Part II About Your Attitude

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I get lots of praise for good attitude. I\'m going to share with you why. You ladies please write back and share, too. Attitude:Don\'t sweat the small stuff.Don\'t blame him if you\'re bored. Don\'t blame him if you\'re lonely. Don\'t blame him. Don\'t scold him. Don\'t ever bust his balls. Never whine. Take his side. Accept what he says at face value and don\'t analyze. Keep his secrets. Honor his confidences. Forget his mistakes. Give without keeping score. Keep your heart wide open. These things take a lot of discipline but if you can control yourself, you\'ll be happier. I honestly believe these things are more important to making a man happy than how often you work out or whether you look like a model. Why should you do this? If for nothing else, because it will make him love you. Because I really do think it\'s true what John Gray says, that men need to be admired, that\'s their first need. Women need to feel special. If you have a good attitude as described above, you ARE special and he\'ll show it. Beauty fades; attitude is forever.

[CJ01]

Why is it that women should be that way, why can´t men have those characteristics.
I have a literary quote too:

`Men can be analyzed....women merely adored´
I´ve been thinking about making that my signature BTW
CJ

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, I\'m putting this out there although I suspect I could get slammed for it. To answer your question very honestly, it\'s because sometimes we have to inspire them. The best inspiration is a good example. The better you are to him, the better he\'ll be to you. Unless he really is a rat bastard, in which case, kick him to the curb. I just find it really works for me to stick to those standards of behavior NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES (within reason). I\'m talking about if you want to play for keeps.

I love your quote. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[belgareth]

FTR\'s got it half right. If you\'re with a good man, he is already doing those things for you. If he isn\'t, ask yourself why. Is he a jerk? It happens all the time, some of the best women I\'ve known have ended up with complete a**holes. If he\'s a jerk and you are willing to give 100%, find a man who will appreciate your efforts. There\'s a bunch of them out there who would love to meet you. Or is it something you are, or are not, doing?

From tthe man\'s perspective:
You bring her flowers, rub her feet, support her when she\'s down and build up her confidence. You are loving, kind and considerate. You do everything you can to be good to her. In return, you get home from work and your wife barely looks up and grunts a hello at you. After a silent dinner, she finds a place to sit as far from you as possible and moves aside when you try to touch her in passing. Your sex life is roughly equivilant to that of a Tibetan monk. When your down, she tells you to stop moping and doesn\'t provide a word of support. You are just another piece of the scenery.

After a while you start to say, \'What the hell is this?\' That lady in the office down the hall from yours starts looking better all the time. The grass just keeps getting greener and greener. Then, when you want a divorce or just start chasing around, she can\'t understand why.

It isn\'t for the sex, or at least the sex is only a small part of it. It\'s the companionship, the feeling of being wanted and liked that he needs. Men are humans too. We are emotional creatures, just like you are. In the long term relationship, a good woman will recognize this and respect it. In return, a good man will do everything he can to keep the treasure that a really good woman is.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

FTR, I totally agree with what you are saying. But it is sometimes really hard to keep that attitude. I\'m kind of young, in my mid twenties, and am learning this now with my current relationship. I\'m a really positive person and sometimes it hard for me not to tell him to keep his head up when he is worried about something, I feel that by doing that I\'m helping him but really I think that what he would respond to more is if I just agreed and told him I was sorry he felt that way. In relationships I think we do what we would want to be done to us but I think the key is to understanding what your partner needs and doing that above what you might feel is right.

[belgareth]

Chuckv:

So, tell him to keep his head up. We men are big children at heart and need a little mothering at times. Especially when we are worried or down. It shows him that you care and are paying attention. You\'d be surprised how far a little TLC applied at the right moment goes.

