Anyone know what NPA SEcret ingredients R?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hi Everyone.

Does anyone know exactly what the secret ingredients are in NPA that make it soooooo good?

[franki]

The only people who know what the secret ingredients are, are Bruce and the people from LaCroy. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif I am sure the forum members here would share their knowledge here with us if they would know more about it.

[MaxiMog]

Does Bruce know? I thought that even he didn\'t know? What\'s with the secret ingredients anyway? As far as I\'m concerned, it may be just a story to trick people into buying those product instead of others. TE and NPA are both from Lacroy, right? And it\'s only those two that have secret ingredients? I\'m sure NPA and TE (certainly TE) do not work as good for everyone, so I fail to see if these ingredients are all that important...

[franki]

I do tend to think these ingredients play an important role. One of the things people reported about NPA/TE is that their targets are getting (sexual) dreams about them. As some people speculated it may have something do to with influencing the subconcious mind. It could as well be lot of BS. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Yes, Bruce knows about it, but he isn´t allowed to tell us about it. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[MaxiMog]

Maybe if we ask him really nice, or let him tell us through a private message... It would be good to get the guarantee that it really is not BS, that there are certain secret ingredients in it that should make the product better than the rest. Anyway, TE should be arriving at my place soon, so let\'s see what it does.

[franki]

Bruce has already confirmed that there ARE secret ingredients in there.

[MaxiMog]

I\'ll just have to believe your and Bruce\'s words, right? /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

What do the ingredients do? (I\'m mean, I can picture the result, but what causes it? Was it that they activate the VNO in a certain way?)

[jose]

I also think there are no secret ingredients but may be Bruce can shed light on the subject. NPA never worked for me anyway, but TE would give me mild hits.

[DrSmellThis]

I\'d also appreciate it if Bruce could shed any light on how to mix LaCroy mones with the regular Stone mones (and whether this is advisable).

Also what do the mystery mones do? What qualities do they have??

[Bruce]

Hi All,
I can confirm that there are definitely secret ingredients and they seem to be significant in terms of results. I am bound by an agreement with LaCroy not to say what those are. I have discussed the issue with them quite a bit, but the decission is firm and I can understand under the circumstances. There is something special there, and I have a feeling there are going to be plenty more new pheromone ingredients surfacing in coming years.
Sincerely,
Bruce

[DrSmellThis]

OK, Bruce, I accept that. But is the anything else you can say about those ingredients wihout revealing what they are? (see above Q\'s). We just need practical knowledge for mixing, etc.

Puh-leese /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Bruce]

RE mixing: There is a certain disclosed amount of aNONE in the 2.4 mg of pheros (per bottle of both NPA and Edge), but other than that none of the other standard pherochemicals, so mixing with NOL and RONE heavy items could definitely bring results and even mixing with NONE-only items like PI can swing the normal internal formula of NPA (or Edge) into a new zone. NPA is also made to be mixed with fragrance so that aspect goes without saying.
Bruce

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks Bruce.

As a whole product, what in your opinion would you guess is the Edge\'s type of effect on women? What makes it a good and unique product other than the number of mones?

[DrSmellThis]

Oh, and does \"disclosed amount\" mean it\'s OK to tell us how much none is in the 2.4mg? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

These are questions I\'m sure all the forum members could relate to. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Bruce]

I thought this NONE-content was posted on the website in the product descriptions, but I can\'t find it now. I am quite sure it has been discussed on the forum, but I will have to check it out to make sure.
Bruce

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks for looking that up, Bruce.

You\'re sure a tough nut to crack on the nique effects of NPA, though!
/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Maybe we should cry together first like on Barbara Walters...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Wooo Bruce, you actually know what the secret ingredients of NPA and Edge are?!

[xvs]

Bruce:

Can you at least confirm that the \'secret ingredients\' of NPA are or are not found in any other products you sell? If not, are they other andro-pheromones, or something completely different?

One other question: if the NPA secret ingredients work, can you prevail upon them to come out with a version that doesn\'t include -none, for those of us who find that --none doesn\'t work for us?

[DrSmellThis]

Interesting idea.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I keep thinking that one of the secret ingredients might be estratetraenal that\'s only found in Realm for Men, and maybe in Realm for Women.

[Watcher]

A1 and couplins. Probably not but thats my guess.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, if it were coupulins, there\'s no reason to keep it a secret.

[Watcher]

Well without actual disclosure we can only guess, try to put some pressure or just generate interest go get forum discussion going on the secret (they work however.)

http://www.anitadoth.com/home_down.htm (\"http://www.anitadoth.com/home_down.htm\")

[franki]

Watcher, it can´t be a-1 and copulins! Bruce wrote:

\"There is a certain disclosed amount of aNONE in the 2.4 mg of pheros (per bottle of both NPA and Edge), but other than that none of the other standard pherochemicals,

Other than that A-1 and cops usually trigger the kind of reactions I cannot quite link to NPA.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yep, i have to agree with Franki, sound like there is something totally new in there, maybe lacroy will provide a chemset of its own, full of new toys to play with!

