Comments on the cloned baby by the raelians.

[Watcher]

Ok well it has apparently according to media reports been done, we can now copy ourselves and have exact copies of ourselfs (younger of course) running around.
The interesting thing is, is its a UFO worshipping organisation that has been involved in this.
Im just waiting for more news before i comment to far on this.

[upsidedown]

A copy of myself?

I\'d never, ever wish that on ANYBODY....let alone force it on a helpless kid. /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif

[Watcher]

Yeah the lifelong stigma associated with being the first. And it is a bit out there, i say the whole thing is a hoax anyway to draw attention to this UFO Cult fringe group.
Although it points to the future of genetic engineering future offspring to have certain traits as well.
The major religions are all against it, and the science community is split saying it has no real value to the biological sciences apart from that it can be done.

[upsidedown]

I don\'t believe that this group actually did it either. I just think this particular incident is an effort for publicity...or maybe a scam to get money.

Regardless, someone out there is in the process of cloning, or is going to actually clone someone eventually.

What bothers me as much as the idea of people trying to do it is the fact that there seems to be so many people out there wanting to have themselves cloned. I just don\'t understand that mindset. It just seems the height of egotism to me. But, that\'s just me.

[abductor]

Perhaps copy of yourself is a bad idea, Jambat had many poblems to kill him copies.
Now serious, I do not believe that is truth, but if is true, the authorities must take some attitude, after all I think that human clone is forbidden by law in almost countries.

[Wolfe]

ok, heres my read on this, like it or not cloning IS gonna happen so fighting it is useless. that leaves us asking what to do about it now and IMHO we need to \'control\' it as best as we can. that means doing it, like it or not. Some1 is gonna do it and we need to understand what it is thier doing, only way to do that is to do it ourselves (meaning in the USA where it IS banned) The reason i say this is simple. somewhere, somehow it WILL be done, and many of those wanting to do it are some of our BEST researchers and if we stop them from doing it here in OUR country they will simple go where they can do it..now, do we REALLY want our best leaving for somewhere else??..

[CptKipling]

Human cloning is a VERY bad idea.

\"Hi mum,\" says Sarah, \"what day this week was it that my first period will come?\"

\"So my hair definately won\'t stay this colour?\"

Most probably a lie. Its abominable, the first cloned animals had huge defects, some were even inside out. You know Dolly the sheep? She developed many ailments commonly associated with old age very prematurely.

[Wolfe]

i didn\'t say it was right, or that i agreed with it, simple stated that it\'s gonna happen rather we like it or not and i hate to see our best researchers leave the country for any reason.

[Elana]

Cloning people creeps me out, however, I am all for organ cloning if it can help save lives.

[druid]

It figueres that those \"raelian\" jack-offs would make the announcement from hollywood fl (that is where I live) There are so many weirdos here, they have the \"Weirdo, crazies, and drunks\" convention here in hollywood.

Personally I think cloning is wrong for one simple reason, there are too many people on this planet. And if we have ever have some shortage of people, well lets take care of it the old fashion way. I volunteer myself for a few rounds of duty /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Though personally I would get some through enjoyment out of some 18 y/o sharkria, j-lo, and brittany spears clones. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Elana]

<Though personally I would get some through enjoyment out of some 18 y/o sharkria, j-lo, and brittany spears clones.>

We\'ve got plently of them already here in South Florida.

[druid]

well bring on the clones /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[belgareth]

Wolfe is right, cloning is going to happen and we need to be there to help keep it on the right track. Anybody remember when abortion was illegal almost everywhere in the US? If you were rich, you went to another country to get one, if you were poor, you found a back street doctor (butcher) to do it for you. Do you have any idea how many young girls bled to death, developed terrible infections or were unable to ever concieve again because we were so short-sighted?

Much like the drug war, people are going to do it whether it is legal or not. I don\'t believe this cult group\'s claim, but I do believe it will happen soon. In our best interest, we have a need to assure that cloning is done in a reasonable and ethical manner. We can only do that by making it legal and monitoring it.

[CptKipling]

Wolfe my post wasnt a stab at you, it wasnt posted when I replied. I think you made some good points. We cant jsut hide from the problem.

Organ cloning on the other hand is looking very promising. iirc they have already grown a heart.

[Wolfe]

tis sad this day(cloning) had to even come about thats true enough and didnt mean to sound like i was upset with you on your reply to the subject.
But one thing i\'ve learned in life

Stick your head in the sand
Somebodys gonna shoot you\'re ass off. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Now, I like that. That\'s good.

[frenchie]

Cloning human beings is a silly idea invented by scientists who don\'t know what to do to be famous and rich... On an ethical point of view, I can\'t agree with it.
I heard this french woman (I feel sorry to be french today !) talk on tv. She is one of those Frankenstein-like \"scientists\" and said the raelians were criticised and treated \"like the Jews during the last world war\"...
But, as Wolfe says, we\'ll have to do with it, unfortunately...