[Bruce]

My wife has always been the \"good wife\" and \"good mother\", and I have spent the last ten years of my life trying to be deserving of that. She doesn\'t kiss my ass and she sure doesn\'t cower if I give her a hard time deserved or not. She can be hell on wheels, and I have ducked flying objects more than once in our marriage. She doesn\'t pry into my life and I am learning not to pry into hers. We never ever discuss the \"past\". I think the only time she gives me a hard time is in self defense. She doesn\'t put up with any BS, but if I keep myself in line a little bit, she takes good care of me. I really appreciate that and try to be a good provider, father and protector. I have a good friend who had a Japanese wife. He was mean to her and finally divorced her. It\'s not for everybody and even at best you can get a little lonely sometimes, but it has been good for me.

Bruce

[CJ01]

I still see no difference in what women and men need, like and want. It´s all about give and take no matter what kind of relationship you´re dealing with and it should work both ways.

I´m not there to educate a grown man how to treat others around him. If someone is able to respond to me as a human being and treats me well I´m more than happy to do the same or even more.

FTR unfortunately what you said is not always true in reality- if you´re good to someone, they´ll do the same. Sad but true.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Chalk it up to afterglow. I was in a mood.

[CJ01]

How come?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Afterglow. Feeling loving after good sex.

But I\'ve had a minute to think about this and I\'m going to press my point a little even though how I see it is impossibly idealistic and romantic and therefore maybe of little value to some.


CJ, it\'s absolutely true that just because you treat a guy well does not mean they will treat you well in return.


BUT. There are several things in its favor.


1. It is a test of character. For some men, the more you are kind, sweet, trusting, understanding, the more they get off on testing your patience, telling blatant lies, and just plain committing serial jackassery to the extent that it becomes clear they have no internal control over how far they will go to take advantage of a good situation. So it\'s an effective weeding out tool.


2. Virtue is its own reward. If you\'re serious about your relationship and you conduct yourself as much as humanly possible to your own highest standards, at least if it breaks up, you can look yourself in the eyes and say you did your very best. That\'s worth something.


3. For the man who has completely lost faith, to be an eternal flame for him is ennobling for the both of you.


That last one is what motivated me to write the post. Picture someone you love who\'s been under hard circumstances and is feeling a little beaten down by the world, who makes a mistake in your relationship, and offers an apology in a manner that says \"I know you won\'t believe me and I know you can\'t forgive me, but this is how it was, this is what happened\" and is expecting to hear \"That\'s right, you\'re an ass, and I\'m still mad at you....\" Instead he finds out you understand, you really do forgive him and you really do love him without wavering, and when he gets that, and almost does a double take and says \"What part of heaven did you float down from?\" and tears glisten in his eyes -- it\'s a Hallmark moment. You can hear the violins swell. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif For a guy who really is looking for the inner princess, to coin a phrase, to actually find it is the holy grail. To be it is very hard work, but it\'s more rewarding than to indulge your sharp tongue or your need to be smarter than or your suspicions or your wish for gratification. I don\'t know how many times I\'ve thanked god I didn\'t say what I thought at the time, when things have been difficult. It came to light later on that there were good reasons for what happened or for what he did and I could have done real damage to the relationship if I hadn\'t had standards to make me hold the line no matter what it looked like was going on at the time or how disappointed or frustrated I was at something not going right that he was responsible for.


I know I\'m a sap, but -- that\'s how I see it.

OH! P.S. to chuckv re
\"really I think that what he would respond to more is if I just agreed and told him I was sorry he felt that way. In relationships I think we do what we would want to be done to us but I think the key is to understanding what your partner needs and doing that above what you might feel is right. \"

Sympathy, understanding, and the response that most heals the wound whether it\'s what you would want in similar circumstances or not, which is just another way to \"understand\" someone. I think what you wrote is brilliant. It is the key. If you can figure out what the other person most needs and give it to them, even if that\'s not how you see the world or what you would want, you\'re 100% on the right track to making happiness. I believe that.

[Manolo]

I\'m a man and when I read this thread I thought \"at last women start to realize!\"

But I have to admit I don\'t work exactly like you think. I feel more attracted to my wife when I\'m not so sure about her, I mean unconditional love is nice but bores. It stimulates me the fact of having to get her love.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My situation\'s a little different.

