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sophie
11-01-2002, 06:15 PM
Women\'s forum very quiet these last few days, so here is a topic for discussion.

Are a man\'s looks that important to you, or not really? For myself I have always placed appearance secondary to many other considerations, and wonder if I\'m unusual, or do looks really count that much when a woman is seeking a man.

Grooming/cleanliness is important of course (to a degree, I don\'t want him so immaculate that he\'s afraid to get \"dirty\" ahem), but to me a man does not have to be really handsome to be attractive. Personality, attitude, confidence, behaviour, sense of humor, these all count much more to me than looks.

And specificallly, does a man have to be muscularly buff, or are teddy bears OK? Personally I always thought teddy bear types are just fine, though everything depends on the total package (the attributes I mentioned before).

I have often wondered what other women look for, because from reading these boards, I sometimes think men think we are as visually oriented as they are, and I have never felt this to be true. No offense, guys, just trying to help you out too, but I have thought about this a lot, and maybe I am just unusual, because I try to see the inner person more than the outer person. Or I think I do. Not to say I would never look a little at a buff handsome guy, but it\'s the whole package that counts.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-01-2002, 06:48 PM
Sophie, so funny you should bring this up. Today at work I went into the pantry to get some coffee, and a coworker who I often run into there was there again today. This guy is on the short side, not fat, not skinny, just average body, nothing really catches your eye about him in that way ... he\'s neat but not a sharp dresser by any means ... he\'s balding ...and he\'s got one eye that drifts.


He\'s SO witty. Everytime I catch a glimpse of him I smile without thinking about it. I love to be around him. Today he was singing Some Enchanted Evening in this goofy quasi operatic voice, just being silly in the kitchen with me, and I said to him, \"You\'re just cute. Have I told you lately how cute I think you are?\" and he laughed and I laughed and I had a fantasy of going out with him, that it would be fun, I would enjoy myself, and I could see things going further.

He\'s smart and funny and charming and quick. I don\'t give a damn about his looks. I just like him.

And it\'s always been like that for me.

My 2 cents for what it\'s worth.

sophie
11-01-2002, 07:08 PM
Some of the most attractive guys I know are not handsome, and some of the most handsome are not attractive!!! I hear ya, R!!

Isn\'t life funny...

sophie
11-01-2002, 07:15 PM
OOh, I just had a thought of Sex and the City (missing that show!!) You know, Charotte\'s new guy, that she says is so ugly but she can\'t resist him? There\'s a good example, and a good discussion topic. What is it about that guy? (quiz)

EXIT63
11-01-2002, 07:47 PM
Simple, He has to work harder. Better looking guys and girls are just used to having their ass kissed all the time. They don\'t have to try nearly as hard as those who are more facially challenged. Therefore they don\'t develop their wit and personality muscles and they become atrophied. What a shock it will be for them when they hit the wall. And they will hit it...Eventually.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-01-2002, 07:59 PM
It\'s true about the having to work harder. But what I\'ve realized is that for me, it\'s about brains and imagination. I\'m not talking about a book smart pedant -- that\'s boring. Someone who can take the conversation through twists and turns and surprise me and make me think -- that\'s what engages me. Intellectually agile, that\'s a turn on. And open-minded, and I don\'t mean just about sex. Someone who\'s not provincial in his outlook.

EXIT63
11-01-2002, 08:06 PM
What\'s a pedant?

**DONOTDELETE**
11-01-2002, 09:28 PM
One who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge

**DONOTDELETE**
11-02-2002, 09:52 AM
Damn! I\'m not gonna get women with my hot body and beautiful face alone?? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif I guess I better get to the personality gym and start shaping up! This reminds me of the \"ass-man/boob-man\" controversy. Personally I prefer to look at the complete package on a woman. Yes! Personality and sense of humor are included. It takes more than mere flesh to keep me around.

CJ01
11-02-2002, 10:44 AM
I don´t want much at all, just perfection that´s al /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif CJ

Elana
11-02-2002, 12:35 PM
Exit63- All good looking people are doomed to \"hit the wall\"?
If you are nice looking you probably won\'t have a good personality? That\'s some sterotype.

EXIT63
11-02-2002, 12:50 PM
Forgive me, Some days I have a tendency to open mouth and insert foot. I don\'t really mean to stereotype. I\'m just lonely and bitter. And I need a vacation. And a bigger penis. lol.

Elana
11-02-2002, 12:52 PM
Don\'t hate me because I\'m beautiful /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif and I will love you even if you have a little penis. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

CJ01
11-02-2002, 12:57 PM
Same here /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

EXIT63
11-02-2002, 01:03 PM
Have I told you ladies today how much I LOVE YOU?

Well I do...I really do. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Elana
11-02-2002, 01:04 PM
We LOVE you too! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

EXIT63
11-02-2002, 01:09 PM
Elana, you have acheived FULL MEMBER status...Geit it? FULL MEMBER. Just what you luv so much.

Elana
11-02-2002, 01:10 PM
/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif I do love a Full Member! Exit, we just answered the question of this thread...Women want you!

EXIT63
11-02-2002, 01:11 PM
Yes...It\'s all true. Now will someone please tell the women.

franki
11-02-2002, 01:13 PM
lol /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
11-02-2002, 11:41 PM
As a guy, I\'ve always had that belief of,...\"girls place less emphasis on looks than guys place on girls.\" Why do else do you think womens fashions, hair, makeup, etc is such a huge mulit billion dollar industry? A while ago at a newstand, I was amazed at the number of womens hair magazines. I pointed it out to a female friend,..and I was like, \"what is this?\" And she goes,...\"it\'s absurd, I don\'t believe in it either\" (she\'s sexy but sensible about things). There were probably 8-10 magazines just on different hair styles. There is such an emphasis on looks for women, I could never imagine it.

Guys tend to work on their personalities while women work on their looks. It\'s a gross generalization, but it\'s got some truth to it. Women do their makeup before a date, while a guy will think to himself,....\"I should be funny, confident, fun, etc\".

EXIT63
11-03-2002, 02:53 AM
Act like a jerk
Get drunk on booze
But whatever you do
Don\'t wear crappy shoes

CJ01
11-03-2002, 07:42 AM
What on earth are you on about ?

CJ01
11-03-2002, 07:56 AM
Women don´t wear make-up, dress up and other things to please men. Sorry to any guys who think everything women do evolves entirely around them like us girls have nothing else to do. Women do all those things - buying cosmetics, trying to look and feel good just for themselves. Sounds selfish? Not really after all men can end up benefitting from this too.

Yes I can´t believe there´s so many `womens mags´ either. I stopped buying them years ago!
Having said that there´s a lot of mens magazines around too, giving the same type of useless `good advice, statistics, topics as those ofr women. There´s also more than a few mags with naked girls too - penthouse, playboy, hustler... why´s that? There all the same too.

Another thought, maybe women have ended up spending too much time (in some cases) worrying about their looks because of the media and society in general. Until now women in europe have been `allowed´ to have wrinkles and stuff but in other places they get told to go and get rid off them. Why I ask?

Make up is not just for dates either, it´s for yourself and men shouldn´t tell themsleves to `be funny etc` just be yourself. It´s much easier! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif CJ

CJ01
11-03-2002, 08:02 AM
Oh I´m rambling again. I just had luch and some of it was liquid. As was the desert -a very good mid-nineties spanish red one /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif CJ

**DONOTDELETE**
11-03-2002, 09:08 AM
I think trying to alter your personality to please some vague idea of what women want is disastrous. What people want more than anything else, at heart, is to be loved for ourselves. Well, how\'s she gonna love you if she can\'t see who you ARE? If there\'s anything to be worked on, it would be your own intuition and responsiveness, so you can interact with the other person authentically. Keep it real -- that\'s where the treasure is.

a.k.a.
11-03-2002, 11:44 AM
Everybody says, “Keep it real.” Yet everybody plays a role.
Human subjectivity and freedom of thought implies the possibility of taking on many roles. Some poor souls are stuck in a role that their family imposed on them. And some societies are so repressive that you don’t have much leeway. But, for the most part, everybody is a different person on the job, with their family, among friends, with a lover, and etc.. For me, the most interesting people are the ones that are flexible about who they\'re going to be. (Then again, I do tend to get stuck with more than my share of psychos. So I suppose there should be some sort of balance.)

PS Sorry for butting into the women’s forum, but how could I resist answering the Freudian question?
The way I see it, most people (women included) don’t know what they really want. That’s why they’re so easy to manipulate.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-03-2002, 12:23 PM
We have to act appropriately, that\'s all. We can still be real in any circumstance. To create a persona for each facet of your life, it seems to me, would be exhausting and fruitless. I don\'t think it does any good to try to act like someone you\'re not in order to make people like you. Some people will, some people won\'t, that\'s just how it is, right? And there are some people who maybe would like you exactly the way you are, IF that could be known, and not covered up with a bunch of overlay put on because everybody knows that\'s what women want. Different women want different things. The start of this thread was to say that we\'re not as interested in looks as guys think we are. I\'m saying \"Swingers\" is not a good movie for a guy to model himself after, nor these fastseduction, etc. sites. While you\'re busy acting in this preprogrammed manner that is NOT you, there\'s probably a girl in your vicinity somewhere who would appreciate the real you. Putting on an act is a waste of time, and trying to control other people\'s behavior is a waste of time - especially men trying to control women. It\'s like trying to herd cats. You can\'t get inside our heads because we\'re wired different from you. So thinking X will get me Y just leads to frustration. Some times it will, sometimes it won\'t, sometimes it matters what day of the month it is ... the best thing is to try to see your partner for who she is, and to be who you are without apology. The more you stuff your head full of \"women are like this, men are like that,\" I think the worse your chances of a real hook up. You\'re so busy looking for what she\'s \"supposed\" to act like or be like that you\'re not listening or observing what\'s actually going on. It just screws up communication, and I don\'t mean talking, I mean being able to feel and sense the other person.Everybody wants to be loved. That\'s why we\'re all so easy to manipulate.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-04-2002, 02:54 AM
I don\'t doubt that women wear makeup, get their hair done, etc to make themselves feel good, guys work out for the same reason, but a guy needs only a fraction of the time to get ready. Maybe my female friends have distorted my view of women getting prepared for a date. Some of them literally take an hour to get ready (or longer).

There is a whole world dedicated to guys improving their personalities/approaches to women. It\'s askmen.com, speed seduction, fastseduction.com, doubleyourdating.com, etc....an entire cottage industry. What to say to women is a very big deal. I like to call it an \"enhancement\" of your personality. Like wearing a hot cologne or women wearing a push up bra. Something to make you feel more confident in front of the opposite sex. I don\'t think it is molding to fit a particular image. Just something to give you a boost.

xxxPantero
11-04-2002, 04:11 PM
what about having a good personality because i was ugly, then i started to work on my looks?

would that make a winning combo?

a.k.a.
11-04-2002, 06:26 PM
FTR,
“Creating a persona” is an excellent description of what we do.

A persona is a fictional character. Not necessarily an ingenuine person. Not necessarily a lie. Just somebody that exists only in the imagination.
Persons are real. Personas are imaginary (not necessarily false). But there’s a connection. We wouldn’t be much if we didn’t imagine ourselves to be something.

Last year about this time I interviewed for my current job. My first managerial position. Among other things, I projected myself as someone that was almost anal about organization. Yet nothing in my life is organized: my kitchen cupboards, my bills, car maintenance, yoga... I wake up when my alarm goes off and that’s the extent of my organization.
So did I lie? Well... I just had an evaluation that says I didn’t. I can account for productivity down to 15 minute blocks, expenses down to coffee filters, software updates, conference room schedules, etc..
The point is I had an image of the ideal manager for the job. I sold it to my interviewers and then I played it out.

We grow up with images of the good child, the smart student, cool teenager, sexy college student, realistic adult... whatever. We play these images out. Modeling, imagery, and symbolism are the basis of personality development. We always forever create, and recreate, ourselves, but sometimes we forget (or deny) that it\'s a process. Often we grow attached to a particular image and are scared of letting it go.

Never saw “Swingers”, but I can agree that fastseduction won’t make me a happy man. But what is this “real me” that some woman might appreciate. Do I have to outline my life from childhood to now? List my feelings and perceptions?
No. I just have to project something that captures her imagination. (“Sweet smile. I bet he’s a nice guy.” “Funny story. Bet he’d be fun to hang out with.”) If I imagine myself to be the fun person that I want her to “see” me as, is that ingenuine? It certainly isn’t “exhausting and fruitless”. Playing off an image in my mind is much easier than memorizing pick-up techniques and a lot more fruitful than trying to get people to understand the depth of my character. Because there’s no bottom.

Your assumption is that there’s something hidden beneath the persona. Yes there are real feelings, real knowledge, real intelligence, real history, real trauma, habitual behavior, linguistic patterns, etc.. Maybe these are hidden, maybe not. But there\'s no \"real me\" or \"real you\" waiting to be revealed. We always forever have to make ourselves. As Sartre used to say, “existence precedes essence”. We don’t know the person we are until we become it, and at that point we could be something else.
“Subjectivity is the abyss of freedom”. If we were all like Popeye (“I am what I am, and that’s all I am.”) ethics would be pointless.
From an existential point of view, the ingenuine person is the one that says, “I can’t even keep my sox in order. There’s no way I could be a good office manager.” “I’m a pedantic little bookworm. There’s no way that party girl would enjoy hanging out with me.”

We all want to be loved for “what we are”. But, in relationships, “what we are” is in the eye of the beholder.
My last girlfriend dumped me shortly after I quit my last job. Her first reaction was, “What’s gotten into you? How can you just quit a job without any other prospects in sight.”
I can appreciate the shock. She thought she knew me, then suddenly she thought she didn’t. Yet, in my mind, I was being totally consistent. “You know how much I hate that place. Did you think I was going to spend the rest of my life there?”

You say confidence is more important than good looks. Maybe you would say that love is even more important. I’m not negating that.
But I believe that what we crave more than any of those things is something ineffable. Something that we don’t quite have a clear picture of until we \"see\" it. Then we’ll know it’s what we’ve been yearning for all along.
Have you never fallen for a guy that you didn’t expect to, then promptly figured out what made him so irresistible? (If it\'s so obvious, why didn\'t you see it coming?)

Most people don’t realize that there’s a fundamental lack at the heart of all desire. Paradoxically, the more they don’t realize it, the more they are driven by it. To manipulate them you simply inscribe some meaning to that lack. (ie. “Beef. It’s what’s for dinner.” “Attack Iraq. Then the world will be safer.”)
To avoid being manipulated, it does no good to be suspicious of other people’s motives. The point is to understand our own motives. (ie. “I sure am tired of processed foods.” “I sure miss the days when Americans were welcomed.”)

**DONOTDELETE**
11-04-2002, 07:15 PM
\"I don\'t give a damn about his looks. I just like him. \"

Yes but that\'s not getting him laid...

sophie
11-04-2002, 08:42 PM
what an interesting discussion evolved on this thread!!! I must admit my original post was mostly from boredom, and I apologize if it made life/relationships seem too simplistic (I hate that so called word simplistic but it seems to fit here). But what a treasure of sincere and true thoughts have been put down here. And I feel I should add also, that I certainly have no prejudice against good looking people!!! Just that many of the most special people I know are not necessarily beautiful or handsome, but inner beauty is something I value.
On the other hand, inner ugliness is something I detest.
Beauty definitely is in the eye of the beholder (trite and very true).

