Need some relationship advice...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s past 10:00pm...and I don\'t know where to turn to for advice. I need some input...

So there\'s this girl...I\'ve known her for about half a year...I am/was crazy about her...but more importantly, I thought we were very good friends. Over the last couple months, our relationship grew much closer. We talked more...about everything. We spent a lot of time together. If she was bored, it was me who she wanted to chat with on over the pc. If she needed someone on the other line of a phone, it was me who she called. And it was me who she wanted to spend time with in person. Her attention was intoxicating. She would constantly give me a hug or hold my hand or grab my arm. If we were sitting next to eachother somewhere, she would always lay her head on my shoulder. The attraction was mutual and both of us were aware of it...

Our relationship never got overly physical...no sex or kissing...not a boyfriend/girlfriend sort of thing. We had talked about it and she said she just wasn\'t looking for that type of relationship right now.

But now I\'m confused...

Over the last two weeks, our relationship has regressed sooooo much. Sometimes, I got the impression that we weren\'t even very good friends. So I asked her what was wrong, or if I had done something to upset her. She assured me everything was fine. I didn\'t believe her but what could I have done?

Soon after, she started spending a lot of time with this other guy. And I noticed that, around him, she acted the way she used to act around me. I was a bit jealous but tried to hide it...apparently, I didn\'t hide it very well. She must have noticed because she told me that he was no one...there was no attraction...that the guy was just a friend, like a \"brother\" to her. So...stupid me, thinking we were at the very least friends, assumed she was telling the truth.

Then I glimpsed them kissing.

She doesn\'t know I saw.

So there it all is. She isn\'t attracted to me afterall/anymore. And that sucks ass. That totally depresses me. But you know what really breaks my heart? That she lied. To me, it feels as if she\'s broken a trust of friendship. I never lie to my real friends about anything. Why would she lie to me? What\'s going on? What went wrong? Was it me? Or do I just have \"schmuck\" plastered on my forehead?

I told her to meet me tomorrow morning...which isn\'t unusual. She suspects nothing. I\'m thinking of confronting her about the deception(s).

Is that a bad idea? Help...I don\'t know what I\'m doing...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

daven,

go to www.askmen.com (\"http://www.askmen.com\") and read doc loves column. i suggest you put the confrontation off and start reading as soon as you can.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

which article am i looking for? there sure are a lot of articles...the archives just keep going on and on...

what do you think i should do? just forget about her lies and her hidden relationship? i don\'t understand...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'ll try. I think the key is your sentence, \"Her attention was intoxicating.\" You\'re having a love jones, suffering withdrawal from the intoxication of her attention. Part of the pain feeling and the anxiety feeling is chemical. Being stroked and loved brings on chemical changes in your body and to have those chemicals suddenly not occurring makes you go through withdrawal just exactly like if you\'d been on heroin. What do I think happened? I don\'t know. From what you\'ve written, she sounds young and confused and maybe a little fickle. The way she handled herself has made you unhappy. What are you going to say to her, should you confront her? Yeah. Maybe something like, I\'m hurt that you\'ve withdrawn your affection and attention from me and I need to know if there\'s anything I\'ve done, or are you just a fickle lying bitch? Little comic relief. Somebody jump in, here, and paste the link to the How Do You Mend A Broken Heart thread. How old are you and how old is she? That\'s an important piece of information. When you feel a little better maybe would be a good time to talk about how to handle women in the future. If you can manage it, try to maintain cool when you talk to her tomorrow. Just casually interested, by the way, what\'s up with you? I saw you kissing that guy. Does that mean we\'re not friends anymore, or -- what\'s going on? and you can probably take some satisfaction in watching her stumble around. I swear to god, it doesn\'t mean anything damning about you, though. Maybe there are things you\'d choose to do differently next time around, maybe not, but in any case, I\'m sure you don\'t have any invisible-to-you-but-flashing-neon-to-everyone-else sign on your forehead. This stuff happens to the best of us. Write back.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

you are in the LJBF category.

when you get to the website, do to the \"dating & love\" section.

down below the first divider, you will see \"doc Love\" archives. start reading.

fiddler

[**DONOTDELETE**]

basically, do not listen to her words. words LIE.

actions don\'t. also since you were hanging around her whenever she wanted and used whenever she wanted, you were the crutch. we\'ve all been there before. learn what women want. or else you will just get used, again and again.

I hate to say this but you were available all the time, and was simpy not interesting, not as a b/f. that is what you want right?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

She was interacting with you the way girls interact with other girls. What you experienced is what close girl friendships are like. Breathtakingly close sometimes, very talky, very affectionate.


