If you don't believe in god

[**DONOTDELETE**]

then what do you do when disaster strikes? What is your internal monologue if it can\'t be \"Oh, please god.\" Who do you try to make deals with? (Take five years of my life and give them to her to enjoy and I swear I\'ll be good the rest of the life I\'m left with) ...

what do you do?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I notice you spelled god in lower-case as opposed to God. Are you refering to the big guy with the white beard who sits on a throne in the clouds, or is it a reference to accepting that there is a power greater than ourselves?
I don\'t believe in the \"christian\" God, but I do believe in a universal existance that extends beyond our mortal bodies. I could try to explain in detail, but my wrists have been pretty tired these last few days /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Gerund]

That\'s alright, He believes in you.

Speaking of \"who do you talk to\" at certain times: Thank You, God, that this is an off-topic thread! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Watcher]

Call upons ones best coping mechanisms, everyone will call upon something, calling upon god could just be considered calling to youreself to find the strength to carry on, its just a very deeply ingrained belief that is able to be called upon by believers as a sort of mental protection and emotional strengthener.
Or we could just all learn how to use NLP in the inner mind to call upon this drive and will at all times. Looking at it from a mental sort of standpoint it could be considered like the above.

[sophie]

I love \"religious\" subjects,as long as they don\'t get ugly, so I have to put in my .02.

As so many people have had \"religion\" (ie oganized religion) leave a bad taste in their lives, I like to think that everyone can somehow recognize a higher power in their lives, be it nature, or the universe itself, any form of God that works for you. I just get discouraged thinking that some people have no higher power to lean on in times of despair or great trials.

I call it spirituality, because \"religion\" turns off so many people, and yes it is a very provocative subject, but I think we all need a deity, it is part of human nature. It is a very personal thing for a lot of people and that is fine. I would never want to force my personal beliefs on another, I just want hurting people to have a support system to help them through tough times,and to help with enlightenment regarding universal truths. And having a higher power, of any sort, IMO, is an important thing.

I feel almost like a fraud here, though, being so PC (though some may argue, that is a given). I was raised Southern Baptist and still have the hellfire and damnation God imprinted on my consciousness, but I have made my peace with God, and he meets me where I am.

[Watcher]

Yeah its ok unless the organised structure of the particular belief is highjacked by types who just prefer to exercise their power over the masses. Ie pedophiles within the catholic church.
Old men who find anyway to continue to throw their discusting influences over and through a secret society type of hirechy.

[sophie]

Exactly,watcher!! I find organized religion, as a whole, extremely a turnoff. I just worry that people see organized religion and think, I want no part of God, and to me they (God and religion) are two separate things. I think God is disgusted by a lot of the things that go on in His name. (just IMHO, I don\'t presume to know the mind of God, hellfire and damnation comin\'s after me for sure!!)

[Gerund]

I\'m not crazy about some of the distortions that have been fed to the faithful by church hierarchies, either.

And yes, watcher, there have been pedophiles in all of the organized relgions. I don\'t think the Catholics have cornered the market on pedophiles. And I guess I lack the \"conspiratorial\" gene that would lead me to think that men premeditate entering the priesthood so that they can have access to children. Becoming a priest is no easy task. There must be a DOZEN occupations pedophiles could get into with MUCH less difficulty, if the sole object is to be around vulnerable children, such as coaching, teaching, involvement with any number of youth organizations. (BTW, I am not now, nor have I ever been Catholic)

Having said these things, I have to add that I don\'t think we should throw out the baby with the bath water. Organized religion accomplishes a lot of good, too. It\'s just that when we are disappointed by our particular church or sect, it is unbelievably frustrating; I know from personal experience.

Part of the problem seems to be that too many religions still focus on the Old Testament (the hellfire and damnation part) instead of the New Testament (with a NEW, IMPROVED Covenant between God and his people).

Another part of the problem is that many biblical lessons are misconstrued, misapplied, and misunderstood. Take, for instance the concept of \"turning the other cheek.\" It has nothing to do with not sticking up for yourself, or not defending yourself. It does not mean that you are to subordinate your happiness to others, or anything like that. I\'m sure you get what I\'m saying.

