Phero Conversions (JVK contribution is welcome!) [Archive]

DrSmellThis

10-04-2002, 11:55 AM

I suspect there is progress to be made if we can learn to get a grip on, and control the different phero conversions -- most prominently -nol to -none -- that may be happening on our body. Concepts such as \"parent, child, sister, and cousin pheromones\" might become needed. Of course, JVKohl cited -nol conversion as a reason for omitting -none entirely from his SOE formula. Is there a middle path?

The most basic idea, which is not new, is to start off with more -nol, knowing that over time you\'ll have less -nol and more -none; and shooting for some average desirable level -- or even a time effect. By time effect I mean that socializing happens before seduction as -nol happens before converted -none. This also suggests a strategy of varying application points according to how much/what kind of bacteria, fatty acids, salts, and enzymes we want to expose the pheros to -- perhaps shooting for some heavy microorganism exposure as well as protected application points, such as clothes or the surface of the hair. Perhaps we could prevent OD by experimenting with such combinations, and even create a broader spectrum of pheromones through modulating the natural conversion processes.

All of this suggests some possible reasons why mixes such as \"DD lite\" have grown in popularity of late.

Some salient issues for discussion:

* Are pheros activated by bacteria, or bio-psychologically effective as is?

*None that converts from -nol smells more urinous to me than either the NPA or Stone -none. Does anyone else have this experience? How \'bout compared to PI?

*I suspect there are other conversions happening, but I could be wrong. Does -nol convert to other things? Does -none? For instance, I sometimes get a smelly feet/homeless person scent after a while, and I have speculated that might be a conversion from -none. When I go phero heavy in my pits, I smell new things -- not all of it pleasant. My pits never stank before, and I\'ve never needed to wear deodorant.

* DHEA starts off as predominantly -rone in the body, as JVK noted; but also is convered to all the andro-mones, via testosterone, if I have it correct. This suggests the question of whether -rone converts on the skin to other things.

*What have people noticed different about \"next day without having showered\" -mones? I might be different here, because I tend to like the mone smell the next day without showering if I am otherwise clean and wore essential oils the previous day to inhibit bacterial growth. I typically then add less on top of it when I reapply the next day. I then fancy I might have a broader spectrum of active -mones on my skin.
* This is just speculation, but I have wondered whether NPA has some standard pherochemical \"close cousins\" in it, that might result anyway from skin conversion of -nol, -none, or A1. Of course I understand if no one wants to speak about this one.

*Might the over-use of anti-bacterial soaps and deodorants reduce the potential number of active pheromones on our bodies?

*Might supplementation with certain probiotics (lactobacilli, etc) and fatty acids (e.g. butyric acid, evening primrose, flax?) assist in such conversion processes, if desirable?

* If -nol is the only one that converts, should we apply more nol throughout the day?

* Why is there so little publically available information on the various \"parent\" pheromones their offspring resulting from conversion, and their concentrations?

I know this is a heavy thread on which knowledge is limited, but I did want to call for discussion anyway. Mr. Kohl\'s contributions would be especially appreciated here, to keep us out of blind alleys. I\'d also like to hear from anyone else. Speculation is fine, as we can always experiment later.

[Thanks, Maxi, for the editorial help below! I made the change.]

MaxiMog

10-04-2002, 11:59 AM

I haven\'t read all of it yet, but it should be \"-nol to -none\" in the beginning. I don\'t want to sound like a know-it-all, but I think some people have yet to hear about conversions, and that\'s why the information should be correct.

Once again, dont be offended or so by this. Glad to have a topic on this!

Watcher

10-04-2002, 12:28 PM

Nol does in fact break down into many things. Rone however is one of the granddaddys so to speak as it breaks down into nol and none.
There are thousands of compounds in huamn sweat therefore other phero types must exists. James kohl can help but with NPA utilising two different types and of course erox with realm having 20-30 patents and dr dodd having used 30 types in datemate who knows but i guess 50 relating directly to pheromones would be a good place to start.

http://www.anitadoth.myby.co.uk/anita%20doth_2%20u%20downloads.htm (\"http://www.anitadoth.myby.co.uk/anita%20doth_2%20u%20downloads.htm\")

jvkohl

10-04-2002, 03:41 PM

Wish I could contribute more to this, but my steroid hormone biochemistry background leaves much to be desired. Watcher has a good handle on things. Still a lot of factors to consider, overall. The metabolism of added pheromones by skin bacteria shouldn\'t present any immediate problem if one starts off clean. With or without the additional pheromones, it still takes a while for bacteria to break things down into nasty smelling compounds. -nol metabolizes to -none, but I haven\'t seen info that -rone metabolized to -none, which makes -rone safe--for now. And -rone comes from a somewhat different testosterone affected chemical conversion also (though I don\'t know much about C-17 steroids versus C-19 steroids. My approach was to see how people responded to -rone, by itself. Combining with -nol was mostly due to Bruce\'s input, though leaving out the -none was my dictate. Then, in all honesty, it\'s up to the perfumer, who did a great job giving Bruce and I samples of likely good combinations. Wish I could claim credit for more exact science, but that\'s not the case. Sometimes, after all is said and done, you just have to get lucky.

DrSmellThis

10-04-2002, 10:59 PM

So here we are! Still, I bet these practical questions have interesting and substantive answers. Someone might be lurking that can shed some light...

Thanks JVK and watcher.

DrSmellThis

10-05-2002, 02:41 PM

bump.

CptKipling

10-05-2002, 02:54 PM

Have not really got much to offer, apart from to say that when SOE goes rancid, it goes REALLY rancid. Worse that NPA. AE does the same thing actually.

**DONOTDELETE**

10-05-2002, 06:09 PM

Yeah, I can\'t wear SOE, because it just goes rancid on me. It might be the -rone, or -rone conversion to something.