[Gerund]

If you get the Beatles White album, and play the 3rd track on side A backward, and omit every other word, you\'ll hear John discussing the secret ingredients~

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Good one, good one.

[Gerund]

Thanks, FTR_ /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

But I wonder whether many of our younger bretheren have the faintest idea what the <font color=green>[b][i] white album is... /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[SonnyBlack]

its only the greatest album the Beatles ever made.....

[franki]

well, what is the white album?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Maybe this will turn them on to it. I listen to it still at least once a month.

Although, you know, I think the answer may be in Abbey Road. Maybe that secret ingredient is what they\'re really talking about in \"Come Together.\" It\'s probably joo-joo eyeball or toe-jam football.

[Gerund]

NOW I\'m beginning to have a fun Monday! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Whitehall]

The evolutionary root of NPA/TEs \"secret ingredients\" is that, during ovulation, women crave unusual pheromone signatures so that their offspring\'s immune systems will be as diverse as possible.

Note that LaCroy is located in Africa, the home of the greatest human DNA diversity on the planet. That diversity comes from the fact that Africa was the source of the human race and has inhabited the land longer than anywhere else. Hence, Africa should also be the source of the most diverse pheromone signatures on the planet too.

I speculate that LaCroy has found something in the scent of a Bushman or a Zulu or a Watusi that is rather unusual and so stimulates that diversity-seeking response in females. Maybe there\'s something in the sweat from a diet of raw cattle blood and yogurt eaten by a 7 foot tall Zulu warrior that drives the girls wild. Wilt \"The Stilt\" Chamberberlain certainly had some impressive claims in that regards.

OK, I admit, the above is a pure SWAG, but it makes for interesting speculation.



Note: \"SWAG\" - an engineering acronym for \"Scientific Wildass Guess.\"

[SonnyBlack]

happiness is a warm gun....hehehe

[Gerund]

You owe me a free bottle of Primal Instinct for steering this thread away from asking you more questions! /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

SWAG - I like that

[Gerund]

I remember it as \"Sophisticated Wild-Ass Guess\", but I think I like yours better. /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[Watcher]

Ok so we are looking at new compounds id be interested to find out what, but because NPA does that thing that it does with new toys at their disposal it will be a mainstay in a lot of peoples mixes also. I wouldnt mind a new chemset from lcroy either to play with.

www.anitadoth.com (\"http://www.anitadoth.com\")

[a.k.a.]

Wow. I love Whitehall\'s SWAG. If LaCroy hasn\'t already done it, I think somebody SHOULD go out and test some of those diverse pheromone signatures.

As for the other secret ingredient... I think it\'s Testosterone. TE makes me feel pumped up, guys are more defensive (even when there\'s no signs of OD from girls), women act more like guys when it comes to sex...

Not even scientific. Just a WAG. (But, if there\'s a pool, I was first.)

[Watcher]

Yeah that WAG or SWAG whichever way you look at it might be testostrone. Yeah it could be DHEA or tribulus in a liquid form who knows im sure though if we could experiment with new compounds from variuos suppliers (phil stone is rumoured to be about to realised new phero type compounds) EW is the beginning of course.

www.anitadoth.com (\"http://www.anitadoth.com\")

[Tom]

About the secret component:
- Are the secret component same between NPA and TE ?
- Is that possible in the future this component sold individually, so people can play/modify the concentration/amount ?
- What other product which have secret component : Realm, APC, SOE... ?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The stuff works, that\'s all that matters! LOL

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>




Yeah that WAG or SWAG whichever way you look at it might be testostrone. Yeah it could be DHEA or tribulus in a liquid form who knows im sure though if we could experiment with new compounds from variuos suppliers (phil stone is rumoured to be about to realised new phero type compounds) EW is the beginning of course.

www.anitadoth.com (\"http://www.anitadoth.com\")

http://www.chez.com/kristalisator/ (\"http://www.chez.com/kristalisator/\") sign the petition and say hello in the forum.


<hr></blockquote>

Watcher- would you write a complete effing sentence for once!!

[druid]

it is not that watcher does write complete sentences, he PMed me and explained it. His religion forbibs him from using a punction mark. but its ok because he always has something important to add to the discussion and knows his stuff.

[Whitehall]

I sincerely and seriously doubt that testosterone and tribulus would make ANY difference to pheromone signatures if used topically. Maybe testosterone would degrade on the skin into something interesting but it is a controlled substance in the US and LaCroy and Bruce would both be risking criminal charges for distributing controlled steroids.

One can test whether topical testosterone and DHEA would have effectiveness as pheromones by getting some of this:

http://www.sexualitysite.com/newlifestyleproducts.htm (\"http://www.sexualitysite.com/newlifestyleproducts.htm\")

[Watcher]

God you folks are getting picky, i was just throwing around a swag. I doubt that testorstrone would make any difference at all. The fact that it is a controlled substances adds further weight to that argument. Maybe NPA has another type of compound in it ?

Who knows \"is this good enough use of punctuation\", please folks is this good enough. Stop youre wingeing and read the threads and the CONTENT of what is contained therein.

Maybe i will just switch to a mind mapping type of response.