What \"turn the other cheek\" does mean, when fully analyzed in context (from the original writings before translations) is more like this: Don\'t change from who you are, or what you are about, because someone has wronged you. Don\'t become like them, and retaliate in a like manner -- two wrongs don\'t make a right. Don\'t lower yourself to their level.

It was never intended to mean that you have to be everybody\'s whipping boy, or scapegoat, or that you must always put everybody elses\' needs and feelings ahead of yours. That isn\'t what \"turn the other cheek\" is actually about, at all. But it has been distorted by many religious leaders to mean that you should think of yourself last, if ever.

That sort of thing is what bugs me most about organized religion.

But in addition to my disillusionment, I understand that if I want to see improvement, I need to work from within a chosen religious group to bring about what I perceive to be needed changes. You know -- volunteer input and provide feedback -- the basic means through which any organization is changed for the better. And if they think I\'m full of beans, they can ignore me. And I\'ll take my beans and go to other groups, until I find some like-minded souls. And there l will settle, and thrive.

And I hope everybody here finds peace in the way that is most meaningful to them.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s a reflex for me to start talking to god if something bad happens that\'s beyond my control, or anybody\'s control.

It just hit me today, I wonder what anyone does who has no belief in a higher power -- was curious to know where their mind goes in case of impending catastrophe.

[proteus]

I find it interesting how gender is assigned to what many call \"God\". It seems so mortal and limiting.

And to respond to the first question posted in this thread, I think the pertinent question for me is not who you call out to when disaster strikes, but rather why/how was this disaster permitted to happen in the first place.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok. My mother has cancer and she had her first radiation treatment today. She wrote that the doctor said her hair is going to start falling out this week. I was handling it fine until it hit me, driving home, that my beautiful mother with her beautiful hair is going to be standing in front of the mirror and brushing her hair and it will fall out in her hands. The first thing I did was start talking to god. Then I figured if he, it, she, whatever, gave a damn in the first place, this wouldn\'t be happening, so I should find a quarter and call someone who cares. Then I started to wonder what about people who were not raised to believe in any supernatural power. What do they think when it hits them their mother\'s hair is going to fall out and she\'s going to be very sick? Their child dies, their husband is killed, etc. Your house gets hit by a tornado and everything\'s blown to smithereens, I doubt you\'re gonna go wandering through the wreckage thinking about air currents re why did this happen.

[proteus]

I\'m really sorry about your mother FTR and I wish and hope for a full recovery for her.

It is suffering of this nature, the very real tragedies/pains that people experience everyday that are the point of my question. Why is this suffering allowed to happen? How could someone who is described as All-Powerful (Omnipotent - able to do anything), In All (Omnipresent - everywhere, thus fully conscious and aware of ALL suffering everywhere) and ALL-Seeing (Omniscient - All-seeing, able to see every event in our lives from birth to death), permit the disasters/horrors to happen that so many of us have experienced in our personal lives, and that we see on the news everyday.

This is the pertinent question to me then, if there is something out there that is as worthy of the title of God, why does it allow these things to happen. For the longest time I was angry, perhaps even furious at this higher being, whose existence I never doubted, but whose qualities/characteristics I did, having many Job-like discussions with friends, family etc., and it\'s only recently that I found the answer to my question. I think within this mystery is the key to understanding and then, at least for me, one can no longer doubt in the existence of a Creator.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I can\'t help but believe in god, even if there\'s no reason for it or if it\'s wrong.

I\'m pretty pissed off at him though and I want some explanations in the afterlife.

But at least he\'s got broad enough shoulders to take my anger. What do people do who don\'t have god at all?