I agree with the theory that if you work on your self/body to please yourself, that is a positive thing. It took me many years to realize that improving myself for my own sake, and not to please others, was the way to go. It makes all the difference in the world.

Example:

Story of two women:

one:age 17 Went to model in California at age 15. Came back as a freakish looking 16 year old with heavy pancake makeup, dyed dark hair, wears blond wigs a la Britney Spears, look like she had facial surgery to give her slanted/almond eyes. Impossible to talk to (no personality), she has to run to the bathroom every 15 minutes to check her makeup and hair, really sad.

Two: age 40:

Was a pleasantly attractive 37year old whose husband wanted her to have a boob job. Now at age 40 it\'s obvious she got carried away and has had facial tucks (more than one, and she looked fine before), is anorexic ( looks odd with giant boobs), has a strange looking salon tan, and looks like a caricature of a human being. I am not condemning any of this \"improvement\" on its own merits, but she is trying to mold herself into some kind of super Barbie doll (which is what she looks like, not like a human being) and there is evidence she is doing it all only for someone else, and not for herself. Sad story.

Please someone tell me if I\'m being overly judgmental, but these two women make me very sad because it\'s obvious they don\'t value themselves for WHO they are, beyond their looks.

Everyone\'s reality is different, and people do see us somewhat as they want to see us. I have a friend who is convinced I should be a politician, which is the furthest thing in the world from who I really am. I think what she means is I am diplomatic and can see both sides of an issue. But politician, NO. (and don\'t forget to vote Nov 5!!).

well, I have a lot of thoughts on this topic, but GG for now!!

see ya tomorrow, same Bat time, same Bat channel....

Exit, write us another poem, loved the ones from Saturday late (Sunday AM).

**DONOTDELETE**
11-04-2002, 08:44 PM
Ok maybe threads like this need seperating into guys that women \"like\" and guys that women end up \"getting laid with\"

I think further classification needs to happen and then therefore see what sort of responses, any guy can be liked and attractive to a woman (me included) but its the ones that get laid often that im interested in

Are they attractive or less attractive in the body sense (muscles well endowed symetrical) or are they funny and butt ugly but remember the fat italians with the gold chains that get laid all the time (lots of hair but ugly fat but they pump out so much sweat - pheromones) that women get laid with them and often.

sophie
11-04-2002, 09:01 PM
OK, since you asked, and I\'ve had a drink, I\'ll tell you what I think. I work with sweaty, (some) hairy guys (they work outside, I work inside) and pheromones RULE. I have learned to smell natural pheros now, and believe me, they are real, and they work for making women horny. (I might delete this post later, so read now).

also, I take back what I said about grooming; met the most scruffy, beautiful young man today, picture a dark haired Brad Pitt with Jesus beard and long hair, gorgeous amber eyes (and sweet behaviour too). He\'d been sitting in a manhole (utility hole for the PC) all day, so wasn\'t so clean but MAN! He had dirt on his cheek and I just wanted to, you know, give him a bath, Um, whatever....like I said, read this now....I\'ll probably delete....and to answer invalididea, I don\'t even look at muscles, it\'s the package....and I\'ve always liked a soft rubbable hairy tummy as opposed to a six pack.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-04-2002, 09:25 PM
To quote sophie so that this thread isnt deleted later and everyone can read in its full glory.
Something for when she sobers up.

\"OK, since you asked, and I\'ve had a drink, I\'ll tell you what I think. I work with sweaty, (some) hairy guys (they work outside, I work inside) and pheromones RULE. I have learned to smell natural pheros now, and believe me, they are real, and they work for making women horny. (I might delete this post later, so read now).

also, I take back what I said about grooming; met the most scruffy, beautiful young man today, picture a dark haired Brad Pitt with Jesus beard and long hair, gorgeous amber eyes (and sweet behaviour too). He\'d been sitting in a manhole (utility hole for the PC) all day, so wasn\'t so clean but MAN! He had dirt on his cheek and I just wanted to, you know, give him a bath, Um, whatever....like I said, read this now....I\'ll probably delete....and to answer invalididea, I don\'t even look at muscles, it\'s the package....and I\'ve always liked a soft rubbable hairy tummy as opposed to a six pack. \"

End quote.

sophie
11-04-2002, 09:38 PM
Haha...OK, now I can\'t reneg, well, OK, I\'ve been wanting to \"come out\" and admit my lust anyway. It\'s just so difficult working around sweaty men all day. I\'ve finally understood how 18 year old guys feel, it\'s torment, but I try to stay civilized and \"keep it in my pants\".

Am I a slut if I have \"lust in my heart?\" I don\'t act on it, but I sure do think about it!

upsidedown
11-04-2002, 09:44 PM
Hey Sophie!

Have you been around any of the artificial men\'s pheromones that we all talk about on here to give us any insight as to which of them provides the closest match to the real thing?

It would be great if you could sample them all for us and tell us which gives you the best overall buzz. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
11-04-2002, 09:45 PM
I don\'t play where I work, so the guy who amuses me so much is out of the question -- that\'s why he\'s not getting laid. If we didn\'t work together, I would ask him out.

What makes the difference between who gets laid and who doesn\'t is this (are you ready?): the one who makes the move is the one who gets laid. You can chit and chat all night long and have a perfectly lovely evening if that\'s what you want .... or you can give her a goodbye kiss that will make her head spin and see if she invites you in for \"coffee.\" The more direct the move, usually the better well received. Let her know by physical actions that you want her. To quote Exit: shut up and kiss her.

That generally works.

sophie
11-04-2002, 09:57 PM
I wish I knew....just today I got H&H (hypnotized and horny) as in DIHL, from smelling some guy. It is so strange how knowing about pheros really makes them evident. This guy doesn\'t always bathe or launder regularly (I know him pretty well). But oh, the smell made me faint. It was just a man smell (not the Brad Pitt guy). You see my quandary, I\'m surrounded by natural pheros, it\'s too much.

I should probably order something with -rone in it to see how that smells. That\'s one I\'m not too familiar with. I just smell \"natural man\" and I\'m a goner now.

Damn those pheros!!! Maybe all you guys should just acclimate your females to ALL phero smells and they\'ll be as lustful as I am.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-04-2002, 10:02 PM
My boss was standing in front of me giving me detailed instruction about a case and I was looking at him, paying close attention, and feeling like I must be drooling ... mesmerized ... he had on this beautiful denim shirt, very soft, perfect color with his eyes, but the texture of that shirt that he was wearing with the collar open ... whew. All I could think about was what it would feel like to slip my hand inside his shirt and touch his chest, damn near drove me crazy. Sometimes at work it\'s like ... white knuckled and gritting your teeth, the men can make you feel so wild.

What\'s a poor girl to do.

EXIT63
11-05-2002, 02:56 AM
...I don\'t play where I work, so the guy who amuses me so much is out of the question -- that\'s why he\'s not getting laid. If we didn\'t work together, I would ask him out...

I bet if you told him that, He would resign today. lol

EXIT63
11-05-2002, 03:04 AM
...Am I a slut if I have \"lust in my heart?\" I don\'t act on it, but I sure do think about it!...

You\'re not a slut until you spread your legs. Dream on sweetie...Dream on.

Sophie my Dear, I know it\'s a long shot. But do you know any single ladies that are exactly like you. Because I certainly would like to meet one. Then my life would be complete.

Now who\'s dreaming.

proteus
11-05-2002, 04:07 AM
>>>>>>Invalidide wrote: Ok maybe threads like this need seperating into guys that women \"like\" and guys that women end up \"getting laid with\"

I think further classification needs to happen and then therefore see what sort of responses, any guy can be liked and attractive to a woman (me included) but its the ones that get laid often that im interested in >>>>>END QUOTE>>>>>

Exactly. As the old saying goes, \" look at what women do, not what they say \" when it comes to the guys they date/have sex with. And you can \"make a move\" all you want and will still get nowhere if you are in the category of \"nice guy\". As for all this advice about be who you really are - does anyone really know the answer to this?? Who or what is the real you?? I believe in constantly evolving, improving myself, eliminating behaviour, attitudes, beliefs etc that do not serve me, and adding those that do and so read constantly, everything, the stuff at fastseduction, layguide, askmen, philosophy/metaphysics, etcetc. using what I find useful, discarding what I don\'t. I\'ve found that what works with women is being \"alpha\" - not being an a**hole/jerk per se, but being alpha. Sure some nice guys get laid etc. but the amount of bs they have to go through and effort they have to exert I just don\'t have time for - so I use pheros, use the stuff I learn, and be the alpha and I date/get laid as often as \" I choose \" by doing the things that women want from the guys they generally end up dating/having sex with. Now I know I\'m not being pc but I really don\'t care - this is what I have learnt from the so-called \"dating scene\". Anyway, very interesting thread and always interesting to read what the ladies have to say even though I may disagree with y\'all completely :-)

EXIT63
11-05-2002, 04:20 AM
... Now I know I\'m not being pc but I really don\'t care...

Being PC is for a%sholes.
Whatever you do. Don\'t be PC. and you\'ll be better off.

IMHO...It\'s the PC crowd that is destroying this nation.
Excuse me now...I have to run out and vote for Al Gore. After all, he did invent the internet..

**DONOTDELETE**
11-05-2002, 06:06 AM
\"don\'t be PC and you\'ll be better off\"that\'s what I\'m talking about. Be yourself. Don\'t pretend to think things you don\'t or like things you don\'t because you think that it what someone wants to hear or what someone wants you to be like. I understand that your \"self\" is constantly evolving. But by \"be yourself,\" I mean react genuinely from your heart/gut, that\'s all. Which is at the core of being alpha. An alpha guy gives the message \"This is who I am, what I do, how I feel -- it\'s all right if you love me, and it\'s all right if you don\'t.\" Not something he has to be belligerent about. Just that he presents an integrated whole, and won\'t be jerked around, and won\'t jerk other people around.Could be you don\'t know who you are if you\'ve spent your life trying to be what everybody wants you to be, in which case the advice to \"be yourself\" would give you a problem, for sure.And generally the guy who makes his move is not stuck in LJBF. He\'s found out whether he\'s going to be accepted or rejected sexually, and if rejected, has moved on.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-05-2002, 07:16 AM
FTR - good point. That\'s the attitude that has always worked for me. Be like the Fonz eyyyyyyy. If you aren\'t afraid of rejection, you won\'t be rejected as often. I dated a girls for a few weeks. I told her I was happy just dating, and she wasn\'t the only one I was seeing. As soon as I started thinking about being exclusive and worrying if she felt the same way, the whole thing fell apart. Why? Because I went from being alpha (\"if it works great, if not no biggy\") to a worried little boy who wanted her to like me. She lost interest. I saw her over the weekend while out with friends, and I was getting hits all over the place from other women - well now she\'s jealous, and interested again.

proteus
11-05-2002, 08:02 AM
That\'s exactly what puzzles me about women. If they responded positively to the non-alpha type guy maybe things would be much simpler and all this \"gaming\" by guys would stop, but in general this is not the case. Every time I\'ve ever tried to play it straight the end result is loss of interest by her, backing off/flaking out, taking you for granted, not giving you her \"time\" etc. whereas if I do the opposite (i.e. be an alpha, a challenge) then she is pursuing me like crazy. And guys tell women this all the time and some of the ladies learn and look at what they do/make some changes, but most will \"say\" one thing, and then keep on again and again dating/having sex with the guy they \"say\" they would never give the time of day too..Anyway, if ya love women as much as I do you just gotta accept that :-)

CptKipling
11-05-2002, 08:13 AM
Damnit! I missed this thread!

Picking up from FTR\'s points:

Women want and appriciate a secure man. Hell everyone values security. But most people dont understand what this means. Just as FTR said, you need to establish your own beliefs and ideals away from the crowd, thus setting you apart and making you seem to be your own man, something my dad is very adiment about. This is confidence, in your self, and in your social standing (but at the same time not caring what your \"status\" is, you know who you are, and that you are to be valued for you). But then this is only half the battle, you have to live by your values, and not sell out on them. If you talk to a woman and she disagrees with something you said, a very typical reaction is to back track and renounce your statment. Now is that confidence? Is that being your own man? In fact if this is you, then you are no man. Confidence is not something you are born with, you \"earn it\", just like respect. They are pretty much paralell, in that you want (and realistically need, if you want any success) the respect of women. Its also a sefl perpetuating cycle, you act with more confidence, you get more respect, you get more confident. Also, the more people who see you being respected and valued, the more you will people (male and female) will want to be around you.

Another thing;
What do you think women mean when they say they want a good personality in a man, but most of all, a sense of humour. Guys think about this before you read, and ladies correct me if I\'m wrong.
Yes, obviously that means they want to laugh, have fun, be excited, distracted from the general miseries of life, and they want this fom their man. I\'m hoping most of you knew that. But then, how do you do this? Being able to tell the odd joke does not equate to having a desirable personality, just as being the typical nice guy doesnt. Being able to brighten up the room with your presence, and make the whole atmosphere boyant, thats what you have to do. The worst thing that you can be is boring. Well duh! i hear you say. But let me tell you, the most common reason for men being dumped is because the woman has become bored. Do you think this can be solved will a joke? Er...no. The main problem is most people have no idea how to be interesting, which leads to desirability, which leads to value. The key is....
...(wait for it)...

...VARIETY

Simple as that. Never get stuck into a routine, even if at first it got the attention of your woman (this applies almsot universally), because I can guarentee it will become boring. If you stay interesting, then she (or they /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif ) will stay interested. Getting stuck into a routine is too reminisant of the guy who tries to hard to please his woman, and gets the woman thinking that she can do better. She will sense that you are doing this souly to please her, and not to have fun and enjoy yourself. Again, being your own man is important. If you are not having fun, say so and/or do something else. If you dissagree or are not happy with something, say so, don\'t just get walked on. But then dont be a jerk, after all you do actually want her to be happy, but just not at your expense.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-05-2002, 08:38 AM
YAY!! Standing cheering crowds, brass bands, balloons, confetti for CptKipling!

proteus
11-05-2002, 08:53 AM
CptKipling: Lots of interesting things you said but the general impression I get is that from your perspective a guy has to be this Mr.Superman/James Bond/Woody Allen kinda guy - that\'s too much work - also there are lots of guys who by any measure are confident, charming, funny, have a personality etc. but are genuinely \"nice\" to people, believe that you don\'t always have to get your own way, that you can turn the other cheek when someone disses you or she disrespects you without feeling the need to argue back etcetc, understanding her feelings, having concern for her even when she\'s maybe being a b**tch because you care for her etc.. But this comes off as wussy, he\'s too nice, he\'s boring etcetc. - I\'m in my early thirties and dated enough, seen enough, had enough gfs to know that at least somewhere like here in NY, if you are \"nice\" in this way, you are going to have a very hard time getting a gf.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-05-2002, 09:06 AM
a.k.a.,

thanks for a thoughtful response. I think you and I are talking about slightly different things, which has maybe become more clear as this thread has evolved.

What I mean is it\'s better as much as possible not to be contrived and self-conscious in your intimate interactions.

Not that it\'s wrong to set goals for yourself that involve changing behaviors you don\'t like -- As long as you change to please your own idea of what you should be, or should become -- and not out of need to be liked.

I\'m not an existentialist so perhaps we\'ll never agree about whether there is a real \"self\" waiting to be uncovered.

But I do know there are people who put up fronts or who lie almost as reflex about how they feel or what they think because they believe they\'re essentially unlovable and they have to work hard to gain approval - or that love (sexual or nonsexual) is conditional on agreeing with each other\'s every point of view. They make themselves a walking lie and no one respects them.

