View Full Version : ~ Like a Dream ~

11-09-2002, 12:13 AM
Could not ask for more in this life time. It took until the second night but that just made it all the better. In 20 years if by chance she crosses paths with some part of this mix she will look back in great and wild dreamy wonder !
Oh What A Night ............

7 parts Gucci Nobile
3 parts SOE
1 part PI

Ghostclown home safe and sound.

11-09-2002, 04:17 AM
Details ghost guy, details - some lady you picked up at a bar or what??

11-09-2002, 04:56 AM
Is this the girl who is a virgin ghost? I know you got a lot of heat the last time you were here.

11-09-2002, 04:57 AM
Did you also employ the lolly pop trick?

11-09-2002, 03:50 PM
Em.... yea it was the virgin, and I just might be the luckiest son of a bitch to ever post to this forum, but now i am becoming way to \"attached\" and some form of crack up
looks to be in the cards.

Tell you guys something... Young women who run X-country have Ice skaters asses without the attitude. One in maybe 1000 could be so fine !!!

I shall never be this lucky again, in this life.


11-09-2002, 04:04 PM
Oh no...You aren\'t the lucky one. Your wife is actually the luckiest woman alive. How wonderful it must be to have a husband as great as you. /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

11-09-2002, 04:08 PM
Makes me so f*ckin\' sick.

11-09-2002, 04:09 PM
Yup! He is about as big a pig as they come. Maybe he can have a three way with the virgin and his sister in law.

11-09-2002, 04:24 PM
LOL !!!!!!!! How sad!!!! lmao.

- Krish

11-09-2002, 04:38 PM
Ghostclown, I could have lived the rest of my life without ever reading another one of your posts. I SO hoped you were gone for good.

11-09-2002, 10:01 PM

This guy is one sick mutha. I\'m almost beginning to feel sorry for him. I was brought up to have compassion for the physically, MENTALLY and EMOTIONALLY challenged but I\'m only human and GC makes me wanna puke.


11-09-2002, 11:59 PM
It\'s fine to have different sexual morals, of course, and to disagree with someone\'s sexual morals.

But I don\'t think this should be a forum for judging someone due to their sexual choices (e.g., extramarital affairs), much less for abusive language. This is a forum wherein open discussion of sexuality is the norm. Moralistic verbal abuse may be open discussion too, but it\'s the kind that kills the rest of it.

Who nominated any of us as the czar of moral punishment?

We might look in our own closets first. How many of us has never thought of \"cheating?\" Even if some of us were so nominated, if one cheats with a sister-in-law, does that really make someone a \"pig\" and preserve the rest of us as normal, \"good people\"?

I\'ve been alive long enough to see that gossip and judgementalism is insecurity and self hate -- trying clumsily to make itself feel powerful and loved, at the expense of others.

Take it to the Jerry Springer show.

11-10-2002, 04:22 AM

Much of what you say is true and an inevitable consequence of the fact that all moral attitudes are based on a personal belief system. I\'m not around this forum often enough to know what GC is referring to but I have seen enough of his posts to know that his actions would not come within my own belief system . I for one am a bit fed up with this man who is obviously relishing the attention he gets here. Other than this post, I will not get involved in a debate with him over \"rights\" and \"wrongs\" since there is little chance in us agreeing how these words are spelt let alone their meaning.

I fail to see though why this forum should be a platform for his self-gratification.


11-10-2002, 05:36 AM
It\'s one thing to be in a loveless marriage where, due to hopelessly comingled funds and the needs of minor children, divorce is not a viable option for either party, so one or both discretely takes a lover. Preferably someone completely unknown to his spouse, outside her social circle, and far enough away that the chances of the two ever meeting are nill. It\'s another thing to set about to f*ck your wife\'s own sister. And then come on a forum to tell the world about it. Failing that, to then give yourself the thrill of debauching a virgin, and come back to tell the forum how like a dream it was, what a great ass she had -- but Oh, guess what? There\'s an emotional attachment forming which could lead to a crack-up of some kind. Well, GEE, who couldn\'t have see that train wreck coming? Not somebody who uses women only for his own ego gratification, can\'t think ahead further than his nose, and doesn\'t care what kind of havoc he wreaks in other people\'s lives as long as he gets his dick wet. And his success in this dubious endeavor was partly due to pheromones! How charming! I\'m sure Bruce is proud. Infidelity is NOT the issue, and my condemnation without apology of his egregious behavior and, further, his adolescent wish to be acknowledged and congratulated for it is not about that. The issue is his emphasis on sexual gratification at any cost. Can you even imagine the grief and sense of betrayal it would have caused his wife if she\'d found out, and the damage it would have done to her entire family, her closest blood ties? If Ghostclown did consider the consequences, in his final analysis, they were not more important than his gratification. He was gleeful about the prospect. Just as he was gleeful about being this woman\'s first partner, knowing he really had nothing to offer her, it being very likely she, at least, would form an attachment -- the set up was perfect for a heartbreak -- but he doesn\'t care. He popped a cherry! It was like a dream! Woo-hoo, boys! Look what I did, and pheromones helped! Am we supposed to sympathize with him because of having ever had an impulse to cheat? I can\'t and won\'t -- an impulse differs from a plan, thoughts differ from actions, and the differences are important. Does it make him a pig a priori because he considered fukking his wife\'s sister? YES, it does. Not that he thought of it. That he actually contrived to undertake it. He\'s a sleazy, criminal, vomitous wretch and I wish he would go away and never come back. I\'m not gossiping -- I\'m saying it aloud, in public. You can say what you like about what you surmise my villification of him to reveal about my own psyche or sense of self-worth; in return, I would caution you not to open your mind so far that your brain falls out. It does not make me feel superior to say that he is bad. Perhaps some self-examination is called for in the matter of sanctimoniousness -- perhaps it makes some people feel superior to adopt a Christlike manner and chastise people for being offended at behavior that can only be termed, at best, offensive. How self-righteous is that? It makes me and many others sick to read Ghostclown\'s posts AND HE KNOWS IT. There are times when disgust and moral indignation are the only appropriate responses, and this is one. If it brings discussion to a halt on this thread, so much the better. His exploits fail to edify.