DrSmellThis

10-06-2002, 05:33 AM

yes...interesting.

unknown conversions?

Bruce

10-06-2002, 05:58 AM

I\'ve always been under the impression that it was the RONE that converted to NONE, not NOL. I first noticed it with a sample of pure RONE. I wouldn\'t call it \"rancid\", but I have noticed what I call a \"ripening\" of both SOE and AE as the fragrance fades. Back before there was an SOE and I often used AE, it didn\'t occur to me that there was a chemical conversion going on at all. I just thought the AE fragrance was fading letting the NONE smell ermerge. Then after my experience of the relatively odorless RONE getting very musky when exposed to the elements (heat? bacteria? air?); becoming similar in smell to NONE, I knew something was up. As I remember, even before experimenting with the first samples of SOE, I was expecting this RONE-NONE conversion to occur, and it does seem to transform after application.

I guess the next big question is: have users of PI/women noticed this NONE-type muskiness developing after application? OR any home made chem-set preperations containing NOL only???

Bruce

DrSmellThis

10-06-2002, 06:33 AM

Very thoughtful, Mr. phero guru. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

So I agree, Bruce, that the next logical step is to experiment with single chem set -mones and notice time effects.

So my next purchase is a large bottle of -nol, in case you\'re waiting for that perfect time to run a special on it.../ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Perhaps an advantage of using mones that are further down the conversion chain (near the bottom of the phero family tree), is that you have more control over which mones you\'ll end up with. For instance, perhaps none and the two anonymous mones in NPA are more robust to skin bacteria, and can convert to relatively fewer things.

**DONOTDELETE**

10-06-2002, 07:29 AM

It happens to me with PI/w -- also Sophie mentioned that it becomes \"musky\" after awhile -- it happens to me with SOE, definitely, every time I put it on. Which is why I\'ve been asking for an unscented SOE. I thought the fragrance was turning on me.

a.k.a.

10-06-2002, 08:45 AM

I wear SOE to work a lot. Now I’m convinced that the conversion is somehow effected by my moods. I don’t get the rancid smell unless I’m stressed or frustrated. I usually get a nice sort of (almost sweet) muskiness.

I don’t think it has to do with how much I perspire because the AC in my office had gone out for a couple of days and all I observed was a natural perspiration smell.

So I’m thinking it might have to do with how many “stress and anger pheromones” (if there is such a thing) I produce during the day.

**DONOTDELETE**

10-06-2002, 10:34 AM

It\'s possible it reacts differently on women. But if your theory is correct and it turns because of bad vibes, I should just throw mine out...lol

DrSmellThis

10-06-2002, 01:09 PM

Cool... we\'re getting somewhere.

OK, you PI and RM users, what have you noticed with pure -none? Does the smell change with time, or not? If so, how?

Bruce, it\'s interesting to look at the first chem set threads, in which early users were puzzled, thinking the rone must be \"double strength,\" as it got stronger and lingered relatively more with time. Perhaps this was just a conversion effect. And JVK, when you were experimenting with -rone, did you notice the smell evolving?

So perhaps from now on we should view phero mixing and application as setting in motion a dynamic process, rather than a static, \"I have x amounts of a, b, c\" view.

The probiotics angle is interesting for it\'s potential to steer conversion of all the mones in a \"pleasant\" direction.

Why? Because probiotic supplements are healthy bacteria. Strains such as lactobacillus acidophilus, bifidus bifida, b. breve are present in the birth canal and in mother\'s milk, so they end up being prevalent on a baby\'s skin as well. And guess what smell women can\'t resist? Perhaps it\'s not the baby powder per se, but is rather the pheromones they associate by olfactory memory to the powder.

The sugar FOS also has potential, as it is most appealing as food to healthier strains, and might be simpler to apply topically. In any case, either could be dissolved in water (just empty the capsules) and used in an atomizer. The FOS would survive an alcohol base, on the other hand, and could be added to edge, etc.

And I hate to say it, but all this might revive the Athena idea of DHEA, but I won\'t go down that controversial path more here.

And it also might suggest the wisdom of applying essential oils first(e.g., patchoili), to prepare the skin, since they tend to inhibit nasty epidermal microorganism proliferation. (Why can\'t this DrSmell use normal words? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif)

a.k.a.

10-06-2002, 04:31 PM

The None smell diminishes over time.

jvkohl

10-06-2002, 09:11 PM

I experimented with -rone only 1mg/ml; have had several different containers for more than a year and have had no conversion (that I\'m aware of). Trouble is, I can\'t smell -rone, and can only smell -none when it is many times above the threshold of most others. So, on the one hand, I\'m not the best judge--on the other, I don\'t think that -rone is likely to convert to -none, but know that -nol does.

**DONOTDELETE**

10-06-2002, 09:14 PM

So what does that conversion mean? You put one thing on and in a couple of hours, you\'re really wearing something else. What behaviors should change when your \'mones morph?

Seems to me I\'ve heard that to reapply is the way to counteract the effect, so it\'s fresh again and has not had time to convert....So over an 8 hour period, I wonder how many times you would have to freshen it.

CptKipling

10-07-2002, 02:59 AM

With RM I dont notice any change, but then the cover scent seems slightly over the top so if there was a change I doubt if I would notice anyway.

Going back to the advice I gave FTR RE: SOE going rancid, the conversion is diminished and almost none existant when applied to \"softer\" skin, i.e not hairy (and so less sweaty), such as inner forearms.

DrSmellThis

10-07-2002, 03:30 AM

In general I\'ve noticed conversion effects are less pleasant in the pits, and more pleasantly musky, if you will when applied at -- ahem -- various places below the waist. I vary amounts applied accordingly.

**DONOTDELETE**

10-07-2002, 03:32 AM

On the inner forearms is where I have been putting it. I\'ll try lower down.