NPA = TESTOSTRONE? = UNSURE = MYSTERY = WE WANT TO KNOW = WHO CARES ABOUT PUNCTUATION JUST AS LONG AS IT IS READABLE AND UNDERSTANDABLE = NOW GET BACK TO PHEROMONE DISCUSSIONS.

Ok on the DHEA why i mention it is because if we get a discussion going then someone may come up with some new ideas. ITS CALLED GENERATING PEOPLES CREATIVITY BY RULING OUT WHAT ISNT IN A PRODUCT.

Watcher out (note yeah im pissed off)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You\'ve gotta love him...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>


Watcher, it can´t be a-1 and copulins! Bruce wrote:

\"There is a certain disclosed amount of aNONE in the 2.4 mg of pheros (per bottle of both NPA and Edge), but other than that none of the other standard pherochemicals,

Other than that A-1 and cops usually trigger the kind of reactions I cannot quite link to NPA.

<hr></blockquote>

Franki: does A-1 count as one of the \"standard\" pherochemicals? Is that the only reason people are saying that Bruce said NPA does not contain it? (note somebody said in this same thread that Bruce said that NPA does not contain A-1 or copulins before Bruce posted the above.)


Watcher: I find it much easier to get to the \"content\" of what a person is saying when it is written in the same language as mine. (I ken a little Spanish and German but nowhere near enough to get by.)

I think it also adds to your credibility and makes people more interested to listen to you if you can use the language properly.

Sorry to have gotten you upset (and for the language). I was feeling sort of grumpy when I wrote that. That being said though it did feel good and I don\'t know why that pissed you off.

[Walter]

patchy
You all are lucky. When Watcher (Paul from austraillia, Donald Duck) first came around he used no punctuation at all. None. He\'s doing a lot better and sometimes he even uses paragraphs. Also back then he was picked at for his punctuation so that might be why he was so touchy about it. He is a good guy though so cut him some slack. He bring up some good ideas like Do Clowns Have Sex.

[Watcher]

Hey you pissed me off along with another forum members Private Message on an unrelated topic. Lets just say a couple of very quick events and something that has happened to me where i am yesterday as far as annoying and stupid news outside cyber space lead to me blowing off steam and then also in a thread on masturbation. Im feeling better now.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So -- DO clowns have sex?

[Walter]

OH NO NOT AGAIN!!!!

[CptKipling]

Well I\'d never shag one, if that helps.

[Mtnjim]

Check out the thread:
<a target=\"_blank\" href=http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB4&amp;Number=11261&amp;page=&amp;vi ew=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1>http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB4&amp;Number=11261&amp;page=&amp;vi ew=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1</a>

From the archives, was quite a row.
By the way \"Donald Duck\" is now \"Watcher\"

[Walter]

Actually that was just some sicko who wondered into the forum.
I was talking about one of Paul\'s threads from when he was first trying to get 1000 posts. He was posting some BS topics and the clowns having sex was one of them.
Somehow it set off a lot of people. So of course he repeated it a while back.

[Walter]

http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB4&amp;Number=6014&amp;Searc h=true&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=clowns&amp;Match=Entire% 20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=6 014 (\"http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB4&amp;Number=6014&amp;Searc h=true&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=clowns&amp;Match=Entire% 20Phrase&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=6 014\")
This is the post that started it all. And I was wrong it was \"Do clowns get laid\".

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That ghostclown guy is enough to make a girl slit her throat. See. That\'s why I don\'t ever even let them spend the night...

WHEW man oh man

[Mtnjim]

Oh! /ubbthreads/images/icons/blush.gif

It had been a long time, and this was the one I remembered. Oh well when you get old and senile...

[Walter]

I never meant for that freak to be brought up.
I was just talking about watchers old threads.
Now I regreat ever bring the subject up.

[Mtnjim]

Back to the topic?

[Walter]

Mtnjim
I wasn\'t trying to insult you or anything. I totally forgot about that thread.
We aparantly posted at the same time and I just want you to know I didn\'t mean to piss you off or anything.
Also we should get back to topic you are right.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s ok. It was interesting to read. ccbythesea kicked his ass, so did a lot of you others, that was heartening. Watcher sure showed his style, too. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif But MAN, the coldheartedness of that guy. If I were in his wife\'s place and found out ANY of it, Lorena Bobbit would look like Miss Mary Sunshine...a.k.a.\'s post to him I thought was very impressive also.

[Mtnjim]

\"Mtnjim
I wasn\'t trying to insult you or anything. I totally forgot about that thread.\"

No problem~~wasn\'t insulted. AND I forgot about the thread YOU posted, oh well like I said (I think) old and senile...

[Watcher]

That guy trying to get hold of his sister in law with pheromones certainly set off some people around here.

Now back to the topic NPAs secret ingredients. Are they the same in NPA for women i have heard the difference is that instead of -none in the womens version it has -nol. (Pure rumour of course) But whatever they are they have the same effect so it must be a cross gender affecting compound. (drawing conclusions again here)

But just using some deductive logic to try and get peoples minds in the right direction.