11-10-2002, 10:00 AM
There is no morality that alone makes moral, and every ethic that affirms itself exclusively kills too much good strength and costs humanity too dearly. The deviants,who are so frequently the inventive and fruitful ones, shall no longer be sacrificed; it shall not even be concidered infamous to deviate from morality. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche ~

Your Fruitful Deviant

11-10-2002, 10:02 AM
Quote whoever you like; you\'re a pig.

11-10-2002, 10:04 AM
I 2nd to that

11-10-2002, 11:53 AM
Sanctimonious? Christlike? I don\'t know. In Oregon this is probably typical nonjudgementalism. I admit judgementalism pushes my buttons. Maybe it was being raised Catholic. I really don\'t like condemnation. It pisses me off. I don\'t think anybody deserves it. The world needs an absolutely huuuuuge dose of the exact opposite right now. The wars will just keep getting worse without this. Think mushroom clouds. The whole \"squashing the bad guys\" approach will eventually fail in a big way.

Guess what? It is absolutely impossible to open your mind too much, as long as you\'re capable of thinking! Oh, but your brain might fall out. And the world drops off just past the horizon.

I don\'t think infidelity or \"debauchery\" will ever kill the planet, however. I think I\'ll go \"debauch a virgin\" myself tomorrow. So what? It\'s OK in our society for an older woman to \"deflower\" a younger man. Even applauded as a sacred ritual in many places. Why not the converse? Who are you to say who has what to offer who? Oh I get it. He\'s married? Oh my God, an affair. They weren\'t even discreet on the other side of town! Well I never! He should get a hooker like a proper God fearin\' cheater.

Who are you to judge someone for using someone? You\'ve never used anyone? How many men have you slept with? (a rhetorical question only) Had phone sex with? (ditto.) None of these had anything to do with your ego? I\'ve used lots of women, and lots of them have used me. I lost count long ago. I also had a child out of wedlock. All of it was for my ego. I\'m not sure I\'d change a thing. I\'m neither proud nor disgraced. I try to treat people well, to be sensitive and responsible. But I fail often. Live and learn.

Incidentally, the ghost guy said he\'s worried about getting hurt himself, as he is getting attached, not that the other person might get hurt. Maybe she used him. How do you know? Is there a gossip databank on the web or something?

Your last post is full of hate, aggression, and rage. You are apparently proud of seeing someone as subhuman. Congratulations. We\'re about ready to take Iraq out and God knows who else in due time, because it\'s so freakin easy to see somebody else as flushable scum.

Why do someone else\'s mistakes matter so much to you? Aren\'t you busy? If he pushes your buttons, can\'t you just say that? Your post sounds like a prosecuting attorney, in the trial of a lifetime, trying to put away a pedophile.

We can forgive genocide and environmental destruction easier than blatant infidelity, judging by our reactions to the past few presidents. We live in freakin Springerville.

People cause each other pain due to their relationship foibles and mistakes. This is the normal lot of human beings, half of which divorce, and half of the rest of which cheat. Is this good? No. And all these types of actions can and do break apart families. I\'ve suffered a loss myself. But making us all into Great Satans is also \"unedifying\". Life goes on and people heal. They learn. And they have scars. It sucks. But there are no Satans, and few pure victims. Thank goodness.

This person did nothing to you. As far as I know, he simply reported a relatively private fantasy, wish and experience in a sexuality forum. He mistakenly thought it safe to do so. I honestly don\'t recall him attracting much more attention than the other braggards on this forum. I\'ve been one too on at least one occasion. Maybe I missed something. If in fact he has been repeatedly grandstanding, intrusive, demanding attention, and intentionally causing emotional disturbance, I guess that\'s not exactly appropriate either. But jeez, can\'t we just ask him not to do that, or whatever? No one is asking you to \"sympathize\". But calling somebody you don\'t know a \"pig\" (not to mention the other things) for considering blatant infidelity is no different than calling someone a \"Ho\" for it. It\'s abusive. And the dictionary I checked mentioned nothing about \"public vs. behind someone\'s back\" in any of its definitions of \"gossip.\"

11-10-2002, 11:58 AM
It appears Ghostclown\'s found himself a champion.

11-10-2002, 12:07 PM
A bit of a catty reply? Yes. I\'ll be leading a charging herd of pigs over the hill, fornicating with every virgin we see, and breaking homes willy-nilly. Oh, I get it. Now I \'m just like the \"bad guy\". \"Everybody judge him too!\". Brilliant. And consistent.

I never said I approved of his actions. That\'s beside the point.

11-10-2002, 12:10 PM
I\'m with you on this one FTR. Guys like him give the good guys a bad impression. *sigh*

- Krish

11-10-2002, 12:18 PM
Good for you! When your wife fucks your brother (your cousin, your best friend) and you are humiliated in the face of your most intimate circle, let me know how it feels. When your little sister loses her virginity to a married man and gets her heart broken, be sure and write. I\'m sure we\'ll all take his side. After all, sh*t happens. God forbid anyone be blamed or asked to take responsibility. Or that anyone be angry at someone else\'s blatant disregard for another\'s emotional well-being. As to how I spend my time ... you\'ve brought this up before, Doc. It is apparently your opinion that I spend too much time on this forum. Fortunately, I don\'t care much about your opinions ... apart from perfumery and pheromones, so far, they don\'t impress me much. But since we\'re on the subject - you\'ve been polishing your response all afternoon. Shall I send you a good book to read, to better occupy your time than defending sociopaths?