Boyfriend/girlfriend there has to be more distance in order for there to be enough room for a spark to jump. Does that make sense? So part of it is what fiddler said - being a little (or, a lot) less available.


I highly recommend, next time (and there will be a next time) a girl strikes you this way, before you get too involved with her, evaluate her. Young guys tend to get wrapped up in girls and not really look at who they\'re dealing with. WHy do you like this girl? BECAUSE SHE LIKES *MEEE*!! and that\'s all they need to know about her except maybe that she\'s \"hot.\"

So part of it is about maintaining a little more distance.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

ok...i admit, it may be an age issue. i\'m 22, she\'s 19. for what it\'s worth, i believe myself to be pretty mature if not overly experienced. and in the time i\'ve know this girl, i got the constant impression she was relatively mature for her age until just recently.

i definately feel some withdrawl...that i know.

what am i thinking of saying to her? something along the lines of:

\"i just want to make sure we\'re ok...i know you said everything is ok with us before but you act so differently around me lately...blah blah blah.\"

then somehow throw in a: \"does it have anything to do with that other guy?\"

i really want to give her an opportunity to come clean. if she doesn\'t come clean...then i haven\'t decided if i want to expose her lie. and i really am curious if we\'re still friends...she\'s be pretty distant lately and i\'m still stunned that she would lie to me. we had been so intimately honest about everything and anything before. i mean, if there was anything worth sharing...any news at all...urgrent or trivial...we would always go to eachother first. i was sure that if nothing else we were at least the closest of friends.

my brain hurts...i don\'t understand females...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

you are close friends, that\'s the problem. don\'t bother confronting her with it. when you do that you show your insecurity and neediness both are NOT sexy, makes you even further from b/f material. since you have been very close to her, she is to you too. you were always available. be unavailable. talk to her less, don\'t be there all the time. don\'t hang out. let her feel a little withdrawl and see what happens. if she comes to you then reel her in slowly, very slowly, like you got a 10 lb line on a 100 lb fish. otherwise you will be playing out the same pattern over again. she may even lose more respect for you. If you are as close as you say, i guarantee she will feel it too. she may not say it, may not even admit it but she wants a man not a guy girlfriend. so pull back slowly. be nice. start reading like i told you to.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i really felt like i took a step back and evaluated her before committing any of my time to her. i half cast aside 2 other girls that seemed to show some interest for this girl. i mean, he had shared values, same religious background, similar sense of humor, similar career goals, ect.

hmmm...i don\'t know...maybe i was just a \"girlfriend\" to her? though it didn\'t seem like it...or maybe i didn\'t want it to seem like it?

so next time...there has to be distance?

but what about right? with this girl? so...im guessing i screwed up too much and she has no interest in me. but can i mend the friendship? why did she lie to me? am i making a big deal out of nothing?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

here\'s the thing about the being friends thing...

the guy she\'s dating or whatever behind my back...well, he was just a friend. they\'ve known eachother longer than i\'ve known the girl. they didn\'t spend too much time together until recently. but it wasn\'t because of the guy...he was always trying to get with her. but for whatever reason, she never spent time with him...she was always around me.

blah...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You said the two of you were close and affectionate -- did you do anything sexual at all? French kiss? Mess around a little? 19 is young and if the other guy just kissed her, why would she stop him? She\'s not married to you. And you\'re giving her all the power. Is everything all right? Do you still like me? Do you like that other guy better? Um. What does the physical evidence suggest? Look at it. Is she spending time with you? no. Is she spending time with him. Yes. So why do you get on the phone and ASK her to tell you what\'s going on? What\'s going on is, she\'s spending time with him and not with you. Why? Because that\'s what she wants. She\'s thinking, jesus, I can tell him anything. Whatever I tell him reality is, that\'s what it is, apparently. I rule his world. Ok. Next!I believe you\'re mature and asking your age wasn\'t about your maturity level, just trying to get some feel maybe for experience. It\'s also true that things end, sometimes before you\'re ready for them to, and it\'s just like that.Why did she lie? Probably because she didn\'t know how to say to you, I\'m glad you brought this up. I do like this other guy. I want to be with him sometimes. If that means you don\'t want to be with me anymore, I understand. or whatever. It could be because she just didn\'t know how. fiddler\'s giving you good advice. And for my part, I\'m sorry you invested so much and feel so cheated and I don\'t think you\'re making a big deal out of nothing, not at all. If you want to compete with the other guy, and it sounds like at least in theory, you could, you\'re gonna have to get some new strategies, though. They will involve a lot of self control. Like sitting there watching her number on the caller id and refusing to pick up even though you want to and it\'s killing you. You have to make her work for you a little.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i think i\'m gonna head off to bed and think about things for a bit...

thanks so much for all the responses!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sleep tight, don\'t worry. Everything\'s gonna be all right.