But I see what you mean. Good point.

[Irish]

Men are easy to figure out. I am talking about normal men in good mental health. Women who continually entangle themselves with narcissists, control freaks, sadistic manipulators, misogynists, mama\'s-boys, weaklings, \'bad-boy\' sociopaths, etc. fail to get much sympathy from me. Because after their lives inevitably turn to hell with these losers they have chosen, they then tend to blame the entire male gender for their own defective taste in men. First step: choose normal men, choose wisely. Outgrow the psychos and losers.

That said, men are easy. We tend to define ourselves by what we do, not so much what we are. In fact we ARE what we DO. We are motivated by the promise of SUCCESS. So give us the job that makes us happy. And that job is \'doing things that make YOU happy\'. We want to DO things for you, and KNOW that it makes you happy. That effort and success makes us happy and supports our feeling of worth. Women often don\'t see this, because they seem to derive their own self-worth more from appreciation of what they are as opposed to what they do. (I know there\'s exceptions and reversals - I\'m just talking about trends here not universal laws).

Just say things like \"It makes me happy when you XXX\", and then when he does XXX let him know it pleased you. You will have men eating out of your hand. Men are dying for \'assignments\' from a woman that they 1) Can actually accomplish and 2) get feedback that it pleased her (=success). If you work a man through this cycle repeatedly he will become hooked on you and the masculine high he feels being around you.

Even more important, criticize wisely. If you criticize by saying \"You are insensitive, you never do XXX!\", then you\'ve already lost the battle. Men hate failure, and realize that if you already view him in a negative light he is very likely to \'fail\' at his job of making you happy, even if he does some positive things. So he will give up in advance and avoid the pain of failing in detail. \'Don\'t beat your head against the wall\', quit before it gets worse, cut your losses… classic male logic in action.

Plus if you convince him he actually IS bad or insensitive or whatever, there is no point from male logic of trying at all. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. A man views his character as something relatively fixed, from which actions flow commensurate with that character. He just controls how much effort he puts into those actions, and positive actions (making you happy) are a proof of his good inner character in his thinking. But if you effectively assault his character he might as well give up (if he believes you), because whatever flows from his \'bad\' character will continue to displease you. Don\'t try to convince a man he is bad, try to convince him to DO good things (thereby finding success and proof that he really is a \'good guy\' after all).

Why not criticize this way: say to him \"It would make me so happy if you would XXX\", instead of berating him for failing to do XXX up till now. This way you haven\'t attacked his ability to please you, you\'ve given him a new job description that can make him more of a success. This subtle difference is the key to making the men in your life your willing slaves.

The compliments I remember most strongly are when my efforts to please a woman were noticed and appreciated (even if they weren\'t perfect). I routinely ignore or minimize compliments about my appearance - it\'s nice to hear but doesn\'t really get me excited. Actions speak louder than words for a man, and to notice his actions is a powerful way to touch him deeply. Encourage him in the actions that please you. This doesn\'t require a woman to cater to a man or abandon her integrity - just as a practical matter encourage and criticize a man in a way he understands, and in a way that is likely to get the desired response.

Tell him what would make you happy, give him a chance to prove it, then let him know when he succeeds. When criticizing his shortcomings, try to focus on actions you desire and not his character - give him hope of future success in making you happy. Simple behavioral modification … men are the easiest lab-rats of all to program when you see how we operate.

Modern writers have delved into this, but this was all discussed throughout antiquity. If your man is not responding to this concept, go back to the first step: choose wisely, avoid the jerks.

[belgareth]

Loud applause!

[Whitehall]

The Ancient Greeks said the key to wisdom was \"Know Thy Self.\"

Mr. Irish is a wise man. He has certainly pegged us men well. I am truly impressed.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

God, Irish, you write a good post. I\'m printing that out and keeping it.

I just \"got\" that Men Hate Failure concept in the past few years.