11-10-2002, 12:34 PM
I can understand where you\'re coming from on this FTR and others who\'ve said the same, but I reserve judgement (not coz I feel doing so makes me morally superior ) but simply because I am definitely not without \"sin\" - never done anything like this, but I\'m sure I\'ve violated someone\'s morals somewhere sometime everyday of my life so who am I to condemn. And I think we all will get kicked by karma for the wrong we do at some point so....

11-10-2002, 12:41 PM
Cheers & kudos to you Dr., couldn\'t agree with you more.

11-10-2002, 12:43 PM
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke Ohmygod, it gets better -- Pet and DrSmellThis now side with Ghostclown. Hey, great minds think alike. That made my day, I\'m through. lol

11-10-2002, 12:48 PM
I don\'t appreciate that suggestion. I would never wish partner infidelity, or seeing one\'s sister hurt by an inconsiderate lover, on anyone. But if it happened to someone I knew I\'d be there for them, and I\'d be pissed. I\'d also try not to judge, as that wouldn\'t really help anybody.

I did have to experience this in my family a year ago. Long story short: Everybody but a few of us thought the guy was less than dirt (which is way different than being angry and dissaproving) for cheating.

Now he\'s changed his heart, and is busting his ass to put his family back together. He\'s still a pretty good father, and his wife and kids really wants this badly, but almost no one in the family will support the rebuilding. Their open villification of him may well sabotage the whole thing. I\'m not sure it\'s their right to do so.

11-10-2002, 12:52 PM
It\'s appropriate not to forgive sometimes, and it\'s appropriate to shun someone who glories in irresponsibility. You can\'t be on both sides, DrSmellThis. Sometimes you have to take a stand and take the heat for it. And P.S. -- you know good and well that as much as you drive me straight up a wall sometimes, DrSmellThis, if someone hurts you, I come to your defense and give you my sympathy -- I\'ve done it before and will again, in public and in pm\'s.

11-10-2002, 12:54 PM
Actually, I have to side with them as well.. Do I agree with the clown? Hell no. Do I even believe much of what he says? Nope again. I do, however, think he\'s got every right to create the crappy life he seems to be so industriously building for him self, free of verbal harassment or other assorted tongue clucking. If we were building a \"personal life disaster\" cookbook, I\'m sure his would be the first entry. We\'re not though, so I fail to undersand why people get so whipped up by him.

11-10-2002, 12:54 PM
There you go again, with the lump-together and judge technique. Very rhetorical! Good luck on your crusade to hunt down and punish the unfaithful.

11-10-2002, 12:57 PM
We\'ll just have to disagree on that one, I\'m afraid.

11-10-2002, 01:01 PM
DrSmellThis, it\'s a fine point, and that you continue to miss it amazes me. I am not trying to punish the unfaithful. As I said earlier, infidelity is not the point. Take a break and go back and read Ghostclown\'s posts. He doesn\'t care what he does to whom. He is not making mistakes. He premeditatively sets about to do destructive things. I\'m not on a crusade to hunt down and punish the unfaithful. I never said anything like that.Why don\'t you and I take it off the board if you\'re going to continue to single me out among the many people who object to Ghostclown?

11-10-2002, 01:04 PM
You are not alone FTR. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

11-10-2002, 01:09 PM
I certainly do not intend to single you out. I thought I even said that. Maybe I forgot to.

If I just missed a bunch of egregious premeditated psychopathic destruction, I stand corrected. I don\'t remember it that way. I wish I had time to go back through the posts. Bye for now. Peace.

11-10-2002, 01:20 PM
Yes, hang in there FTR. There are most likely more of us who agree with you than with the other viewpoint.

11-10-2002, 01:43 PM
Oh I guess we\'re just not all so high and mighty to judge people like you my dear Red Head. And it\'s not that he doesn\'t deserve to be called a pig, it\'s just that you really don\'t have the right to do it. Where do you live anyway? Salem?

11-10-2002, 01:51 PM
Bite me, Pet.

11-10-2002, 01:53 PM

11-10-2002, 03:50 PM
\"..... And it\'s not that he doesn\'t deserve to be called a pig, it\'s just that you really don\'t have the right to do it. \"

Well you acknowledge that he deserve\'s to be called a pig, but yet you condemn FTR for saying the very thing that you are obviously thinking. Obviously you came to same conclusion FTR did. what gives? And if it is true then IMO anybody has the right to say it. It is like the sky is blue but yet you say I have no right to say that.

11-10-2002, 04:10 PM
I thought that was pretty strange thing to say too. What does that even mean? Since when do people in a public forum not have the right to state their opinion? FTR thinks Ghostclown is a disgusting pig (as do I) and has every right to say so.

11-10-2002, 04:29 PM
I think Pet simply means that while we might have the right/ability to condemn/judge someone, it\'s not really our place to do so when you consider the larger order of things, for don\'t we all have discretions/sins we have committed. I\'d wager a bet if we were all privy to the complete and unadulterated life histories of all the members of this board some pretty unsavory things would come up from under the woodworks :-)

11-10-2002, 04:35 PM
That\'s kind of the problem I have with Ghost. It\'s not what he does as much as the fact that he boasts about it. If I were privy to the complete and unadulterated life histories of all the members, I would never judge them, unless of course they came on this forum bragging about how these unsavory things they did made them as proud as a peacock.

