Why am I a masochist???

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK - so I like to beat myself up. (emotionally speaking) I got an IM from ETWG (Emotional train-wreck girl) and it got around to her inviting me over for dinner. I accepted like an idiot and headed over to her place with \"take n bake\" cookies and a quart of ice cream (i can never show up at a woman\'s house empty handed) so I figured she was making dinner - I brought dessert! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif Anyways she had it in her head that she had botched dinner and carried on about it while I opened a bottle of wine and reassured her that it would be fine - I threw in the line \"I didn\'t come for the food I came for the company\" maybe a good line, maybe not, but it was the truth. Anyway, we had dinner (it was fine) and then headed for the sofa and talked, watched TV. Hair flipping, leg crossing/uncrossing, and a giddy chattiness (maybe the wine?) carried on for a while. Around 11:00 she was starting to doze off and I told her I needed to get home. I gave her a hug and a kiss, and then another kiss, and told her I\'d call her tomorrow...
What was the point of this story? oh yeah - I wasn\'t wearing any <fresh> pheros, but I had on a sweater I had sprayed last week, and residuals on my body from yesterday. She definately wants to take things slow, but at this pace I\'ll be ready to retire by the time we get to home plate /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif and I\'m only 26!!!
Oh well - I guess I just needed to vent. The heart wants what the heart wants and my brain is just along for the ride.

[Watcher]

If they want to take things slow best survival tactic flirt around withdrawl some attention ASAP test the waters for any jealously and if present then pressure to move things quicker. If she isnt interested she will show it by not caring less moving in another direction, this will prove to you if she is serious or not. Better to sort these things out early so you can go find someone else that is interested in you, i know it sounds over the top maybe you aint a masochist, i just test to see if movement is possible if not i will retreat to me.

Protect youre emotional state ignore all the boys out there who like to screech their cars in testostrone driven rage, sorry ive just had enough idiots doing 100kms in a 50km zone i live in a residential area and the hoons are morons maybe some exposure to Anone might calm em down.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Give us a picture of your fantasy scenario with this girl. You go over for dinner and bring desert (nice move btw) and .. what happens? I\'d like to hear it if it had unfolded just exactly according to your wishes. Then maybe we could find some matches between the fantasy and the reality.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

hmmm...good question FTR.
Let me give a little bit of history first.
I met this woman (she\'s 24) back in June. I absolutely HATED her. I almost threw her overboard. She was the most obnoxious, inconsiderate, loud-mouthed, high-on-herself, queen bitch of all things unholy. For 4 months I wouldn\'t be seen in the same city block as this horrible nasty woman!
One night a friend called me up and invited me out to a Jap. rest. for dinner with a group of people. When I arrived there was a group of about 8 people and HER. The she-devil straight from hells gate.
now here\'s the kicker! She was sweet! she was nice and flirty and fun, joking and chatting, and asked if I wanted to go out sometime (BTW this is all LONG before any pheros).
So we started dating for about a month + - until she told me she had a thing for some bartender downtown...that lasted about a week. We had hooked up every weekend (no sex though) and often slept together at her place. And then it was just OVER. /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif
well about a week ago we were hanging out again and I was trying to pretend that I wasn\'t hurt/confused/head over heels for her...
So when I went to dinner tonight, I guess I wasn\'t sure what to expect - maybe a \"I [censored] up\" you\'re the one I want?? At least some sort of sign. I was trying to read her body language. and it looked promising - legs crossed towards me, re-positioning so her head was next to my shoulder etc...
DOH - I don\'t get it - there are a hundred women I could go out and just f*ck, but i want the one I can\'t seem to get... grrr soo frustrating. I hated this woman and then she snuck up and stole my heart. Dammit I hate being like this!

[koolking1]

geez how many strong signals do you need. Make an overt sexual gesture and see what happens. All she can do is rebuff you and then, if she does, you can get on with your life.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, what KoolKing1 said.Why no sex? I\'m assuming you must have tried. Please tell me you tried. ... if you did, what reason did she give for saying no? Did she tell the bartender no?

[xvs]

If you sleep at a girl\'s house more than once without making out with her, write the whole thing off and just be \"friends\".

Or perhaps you just don\'t know the signals and responses.

If a girl gives you the signals that she\'s interested (turning her body towards you, looking into your eyes, smiling, brushing against you), the next thing to do is to respond (turn your body towards her, look into her eyes, brush against her).