I would rather be with someone who I disagree with on most every topic as long as I know when I ask him something, he\'ll tell me the truth as he sees it.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-05-2002, 09:48 AM
Proteus, two questions, then. 1. What is your method?
2. Is it working for you?

proteus
11-05-2002, 10:15 AM
FTR wrote: >>>Proteus, two questions, then. 1. What is your method?
2. Is it working for you?<<<<<<<<<

Well FTR to answer your first question, my method is a compilation of so many things that it\'s hard to put into words. I could say, being \"alpha\" but that wouldn\'t be sufficient and even the term \"alpha\" has many different intepretations but it\'s along these lines with some variations/things I\'ve picked up along the way, a lot of which I\'d prefer not to say.

To answer your second question, does it work? It depends what you mean - I\'ll answer this way. If I want to get laid I can easily find an attractive woman and seduce her without too much work. But from the perspective of finding someone who I can envision something long-term with it gets complicated. Lets just say I\'m still looking for the \"one\" and very open to this, but it\'s hard to find a woman that you feel you can let your guard down with completely - being alpha also means being very cautious/wary of what she says/does and calling her on her bs when she tests you so you can never truly relax in the relationship because then the boredom sets in for her, or on the flip side you reach a point where the sex becomes dull or you get tired/bored with her (as happened with my last gf) and you decide you want out and date again in hopes of finding that someone who you do feel a real connection with. So perhaps when you talk about \"be yourself\" there is some truth to the fact that ultimately we are all trying to find that one person who we can let our guards down with and be ourselves and still be accepted. But maybe this is just a myth too as in the real world I have yet to experience this but remain hopeful :-)

**DONOTDELETE**
11-05-2002, 10:23 AM
It does exist.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-05-2002, 04:25 PM
It does exist, but it ain\'t easy finding it. I think it\'s just as hard to find a woman who keeps me interested as vise-versa. Almost anyone can go out and find a lay for the night, but Muffy the cocktail waitress with no real personality can end up being about as much fun as a bag of nails in the long term. Is this heading towards the \"What is love?\" thread, or is it just me.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-05-2002, 04:27 PM
Gawd, I hope not. I can do without \"what is love.\"

CptKipling
11-06-2002, 04:15 AM
The things I said arn\'t hard to do. It comes pretty much naturally if thats how you choose to lead your life.

But it is more focussed on the LTR type, not just for going out and getting laid.

I also think it exists, its just a matter of sifting through the masses, but thats even more of a reason to be the guy women want to stay with.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 09:55 AM
\"Swingers\" is not a good movie for a guy to model himself after, nor these fastseduction, etc. sites.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, for saying something about the fastsuduction site and sites like them. I\'ve been wanting to say something about that site for awhile now. So many people have talked about this site on this forum, I figured I\'d get flamed if I said anything negative about it. It seems to me, if you need guidlines set down by a website to get a woman, you are in for real problems. Some of the crap that they suggest you do on these sites are going to get you in a lot of hot water with a woman. They must think women are complete idiots.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 10:02 AM
Oh, there\'s no question - there are men on the forum who are convinced beyond the shadow of any doubt that women are idiots.

Elana
11-07-2002, 10:11 AM
Thank you BNQ /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif It sounds great coming from a guy\'s mouth. It will make women on this forum see that some of you guys actually get it. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Whitehall
11-07-2002, 10:22 AM
\"They must think women are complete idiots.\"

What I do find is that reason does not get you laid with a woman. Spock was not a sexy character. It\'s called \"cold reason\" for a reason.

Women have their particular buttons that can be learned and pushed if a guy wants. Some guys develop a proficiency through conditioning and make their sex appeal intuitive - others apply their problem-solving skills to learning them.

Men have their own set of buttons and women are quite proficient at pushing them when they want (think push-up bras.)



As Nietzsche complained, \"Human, all too human.\"

But then, he died a virgin.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 10:29 AM
What I don\'t understand and probably never will is why some men put \"reason\" above every other thing. \"Reason\" is slow and tedious and depends on the limitations of the reasoner. Women are more intuitive. Because intuition is fuzzy and intuitive leaps cannot be explained, men who are extremeley dependent on deductive reasoning and put logic as the be all and end all tend to think women are stupid. It can be very frustrating to have to break every last thing down to its smallest components and then build it back up again for a man who can\'t accept that you can be right even if you can\'t explain yourself on a blackboard.

I tend to think it\'s sour grapes. Guys who can\'t understand anything but linear thought processes call women stupid because they are themselves unable to do anything but think in a straight line.

CJ01
11-07-2002, 10:55 AM
BNQ, I have repeatedly criticized those websites in the past because they are made by people full of [censored] and therefore are a load of bollocks too. I have read some of the comments and `advice´ on those sites and frankly a lot of what the guys there have written is so negative and aggressive that it´s no wonder they can´t find a woman and serves them right too. Those men actually believe that women owe them their bodies and are on this planet to be grateful for the mere existance of assholes. Yeah right.
The best way to find out what someone likes and wants is to ask the person concerned. Some men just don´t get it. Sadly. CJ:)

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 10:58 AM
And do you notice that the men who make the most frequent blanket negative generalizations about women are often the ones who think most highly of those sites? It\'s bad reinforcing bad.

CJ01
11-07-2002, 11:00 AM
Yep, and it´s not like all men are logical either right, or `reasonable´.

BTW the only buttons women have are maybe on their clothes.

Mtnjim
11-07-2002, 11:22 AM
\"What I don\'t understand and probably never will is why some men put \"reason\" above every other thing.\"

It\'s the difference between gathering berrys and chasing Mastodons, functunal, but, neither is \"better\" than the other.
Also, it may have to do with the difference in the way the two halves of the brain connected. Women have a greater connection between left and right then men.

IMVHO

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 11:28 AM
That\'s actually true. Women use more of their brains at the same time than men do.

http://medicine.indiana.edu/news_releases/archive_00/men_hearing00.html (\"http://medicine.indiana.edu/news_releases/archive_00/men_hearing00.html\")

http://www.enteract.com/~whit/difminds.htm (\"http://www.enteract.com/~whit/difminds.htm\")

http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/britan.htm (\"http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/britan.htm\")

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 11:39 AM
men want to fix and make better. women want to talk about it. what women want is someone to just listen, and sympathize. this is all in general of course. If the car breaks the woman wants it fixed, not someone to sympathize about it. but if she gets in an argument with her sister she wants you to just listen to her, be on her side. not to try to fix it or patch things up.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 11:54 AM
Going one further than that we \"want to talk about it\" -- we want to share our experiences with you -- it\'s very important to us to share our experiences with you. Kind of fruitless, but we keep trying, because for some reason we need to -- as much or more than men need sex, women need to share experience. So when she\'s talking about a problem, it\'s not about getting to a solution -- that\'s typical left-brain linear male thinking, that doesn\'t associate emotion with information -- she\'s just wanting to let you into her inner world. And all you have to do is maintain eye contact and say \"oh\" in varying tones. (Oh?(really?) Oh! (no kidding!) OOOH! (wow, i bet you were mad) oh (right, go on) etc) It\'s true, the worst and most frustrating thing you can do to a woman who wants to talk is to keep trying to give her the solution. What that sounds like to a woman is \"Shut up.\" Which hurts her feelings. Because the purpose of her talking to you is not to get the solution to a problem. It is to share her experience and bring you into her world. She already knows her own answer, most of the time -- if you listen until the end of the story, you\'ll find she ended up working it all out by herself. So you\'re saying, why did she bring the whole thing up in the first place? To share her experience with you.

If, on the other hand, she really doesn\'t know the solution, she\'ll ask you directly, what do you think I should do? Bear in mind this will not be the end of the discussion, though - she\'ll want to work through all the possible outcomes aloud and say what feelings are aroused by those possibilities. Again -- \"Oh\" in varying tones works really well. If it\'s possible for the guy to actually project himself into her place and feel those things with her, then that\'s great, too, because unless he does, he\'s going to forget every last word she said, assuming he was listening in the first place ...

Men hurt women\'s feelings in conversation constantly because they don\'t understand that she\'s talking to bring you closer to her by sharing her world. The men are just focused on the facts of the story, which are largely beside the point.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 12:03 PM
Now that I have gotten all of you ladies fired up a little. Here\'s my 2 cents..
We all generalize about the opposite sex. Ladies, admit it, you do it too.
If you don\'t think that you do, go back and read your previous posts on this thread about us guys.
I don\'t like it when a woman puts me in some kind of category, anymore than a women would want
me to put them there. These so called informational websites, are completely useless. They don\'t only think
women are idiots, they have to think men are as well to follow these so called techniques. Do they think
men are so stupid that they don\'t know what places to go to, to find a woman. Come On! Give me a break.
You can read all the how to books in the world, but you won\'t learn a thing unless you actually do it.
Experience is the greatest teacher. We are human beings not machines. We are all individuals and all of us
work differently. How the heck can a website tell you how to seduce a woman, without actually knowing her.
We\'re all different, what works with one woman, probably won\'t with another. All I am trying to say here is,
guys, stop reading about it, and do it. To everyone here, let\'s respect one an other, and see each other as
individuals and not generalize the opposite sex..

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 12:07 PM
Of course we generalize about men and y\'all generalize about us. There are some valid generalizations to be made.

Generally, tho, the women aren\'t saying the men are stupid, can\'t think logically, are incapable of original thought ... which are things some of the men on the forum say constantly.

belgareth
11-07-2002, 12:14 PM
FTR:

Many men (myself included) prefer a woman who does think. I imagine you would not waste your time dealing with a stupid male, would you? Could be he\'s good in bed but how much time can you really spend at sex? It\'s nice to be able to talk about something interesting between rounds. My younger brother married the epitome of the dumb blond. She looks great and is a very sweet person but has nothing between her ears besides fluff. He confided in me years ago that it was a mistake and wishes he had met somebody who could hold an intellegent conversation.

Your comment about intuitive verses logical is to the point. My wife and I have seen it many times. She and I frequently come to the same conclusion following different paths. It isn\'t unusual for me to be unable to follow her thought process where I can explain mine in a step by step manner. Does that mean one process is better or worse? Not really. It\'s simply different ways of dealing with the same question. If the solution works, who cares how you got there?

I think it has to do with the way our brains are wired and the pressures applied by society. Evolution over the last few million years has required males perform one function while females performed another. (Sound a little like another thread? They are related) Present day society\'s pressures are different and force both genders to take on other roles. More women work outside the home and more men can cook, care for the kids and do laundry. The changes create greater interaction between diverse people and highlight differences that have always been there. It\'s up to us to adapt to one another\'s differences. To my mind, it\'s a much more interesting world that way.

About using more of their brains, is that correct? I hadn\'t heard that before.

Belgareth

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 12:17 PM
Yes, it\'s correct -- I posted links above. The thing about how and why women talk, and how frustrating it is for a woman to try to talk to a man when he keeps butting in and saying \"Do this! Well, then, do that!\" is well documented; many counselors have written advice about this phenomenon. I think it has to do with the fact that women connect everything both factually and emotionally at the same time. So while a woman is trying to convey an emotional experience, the man is just processing the facts she\'s reciting, and expecting them to lead to some conclusion. When they don\'t, and if she doesn\'t tell the story in a linear fashion, he just can\'t process and stops listening/shuts down. I\'ve seen more fights betwen men and women because of this, where she says \"You talk to me like you think I\'m stupid\" (because he keeps telling her what to do) and he is completely bewildered because how could his reaction be wrong? It\'s LOGICAL. arggg

belgareth
11-07-2002, 12:23 PM
Yes, saw that after sending my post. Will check it out this evening. Thanks

Belgareth

CJ01
11-07-2002, 01:30 PM
Excuse me but I never generalize neither men nor women! The only general differences there are as far as the genders go are anatomical and to an extend physiological of course. As for the other things there are so many to the `rules´ that there are no general rules left really.

Some women make those mistakes but men make the general stupid assumptions about themselves. How many men reckon that if a guy does or does not do certain things or behave in a certain way that it ain´t `manly´ or ´masculine´?

I think all those things `the difference between the sexes´, including the stuff written in magazines is just utter bollcks. It´s like reading the tabloids: You can read it if you must- but for f***s sake don´t believe it! CJ

Whitehall
11-07-2002, 01:39 PM
As to feelings vs reason, in my business, except to a very limited degree in human relations and leadership, there is not a single decision I can make or action that I take where \"I feel like it\" is an acceptable justification. I\'d be laughed at for offering such an \"excuse.\"

I can hear it now, \"Why did you specify the single stage canned rotor pump with the 0.8 power factor in type H insulation with the Section III Class 2, type 316L stainless steel casing?\"

\"I felt like it.\"


But then, I am not an interior decorator.

In living the ideal life, one combines reason, feeling, intuition, emotion into an integrated, fully connected whole. One could then apply the most effective mental tool for the situation.

I will say that one thing I love about women is when they open their emotional self to me - I\'ll be glad to change the tire, fight off the bad dogs, fix the plumbing, and bring home the bacon for us - what I ask in return is that you make an emotionally warm home for us.

Ying and yang.

CJ01
11-07-2002, 01:40 PM
BNQ, you mentioned what I was trying to get at but didn´t really say. A big problem is that people don´t respect one another, in general (:) ). Too many people think so highly of themselves they can´t admit that they´re nothing special at all and are mega ego-hurt when someone tells them they´re just little jerks and bitches. People have become so bloody selfish and inconsiderate and pretty sickening. CJ

CJ01
11-07-2002, 01:46 PM
All this man-woman talk ... where´s frenchie and the other (few) gay members of this board. They must be very amused indded and somewhat maybe relieved right?

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 02:00 PM
Nobody\'s suggesting you get all touchy feely at your job - I can\'t do it at mine, either. That\'s a whole different matter.

But speaking of whole different matters -- I swear to GOD, you pay all the bills and support me and I\'d suck your dick and make you dinner and iron your shirts and be glad about it.

I don\'t get this, maybe some of the other women on the forum could enlighten me. I\'ve been pulling a paycheck steady since I was 17, never had the chance not to have to work outside the home, and to me it looks like heaven -- but I really enjoy the domestic arts -- but then again, why would a woman who didn\'t put herself in the position of being a stay at home wife/mother?

Is it a matter of the grass is always greener? I wish I could see what it was like just one time because I really do not get why that would not be wonderful.

Mtnjim
11-07-2002, 02:14 PM
Refering to the suduction sites mentioned back up the thread.
I just went and checked one of them out and here is what I noticed.
These are 16-22 year olds who are afraid to even speak to a female. There also seems to be a lot of over-analysis on these sites. They are attempting to build up their egos and seem brave. Sort of like the war dance was used to hype up the troops before battle. Perhaps if they spend a little time following the threads on those sites, they will be able to build up enough confidence to begin meeting women. And with a little luck, they will have just enough courage to act in a civilized manner, not to the extent they brag about on line.
On the other hand I may just be getting old, and that is the state of relations today. ;>0

Just an observation.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 05:10 PM
Of course we generalize about men and y\'all generalize about us. There are some valid generalizations to be made.

Generally, tho, the women aren\'t saying the men are stupid, can\'t think logically, are incapable of original thought ... which are things some of the men on the forum say constantly.


I agree with you about the men who call woman stupid. These men have serious issues. I\'d put ignorance, and low self esteem, at the top of the list. I don\'t think the majority of the men on this forum think the way that these few do, myself included.. I\'ve read a lot of those posts. I ignored them because they don\'t merit a return post. Men like that fear that they will be outwitted by a woman.