CptKipling

10-07-2002, 03:41 AM

Doc Smell:

I haven\'t applied SOE to pits, but I sometimes spray TE there. After a while OD reactions become more apparent and I got BO, but that was after playing football. SOE smells very cat pissy on the more exposed areas of my arms in about 1 hour, sometimes less. Will have to experiment applying lower down aswell, have done that with JB-X with good results.

bpg1

10-07-2002, 06:26 AM

I\'ve always put SoE behind my ears and on the side (away from hair) of my neck. In my experience, the smell pretty much fades completely after a few hours, or at least is hardly noticable...How long is nol --> none oxidation supposed to take in people\'s experience...How long does it take people to notice a -none style cat pissy smell when wearing SoE?

CptKipling

10-07-2002, 06:32 AM

I think the rancid smell of SOE isnt just -none. It has to be something else aswell.

Like I said it takes about an hour in some place, but it doesnt seem to happen at all in others. Actually, tell a lie, I applied once in the morning, then when I woke up the next day with my arm next to my head I was like \"Aww wtf is that smell?!?! Oh its me!\"

Irish

10-07-2002, 06:34 AM

When I looked into this I found the various conversion processes described to be complex and full of individual variables. In short, I quit worrying about it cause I found it too intricate to control/predict. So I just try to keep a clean body to which I add the pheros of interest to me. But here\'s a few things I might add to the discussion:

1. It is reported that the human axillary secretions (most of our phero products use these chemicals) undergo complex conversion reactions when they appear on the skin. This is mostly due to skin bacteria. In general, men and women have different types of bacteria colonies on the skin. Beyond that there are also individual differences in the types of bacteria a person may happen to have. The different types of bacteria metabolize the pheros differently, and the differing byproducts have a lot to do with your individual scent being different from someone else\'s. The conversions of pheros can even be two-way, back and forth from original phero to a metabolite and back again to the original compound. The general trend however is from less odorous to more odorous. At the end of this post is one study you can refer to on this - there are many others. Bottom line for me, there\'s too much going on here, with too many individual variables, for me to confidently predict what an applied phero on my skin might turn into (how will I know what bacteria live there? etc).

2) aka\'s point makes sense about stress changing the scent. Your apocrine glands are ennervated by the sympathetic nervous system - which controls certain \'automatic\' functions in times of stress, danger, etc. So it would be no surprise that in times of stress your apocrine glands were dumping your own natural pheros at an increased rate. Your own increased phero secretions could definitely change the reaction/conversions from what you notice in more calm periods.

3) I\'ve noticed nol-heavy pheros on me really change overnight into something more pungent. I\'ve been told I needed a bath by a woman the next day, and I had to agree with her. Something definitely happens on my skin - I just don\'t think I\'ll ever know enough to manipulate that conversion to my advantage. So I just note it in a general sense (nol overnight smells BAD on me) and try to work with that basic idea. Others may have better luck figuring this out or controlling it. I think generalizations won\'t work because of the many individual variables and the complexity of the conversions. But one could definitely experiment and at least look for unpleasant \'no-no\'s.

---------------reference--------------
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1994 Mar;48(4):409-18
Comparison of 16-androstene steroid concentrations in sterile apocrine sweat and axillary secretions: interconversions of 16-androstenes by the axillary microflora--a mechanism for axillary odour production in man?

MadMaxx

10-07-2002, 06:54 AM

I don\'t have a problem with SOE; smells the same hours later. I like what a.k.a. said though, I know that when I have stress and/or anger my sweat smells worse. I don\'t know whether it actually makes the pheros I am wearing smell worse though. These days, I don\'t have the stress/hositlity problem since I use EW daily which keeps me in dreamland. Thus, that may explain why SOE stays the same for me all day. Also, contrary to what some are saying, location does not seem to matter for me; soft skin or on top of hairy foreams; no difference. I am not much of a sweater though.

Whitehall

10-07-2002, 09:32 AM

I have noticed a definite difference in scent changes with SoE depending on site of application. When I apply to my neck or chest, no negative change. Apply to the back of my hands and it quickly changes into something pungent and disagreeable.

Haven\'t tried SoE to the armpits or genitals although NPA to the pubic hair is a nice technique.

DrSmellThis

10-07-2002, 01:01 PM

Thanks irish. Great reference. Great post!!

Any further references, especially clickable, would be appreciated.

I don\'t think it\'s at all unreasonable to think we can funnel this process in a certain direction, as I\'ve suggested above. General information just requires general strategies.

I think it\'s unreasonable to think of stopping bacteria on your skin, and probably counterproductive as well. On the contrary I would suppose that fostering the healthiest possible epidermal colony, which would itself control unhealthy microbial outbreaks, as well as manage the conversions, is preferred. The simplest thing to try first is dissolving FOS in the mones. Things like managing your body\'s acidity, detoxification and diet (e.g., minimizing simple sugars) are also suggested. A little meditation before applying mones, perhaps?

This also suggests the wisdom of using those mones that make me feel good, as my pleasant emotional state will encourage the mones on my skin to evolve in a pleasant direction. It also suggests that certain mones are better for certain individuals, regardless of general considerations (age, height, etc.).

How \'Bout Dem Irish?

DrSmellThis

10-07-2002, 01:28 PM

Incidentally, Irish, did your study suggest that all the -mones convert on the skin, or just -nol? Some more/less than others? Sounds like multiple -mones convert.

DrSmellThis

10-08-2002, 11:33 AM

bump to compensate for unpopularity of \'more academic\' threads.

Irish

10-08-2002, 12:23 PM

Gower found 3alpha and 3beta -nol, dienol, and sometimes dienone to increase on the skin over levels in the fresh apocrine secretion in the same areas of the armpit. He also found none to have decreased on the skin compared to levels of fresh secretions. However the conversions were complex and he had trouble keeping track of what was turning into what...metabolites could be further consumed by other bacteria and turned back into original compounds and the like. It was a seething stew of conversions and cross-conversions.

