Do ugly people produce faulty pheromones?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Just wondering, if someone is ugly or not attractive do they produce faulty pheromones that repel people? Or do they produce a different type of pheromone? Or just less normal pheros?

[jvkohl]

Great question. Women have been shown to prefer the scent of symmetrical men and symmetry is associated with attractive features, as well as with hormone levels during development. I\'ve suggested several times that maintaining height to weight proportions that are typically normal, also promotes a good pheromone signature--like tanning, and body building--anything that increases testosterone in men; or estrogen in women (men prefer the scent of women who are ovulating=higher estrogen levels. Beyond that, the link to beauty (or not) is likely to be a matter of personal preference developed with exposure to pheromones of many different types of people.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That is an interesting question, although I wonder if it\'s also somehow linked with brain chemistry as well as actual physicality.

I\'ve met many an average or unattractive guy with absolutely magnetic, charming personalities who are always involved with very beautiful intelligent women. In sharp contrast, I\'ve also met very attractive people who are very awkward and struggle relentlessly to meet anyone.

I know we\'re basically talking more about a pheromone signature\'s ability to create instant intrigue and attraction but there might be some strange connection to the way one views themselves. I don\'t want to run off topic but I saw something quite a while ago about how a persons perception of themselves extends deeply into a sense of their own physique. Even to the degree that an amputee will still have a complete consciousness and awareness of his whole self or being, though a part of him is now missing. So the impression of who you are can be difficult to change regardless of how you reshape yourself as exemplified by huge body builders who can\'t stop seeing themselves as skinny no matter how much gains they may make, or the anorexic girl who continues to see herself as excessively overweight. It\'s possible that a very good looking person may have a slight measure of that same negative psychosis as well as an unattractive person having the positive version.

I guess what I\'m poorly attempting to communicate with this post is whether or not a strong positive mental imagine of yourself can attribute to stronger pheromone levels in some way. Similarly, can a poor self image adversely effect your signature output in unfavorable ways.

I\'m convinced age, health, and muscularity with respect to your anabolic state, can all have a substantial impact on personal pheromone levels, but I was unaware that tanning additionally promotes a natural increase.

For the record whenever my ex was in that time of the month... she drove me crazy! I mean that in a positive way not the usual personality changes normally associated during that week. I would literally lose my mind around her which always stuck me as odd back then because I was generally a very self controlled person.

[MaxiMog]

Same thing I\'d like to mention here. It may be possble, but I still have a hard time believing that being rich affects your pheromone signature in any way. It\'s another part of of the abstract matter that is attraction.

Why do people continue to say that pheros open the doors, but that you\'re the one that have to walk through it (sounds like the matrix); that the moment you got a woman\'s attention, that it\'s up to you and your personality. If I have to believe these posts, it\'s just BS what I\'ve been told. If what some people seem to claim here (it\'s basically your phero signature only that decides how attractive you are) then I really wonder what I\'m doing here. I don\'t come here only for information about mones: from time to time , we have threads about how to improve yourself physically, mentally etc. and that\'s what keeps me here.

[koolking1]

I was in bed with my girlfriend and another woman. I was not at all attracted to this other woman until the thought struck me - geez, she has a great tan. My then low libido then increased substantially.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey... thats all I\'m saying /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[EXIT63]

......(it\'s basically your phero signature only that decides how attractive you are)...

I don\'t buy it. I can spot a hot girl in a bikini from 300 yards and know that I\'m attracted to her.

[CptKipling]

No not faulty.

Different, yes.

As far as I know, pheromones are a way of detecting the health of an individual and the quality of their genes. Also, your personal sig. will be "telling" other people about the compatibility of your immune systems.

An ugly person would just be giving out a different sig., whether that be in quantity (such as -none, for confidence and the alpha-esque image), quality (to represent ratios and symmetry), and certain unique identifiers (representing immune system).

Commercial pheromnones are just across the board attractants, in the league of -none for alpha-ness. You can natuarally increase these pheromones on your own (though not in huge quantities), so these are the logical and easy ones to suppliment.

One day we might be able to create the "perfect sig.", but only as far as ratios, symmetry, and -none type pheros are concerned. It would be much harder to create the sig. for the best immune system, as this depends hugely on the individual, and would require some kind of real time sampling/replication device.

"Crude classifications and fake generalisations are the curse of organised life" H.G Wells

Disclamer: Most of this is just a SWAG (thanks Whitehall!)