[Elana]

FTR- I am so sorry to hear about your Mother. I will include her in my prayers. I lost my dear Father to pancreatic cancer about three years ago. I don\'t know how I would have gotten through it without my belief in G-d and belief in the afterlife. Of course I realize that I may just be grasping at straws, but if it helps me get through it, then that is what I will do.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[proteus]

Having had quite a few atheist friends I think the answer is that they simply accept these tragedies as a natural part of living and see any need for a \"God\" as a crutch for \"weak\" people (didn\'t Jesse Ventura say something along these lines once in the media). Who knows, maybe they are right and that these ideas of a higher being are mere fairy tales/fantasies. Guess as is often said, we will all find out the \"truth\" someday :-)

[Bruce]

FTR,
My mother went through the same thing when I was just a child and unfortunately didn\'t make it. It was very rough for me, especially since I was only ten. More and more folks are surviving the disease these days, so you have every reason to hope and pray.

Personally, I choose to believe in God. If there really is one, then great, I am right on target. If there isn\'t, then there are no rules and I have created a God for myself family friends and neighbors. I love them and want to learn to love them more and stop doing bad things. Believing in a God helps me to do that. On the one hand, it is not any big mysterious thing, on the other it is a miracle.

Bruce

[biteme]

Hi, FTR.

I\'m very sorry about your mother. I hope she makes it through ok.

First, I havn\'t had a lot of experience with the death or illness of a loved one. A very close friend of mine committed suicide over ten years ago. My maternal grandfather passed away when I was 5, but I\'d met him only once before he passed away.

So maybe I have no right to even have the opinions that I do considering my lack of experience with life, but as an atheist, I have the opinion that tragedies are merely a part of life (like proteus had mentioned about his atheist friends). Everything has a life span and everything must come to an end and, thereby, be recycled.

I hope that doesn\'t come off as cold and callous. My apologies, if it does.

It doesn\'t answer why your mother (or anyone) has to suffer before her time comes.

I can\'t speak for other atheists, but when hardships occur, I just take it as those are the cards I was dealt with. At times, I\'ve cried and whined like a little school boy. Other times, I remember to accept it, learn from it, do what I need to do to make the best of it and turn the situation around. But again, I\'ve never had to deal with the kind of hardship you\'re going through right now.

I wish I had answers for you, FTR. I hope your mother makes a full recovery.

[Walter]

Proteus,
Jesse Ventura, in his interview in playboy, said that religion(not god) was a crutch for weak minded people.

And he became my hero the second he said it because he actually had the balls to say it. No offence to anyone here it is just my belief. You have yours and I have mine.

I personally have no problem in god, however I don\'t believe in him either. My problem is organized religion of any kind. Everyone I have seen was corrupt and had some form of fanatics in them.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That\'s a thinly veiled quote of Karl Marx and therefore does not impress me much. \"Religion is the opiate of the masses.\"
Pseudo-intellectualism...

Which is not to argue the merits of the statement itself - I\'m in no state of mind just now to even try.

You 70 year olds should know your history better, being in college and all... /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I got into a religeous discussion with a friend tonight.
She belives that a guy with a white beard (God) waved his hand and POOF! the universe was made. Over the next week he made light, and plants, and animals, etc.... I found this quite amusing (sorry). With all we know in science and technology, the Darwinist theories, space exploration and observation. She thinks it\'s all hogwash. HER:\"God made it. That\'s it\" I have a theory that the bible is really more of a handbook for society. But she believes it needs to be read literally. I asked her opinion about ancient religion (Chinese, Native American, etc...) and she replied - they are all much younger than Christianity and therefore must be wrong. Ah-HA! I said - but Christianity is based on Judaism I countered...she conceded that fact was true. But since the Jews killed the saviour they couldn\'t be christians (????) I started getting confused with her logic at this point. Jesus was a Jew. HER:\"yes\" , So the Jews killed one of their own. HER:\"yes\" so some other people popped up out of nowhere and told the jews that they had just killed the saviour, and then wrote a book about it. HER:\"well...\" (now I think she started getting confused) What about eternal damnation? HER:\"well that was because people weren\'t going to church like they were supposed to, so the catholics made it up to scare people back into church\" hmmm says I. The conversation dwindled into another subject at that point. I started talking about the pyramids being about 10,000 years old (long before JC) and she thought it was interesting, but not true. HER: \" <<<someting about the great flood, and fossils>>> \" It didn\'t make much sense to me personally.
Now I\'m not very educated in religion at all, but I like talking about it. Anyone who wishes to explain what really happened 2000 years ago, please enlighten me.
FTR: All I can say is I\'m so sorry to hear about your mom. I hope for only the very best for you and your family. I hope you enjoy the holiday - it is a festive time, spend it with loved ones, and know that there is much sympathy here.
Josh