11-10-2002, 07:13 PM
There are men that I know of on the forum who have sex outside their marriages. I\'ve never said one word about it and I never would, nor do I disrespect them for the choice they\'ve made. If you can\'t divorce for whatever the reason, but despite your best efforts to work things out, you\'re not getting sex in your marriage and it goes on for months with no end in sight, I don\'t see why you have to be condemned to a life of celibacy. It\'s a tough call -- the people I know who go outside their marriages regret that they see no other option -- but sometimes it\'s making the best of a bad situation, and in any case, it\'s none of my business. They exercise discretion, though, and don\'t sh*t in their own back yards. Bring it home to yourself, put yourself in the position of being married to a woman who would intentionally screw your brother. For the rest of your life, you can\'t get away from the shame of that. He wants to screw around on his wife, I\'ve got nothing to say about it, don\'t know the circumstances, and things happen in marriages that nobody can understand, it\'s a very private matter. But don\'t set out a plan to plank your spouses\' sister and come on here and ask for help via pheromones, gloat about your potential conquest, and expect no one to boo and hiss. That\'s antisocial behavior. Ditto with \"taboo\" thoughts. Everybody\'s had a stray thought or even maybe enjoyed fantasies about someone it would be inappropriate to have sex with. There\'s no shame and no harm in that and I wouldn\'t jump on someone for talking about it. Further -- if circumstances arise to make it possible, maybe you\'re both drunk or things gather momentum and it just happens -- ok, folks make mistakes, let\'s see if we can repair the damage and move on. But don\'t set out to do it and brag about it, quote philosophers to make you look like you\'re intellectually superior for doing things that would rip up whole families -- that\'s a criminal mentality -- someone who doesn\'t have to exercise any restraint over his impulses or care about the consequences of his behavior because he\'s somehow above all that. We call those people sociopaths. According to the logic of \"don\'t judge, it\'s not your right because you\'re not perfect,\" we\'d all look the other way when the Menendez brothers killed their parents, and they\'d never have come to trial -- because, after all, haven\'t we all had the occasional murderous thought toward our parents when they thwarted us? Well, then, I guess we can\'t say they\'re bad for what they did or get upset for the grief they caused. What gives me the right to call him a pig? His bragging about his antisocial behavior. I don\'t have it in me to sit back and say \"Oh, well. Love ya, man. You\'re cool.\"

11-10-2002, 07:56 PM
Yeah, I hear ya FTR. The main reason this ticks me off is because pheromones were used for a VERY unethical task, which was sucessful. I think it is completely fair to judge someone by the quality of what they say and the quality of their actions. But yeah, I\'m sure you\'ve got several people on your side on this one, I am surely one of them. Just seems like ethics isn\'t on some people\'s list these days.

Now, I bet someone is gonna slam me saying some b/s like ethics is a local thing (a per-person thing) and that I can\'t judge someone using my local set of ethics. Well there is also a thing called common sense, and I think that in this case, common sense can say what ghost did was unethical and was pheromone abuse.

- Krish

11-10-2002, 07:59 PM
Thanks for that.

11-10-2002, 08:32 PM
Same thing with the \"Applaud me, I got a virgin!\" He met this girl off the internet. Examine this carefully and tell me what you see. He\'s a full grown, married man. Of all the women who could have been available to him, who did he pick for an extramarital dalliance? The woman with NO experience. As contrasted with the scads and hoards of old ho\'s like ... myself, for example! - who\'ve been around the block and back enough times to be a tour guide -- women who understand the game and can play it without getting too involved. From the group of women who advertise for partners on the internet, he picked the woman with the least possible sexual competence, therefore the one most likely to become emotionally attached, and made a sexual conquest that he then came here and bragged about. I\'m going out on a limb here, but I don\'t think it\'s too shaky a limb -- what do you think? did he lay it out plain for her, tell her, look, this is likely to be a one time thing or at best a sporadic hook up -- do you realize what you\'re doing? I\'m probably not the best choice you could make. Nope. He says it took him two days to lay her. He made a concoction for it. He planned and schemed and knew exactly what he was about. Now there\'s an emotional attachment that could cause problems. Well DUH. That was a completely avoidable situation, but he couldn\'t resist the chance to make a conquest and brag about it, never mind the obvious potential for hurt. Oh, yeah - he\'s become emotionally attached, too. Trust me, it will pass. Let\'s hope, for her sake, that she doesn\'t have a pretty sister. It\'s abuse and it\'s intentional and he brags about it. Those of you who put the heat on those of us who are outraged boggle my mind, and I wonder -- is there ANYTHING you feel competent to make a judgment about and come out and say is wrong -- other than to judge those of us who are able?

11-10-2002, 09:22 PM
Do you think maybe I should register with the Phero Offenders list ?
In all this that spills out here I can see how the world has become a over safe place of rules and judgments.
For the most part, most of you are so very far off on who she is and who I am and how we met and how we feel.
I can see how wars start and how anger grows from simple judgments. I may not fit in the norm of this part of the world, however I hold no such anger as I have found here. I hold on tight and let go lightly and mostly never look back. I am a free sprit and I live as I live and sleep deep and well.

11-10-2002, 10:06 PM
That makes sense -- with no conscience to keep you awake at night, why shouldn\'t you sleep well. What planet are you from, originally? Where is the place where you fit in the norn?

11-10-2002, 10:08 PM
Not that I have any new insights to offer. But it’s hard to see all these posts and not throw my two cents in.