Then she touches you on the arm or shoulder or you touch her on the arm or shoulder, you brush her neck affectionately... and then you hold a gaze for a while and she\'s close, and you kiss her gently.

Things usually progress quickly from there.

Or on the other hand, she turns away from you, won\'t look into your eyes for long, shys away from you when you brush against her, flinches from your touch... those are \"move along now\" signals. Particularly the shying away from touch. A shy girl may not be able to meet your eyes all the time, but she won\'t flinch when you touch her if she likes you.

Many guys find this harder than it has to be because they get nervous, they ignore the signals, they\'re afraid of what will happen if they\'ve misinterpreted it, their hands get sweaty, etc.

The important thing to do is to stay relaxed and realize that it really isn\'t a big deal. She\'s either interested or not. If she\'s not giving the signals, she most probably isn\'t interested. If she\'s interested, she\'ll respond. If she doesn\'t respond, you laugh it off and realize that you should look for the next gal...

[Irish]

What\'s the problem? Sounds like you had a nice dinner date. Put that one behind you and plan the next one.

Sounds like you want her to have emotional feelings for you too - it\'s not just a sex thing. There\'s ways to work that, even apart from immediately having sex. Most people don\'t realize that, and fail to form the deeper bonds, even in sexual relationships.

Anyway, set up dates and encounters, try not to reveal your feelings verbally. Focus on her, and talk about her - not the \'relationship\'. Fight the urge to vent your feelings to her, and try not to be self-conscious and overly-sensitive to her \'rejections\' (when you\'ve got it bad you tend to view the smallest slight as a major rejection). She\'ll need some time to catch up to where you are emotionally. Good luck.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish - I\'m glad you get it. It\'s not a get laid thing, though it would definately be a bonus. And yes I have tried. We\'ll get so far and then the iron curtain drops. From what I understand I made it \"further\" than most.
As for the \"signals\" they\'re so mixed and matched it confuses the hell out of me! But at least she doesn\'t flinch away. I think she just got burned really badly in her last relationship and hasn\'t healed yet.

[Elana]

Is it possible she still isn\'t over the man that broke her heart? Could you be the rebound guy?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If I was you and didn\'t wish to forget about it, at this point I would invite her for dinner and would make my best to impress her like hell.

Now the thing is if you want to impress her, you need to know many details about her. You need to prove her you where listening to her when she spoke to you (you did pay attention right ? I hope for you you did!). You need details like her favorite food /wine&alcohol /music /color /smell /ambiance /clothes /time of the day /day of the week for dinner/kind of guys who turns her on (usefull to cook the perfect phero mix)... Another important thing to know if you can get this info one way or another would be to know when she\'s ovulating *very very usefull info!*

Then all you would have to do would be to invite her for *her* perfect dinner of dream at your place during her horny week of the month. During dinner she would be impressed to notice how attentive you are and how much you care for her. It would be an amazing evening for both of you and an automatic fu*k probably even before you reach dessert !

Take notes that for some women, the horny week of the month is also the time when they can become total bitchs so you better be careful !


IF it doesn\'t work, forget about it and be happy because it would mean there\'s nothing you can do about it.

[jose]

If you hadn\'t had sex yet by now it\'s a waste of time to look for a meaningful relationship with this woman. Just be friends and that\'s it, and look for another women that will show their affection for you. The bartender incident was your first clue. I know you said its not about getting laid, but if you\'re not at this point of being physical the relationship is in trouble already. It\'s obvious she has issues, so move on.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanx Jose - that\'s the same advice I\'m getting from my friends around here. I talk to her roommate, and she says basically that if it wasn\'t such awkward timing I\'d be in like flint. \"She just needs a friend right now\" - the words of doom /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif
I know from conversations that it probably has absolutely nothing to do with me, my actions, or my pheros - I think this is all on her. It\'s just humbling to be rejected - it doesn\'t happen too often to me, so I guess it was about time I was brought back down to earth.
I got the IR colognes today - next time I see her I\'ll have to ask her what she thinks of my new \"cool scent\" - heck if I can\'t charm my way into her, maybe I can phero the pants off her /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif - I\'ll let y\'all know how it goes.
did I just say \"y\'all\"?? - jeez I\'ve been in the south too long /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Then, don\'t become \"just\" her friend or you\'ll be stuck in that role forever.