[sophie]

Josh, interesting....that\'s why I don\'t even try to argue with people about God. Because to me it is all on a personal level, I don\'t even try to find explanations for all of life\'s mysteries, except what makes sense to me. Different things are important to different people, and I believe that each individual must find his/her own personal relationship with a higher power, whatever it may be. But I do fervently believe that each of us must make some connection to that higher power, because it completes us as part of the universe of being. I feel I\'m being way too metaphysical here, so I\'m not going to ramble on....I stand by my premise that organized religion has distanced more people than it\'s ever \"saved\", and each person should seek their own higher being and form a personal relationship with whatever they see as God. My God may not be \"your God\" but everyone should think about this at some point in their lives. The answers to most questions are there if you seek them, and some questions just don\'t have earthly answers, and some questions don\'t matter as much as we might think they do. Peace...sophie

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sophie, they named you right -- after Sophia, embodiment of wisdom.


RR, your friend is wack. I could write a book about what all she said that was inaccurate. But it probably doesn\'t matter.

Thanks for the love, y\'all. I love you back.

FTR

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sophie!!! You\'re supposed to call me RR on the forum - everyone is gonna find out about us now!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif (J/K).
Anyways - The conversation with my friend was just a discussion. She wasn\'t trying to change my views, and I wasn\'t trying to tell her that her belief system was wrong. It was just an interesting exchange of ideas (more people should do it more often imho) I think that trying to force people into anything just abandons them. The last post I put up does read more like an argument, but it really wasn\'t.
I would love to hear some of your ideas on our \"being\" sometime Sophie. For some reason I have a funny feeling that we may share some similar concepts. Have you ever read anything by Joseph McMoneagle by chance?

[sophie]

darn, I just went to the library on Saturday, I\'ll have to look that guy up. I know what you mean though, not an argument just a discussion. I love a lively theological discussion. I find though that I get flustered too (like your friend) if I try to defend my own beliefs, so over time I have examined what is the crux of the matter, as opposed to what is debatable (and I\'m still not satisfied with my choice of words here), and thus my thoughts as expressed in the above post. People in general have firmly held beliefs in whatever deity they believe and I respect that. Well, that\'s all from me for now; it\'s a deep subject, that\'s for sure.

[druid]

Well RR we don\'t really KNOW that much from science. Science is based on deductive reasoning -- going from a specfic obeservation to a more general conclusion. Which can work but can also fail. Now IMO the sum of what humans KNOW lies within mathematics and phliosphy (which get there KNOWledge A PRIORI). And remember darwinism is ONLY a theory.

PS-In response to your friend \"they killed christ and therefore can\'t be christians\", well they are not CHRISTIANS they are jews. Besides any REAL christian will tell you it was not the jews that killed jesus -- it was our sins. And tell her, even the bible tells of a lot of history before christ.

[Elana]

\"PS-In response to your friend \"they killed christ and therefore can\'t be christians\", well they are not CHRISTIANS they are jews. Besides any REAL christian will tell you it was not the jews that killed jesus -- it was our sins. And tell her, even the bible tells of a lot of history before christ.\"

Actually it was the Romans that killed Christ

[sophie]

RE: scientific evidence vs creationism....there is more and more \"scientific evidence\" of the Big Bang theory (expanding universe), that can correlate with creation by an omnipotent being. I\'m not an expert on this but thought I should throw that in for discussion if anyone wants to discuss.

[druid]

I am not saying I believe in creationism or the big bang, just stating that science is not perfect. I for one consider myself a man of science. In fact I believe that science has proven that there is a god and an some form of after life.