In vitro he found general trends of conversion by bacteria:

\"The metabolism of 16-androstenes was studied in vitro in the presence of two aerobic coryneform bacteria, previously shown to metabolize testosterone as well as being capable of producing odour from extracts of axillary sweat in an odour-generation test. Although both coryneforms caused complex metabolic reactions and were capable of oxidation or reduction at C-3 and C-4, the overall direction favoured reduction. For example, large quantities of the more odorous 5 alpha-androstenone and 3 alpha-androstenol were formed from androstadienol and androstadienone.\"

Gower found some bacteria did not convert pheros at all, especially if the bacteria could also not digest testosterone.

I just don\'t think we can really tell what these steriods might turn into when applied to an individual\'s skin - too many variables. It looks like case-by-case basis results to me, with no way apart from serious labwork to ever know what the results truly are. That puts the whole issue for me in the \'can\'t know - can\'t do much about it\" category. So I just wash \'em off and reapply.

A final point that I have alluded to before...the bacterial conversion can also produce acid byproducts, what we typically recognize as BO. I can vouch for the fact that nol on my skin turns into something foul over several hours. It may be partially none or other things but it\'s definitely more than just none - and it\'s rank. Women hate it too, and have told me so.

jvkohl

10-08-2002, 09:22 PM

Aparently, Irish is another pro on this Forum; nice to see others interested in the research end of things. I will add, however, that -rone is not one of the 16-androstenes, so even less is known about -rone conversions.

Irish

10-09-2002, 05:23 AM

jvk - not a pro at all, just determined to improve my love life. I am extremely curious, and have a scientific bent, so I\'m led to scientific studies for info.

Science isn\'t everything in human interaction, but it is a place to start. It sure beats the superstitious nonsense about romance we\'ve been fed all our lives. It\'s actually a healing process for me to discover scientific reasons behind behavior - it takes things from the realm of \'magic\' into the realm of things that are understandable. I know science never has all the answers to anything really, but lately I\'ve learned enough to put my mind at ease about several issues.

I want to thank you for the many insights you\'ve led me to - your book is a revelation to anyone approaching these issues for the first time.

DrSmellThis

10-09-2002, 07:36 AM

So apparently all 4 of the major mones convert, usually in the direction of simpler and smellier compounds; and part of the problem is the acids formed on the skin as byproducts. A1 converts to -none and both none and -nol may reduce over time (at least in the studied cases) into other things. The pheromones actually on one\'s body over time have as much to do with the nature of one\'s epidermal ecosystem as with the -mones applied; and finally, skin or sweat pH also might be a factor.

The question arises as to what to do after the mones have been on your skin for a few hours -- apply baking soda? Seems that a variety of mones is a good thing, except for the stink, all other things being equal. It again suggests the wisdom of dissolving essential oils into raw mones to inhibit bacteria from eating them.

Correct me if I\'m wrong.

CptKipling

10-09-2002, 07:39 AM

All these reactions are very to butanoic acid, which iirc is a very BO like smell. Well this comes from my Chem teacher(last year). Wasn\'t paying attention and then someone mentioned a ketone! Now I know what that is!

BassMan

10-09-2002, 07:48 AM

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

Seems that a variety of mones is a good thing, except for the stink, all other things being equal. It again suggests the wisdom of dissolving essential oils into raw mones to inhibit bacteria from eating them.

Correct me if I\'m wrong.

<hr></blockquote>Your thinking matches my experience. I get the best results from mones using multiple and broad applications of dilute solution, said applications spaced hours apart. I can smell the changes on my skin. With my particular body chemistry, the changes are almost always towards something that smells _better_ (I get the \"boy, you smell good\"s largely after things have aged for most of a day).

Now here\'s a theory - I wonder if our individual concentration preferences end up being based on what our skin does to the stuff - it seems like smaller apps of more concentrated solutions would expose the mones to less skin, and therefore, less bacterial action, larger apps of dilute mixes over more skin to more bacterial changes...

Since I seem to age in the direction of something useful, I would want to make it age as much as possible. Hmmm....

Whitehall

10-09-2002, 08:19 AM

THe concentration on the skin factor could explain some of the differences between NPA and TE that I\'ve noticed.

Irish

10-09-2002, 10:36 AM

In the \'natural state\' the individual human phero signature would be formed by several factors:

1) composition and amount of the secretions (vary by gender, health, diet, genetic makeup, hormonal status, mental/emotional state)
2) bacterial colonization (also vary by gender and among individuals)
3) individual skin chemicals and enzymes altering the secretions
4) individual hairiness (hair appears to function as a disperser of pheros and odors)
5) personal or group habits (primarily washing - like frequent swimmers vs. landlubbers)
6) activity (sweating)
7) social status (subordinates are in state of fearful watchfulness of the dominant, which could alter the sympathetic nervous system release of apocrine secretions)
8) sexual activity (close contact with partners \'rubs off\', sympathetic nervous system reactions during sex stimulates apocrine glands)
9) other stuff I don\'t know about (I\'m not going to get into the anal scent glands or the urine-scenting gland in the foreskin - yikes!)

All this stuff would add up to a changing personal scent signature, with all kinds of ongoing chemical conversions and events changing the brew in real time.

Anyone who has ever been camping over a few days time has experienced how quickly a n odor \'signature\' develops. In Che Guevara\'s classic Guerilla Warfare, he describes how his men were forced to go weeks without bathing in tropical combat conditions. They became familiar with each other\'s individual scent. This was valuable in night combat, as they could identify each other\'s location by scent, without seeing or speaking to each other and betraying position. There are probably many functions of human scent/phero signatures, including sex attraction which most of us are experimenting with.