Let me tell you a little something about my wife and myself. Bare with me, there is a point here.. My wife is a polish imagrant, who came to this country 15 years ago. I met her 2 weeks after she came into the country. I spoke a few words of polish, she spoke zero english. The first time we went out on a date, she told me that it would never work between us because of the language barrier. What I said to her was, if you don\'t want to see me again I\'ll respect your wishes. I told her, if it\'s the language problem that is bothering her and nothing else, then there really isn\'t a problem here. As long as we respect, and trust one another, english can be learned. If you don\'t think you can respect and trust me, then we should part ways and not pursue it any further. You know what, she was so impressed with what I said, that she wanted to continue seeing me. Here we are, 15 years later, married, with an 11 year old child.

Here\'s my point. Here we were, 2 people with a huge challenge, both willing to take on that challenge. We still have a few problems. Who doesn\'t. But, the trust, and respect, still exists, and the challenges still exist as well. The operative word here is \"challenge\". I will bet, that at least 98% of the forum members, want and need a challenge in a relationship. We all need a challenge, otherwise the relationship would get boring, and old, very quickly. I\'ve read the posts on this thread and others as well. Although, the ladies are more tactful than the men, when talking about men, the insinuation of calling us stupid is there. Saying things like, \"I sometimes think men think we are as visually oriented as they are, and I have never felt this to be true.\" Maybe I\'m reading into this too much, a statement like this, says to me that men are shallow and too stupid to want anything more than a pretty face. I don\'t know about the rest of the guys here, I want and demand more than that. While some of the guys remarks are much more blatant about how woman are stupid and only good for one thing, to me, the same remarks are coming from some of the women as well, just in a different way. The only thing I was trying to covey in my last post is that we should respect one another for who we are, and stop all the other bullshit..

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 05:20 PM
Some women make those mistakes but men make the general stupid assumptions about themselves. How many men reckon that if a guy does or does not do certain things or behave in a certain way that it ain´t `manly´ or ´masculine´?

Sounds like a generalization to me..


It´s like reading the tabloids: You can read it if you must- but for f***s sake don´t believe it! CJ

I don\'t. I\'m the one who said to stop reading the books and just do it..

BTW, my post was not aimed at you CJ. I replied to you because your post was the last post that was pertinent to my post.. The last thing I want to do is signal anyone out...

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 05:24 PM
BNQ, you mentioned what I was trying to get at but didn´t really say. A big problem is that people don´t respect one another, in general (:) ). Too many people think so highly of themselves they can´t admit that they´re nothing special at all and are mega ego-hurt when someone tells them they´re just little jerks and bitches. People have become so bloody selfish and inconsiderate and pretty sickening. CJ

Sad, but so true...

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 05:34 PM
I agree.

Honestly, I don\'t think -- at least, I don\'t recall, since I\'ve been here, anyway -- a woman saying, or meaning to imply, that men are shallow and all they want is a pretty face. Sophie seems to genuinely like men, as do I. But men DO seem extremely visually oriented, to a point that\'s incomprehensible to many women, which I think was Sophie\'s point in opening the thread --that women are not as visually oriented as some of the guys here seem to believe - because it\'s easy to think that what you value, others value as well. Do you think it\'s fair to say that most women are not as concerned about what a guy looks like as a guy is concerned about what a woman looks like? I don\'t say it\'s every guy, but would you agree that many men are overwhelmed by a good looking woman to the point that they don\'t investigate further, they want her just because she\'s beautiful, never mind what she\'s like in daily interaction, and end up with disastrous relationships. Women can make similar mistakes with macho men who appeal because of their extreme masculinity, but who find it doesn\'t sit well, and god herself couldn\'t get along with them (jokey joke).


One thing that I hope for in these discussions is that we\'ll reveal ourselves to each other as men and women and be able to learn something. It seems to me that presenting information, for example, about the differences between how men and women process information could be helpful. There has been so much emphasis on our being alike that the very real differences between men and women are often ignored. I like to understand the differences -- it helps me appreciate the man\'s point of view better.

Glad to hear from a man who appreciates women who think. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 05:48 PM
I agree with everything you have to say. Believe me, I\'m really taken by a beautiful woman. My point is that looks really don\'t go very far... If that\'s all a man/woman has to offer, that is.. Great to take to bed, but not much more. As I said before, I think that the majority of all people need more than great looks in the opposite sex. If a woman/man is both beautiful/handsome and intelligent and a challenge, then your lucky.. I happen to be one of the lucky ones..

sophie
11-07-2002, 05:58 PM
My original quote: \"...because from reading these boards, I sometimes think men think we are as visually oriented as they are, and I have never felt this to be true. No offense, guys,...\" I really meant no offense and do not wish to convey anyone is shallow and/or stupid. I think it is a neurological (?) fact that men are hardwired to be more visually oriented than women, but I don\'t have a link to back that up.

Just to clear up my original quote; otherwise FTR says things much better than I do.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 06:16 PM
As I said, maybe I\'m reading too much into it. I\'m sure that I am. I wasn\'t trying to signal you out sophie, just trying to make a point. Be honest though, don\'t you think everyone is taken by good looks at the onset, and may, or may not, pursue it because the person turns out to be a jerk. I think both men and women think the same in this respect./ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

sophie
11-07-2002, 06:32 PM
I\'ll try to be honest, but for the most part I am not really swayed that much by a man\'s looks. I might look twice at someone who is considered attractive, whatever that means, but I am not impressed AT ALL unless his behavior is up to par (many sides of that issue, you can be sure, and everyone\'s criteria is different). And so called unattractive (physically) men can be really attractive if ...well, that\'s a big if, it depends on so many things besides looks. That was the point of my original post.

And I\'m really glad this discussion has gone so many directions. I think we can allow that just about everyone who has replied here is not shallow, I like that thought . That was what I was wondering when I posted originally, is it just me or is the whole world based on people\'s looks? I guess I let the media and the jerks in the world make me think too much on the negative.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-07-2002, 06:55 PM
Really, honestly, women and men don\'t think the same on this subject. We just don\'t. It\'s seriously a case of \"pretty is as pretty does.\" A guy might be nice to look at but if that\'s all he is, that\'s about all that will happen -- we\'ll look at him. I\'ve said this before and it\'s the truth - the guy I see right now is stunning -- the guy I saw before him was short, fat, and bald. He was also a Ph.D., an attorney, brilliant, witty, imaginative, intuitive, and an incredibly skilled and passionate lover. I mentioned the guy at work who\'s ... ok, he\'s ugly. But I would go out with him and probably more if we didn\'t work together.

This is what Sophie was trying to get across -- for most of us, it\'s really not about looks. The degree to which you may not be able to believe that is just an indicator, to me, of how different men and women are when it comes to visuals. You can\'t quite grasp it because it\'s so unlike you.

ccbythesea
11-08-2002, 01:22 AM
Wow, this thread has really taken off and if I were a guy I\'d be tracking it daily and maybe even printing it out. ALL of the guys in the forum should take particular heed of the fact that so many women are in agreement about WHAT WOMEN WANT.

I\'ll add that I too am in full agreement with the women who\'ve posted. I\'ll take genuine over contrived any day. If a guy ever tried to use those fast seduction techniques on me I\'d recognize it in a heartbeat and be headed for the nearest exit just as quickly. I would consider it not so much an insult but rather a pathetic attempt to use a \"method\" in the absence of any real, underlying sincerity. Not to mention the fact that my intuitive self would immediately peg such a guy as a total loser. Anyone who thinks women are THAT stupid really needs to pay extra careful attention to this thread.

As for \"pushing buttons\"..... that\'s just another game better left unplayed. I\'ll agree that both men and women have \"buttons\" but mine don\'t get pushed unless I want them to be. In other words, if I like you (sexually speaking) and want to get it on with you then I\'ve ALLOWED you to push my buttons, period.

For a long time alot of men on this forum have been asking women for their input specifically relating to what women want. Well, here it is guys.....love it or hate it ..... here it is /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

CC

EXIT63
11-08-2002, 04:19 AM
...If a guy ever tried to use those fast seduction techniques on me I\'d recognize it in a heartbeat and be headed for the nearest exit just as quickly....

I\'ll be waiting.

proteus
11-08-2002, 04:54 AM
ccbythesea wrote: <<<<<BEGIN QUOTE>>>>>Wow, this thread has really taken off and if I were a guy I\'d be tracking it daily and maybe even printing it out. ALL of the guys in the forum should take particular heed of the fact that so many women are in agreement about WHAT WOMEN WANT.

I\'ll add that I too am in full agreement with the women who\'ve posted. I\'ll take genuine over contrived any day. If a guy ever tried to use those fast seduction techniques on me I\'d recognize it in a heartbeat and be headed for the nearest exit just as quickly. <<<<<<END QUOTE>>>>>

Actually guys should read this but not to follow this advice - rather to take note that the advice here is pretty much what you get from women\'s magazines, advice columns etc, and also the pc men\'s magazines. There are elements of truth to some of what is said, but from my experience there is a large gap between what is being \"said\" and what the average women actually ends up \"doing\" . Knock the sites all you want, and even some guys will jump on this bandwagon, but women who either visit the fs forum, or discuss this on their boards pretty much say the same thing as you did, that \" this wouldn\'t work on me\", but when you start asking them about the type of guys they\'ve generally ended up dating, looks-wise, personality-wise etc., status-wise, you end up finding that guess what the type of guys they actually date/sleep with are the opposite of what they \"say\" and are again that certain type of man. There are exceptions to everything, but the question is what do women end up doing generally. And as for women saying looks are less important to them than guys think - if you believe that I got a plot of land on the moon that I\'d like to sell you :-) . when it comes to looks women are just as superficial and shallow as us men are. As I said earlier, I know what I say is not pc and it\'s probably kinda pointless reiterating what I\'ve already said on this subject but what the heck it\'s interesting to read the women\'s perspective on all of this. You may \"feel\" this stuff won\'t work on you, and maybe that\'s the case, but all I know is that as Machiavellian as it probably is, a lot of these strategies work and I gauge that by the results that I get from this, and make no apology for this. If ya want to keep getting the same results as you\'ve been getting for years with women, then continue to follow the advice in the conventional media, women\'s/men\'s magazines shows etc. but all they will teach you for the most is to end up with lots of LJBF situations.

As for whether using these technqiues makes you a \"loser guy\" well think about it, you are saying this on a \"PHERO \" board - I can tell you the majority of the public out there, male and female, who have never used pheros, would more than likely say \"anyone who has to use pheros to make themselves more attractive to others must be a real loser\" and a lot of them would probably be horrified if they knew that you regularly used pheros. I don\'t feel this way about pheros, and I don\'t feel this way about these methods - I try the pheros and find which ones work for me just as I try different methods/strategies from fs and other seduction sites and see which I feel comfortable with/which will work for me and throw out the rest. To me it\'s the same as using pheros - just another tool in the bag. Anyway, this thread is very useful and has been interesting and I\'ll probably get flamed or sent to Coventry for all this non-pc stuff I\'ve said but so be it :-)

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 07:02 AM
I agree with a lot of what you\'ve said. I don\'t agree with the fastsuduction type of sites. I think they\'re a bunch of bullshit.. We\'re not talking about taking a computer course here. We are talking about people, who are so different from one an other that there are no set of rules that you can follow. Why do you need a technique of some kind? I don\'t even know what that means when you are talking about women. What\'s wrong with the old fashioned way, Boy meets girl, boy asks girl out on a date\". It\'s worked for a long time now, why change it? From my own experience, I do agree that many women say one thing and do something totally different. A woman will say that looks aren\'t important in one breathe, and then proceed to buy you new clothes because she thinks that you\'d look good in them. They try to dress you to the way they think you should look. I have found in my experience with women, that the majority of them are like that.. They want you to look good for them. If that\'s not placing importance on looks, I don\'t know what is..


Another thing to keep in mind as far as women go. Most women, and I mean the vast majority of them, are motivated by other women. A woman doesn\'t dress for a man or even herself, she dresses for other women, and this holds true with just about everything that they do. The ladies here can say that\'s not true, but not only have I seen it, but have been told the same thing by several women... At least that\'s the way it is here in the US. I think it\'s that way in a lot of places in the world. My wife is from Poland, and she is one of the women that has told me that. I agree with FTR that women and men think differently. Have had many arguments where she would say, your too logical, and I would say your too emotional. Didn\'t need to read about it to know that...

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 09:13 AM
I couldn\'t be any less motivated than by other women. Groups of us trade fashion advice and groove on trying different looks, but most women over highschool age have found their own style and pretty much stick with what works for them. If I dress any differently than I feel like, it\'s only because a guy asked me to wear something for him in particular, and then I\'ll put on whatever he wants to see me in.

Women dressing men is sometimes because guys don\'t think to update their looks, but mostly it\'s an act of love, like little girls dress and pamper their dolls. If you buy a woman a new dress, is that because you\'re only concerned about what she looks like, or does it mean you don\'t like the dresses she usually wears? Probably not ...

It\'s interesting - women of various ages from different countries and backgrounds agree completely on things, and you guys come on and tell us we\'re full of sh*t, that\'s not what we really think ...

ok.

You have a potentially good source here in us. Just seems a shame not to allow it any credibility.

belgareth
11-08-2002, 09:24 AM
I have not been to those fast seduction sites but can guess based on the comments here what they say. And I\'ll bet that many of the methods work pretty well on many people. While we are all different, in many ways we are all the same.

As cynical as it sounds, what is seduction but a sales job? Everybody here who has had some sales training knows that although people are different, standardized techniques work on many perfectly intellegent people. You learn the rules and you keep trying until you get a method that works for you. After all, you are trying to sell something to somebody who wants to buy in the first place. The shortcoming is buyers remorse. If you are looking for a long term relationship it should be based on trust and respect, a sales job is probably not going to hold up long.

I agree with FTR that men and women are wired differently. It would be a terribly boring world if we weren\'t. That doesn\'t make one gender superior to another. It simply means we think differently.

Belgareth

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 09:43 AM
As cynical as it sounds, what is seduction but a sales job? Everybody here who has had some sales training knows that although people are different, standardized techniques work on many perfectly intellegent people. You learn the rules and you keep trying until you get a method that works for you. After all, you are trying to sell something to somebody who wants to buy in the first place. The shortcoming is buyers remorse. If you are looking for a long term relationship it should be based on trust and respect, a sales job is probably not going to hold up long.


Are you kidding?

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 09:56 AM
I don\'t think it\'s so much that there is a technique being taught -- it\'s the underlying philosophy behind the technique that is disturbing. For example, Dale Carnegie\'s famous \"How to Win Friends and Influence People,\" is excellent sales advice -- with a superlative, positive attitude toward the potential buyer. And there is nothing degrading to the practitioner or the target of his methods. Ross Jeffries, on the other hand, is contemptuous to a sickening degree. His attitude is toxic, for both parties involved -- I think a pretty fair summary would be \"How to Trick Any Stupid B*tch into Sleeping with your Worthless, Clueless Ass.\"

ccbythesea
11-08-2002, 10:10 AM
Amen FTR, and as usual you\'ve hit the nail squarely on the head.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 10:10 AM
I\'m sorry that you have the impression I think that the women here are full of sh*t. I\'m going by my own experiences and observations, not what is being said here. I\'m expressing my opinion and nothing else.Three things I have learned, from past experiences, what not to talk about, politics, religion, with anyone,(goes without saying) and about the opposite sex, with the opposite sex... (I\'m sure I\'ll get nailed for that one)

ccbythesea
11-08-2002, 10:30 AM
BNQ

I don\'t think anyone was referring to you specifically as thinking the women here are full of [censored]. I appreciate you taking the time to post in this thread regarding the male perspective. I take exception to those who would tell me that what I SAY I want and what I actually DO want are two different animals.