Not to defend Nietzche, (a third rate aphorist IMO) but his point was to unmask the arbitrary power relations that hid behind morality. It’s well known that he espoused his own harsh morality and was caustically judgmental against anybody that didn’t measure up ( see, for example, the Madman’s rant against the “killers of God” in Thus Spoke Zarathustra).

With regards to cracking up...
The least we could expect is some kind of breech in your ego defenses. Let’s face it. They were way too grandiose to begin with. Now the idealistic purity of your “transgression” has found its sublime object to be nothing more than a tight ass.

But maybe this is a good thing. You could use a good dose of realism. Maybe you’re just over-reacting to normal marital, sex-life doldrums.

Maybe not.
Like FTR says: Why a virgin? Why the need to make an impression? Why did it take two days? And why is it that your adventures are always about some foolproof plan of seduction that is its own end? Why can\'t you be satisfied with a little coochie like the rest of us?
Does reality presents too many contingencies? Feelings. Wives. Social mores. Virgins that say “no” on the first night...

On the first day the virgin said “no”. On the second day you had some kind of dream. I shudder to think what really happened.

I have to admit, the doomed fatalism of your self congratulation (“I shall never be this lucky again, in this life.”) is ROTF funny. But I’m concerned with this sudden shift into the passive voice. You’ve got to admit, it’s just not like you. Your Masterplan has worked and suddenly you find yourself the Victim of Circumstance. What happened? How does the Master of seduction suddenly find himself the Slave of “attachment”?

Maybe the Master never existed. Maybe he was just a phantasmic projection — a ghost — of a man that felt himself stifled in marriage. Like Hegel (a real philosopher) pointed out, the most radical transgression is laying down the Law. In other words, mocking other people’s values is just an empty gesture unless you yourself stand for something. If your marriage is a joke, get out. If not, quit playing around. Lay that ghost to rest.

Like I said, a good time for realism. Nietzche is dead. And the true measure of your luck is that you’re still married. If this pointless little fling is enough to crack you up, imagine what a divorce could do.

I agree that it’s pretty scary how easily genocide breezes through the moral fiber. But I’m not so sure the board’s reaction is a case of displaced animosities.

Think about why ghostclown chose this forum as his audience. It’s not just the pheromones. It’s the celebration of seduction and a generally libertine attitude towards sex. He wants to be like us, more than us.
People are saying, “No! That’s not what we’re about. Your kind has no place here.”
It is a defensive reflex for sure, but it’s not necessarily hypocritical or self deceptive. Either the line has to be drawn somewhere, or anything goes.
If you want to argue that anything goes. Argue that anything goes. If you think the line should be drawn somewhere else, why can’t you defend ghostclown’s actions?
Your “judge not least ye be judged” argument is basically in line with ghostclown’s assumption that we only wish we could be so bold.

11-10-2002, 10:39 PM
a.k.a., your lucidity is restorative. Thanks for an excellent post.-

11-10-2002, 11:17 PM
Bravo, aka!!!

This may seem a little too simplistic to SOME men but it\'s very obvious to me that GC hates women. It\'s the kind of controlling, manipulating hatred that can lead to all manner of abuse not the least of which is rape.

I am in no way ashamed to say that I ABHOR the degradation of women in any form and am utterly repulsed by those who perpetrate it (and/or defend it). GC has some real sick needs that have absolutely nothing to do with sex. It actually scares me as much as it sickens me and I don\'t scare easily. There\'s nothing I can think of more dangerous to women than men who hate them.

But of course I\'m probably being too \"hard\" or too \"judgemental\" or too \"morally\" grounded where GC is concerned; and maybe all of us women (and the men who truly like, love and appreciate us) should just give GC a shrug and blow off all the deviant implications of his behavior. Well, not THIS woman.......not in THIS lifetime.

Peace, love and good karma to y\'all,

11-10-2002, 11:21 PM
I see the same things and I get sick over them for the same reasons, and sickened by the folks who would defend him.

11-11-2002, 12:46 AM
A little late (I was asleep on this end) but thank you Proteus for explaining so correctly what I had in mind when I wrote that little comment. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

11-11-2002, 09:58 AM
My time here is all but threw, Adventure await me and so I shall soon slip down life\'s rabbit hole for whatever may come.

It is interesting to read the many posts brought on by such few words.

I am not sure why but A.K.A.\'s words had a nice ring to them. Maybe he is some sort of Grandpa Walton blown back as a New Age Type..... And I think we all know who would play Mary Ellen so very well, however did she have red hair ?

Don\'t Worry ......... Be Happy

I Shall Return


11-11-2002, 10:24 AM
you\'re welcome and glad I understood you correctly :-)

11-11-2002, 12:47 PM
You shall return? Noooo please don\'t, lets make it easy for us all. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

- Krish

11-11-2002, 12:52 PM
/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif As long as he has his one fan, he will continue to grace us with his classy presence.

11-14-2002, 10:03 AM
I am very angry right now, unfortunately. FTR, you spew about how \"people\" (me) who \"defend\" G \"sicken\" you, arguing that I am a coward because I don\'t stand up for Right, when my posts NEVER had anything to do with those issues! Though I am speaking the truth, it\'s a waste to even try to clarify it to you. You really, really don\'t get it. You are acting arrogant about precisely your ignorance. (What you accuse that guy of).

I am not condemning people, because I just don\'t. I am defending no one\'s actions, and I said that. It is not OK for you to say again that I am. Frankly, I do and have reacted negatively to some things G has said. If you think my \"failing\" to judge a person as a bad person or condone their ongoing flogging in our forum = \"not standing up\" for good things, you are being ignorant. You are acting in a really insulting manner. The \"Judge not\" thing has nothing to do with judging what is wise/unwise to do. You know that unless you are brain dead.

