Working out

[MaxiMog]

Say a rather unattractive, not very popular with the ladies, skinny guy starts working out. After some months of training, results are very noticable. His much more muscular body is easily noticed by women, and they like it. Yet the guy still has the same looks.

What has changed in his body to cause that effect if, like what is said a lot here, looks don\'t really matter. Some people here say vision doesn\'t matter all that much, that\'s it\'s only the pheromones. As far as I know, your own body chemistry doesn\'t just change because you start working out. The quantity may be higher, but the quality...

I really don\'t like all that stuff about being predetermined to be liked or not, simply because of the pheromones. Looks DO matter! We\'re not like dogs, sniffing every tree we come at or another dog\'s but! In animals, the sense of smell is extremely important, I think in humans, vision is way more important than in animals.

If I wash my hair, dry it, and don\'t do anything with it, I look rather odd, goofy, not very attractive. That completely changes when I put my hair a bit up. Then I become way more attractive. I cannot see myself being attractive to women when my hair\'s not up (I look like a nerd then), even with pheromones. With my hair up, I AM attractive to at least some women, more with pheromones. A simple thing like hair style causing a huge difference, and still they expect me to blieve all that BS (sorry) about pheromones basically being the only factor responsible for attractiveness?

[druid]

when you work out your body chemistry DOES change. Your body fat decreses, and your muscle mass incresses. Your hormones change. You produce more hormones, especially the anabolic ones (test., GH) and your insulin sensentivty goes up. Your circulation improves.

According to some prople on here anything that will raise TEST levels will affect your natural mones.

Attraction in humans is complex. We have minds capable of thought and that must play some role. Mones play a role also, but I don\'t believe that are the sole determining factor in wheater or not someone is attractive. But I guess since we live in a determinstic soecity and people want to blame their natural pheros, or DNA or something else for their unattrativeness.

[marv14yag]

Here\'s one for you...I haven\'t had a hair cut in a while...I\'m going to get a haircut tomorrow, really cool...I just want to see how many girls are all the sudden \"now\" responsive, lol...It\'s crazy. If you have cool hair, you get a girl now? lol, It\'s wierd....

I use the mones, and I get a cool haircut...Which matters more? The hair...

When you work out, it IS going to change your chemistry into a more alpha male. I don\'t know about the pheromnes you produce, but, the body will start to store fat in different areas of the body. So, it MIGHT change them, and, for SURE MORE pheromones. But, another thing though..EVERYONE works out. At my school, not too many people have cool hair, a FEW with cool clothes (every school, I think is different) but, all the dudes work out..Even the skinny ones, seriously, there are a LOT of big people here. And, so, I think, the girls have been conditioned to not really care about it so much.

You have to do what isn\'t USED to be done. Example: if a LOT of people in your area work out, sweat a lot, than, working out will get you to par with them, but, not past them...But, if they don\'t wear as good clothes maybe, that\'s something you can do.

Or, if everyone drives cool cars, if you drive a cool car, that will put you up to par with them, but not better than them.

Girls are seriously demonic. They way they will TREAT you, if you hae a COOL CAR or not...

If I was U G L Y and asked a girl out, and she said no...20 minutes later, at my school, if i went in my car, and it had a system, and, I asked her out than, she would say yes now...


You should try using the DHEA, that will give you better pheros levels, and work out...And, I take asprin, it makes you feel better, thinner blood and all, but, I don\'t think it has much to do with anything else....

Oh, something else...Suntan...

You have to have a tan. And there is a DIFFERENCE between being born dark, v.s. light skinned, but a tan, because, a tan only effects the top layers of skin. And, noone likes a white person too. If you are black, JUST because of the skin color, you\'d get more girls. At least, where I\'m at anyway.

Ending thoughts: Working out is good, dhea will definately help you on the pheros levels (I can REALLy tell, even after I wash my hair, and body, I can STILL smell the pheromones, not a bad smell, but, they are still there, and sweat is MUCH stronger now... However, it\'s like this though too, if you haven\'t worked out before, and you work out, your body will change, but, if you work out all the time, and decide to work out more, it doesn\'t, it\'s just the difference between working out none v.s. some which really matters. Also, don\'t expect to ALL THE SUDDEN get a girl because of it, because, lots of girls go out with skinny guys, just don\'t be one of them skinny guys with a belly, noone likes that.

And, I used to think six pack meant anything...Sure, it looks nice, girls like it, but, it\'s not something that they will pick you over someone else.