The irony of this is we appear to be well-designed to generate and receive these scent signals - but civilization has removed scent display as a feature of human social life. We wash all this stuff off daily, and present a blank scent picture, or substitute non-human \'pleasant\' scents for our own. Maybe this is just the natural consequence of \'civilization\' - after all, we also wear clothes too, covering our visual display options that our animal relatives use in their social life.

That\'s why we become so excited about the possibility of pheromones without conscious odor…that would allow us to use the power of chemical signals without violating society\'s rules against human scent display.

I think we\'re stuck with the societal ban against natural human stink, just like we are stuck wearing clothing. In a primitive utopia maybe we could revert to the \'wild\', but in reality we are domesticated monkeys who don\'t like to be reminded of our animal side (or perhaps our adult side - children have much less odor until puberty) by the presence of human stink.

I think a lot of our attempts to present or augment our \'natural\' phero signature are doomed to societal disapproval. Once we start to smell like ourselves people will notice and react badly - it\'s against the \'rules\'. What I see myself doing is complying with society with accepted hygiene, but then adding back in some synthetic pheros we have identified as \'active\' or at least available. Even then we have to cover the scent of these synthetics when they are noticeable. I am washing the palette clean, then creating an socially-acceptable (stealthy) synthetic signature, usually aiming for a desired sexual effect.

But we know so little about the meaning of the scent signals, and we have so few chemicals to play with. In mammals the patterns of phero concentration have different meanings, so the same chemicals in different concentrations have differing meanings. This is likely true for us too, but we have no idea what the mixes we come up with might \'mean\' to the target, what the overload (od) levels might be, etc.

But we experiment and watch for results, which is good enough. It\'s amazing we get as many results as we do, considering we remove our natural scent and plaster ourselves blindly with powerful synthetics, creating \'loud\' and unknown messages for our \'targets\'.

But that\'s also why it\'s fun.

BassMan

10-09-2002, 10:43 AM

Great post. Thanks!

DrSmellThis

10-09-2002, 02:52 PM

Hey guys and gals! Just wanted to say this thread has been a pleasant suprise. Thanks.

DrSmellThis

10-09-2002, 03:27 PM

Great post in general, Irish. Your posts have really made this thread for me.

But I have to \"strongly\" disagree that attempts to augment our natural scents are doomed to failure. This just seems wrong and self-defeating.

Our natural scents have always been, and will always be, what gets us laid. People with a good chemistry together virtually always adore one anothers\' scents. People tend to like the scents of their friends -- to find them comfortable. I still remember the wonderful masculine scent of my father as a small toddler when he would sit me on his lap in the rocker. I\'m still creating colognes based on my memory of that.

This idea that people just smell bad to other people is just incorrect. We are in denial if we believe that. Even people who say they only like the \"fresh-bathed\" human smell, are really reacting to the pheromones left after a hot bath -- -nol is prominent among them.

The whole perfuming industry since 5000 BC has been based on the recognition that the opposite is true. That is why every perfume has an animal note built into it. That is why pheros in reasonable quantities improve the smell of colognes for most folks.

Now \"unclean\", chronically unbathed, and unhealthy people, or people with a negative attitude smell bad. That\'s true. ultra strong concentrations of \"animalic\" (the general term in perfumery) smells stink. That\'s also true. But if we lose the big picture we\'ll lose the small picture too.

The whole goal for me is to artfully enhance our natural smells. When I make a perfume for a woman I smell her armpits, and wherever else she\'ll let me. That tells me what oils to use -- ones that smell like her natural smells, along with complementary ones. This approach has been consistently successful for perfumers throughout the ages.

Civet smells like pee and butts straight up, but is truly one of the most highly prized scents in all perfumery. Because of its literal scent, not despite of it! Concentration is the issue.

All other thing being equal, people who wash too much get laid less.

People who hate bodies hate themselves, and pandering to that is a waste of time.

Just learn to be sensitive to your own smell. Is that too much to ask? Learn to appreciate it. Don\'t be afraid of it. Then you can enhance it, and can also reign it in as necessary. Think of your own smell as a \"partial perfume,\" waiting to be completed.

**DONOTDELETE**

10-09-2002, 04:41 PM

Wow! that was an awsome post DrSmellThis !

Unfortunately, not everybody have a good sense of smell like us and some people will never understand what you say when you write \"or people with a negative attitude smell bad\". Well, I do understand because I do smell it. Some people also react more clearly with their odor. Those people usually don\'t need additional phero (or only tiny amount just for some extra fun) if they are in a good mood. My gf is one of those. Whatch out when she\'s not in the mood tho!

When I first smelled her some years ago, I knew that I HAD TO go out with her. It was not a \"maybe\" or \"let\'s try\" situation. It was a \" I don\'t give you the choice baby\" situation. Fortunately, she also loved my smell.

She bath every day or two (at worst), use unscented soap and very light smelling shampoo. She never use perfume, except for an occasional drop of vanilla or some very gentle smell that won\'t completely cover her own aura. I do the same (except with my new phero testing hobby). We also use deodorant only if needed (when going to work on a hot day and such). I still think she use too much but well, it\'s her choice. If I could I would keep her horny all the time and wrap her in perfume-grade wax o extract her odor !

On a related note, I can identify some wines and other fine alcohols only by smell. Ok, don\'t ask me to identify this Margaux or this other Margaux unless I tasted them previously but if you ask me wich one is a Margaux and which one is a St-Emilion, it will be an easy task for me. Some other people could barely identify a white wine from a red wine in a blind tasting... Sorry if that sounds snooty, believe me it is not, it\'s just to illustrate the fact that we all have a different level of sensitivity to odors and that apply to everything. Sometimes it\'s very annoying to be so sensitive, sometimes it\'s very fun and usefull. I get an automatic headache if I walk in a perfume shop but on the oposite, I can tell only by smell if my gf is ready for some action.