Call it whatever you want; integrated whole, walking your talk, etc.. It\'s most important to me (and many other women I know) that a guy be up front and honest in all his interactions with me. That\'s what I give to a relationship and that\'s what I expect back, right from the get go.

That\'s my story and I\'m stickin\' to it cuz I live it everyday /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

CC

tounge
11-08-2002, 10:35 AM
Boys,pay attention to women\'s actions and not so much what they say. Women, do the same to the boys. In all aspects of life, actions speak much clearer than words.

Whitehall
11-08-2002, 10:58 AM
Remember that cute little song of about 4 years back, sang by a woman..

\"Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies....\"

I never said that women were stupid, nor am I foolish enough to EVER say that (in mixed company.) I will say that men perceive women to sometimes not have their conscious mind connected to their emotional mind. In women, emotions and intuition lead and the \"rational\", forebrain follows. In men, the forebrain (rational mind) plays a stronger hand. Men can be cold and unemotional, from a woman\'s point of view. It\'s a reflection of our brain anatomy - live with it.

Men and women are different; a justifiable complaint is when one gender gets too snobby about their strenghts visa vi the other gender\'s weaknesses.

Wisdom is in understanding and appreciating the differences.

All these seduction sites are for as-of-yet unwise people. May they lead the guys to find a good woman to teach them greater wisdom.

belgareth
11-08-2002, 11:38 AM
BNQ
No sense of humor, I couldn\'t be kidding. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

I probably spoke too strongly, bad habit of mine. I do believe that seduction by either the male or the female is sales. For the fun of it, could you please tell me where I am wrong?

There are principals involved as well. Either gender can be a \"Worthless, Clueless Ass\". Is there anybody here who has not run into those types? It\'s a matter of how you want to use the tools, not the tools themselves. Remember the old \'guns don\'t kill people...\'? It\'s true of seduction as well. It\'s how well you treat the other person that matters most. It\'s unfortunate that so many people never seem to learn that.

Belgareth

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 11:47 AM
Belgareth, probably it would be good to read some of the sites so you\'ll have it first hand rather than on assumption.

I\'m saying that this is the attitude the sites have towards the men and the women they\'re trying to get. Not that either gender is a worthless, clueless ass.

belgareth
11-08-2002, 12:10 PM
Never thought you were saying that. Sorry if it came across that way. Your term appealed to me for completely unrelated reasons.

I was saying that there are some of that type in both genders. I will look at one of those sites later but it is not very high on my priority list. It\'s a lot more interesting to follow this site.

Several of the young single people who work for me follow the advice on those sites and I\'ve seen the results. Mostly I view the whole idea as offensive. They tell me it\'s because I\'m a conservative old married man.

Belgareth

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 12:25 PM
/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 03:30 PM
\". If you are looking for a long term relationship it should be based on trust and respect, a sales job is probably not going to hold up long. \"

If you are selling life insurances, your sell job will also have to relly on trust and respect ...

Everything can be sold, everything.

I did a good sell job to get my girlfriend into my life. She\'s just lucky I\'m an honest seller...

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 03:41 PM
Well,one thing that i have observed with a woman is find something that makes her happy and and what she really likes. if you talk to her enough about what she really likes and bring up what makes them happy the throw in some flirtaous seual undertone in your conversation its easy to get them comfortable happy and wet for making love

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 06:40 PM
what women want ... \"High Powered Love\" from her CD, \"Cowgirl\'s Prayer\"

I\'ve been runnin low on inspiration
Tired of the physical intrigue
There\'s nothing left to the imagination
Living in a world that treats love so carelessly

Don\'t want no smooth talking lover
I can\'t play a role
It just leaves me cold

I need a high powered love
I want to feel that lightening streak
High powered love
Got to be down in the heart with me

Sometimes it\'s hard to keep believing
Too many pretty faces all skin deep
Now is there anybody left
with teeth just a little uneven
Won\'t spend more time in the mirror
than he does with me

If you\'re looking for a good time
A notch on your gun
I ain\'t the one

I want a high powered love
Got to have intensity
High powered love
Don\'t start the fire
if you can\'t take the heat

I need a high powered love
One that\'ll defy gravity
High powered love
It\'s got to be strong and keep on lifting me

Yeah, I need a high powered love
I want to feel the lightening streak
High powered love
Got to be down in the heart with me

sophie
11-08-2002, 07:11 PM
Good set of lyrics!!

I have always been intrigued by the emotions vs logic argument, if we can even call it an argument. There is no right and wrong, it\'s just differences. As far as I\'m concerned everyone here is correct in their observations, despite the seeming contradictions. Just that everyone has a different reality.

I don\'t have anything profound to add, but a lot of what has been brought up here is very thought provoking.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-08-2002, 07:24 PM
To answer the question with humor : they want to argue ;-) .

sophie
11-08-2002, 07:30 PM
I do like to argue ....it\'s one of the joys in my life.... /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

xxxPantero
11-09-2002, 07:47 AM
kind of late to jump in, i know...

i make generalizations all the time about women and men
sometimes i\'m right, sometimes i\'m not

FTR, wimmin ARE stoopid, cant think for themselfs. dey need a MAN to pay the bills and support em and then they can suk his dick. it sounds like a good trade too me. if there were no wimmin in this world, we\'d all be perfectly reasonable and damn near maximum efficiency... but that\'s not very fun. we need some hormone stimulation?

statistics show that people with less education have sex more - maybe because there\'s nothing else to do? or just less to think about? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

*and this has been another rambling thought brought to you by xxxpantero. thanks and good evening.

a.k.a.
11-09-2002, 10:08 AM
In defense of my post...
“I just want you to live up to
the image of you I create.”
(Ani Difranco)

Pantero ...
“Woman needs a man
like a fish needs a bicycle”
(Bono)

**DONOTDELETE**
11-09-2002, 12:15 PM
a.k.a. - which post?

xxxPantero ... I know, I know ... damn stoopit wimmin.

So ... if I hadn\'t gone to college I\'d be having more sex? Oh FINE, NOW you tell me!!

CJ01
11-09-2002, 01:42 PM
Okay everyone, I believe that we I can officially declare this thread to be the longest ever on the LS forum at least since I´ve been here ! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif 6 pages now ...phew. CJ

koolking1
11-09-2002, 04:32 PM
I figure women want the same things I want. Hope so.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-10-2002, 06:43 AM
Less education = more sex. Bugger!!!
Having finished two degrees though, I\'d argue against that. While getting the education there is college life. And I KNOW that makes up for the odd drought later in life.

CJ01
11-10-2002, 10:17 AM
I´d be careful offering someone both -booze and pot. A lot of people can´t mix the two!

camusflage
11-10-2002, 01:00 PM
Uhhhh.. Deductive logic and intuitive reasoning are not mutually exclusive. Myself, I tend more towards the thinking than the feeling (91 on a recent MBTI test), but I also am strongly intuitive versus sensing (61 on the same test). Intuition, to me, is simply a tool to quickly toss out the things that will never pass through the logic sieve, intuition being more efficient than logic, though at the price of being more error-prone.

camusflage
11-10-2002, 01:11 PM
Which is precisely why if you want to know what people are thinking, learn a bit about two things: personality and body language. Personality will help you understand how they think, and body language will help you understand what they\'re thinking.

For someone like me, this is critical. My thought process is unlike nearly everyone that I know. As a consequence, things that appear perfectly logical to me make no sense to anyone else, as well as the converse. By learning how people think and how they (involuntarily) express what they\'re thinking, it\'s made communication on all levels, from the strictly business to the purely pleasurable, much easier. Besides--People are always interested in hearing about themselves. Be able to pick up on the clues they send off, you\'ll look like a brilliant conversationalist with a deep insight into your partner.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-10-2002, 01:17 PM
Camusflage, no I quite understand that the two processes are not opposed to one another. My complaint is that men, who are often more left-brained, are sometimes inclined to deride women\'s use of their intuition, because they see it as illogical. Some men who are very logical and deductive-reasoning oriented fail to see any value in intuition and put that process down as being inferior.

Interesting that you are intuitive, too -- I\'m finding that there are actually very few times when my intuition is off-target. What happens is that I manage to talk myself out of my intuition. Do you do that? Have you often had, as I have, incidences where you smack yourself on the head and say \"I KNEW that!\" -- you had an intuition response that appeared at the time to run counter to the facts, and it later turned out to be true? Sometimes it pays just to listen to yourself, is what I\'m finding.

camusflage
11-10-2002, 01:22 PM
I\'m fairly cautious with intuition.. To me, it\'s more something to eliminate processing inputs though the more costly logical process, rather than something to arrive at a decision on. I will, however, use it in the case of \"all things being equal\". In that case, it\'s something with a more grounded basis than the emotional coin flip.

As far as talking myself out of things, that doesn\'t really happen too often. Sometimes, a solution will \"pop out\" at me, but even then, it still has to go through the left brain to work its way out. It will, however, likely be the first solution I look at though.

CJ01
11-11-2002, 03:17 AM
7 PAGES!!!!!!!!!
/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

xxxPantero
11-11-2002, 07:30 AM
a quote from a woman...

\"we don\'t know exactly what we want. but we reserve the right to be pissed when we don\'t get it\"

it seems all of us men are doomed.

women, can\'t live with \'em, can\'t live...... what was that last part again?

druid
11-12-2002, 08:56 PM
I finally read this post . And here is my opinion

I like those fastseduction type sites. I don\'t do all those patterns and crap, but they have a lot of stuff on confidence and EC and stuff like that. They actually got me trying to talk to girls. I was completly clueless before I found them. No one ever told me and I could not figure it out for myself. And I sure as hell was not attracting girls before them (and they are only working minially now). So even if all they offer is a placebo effect well that is better than nothing.

As fas as women VS. men thinking, I don\'t think women are stupid but they are defintely different. AND I can\'t stand all those stupid fcking emotions. I hate it.(well there\'s an emotional response ) I have grown so actomosed to taking my emotions and burying them in the back of my mind that I can\'t uderstand (or even know how to react) when someone pours their heart out. I think what happens is that the emotions (for women) at times at leats, get intertwind with other mind-mechasisms. And that is what confuses men. Not that we\'re super inteligent anyway.

After reading this thread I still don\'t know what women what. Or even more accuarate what it will take for me to get a women thats want me......<sigh>

**DONOTDELETE**
11-13-2002, 02:23 PM
In response to:
<<<After reading this thread I still don\'t know what women what. Or even more accuarate what it will take for me to get a women thats want me......<sigh> >>>
I think that was the underlying point of the whole thread: How to get a woman (that I want) to want me. If we men knew the answer to that we would cure heartache forever.
PS - I screwed up a perfect opportunity to be wih a woman I really like and really want to start a relationship with. Unfortunately my self preservation kicked in and I was unable to express my feelings for her...she wrote me off as a player, and lost interest <double sigh>

Elana
11-13-2002, 02:38 PM
RscuRngr- Are you sure you aren\'t giving up to early?

**DONOTDELETE**
11-13-2002, 02:56 PM
I still talk to her, and we\'re affectionate. But she\'s an emotional train wreck, and I can\'t push myself on her. Unfortunately my time here (in this town) is almost up. It\'s just poor timing all the way around. If I was going to be here for longer I would have more hope, but for now I\'m writing it off as a \"relationship that could have been\" There are plenty more fish in the sea - especially when I get home to S. FL...

Elana
11-13-2002, 03:00 PM
If she is an \"emotional train wreck\" then there was probably nothing you could have said or done to have a relationship with her now.
Maybe I\'ll set you up with one of my crazy South Florida friends /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Whitehall
11-13-2002, 04:07 PM
From reading the \"Girl Stuff\" thread, I\'d have to conclude that a better hair conditioner on the list.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-13-2002, 05:16 PM
That, and some kind of nail polish that is impervious to household detergents. That would be heaven.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 01:07 PM
Going back to the original question (sorry I just joined and can\'t help myself). \"Do women place value more on personality traits than physical traits?\" I would have to say that women put just as much emphasis on physical traits than us males do. As much as you want to argue the point, and say that this is a load of bull ****, the truth of the matter is that I\'m right. The only difference is that men are okay with the fact that physical appearance is a huge factor for them. women on the other hand have to go with the more...\"politically correct\" answer. No women out there can honestly say that if they were to go to the club and see two men standing next to eachother, one a 6\' 2\" well built model looking type with no personality, and let\'s say a 5\' 7\" skinny, not so good looking guy with glasses, that she would pick the not so good looking guy. Even if he had the best personality in the world, the 6\' 2\" Mens Health model would still prevail.

franki
11-18-2002, 01:21 PM
\" I would have to say that women put just as much emphasis on physical traits than us males do.\"

Well, I think nobody (here) would agree with you on that. In my book women put less emphasis on looks than men do. Other factors like smell and personality are more important to women than to men.

belgareth
11-18-2002, 01:42 PM
After I divorced my first wife, about 17 years ago, and moved 300 miles away to avoid her and her family, I joined the group Parents without Partners. Good way to meet people, right? It was discouraging.

Now, I am average looking with a decent sense of humor and like to make people laugh. Go to an event, say the Holloween party. Meet a nice seeming lady and start a conversation. Within about ten minutes the conversation always rolled around to \"What kind of work do you do? Oh, does that pay a lot? Sounds like a nice job, is it secure? Would you please give me a copy of your resume and credit history?\"

I finally stopped telling them I was an engineer and started saying I flipped hamburgers for a living. Amazing how quickly they started finding something interesting across the room.

Not all women are gold hunters, I know that and I am sorry if I offend anybody with my remarks. There were some good hearted people in the group but it seemed a preponderance of the 25-35 year old women were looking for a husband who made good money. They couldn\'t have cared less about either looks or personality.

Belgareth

**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 01:54 PM
Parents Without Partners -- Women with children to support on their own, even if their husbands pay child support and alimony, sometimes have a very hard time of it, and romantic illusions about \"two can live as cheaply as one\" fly out the window. They don\'t want to get involved with someone who flips burgers - they just can\'t afford to, if not for themselves, for their childrens\' sake. At least they found you attractive enough to bother checking you out. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

It works in reverse, too, the gold digger thing. I\'ve been invited to some fairly high level parties here in town. All I have to do is open my mouth and say I\'m a secretary. See how fast the guy turns on his heel and heads across the room. The men here want women who make money, too - or at least who have jobs with high status titles.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 01:56 PM
Frankie, no need to get your panties in a bundle. I\'m simply stating my opinion. I\'m not trying to satisfy everyones ego\'s by saying what they want to hear. I will be the first to admit though, that whomever that RedHead so-and-so is, is one of the most intelectually stimulating women I have ever come accross. For some reason her writing just draws me in. Also, keep in mind that I\'m saying what I believe to be true, and maybe I\'m wrong, I\'m no expert, I\'ll be the first to admit. After all isn\'t Bill Cosby who said \"The road to failure is to please everyone!\" Maybe you should\" Praxis, was Sie predigen (you are in Germany right?) But I\'m glad that you have chosen to speak for everyone (sarcastic).

For the Record:
I know that all women are different, each one having her own individual set of wants and needs. My opinions come from what I have experienced from past girl friends and friends that are girls. While I believe that women in general have just as strong feelings towards physical characteristics as men do, I do believe that there are open minded, and intellegent women, who believe otherwise, such as RedHead! I also believe that there are men who feel that looks are not as important as personality, myself being one of them. But, I would be a complete liar if I said that looks played no role what-so-ever in my selection process.