[Tom]

Bruce: .... and I have a feeling there are going to be plenty more new pheromone ingredients surfacing in coming years

I hope we can contribute for better phero product in the future using this polling

http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB5&amp;Number=28735&amp;page=2&amp;v iew=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=0&amp;fpart= (\"http://www.server2.love-scent.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB5&amp;Number=28735&amp;page=2&amp;v iew=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=0&amp;fpart=\")

[Irish]

There\'s an issue about commercial phero products we need to keep in mind. That is, EROX has most of the exciting pheros patented for use in scented products. Look up their patent - many, many pheros and potential pheros are listed - the ones we would love to get our hands on if we could.

Other manufacturers then have to be sensitive not only to outright infringement, but also to the APPEARANCE of infringement. Why? Cuase you can be completely innocent and still get sued out of existence. It\'s called running out of money for lawyers before you prove you are in the right. Happens all the time - facing off against team of opposing corporate lawyers is often the last episode of a company\'s existence.

So if our providers of phero products want to keep some things under their hat, give \'em a break. Maybe they\'re just being careful and avoiding even the \'appearance of evil\'. If we hound them too much for info they may get spooked out of the marketplace altogether. Don\'t look a gift horse in the mouth...

The sad thing is that EROX is unresponsive to the marketplace. They insist on locking their patented pheros into products for the \'wrong\' gender, from our standpoint (e.g., putting female pheros in the mens cologne and vice-versa). They apparently don\'t want to market cologne products viewed as sexual attractants (which is exactly what most of us want!). But they hold the patent and have a lock on the market from a strong legal position.

[Whitehall]

Irish,

I\'ve made this point several times in the past, albeit without your elegance of language.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish, sounds like you know your way around patent law a little...in which case you know that you can obtain a valid patent just by tweaking someone else\'s claims. It\'s true that you can also be sued out of existence for alleged infringement. But Erox has so polluted everything they make with scent that their products are unusable at least for me. It would seem to me that just the removal of the scent and isolation of one or more of the pheromones (a la chem set approach) would be enough as a start. Did you know that SOE is not patented? Stood my hair on end to realize that.

Rambling but I\'m trying to say that Erox\'s hold on certain \'mones is by no means unbreakable - a first year at our firm could probably bust out a completely defensible patent. Erox being so unresponsive, I wish someone would get their hands on the wheel and do the paperwork.

[Irish]

FTRH - I\'m sure you\'re right that a motivated group could challenge and maybe prevail against Pherin/Erox. I\'m just not sure our current phero providers are motivated/able to do so. And if they aren\'t, I don\'t want to add to their concerns in this marginal marketplace by doing what regularly gets called for in this forum: that is, demanding that LaCroy or whoever reveal secret ingredients. I don\'t want these good manufacters hounded and spooked by us, especially if we are getting some things from them we will never get from EROX, and not get at all if they leave the marketplace.

I also wish EROX would get real products out there, or someone else would replace them who was able to legitimately serve us. I just don\'t see that happening as a practical matter. And I want to stay on good terms with the few outfits now operating that supply us.

EROX is an arm of a larger conglomerate researching pheros for medical use. They say with pride how strong their patent position is, and I tend to believe them. The cologne market is apparently a sideline for them, and one they really don\'t seem to understand or else want to downplay. I\'m willing to bet none of our phero providers want to fight with them. And if our providers want to keep a few \'secrets\', well that\'s probably to the customer\'s advantage, if we would just think about it...

Anyway, no big deal - I just get annoyed at the self-righteos demands on this forum that all secrets must be revealed. These providers are probably doing us a favor, and trying to stay in business. We may shoot ourselves in the foot if we aren\'t careful....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Got it. Here\'s to keeping it on the DDL.

[upsidedown]

If Erox was smart, they\'d license out their patent to allow other phero users to use their patented products, and just get a small cut off of everything the other company\'s sell. This seems to be done all the time in other industries. But, they may not be motivated to do this.

Or, FTR, maybe you could put on a full compliment of phero products and then use your best charm and maybe talk your law firm into challenging the Erox patent pro bono for the benefit of all society. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I did email the heads of the biopharm and chemical divisions, and received read receipts, but had no replies. Which is not surprising, considering the status leap - those people don\'t even speak to me in the hall (give them vertigo to look down that far lol). But I have do have a more stealth plan - it\'s just that the attorney I think would listen and help is CRUSHED by work right now and it would be cruel to ask him for anything at the moment.

You in IP law?

[upsidedown]

\"You in IP law? \" FTR

Were you directing that question to me? If so, then answer is no, I just play an IP lawyer on television. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Seriously, I was only joking about you approaching your firm. I didn\'t realize you were actually being a bit farsighted by doing something. I\'m impressed.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Dude. I don\'t play. I quit school \'cause of recess.

[Whitehall]

The big money is is patentable prescription drugs and that is what Erox, their venture capitalists, and pharmaceutical partners are going after. Cosmetics are an open market without government barriers to competitors - patents and FDA approvals.