I would see her like no more than once a week or even less until she\'s ready and only then I would plan the amazing dinner.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'m trying to paddle back up the river away from LJBF Land. Hence the sweet little kisses last night. \"Just Friends\" don\'t kiss. I think she wants me to stick around until she\'s ready. Sort of the \"I\'m not ready yet, but don\'t go anywhere because when I\'m ready I want you to be the one\"

[jose]

No problem RscuRngr, I just hate seeing a guy waiting for something that\'s probably not going to happen. So in the meantime try to have some fun and go out and meet other women.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The bartender thing is what\'s tripping me up. See, I would read that as, you\'re not coming across, so it\'s time to introduce a rival and see how you act.

Isn\'t it ironic (dontcha think) that the true sign of love and affection is NOT to have sex with someone.

Pass me an Advil, somebody, please...

[Irish]

It takes guts, persistence, and a little skill to pursue a real affair, especially when you have extreme feelings the other doesn\'t share yet. In any case, it is ridiculous to give up. To give up only means you are too focused on your own ego. Or you are too weak to take some rejection along the way.

I\'ve been right where you are bro, and I can tell you I turned it around over a years time, and had the affair of a lifetime. And I had to steal her away from a young handsome wealthy doctor! I fought through setbacks and much self-doubt, wanted to give up several times, but I\'ll always be glad I didn\'t.

Some things I learned:

You\'ll have to restrain your feelings. She\'ll realize you\'re hung up on her anyway, so don\'t look needy by rattling on about it. She may be trying to decide about you, or comparing you to someone else. She won\'t be impressed by what you feel, she\'ll be impressed by how you make her feel. Focus on that, and that only. Don\'t talk about your own feelings, talk about her.

Continue to see other girls - date, casual, friends, whatever. Make sure you regularly keep company with other females. This helps you keep perspective and not get obsessed. Plus if you\'re seeing other girls it proves you are desirable to women, not some lovesick weirdo.

See her regularly, but not too often. Make sure every time she\'s with you she has a great great time. Never whine or complain she doesn\'t love you enough. Focus on her and giving her great times. Eliminate the word \'I\' from your conversation with her. You know her, so flatter her vanities, and comfort her insecurities.

After you\'ve done all that, now you get to work. When you\'re sure of some kind of bond, even friendship, withdraw that from her and watch for effect. If she becomes emotional at all, you have a chance. Then begin a cycle of withdrawal and restoration, working her emotions. This takes skill and perception, and is risky, but is the best chance you have in one-sided situations like you find yourself in now. You must find a way to engage her emotions.

It boils down to restraining your own churning emotions, and working to instill emotions in her. Gotta move her past the analytical stage and over to the emotional plane, where you are now.

If it sounds like a game, well it is. Women have been doing it to us for centuries… because it works! You\'ll have to quit reacting to her feelings of the moment, and begin to work to instill the feelings in her you want her to have. There\'s no guarantees, but it beats the hell out of walking away and crying about it. At least you gave yourself a shot with her and didn\'t quit.

As Ovid said, pursuit of a loved one inflicts many more hardships than battle. Even if you don\'t win her over, you\'ll feel better for having actively worked for it. It beats passively hoping she\'ll \'decide\' in your favor, or worse - just giving up.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think Irish is a wise man.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, very. I\'m a big fan.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

(damn! he\'s stealing in my fan pool !) /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[SonnyBlack]

POSTED BY IRISH:
\"You\'ll have to restrain your feelings. She\'ll realize you\'re hung up on her anyway, so don\'t look needy by rattling on about it. She may be trying to decide about you, or comparing you to someone else. She won\'t be impressed by what you feel, she\'ll be impressed by how you make her feel. Focus on that, and that only. Don\'t talk about your own feelings, talk about her.

Continue to see other girls - date, casual, friends, whatever. Make sure you regularly keep company with other females. This helps you keep perspective and not get obsessed. Plus if you\'re seeing other girls it proves you are desirable to women, not some lovesick weirdo.

See her regularly, but not too often. Make sure every time she\'s with you she has a great great time. Never whine or complain she doesn\'t love you enough. Focus on her and giving her great times. Eliminate the word \'I\' from your conversation with her. You know her, so flatter her vanities, and comfort her insecurities.

After you\'ve done all that, now you get to work. When you\'re sure of some kind of bond, even friendship, withdraw that from her and watch for effect. If she becomes emotional at all, you have a chance. Then begin a cycle of withdrawal and restoration, working her emotions. This takes skill and perception, and is risky, but is the best chance you have in one-sided situations like you find yourself in now. You must find a way to engage her emotions.