Some day nature will win. Nature always wins ! :-)

Frenchie

[CptKipling]

Cloning could have usefull applications, like organ replacement (no more waiting lists), and stem cells. But allong come a bunch of people taking it too far.

I\'m unclear on this point, why did they actually do it? Was it firtility treatment?

[Mtnjim]

\"Cloning could have usefull applications, like organ replacement (no more waiting lists), and stem cells.\"

Not too long ago I saw an article (some science journal) that showed scientists had successfully grown a (replacement) human ear on a mouse\'s back.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, it gives me the creeps ... but ... (cringe, don\'t hit me) what\'s unethical or wrong or any more unnatural than in vitro or surrogate mothers or the rest of the weird sh*t people are doing who are desperate to have kids ... why is cloning worse?

[upsidedown]

Well, in vitro and surrogate mothers are producing new and unique individuals. They still essentially crate a new child that is a product of a mother and father....a unique new child.

In cloning, you essentially remove the uniqe properties of the potential new human, and instead are recreating a person who has already existed....same DNA and all.

One of the big problems I have initially is that all the bugs have not been worked out. Most likely, cloned children are going to be faced with massive health problems, and probably pre-mature death. Why is having a carbon copy of somebody else so neccesary to place such hardships on the new cloned person? If it\'s going to be done, at least get all the bugs worked out with animals before trying it on humans.

I do see a real need for cloned organs, but that\'s not the same as a completely cloned person. Why do we need clones...to what end? They may share the same DNA as the original, but it\'s not going to be the original person.

That\'s just my initial take. It\'s all too new for me to completly understand all the ramifications of it though.

[Whitehall]

Call me old-fashioned, but I never found anything lacking in the classic method of making babies.

Both parties usually enjoyed the process, one could make reasonable guesses as to the outcome, and there was always hope for improvement. Plus, it only took two people and neither had to wear a white coat. No supplies needed. On the big picture scale, it sure seems to work given world overpopulation.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I so agree. But people who want their own children and can\'t have them will go to any lengths to get them. If nothing else works, there\'s cloning. Which reproduces DNA, but ... even though it looks exactly like the person it was cloned from, a clone is its own person.

I\'m not saying I\'m for it, mind you. I\'m just asking, is the uproar really just because it\'s new? Like we were all grossed out at in vitro and now it\'s commonplace. Or it is here. I know several female attorneys who had in vitro just because they didn\'t want to fool with the time it took to entertain a man, but wanted a child.

[upsidedown]

>>But people who want their own children and can\'t have them will go to any lengths to get them. If nothing else works, there\'s cloning. <<

Well, I\'m not an expert, and someone may correct me. But, I don\'t believe cloning has ANYTHING to do with helping people who can\'t have children. In those cases, invitro and the other things are valid proceedures for them. But, my understaning is that in cloning they are taking a viable healthy egg from a person who is able to having children, cleaning out its genetic material, and replacing it with the DNA of the person they want to clone.

So, in essence I don\'t believe the argument about cloning as a means to help those who can\'t have children any other way applies here. It\'s more a situation of people who CAN have children other ways just wanting a clone of another person for some unknown, and in my view warped reason.

One situation I\'ve heard of it being considered is people lose a small child in death. Instead of having another healthy baby they want to replace the dead child with a clone instead of letting nature run it\'s course with a new child. Well, even if the cloned child looks like their lost child, it\'s still not that lost child. It\'s just a carbon copy, but still a different person.

Anyway, that\'s my understanding of it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Orgy-Porgy /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

I had a slightly different understanding, not quite so macabre. I thought it was for people who couldn\'t have children any other way, not even in vitro (there are such people).

Making a copy of someone is ... weird. Incomprehensible.

[upsidedown]

One other thing I\'ve heard about cloning that I might add. But, I\'ve heard that a man is totally unnecessary in the process. His sperm is not needed. Replacing the genetic material in the woman\'s egg with outside DNA fertilizes the egg in some way that I don\'t really understand.

So, essentially it\'s possible that men could become totally useless in the reproductive process someday. Men could theoretically totally disappear from the face of the eath, and women could still conceive through the cloning process.

Sounds like some weird Sci-Fi scenario to me. Beam me up Scotty!

[Lucky]

RE: even though it looks exactly like the person it was cloned from, a clone is its own person.

That\'s what I\'m waiting for; to see the differences in character in the cloned person from the original person. I want to see just how much our environment and the values of our society really mean to our outcomes as humans.

As far as the question of it being morally correct goes, it\'s not going to stop it now - legal or not. It\'s science. Period.

[Tim]

Lucky, identical twins are genetically identical. There\'s the natural way of seeing nurture vs. nature. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Gerund]

Even identical twins raised together can have widely varying characteristics -- as much as 4\" difference in final adult height, markedly different IQ scores, etc.

So the question is: If genetics (nature) are identical, and growth environment (nurture) is identical, what remains to account for obvious differences?

There\'s lots we don\'t know yet.

[Tim]

Well, you could attribute those differences to exercise, nutrition, etc.. Because even being raised similarly isn\'t *the same.* But I wonder if that covers all the bases.. hm.