Proving G did something \"wrong,\" however wrong it was, does not give you the right to judge them, call them \"pig,\' pull together a vicious public mocking, and all that other stuff. You think doing that makes you virtuous?

Most arguments in favor of this judgement have been of the form, \"If he was only doing x that would be understandable, but he did x + y which really IS wrong. So we are right to publically mock him and/or to say he is a bad person.\"

Great logic! Whatever. Have your feeding frenzy. Get yourself off.

If they bragged about their mistakes, that changes nothing, except perhaps that they have made another mistake by bragging. If the fact that someone\'s bragging about their unwise actions pubically annoys you, say that! But I\'m bothered by your public judgements of persons and feeding frenzies in a forum where I spend so much time trying to contribute something.

Who elected you public flogger? You\'ve done this more than once before.

That\'s not standing up in my book, and that doesn\'t impress me as being particularly virtuous. It\'s shallow BS to say you were just being angry, and that I don\'t want you to have feelings. Moralistic wrath by humans is BS. It\'s just arrogance getting off on finding somebody you can get away with abusing. People go along with it. It helps nothing. Refraining from public ridicule does not = good men doing nothing.

That is really lame to have said that about me. I will not put up with that any more. I have recently been exhausted from helping suicidal people, abused women and children most every day and I am in no mood for your BS about me. I stand up for what I believe in; and protect people every day. That doesn\'t make me special, but, who do you think you are? Your incessant narcissistic attempts to dominate the whole forum, putting others down constantly in subtle and nt-so-subtle ways, are annoying. Get a hobby, Ms Queen of every situation! I really don\'t care if I never read another post by you.

I may well leave this forum myself. It\'s not as interesting or fun as it was. I sincerely apologize to everyone else having to read this ugliness. I will try harder to avoid such situations.

11-14-2002, 10:09 AM
Well, that would be a shame. Your knowledge of pheromones and perfumery is valued. Sorry you\'re so upset. I hope you feel better.

11-14-2002, 10:11 AM
Just curious as to why that post was addressed to FTR, when you see that many people feel the same way she does about GC, like myself?

11-14-2002, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

I may well leave this forum myself. It\'s not as interesting or fun as it was. I sincerely apologize to everyone else having to read this ugliness. I will try harder to avoid such situations.


This has got about stupid enough. There have been so many stupid, repetitive, boring, ignorent threads recently. Doc, you have my respect for standing up for yourself like that. People are entitled to their oppinion, and may go about freely with these beliefs, but the minute they act on these beliefs to other people (predjudice comes to mind), they bring themselves into question. Personal attacks are wrong, but most people are guilty, me included. Repeated attacks and mob mentality are even worse.

I for one am tiring of this increasingly repetive and ignorent forum, and I don\'t particularly care if this kicks up no fuss at all.

11-14-2002, 12:28 PM
As I recall, this is why the \"off topic\" forum was created in the first place, so people who don\'t like this kind of bickering and garbage don\'t have to read it. Theoretically, if we just stick to reading the actual Pheromone Discussion forum, we can continue discussing pheromones and gaining knowledge to help us, and can avoid these types of inflamatory conflicts if we can\'t stomach them..

It\'s just a shame that Ghostclown originally posted this on the Pheromone forum before it got moved her to the off topic forum.

11-14-2002, 12:34 PM
Hey, wait a second.

Unlike some others, Ghostclown at least mentioned what kind of phero\'s (SOE, PI) and cologne he used. So that part of the thread belongs to the pheromone forum IMO.

Other than that, this off-topic forum is the place for flame wars, which can be amusing from time to time. FullTilt has the right to get \"sickened\" by some people, but she shouldn\'\'t be surprised when people don\'t like that.

11-14-2002, 12:42 PM
Well, I suppose it did start out listing pheromones...but it did contain a bit of bragging about the circumstances as well. So, perhaps it did have a reason to start out in the pheromone discussion. But, the focus did tend to shift fairly quickly.

11-14-2002, 12:49 PM
Not too much surprises me anymore. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Scoldings are so boring. I\'d much rather have a spanking.

11-14-2002, 03:32 PM
Yes, it is true. Actually, Ghostclown was minding his own business and posted a reasonable message about a pheromone mixture and folks started picking on him based on his previous behavior. I\'m not defending his lifestyle and I probably should have posted something to this effect earlier, but I think we should give folks a chance to change their ways. In this case, I think Ghostclown was trying to avoid getting into the kind of conflict he had earlier and ended up getting goded into another fight.

11-14-2002, 04:54 PM
With respect, Bruce, GC wasn\'t even fighting. The fight started when GC posted, three women on the forum expressed their distaste for him, and were preached at by the doc, whose message was, in essence \"shut up and be nice.\" It\'s hard, as a female, to hear a man talk as GC does and not be affected. His behavior, as you may have gathered, is hugely offensive and deeply alarming to many of the women. The women said so, and the doc didn\'t want us to. I refused to shut up about it, and took the heat.GC did not start the fight. The fight was between the doc and the women, and a few of the men who stood up for us.GC won\'t change. And probably as long as he continues to post, he\'ll get slammed, even if I sit in my corner like a good girl.Polishing my tiara as Queen of the Love-Scent Forum, I remain,yours sincerely,FTR

11-14-2002, 10:03 PM
Good post Bruce. I don\'t try to judge anyone as far as their life style, but I have to say there are quite a few women who come across as sexual pigs also. Maybe some of them post here?