That being said,I have no doubt we can always enhance our body odor to project some messages and not only by using pheros. Of course I\'m not talking about getting a generic perfume off the shelf...

**DONOTDELETE**

10-09-2002, 05:47 PM

The guy I see is unique in my experience for the effect of his smell on me, and it\'s his breath, his hair, his skin, I mean, everything about the way he smells everywhere completely intoxicates me. I\'ve never experienced that before. And he doesn\'t wear any scent, ever, or scented products. But I swear, especially after sex, there\'s a smell like patchouli in the room, and I don\'t think it\'s me, it\'s him. or the combination of the two of us, I don\'t know.

But Dr. SmellThis, how can you be sensitive to your own smell? I have a good nose but I can\'t smell myself unless I\'m dirty, like, 2 days without a bath, which occasionally happens on a weekend if I\'m engrossed in a project. I can\'t smell myself. Is that unusual?

Irish

10-10-2002, 05:53 AM

Reading between the lines a bit in my posts, I think you\'ll see I agree with most of what you say. I don\'t think human scent is *inherently* bad or unhealthy or a health hazard. What I do think is that human smell has been *rejected* by our culture at large.

We are convinced rightly or wrongly that we need to remove our scent to be socially accepted. You might argue that human scent is natural, healthy to be around, and the societal reaction to it is some hysterical reaction to deny our animal nature. And I\'d probably agree.

Or you could argue that we only play down our animal scent to get along in a close-dwelling society, because in the animal kingdom scent has much to do with threat display and status (it\'s not just for sex), and we have to tone down aggression to live in a civilization. And I might agree with that too.

Or you could say that if we all let our odor freely bloom that soon we\'d adjust and learn to enjoy and operate well with it. And be physically better off. That is pretty obvious, and underlies my little reference to Guevara\'s men becoming used to their own stench, and actually using it in their daily lives.

But my real point is we have as a culture adopted a non-odor (or at least a more non-threatening juvenile-like scent) standard. I\'m not saying it\'s good or bad - just that it exists and won\'t change in our lifetime. Back to my Guevara reference, in his closed little group natural scent was accepted and useful. What he doesn\'t report in his book, and others did, was that when visitors came to him in his camp they were sickened to the point of wretching by his personal body odor. These things are defined and encultured by the group you are a part of.

So what I\'m talking about is reactions in ordinary social settings. Sure, if a couple like to go without washing off their scent for each other\'s pleasure, I applaud that and they\'re probably better off for it. But if they think they are going to come to work in my office without bathing they have another thing coming.

Unless you are a human mutant you will develop what we call BO if you don\'t bathe - humans are naturally odiferous and chemical reactions on secretions will proceed. I\'m not saying that is inherently evil, hell it\'s probably inherently good. But I live in society, I accept its primary rules to get along, and I have become accustomed to it and don\'t mind. Someone could also argue that wearing clothing is unnatural, the human body is beautiful, and we\'d lead freer lives if we went around naked. I can\'t argue with that either, but to individually force that idea on society will result in my incarceration. Societal norms are that important to us.

So, the upshot on all this is my desire to increase sexual success with the women of my society. I will approach them well-scrubbed and perfumed with as much hidden pheros as I can get away with. Call me silly, but the women I will be approaching have also bought into the same societal rules of hygiene I have. I think we will get along fine.

I\'ll leave it to the rebels and pioneers to push the stink envelope to whatever glories await. I\'ll hang back here with the girls that bathe.

DrSmellThis

10-10-2002, 10:33 PM

Practice makes perfect, FTR.

Many folks use too many artificial smells, such as deodorants, which interfere with one\'s sensitivity. I don\'t know.

Irish, I guess we\'ll just have to agree to disagree about collective Western humanity\'s behavior in response to human smell. I do think you represent your viewpoint well. Many would agree with you. I like your ideals.
No one is advocating we don\'t bathe, or rarely bathe. I bathe on alternate days, and have better luck with women on my off days. Women love my smell on those days. On some days I wash only the parts that might stink by the end of the day, and rinse the rest. Once a week I really thoroughly wash and exfoliate my whole body, and once every two weeks I take a long hot sauna to sweat the BS out. I have never been told I have BO, and I have friends who definitely would tell. I use essential oils daily. These inhibit microbial growth, but do not kill it off.

My friend Jason gets laid extremely often, and he also moderates his bathing habits. At age 30 he had laid well over two hundred women, a figure I do not doubt, based on what I\'ve seen. He uses no artificial pheros.

People might claim they only like obsessively washed and sanitized people, but that is just not how most people behave in real life when confronted with real people. Magazines and TV commercials pander to paranoia about bodies, but that is just not how the average person reacts to smells on a daily basis. The media also says women have to be blonde, big titted, anorexic and wear tons of makeup and hairspray to be attractive. Real, average men aren\'t this way either.

If you go without antiperspirants for a while and watch your nutrition, your smell improves significantly. Some folks do have chronically smelly pits for various reasons. They should wash their pits as often as necessary, etc, and figure out why they smell like this.

I am not \'pushing any envelopes\". I am rather smack dab in the middle of the highest chances for nookie in this culture.

Fortunately, everyday humanity cannot be negated by Madison Avenue.

Irish

10-11-2002, 06:34 AM

Actually I think we agree almost entirely Doc, esp. in practice…our only real difference is where we target our personal scent level. Human odor can\'t be eliminated; our personal hygiene establishes the level of odor we present to the world. You and I have different setpoints is all, and not all that different really.

I\'m mainly commenting on our cultural taboo against noticeable human scent. That\'s a cultural imposition on us, but cultural directives are very strong, and often override biology as a behavioral guideline in practice.