What\'s tough about that is that it\'s inconceivable the extent to which a man will make himself responsible for things. It seems like anything a woman makes a critical remark about whatsoever can be cause for the guy to feel like he\'s failed.

What\'s that about, do you know?

[Irish]

Well, with maturity we men hopefully realize we can\'t be totally responsible for another\'s happiness. We can only do so much as a man for the woman we love. With experience we learn these extents and limits, and don\'t beat ourselves up too badly over issues outside our power. We as men can\'t always \'make everything better\', even though it\'s our desperate need and desire to do so. To know that we are responsible for a woman\'s joy is one of the most fulfilling moments of our lives. Because of that, we may become too sensitive to our inability to always create that joy in her.

So we can be too sensitive to failure, just because it is such a core issue. And some women may encourage that over-sensitivity, implying that the man should somehow have magical powers to understand and provide her happiness supernaturally. And men may blame themselves for things outside their control - be too sensitive too a woman\'s unhappiness and too quick to blame themselves for it. Age and accumulated wisdom are probably the best cure for these problems.

I would liken it to a woman\'s sensitivity to her appearance. Suppose her man finds her completely desirable and beautiful, and cares not a whit if she just gained five pounds in her hips. Yet if he comments \'Hey, gained some poundage in the hips babe - you look great!!\' she would be terribly wounded. It is just such an area of sensitivity that it can bear no criticism, real or implied. So it is with a man\'s sense of \'providing\' what a woman needs. It is just a core issue that reflects directly on gender image and self-worth.

But you are right, a wise man must learn what he can and cannot do in his role, and concentrate on things under his control. To assume unreasonable responsibility (which leads to inevitable feelings of failure) is no good for any relationship.

[belgareth]

That is some of the most sensible talk regarding relationships I\'ve seen on this forum. Thank you for putting into coherent words some things that everybody of both genders should understand. You are a wise man.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Excellent choice of examples, too. That hits home. SDR said, in regard to some pictures I\'d had taken of me, \"With you, it\'s not about how you look. It\'s about how you feel.\" It was a boot in the gut that took me months of hard inner work to get over, and he couldn\'t understand why I felt to him like I was holding back in bed during the time I was working it out to myself.

Flip side, he was being a little demanding and at the expression on my face said \"I know. I\'m an insensitive prick, right?\" laughing, and I said \"Actually, Insolent Bastard is how I think of you from time to time, but that was close.\" Banter, right? No. Hurt and betrayal flash through his eyes. Sh*t! Sew my mouth shut... He didn\'t call for about three weeks.

It\'s so easy to screw up.

[Gerund]

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it\'s inconceivable the extent to which a man will make himself responsible for things.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So very true. The books by John Gray (Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus) do an excellent job of elaborating on these themes.

And guys aren\'t always consciously aware that they\'re taking the credit or blame for their mates\' happiness or discontent. John Gray illustrates with an example of a woman who is enjoying the view of a beautiful sunset:

The woman gushes on about how fabulous the sunset is, and how enthralled she is by the scene. She glowingly describes to him the pleasure she is experiencing as she watches.

And the guy, on *some* level, is saying to himself: \"Yes, that\'s right. I BROUGHT you this sunset. And I\'m glad that you are enjoying it so much, because providing something that makes you so happy makes me feel empowered.\"

So that\'s the flip side of a guy taking the blame or feeling that he has failed when his woman is unhappy, even when her unhappiness at the moment has absolutely nothing to do with him, and was brought about by external circumstances clearly beyond his control.

Just as a guy can irrationally feel he has failed when his woman is unhappy, he can also irrationally take credit (in his mind, on some level) for her happiness when she expresses great pleasure as a result of some circumstance that really had nothing to do with him.

Things like this keep life interesting, huh?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Here\'s what I don\'t get. The way to make men happy is to be happy around them, in a nutshell.

Women are moody; it\'s a fact, and we can\'t help it.

It would seem the cards are stacked against us from the start.