Realm just got them in the game and gave them a reputation for bringing a product to market - important credibility issues for a young company. However, I would think that maintaining their patent position would be important to them if only to show that they are scrappy enough to play with the big boys, not directly for the money off the products.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The whole concept of IP law is foresight - to protect against any and all infringement that might happen in the future, so Erox did good, and they\'re woofin\' real loud, but ... if it came right down to it, I\'m not sure how much publicity they want to draw to themselves, either, for the exact same reasons that we\'re speaking of re the DDL. See what I mean? So it would almost be good strategy to get some method claims out with the existing ingredients and let Erox send a cease and desist letter. That opens the door to assignment negotiations. Our side could woof, too. I\'m sure Erox would be happier to share the wealth than to bring down too much scrutiny on themselves re FDA and your buddy Ashcroft and who knows who else.

Do I have holes in my head (don\'t answer that!) or does this sound right?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sometimes customers need to let companies know they would like to be able to purchase new products from them. Then the company will know that there is a demand for new products. Companies don\'t automatically know what their customers want, otherwise they wouldn\'t do market research. Customers telling you what they want without you asking them, can be even more valuable than solicited information from people who might not even be potential customers. So I see nothing at all wrong with letting companies that you want to do business with what you would like to be able to buy from them. I\'m not saying you should demand a product from them, but if you let them know they are a lot more likely to do what you want than if no one ever asks them. In most everything you are more likely to get what you want if you ask than if never act on it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, I think Erox knows we what we want, they just don\'t want to associate their name with it. However, I believe Erox did allow their patented products to be used under another name. I don\'t know if anyone is using the N.A. products.

[Irish]

Do any of us on this forum actually plan on starting a lab/company to compete with EROX?? That\'s my point - I don\'t think any of us do. If we did, then of course we could develop sound legal strategies and go after them. But if we are just armchair quarterbacks on this issue, blaring it on the forum and in emails to manufacturers, I\'m afraid all we are likely to accomplish is to alarm EROX and/or our few suppliers, and make life difficult or impossible for \'our side\'. No telling who monitors this forum, as JVK wisely observed once.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish, who else is patenting pheromones, do you know? Thanks for encouraging me to read the patents.

I just skimmed through one of their patents and all the things I said about phero\'s effects on me, including the weight loss, are explicable in that patent.
Also, just the one that I read is one of the tightest patents I\'ve ever seen, both from the standpoint of the way it\'s written and from the amount of prior art disclosed. I\'d love to see a file wrapper and read the prosecution history.
I pulled up a hit list of 23 on the U.S. Patent and Trademark site. Anybody wants a list of Pherin patents with \"pheromone\" in the patent, I\'ll send it to you pm.

I\'m shutting the hell up on the subject and probably the rest of us should, too, Irish is right. (as if that were in question, but I had to check it out for myself).

[DrSmellThis]

I\'ve also made the same points in this forum. I agree wholeheartedly.

Erox is keeping most all of the potential pheromones away from consumers. They are the only reason we can\'t use them. Like most any corporation, they couldn\'t care less. Can they blame us for hating them?

Lack of public goodwill sometimes does come back to haunt you, however.

[DrSmellThis]

Post deleted by DrSmellThis

[Irish]

I realy only read in detail the patent related to phero use in perfumed products. I think their thrust concerns steroids that affect the VNO - they developed an instrument to detect electrical activity in the VNO region when exposed to test chemicals. Thats why pheros like nol and none are not included - their focus is really in obtaining effects via the VNO.

I\'m really only interested in the patent issue insofar as I know they have one, and that it\'s likely enough to scare some of our friendly phero producers. I realize there are many legal issues about how strong a particular patent might be, how it could be challenged, etc My only concern here is that I continue to get my pheros, and that I don\'t do anything to stir up trouble for the producers. EROX is probably hopeless as far as producing anything I want, so I\'d hate to see the boat get rocked for the few valid producers we have.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It could hurt a lot. I see now why I never got a response from the department heads I wrote to. We have a direct client conflict. Not Pherin itself but one of the companies they are affiliated with. There\'s no way an attorney in our firm would touch this issue - with a ten foot pole. Like, not even to the extent of writing me back to say no.

SH*T!

[DrSmellThis]

Oh well, good work, FTR.

Let us know (or don\'t?) if you hear any good news.

[Walter]

I still don\'t understand how a company can patent a chemical that EVERYONE makes on their body.
So I am guessing before long we will have to pay Erox for not stopping our bodies from making A-1 or other pheromones?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Walter, you can have a patent on an object or substance - e.g., a copy of a human pheromone. More importantly, you can then patent your METHOD of using that object or substance. So, somebody has a patent on vulcanized rubber. Rubber comes from rubber tree plants, too, right? but this is different. Someone else can come along and say, hey, that vulcanized rubber that Walter made? Well, we made it green, and we\'ve come up for an entirely new use for it. We\'re putting it into condoms for when he shags the girls, \'cause he needs something that won\'t wear out under extreme heat and friction. They can get a patent on that.
See what I mean? So for a substance - not only the substance itself, but all the methods of delivery (gel, atomizer, lotion, put it up your nose, wear it in your hair, powder it on your balls) all those things are methods, and methods are patentable. Not only that. Say you own the patent on the substance and a patent on all the conceivable methods of using that substance. Now someone is messing around with your stuff and they find out that not only does it do all the things you said it did, but also makes purple hair grow out your nose. They can get a patent on your stuff making purple hair grow out your nose. It\'s stuff that\'s already been patented, but now the focus is on the novelty of the effect of the patented substance.
Get it?
For example, the patent on a certain psychotropic used for depression/anxiety disorders was running out (you only get so many years on a patent). Instead of losing complete rights to it, the company that makes that drug made a new patent with the same drug, but asserting that that drug is effective for premenstrual disorder. They put the exact same drug in a package with flowers on it and distributed it as a PMS cure - thus ensuring another 20 years use of a patent worth 5 million dollars a day. Same drug. New use.