From just a primate body standpoint, we don\'t need to bathe at all. Our chimp cousins developed into separate subspecies a few yards from each other, never interbreeding, simply because they won\'t swim across a river! We too can go through life without ritualistic washing just fine, and physically we are probably designed to do so - just look at our ape relatives. We have scent glands like other animals, our scent changes with age, esp. puberty, just like other animals…but in our present culture we ritualistically deodorize ourselves.

You and I both do it Doc - the difference is you preserve more of your natural human odor than I do. And you put more effort into modifying it \'naturally\'. I\'ve bought into what I see as the cultural guideline. You allow yourself more human scent than that, for reasons I can readily understand and am not criticizing - you\'re a bit beyond what I would call the \'norm\' but still doing what I do. That is, ritualistically washing or partially washing away some of your natural scent, and adding foreign substances to alter or control what nature gave us as a scent. I go after myself daily with a bar of Dial and a scrubrush, you have a less extreme regimen and add cleverly designed scents. But it amounts to the same thing, only a question of degree. We both alter/limit our natural scent. And I\'m saying it is culture that drives us to do that.

Having camped in primitive conditions I got a taste of what our \'natural\' scent signature would become if we abandoned cultural taboos about odor. We have scent glands, and they work. Not just in the pits, but around the anus, in the foreskin - we can scent our excreta and mark territory just like a dog or muskox. After puberty our sex hormones metabolize and are broadcast in the air. Our scent is identification, an announcement of status (age related) and threat/submission, a record of where we have been, a sex lure, and so much more we probably don\'t realize. Surprise…just like any other animal. But all that is buried by our taboos, and it is culture that demands we control the obvious reminder of our animal side - our odor.

It was interesting when FTRH commented that she couldn\'t smell herself unless she went a few days without bathing…when she was \'dirty\' she could smell herself. That\'s what I\'m talking about - our culture has taught us to equate noticeable human odor with \'dirtiness\'. Rachel Hertz showed how \'offensive\' odor (read \'culturally offensive\') of a man was the single most important factor for women that could discourage them from having sex with that man. Knowing that minefield exists I\'m careful to observe the scent \'norm\', regardless of how excessive or biologically irrelevant that \'norm\' might be.

There may be underlying reasons for that - society may need to make individuals less threatening and sexual just to exist closely together. We do certainly adopt a juvenile stance individually - shaving beards and armpits, removing natural strong adult odor, preserving \'youthful\' appearance. A juvenile is a non-hostile in nature and is ignored and excluded from the dominance/sexual struggles of an animal group. Society probably has to tone down the aggressive behavior, make us more like harmless juveniles, to keep things under control. And a light or nonexistent scent is the scent of a harmless juvenile.

But whatever the reason, we find ourselves in an odd and \'unnatural\' condition. We remove our natural scent (to whatever degree) and conform to society\'s norm that denies our animal side. I don\'t think that norm will change in my life. But think if we were transported to an isolated island, our body odor left uncontrolled and our taboos somehow forgotten, we would undoubtedly discover how humans were designed to interact with and use the social signals provided by body odor and pheromones. Was it like that in the Garden of Eden?

DrSmellThis

10-11-2002, 07:10 AM

I\'m not that old -- ask Whitehall.

Whitehall

10-11-2002, 09:34 AM

I don\'t remember back to the Garden of Eden but the ancient Romans bathed as much as we Americans do (at least the upper and middle classes.) What we Americans have in common with the Romans at the peak of their development are societies very interested in power and with considerable social mobility. We are both aggressive but sociable - hence political - cultures.

I suspect that the emphasis of minimizing natural fragrances is a function of that close striving of people - we both need/needed to \"get along\" while competing fiercely. So there is a connection between politics and personal hygene!

The book to read is the new biography of Cicero.

DrSmellThis

10-11-2002, 01:09 PM

So what were the orgies like?

jvkohl

10-11-2002, 09:30 PM

Irish covered a lot of ground. Only thing I can add is that I referenced The Scented Ape by Michael Stoddart fairly frequently in The Scent of Eros. Stoddart is also an authority on pheromones, but to my knowledge he hasn\'t studied recent developments, or delved into the neuroscience. His approach is more focussed on anthropology, and he tells a good tale. If others want to understand more about what Irish is saying, read The Scent of Eros, of course--but if you\'ve already read it; check out \"The Scented Ape.\"

DrSmellThis

10-12-2002, 07:49 AM

Yes, a very productive thread. I\'m getting some practical ideas from it, and I hope others are, too.

a.k.a.

10-12-2002, 12:37 PM

Lots of good information and provocative opinions in this thread.

Thank you, Irish, for sharing all this information. It confirms something that I (and Marv14Yang) have noticed in practice: concentration is more important than volume. Large dosages increase the rate and area of dispersion but the “strength” of hits seems to depend on concentration.

Regarding the stink factor. I don’t think it’s accidental that love-scent’s stinkiest product is reported to produce the most “sexual” hits. On the other hand you can’t smell like three days in the tropics and expect good results.

I think nature and “civilization” have their own kind of stinks. I notice many people that smell antiseptic or perfumy. And that’s not attractive at all.

I once had a very strong reaction to just one whiff of a woman’s (unperfumed) armpit. My first thought was “Eeeuw!”. My second thought was “I bet she’s really hot in bed.” Within seconds, I was obsessing over her and making a fool of myself to get just one little smile out of her. The attraction was so strong I thought she had cast a spell on me. Years later I figured out it was pheromones, but this experience makes me feel that the stuff we’re playing with is just a shadow of what human attraction was like in paleolithic times.

So, in my mixes, I strive for a slight natural stink vs. a “nice” cologne smell. But I also strive for minimal dosages, because it only takes one good whiff.