[MaxiMog]

Well that\'s my whole point: people sometimes are attracted to people they don\'t even know. A hot model for example: it\'s not because you haven\'t met her that you cannot feel attracted to her. Any pheros? No! If you take a picture of an ugly bird wearing pheros, and they send you the picture, will you feel attracted to her? No!

There\'s more to it than just pheromones! THAT is my point!

(it\'s basically your phero signature only that decides how attractive you are) That\'s how some people think it is.

If a person has a completely symmetrical body, which is very attractive to women, does that mean he produces more or better pheros? Perhaps, but the person in the picture will be found about just as good-looking as the real-life guy should you meet him in person. What about the 0.7 waist-hip thing with women? These women are more attractive to men, but not just because of the pheros they produce. Our eyes tell our brains that they see a beautiful woman.

[jvkohl]

So many additional factors have been added to the complexity of this thread that I am unable to address them individually. Overall, though we know that the scent of fear in women can be detected by other women, so we can expect they also can detect fear scent in men. A dominant male would produce less fear scent when challenged by a subordinate than vice versa--so it seems obvious that the alpha male would produce more attractive pheromones. Also, as I think I mentioned, testosterone levels are important. Stress increases cortisol production and basically drops testosterone. Perhaps a rich man is less stressed by his environment, and therefore produces
more appealing pheromones. No studies on this of course. With regard to the importance of visual input I have stressed that there is no direct biological connection between vision and hormones, so it is hard for others to claim that visual input is more important to physical attraction--though this is generally accepted. My paper in Neuroendocrinology Letters addresses this somewhat, though it is technical. And regarding blind people, there
is some literature that says they are better at assessing mood in people, just by their odor.

[CptKipling]

I think what really confuses people is the point that because it is not a situation where you can smell a person, your attraction/arrousel could not be pheromone induced. However, we are conditioned everysday by things we say, do, hear...and smell! If you smell someone that is attractive, you will remember what that person looks like, and then later make the connection between the visual imput and the memory of the olfatory input, basically cutting smell out of the loop. But, there are also problems with this, how does an infant know what an attractive person looks like? One theory I have is that they learn through society, those who are commonly accepted as attracted are remembered and then made reference to. How is a 12y/o boy arroused though? Assuming he has had no sexual contact.

[jvkohl]

A boy\'s first erotic experience is while nursing at his mother\'s side (bottle fed) or breast. He responds, as when he is first born, with an LH and testosterone surge (the one at birth helps rewire his brain in a more masculine direction). The testosterone surge frequently is linked to an erection (yes, in a newborn--mom\'s know this, even if dad\'s don\'t). The infant\'s visual response is conditioned to his olfactory/hormonal response. Later in life, when the adrenal glands initiate puberty, he begins to exhibit a preference for large breasted women. Why, because every breast is large for an infant male--and his body remembers the olfactory conditioning of the hormone response consciouslsy associated with visual input--but developed in accord with all of mammalian biology; the response is based on pheromones. It is troublesome when people talk about first sexual experiences, love at first sight, lust from across a crowded room, because they\'re thinking about what\'s happening at the time--not about the unconscious affect of pheromones across a lifetime of experience. Much of this is reviewed in my Neuroendocrinology Letters article.

[Macmers]

WOW!!! Interesting......

\"When all men think alike, no one thinks very much.\"
-Walter Lippmann

[jvkohl]

Forgot to mention the rather obvious fact that infant females do not respond to their mother\'s pheromones with an LH and testosterone surge--because mom\'s pheromones are from someone of the same sex. So what about homosexuality, you (or someone else will ask)? It\'s due to incomplete sexual differentiation of the olfactory system, which allows a response to natural male body odor to be interpreted more like it was from the opposite sex. Also, in the Neuroendocrinology Letters article, I mentioned in the final paragraph that an explanation for homosexuality was forthcoming. It was published in the June and October issues of Across Species Comparisons in Psychopathology, which is not widely available. I will make arrangements with the editor when he returns from his travels (next month) to distribute reprints of this highly technical neuroscientific article. In the meantime, ask yourself or some other researcher to explain homosexual attraction on the basis of visual input. What makes a good looking guy--good looking to another guy? Then look for animal models of homosexuality--they\'re all based on olfactory input. Makes me wonder why only one other researcher that I know about, has published anything on this connection. Congratulations to D. Oliva, who noted this connection in the August issue of Neuroendocrinology Letters--just released on Oct 2. Of course, he was promptly taken to task by non-other than B. Fink, one of the co-authors on my NEL paper (from a decidedly biased basis in evolutionary psychology). There\'s an academic battle brewing here that I will most assuredly win--but whether or not I\'ll get published in a peer-reviewed journal is another story. Perhaps some of you will understand why I can be perceived by other researchers as a \"loose cannon.\"