[Walter]

Well I guess that makes sense, but the human race has been using pheromones since our race has existed and I don\'t see how they can keep us from using them to attract the other sex.

[Watcher]

The good news is that by supporting those producers that are creative and do research using pheromone compounds that arent pateneted, ie Stones labs etc and james kohl and lecroy and olner (attraction and andro 4.2). Is that this boosts thier profit margins and keeps them in the market. There is plenty of good news coming out of stone labs at the moment so maybe we should get behind phil stone support his products.

He did bring us EW of course - so maybe he has other things up his sleeves. We just keep using NPA and maybe even start pushing realm (maybe erox might wake up - i doubt it but anyway) The market can be strengthened through those other means.

[Walter]

Yeah but imagine if you could use all the pheros that Erox has locked up.
You could have a 20 or 30 phero mix.

Imagine the OD you could pull with that Watcher.

[DrSmellThis]

Yes. Anyhing we can to to help Phil Stone would be good for everyone.

[Watcher]

He actually does a great job at what he does though all that research and product testing has helped us immensley get better pheromones.

http://www.theentertainmentcompany.nl/divas/index-en.html (\"http://www.theentertainmentcompany.nl/divas/index-en.html\")

[Walter]

Yes Phil is a great guy. On par with Bruce even lol.
He makes great products and he used to even make custom products for me.
I just wish Erox would let him experiment and use some more of the pheromones so we would have a more rounded product.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, if we find that Erox\'s pheromones patented to affect the wearer can also attract the opposite, can\'t somebody patent it again for that purpose?!

[Naughtymonkey]

The main Erox patent is subject to opposition in the European Patent office. The Oral Hearing is scheduled for next march. The Opponent? The guy who makes PF.(or not now!)

NM

[**DONOTDELETE**]

!! Who\'s prosecuting the Erox patent? have you looked at their patents? They\'re really well written.

Hope you\'ll keep us posted.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Probably not much in the way of repeat business on erox products as it is, since many people don\'t care much for them and are gender reversed. Some pressure could be put on erox by boycotting them. If they aren\'t making any money in the retail pheromone business they might choose to abandon it, or to release more of the pheromones they are holding onto, or possibly licensing them to other companies who would put them to better use. I mean why support a company that you don\'t agree with when you don\'t have to, if you do you just keep reinforcing them to keep doing the same thing.

[Naughtymonkey]

Not me!! I know Erox\'s European attorney quite well. Haven\'t inspected the EP file, so have no idea how strong the opposition is. The patent has lapsed in various European Countries, but not in any of the big 4 (GB,DE,IT, FR).
NM
(on yes, if you haven\'t guessed, I\'m a patent attorney)

[Walter]

I forgot that Dr Dodd, PF\'s maker, claims that it has 20 some odd pheromones in it.
If that is true there may be some overlap in the pheros in the patents and the ones he has been using.
Or maybe he just wants to use them.
Who knows.
EDIT
I dug up an old post and it says \"20 distint pheromones\" and that Dr. Dodd is in court with Erox over the A-1 patent.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

NaughtyMonkey, they filed US first and then went PCT, right? So even if some of the Euro patents have expired, if the US parent is still in effect, would anyone originally filing in an EPO country still have to defer to the US parent and do a write-around? or does the priority issue cease to exist once the foreign-filed patent expires? Some of the Erox patents have complicated lineages - continuations of continuations - so if the first-filed of these continuations should be invalidated (or any of the continuations or divisionals, for that matter), would that also render invalid all its descendants? Because I so admire the patents themselves, could you PM me what US law firm wrote the Erox patents? I could order a file wrapper but hate to spend the money if I can get the info for free. If, god forbid, I should find myself looking for a job, I\'d like to know where such nice work is being produced.Thanks! So cool you\'re in IP.

[Naughtymonkey]

FTR

The US patent numbers are 5,278,141 and 5,272,134, firm is an outfit called Morrison &amp; Foerster . The EP number is 562843, opposed by Kiotech. Dr. Dodd has apparently pulled out of the human pheromone market and his company kiotech is in the business of ...................fish bait, yes apparently he noticed that ovulating women catch more fish when fishing (and I am not kidding you!) - he has a number of patent filings himself. So its possible he is just trying to restrict the scope of Erox\'s patent to enable him to market his fish bait. http://www.cefas.co.uk/news/news250501.htm. (\"http://www.cefas.co.uk/news/news250501.htm.\")

When I\'m back in the office I\'ll try and see what more I can find out. FTR, be careful around fish tanks!
NM

[Naughtymonkey]

Kiotech\'s PCT application abstract:

The invention provides compositions formulated to attract fish, comprising at least one human female pheromone such as trimethylamine, pyrroline and salts thereof, steroids of the androstene family such as 5-alpha-androst-16-en-3- alpha -ol, heterocyclic compounds such as indole and skatole and alkanoic acid compounds such as 4-methyloctanoic acid. Compositions can be formulated as liquids for direct application to bait, hooks or flies. Plastic bait can be manufactured including the composition. The composition can be used to attract fish by fishermen and anglers or to guide fish into paths to enable them to cross dams.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

MAN! See, they all said I was crazy but I *knew* that goldfish was flirting with me!

