to attack and insult mode. I got into a pissing contest wth her and then I quit wasting my time with her.

My posts are all on record here. Only one time I complained that an interesting topic was highjacked off topic by silly flirtation.

Then I read a post where Cpl whoever was musing aloud. He posted that he thought I was an a**hole. He is certainly is entitled to his opinion. But I called him on it. The result, more attacks.

So the next time you decide to be high and mighty about passing judgement,look in the mirror and remove the plank from your own eye.

This joint is a small part of my internet time and lately is is becoming unproductive. I will continue to read posts to expand my knowledge of Pheros but for the most part I\'m am only going to post when I have a pertinent question. And unlike some people here, I stick to my word.

And keep in mind that my name was brought into this thread by none other than Elana. I had no desire to participate in this. Some of you people accuse me of being someone else. I can assure you I\'m not. But it is pretty damn smug of you high flutents to think that nobody else disagrees with you people on issues and other things. When they make their opinions known, the hive goes into attack mode.

[Elana]

Let\'s see Tounge...what was the comment that I made that was degrading to men? I think this was what I said....

\"Oh please...5 or 6 things on the list? In most cases a woman just has to be breathing and the men will come running to her.\" /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

THAT WAS A JOKE! Anyone who has read anything from me knows that I LOVE MEN! I am not a male basher and have never been. You got NASTY! You were mean, obnoxious and cruel and it was all over a little friendly teasing.

As for your comments to Krtel...I remember them all too well. Again you went on the attack. You have every right to argue a different view point, but you got personal. You started the personal attacks. The same goes for the other instances you brought up.

Was I serious about Joshua being you? No, I was not. Would you like me to clear that issue up? I don\'t think Joshua is you, but it really doesn\'t matter. The two of you are one in the same as far as I am concerned. You appear to hate women, complain and whine and search out fights.

[krtel]

FTR,

I\'m someone who loves to express my emotions, especially with someone as close as a gf. However, I\'ve started expressing my emotions less &amp; less over time. I\'ve learned that I only lose points with girls if I show any sign of weakness. The problem isn\'t always the guy\'s fault.

It\'s like asking for people\'s opinions. If I asked someone once and slammed them because I didn\'t like their opinion, they will be very reluctant to express their opinion to me the next time.

This is just the case for me. I truly understand your viewpoint though, and even with my inexperience in relationships, I\'ve learned from others that communication has to be the most important factor to keep things going.

- Krish

[krtel]

Here\'s a quarter - call me and remind me to care.

- Krish

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh, no, good God, it\'s not the guy\'s fault alone. I\'m getting to see more and more the part the woman plays in the communcation breakdown. I just didn\'t know. I bet a lot of women just don\'t know some of this stuff.


What kind of \"weakness\" are you talking about that you got bad results from, if you wouldn\'t mind saying, or relating an incident?

[krtel]

From my experience, it\'s ok for women to be emotional and it will be accepted among everyone. I\'ve had girls cry on my shoulder, and I don\'t try to \"fix\" things for them, but I just listen, and try my best to comfort them.

However, when a guy is emotional, it simply isn\'t accepted among anyone because it\'s \"expected\" we that we be strong and express no possible sign of weakness. Women will perceive me as weak and won\'t even give me the time of day if I express any form of sadness, frustration, hopelessness, or uncertainty. It\'s like they lose faith or trust in you because now that I\'ve expressed my emotions (which changes their perception of me to weak.) I guess they don\'t feel safe or protected. For this reason, I NEVER express any form of emotion to anyone (not even love.) in reality unless I feel absolutely comfortable that they won\'t think any differently of me. For me, it\'s rare to find anyone like that, but they do exist, and I just let it pass me up.

- Krish

[upsidedown]

In response to Tounge.

First, let me respond to your statement that Elana made a comment that was putting down men. Let\'s see, how shall I say this.....TOUNGE, YOU\'RE THE ONLY PERSON WHO DIDN\"T GET THE JOKE!! You don\'t seem to have any sense of humor. I don\'t think you\'d recognize a joke, humor or irony if it bit you on the nose. (That\'s a joke BTW Tounge. Jokes, humor and irony can\'t literaly bite anybody on the nose.) Anybody that\'s done any reading on this forum recognizes that Elana is crazy about men and is in no way a male basher. When I read her comment, to me it seemed that this was her way of showing her fondness for us guys being the way we are. Lighten up!.

Now, as to your response to Krtel...I remember that thread very vividly. You see, I too was offended by his remark about Republicans being responsible for the job loss, because I\'m a Republican myself. But, I was totally embarassed to admit having any similarity to your political beliefs after you responded to Krtel the way you did.. Krtel is a young guy, and I felt his remarks were out of line. A more mature person could have cahallenged him on his remarks with facts and reasoning, as many mature people on here do from time to time. But, you attacked him with vulgar name calling. Yes tounge, you did the name calling FIRST! You didn\'t act very mature with your response, and in return made yourself look less mature than Krtel.

It doesn\'t matter tounge. You are how you are, and you seem to be happy with that. We\'re not going to change you, and it\'s not possible for us to all chip in to buy you a humor or personality transplant. But, we can at least continue to respond to your remarks like we\'ve been doing when we feel you\'re out of line.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

krtel, I\'ve kind of stopped having an agenda for how the guy is supposed to act. Women are taught there is supposed to be this guy who comes along and he acts this way and that way, and the script\'s all in our head, just waiting to be fulfilled ... and it doesn\'t happen. Then with age and wisdom comes, oh, this script is keeping me from being able to really see and enjoy who this person is! and of course once you stop expecting certain reactions or even depending on getting certain reactions for your happiness, things get easier. I\'m not bothered at all by a guy being sad, uncertain, emotional in any way, unless he\'s lost in it and can\'t get up and get going, if that makes sense. And I\'ve stopped expecting or wanting a guy to be emotional if he isn\'t. What I\'ve never understood is why a guy would get mad because I was emotional. Now I get it.