It boils down to restraining your own churning emotions, and working to instill emotions in her. Gotta move her past the analytical stage and over to the emotional plane, where you are now.

If it sounds like a game, well it is. Women have been doing it to us for centuries… because it works! You\'ll have to quit reacting to her feelings of the moment, and begin to work to instill the feelings in her you want her to have. There\'s no guarantees, but it beats the hell out of walking away and crying about it. At least you gave yourself a shot with her and didn\'t quit.

As Ovid said, pursuit of a loved one inflicts many more hardships than battle. Even if you don\'t win her over, you\'ll feel better for having actively worked for it. It beats passively hoping she\'ll \'decide\' in your favor, or worse - just giving up\"

I was reading this and I just realized this...isnt it ridiculous what we men have to go through just to get with a female. I mean really, they are such [censored] complicated creatures who love to play these stupid little games..i mean it really makes me sick. We always have to be there to comfort, to attend to their needs, to tell them well help solve their problems (since theyre all emotional wrecks by nature) but at the same time assure them that they are independent and can do anything that men can...to tell them they look beautiful...to impress them constantly by sending them flowers..keeping stuff new and exciting or else they might get bored with us and go with some other [censored] who impresses her the right way. Not to mention the fact that there will always be someone else to go out with them in case their boyfriend ever leaves them.blah blah blah...and for what..I mean what do we men really get from them in return??Sex??I mean it has to be more than that.I have always looked down on the whole dating rituals between men and women because of these reasons..we men have to put too much on the line...and the rewards seem very small in comparison...

IM SORRY FOR RANTING BUT ITS JUST THAT RESCURNGRS STORY REMINDED ME OF WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN ME AND MY EX SOME TIME AGO...AND AS SOON AS I STARTED TREATING HER LIKE CRAP SHE FELL BACK IN LOVE WITH ME...I JUST HATE THESE GAMES MEN AND WOMEN HAVE TO PLAY WITH EACH OTHER...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

*hug*

*here`s a beer*

Sometimes my girlfriend tells me I`m an angel and that she doesn`t understand why I`m still with her after all the troubles she`s causing with her emotional instabilities.

Then I just smile.

It makes me feel good about myself. I like to take a wrecked train in my arms, duck tape it with love and put it back on track.

I must be an angel.

*drink beer*

*burp*

[**DONOTDELETE**]

big chuckle

Alchemist, your girlfriend is one lucky woman walking this earth. Massages. Dinners. Specially mixed perfumes.
Must be nice, that\'s all I can say.

I\'d buy you a round, no question.

[Irish]

SB - I do have to admit that sometimes it just seems like too much damn work to make a woman happy. For a few years I didn\'t bother to try. Problem was, I wound up alone in front of the tv fantasizing about having a life. So now, I do go to real effort to make a girl happy, but I try not to wear myself out. Inject some fun into it, like I\'m playing a part in a movie, instead of playing some deadly serious life-game. Works for me. But I hear what you\'re saying.

Is it worth it? Who knows, but we seem driven to pursue them whether we really like it or not. Is it worth it to the buck deer to smash heads with his buddies for the right to copulate with the does? Maybe not - but this stuff is so deep in us we probably don\'t have much choice. Women are selective and demanding, and that probably makes sense for them to get the best genes for their offspring and the best supprt while they bear and raise a child. And that sets up a competition between men to please women and oust rival men. And all that develops into the gameplaying we all get sick of from time to time...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, I guess I must have my own flaws too but the package seems a good deal ;-)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

This thread really blew up - I should have posted it in the off topic area. Anyways. I\'m not whiney about my feelings for her when we talk. I always play it super cool, and try to give her space. I was afraid that she didn\'t know that I was really into her, so I used the \'ol back-channel message - telling her roommate that I was head over heels... Her roomie likes me so I\'m sure it will come out at some point. As for retreating - when this bar-tender incident occured I cut her off completely - didn\'t call didn\'t go to \"her\" bar, said hey when we crossed paths but left it at that. When she realized the cocktail jockey wasn\'t working out she called me to make it very clear that it was over with him. And it was she who invited me to her place for dinner last night. This is why I\'m confused! All the signs point to YES! (body language, phone calls, etc...) I think she really wants something to happen but is being verry verry cautious and gaurded. Making baby steps so to say. Anyhow. Thank you all for your insight. I apppreciate getting a neutral party\'s point of view especially from women. Like I said I think it\'s out of my hands - I just have to chill, play it cool and let her work out this stuff at her own pace.
BTW - What is the payoff for winning the woman? Sex?
Sex is a miniscule part of it - It\'s being able to hold her in your arms, snuggle on the sofa, know that she doesn\'t like pepperoni on her pizza, and have that someone who you think about when she\'s not there with you.
JMHO