OMG, so ... if Dr.Dodd has thrown in the towel on human pheromones and has been reduced to fish bait, I guess we can assume that Erox rules supreme in the market and will continue to for the foreseeable future, since he\'s having to sue for even this far-flung a use.

Morrison &amp; Foerster\'s DC office is within walking distance of where I work now. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif I\'ll save this for my resume/interview file. Thanks!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish, it just occurred to me that they DO market their colognes as sexual attractants. They used to have an infomercial for Realm with this sultry voiced long-haired/legged blonde knockout in a red dress explaining about the discovery of the vmo, etc., and the power of Realm colognes.

Do you think it would do any good/not do any harm to bombard them with product requests?

[Naughtymonkey]

What I would like to know is how he found this out - \"excuse me Madam, I couldn\'t help but notice you have caught a rather nice salmon. Are you ovulating?\" Monty Python couldn\'t come up with better...............

I am not aware Erox are actually suing kiotech. Kiotech are simply opposing the grant of the patent to restrict its scope. As far as Erox\'s US patents are concerned, the problem with US patents are that when granted they have a presumption of validity and can only be revoked in court on the basis of \"clear and compelling\" evidence (being the standard of proof needed). Unfortunately, the US system has no effective means more knocking out granted patents - a permanent bane of my working life. I have had a conversation with Bruce about things but for obvious reasons won\'t repeat that here.

NM

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Further evidence that p*ssy rules the world...fish will cross dams for it! Wonder if it\'s only male fish. And yeah, I\'d give anything to know how he find that out!

The quickest, cheapest way I know to litigate a patent matter across country lines is through the ITC, no? Because the time limit is restricted. Although even the ITC litigation I\'ve been involved with has been billed at 5 million for one case and that wasn\'t considered excessive (my eyes popped when I edited the bill). But otherwise you\'ll just bleed out of money in civil court.

[Naughtymonkey]

What will be worth doing is checking that the maintenance fees have been paid to keep their US patents in force. Also its possible that prior art has come up in the European Proceedings that knocks out the US patent, if you went to court. As you say, in the US, its money that talks - Without giving anything away, we have just spent $15million on some patent litigation (and lost), not the sort of money I should think Bruce has lying around the place!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'ll check, but there\'s no way they\'ve missed a maintenance fee by acccident -- that\'s malpractice actionable on the face of it and a firm like M&amp;F wouldn\'t make that kind of mistake - and the way Erox has those patents all convoluted into each other with continuations of continuations of continuations, I read as little more than a strategy to extend term life. And their prior art disclosed is extensive. The patent work is really beautiful, I think.

I\'ll look when I go to work on Monday.

Yeah. Mum should be the word about the stuff we\'re using. I was wrong to shoot off my mouth before doing any research. Thanks, Irish.

Thanks NM for all the info.

[Watcher]

There are other players in the pheromone market.

Being PI makers, the makers of attraction and andro 4.2 and phil stone and james kohl and many others. The research is going strong and im sure this forum is having a major impact on a lot of parties therefore accidental skirmishes are sure to happen, if we keep pushing those compounds we can get our hands on legally (androsteRONE is not patented as phil stone was using it - james kohl was going to but those two work together quite closley and there is room in the market for both) also both suppliers and contributors via bruce or directly straight into the pheromone forum. Ie SOE vs AE.

Erox is useless with no real pheromone products and im sure i could have a major OD with 20 or 30 pheromone compounds that would be great. But without legal clearence i doubt getting ones hands on the information first and then the compounds second is going to be hard therefore we push Rone nol and none a1 and couplins and have fun with those for NOW ???

http://www.theentertainmentcompany.nl/divas/index-en.html (\"http://www.theentertainmentcompany.nl/divas/index-en.html\")

[Teak]

Just to add something...back in April, I asked LaCroy if they had any plans to release new products with other pheros, other than -none, suggesting the likes of using -nol, -rone, a1, etc. The reply I got basically said they already use 3 different pheros in their products, 2 of which target the VNO senses, which are supposedly unique to most other competing brands. They didn\'t state what 3 different pheros they use, of course.

[Watcher]

Most other competing brands - ok so what do the other competing brands use that target the VNO and actually disclose. If you look at the competing brands you may find some answers.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, if competing brands are anything but Erox, and Erox has two pheros that target the VNO...

[Watcher]

Then what do the competing brands have in it that contain pheros that target the VNO - think realm etc here.