[CptKipling]

Your post prompted me to think; I dont find myself prefering bigger breasts, and if I remember (not from the time of course!) I wasn't breast fed. I'm definatly strait, but it is possible that males who were not breast fed are more likely to be gay?

[koolking1]

I was wondering the same thing, having been bottle-fed often by a babysitter instead of my Mom. I also prefer small-breasted women and have little or no homosexual inclinations.

[MOBLEYC57]

Come on!! There are no ugly, or unattractive people!!! You need to look a little harder, and a little closer. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[a.k.a.]

If olfaction wasn’t primary I wouldn’t be getting laid.

[BassMan]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

If olfaction wasn’t primary I wouldn’t be getting laid.

<hr></blockquote> /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Me, too. Bassman ain\'t pretty...

[marv14yag]

Uh, like I said...

I think they have more to matter if that\'s what the girl WANTS at the time, if you could f*ck her without going out with her...But, really, it\'s going to make you more of a target than the next guy, v.s. anything else, because, if you\'re good enough looking, and, you are in a club, you could get laid, mones willl make you stand out more though.

And, I am not acting like they DON\'T work, but rather...In a different way...When I was USING the mones, and, the amounts of concentrations were good to where I WAS getting results, but, not the results I want...

I mean, before, everyone either HATED me, or LIKED me...I was SEEN, EVERYONE talked to me, either they hated me, liked me a lot, wanted to talk to me for my money..Now, without them, I don\'t talk to as many people..But, as far as a girl LIKEING me more DEFINATELY NOT! Pheromones did NOTHING in that aspect...I think, if a girl is horny, and you have on mones, it will make you stand out...Or, even if, she\'s not looking for a relationship, as long as you aren\'t UGLY, the moens will make her pick you instaed of the other guy...

Also, I DO NOT BELIEVE that mones are the only way, via, pheromonal conditioning...

And, like XVS or what the name is...I don\'t think mones are more than 50% to 60% and, it matters MORE what the person is LOOKING FOR...All that.

Bart

[Whitehall]

Bart,

You\'re babbling. And in a self-absorbed way. Please edit yourself in the future to postings that contribute to the discussion at hand.

[marv14yag]

Ok dude, whatever...All I did was explain the three things I believe that have to do with sex, and, how pheromones have more to do with the having the sex than the going OUT with anyone...Great to pick up a horny girl anyway....

Whatever...

You know, there\'s people on here that say the dumbest of things...If you don\'t like what I write, just ignore it.

Bart

[franki]

\"You know, there\'s people on here that say the dumbest of things...\"

That´s very insightful ................. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[bjf]

bump_________________

[Gegogi]

Attraction is a complex issue

involving lifestyle, appearance, personality, personal chemistry, et al. I don't stand out much in a club or party.

Most women look right through me even when I'm trying hard (well dress, toned, good smelling, etc.). However, as a

performing musician I get constant "hits," and that certainly has nothing to do with my 'mone signature. However,

the attention I get because of my performances gets them in my personal space and they notice other things they find

attractive. Hopefully, a little TE and EW gives me a slight edge, but something is working...

[Holmes]

Being "in your element"

automatically makes you more attractive.


Just wondering, if someone is ugly or not attractive do they

produce faulty pheromones that repel people? Or do they produce a different type of pheromone? Or just less normal

pheros?

An interesting question (which I totally missed the first time around).

I just read

about some study wherein it was determined that highly attractive women actually emit certain special pheromones

that other women do not.

[luckyhorse]

bed with 2 women you

stud!!!!! i got to try that someday but first i have ti find 2 that will agree to it lol!:wub:

[bjf]

Being "in your element"

automatically makes you more attractive.



An interesting question (which I totally missed the first

time around).

I just read about some study wherein it was determined that highly attractive women actually

emit certain special pheromones that other women do not.

Holmes, that is fascinating. Can you

provide a link or give me some keywords from the title or text that I could use to try and search for it?