11-14-2002, 10:22 PM
First, regarding FTR: I guess when you work for DC attorneys you learn how to be a spin doctor, and make people seem like bad guys vs. you, the hero. It\'s \"Doc vs. Women and the gallant few who defend us!\" /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif Whatever. Nice calculated forum politics.

By the way, please do stop sending me PM, FTR. I don\'t care if -- let\'s see -- you don\'t listen to anything I say, feel I\'m not worthy of your respect; that I don\'t really have any values, am not qualified be a psychologist, am a coward about strong feelings; am a \"little girl with my panties bunched up;\" and, that all my posts are really just self-serving. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif I also don\'t care how much, and how deeply you detest me. I don\'t want to be harrassed any more.

Now that the thread is on the off topic forum, to the extent Bruce doesn\'t mind, people can engage in whatever stuff they want to, ugliness or not. YeeeeHaaaa!

I just didn\'t feel it was appropriate in the other one, as the forum had long been a really first-rate place for cross-disciplinary intellectual discussion; as well as a safe, mutually supportive place for personal discussions of sexuality. That\'s not me being idealistic. It really had been a unique, wonderful forum. Anger has it\'s place and an appropriate means of expression (assertiveness) in such a forum, IMO. On the street what is appropriate is different. That is just my opinion. Others may want a different kind of forum. OK fine. There\'s room for everything on the internet. I had taken pride in what folks had created (before I ever got here), and came to feel a little bit homey about it, \"as if it was my own\". But I defer to Bruce, who really does own the site. I can\'t control anything here. I was trying to take a little responsibility for keeping it civil, not to tell \"women to shut up and be nice\". /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif I have asked men to keep it civil too.

I have read over what I said, and upon relection it might look a bit too controlling. /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif I\'m not sure. I apologize to everyone if I was that way. I should perhaps learn to back off from challenges more often, and not get sucked in. Oh well, we all have egos.

Anyone who knows me personally knows I really do support women (and men) standing up for themselves, anger and all. My women friends feel fine about expressing anger toward me as well, as long as it\'s appropriate and constructive. I do want women (and men) here to feel the same way! I\'m trying to strike a balance between intellectual and personal.

Again, I really don\'t blame any of y\'all for being rubbed the wrong way by someone proclaiming they want to screw their wife\'s sister! (That is why I\'m not \"flaming\" everyone that is angry, Elena.) Especially if any of you had something similar happen! That\'s just normal humanity, and I\'m quite fond of normal humanity. I hope that is now clear to most everyone.

But people are always going to say things in an open sexuality forum about behaviors that we don\'t like. People engage in a mind boggling array of sexual and relationship behaviors. If it gets too offensive to where constructive, assertive feedback is no longer possible, I bet Bruce would be happy to ban them, if we ask. He did it just recently when someone was out of control with inappropriate posts.

So yes, I would like to have a civil, mutually supportive (of each other as persons) forum, since the topics are inherently both very personal, and controversial. I wouldn\'t even mind if there was some guidelines written up to that effect. I don\'t know how others feel.

11-14-2002, 10:33 PM
Hey Doc, you owe no one an apology. You did nothing wrong but state your beliefs. And a few self rightous folk were bothered by it. Big effing deal.

11-14-2002, 11:11 PM

11-15-2002, 12:44 AM
Doc, I didn\'t say you weren\'t qualified to be a psychologist. I said I can\'t believe you are one, with your apparent terror of strong negative emotions. It\'s ok to be mad but I have to act exactly the way you want me to while I\'m mad or it upsets you. You left out the \"sanctimonious\" part and the part about the irony re those people who \"judge\" are ruining everything! starting wars! they should all go away, you don\'t want to hear what they have to say, etc. being also a judgmental statement. I didn\'t say I don\'t respect anything you say -- I said I do respect what you have to say regarding pheromones and perfumes, but that I don\'t respect you on other subjects -- not to the point of allowing you control me. I didn\'t say all your posts were self-serving. I said the bit about your taking time off from your exhausting schedule of saving the world to blast me was. I said however much you detest me (which seemed quite apparent), I return those feelings. I didn\'t say you had no values; I said the only thing I\'ve ever seen you get riled and stand up for is yourself. I\'m no more politician than you, I don\'t think. And if I\'ve made you feel uncomfortable on the forum, I apologize. I pm-ed you to try to keep it off the board, since you said you don\'t like angry exchanges here. I thought maybe we could duke it out in private, since you didn\'t seem ready to let it go. People have asked that GC be banned and he hasn\'t. They\'ve probably asked that I be banned, and so far I\'m still kicking. Bruce apparently feels there\'s room here for most everybody. Hope you can come around to feeling the same, even though I go off on a rant from time to time and the way I express myself when I\'m angry is inappropriate to you. My saying your angry post sounded like a little girl with her panties in a bunch was nasty and I apologize -- it was probably a reaction to your referring to me as narcissistic. I do feel there\'s a bias -- it\'s ok for a guy to be angry and express it, even somewhat recklessly, but not for a woman; then, she\'s being unseemly. I can\'t be ladylike all the time. Ditto your rhetorical questions about how many actual and phone sex partners I\'ve had in my life. Probably more than you. Probably more than most people. If a guy does it, he\'s a stud. If a woman does it, she\'s a slut. This kind of thing gets tiresome. But I guess I have a sex role bias, too. It makes me uncomfortable if a guy isn\'t chivalrous, and contemptuous if he\'s out of control in public. It\'s ok for me to have a hissy fit, but not for you, since you\'re a man. Oops. Wrong. I\'m not sorry for what I wrote about GC, but I am sorry for what\'s occurred between you and me over it. I could promise to try to be nice in the future but in the face of extreme provocation, it will fall apart, so I won\'t. Maybe you could just ignore me, since your attempts to correct and control me just incite my defiance. Peace? P.S. ARG, I can\'t let it go ... Dr, read ccbythesea\'s post again, if you would, please (I can\'t copy and paste on this machine). Do you see that she feels GC abuses women? and my response to her was about \"those who *would* defend him.\" Unfortunately, I\'m rude enough in the heat of the moment to address you directly. I wasn\'t speaking to you. I was talking about those who would defend a man who abuses women. You didn\'t exactly defend him; you asked that he be treated civilly. That you can hate the sin while loving the sinner is admirable; I can\'t, in the case of a man who abuses a woman, and perhaps that speaks to my own shortcomings. Women are conditioned to be nice, to be understanding and sweet and patient. That social conditioning keeps many of us with men who use us for punching bags or humiliate us, as in the extreme disrespect of sleeping with our sisters. I can\'t be nice or dispassionate about it and your asking me to drove me over the edge. I have tried to be deferential and respectful to you and to account for the fact that we tick one another off without much effort, and I apologize for the very insulting letter I sent you. But I hope this explains why my anger is so deep and why I was so very angry at you, in particular, for appearing to be insensitive to the issue and wanting us not to say what we felt. I\'m obviouslly willing to through just about anything, including being kicked off the forum or being perceived as a high and mighty, judgmental bitch if I can get you or anyone else to see the issue -- it\'s more important that what you think of me -- that hurt is my problem -- I bring it on myself because I won\'t shut up, but I can\'t shut up or be nice about men who abuse women. You kept saying it was about his sexual morals. I have no leg to stand on in that regard -- as you brought to the forum\'s attention, I\'ve had many partners, so much of my own sexual behavior is against conventional morals. It was never about that. It was about how he treats women.