Please excuse my previous post if you got the wrong idea about my opinions, it was written very quickley, as I am preparing for a presentation for my meeting tomorrow. I don\'t even know how I found this site, but it has been entertaining.

Also, for the record. I am a horrible speller...Thank God for spell check.

Whitehall
11-18-2002, 01:59 PM
Have to agree, most grown-up women do consider a grown-up man\'s ability to earn a living a necessary but not sufficient condition, at least for a long term relationship. That really is a good test and I don\'t blame women at all. It is very behaviorally based and seldom about looks or personality. Once you make the \"can make a living\" cut, then looks and personality help determine how sexy a woman you can court.

As for \"Parent without Partners,\" the women all had children I presume. What kind of mother would bring home another mouth to feed, thereby taking resources from her children, just so she could delight in some pretty male company? Most single moms could never afford that luxury and would be irresponsible in so doing.

Just a grim reality - I\'m not much of a romantic as you might tell.

franki
11-18-2002, 02:07 PM
Quote from me:
\"Other factors like smell and personality are more important to women than to men.\"

Yeah, I forgot \"money\", to some women the biggest attractant it seems. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

franki
11-18-2002, 02:20 PM
Qoute from JustWondering:
\"But I\'m glad that you have chosen to speak for everyone (sarcastic).\"

Quote from me:
\"Well, I think nobody (here) would agree with you on that.\"

I didn\'t say you were wrong, I said I THOUGHT most people WOULDN\'T agree with you. /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

druid
11-18-2002, 02:56 PM
Ok what do most women find good looking? Is it just body or is it face/hair/cloths? I think that looks do play a role. Though I think it is clearer to say that \"Women want a man that they find physically attrative\". The other way implies some universal standard as to what constitues a good lookin man. which I think does not exist. I peosonally think that being in decent shape, having hair that is well kept, and dressing in a normal way (not dressing like a bum or a goth -- unless the girl is a bum or a goth /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif ) is enough for most women. Also I think being extremly obese will also destroy your chances.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 03:38 PM
I hate to say it, but the latter is true. I got the best letter as a response to one of my personal ads and was so excited about it - until I scrolled down and saw the picture. This guy had to have weighed 350 pounds, I\'m not kidding you. The mind on him knocked me out. The body could not have sex like I like to. There\'s no way. It\'s not even so much that the weight is unattractive. It\'s that it\'s not functional.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 04:09 PM
Red,

My point exactly!

druid
11-18-2002, 04:27 PM
it really is sad that so many people are that obese. IMO it is so easy to lose weight (see the Weight thread in the off-topic forum). IMO very few people have legitamate reasons to be obese (disease that cripples or extremly bad genetics) but for most people is is simply of matter of the poor food supply and lack of physical activity.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 04:37 PM
JustWondering, honey, that was not your point, exactly. (welcome and thanks for the compliments, by the way) You said women are as hung up on looks as men are. They aren\'t. Ask us, we\'ll tell you. Oh, and then you\'ll argue. Ok, never mind. (I\'m teasing you now)

A guy who\'s so fat he can hardly walk is not going to make me happy in bed, which, let\'s face it, candlelit dinners and walks on the beach aside, that\'s what he\'s really going for. Among other things, maybe, but it\'s for sure he\'s not going to be taking me out for the sheer pleasure of my company unless he is angling for some nookie, too. Am I right? So the weight thing has got nothing to do with his looks. I don\'t care, up to about 280. 350-400 pounds and I can\'t even imagine it.

Let\'s put it this way. I think most women can find a man attractive enough to go to bed with or have an affair with or get involved with in some way if he is somewhere between 5-10 on the looks scale and there is something about his personality that appeals to her.

Now, what about personality appeals? Sense of humor, intelligence, blah de blah de blah. Yeah, ok, that\'s all true. But the real secret is that she believes and can feel that the guy GENUINELY LIKES HER.

Women, do you agree or have I got it all wrong? The guys want this down to a science; I\'m trying to help. Tonight, that\'s what I think is the secret. Maybe you ladies know more.

Gerund
11-18-2002, 08:26 PM
------------------------------------------
...the real secret is that she believes and can feel that the guy GENUINELY LIKES HER.
------------------------------------------

FTR\'s right about that. In the \"Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus\" books by John Gray, he takes great pains to hammer home one point that guys should take to heart, to the effect of:

\"Almost all men vastly underestimate how much power they possess to attract women. A man exercises this power when he simply: lets a woman know that he likes her, or that he\'s attracted to her, or that he finds her interesting, or that he\'s interested in her, that she captures his imagination, etc.

You get the idea. Wish I could find the exact quote in the book. But anyway, he\'s dead on about all kinds of things, especially differing emotional needs and ways of communicating that leave both men & women confused about what the hell the other wants, or what makes them tick.

sophie
11-18-2002, 09:19 PM
I\'m glad this thread is active again because I have some more to add also. justwondering, you have some interesting points but...as far as picking some hunk against a guy who is not \"hunky\" (pardon the paraphrase) you couldn\'t be more wrong. HOWEVER, it depends on which of them would be the more scintillating conversationalist (for one thing). Also which one has the most sincerity in interacting with a woman. Does he just want in our pants, or does he really seem interested, person to person? (Gerund, you are right about: does he genuinely LIKE her, that is so key).

IMO, Franki sees things pretty true, I appreciate that.

On the money question, I (speaking for myself only) am definitely not monetarily oriented, anyone who knows me knows that. But I do know women who are,and I only understand that thinking to a certain degree. I have never completely understood the concept of \"class by money\".

and the obesity factor, big men are OK (fine in fact, mostly IMO),but like you said FTR, if it gets to a point where physical interaction is not feasible, it\'s a problem.

well, here\'s my ultimate point,as has been discussed in the phero realm often enough: what women want often depends on what phase of their monthly cycle they\'e in. When I posted a couple of weeks ago I was in my hot and horny cycle of OV, and now I\'m PMS and calm, and craving the stability of a permanent relationship. But when I\'m in that OV phase, please excuse my rantings, I am just not in control. It is an animal lust,and it passes soon enough. So men, hope this helps explains (in part anyway) why womens\' moods and desires can change so much. I\'m not touting anything new, just reiterating what\'s been said before.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 10:29 PM
#1 Thanks to all for continuing to educate me.
#2 Some women want \"money\" but can\'t see it when it smacks them in the face. There is a semi-joke in my industry:
How do you tell the difference between a millionaire, and a billionaire?
The millionaire shows up in a rolls royce, wearing armani, and a Patek Phillipe.
The billionaire shows up in a jeep cherokee wearing a t-shirt, jeans and a casio.
Why? Because the billionaire doesn\'t have to prove that he\'s financially super-wealthy. The millionaire is still insecure. Trust me this is based on truth - I\'ve seen it with my own eyes.
and #3 Nice guys finish last. Until that hottie gets burned out on jar-heads and decides to commit to a real man.

Bottle
03-28-2004, 09:15 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Damnit! I missed this

thread!
&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;Picking up from FTR\'s points:
&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;Women want and appriciate a

secure man. Hell everyone values security. But most people dont understand what this means. Just as FTR said, you

need to establish your own beliefs and ideals away from the crowd, thus setting you apart and making you seem to be

your own man, something my dad is very adiment about. This is confidence, in your self, and in your social standing

(but at the same time not caring what your \"status\" is, you know who you are, and that you are to be valued for

you). But then this is only half the battle, you have to live by your values, and not sell out on them. If

you talk to a woman and she disagrees with something you said, a very typical reaction is to back track and renounce

your statment. Now is that confidence? Is that being your own man? In fact if this is you, then you are no man.

Confidence is not something you are born with, you \"earn it\", just like respect. They are pretty much paralell,

in that you want (and realistically need, if you want any success) the respect of women. Its also a sefl

perpetuating cycle, you act with more confidence, you get more respect, you get more confident. Also, the more

people who see you being respected and valued, the more you will people (male and female) will want to be around

you.
&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;Another thing;
&lt;br&gt;What do you think women mean when they say they want a good

personality in a man, but most of all, a sense of humour. Guys think about this before you read, and ladies correct

me if I\'m wrong.
&lt;br&gt;Yes, obviously that means they want to laugh, have fun, be excited, distracted from

the general miseries of life, and they want this fom their man. I\'m hoping most of you knew that. But then, how

do you do this? Being able to tell the odd joke does not equate to having a desirable personality, just as being the

typical nice guy doesnt. Being able to brighten up the room with your presence, and make the whole atmosphere

boyant, thats what you have to do. The worst thing that you can be is boring. Well duh! i hear you say. But let me

tell you, the most common reason for men being dumped is because the woman has become bored. Do you think this can

be solved will a joke? Er...no. The main problem is most people have no idea how to be interesting, which leads to

desirability, which leads to value. The key is....
&lt;br&gt;...(wait for

it)...
&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;...VARIETY
&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;Simple as that. Never get stuck into a

routine, even if at first it got the attention of your woman (this applies almsot universally), because I can

guarentee it will become boring. If you stay interesting, then she (or they &lt;img

src=\"/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif\"&gt; ) will stay interested. Getting stuck into a routine is too

reminisant of the guy who tries to hard to please his woman, and gets the woman thinking that she can do better. She

will sense that you are doing this souly to please her, and not to have fun and enjoy yourself. Again, being your

own man is important. If you are not having fun, say so and/or do something else. If you dissagree or are not happy

with something, say so, don\'t just get walked on. But then dont be a jerk, after all you do actually want her to

be happy, but just not at your expense.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

yep!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Bottle
03-28-2004, 09:38 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Yes, it\'s correct -- I posted links above. The

thing about how and why women talk, and how frustrating it is for a woman to try to talk to a man when he keeps

butting in and saying \"Do this! Well, then, do that!\" is well documented; many counselors have written advice

about this phenomenon. I think it has to do with the fact that women connect everything both factually and

emotionally at the same time. So while a woman is trying to convey an emotional experience, the man is just

processing the facts she\'s reciting, and expecting them to lead to some conclusion. When they don\'t, and if

she doesn\'t tell the story in a linear fashion, he just can\'t process and stops listening/shuts down. I\'ve

seen more fights betwen men and women because of this, where she says \"You talk to me like you think I\'m

stupid\" (because he keeps telling her what to do) and he is completely bewildered because how could his reaction

be wrong? It\'s LOGICAL. arggg
&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I

learnt to just give the women I loved a hug /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

thank god

Icarus
03-28-2004, 10:01 AM
Whitehall:</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
But then, he died a virgin.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Falsehood! He had it off with some prostitute when he was a lad!

Steve

Bernard
05-04-2004, 07:14 AM
yes i

agree that women may not put looks as important as men . im sure all of u agree that no matter u are a men or

awomen. u do like good looks , isnt it?lets forget about whether looks are important for amoment. let me ask u, do

you women belive in love at first sight. if u do, what makes u think that u fall in love with him just one look. u

know nothing about him, what kind of person he is and yet women say that they fall in love with him.when comes to

sex ,do woemn prefer ahunk or ordinay guy.lets assume that both of them have equal flirting skills. which of them do

u prefer?i recetly read that a hunk makes love to mother , aunt and daughter. he is the girl\'s boyfriend. when

asking the mother and the aunt why they do that and betray their daughter ,they say he is too handsome to resist! it

shows women are unable to resist hunk eventhough they feel that looks are important to them. i also need to reming

women that though men cliamed women looks are important to men, u do see lots handsome men with ordinary looking

women.so what does that show? men and women are the same. it is only that we interpret it differently only.another

thing is that men are the usual pursuer.men not only chase the beautiful babes, we would also go for ordinary women

with outstanding / attractive characters too !dont women does that too if they the

pursuer/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

pardon me for poor language /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana
05-04-2004, 07:21 AM
I prefer

a good looking man with a nice body.
Simple as that

Yes, he must have a great personality, similar beliefs and a

great sense of humor, but first there must be chemistry.

Sexyredhead
05-04-2004, 07:27 AM
I

don\'t believe in love at first site. I also don\'t believe a pretty face or a hot body is enough to betray your

family/friends over.

You can\'t generalize with women any more than you can with men.

Elana
05-04-2004, 07:29 AM
No...I

don\'t believe in LOVE at first site. LUST at first site......for certain!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tounge
05-04-2004, 02:09 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
&lt;br&gt;------------------------------------------&lt;br&gt;...the real secret is that she believes and can

feel that the guy GENUINELY LIKES

HER.&lt;br&gt;------------------------------------------&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;FTR\'s right about that. In the

\"Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus\" books by John Gray, he takes great pains to hammer home one point that

guys should take to heart, to the effect of:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;\"Almost all men vastly underestimate how much

power they possess to attract women. A man exercises this power when he simply: lets a woman know that he likes

her, or that he\'s attracted to her, or that he finds her interesting, or that he\'s interested in her, that she

captures his imagination, etc.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\"> Absolute Rubbish!

sophie
05-07-2004, 08:49 PM
OMG, why

is this thread still around?? I stop in to lurk for the first time in about 3 months and this damn thread is still

here.

hi everyone, I am not the same person that posted this original thread although a part of me is....(been

thru so many midlife crises since then, I am definitely not the same person), but it sure is intriguing to read now.

just saying hi. I love you all as always. Especially elana, love your candor. I\'m striving for that too. XXOO

Elana
05-08-2004, 05:25 AM
{{{{{{Sophie}}}}}}} I wish you would stick around. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I totally

miss you.

I am PMing you

tallmacky
05-08-2004, 02:00 PM
Hey

Sophie! Deja vu, eh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess you can\'t split women down the

middle, but what many are forgetting or I didn\'t see yet, is I think looks/sexuality in a man matter more to a

woman depending on her own sexual libido. If her sexual liking/libido or just man-liking is higher then she will

probably enjoy sexuality more, and thus men\'s looks are going to actually be more relevent. So looks are going to

matter, and the physical cannot just be ignored, visual over mental. Still women come in all varieties and

percentages, so thinking about it is almost irrelevent. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Those

women who aren\'t very sexual in that way, looks may take a backseat a bit more to how they feel, and walking on

the beach and reading poetry to eachother, and laughing....and other puke worthy stuff.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good post, and Pantero, you keep goin\' after them, and yes

women are the prey? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Yeah right!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BigGulp
05-08-2004, 02:11 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Hey Sophie! Deja vu, eh?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess you can\'t split women down the middle, but what many

are forgetting or I didn\'t see yet, is I think looks/sexuality in a man matter more to a woman depending on her

own sexual libido. If her sexual liking/libido or just man-liking is higher then she will probably enjoy sexuality

more, and thus men\'s looks are going to actually be more relevent. So looks are going to matter, and the physical

cannot just be ignored, visual over mental. Still women come in all varieties and percentages, so thinking about it

is almost irrelevent. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Those women who aren\'t very sexual in

that way, looks may take a backseat a bit more to how they feel, and walking on the beach and reading poetry to

eachother, and laughing....and other puke worthy stuff. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good

post, and Pantero, you keep goin\' after them, and yes women are the prey?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Yeah right! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Boy TM, I see it entirely differently. I see women with the

highest drive being far less driven by the looks of a guy. They may be turned on by him and hit the sack with him

but if he doesn\'t preform she isn\'t going to stay very long and will soon be looking for somebody that can

really scratch the itch. At that point looks are secondary.

tallmacky
05-08-2004, 02:17 PM
I am

just shooting the [censored]. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yah, win on this one.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I had to add something to all of that personality only talk.