Work out, sure, but, it\'s not going to make TOO big of a difference, is what I\'m saying, also, you\'re not big boned, so, you\'re not going to get too big anyway, muscle wise...

Bart

[Watcher]

Ok everyone attraction in humans is mostly biological - women however when they look at looks look at it differently to men. Men go for visual as that is the way our brains are hardwired. If women were the same way they would be men and wed all be gay, however they arent. When they talk about looks (the old comment i hear from women is \"hes easy on the eye\") what they are saying is that in fact he has a great looking \"BODY\" and that is what they want a good looking body to take them and do them over they want \"excitement\" ie money a guy with a car and good looking \"BODY\" again. Its amazing how differently (non mone wearing days just to test that theory out) since i started working out 1 1/2 years ago that i get treated. The skinny guy next to me is being ignored because the women want me but not just one woman they all do it because they are all attracted to the same biological trigger.

For those skinny guys out there complaining about not being noticed by women but without the motivation to actually change themselves and maintain it over a period of time, well you wont get laid as often. On the other hand if you want to pump up youre natural phero production take horny goatweed or tribulus supplements you will soon have the energy and testostrone to be able to start working out and the motivation.

DHEA is good as is zinc and iron and magnesium and calcuim to.

With a good looking body you still gotta work at it they wont pick you above another guy you will just get more attention from anyone and everyone and that helps self confidence plus you will be part of 10% of the population in the US and australia you arent obese fat and lazy and you wont be a drain on the healthe systems of those countries down the track and you will be fit and healthy above anything else.

[druid]

i agree with watcher. I started working out seriously with weigthts in highschool 10th grade and keep up with it for about a year (about 16 years old) and the attention I started getting from girls went up. Then I stopped for a while until about a 1.5 years ago. Since then I have been very serious about. Watching my diet and everything. And I must say the difference is tredmedous. So the moral of this story is WORK OUT. It will make you more attractive to the oppostite sex (this goes for ladies too), healthier, and builds character. Hell if anything do it to not watch so much TV. After a couple of weeks, you\'ll love it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I started working out a little a month or two ago, but if a girl is picking me because of my body or my clothes or something,....is that really the kind of girl you want?

It depends on what your objective is. If you just want to increase your confidence or want more attention from women, then sure, go for it.

But if I want a girlfriend, I\'m not going to kid myself into thinking that my body alone is all that she should be attracted to. Your personality has to back up your confidence and body.

It\'s a way of getting your foot in the door, but it doesn\'t guarantee that you\'ll stay inside.

[marv14yag]

Well, unless you are fat or something, I think, getting a girlfriend has to do with your FACE, mostly, than, personality.

You get attention for having a good body, but, where does that get you? Doesn\'t get you ANYWHERE...You can keep ON flirting, but, you\'re still not going to have a girlfriend.

Bart

[druid]

personility is the deciding factor. If you are one good looking guy with no confidence you can still get a girl but she will have to be-
1)Confident enough to make the intial approach, which most girls will not because society has programmed everyone (men and women) to think that men should approach.
2)and be attracted to you. Girls don\'t aggree on whats attractive. Some girls like big muscular guys, some girls like skinny guys, some girls like the guys who are big but built like a powerlifter.

So w/o confidence you are banking on those 2 dependices and that in my opinion is not a good idea. So you should work on--
1)confidence and pickup skills
2)having a good bod
3)cloths, and hair, etc.

In that order.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Marv, who says that nobody likes whites? where do you live, africa?

[druid]

where I live most people prefer people who have a tanned complexion, like most hispanic people. I knew a guy in highschool he was black, but dark as night and he got girls but he had to work at it. Some girls like white guys, some girls like spanish guys, etc. etc. Women are hardly uniform in their likes/dislikes. I known lots of black girls who ONLY date white guys. Bottom line there is no one trait (physical or otherwise -- accept maybe confidence) that all girls are attracted to.

[jvkohl]

There _is_ one trait that all heterosexual women are attracted to: masculinity, which is due to testosterone, which is also responsible for masculine pheromone production.

[Whitehall]

Kohl Dude!

Where were you during the heyday of feminism? For a while there wimps were in fashion - look at Alan Alda for example. Thank God that\'s past.

[marv14yag]

______So you should work on--
1)confidence and pickup skills
2)having a good bod
3)cloths, and hair, etc._______

Well, Druid, that MIGHT just be the MOST logical thing I\'ve heard yet on this board. It makes sense.