[Whitehall]

Red wrote \"makes you go through withdrawal just exactly like if you\'d been on heroin.\"

Actually, it is much closer to cocaine withdrawals since it acts on dopamine. That state is also close to clinical depression.

More to the point, go find another woman who is interested in you sexually and stop mooing around a woman who only sees you as a friend - at best. If that\'s too hard to do - still do it because you\'ll be a loser until you screw up the guts to walk away from a deal that going nowhere for you.

No woman has a monopoly on what guys want.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It seems like you were the FRIEND she could turn to for the longest time. She saw it clearly like that but you just didn\'t see where the relationship was.

[proteus]

davin777 wrote: i half cast aside 2 other girls that seemed to show some interest for this girl.<<<cut>>>so next time...there has to be distance? but what about right? with this girl? so...im guessing i screwed up too much and she has no interest in me. but can i mend the friendship? why did she lie to me? am i making a big deal out of nothing<<<<<<<<END QUOTE>>>>>>>>>>

What do you want to mend the friendship for?? If what you wanted was her as your gf and she does not want that, you\'ll save yourself a lot of frustration if you walk. And next time, until she IS your gf don\'t stop yourself from dating other girls who have an interest in you - when she commits to you, then you commit, but not until.

[jose]

The first thing you did wrong was be available all the time, you didn\'t become a challenge. The second you didn\'t make any moves on her, not even a kiss. Her interest in new dropped dramatically after that. You also let her take control of this relationship, which means she can do whatever she wants. You\'re in the friendship zone now and there\'s nothing you can do about it. And whatever you do don\'t go to her like a little puppy seeking approval about your friendship, it will make you look weak and a whuss. Read as many articles as you can http://www.askmen.com (\"http://www.askmen.com\") Doc love gives good advice and you will avoid this in the future.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well...that went about as awkwardly as humanly possible...

Met her this morning. I was a bit early and I ran smack into the her and her apparent boyfriend making out. So the guy leaves...and we enter the awkward silence zone. Finally she\'s says, \"What\'s up this morning?\" And I say, \"It\'s nothing. Nevermind.\" She keeps pushing me to talk...so I say to her I was going to inquire about why our relationship has changed but there\'s no need anymore since it\'s quite obvious now.

More awkward silence. Eventually, I ask why she lied about that guy to me in the past. She swears at the time she had no feelings for him. Everything just happened somehow in the last couple weeks. She says, \"I wanted to tell you but I didn\'t...I don\'t know why.\" Blah blah blah.

Anyways, more awkard silences followed, interjected by awkward questions, followed by more awkward silence. At one point she said, \"You hate him, don\'t you?\" I\'m like I don\'t know they guy but I\'m sure he\'s a decent fellow. Then she\'s like, \"You\'re mad at me.\" And I say no I\'m not mad.

I don\'t what to take away from this...

Obviously, there\'s not shot at a romantic relationship. And I think our friendship might be irreparably damaged...I\'m not sure.

Oh well...live and learn right?

God damn this whole situation sucks...I need a drink...maybe I\'ll go screw some random chick at the next big party on campus. (I\'m mostly kidding...i think.)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have this urge to cuss her out...just because...i don\'t even care if i\'ve brought this on myself. but that wouldn\'t be good, would it?

at this point, i sorta don\'t want anything to do with her...thank goodness winter break is almost here.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That\'s EXACTLY what she wants. She\'s desperate to make you emote. She wanted some explosion out of you, i.e., YES, I HATE HIM! I HATE HIS GUTS! I\'LL KILL HIM!
that didn\'t work, so she went to \"Are you mad?\" hoping to provoke a reaction there, and still got nothing.

You\'re doing real well.

[belgareth]

Do you hate him translates to: Are you jealous? Oh goody, are you going to fight over me, like Helen of Troy? Oh, please, pretty please...
Sorry, got carried away but you take my point. To quote some sharp lady I know, \"She\'s [bad word] up\" If she asks that again, answer with \"Why would you think that?\"

Myself, I would act as if nothing had happened. Be cheerful and friendly while maintaining an arms length at all times. It will drive her to distraction while you remain the good guy and above it all. In the long run, others will see your behavoir and you\'ll earn respect from both genders.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

FullTilt,

So that was good? It was totally by accident. I was pretty worked up about it all last night. But by this morning, I don\'t know...I almost didn\'t care. I did...but I think my emotions were tapped out or something!