[Whitehall]

Men are driven to win - we learn early that losers get nothing. When it comes to continuing to win the affections of a woman, we\'ll take the same approach. If it stops working for us we think we just have to try harder.

That behavior sets us up for frustration and, at worst, manipulation by women. Wisdom is knowing what can\'t be won and having the internal power to redirect or negate our desires (a Zen concept.)

[Irish]

FTRH - I don\'t think the key is for women to just falsely act happy around men, and then let them take credit for making you happy, which isn\'t true for you in that situation. That would leave the woman unsatisfied and the man with a false sense of security.

The trick is to use the man\'s natural tendencies to your own advantage. Give him assignments! The things you really want from him - things you would love for him to do!! Let him truly make you happy by telling him what you really want, then rewarding him with your approval when he does it. If you are in a foul mood, tell him how he can support you at that moment (tolerate your emotions, stand by, stay clear, whatever). It\'s not about producing a mindless grin on your face, it\'s about meeting your needs.

The trick is in how you ask. If you preface it with a criticism, a detailed explanation of how he is an insensitive lout and evil person failing to meet your needs, you will get no useful action from him, hostile feelings, and either a counterattack or an isolating withdrawal.

But if you make your desires known, with the promise of bringing you joy/satisfaction if he succeeds, you will have a willing man using all his powers to rise to the occassion. He will go overboard to please you beyond what you even ask. Sure it\'s better if he\'s savvy enough to anticipate what you want without you having to tell him, but if he\'s not 100% there help him along in a way that gives him positive reinforcement and success. Even a dolt can learn, esp. if motivated.

His reward is to know he somehow made you happy or satisfied. Create opportunities for him to do that. Criticize him in a way that leads to a better plan for pleasing you, not to a despairing sense of futility about trying.

It\'s not that hard. This kind of treatment from women is rare, and worth more than closets full of lingerie. It is hopelessly seductive and addictive, becuase it reinforces a man\'s masculinity and feelings of self-worth.

Many women operate from a zero baseline and work down. The man is implicitly expected to anticipate and fully comply with her needs, and there\'s no reward for doing that except an absence of criticism. However, each and every failure to completely satisfy her is met with a blistering personal attack on his character and a nagging exposition of his failures. The best he can hope for is a lack of pain, and then only if he manages perfect supernatural care of her needs.

I propose operating in a way that reinforces his pleasure and self-esteem, and will actually get a man to do what you want. Offer him the reward of your satisfaction when telling him what you want. And when he\'s missing the mark point him in the right direction with offers of the same reward - your happiness.

He\'s the only soldier you have - give him sound orders, let him know when the mission is successful, and don\'t shoot him when he blows it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"And some women may encourage that over-sensitivity, implying that the man should somehow have magical powers to understand and provide her happiness supernaturally. And men may blame themselves for things outside their control - be too sensitive too a woman\'s unhappiness and too quick to blame themselves for it. Age and accumulated wisdom are probably the best cure for these problems.\"
Yes, and do you think it\'s partly generational, too? It\'s not long ago that it was not unreasonable to think that men were supernaturally able. E.g., I had a very sexist and traditional upbringing, and can remember in 3rd grade a teacher giving a homework assignment involving learning to write a check. My dad was outraged and indignant and said HIS daughter would NEVER have to learn to write a check. Ladies didn\'t handle money. I guess he thought he\'d live forever. But ... money just appeared and I never knew what anything cost. If we needed something, we got it. If something was broken, he fixed it. Some women are raised to think that men really ARE omnipotent. The idea that my dad couldn\'t do something never ever entered my head, growing up. So the nagging and criticism is often because the woman has been brought up to have unrealistic expectations, and the first thought is that if he doesn\'t give you what you want, he\'s thwarting you on purpose -- you never think that it\'s because he can\'t. We do kind of think you\'re Superman.

\"Men are driven to win - we learn early that losers get nothing.\"
Women just don\'t even see as many contests.