Only thing you can\'t go and change is the face. You can get plastic surgery, but, that doesn\'t even work, or, messes you up, ie, your body is in syncronism, you change one thing, something else does not look right, etc.

So, pretty much, the FACE, which, you CANNOT change, is probably the biggest factor.

Girls like skinny guys, masculine guys, etc, however, they ALL like the prettier face.

And, JVK, yes, women like TESTOSTERONE, however, I think all women are gay in the sense. You see how they act...I think they WANT a girly man, sometimes. And, I know that a lot of women DONT\' like muscular guys, or big none...I think, it\'s just, they like nol, they like it all...Or, even if a guy does not produce none, they will still \"appreciate\" the nol, or, maybe, they have on the copulins, and, get jealous...

And, out of ALL people to say that one thing in common women like masculine, but yet you put NO none in your product? Makes no sense to me.

Bart

In that order.

[xxxPantero]

dammit bart, sometimes you make sense, but half the time i don\'t even understand you! /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

[Watcher]

Understanding anyone around here is hard at times lol. Part of the forum - now women want everything all the time, even if those two types are opposite each other, women say one thing and do another or say one thing and are attracted to another.

I prefer to judge them on their actions and how they respond to different types, trust me they flirt with the hot bod ones and moslty end up with the lesser \"attractive\" ones as boyfriends this is how it works.

They will always go after the better male but remember the vast majority of women cant make the first move which means they sit back and wait, but the alpha male gets all the women coming at him which means its impossible to make the move on them all and sometimes they are just downright ugly or fat so he doesnt bother (fat ones still want prince charming however).

So the women get pissed off that they think they are showing signals of interest which the alpha is ignoring, (on purpose most of the time) or he is just distracted women are constantly trying to attract men in their own way. Now if she doesnt get an \"emotional reciprical response\" she responds to the \"lesser less attractive types who will allow her to be the passive one and they make the move\"

Thats why good looking attractive women end up with ugly men skinny men because they cant get the strong attractive ones to show an - \"emotional reciprical response because the alphas are to tied up with all the women trying to get his attention - me its very frustrating so we ignore.

If you take any social gathering if there is a good looking guy or a rich guy then the women tend to gravitate towards that guy usually with bfs getting jeoulas and they compete harder to keep female attention through one of two methods.

1.) Acting stupid and loud to keep female attention from wondering.
2.) I find this often and it gets annoying engage the alpha male to divert his attention from the betas girl - i have guys just talk [censored] to me bullshit useless bullshit just wasting my time tying up my time so i cant chase their girls.

Ok more on this later but you get the gist.

Majority of men go after good girl
Majority of women go after good boy (good = attractive)

Of course the counter force is patners or beta types of both sexes this plays itself out in every social gathering and all human behaviour.

I as a semi alpha or alpha depending on the company - take advantage of the betas and get whatever useful stuff out of them i can - access to their better looking female friends, advice, information, money, free drinks and whatever else i use my social position to full advantage and chase the women at other times when their is less competition.

All this without saying a word and just doing it as with my full knowledge of human behaviour crowd behaviour social interactions NLP accelearted learning techniques and pheormones and the role they play am able to screw with as many idiotic directionless sexually motivated types who have no awareness other than themselves and do it to the max.

Now this is not wrong just because its able to be done. And no one objects because they can stay in their little own patterns without any trouble. They fall over themselves to use me and i use them 10 times more without them realising.

Ok so this is paragraphed shoulnt be that hard to understand now.

[druid]

Watcher you have a lot to say and I respect you. Most people just talk a lot but say nothing. You talk a lot and say even more. But some of your posts are just incorrent (however it is spelled). Please I implore you use punction -- a comma here, a period there to break up one of your famous run on sentences goes a long way towards clarfying what you are trying to communicate. Is english your first lanuage?

[Watcher]

Sorry druid i get carried away, really its just that it all comes out at once.

Ok im hoping most people can get the gist of that last post i put up - probably one of those really insightful, call it as it is in reality things.

Well glad i have such an impact around here.

[druid]

it happens to me sometimes also. Its like your mind spews forth a million things but hands can operate that fast so can\'t type or write them down that fast.

PS-Have you read \"Frongs into Princes\" by bandler and grinder? It is an old NLP book from the late 70\'s. It is the first book on NLP I have read (actually I am currently reading it) and I am completly fascinated by it. Especially the stuff about rapport.