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I take part of that back - sex isn\'t a miniscule part of it. It\'s just not my #1 reason for persuing a woman until she catches me.

[Watcher]

I had that problem a while back waited around kept trying to get out of LJBF land but in the end she just aint budging so i pulled right back - the usuall comments through acquaintances that she wanted to know if i was pissed , i just said busy with different things so since then she hasnt come to talk to me so i know that it wastn going anywhere wasnt to serious either.
Therefore i now have new targets to pursue and am quick to pick up and move on before i get led by the balls around for another 12 months of wasted time, im hooking up with the ones i can get in flint with instead of chasing the one i cant get.

I REFUSE BY MY ACTIONS TO MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN the ones i know i can get are the ones that im chasing no more high maintance string along chick anymore.

[a.k.a.]

Rscu,
I had to read over your posts several times to make sure I got the story right. (Why do you think they call it dope?)
I hope I’m wrong, but it sounds like you’re saying this girl needs time to get over being dumped by the guy she dumped you for.

If so, don’t you need a little time yourself? Say a lifetime or two?

Some experts say masochists get off on being hurt and humiliated. Others say they get off on the anxiety this provokes in others. (e.g. That scene in “Fight Club” where Ed Norton beats himself up in front of his boss.)
But it seems you’re not getting off at all. It seems like you’re just trying to be good and strong and optimistic. In which case you deserve better.

[proteus]

RscuRngr wrote: \"All the signs point to YES! (body language, phone calls, etc...) I think she really wants something to happen but is being verry verry cautious and gaurded. Making baby steps so to say.<cut> Like I said I think it\'s out of my hands - I just have to chill, play it cool and let her work out this stuff at her own pace.>>>>>

This is exactly the mistake you\'re making. It is not and \"should not\" be out of your hands. This is exactly the mistake I used to make in the past before I learnt anew. Your attitude is all wrong and you will not get anywhere with her until you read the signs she\'s sending you (she\'s waving you in) and do what you know you need to do - she knows what\'s on your mind, and at this point figures you probably aren\'t going to do anything/don\'t have the balls to etc (I\'ve done this myself in the past so don\'t want to be unduly harsh, just telling it as I see it). as long as you \"choose\" to believe it is out of your hands it will remain so.

[marv14yag]

Dude, you know what you need to do? I mean, sure, this that, all this...

if you are getting off by the anxiety you REALLY must not have a life...

Listen, this isn\'t as hard as you think...

Just, be strait with this girl, talk to her...Don\'t play games, and have her lure you in...You need hand, upper hand that is..She\'s either playing you..Or someting, but, etiher way...What does is matter?

You have 2 objects, be with this girl, leave this girl...Or, you can work on it...Just, DON\'T MAKE IT INTO A DRAMA THING! Chill, talk to her, don\'t be with her, whatever, just, chill out...

Bart

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Best advice yet Bart. I don\'t know when she got a hold on me, but damn! It\'s a very rare thing that a woman gets to me. Just caught me by surprise really. I realized it when I re-read this thread. I\'m blowing it wayyyy out of proportion. I\'m going out tonight - and I have the cure for this stupidity /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
As they say if you fall of a horse, you can bitch and moan, or you can go and jump on another horse /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
(Not that she resembles a horse by any means)

PS - I don\'t get off on drama or anxiety - I try to keep it to an absolute minimum in my life.

[Funlover]

Irish, we want the whole book. Give it to us, please... I\'ll buy two copies for sure.

Funlover

[koolking1]

Hey Bud, sounds like you are on the right track now. She\'ll come around if she really likes you, but, if she begins the \"I wanna be friends\" stuff I would say to her, \"hmm, friends like in F&ck buddies\"? You already have a lot or enough friends, don\'t you - am sure you do. Be well my friend! Have some fun cause one day you\'ll get married and then have kids and life will become one giant responsibilty.