Like for example -- science is sorta based on something called the UCA (universal caustion axim (sp?) ) Basically it means everything was caused by something that preceded it. The problem with that was WHAT WAS THE INTIAL CAUSE? WHAT CAUSED THAT CAUSE?? and so and so on....

I think you are referring to the recent news that science has observed the universe is still expanding and that that must be a remenant(sp?) of the big bang.....But my problem is that this is not based on reason -- but on observation. And what if we are in the \"matrix\"????? Then how do we know what is real? But our minds exist because we are being decieved, we are thinking, I THINK THEREFORE I AM..(i forget the latin -- this is descartes). But personally I see no reason to doubt our percieved reality is real so therefore I accept as true.

[sophie]

druid, good observations I think....this is where I go back to my credo that some questions don\'t have answers, you just have to accept what makes sense to you, and we\'re all different that way.

I like that cause and effect theory....I have read that there is something inborn in the human brain that makes us search for a higher power/reason for being...definitely not an expert on this one because I can\'t remember the details of what I read about it. I\'ll try to remember later....

[druid]

well the cause and effect thing is an argument I borrowed from phliosphy. There is a whole branch of phlioshy that is devoted to WHAT CAN ONE KNOW.

[CptKipling]

For me there is no pleading internal monologue, because everything that i believe in tells me there is no rational point. When beyond rationalisation, its just blind and aimless pleading.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Now I\'m not very educated in religion at all, but I like talking about it. Anyone who wishes to explain what really happened 2000 years ago, please enlighten me.
-RscuRngr


I don\'t agree with Grant R. Jeffrey\'s futuristic views of the endtimes but as for the whole Jesus thing he sums it up pretty nicely. There\'s no question as to whether Jesus existed. The historical data is proof positive that he lived. But was he the Savior? Christians believe He was Jews believe He was not. I\'ve posted some of Jeffrey\'s commentary below:

\"The Jews believed that the Messiah, the prophet which Moses spoke about, would come and deliver them from Roman bondage and set up a kingdom where they would be the rulers. Two of the disciples, James and John, even asked to sit at Jesus\' right and left in His cabinet when He came into His glory. The people of Jerusalem also thought He would deliver them. They shouted praises to God for the mighty works they had seen Jesus do, and called out \"Hosanna, save us\" when he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. They treated Him like a conquering king. Then when He allowed Himself to be arrested, tried and crucified on a cursed cross, the people quit believing that He was the promised prophet. They rejected their Messiah.

Therefore, the promised kingdom was postponed. But God is a covenant keeping God and the kingdom promises are still in force for Israel. Paul told the Roman Church, \"I do not desire, brethren that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written, The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sin....For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable\" (Romans 11:23-27,29).

Note that Paul tells the Church that the spiritual blindness of Israel is a \"mystery\" that had not previously been revealed. For thousands of years Israel had been the one nation that looked to God while the Gentile nations generally rejected the light and chose to live in spiritual darkness. Israel and her inspired prophets revealed monotheism--one God who was personally interested in mankind\'s destiny of heaven or hell, the path to salvation, the written Word with the Ten Commandments. Yet Israel rejected her prophesied Messiah, and the promises of the kingdom of heaven were postponed. A veil of spiritual blindness fell upon the eyes of the Jews who previously were the most spiritually discerning people. As Paul explained, this hardening in part of Israel led to the blessing of the Gentiles who would believe in Jesus and accept Him as Lord and Savior.

The Jews rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do--destroy evil and all their enemies, in this case the Romans, and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world. The prophecies in Isaiah and Psalm 22 described a suffering Messiah who would be persecuted and killed, but they chose to focus on those prophecies that discussed His glorious victories, not His crucifixion.

The commentaries in the Talmud, written before the onset of Christianity, clearly discuss the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 and puzzle over how these would be fulfilled with the glorious setting up of the Kingdom of the Messiah. After the Church used theses prophecies to prove the claims of Christ, the Jews took the position that the prophecies did not refer to the Messiah, but to Israel or some other person.