[belgareth]

As I understand it, you do not need a male to create a female but would need one to create a male. But, you must have a female to create a male. So, yes, the male could become obsolete.

An issue they discovered with Dolly is that they cloned an animal that was already mature. The genetic errors that crop up during the aging process were inherent in the clone. The baby had the older genes of a mature animal. Before cloning to make babies could become a reality they would have to overcome that issue.

Cloning to replace a person who has died is just weird IMHO. You\'ll never get that person back unless you somehow could make a recording of their every thought and experience then insert it into the clone. It does sound awfully Sci-fi, doesn\'t it?

The basic research is the important part. If one day, I needed a new liver, having one tailor made for me would be ideal. Or having the genetic knowledge to make humans cancer proof. There are many horrible deseases that could be cured or prevented through the use of genetics.

The important point is to regulate cloning and genetic research so that scientists can learn how to use this technology to our betterment.

[EXIT63]

...One other thing I\'ve heard about cloning that I might add. But, I\'ve heard that a man is totally unnecessary in the process. His sperm is not needed...

...As I understand it, you do not need a male to create a female but would need one to create a male. But, you must have a female to create a male. So, yes, the male could become obsolete...

And therein lies the dirty secret. This whole thing is being driven by the politically correct stormtroopers and the man hating NOUW. (National Organization of Ugly Women).

It is their FINAL SOLUTION, shall we say!

[druid]

exit63, I agree. Go read \"the myth of male power\". I only read few pages of it in the bookstore and it was very enlighting. If you think this is a man\'s world, you need to think again.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh, good lord.

[druid]

well maybe extishing men permently would be a bit far. Maybe they will keep us around for stud services (and to cut the grass, change oil in the car, stuff like that). I wouldn\'t mind that!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Whitehall]

This is a scientific question - why sex?

Life got along pretty fairly before sex was invited but why did Nature go to all the trouble of making gender?

Cloning is just a form of asexual reproduction. Most parasites (including disease organisms) reproduce asexually. By going to sexual reproduction, we\'ve gained the chance to change genetically more rapidly.

Cloning throws all that away and for what?

As to men becoming useless, as I pointed out, just wait until the next war. Or, think of two cultures, one without men and one with men and women. Pretty soon, the one with men will invade and impregnate the women who try to reproduce asexually.

[CptKipling]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

the one with men will invade and impregnate the women who try to reproduce asexually

<hr></blockquote>
lol
Those would be some lucky men!

Imagine the title, Impregnator In Chief...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Lucky women, you mean!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, i\'m new here, but i\'ll add my 2 cents worth on the cloning issue:
This idea, while it may have its merits to some people, appears to me to be a can of worms once it\'s opened. For example, with all of the crazy governments on this planet, what\'s to stop say, the Chinese from sterilizing \"undesirable\' males and females and cloning enough men to provide millions of additional soldiers, or perhaps peasants for slave-type labor? The same for the Iraqis, Iranians, North Koreans, etc. What if the folks in the Manson family want to clone Charlie; surely they could get a DNA sample if that\'s what they needed to do. Or, let\'s say someone wants to start a new cult such as \"Jonestown?\" Where\'s this thing gonna end? In the hands of the wrong deranged group it may be as big of a nightmare as nukes or bio-terrorism.
As far as men disappearing any time soon, i don\'t think it\'s gonna happen. Just look at MSNBC\'s website today. There\'s any article there about the selling of young women and girls in Eastern Europe to the underworld for prostitution. These women were duped into thinking that they were escaping poverty and their desperate future for the promise of good jobs in Western Europe. These women are pure slaves who would kill to go back home, or even have a nice, decent man that would love and care for them. They can\'t afford to have cloning or in-vitro or whatever else is available out there in the way of genetic engineering. Also, look at Latin America\'s problems, especially Colombia and Venezuela. A lot of women from those places are begging to come to the United States in the hope of a better life and the possibility of a family, etc. They can barely afford the basics of life as it now stands, and they certainly won\'t be candidates for the cloning list.
I think that all of this cloning business can get really ugly in a hurry.

[belgareth]

just wait until the next war
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I can think of very few things more terrifying than an all woman army.

[Wolfe]

I can..a all woman army PMS\'ing

[belgareth]

No kidding. I live in a household where I am the only man. They\'ve all syncronized their cycles. So about five days of the month, I am better off to go stay in a motel.

Now can you picture half a million of them?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That\'s right.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[Wolfe]

Naw..n/p ,simply drop a case of energizers and couble 1000 BoBs amoung them and then spray them with -mones, they be to busy to fight then /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[druid]

what would be even sacrier would be if cloning fell into the hands of the the big greedy corpations that run this country (the US). I personally think we should not clone anyone. We already have too many people and not enough resources.

[Watcher]

ANother use is for rulers of dictatorships to try and reproduce themselves so they have a line of descendants that are copies of themselves (saddam husieen anyone).
Im sure there are many more pressing issues with genetic engineering like custom made babies with certain charter trains and like blue eyes dark hair made to order.