[xvs]

This article has been posted before, I believe, but it\'s still interesting reading:

http://www.naturalattraction.com/NEW/s/6.html (\"http://www.naturalattraction.com/NEW/s/6.html\")

Note that androstenone does NOT have a particular affinity for the VNO, yet many people here find it to be quite effective.

So VNO affinity may not be the be-all and end-all that some have said it is.

[Irish]

I dunno. I just look at all this from a consumer viewpoint, and my interest is only in continuing to get as many pheros as possible. It may sound silly, but pheros are really a big part of my life now, and I\'d hate to lose out on my supply.

As I see the marketplace, we have a very few suppliers. The one supplier holding all the legal cards (EROX) is unfortunately not providing the products we want. Nor do I think they will in the future. We are saved by the other suppliers filling in the niche. We have apparently lost one of those suppliers (Kiotech) after they tangled with EROX. I don\'t know the legal details of that, nor do I care, since I can\'t do anything about it. All I know is we have one less product (PF), which is a pity because Dodd was a pioneer and has some scientific credibility. Whatever we were getting in PF is lost to us now…hope everyone stocked up (I have my two little bottles!).

This is a weird little niche market, so the normal consumer/provider rules don\'t necessarily apply. Erox has shown the ability to knock one of our suppliers out of the market place. But Erox also doesn\'t seem all that interested in our business - which is good in this case since I don\'t think they will ever provide the products I want anyway. I think it\'s a case of letting the giant alone to tend what interests him (pharmaceuticals) .. cause when he gets bugged he seems to turn around and smash someone I care about.

All the legal details about the patents and what could done is irrelevant unless someone is really going into the business and trying to expand the marketplace. If not, its all just talk, and talk that might be counterproductive in my paranoid opinion. All I know is PF had to close down, and I don\'t want to lose any more options.

[Whitehall]

That bunch of lawyers - \"Morrison &amp; Foerster\" - is known in the trade as MoFo. They\'re one of the biggest intellectual property law firms in the world.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sorry, Irish. It\'s so rare I get to talk shop, I got carried away.

[Tom]

I read that:
J. Le Magnen, French scientist, found that exaltolide on man body can attract women sexually.
and also perfume producer using musky oil

And on May and October the serotonin hormone is very high on brain, this hormone reduce/block the sexual reactions.

[Naughtymonkey]

Irish

What a curious post. I never knew pheros could actually mean that much to someone! I was just kicking around some of the bigger issues with FTR. Can\'t see how it could be counterproductive. Believe me I know what to post when it comes to IPR and what not to! I think Kiotech simply decided to change businness direction rather than any fight with Erox, unless anyone else knows any different?

[Irish]

I\'m probably too paranoid. Not commenting on anyone\'s post - just the general topic of this thread.

The original subject of this thread surfaces periodically - a demand for the manufacturers to reveal their \'secret\' phero ingredients. I can think of a couple of reasons why they might want to keep their ingredients secret, can\'t you? PF never listed theirs either to my knowledge. My point being, why should we alarm Erox by drawing attention to producers using secret ingredients? Erox seems able to use legal muscle to protect their patents, and the result seems to be fewer products for us to use. I\'m no legal eagle, but I know when something disappears from the market.

Yes, life would go on if Erox reduced the market to nol and none. We could always get those from the pig-breeder suppliers (BoarMate anyone?). We could spice that up with Realm. I just want to keep other options open if possible. And I don\'t want to do Erox\'s dirty work for them.

[Watcher]

An idea to boost realm ourselves.

Chem set rone nol and none a1 + EW
Add that to realm and you got a powerful mix without the need for legal battles or anything.

The subject comes up every now and then when we try to push ahead with discussions. Erox really arent interested in pheromones either. The legal muscle usage is annoying at best as they take on anyone infringing legal rights.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Erox are not interested in \"phero\'s\" , what they are interested in is \"cornering\" the market on any \"olifactant\" that causes physiological change. The cheeky buggers have even tried to patent androstenone and androstenol, they are attempting to patent the \"idea\" of using nasal delivery of \"substances\" to cause \"physiological\" change, and if they succeed they will stop \"any\" use of the olifactory system in this respect. They represent the greatest threat to phero users and should be treated with contempt. Once they identify a substance they patent its use in everything from lamp oil to carpet cleaner. If it was down to me I\'d shoot the basts for being \"anti social capitalist scum\". They are the bad name of science and should be shot.

PF is a great product, and it\'s a shame that its gone down the tubes. NPA in comparison is an amatuer product, and not nearly as refined, like the difference between beer and a good wine...

Boomshankah!

[DrSmellThis]

Well said.

[Naughtymonkey]

Oh good grief. A little bit of knowledge and all that..........

[**DONOTDELETE**]

mr monkey

Go back to eating banana\'s. If you want to argue a point, fine,but comments like that ...well they speak for themselves. Read my previous posts before making sweeping judgements.

i\'ll be lurking, but well this forum has gone downhill in my humble opinion..

[tounge]

This was a very interesting thread

that should IMHO be bumped up. Try to ignore the mindless thread hijacking by a couple of numnuts early in the

thread and pay particular attention to post # 12 by Bruce.