During a recent research trip to Israel, I searched in several Jewish theological bookstores in the old city of Jerusalem for some specific material on the Temple and the Messiah. Several times, rabbinical students engaged me in conversation regarding my research. First, they were curious about my genuine interest as a Christian in Israel and in Jewish commentaries on the Bible. Then invariably they turned the conversation to Jesus and His claims to be the Jewish Messiah. The words, \"He could not have been the promised Messiah because he failed, he was killed,\" were spoken in each conversation. They could see that Jesus fulfilled many Old Testament Messianic prophecies--His birth in Bethlehem, coming out of Egypt, living in Nazareth, being preceded by a messenger, awesome miraculous powers and tremendous teaching. However, they still felt as their fathers did two thousand years before: Jesus had failed, he was killed: Therefore, he could not be the glorified Messiah.

During Jesus\' ministry, the Jews continually asked His identity because they knew that, according to the prophet Daniel, the Messiah was supposed to come at that time. Jewish commentaries, even during the Middle Ages, admit that the Messiah was prophesied to appear before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. They knew that the book of Daniel declared that the Messiah would come sixty-nine weeks of years (483 biblical years of 360 days each) from the decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. That well known decree was given to Nehemiah on the first day of Nisan, March 14, 445 B.C. The final year was A.D. 32 (See: The Unexpected King) The growing expectations of the Messiah\'s coming is reflected in the scribes\' explanation to King Herod that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. It is noteworthy that, before Jesus, no one falsely claimed to be Messiah. First came the genuine, then the copies.\"

-Grant R. Jeffrey

That\'s the basic break down of the confusion. The irony is I was going to try to explain this off the top of my head but after praying I was lead to this excellent essay on the topic.

There is argument to whether the Palms 22 read \"Like a lion (Hebrew KeAri), they are at my hands and feet.\" or \"They pierced my hands and feet.\" But the words \"Like a Lion\" makes no sense in the context. Nowhere in the bible does God brings someone\'s enemy\'s down to their \"hands and feet.\" God bought the enemies of Isreal to Isreal\'s feet not to their hands and feet. The passage reads:

Psa 22:13ÂÂ
They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psa 22:14ÂÂ
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
ÂÂ
Psa 22:15ÂÂ
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
ÂÂ
Psa 22:16ÂÂ
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
ÂÂ
This is the prophesy of Jesus being crucified many years before cruxifiction was a know way of excecution. (Crucifixion was bought to the Jews by the Roman).
ÂÂ
Psa 22:18ÂÂ
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Another prophesy fulfilled. After Jesus was crucified the soilders gambled for his clothes.

Isaiah has long been associated with the prophesies of Jesus. Here\'s more info from another source. This scripture is taken from Isaiah 53:3 which reads:

\"He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (-New International Version translation)

The Messiah would suffer and be rejected
Bible passage: Isaiah 53:3
Prophet: Isaiah
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 32 AD
In Isaiah 52:13-53:12, the prophet foreshadowed the life and mission of Jesus, who was born about 700 years later. In Isaiah 53:3, the prophet said that a servant of God would be rejected and despised. Jesus was indeed rejected by many people living in the land of Israel, and He was later crucified by the Romans.
It has been claimed by some scholars that Isaiah 52:13-53:12 actually refers to Israel as a nation and not to an individual Messiah. But, at least some of the ancient Rabbis believed that this passage from Isaiah is indeed about an individual Messiah. Hal Lindsey, in his book, \"The Promise of Bible Prophecy,\" wrote the following: Rabbi Moshe Alshekh, one of the great seventeenth-century expositors from Safed, Israel, said \"Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the King Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view.

- Research and commentary by George and Raymond Konig of www.AboutBibleProphecy.com (\"http://www.AboutBibleProphecy.com\")

I hope this helps.

-The Bat

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks for that Jambat. It\'s good to read the input from lots of sources. I\'ll check out the web-link this week.

[Lucky]

So sorry about your Mother....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks, Lucky.