[Watcher]

Yeah ive read frogs into princes and much much more, its applicable to many things and very fascinating and insightful add into that pheormonal influences and it will give you a big advantage in life.

Back to the working out thread another bit of advice if you want to work longer and harder without getting tired eat plenty of carbs and also take immune booster tablets like Vitamin C and echinaccea also. Ginger helps.

[upsidedown]

Well, I\'m not one to criticize anybody\'s typing and punctuation. And I\'m not trying to start any fights. I especially appreciate your posts Watcher, and respect your knowledge. But, since the subject was brought up, I\'ll just say this once for the benefit of all the forum members.

But, from my standpoint, if a person writes a very long post with horrible punctuation, then I just tend not to read the post. It just becomes too much of a tedious chore, and I just can\'t do it after a few sentences and skip it.

I can\'t speak for everybody, and most people may struggle their way through long tedious posts. But, if many people are like me, then a lot of poorly written long posts are just simply not being read. So, I think if a person wants their point of view to be heard, it\'s to their benefit to make some effort to write and punctuate properly.

Thanks..

[druid]

well I am a low carb dieter (most of the time) and if you are sensitive to carbs like me watch out, you could get fat easy. Timing with carbs is crucial. good times are first thing in the morning, and after workout. DO cardio AFTER weights, because you will burn more fat in a carb depleted state. Another thing I do is cycle my diet. for 5 days I do low carb then a high carb day. That is very anabolic. But if you are SKINNY then you probably have the genetics to tolerate a lot of carbs, and will probably need more to pack on mass.

[Watcher]

My thinking is, if you can boost Test levels ie horny goatweed and tribulus supplements.

Then you can increase protein supplements for long term muscle gain and carbs to keep up the energy levels.

WATER IS THE MOST IMPORTANT AND IF YOU CAN FIND A COOL ENVIRONMENT TO DO IT IN THEN USE ANY WEIGHTS SESSION IN A COOLER TEMPERATURE.

[jvkohl]

Whitehall wrote :For a while there wimps were in fashion - look at Alan Alda for example.\"

I never perceived him as a wimp; reserved masculinity would be more like it. In any case,
the fad didn\'t last long. Biologically, it would be a dead end.

I reiterate: Heterosexual women prefer masculinity.

Re others comments: I didn\'t say there aren\'t degrees of masculinity,
and didn\'t say that all women choose masculinity over wealth.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My mother used to tell me, \"Better an old man\'s darling than a young man\'s slave.\" (wish I\'d listened) The fact that a woman marries money or only dates money does not in any way mean she prefers wealth to masculinity. It just means she wants to live well. What you don\'t see is what her lover looks like. Husband may have the cash, but the pool boy\'s got the pecs... /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"Heterosexual women prefer masculinity\"

Maybe but the line between hetero-bi-lesbi is a shady line. Lots of women will at least try sex with another woman if given the chance, even if they are officially hetero. Does that make them bi ? No. It puts them in the shady zone in between.

Maybe you\'r right tho, I\'m tall but skinny and have a tendency to attract women who have at least tendencies toward bi-sexuality. I consider myself lucky.

[Whitehall]

My observation is that there is continuum in gender expression ranging from extreme masculinity to extreme femininity. Males and females tend to pair off based on a rough equality of degree of expression of gender.

For example, really feminine women seek extremely masculine men. Less masculine with less feminine.

One could argue that all women have to settle for the less masculinity than they desire but in fact, the extremes present problems in civilized society and are often perceived as repungant.

I would supposed that the \"Alan Alda\" effect is a dynamic one - for a while women were taught to be more masculine in behavior and femininity was devalued by feminist leaders. As women\'s femininity faded so did their appreciation of masculinity hence the ascendency of Alan Alda. My vision of the guy is as whining supplicant to females. He was certainly no John Wayne or even Joe Friday.

Men\'s response to feminism was basically, who needs this bunch of dykes?! I know I, for one, avoided socially the kind of woman who no longer appreciated her own femininity - I think most of my male cohort did the same. Women gradually saw the errors and moved to a more natural and balanced gender role in large.

The overall result was a better and broader appreciation of the range of gender expression and more tolerance for those not the ideal embodiment of gender extremes.