Elana
05-08-2004, 02:22 PM
How

about both? A hot guy that is a terrific Fvck

tallmacky
05-08-2004, 02:26 PM
I

think people natural seperate it for some reason. Like a guy with a large unit, but for some reason cannot please a

woman? Then they talk about the guy with the small unit who is a master in bed, I think its all propoganda.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Same goes for the hot guy thing. People always ask to women like

in this thread, would you want a hot guy who is a [censored] or a ugly guy who is the sweetest person....Is there

not both? Talk about generalizations. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Try to make those

generalizations about women and see your ass on fire! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana
05-08-2004, 02:27 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Try to make those generalizations about women and

see your ass on fire!

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It\'s been done on this

forum....right Exit63? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just look in this thread

tallmacky
05-08-2004, 02:29 PM
[censored] [censored] bitch [censored] [censored] ass ass ass ass ass

Yeah the censor is back?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

BigGulp
05-08-2004, 02:31 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
How about both? A hot guy that is a terrific Fvck



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


What with Viagra and all there\'s no reason why a woman

can\'t have both unless the guy is a total macho door knob.

Elana
05-08-2004, 02:32 PM
Jason....what did Chester do to Ash? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Elana
05-08-2004, 02:34 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
How about both? A hot guy that is a terrific Fvck

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


What with Viagra and all there\'s no reason why a woman can\'t have

both unless the guy is a total macho door knob.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Why would a hot

guy necessarily need viagra. Stop dissing the pretty people. It is the same as saying all unattractive people

are...blah, blah, blah....all brown haired men are blah, blah, blah

tallmacky
05-08-2004, 02:37 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Jason....what did Chester do to Ash?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It involved

the \"pipino\", that\'s all i\'m saying for BigGulp\'s sake.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Elana
05-08-2004, 02:38 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Jason....what did Chester do to Ash?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I am sorry. That was supposed to be a PM.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Elana
05-08-2004, 02:39 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Jason....what did Chester do to Ash?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

It involved

the \"pipino\", that\'s all i\'m saying for BigGulp\'s sake.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

OH MY!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Pics?

tallmacky
05-08-2004, 02:44 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


OH MY!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Pics?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Yeah,

Ash sent me one. BigGulp after attack (\"http://www.triflux.com/mc/Larry_C.jpg\")

BigGulp
05-08-2004, 02:46 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
How about

both? A hot guy that is a terrific Fvck

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


What with Viagra and

all there\'s no reason why a woman can\'t have both unless the guy is a total macho door knob.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Why would a hot guy necessarily need viagra. Stop dissing the pretty

people. It is the same as saying all unattractive people are...blah, blah, blah....all brown haired men are blah,

blah, blah

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



It really is a full moon this month.

What

I\'m saying is that just because a guy has a great package is no guarantee that he\'s able to use it well or

that it\'s in good working order. This can give the dweeb with the \"hot stick\" an advantage with the 10% or so

of women that need it done right and need it often. I\'m talking about super-sexual women here that need more than

the average 5 minute non-skilled worker. Geez. Where\'s the argument?

Elana
05-08-2004, 02:49 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It really is a full moon this month.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Oh honey....it\'s not the full moon that is making you talk crap.

Chester really messed you up. I think he has forever screwed you up in the cabesa.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Poor, poor scrambled eggs for brains, Big Gulp.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

BigGulp
05-08-2004, 02:53 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It really is a full moon this month.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Oh honey....it\'s not the full moon that is making you talk crap. Chester really messed

you up. I think he has forever screwed you up in the cabesa. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Poor, poor scrambled eggs for brains, Big Gulp. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Yeah, my vision\'s been a little blurry too. I think I should

see somebody about that.

DCW
05-15-2004, 01:38 PM
I heard a preacher

on the radio awhile back and he gave a list of things that women want in a relationship #1 on the list was

communication.
Someone who she talk to and who is responsive, that’s why u find a lot of lonely women on chat

lines.
The #1 for men was sex (anyone surprised?) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif so

the
problem arises when he %$$%%^ u then falls asleep or don\'t call (sound

familiar?)/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif.
So men if you want the pum pum u better be a decent

listener
and be verbally available.



DCW

Don\'t hate the hater, hate the skater

-Lincoln

Pancho1188
05-17-2004, 11:24 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I heard a preacher on the radio awhile back and he

gave a list of things that women want in a relationship #1 on the list was communication.
Someone who she talk to

and who is responsive, that’s why u find a lot of lonely women on chat lines.
The #1 for men was sex (anyone

surprised?) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif so the
problem arises when he %$$%%^ u then falls

asleep or don\'t call (sound familiar?)/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif.
So men if you want

the pum pum u better be a decent listener
and be verbally available.



DCW

Don\'t hate the hater,

hate the skater -Lincoln


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I like these little surveys. I

always think that \"regularly-scheduled sex\" should be #1 on everyone\'s list...I mean, this is truly the

defining characteristic of a relationship. If you\'re having regular sex, you know you\'re in a relationship

(of course, if you\'re not, you could either be single or married...I don\'t know which

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif). Honestly, what else can\'t you get from your best friend? I

had this argument with two girls, one being my future girlfriend (how\'d I recover from that debacle? I have no

idea)...but seriously...my best friend at the time, to whom I was talking to about this, and I connected on a level

that you wouldn\'t believe. She told me things she never told anyone else, we were so close on an emotional level

that it wasn\'t even funny...she loved me more than anything in the world...but we didn\'t have sex. She

finally \"gave in\" and became my girlfriend, and that night we had sex...which led to more later. What changed?

Well, we were still connected in a way that some people only dream of...we still loved each other...the only

difference was one little thing that ticks in a person\'s brain that says, \"I want to have sex with this person

on a regular basis as well as be their #1 companion.\"

...they always say you should marry your best friend (of

the opposite sex...or same if that\'s your preference)...I wonder why...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Could it be because you have everything you want and are just

not having sex? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Yes, you could have regular sex with your best

friend, but then you\'re just kidding yourself that it doesn\'t mean more to one of the two people

involved.

Think about it...if you\'re communicating but you\'re not having regular sex, you might as well be

friends. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If you\'re having sex but not communicating, you

should be strangers meeting in the night for a one-night stand...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m all for communication, but I

don\'t consider it the #1 do-all, say-all, defines-a-relationship thing. I can call my mom or talk to my friend

if I really need to talk...I\'m not about to ask my best male friend to b------you get my point.


The

previous post was, as usual, a nice way for Pancho to put a spin on everything and break down things into their

basic components, which usually confuses the hell out of everyone. Reader discretion is advised.

Brian
05-17-2004, 03:27 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I prefer a good looking man with a nice

body.
Simple as that

Yes, he must have a great personality, similar beliefs and a great sense of humor, but

first there must be chemistry.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

And don\'t forget a great

looking penis! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DCW
05-17-2004, 07:03 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I heard a preacher on the radio awhile back and he gave a list of things that

women want in a relationship #1 on the list was communication.
Someone who she talk to and who is responsive,

that’s why u find a lot of lonely women on chat lines.
The #1 for men was sex (anyone surprised?)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif so the
problem arises when he %$$%%^ u then falls asleep or

don\'t call (sound familiar?)/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif.
So men if you want the pum pum

u better be a decent listener
and be verbally available.



DCW

Don\'t hate the hater, hate the skater

-Lincoln


<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I like these little surveys. I always think that

\"regularly-scheduled sex\" should be #1 on everyone\'s list...I mean, this is truly the defining characteristic

of a relationship. If you\'re having regular sex, you know you\'re in a relationship (of course, if you\'re

not, you could either be single or married...I don\'t know which

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif). Honestly, what else can\'t you get from your best friend? I

had this argument with two girls, one being my future girlfriend (how\'d I recover from that debacle? I have no

idea)...but seriously...my best friend at the time, to whom I was talking to about this, and I connected on a level

that you wouldn\'t believe. She told me things she never told anyone else, we were so close on an emotional level

that it wasn\'t even funny...she loved me more than anything in the world...but we didn\'t have sex. She

finally \"gave in\" and became my girlfriend, and that night we had sex...which led to more later. What changed?

Well, we were still connected in a way that some people only dream of...we still loved each other...the only

difference was one little thing that ticks in a person\'s brain that says, \"I want to have sex with this person

on a regular basis as well as be their #1 companion.\"

...they always say you should marry your best friend (of

the opposite sex...or same if that\'s your preference)...I wonder why...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Could it be because you have everything you want and are just

not having sex? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Yes, you could have regular sex with your best

friend, but then you\'re just kidding yourself that it doesn\'t mean more to one of the two people

involved.

Think about it...if you\'re communicating but you\'re not having regular sex, you might as well be

friends. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If you\'re having sex but not communicating, you

should be strangers meeting in the night for a one-night stand...

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m all for communication, but I

don\'t consider it the #1 do-all, say-all, defines-a-relationship thing. I can call my mom or talk to my friend

if I really need to talk...I\'m not about to ask my best male friend to b------you get my point.


The

previous post was, as usual, a nice way for Pancho to put a spin on everything and break down things into their

basic components, which usually confuses the hell out of everyone. Reader discretion is advised.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

How old are u?
Your a divorce lawyer\'s dream you have a least 3

marriages in your future. Keep those support payments coming.
If you think sex is enough to sustain a marriage or

relationship your out of your %%$$##$$% mind.
Just ask Cindy Crawford, Venessa Williams, Posh Spice and all the

other beautiful women that had their husbands cheat on them.
And vise versa all the men who wives are surfing the

net looking for a connection.

My guess it that your young and your hormones are jumping out of your pants. I

suggest that you print out this post and keep it in a safe place where you can look back and learn from

it.

DCW

A bird in the bush is worth two in the tush. - Marie Antonette

Pancho1188
05-18-2004, 12:14 PM
First of

all, it was a joke. Second of all, it wasn\'t referring to what sustains a relationship but what differentiates

it.

I didn\'t say for a second that regular sex would give you a great, successful relationship. I said

it\'s the main output from having one. Looking at it from an emotionally-neutral, cynical standpoint (including

the \"nobody has a soulmate, just someone you can stand long enough to live with\" philosophy), what else does it

give you that you couldn\'t get from your best friend?

Relationships require communication, love,

support, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

As far as what you want from a relationship? Well, you\'ve

better be getting one of two things:

1. Peace of mind that you have the most wonderful person that you

connect with on an unbelievably close level and feel that no matter what happens in your life you will always love

and be loved by that one special person in your life.
2. Regular sex.

I\'m sorry, if you\'re cheap

like me, 3 things:

3. Split the cost of rent/mortgage and utilities...tax breaks...etc.

But you can

have a relationship and not live together, so it\'s more of a bonus for co-habitating relationships.

Even

then, I\'d see #1 as a stretch for differentiating from friendship because I felt that way about my best female

friend before we actually started going out...


Anyway, it was a joke, just like my horrible

simplification above, and anyone who knew me well enough, even in the confines of this forum, would know that I was

giving a cynically analytical view that doesn\'t reflect at all the feelings I have of relationships...since most

people make fun of me on here for idealizing marriage for being the thing I hope I will one day be able to properly

(as in forever) engage in when the appropriate time comes.

As for being a horn-dog...\"Don\'t worry about

me. I won a contest!!!\" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif




PS: I am fully aware that I make bad jokes. The

person/people giving every one of my postings 1-star remind(s) me every day. Maybe one day he/she/they will upgrade

to wasting a few minutes of their time telling me exactly why and how bad my postings suck...besides the obvious.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Bottle
05-24-2004, 11:40 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />



PS: I am fully aware that I make bad jokes.

The person/people giving every one of my postings 1-star remind(s) me every day. Maybe one day he/she/they will

upgrade to wasting a few minutes of their time telling me exactly why and how bad my postings suck...besides the

obvious. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

OMG....OMFG.....GD....Panchoh mate...this is very sad behaviour, I think you need to address

some issues

Pancho1188
05-24-2004, 12:16 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />



PS: I am fully aware that I make bad jokes. The person/people giving

every one of my postings 1-star remind(s) me every day. Maybe one day he/she/they will upgrade to wasting a few

minutes of their time telling me exactly why and how bad my postings suck...besides the obvious.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

OMG....OMFG.....GD....Panchoh mate...this is very sad behaviour, I think you need to address

some issues

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

???

Bottle
05-24-2004, 02:16 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />



PS: I

am fully aware that I make bad jokes. The person/people giving every one of my postings 1-star remind(s) me every

day. Maybe one day he/she/they will upgrade to wasting a few minutes of their time telling me exactly why and how

bad my postings suck...besides the obvious. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

OMG....OMFG.....GD....Panchoh mate...this is very sad behaviour, I think

you need to address some issues

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

???

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

a lost cause I see

Pancho1188
05-24-2004, 02:30 PM
I like when

people read something and say, \"That\'s just sad,\" without any reasoning behind it whatsoever.

Yes, it must

be very sad that I write bad jokes. If that\'s true, then everyone is sad because everybody\'s jokes are bad to

someone. I\'m just admitting that many people don\'t like them. I guess that\'s sad. In fact, I should seek

help because I think that somebody on earth doesn\'t like my jokes. I am perfect and everybody loves what I have

to say. I should only write what makes everybody happy, and God forbid that I do anything outside of this

mindset.

It\'s so sad that I admit that many people give me 1-star and that I request someone to give me

feedback on that rating so that maybe I can understand their viewpoint. God forbid I wonder just what goes on in

other people\'s heads.

That\'s just sad. In fact, I\'m going to seek counseling at once to guess as to why

anyone would not like anything I have to say because I am perfect and everybody should love me!!!



Give me a

break...

BigGulp
05-24-2004, 06:41 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I like when people read something and say,

\"That\'s just sad,\" without any reasoning behind it whatsoever.

Yes, it must be very sad that I write bad

jokes. If that\'s true, then everyone is sad because everybody\'s jokes are bad to someone. I\'m just

admitting that many people don\'t like them. I guess that\'s sad. In fact, I should seek help because I think

that somebody on earth doesn\'t like my jokes. I am perfect and everybody loves what I have to say. I should

only write what makes everybody happy, and God forbid that I do anything outside of this mindset.

It\'s so sad

that I admit that many people give me 1-star and that I request someone to give me feedback on that rating so that

maybe I can understand their viewpoint. God forbid I wonder just what goes on in other people\'s

heads.

That\'s just sad. In fact, I\'m going to seek counseling at once to guess as to why anyone would not

like anything I have to say because I am perfect and everybody should love me!!!



Give me a break...

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">


Wow Pancho. That was really sad.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Pancho1188
05-25-2004, 04:06 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
I like when people read something and say, \"That\'s just sad,\" without

any reasoning behind it whatsoever.

Yes, it must be very sad that I write bad jokes. If that\'s true, then

everyone is sad because everybody\'s jokes are bad to someone. I\'m just admitting that many people don\'t

like them. I guess that\'s sad. In fact, I should seek help because I think that somebody on earth doesn\'t

like my jokes. I am perfect and everybody loves what I have to say. I should only write what makes everybody

happy, and God forbid that I do anything outside of this mindset.

It\'s so sad that I admit that many people

give me 1-star and that I request someone to give me feedback on that rating so that maybe I can understand their

viewpoint. God forbid I wonder just what goes on in other people\'s heads.

That\'s just sad. In fact,

I\'m going to seek counseling at once to guess as to why anyone would not like anything I have to say because I am

perfect and everybody should love me!!!



Give me a break...