What about when you\'re physical with a woman? Do you feel like you can express love then, non-verbally?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What Tounge and Joshua seemed to me to have in common was the idea that the men get to talk here about anything they want, but the women should shut up unless they\'re agreeing with the guys. Joshua came right out and said it in this thread -- but it\'s been said many times in many ways all throughout, guys saying they wished we\'d \"go to the women\'s forum\" as if we\'re being sent to our room ... guys talking about sex or women\'s body parts, but if we do it, we\'re whores or transvestites ... guys who are blatantly, constantly critical of women as a species, so to speak ... to go back to the fact that it\'s Bruce\'s forum, he made us a place here, we\'re invited here, and as much as the guys might not like it and wish it was the He-Man-Woman-Hater\'s Club, that\'s not reality. The more the guys try to \"put us in our place,\" the more inclined we are to get up in your face and prove we won\'t tolerate it. If as many guys got called fags as we got called whores and whatnot, there\'d be some serious hell to pay. The women here have to deal with a lot of crap verging on abuse sometimes and we get tired of it. And Tounge, you seem to have real short appreciation or respect (and I don\'t mean being obsequious, I mean just basic respect as a person) for women just because they\'re women, whether you like their viewpoints or not. Maybe I\'m getting you all wrong, but that\'s my strong impression. I remember that politics thread, too, not the particulars, but that you stomped all over someone who hadn\'t done anything that I could see to provoke it, it was this blast of meanness out of nowhere. It\'s been more than one or two threads.

[krtel]

I would never get angry at a woman if she is emotional. Actually, if she was, I\'d find it easier for myself to open up to her over time rather than with another woman who acts stuck up and expresses absolutely no emotion.

I don\'t have the experience to answer your last question in full depth and accuratly, but I\'ll try my best:

Because of the details of my childhood (I rather not go into detail.) I fall in love easily because I strongly desire it. When I say love, its not necessarily in a romantic sense. However, I grew up without it, but have felt it a couple of times here and there. So at first, I expressed it very easily, without any knowledge of how vulnerable I was making myself, and when I finally did realize, it wasn\'t anything pretty. I stopped. So to answer your question, when I get physical with a woman, such as hugging or holding her, I do feel like I might be able to express love to her because at that point, I feel comfortable with her, however, that comfort would have to build up over time. It wouldn\'t happen for me over night.

- Krish

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Right, I see what you\'re saying. You used to get crushes easily and you\'d let your crush know the force of your feelings early on and they\'d be overwhelmed. I used to, too. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif It comes with experience, the timing thing. It\'s probably better in the long run to wait a little before the \"I love you\'s\" start, like you\'re saying (if I have you right).

[krtel]

Yeah, I think ya have me right, lol. That sounds like the old me. Now I\'m very selective when I tell people I love them. I haven\'t told it to anyone in a couple of years. A lot of times I actually do feel it, I just won\'t tell. For a while, I was actually starting to think something was wrong with me. :\\

- Krish

[upsidedown]

Wow, almost 6 hours since a post in this thread. That\'s got to be close to a record.

Maybe that means this thread is finally fizzling out..........nah, who\'m I kidding.

[DrSmellThis]

OK, FTR. I have consulted the Guy Buddha; and delivered the Oracle\'s words in the form of a new thread. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[seadove]

Oh my Gosh FTR
20 pages of Ginger bread !!! And all in two days?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

*blush*

[seadove]

And Why can\'t I PM you?
problem?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I turned pm\'s off for a little while. Just needed a break.

[upsidedown]

Hey Krtel.

Krish, I reread my response to Tounge a few posts previous to this one. After reading it again, I feel it might have sounded a bit like I was putting you down. Sorry about that. No offense was intended, and I didn\'t mean it to sound like I was taking a jab at you either. My apologies for not being more careful with how I worded my post.

[krtel]

Hey,

No problem at all mate. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif I had to read it a couple of times, and I figured ya didn\'t mean anything offensive.

It was also never my intention to offend you (and anyone else.) either with my opinion on republicans in the post where me and \"tounge\" went at it. So, my apologies /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif.

Thanks for the thought!

- Krish

[upsidedown]

No problem. Thanks.

[bundyburger]

FTRH,
Thanks for starting this thread. I learnt something today that may have taken another twenty years if you hadn\'t.

It has just opened up a whole new level of understanding that has explained so much. I had no idea that what I thought was the right thing to do, to find a solution and to try and help, was THE problem all along.

It comes down to the simple fact that I wasn\'t \'listening\'. And it\'s not necasarily \'listening\' in the literal (hearing/sound) sense either.

You said ...\"Every time you butt in, it\'s a piece of her heart. The more you keep on, the more you push her away.\"

That\'s exactly what I did. I never \'Butt In\' rudely but in way I do. That\'s contradicting itself I know but \'I\' know what I mean. And I didn\'t necessarily butt in during a conversation. I butted in between conversations too. /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

It\'s not just that. Between you and Irish you have just made me feel better about myself and what happened with my last girlfriend. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

It\'s a pity a couple of jerks cut in and ruined the flow of this thread, as it was probably the most important thing to learn about men/woman I\'ve seen in sooo long, if not ever.

I want to know more. Really.

[Wolfe]

bb, how old are you?

[bundyburger]

28.

Ok... Just updated my profile a little bit too. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thank you so much for the validation and I hope it does save you pain.

[Wolfe]

should serve you well, you\'ve learned something most don\'t learn till way to late in life(IF they ever do at all)