[eric_pelletier_tw]

it's called the "babe"

'mones :P hehe

[eric_pelletier_tw]

there is two subkind the

leftytitymakesmeornymone & the rightytitymakesmeornymone
:) joking


on another note:i dunno if ugly pple

makes difrent mones than cute one but i think that whatever mones you trow out will be bias if you dont accept

yourself &/or if your insecure & stuff like that: another scent player ? --> the i feelbadmone & the

ifeellikeastudmone ??

[Pancho1188]

Yes. Unattractive people have

'faulty' -mones. What makes them faulty? They're not compatible with yours. If they were, you'd find them

more attractive.

Yes, you could tell a 'beautiful' woman in a picture. From basic instinct, a man will think

about having sex with women he finds beautiful. However, I've seen pictures of people I thought were attractive

and then have my entire perception change when I meet them. You couldn't pay me to get close to them...they just

rub me the wrong way. Therefore, what you find 'unattractive' is probably just someone not compatible with you in

that way.

I think most people confuse beauty and attraction. For example, there are so many women

in the world that I find beautiful but I would never sleep with them. Beauty does not equal

attraction, and therefore you could say that compatible -mones are another factor in determining attractiveness.



Yes, I would argue that many people you find unattractive have incompatible -mones.






Random

thoughts I had after reading this thread:

People forget that aesthetics change over time. I remember reading in

my intro to Sociology class about the basics of different societies' views of attraction. They put a woman

straight out of a US fashion magazine (or a tooth-whitening ad...she had very white teeth) up against this woman

from Africa (if I remember correctly) with black teeth (not sure how they became black). They then ask you which

one was more attractive. Now, I'm an American, so naturally I don't even think twice when I look to the left.

That little experiment, however, made me realize that nothing is definite.

In the recent past, I've been

infatuated with two girls (not at the same time ;) one many months after the other). Neither of them I would

consider to be appearing on the cover of Cosmo anytime soon...but they are beautiful to me. As a man of strict

logic thinking there are hard and fast rules to the world...well, this hit me pretty hard. I've pondered this.

The media pushes the beauty card pretty hard...and the sex card even more. Put some aesthetically pleasing people

on a screen and in come customers, viewers, etc. to purchase/view your product. That's not what it's about,

though...there is something more to it than that.

When I'm around these girls, I feel different than when with

other people. It's more than just visual. If so, I'd try to find the most visually attractive person in the

world and try to convince them to marry me.

I had a psychology class that taught one theory along the lines of

the movie Beautiful Girls, which is a great movie on the subject that I still need to see. One thought on

the subject was that men and women have unreachable expectations (naturally, nobody's perfect, so an ugly shmoe

like myself (exaggeration to make point) isn't about to try to get a 10), have a conflict with their ideal and

their current prospects, overcome their conflict, and settle for what they have. I think this is incorrect because

of how it's phrased.

I don't think you have to 'settle'. If you don't think the person you're with in a

serious relationship is the one you should be with, then what the hell are you doing with them, anyway? I think

that -mones, personality, and looks all play a part.

As I try to bring this long post together, I would say

this:

1. I, like everyone else subjected to today's view of beauty, have certain views on what is

beautiful.
2. That standard, however, is not set in stone. For example, you used to be worth your weight and gold,

and the more overweight you were meant you were prosperous and desirable. Apparently, there are a lot of poor,

undesirable people in the fashion world...oh, wait...the standard of attractiveness is different now.
3. -mones

play an important role. As I said, there's more to it than just straight attractiveness. This is going to sound a

little off, but I've seen pictures and from a cold-hearted, insensitive standpoint thought, "What do I see in this

person?" However, when I am put into a room with them, my heart falls apart and I completely succumb to whatever

mystifying power they have over me. Not only that, but they become the most attractive people I've ever seen and I

just want to be with them. Such are the other forces of attraction at play.
4. Attraction isn't what you see on

TV. I've realized that my personal bewilderment between what I always thought was supposed to make me crazy and

what actually does drive me crazy with passion just goes to show you that the rules differ for everyone. I don't

think you have an ideal and 'settle' like in the example I displayed, but you instead have a discrepency between

what society is telling you and what you actually want. I don't want the most beautiful woman in the world. I

want the most beautiful woman in the world to me...

[Holmes]

I want Leona Helmsley.