[Watcher]

In the overall evolution of things pheormones synthetics have the tendancy to screw things up if used on a large society scale for this reason i would say they will take forever to take off and will never be large scale.

Although lucky for us that research and development continues so we gain the benefits. The overall balancing of genders continues and is just an continuum of the evolution constantly taking place ie aggression in society is being reduced probably due to the fact that feminine women go for musculine men so that over time those offspring will be calmer in effect we are all moving towards evolving to a more feminine type of being, also incorparating the higher intelligence evolution that comes with the male species. Less emotion but less logic to.

Poses interesting questions - that said women still prefer a good body over a less developed male. Those are the attractive women anyway who dont end up marrying into money.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"also incorparating the higher intelligence evolution that comes with the male species. Less emotion but less logic to.\"

Watcher. Even the most retarded female is more intelligent than you ! Logic dictates that you put down women because of an inferiority complex(tiny manhood?).

[marv14yag]

I agree, Watcher, and, JVK has not yet responded on this, because, what he has said does not coincide it...

I do agree though.

And, I like the runonn posts....Maybe I\'m just DILUSIONAL, but, I have a BUNCH of good stuff to say, but, I do not say it clearly, and, many people just don\'t read, or, listen to whta I say, or do, and dismiss it, for the fact of; if he can not say \"such and such\" right, he must not have a valid opinion because his intelligence level is very low.

So, anyway, you say, the girl goes for the alpha male, however, the alpha male does not get into her, so, she than TAKES initiative with the LESS alpha male correct?

So, I have a question, what do people like me do, people who are not COMPLETELY alpha male, but, also not the skinny guy that gets the girl after she can\'t ge the alpha guy? Am I in a bad position? Do I need to switch to skinny and girls feel sorry for me, and or big, takes nothing from noone in order to get a girl?

What do I do?

And, in reposnse to laters posts, I think that, the way society has done, and everything, girls just look ELSEWHER ie, pheros have been WRONG due to the way they kepe get conditioned this way and that....Now, it\'s how much a guy TRYS, this would explain why it is SO important on what clothes, hiar, teeth, work you have put into them. And personally, I ALSO think a girl that has really hot clothes on, hair done really hot, etc, is more attractive also, even if it is the same girl I would not be previously attracted to with the same intensity.

Bart

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To elaborate on druid\'s post, cardio after weights is not always the best thing for everybody. It can depend on body structure and metabolism. It also depends on what type of look you\'re going for. Any body builder knows that cardio burns up muscle mass as well as fat (especially before you hit your target heart rate) so if you\'re going for a body builder physique I would cycle cardio and weight lifting every other day with 1 off day per week. If you want a brad pitt cut-up but not all juiced up looking, then cardio after weight training is your best bet. I\'m currently taking advantage of the best of both worlds by cutting and bulking at the same time. I\'m taking an ephedrine/caffeine/chromium picolinate stack to burn fat faster and cycling creatine to prevent loss of lean muscle during cardio. I\'ve been lazy about the protein though. I\'ve got 2 bottles of whey sitting in the cupboard but have been too lazy to use em post workout (even though I know I should.) You pick a routine like one of these and stay dedicated and you should notice significant results within 2 weeks tops. Do before and after pictures they really help to keep you motivated. Being dedicated is tough. As long as you eat balanced meals you should be alright. I try to eat junk food no more then once a week but I don\'t drink soda anymore period. Soda is bad. I also stopped drinking alcohol due to estrogen conversion.

[druid]

well to tell you the truth I never do that much cardio for that very reason. usually 10-15 mins of fast walking on a steep incline. Cardio can also be rough on your knees and ankles. When I want to shed fat I play with the diet and keep the weight lifting. Weight lifting is far superior exercise.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Weight lifting done correctly and properly is way superior to any walking exercise i have done, well for muscle gain it is by far the best.
In reference to other posts - well carbs are good and please keep things on topic, the differing into women behaviour is a bit hard to follow - things get confusing.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Gotta agree with that comment at no point should anyone put women down. They are intelligent far more than some of the comments on ths forum.

\"Logic dictates that you put down women because of an inferiority complex(tiny manhood?)

Logic also dictates that some comments should be refined a little to avoid flaming a forum up. But i support you mostly speaknoevil, please give us more of youre wisdom - men should respect women more as without them we have no comfort and emotional support and also the sex is always great.

[CptKipling]

Read up on Neg. hits, thats what Watcher is talking about.

Don\'t be so quick to admonish.