11-15-2002, 04:29 AM
Let\'s not address all those innacurate characterizations but say we did. I doubt people care; and you have mistaken me for someone who cares about controlling you. Your male chauvanist cookie cutter is getting rusty and bent. I make my own peace. So do you.

11-15-2002, 05:05 AM
Don\'t apologize Doc and don\'t leave because of certain people who think there higher than most. You always been very informative on the forms and would hate to see you go.

11-15-2002, 05:16 AM
I second that!

11-15-2002, 06:15 AM
Regarding the addendum to your last message, I\'m very sorry if you were abused, though it\'s none of my business. It would be patronizing to say more. I do hope your future turns all the more positive for what you\'ve learned through pain.

It\'s very hard to both deal with our own abuse, and hold on to the fact that most of us both are/aren\'t abusers, depending on definitions. I personally empathize with that struggle through experience, just as I now publically advocate for respect among all forum members.

Respect is not necessarily dependent on internal feelings, which can be fleeting. If I may wax academic, there was a fundamental concept in Ancient Greek society about the level of universal respect due to strangers. Athenians were very polite and gracious. Here were the beginnings of our Western culture. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Though dikeosune, or the Greek concept of \"justice\", always had to do with an overall way of life beginning with internal peace, the concept of stranger-respect eventually devolved into sets of rules. /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif In this inadequate, piecemeal form, it became the basis for our modern concept of \"rights\", as well as for the \"justice\" system that is your profession.

Unfortunately, \"rights\" fail as personal guides to living, because we can respect someone\'s legal rights and still treat them utterly without respect. As we have lost the original Greek context, few of us in the West really know how to treat strangers. It\'s not our fault. We were never taught. We\'re told to be \"nice\", but that empty admonition doesn\'t help much. Our culture has been \"cleaned out\" of this practical philosophy by the forces of History; especially by Medieval Church authorities, who sought to elimenate any practical philosophy that did not come from them. Later, the Church was at war with the Enlightenment, existentialism, and Nietzscheanism, all of which failed to instill much of anything positive for daily living. We have inherited the ruins of those battles, and the original practical philosophy of Western culture, which was once very rich, is now in shreds.

Accordingly, confusion and intellectual battling is our culture now! /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif We haven\'t moved beyond that episode in history. So we know how to attack others\' morals, and ways of life, but we have no adequate practical philosophy of our own.

Many of us turn now to Eastern traditions for this type of practice; traditions which are still alive and functioning in places like Japan, as Bruce could doubtless teach us.

The Japanese I have known are more respectful the less they know you! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif So it is probably no accident that Bruce treats \"mere customers\" or strangers the way he does. We\'re fortunate to have a role model on board.

11-15-2002, 07:13 AM
It wasn\'t about me. It was never about me.

Lovely post, doc.

11-15-2002, 08:24 AM
Doc brings up an excellent and insightful point - Western Civilization has lost a common, central moral position on sexuality supported by a broad consensus (well, maybe the broads on this forum have one....)

This is good in that we\'re leaving behind a system with limited current applicablity (strict Victorian Christian morality) to modern conditions and struggling to create a new system of sexual morality based on working women, birth control, DNA testing, population explosion, and other economic, technical, and social changes.

We simply don\'t have a central, authoritative morality to agree to these days - it\'s all changing and has been for 50 years with little stability in sight.

In the mean time, proposals flourish then fade, \"eternal verities\" are forgotten, and we still don\'t have consensus.

What is bad is that we are continually making mistakes and we can\'t agree they\'re mistakes until the damage is done. The thought that freewheeling homosexuality was just fine now helped propagrate the AIDS epidemic - I lost a respected colleague here in San Francisco to it. The notion that women should seek \"self-actualization\" resulted in millions of newborns being warehoused in childcare centers.

So, we will disagree as we grope to a new consensus. In the mean time, let\'s try to keep the process civil.