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">


Wow Pancho. That was really sad. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

DrSmellThis
05-25-2004, 01:06 PM
Pancho, I

think originally someone (I don\'t remember who it was) was trying to look out for you, by saying that the general

tone of your post was a little too self-deprecating for someone with high self-esteem. It probably reminded them of

their own struggles with insecurity or bad feelings about themselves, whether past or present. I don\'t think they

originally meant \"sad\" as in \"pathetic.\"

But you were sort of \"playing into a game\" in this

thread for a while, because you didn\'t get the original point, and no one wanted to explain it. They wanted you

to get it on your own, I am guessing.

It never works to invite anything but purely constructive

criticism of oneself, and then only judiciously and in small proportion to the amount of praise you invite. Because

any sign of biological submission biologically invites domination. Every instinct and hormone and biochemical in

someone\'s body will then be prompting them to try to assert domination over you. It just doesn\'t work as a

strategy with other people, because people are monkeys, and monkeys can\'t resist. Offering something something in

a submissive way might be giving them something; but it is the one kind of giving that is sure to be met with even

more taking.

For example, even reading your \"...I might be wrong\" signature is enough to trigger

domination instincts in some people. It is definitely not taken as just, \"Wow, what wonderfully agreeable guy!\"

It can sometimes be taken that way too, but always with a pinch of inviting domination to go along with it.



I think we all have to deal with ourselves as monkeys, consciously, before moving on to other aspects of

day-to-day life. Then it is an interesting challenge to find a middle path that leads to excellence. Bush is an

example of someone who failed at this. He takes the other extreme, the \"I\'m always right, and you\'re

wrong\" approach. Kerry is also failing in this regard, as he too often communicates that \"both sides are right

in their own way!\" So he is seen as a \"straddler\". But since people are monkeys first, Bush will probably win

the election, since he acts more dominant; unless Kerry matures as a man quickly, especially since there is so much

monkey business to attend to in the world. That is sad to me, as Bush is so wrong about so many things. But right

now we live in very primitive society and world. The L-S forum is no exception.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JustPeachy
05-25-2004, 01:12 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It never works to invite anything but purely

constructive criticism of oneself, and then only judiciously and in small proportion to the amount of praise you

invite. Because any sign of biological submission biologically invites domination. Every instinct and hormone and

biochemical in someone\'s body will then be prompting them to try to assert domination over you. It just

doesn\'t work as a strategy with other people, because people are monkeys, and monkeys can\'t resist. Offering

something something in a submissive way might be giving them something; but it is the one kind of giving that is

sure to be met with even more taking. Even reading your \"might be wrong\" signature is enough to trigger

domination instincts in some people. It is not taken as just, \"Wow, what wonderfully agreeable guy!\" It can

sometimes be taken that way too, but always with a pinch of inviting domination to go along with it.

I think we

all have to deal with ourselves as monkeys, consciously, before moving on to other aspects of day-to-day life.



<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Sheesh, Doc. The \"of course I could be wrong\" is Dennis

Miller\'s tagline. Tongue in cheek? Sardonicus maximus? It\'s not submissive, it\'s the the prelude to

\"Ahhh, fu** it. Who wwants pie?\" And as long as we\'re talking submissive stuff here, why does all the body

language literature refer to submissive and baby-like gestures as a form of inviting others to approach? slove that

stuff, too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

JustPeachy
05-25-2004, 01:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
slove that stuff, too.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Oops. Shoulda been \"monkeys love that stuff, too\". Couldn\'t edit

it. I\'m sooo sorry. I must be fallible. Imperfect. Humble. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

DrSmellThis
05-25-2004, 01:25 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
It never works to invite anything but purely constructive criticism of

oneself, and then only judiciously and in small proportion to the amount of praise you invite. Because any sign of

biological submission biologically invites domination. Every instinct and hormone and biochemical in someone\'s

body will then be prompting them to try to assert domination over you. It just doesn\'t work as a strategy with

other people, because people are monkeys, and monkeys can\'t resist. Offering something something in a submissive

way might be giving them something; but it is the one kind of giving that is sure to be met with even more taking.

Even reading your \"might be wrong\" signature is enough to trigger domination instincts in some people. It is not

taken as just, \"Wow, what wonderfully agreeable guy!\" It can sometimes be taken that way too, but always with a

pinch of inviting domination to go along with it.

I think we all have to deal with ourselves as monkeys,

consciously, before moving on to other aspects of day-to-day life.

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Sheesh, Doc. The \"of course I could be wrong\" is Dennis Miller\'s tagline. Tongue in

cheek? Sardonicus maximus? It\'s not submissive, it\'s the the prelude to \"Ahhh, fu** it. Who wwants pie?\"

And as long as we\'re talking submissive stuff here, why does all the body language literature refer to submissive

and baby-like gestures as a form of inviting others to approach? slove that stuff, too.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">Sure, it invites

them to approach; to dominate you. If you are going to trigger caretaking instincts as a grown man, you have to

balance that.

It doesn\'t matter a [censored] where he got that quote, Peachy. The effect is the same on a

psychological level. He posted it, not Miller. the rest was left out. The overall meaning is submissive, IMO. No big

deal though -- just a convenient example.

DrSmellThis
05-25-2004, 01:31 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
slove that stuff, too.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">



Oops. Shoulda been \"monkeys love that stuff, too\". Couldn\'t edit it. I\'m sooo sorry. I must be

fallible. Imperfect. Humble. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">
There is a big difference between submission and humility! We too often use false \"humility\"

as an excuse to justify submission. That lets us keep our victim status.

JustPeachy
05-25-2004, 01:50 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

There is a big difference between submission

and humility! We too often use false \"humility\" as an excuse to justify submission. That lets us keep our victim

status.

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

O.k. You\'ll insist on reading into the Miller

line no matte what I say.

We just as often use brute force where it isn\'t necessary. In fact \"we\" do

all kinds of weird stuff. But I agree with you about dropping the victim trip, no matter how it gets promoted. I do

see your point, btw. Not putting oneself down is a starting point. However, the most secure, self-respecting people

I have ever met are generally the first to admit their imperfections and accept them without hesitation. So I think

it\'s less a matter of what you do than the how and why of doing it.

She: \" I really suck at vehicle

maintenance. I just don\'t get it.\" (shrugs shoulders, palms up)

He: (gently removing the wrench from her

hand) \"Well, little darlin\', just let me take a look.\"

She: \"Gee, thanks.\"

He: \"Why

don\'t you go on back in the house now?\"

She: (removes wrench from HIS hand) \"Why don\'t you go back

in the house now? And maybe you can fix us something to eat while I\'m down at the auto supply buying a manual for

this ^%$^$!! thing.\"

Gee. I guess you\'re right. Humble &lt;&gt; submissive.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Sagacious1420
05-25-2004, 02:00 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />


She: \" I really suck at vehicle maintenance.

I just don\'t get it.\" (shrugs shoulders, palms up)

He: (gently removing the wrench from her hand) \"Well,

little darlin\', just let me take a look.\"

She: \"Gee, thanks.\"

He: \"Why don\'t you go on back in

the house now?\"

She: \"Why don\'t you go back in the house now? And maybe you can fix us something to eat

while I\'m down at the auto supply buying a manual for this ^%$^$!! thing.\"

Gee. I guess you\'re right.

Humble &lt;&gt; submissive. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Damn, I am so turned on right now! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pancho1188
05-25-2004, 02:07 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
Pancho, I think originally someone (I don\'t

remember who it was) was trying to look out for you, by saying that the general tone of your post was a little too

self-deprecating for someone with high self-esteem. It probably reminded them of their own struggles with insecurity

or bad feelings about themselves, whether past or present. I don\'t think they originally meant \"sad\" as in

\"pathetic.\"

But you were sort of \"playing into a game\" in this thread for a while, because you didn\'t

get the original point, and no one wanted to explain it. They wanted you to get it on your own, I am guessing.

It

never works to invite anything but purely constructive criticism of oneself, and then only judiciously and in

small proportion to the amount of praise you invite. Because any sign of biological submission biologically invites

domination. Every instinct and hormone and biochemical in someone\'s body will then be prompting them to try to

assert domination over you. It just doesn\'t work as a strategy with other people, because people are monkeys, and

monkeys can\'t resist. Offering something something in a submissive way might be giving them something; but it is

the one kind of giving that is sure to be met with even more taking.

For example, even reading your \"...I

might be wrong\" signature is enough to trigger domination instincts in some people. It is definitely not taken as

just, \"Wow, what wonderfully agreeable guy!\" It can sometimes be taken that way too, but always with a pinch of

inviting domination to go along with it.

I think we all have to deal with ourselves as monkeys, consciously,

before moving on to other aspects of day-to-day life. Then it is an interesting challenge to find a middle path that

leads to excellence. Bush is an example of someone who failed at this. He takes the other extreme, the \"I\'m

always right, and you\'re wrong\" approach. Kerry is also failing in this regard, as he too often communicates

that \"both sides are right in their own way!\" So he is seen as a \"straddler\". But since people are monkeys

first, Bush will probably win the election, since he acts more dominant; unless Kerry matures as a man quickly,

especially since there is so much monkey business to attend to in the world. That is sad to me, as Bush is so wrong

about so many things. But right now we live in very primitive society and world. The L-S forum is no exception.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

You think

you\'re better than me? You think you\'re better than me?!?!?!?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I get your

point, and I admit that I wasn\'t trying to prove a point in my original post as I was just taking a shot at

people who make relationships so damn complicated. It\'s like breaking baseball down into \"You throw the ball,

you hit the ball, you catch the ball.\" No one ever says, \"You live together, you sleep together, you screw

together,\" or, \"You talk, you eat, you have sex,\" but it would be funny (to me) if they did.

Hell, I

didn\'t even read most of the thread...sorry I missed a point that I didn\'t try to grasp.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Elana has hijacked many more threads than I have.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for submissive behavior, I just like to admit that I am, in

fact, human and my jokes aren\'t funny to everyone but I find them amusing. I\'ll also be the first to admit

that I talk a lot of nonsense in an effort to see the world in a different way (think Dead Poets Society).

I\'ll think next time before I admit to being imperfect...I didn\'t know humility would \"put me at the mercy

of those who wish to exert dominance.\"

An interesting aside on dominance...I read that dogs do such things, and

the submissive one bears its neck in a sign of defeat. However, the dog just recognizes its victory, and they both

go on with their lives. If dogs can exert themselves in a...\"humane\" manner...I think humans can, too.

JustPeachy
05-25-2004, 02:10 PM
[quote
Damn, I am so turned on right now! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummm, then

maybe you won\'t mind keeping the toast light, not too much butter, and maybe wear that new ruffly apron? You look

sooooo cute in it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Pancho1188
05-25-2004, 02:12 PM
Yes, it is

just a Dennis Miller line.



...if you want to read into it, it\'s also very ironic because most of the time

I don\'t express an opinion but just write a joke about something or play \"Devil\'s Advocate\" as I\'m

known for...

Elana
05-25-2004, 02:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
[quote
Damn, I am so turned on right now!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummm, then maybe you won\'t mind keeping the toast light, not too much

butter, and maybe wear that new ruffly apron? You look sooooo cute in it!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

I like the

housecoat with the puffy sleeves. Put that on and make us a few eggs.... lightly scrambled. We will be having our

Mimosa\'s on the porch. Do hurry

Sagacious1420
05-25-2004, 05:04 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
[quote
Damn, I am so turned on right now!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummm, then maybe you won\'t mind keeping the toast light, not too much

butter, and maybe wear that new ruffly apron? You look sooooo cute in it!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Oh lordy! Yer

a whiz at fixin\' up cars, ya know how to dress yer man up right snazzy like \'n I\'ll be danged if ya

ain\'t a sweet talker too. Yer darn tootin\' I\'ll butter yer toast up right good.

Sagacious1420
05-25-2004, 05:09 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Damn, I am

so turned on right now! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummm, then

maybe you won\'t mind keeping the toast light, not too much butter, and maybe wear that new ruffly apron? You look

sooooo cute in it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

I like the housecoat with the puffy sleeves. Put that on and make us a few eggs.... lightly

scrambled. We will be having our Mimosa\'s on the porch. Do hurry

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

I don\'t know, Elana...you any good at automotive repair?

JustPeachy
05-25-2004, 08:26 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
[quote
Damn, I am so turned on right now!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummm, then maybe you won\'t mind keeping the toast light, not too much

butter, and maybe wear that new ruffly apron? You look sooooo cute in it!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Oh lordy! Yer

a whiz at fixin\' up cars, ya know how to dress yer man up right snazzy like \'n I\'ll be danged if ya

ain\'t a sweet talker too. Yer darn tootin\' I\'ll butter yer toast up right good.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

So you\'re a switch. I was wondering about you.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Sagacious1420
05-26-2004, 02:56 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Damn, I am so turned on right now!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummm, then maybe you won\'t mind keeping the toast light, not too much

butter, and maybe wear that new ruffly apron? You look sooooo cute in it!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Oh lordy! Yer

a whiz at fixin\' up cars, ya know how to dress yer man up right snazzy like \'n I\'ll be danged if ya

ain\'t a sweet talker too. Yer darn tootin\' I\'ll butter yer toast up right good.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

So you\'re a switch. I was wondering about you.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

D\'y\'all

mean a hick\'ry switch...like my granny used when she\'d drag me out behind the wood shed and tan my hide?

Carlos
05-26-2004, 05:34 AM
what have you

guys done to my original post??????????

bjf
05-26-2004, 07:05 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
what have you guys done to my original

post??????????

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

That occasionally happens around here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Elana
05-26-2004, 07:32 AM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
what have you guys done to my original post??????????

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif That occasionally

happens around here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

Whachu talking bout? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JustPeachy
05-26-2004, 12:05 PM
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr

/>
</font><blockquote><font class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font

class=\"small\">Quote:</font><hr />

Damn, I am so turned on right now!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Ummm, then maybe you won\'t mind keeping the toast light, not too

much butter, and maybe wear that new ruffly apron? You look sooooo cute in it!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Oh lordy!

Yer a whiz at fixin\' up cars, ya know how to dress yer man up right snazzy like \'n I\'ll be danged if ya

ain\'t a sweet talker too. Yer darn tootin\' I\'ll butter yer toast up right good.

<hr

/></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

So you\'re a switch. I was wondering about you.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

<hr /></blockquote><font

class=\"post\">

D\'y\'all mean a hick\'ry switch...like my granny used when she\'d drag me out

behind the wood shed and tan my hide?

<hr /></blockquote><font class=\"post\">

Nope. I meant switch

like you like to come on all alpha male, but you also dig it when a lass sticks her stiletto in your back and tells

you to like it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<font color=\"red\"> Elana, you KNOW he

kiss Peachy! </font>

SweetBrenda
05-31-2004, 09:18 PM
This was long to read... Some

good point of views.. Good post.

deb
06-02-2004, 03:58 PM
This was long to

read... Some good point of views.. Good post.It was quick reading for me and yes good points.:D

Elana
06-02-2004, 04:00 PM
It was probably quick reading for you

because you already knew everything, hussy :D

deb
06-02-2004, 04:17 PM
It was probably quick

reading for you because you already knew everything, hussy :DWell, I am WOMAN HEAR ME ROAR!!:D ;) :cool:

Elana
06-02-2004, 04:25 PM
I don't need any tips either, thank

you very much ;)

deb
06-02-2004, 04:27 PM
I don't need any tips

either, thank you very much ;);) :D :p :cool: :D Yeah, baby.