We just had a class together...and we probably said all of 10 words to eachother the whole class. I just didn\'t feel like talking. I don\'t how that affected her...I don\'t really care. I have to see her again tomorrow. Don\'t know if I\'ll be any more or less laconic. I\'m just not sure how to act around her right now. I wish I could not be around her because I really don\'t want to talk to her.

But here\'s my new dilemma. We\'re registered to take another class together next semester. I\'m thinking of switching out. I\'m already stuck doing volunteer work with her...and I don\'t think I can get out of that! (I know that sounds weird since it\'s volunteer work but that\'s how it is!!!)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

davin,

the crazy thing is the i don\'t care attitude. the more you show that the more she may respond. we all want what we can\'t have. even if you care, just don\'t show it until you have kissed her and have been dating for a good 2 months or so.

remember the feeling you had. when you are with her, try and bring it back and feel it. like i said before, reel her in slowly. make sure you play the line back out and in, then back out again. keep her guessing. while she is guessing, she will be thinking about you.

i know you just want to wash your hands of it right now but you still have a lot of emotional investment and it\'s the rare the person who can just walk without feeling. besides, its more fun to play with her.

fiddler

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t like this girl. She\'s very very manipulative.


\"I wanted to tell you but I didn\'t...I don\'t know why.\"
OH PLEASE.
She hoped you\'d never find out, she did not \"want to tell you.\" She does too know why. She didn\'t want to have to deal with your feelings or account for her actions. Easier to just stop interacting with you with no explanation. If caught, don\'t own up, start acting like a girl, lost and confused and maybe a little dim witted. \"I don\'t KNOW why...I WANTED to...\"


I don\'t see that she has any problem doing anything else she wants to. So what\'s up with that? /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif


Your natural response to keep your distance from her is making her anxious because she\'s an approval junkie, is my take on it. Can\'t stand it if someone doesn\'t like her so she lies about what she does, not for your happiness\'s sake, but for hers -- she \"doesn\'t want to hurt your feelings\" -- meaning, she doesn\'t want her feelings hurt when you get mad at her for lying to you.


And, ironically, if you did want her back, you could probably get her by doing just want you\'re doing.


But I don\'t think it\'s worth it. Just my two cents.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey davin,
The thing ya gotta do now is find another girl to date. Then, when you see her in class, she will notice your lack of interest in HER and get more attracted to you. It\'s weird that way, when you ignore her, she\'ll get jealous of your NEW love interest.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What\'s also weird is that if you keep on like you have been, being a gentleman but letting it be known quietly that what she did was not all right, your respect quotient will go up and you\'ll probably have more girls\' interest. There\'s something admirable about a guy who handles things well.

How do you feel, anyway? Nuclear winter of the heart and vision turned to black and white, or are we moving along smartly?

[Gerund]

The more I think about his posts, the more I\'m concluding that this girl simply doesn\'t know who or what she wants, literally. It seems she\'s waiting for some divine indication as to which direction to take with which guy. Or she\'s waiting for one guy to tell her what she wants.

No scratch that, let me rephrase: I think she wants a guy to SHOW her or REVEAL to her what she wants. She wants some guy to trigger strong enough feelings in her for her to make up her mind, and feel content with her decision...

Either that, or I need to get many hours of sleep, which is equally likely... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You\'re profound when you\'re sleep deprived.

That resonates. You may have just answered the eternal question.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

FullTilt,

I\'m feeling surprisingly good! Thank you so much for asking!

I usually mope and stay depressed for quite some time after most rejections or betrayals or what have you...but this time my meloncholy passed rather quickly. Though I\'m still not sure what will come of all this...are we friends or no more? But I\'m not gonna worry about it. I\'ve decided if she wants to maintain some sort of frienship, fine...but even should she want to, I won\'t invest too much of my time on her. And should she not want to remain friends of any sort? Well, I suppose that\'s fine too.

I\'m not changing/reregistering the class we have together next semester. I think it\'s stupid to let this affect me to such an extent. And I\'ll just have to put up with her at our volunteer job.

I think everything\'s good...now I just have to get back in the saddle and find someone else. I\'ve never really liked this part but oh well!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh, good man! You rallied! Feet back on the ground, that\'s great.

If you waffle a little over the next few days/weeks, that\'s ok, too, y\'know, just part of the process.

But you\'re moving along smartly, that\'s great to hear.