MadMaxx

10-12-2002, 04:54 PM

I agree with a.k.a about the \"antiseptic and perfumy.\" The perfumy is less bothersome, unless you are only referrig to people who really overdo it. It has always amazed me how badly some women smell, and I don\'t mean body odor. I have had female friends, acquaintances, and have even met some relatively hot women that came onto me, and their smell just revolted me. I can\'t really describe it, but it is not sweat, and it is not perfume. I smells like some sort of deodorant smell, or like the smell of cosmetics, and I am not referring to the perfumes in either of those products. It is just something gross. Another case, a man though, that I work with; he is 30 but smells like an old lady, or a like a funeral home, or like some of the women that I can\'t stand the smell of. I finally asked him one day what the hell he wears and I found out that he wears only some kind of \"natural\" deodorant. It is fricking hideous. In my opinion, a hint of cologne or something combined with his natural smell would probably be way better.

Anyway, as far as these stinky women I am talking about, does anybody know what I am talking about??? Can anyone do a better job of explaining it???

**DONOTDELETE**

10-12-2002, 07:38 PM

Well, I took a break from a session of smelling myself (on the doc\'s advice that practice makes perfect), and read a magazine -- From this month\'s Cosmo: \"Celebs Do The Silliest Things\"... David Arquette is eccentric, but his recent revelation about having a fetish for sniffing his wife Courteny Cox Arquette\'s armpits is weird ...even for him. He is quoted as saying: \'Courtney may be pretty, but if she\'s not on top of it, she smells like a truck driver ... and I like it.\' Hope Courteney doesn\'t sweat his statement.\"There\'s also a two page article about the power of perfume, with subtitles such as \"One Whiff Can Hook A Hunk, Your Aroma Can Arouse Him, Scent Can Make Sex Even Steamier.\"Regarding stinky women - I think it\'s dirty hair. I\'ve had two coworkers who wore decent perfumes but had this underlying funk that made me nearly gag -- one who used to sit next to me, who I liked, we got along well, but oh man that funk -- one day she recommended to me this hair gel that she really liked because you could get up in the morning and just dampen your hair, and the gel would reactivate, and you could comb your hair into style without having to wash it. She grinned and said she hadn\'t washed her hair in four days. I\'m thinking, well, that explains a lot! Of course she couldn\'t smell herself, but the rest of us could smell her all right -- no one had the heart to tell her (not even me). Same deal with another woman at the firm where I am now - that funk (funeral home/old/rank/WTF?) on her is so strong I actually thought I didn\'t like her for a long time. I do like her, in fact I like her pretty well. But I can\'t be around her for long before I feel like I want to heave. And although her hair is styled nicely, it\'s weighed down with gunk and I would bet she doesn\'t wash it more than probably once a week.Styling products attract smells like crazy. Cooking odors and smoke I especially notice just seem to magnetize to hair with gel or spray or any kind of gunk in it, but any smell at all accumlates in hair with a lot of products in it -- add to that a habit of not shampooing, and you\'ve got funk.The other possibility is someone who wears their clothes over and over again without having them cleaned. Dry cleaning\'s expensive and I have one girlfriend who thinks she can get away with wearing the same top four or five times before sending it to the cleaners, with the logic that since it\'s not stained or visibly dirty, it\'s ok to keep wearing it. NOT. Same deal as hair - clothes absorb odors.

**DONOTDELETE**

10-12-2002, 08:47 PM

It seems to me that our instinct to be offended by another\'s personal scent has to do with maintaining what we feel is appropriate distance, has to do with preservation of our individual space. Studies have been done to measure the amount of space different cultures need between two people in order to feel comfortable -- as I recall, in the U.S., the comfort zone is a good 3 feet. Anything closer than that is a little too close -- that inner space is reserved for intimates only. This distance, coincidentally (or maybe not) is the same distance as is recommended for the reach of one\'s perfume -- if you\'re wearing so much that someone can smell you beyond 3 feet, you\'re wearing too much, is the standard advice.I don\'t think it\'s so much that personal odors offend in and of themselves. It\'s that one\'s personal scent is an intimate thing, and if it has become strong enough to penetrate another\'s personal space, it is considered an affront -- almost to the point of it being an act of aggression. Look at the way we talk about smell to describe not liking someone or something (I think it/he/she stinks...Boy, those Redskins sure did stink up the place...)People that we don\'t mind smelling -- whether it\'s family, lovers, comrades in arms -- those are our tribe. These are people we allow in our personal space physically. It makes sense that we would also tolerate/enjoy their smells.It seems to me from observation that someone whose smell, whether it\'s perfume or natural smell, agreeable or disagreeable, penetrates beyond what\'s considered appropriate, is seen as disrespectful, as giving an affront, or as imposing/being a threat.The aspect of allowing one\'s body odor to manifest being thought of as disrespectful shows up in relationships constantly -- I\'ve known several couples where the husband had the habit of not shaving or showering over the weekend, and that would distress the wife no end, because it was the only time they had time to make love, but because he had begun to ripen already by Saturday morning, she couldn\'t get near him -- and one couple in particular where the husband was a black belt and a Navy lieutenant, and had somewhere picked up the idea that soap was bad for you, so showered but didn\'t use soap, and never used deodorant -- I never smelled him, but I was never close up enough to. His wife stayed nearly in tears about it and would beg him to use soap and deodorant and even bought cologne for him and asked if he could just put some on the back of his neck for her. Needless to say, they were having marital problems and there were power struggles over sexual issues, and one manifestation of those power struggles came in the form of his adopting hygeine habits that were repulsive to her -- he was throwing his smell in her face, and she could like it or not, and if she didn\'t, well, then they just wouldn\'t have sex. So there. He was using his smell as a way to dominate her.(It didn\'t work...she divorced him, took the house, the car, the baby, half of his money plus child support, and got herself a new lover...)