\"If you preface it with a criticism, a detailed explanation of how he is an insensitive lout and evil person failing to meet your needs, you will get no useful action from him, hostile feelings, and either a counterattack or an isolating withdrawal\"
/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif
It\'s extremely effective for that, too. If the purpose is to make him go away, nothing will do it better than to turn into a fishwife harpy.

[Irish]

The Superman role is tough to play, believe me. Especially when you get mixed signals from women - sometimes they may seem to want you to solve everything, sometimes your well-intenioned efforts tread on her sense of autonomy, and she takes your efforts as an insult to her competance.

I\'m to the point where I pretty much know what I want and need, and am also resolved to rarely getting it. Sometimes absence of pain is as good as it gets. Plus it lets me play the role of a classic male archetype: the Suffering Martyr! It\'s not as bad as all that, although lowered expectations do help a man enjoy the rare little bursts of sunhine a lot more.

As far as chasing men away with harpy-like behavior...well, that kind of negative power works. But be resolved to them not coming back unless they are the masochistic types. That borders on the type of pathological situation I don\'t like to try and figure out...

[Whitehall]

\"If the purpose is to make him go away, nothing will do it better than to turn into a fishwife harpy. \"

This sort of behavior has been know to produce great philosophers and to make them happy to drive hemlock. Witness the story of Xantippe.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish, that\'s funny. I\'ve been thinking all day that I wanted to write that they key is not to ask for much. Extinguish your demands/lower your expectations and be happy for what you do get - exactly - be resolved to rarely getting it.

The harpy thing is only for when you want them never to come back. It\'s the last thing in your arsenal for the kinds of guys you warned about, the trouble guys. When you figure out what you\'re dealing with and you try to get away, sometimes it\'s not easy and they don\'t want to let you. The harpy/fishwife makes them go away for good.

The great thing about this forum is that you get to see what each side struggles with. I guess our version of Superman is The Angel Of The Hearth, which is pretty much what we\'ve been invoking here.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Was it Oscar Wilde and Dorothy Parker?

\"If you were my husband, I\'d poison your tea.\"

\"Madam, if you were my wife, I\'d drink it.\"

[Whitehall]

Winston Churchill? and some lady.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That is correct. Who was the annoying lady?

[Gerund]

Sounds like Oscar Wilde, FTR, but I don\'t know for sure.


The mention of Winston Churchill reminded me of another similar exchange, along these lines:

.....Churchill, fairly intoxicated at a social function, says to a woman, \"you\'re ugly, you know.\"

.....The woman replies, \"and you\'re drunk, you know.\"

.....To which Churchill responds, \"Yes -- but in the morning, I\'LL be SOBER.\" (reminding the woman that, come
..... morning, she\'ll still be UGLY!) hehe



Now I\'m thinking it may not have been Churchill, but maybe Mark Twain. Can\'t remember. But I\'ve always thought it was a pretty funny exchange.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The annoying lady was Lady Astor.

I\'d heard that \"tomorrow I\'ll be sober\" before but never attributed to Twain or Churchill, but they were both Sagittarians and had a similar kind of blunt wit. I\'ll have to look that one up, it\'s good.

[upsidedown]

That was indeed a Churchill quiote. He made it to Lady Astor. They apperently didn\'t like each other as there\'s another famous exchange between them.

Lady Astor: \"Winston, if I were your wife I\'d put poison in your coffee.\"
Winston: \"Nancy, if I were your husband I\'d drink it.\"

[upsidedown]

Sorry, I didn\'t notice that the quote I just posted had already been talked about earlier in the thread. Sorry about that. I\'ll do my reading homework first next time before I open my mouth...er fingers.

[Gerund]

That\'s quite alright. It makes the rest of feel a little less foolish when we do similar things. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Goddess]

Wow - Irish that\'s \"heady\" - This is some of the best stuff I\'ve read - helps to be able to understand WHY guys act like they do. Who would have guessed??? You guys are as much a mystery to us as you say we are to you! Keep it coming...I\'m soaking it all in! Thanks for your input.