[jose]

I think you\'re letting her off the hook by maintaining the friendship still. I suggest not hanging out with this girl anymore but be polite, and with a \"I could careless\" attitude when you see her. This might turn things around but I doubt it since your suffering from \"The Nice Guy\" syndrome and you\'re bound to make these mistakes again in the future.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Why the heck is that? Why do nice guys get trampled on? I used to not believe that to be true...but my last girlfriend cheated on me...the girlfriend before that cheated on me. And now, this girl...she wasn\'t a girlfriend and she didn\'t cheat on me...but she did a pretty good job of making me feel like crap.

I don\'t understand. I just don\'t get it. Am I supposed to change myself? Because that\'s just who I am...that\'s just the way I am...to girls, guys, parents, animals, whatever...so if my behavior comes off as \"nice guy\"...? Then what? I\'m just screwed for life, romantically?

Help me out, folks. I\'d rather not get crapped on again.

BTW, when you suggest that I should not hang around with this girl anymore...how do mean? I pretty much plan on not spending time with her outside of class and volunteer work. Is that what you mean? Otherwise...I just think it\'s too much effort on my part to cut all ties by switching classes and figuring out a way to get out of my volunteer work.

[belgareth]

There is nothing wrong with being a nice guy. I\'ve been one all my life and have rarely regretted it. One problem you will frequently encounter is that many people (Including many on this forum) are under the mistaken impression that to be a nice guy, you are a wuss, wimp or sucker. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The things you need to learn are:
1. Be your own man. Let your pride and principles rule your behavoir at all times. Never sacrifice those for anything. You have to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.
2. Never let somebody walk over you or take advantage. This is the hardest one to learn and the most important. From your story, you allowed this girl to take advantage of you. You should have either moved the relationship forward or persued other relationships, or both. Unless you have a mutual agreement of fidelity, there are no rules other than those of a gentleman.
3. Getting laid is only a small part of a mutual relationship. If the other person is not willing to make a commitment to you and keep it, they are not worth your time. Walk away from it with your head up and your demeanor above reproach.
4. Always treat a lady like a lady. If you are with a woman who does not want to be treated to good manners, ask yourself, what is this person really like underneath. The answer is usually disgusting.

There are many good women out there who will treat a good man well. You may have to walk away from a few, but when you find a good woman, you\'ll know it.

Last suggestion: Go into the women\'s forum and read the thread \'What women really want\' try to ignore us guys bickering and just read the women\'s comments. You\'ll learn a lot.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

They mean don\'t spend your free time with her.


Have you ever talked to your ex about why she cheated?


There are some really good posts by the mature men on the forum about the nice guy thing.


I\'m curious, meanwhile, about why you would consent to an asexual relationship at the ripe young age of 22.

[jose]

That\'s what I mean about not hanging out with her(socially),you can still be nice to her in class or whatever. Anyway do you really want to hang out with someone who has a boyfriend, a guy she chose over you? You acted like a whuss when she said if you were mad at her and you denied it, she knew you were lying. You let her take control of the whole situation. Listen to guys who have been there, it will take some changing(personality wise) on your part. Again read Doc love\'s \"The System\" buy the book if you have to. It will teach you that you can still be nice but not let women walk all over you.

[CptKipling]

Davin, read the nice guys thread in the off topic section, I cant recall the name but you\'ll see it. Thats a very usefull one, that and the womens forum.

Summery:

There is no reason no to be a nice guy (meaning kind, gentlemanly etc.), but dont be nice in the way you accept everything she does, even against your REAL principles. Come out of every situation knowing you are a man.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

That\'s what I mean about not hanging out with her(socially),you can still be nice to her in class or whatever. Anyway do you really want to hang out with someone who has a boyfriend, a guy she chose over you? You acted like a whuss when she said if you were mad at her and you denied it, she knew you were lying. You let her take control of the whole situation. Listen to guys who have been there, it will take some changing(personality wise) on your part. Again read Doc love\'s \"The System\" buy the book if you have to. It will teach you that you can still be nice but not let women walk all over you.

<hr></blockquote>

i don\'t think i was being a wuss. i honestly wasn\'t upset when she asked me if i was mad. i was definately mad the night before and if i saw her then i\'d probably have gone off on some regrettable tirade. but that following morning, i was too physically and emotionally exhausted to care that much. even running into them making out didn\'t affect me very much.

later that afternoon i got slighly upset again, but she wasn\'t around. i\'ve gone sort of up an down and up and down.

as for spending time with her...the reason you stated is exactly why i said i\'ve decided to not spend any time with her outside what cannot be avoided.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think you did perfectly. For one thing, if nothing else...you gave no reaction. You were too tired to care. I think that\'s way more effective than tirades, no matter what your intention is, whether to drive her crazy because she can\'t push your buttons, or to let her know how you feel, or whatever.