Anyone tried a 5 phero mix. Results here.

[Watcher]

Ok the ultimate mix Arone Anol Anone a1 (androstadinenone) and couplins ie PCC or EW into a mix and what are the effects. Anyone with lots of money could try this it deserves its own thread. Now anyone tried this the chem sets from stone labs a1 from stone labs and of course either the PCC or EW.

Im totally unsure of ratios of amounts but suggestions would be helpful as i may purchase everything at some point and try it out myself. Lets discuss everyone.

www.anitadoth.com (\"http://www.anitadoth.com\")

[DrSmellThis]

Yes. That\'s all I do. I also use LaCroy mones, musks, and perfuming pheros, which are very different. This is all very routine, and a very different approach from that of most forum contributors.

My current fave mix, for the \"basic 5\", starts with my Fibonacci formula:

3A1,5rone,8nol,13none.

To that I add 1 drop of EW 700:1 dilute -- that\'s one drop EW per full chem set alcohol bottle. I\'m going for a VNO effect with the A1 and cops. Then I dilute the whole mix 2:1 with whatever.

The EW part is too new to evaluate, but the rest works great, with no a1 hangover. Proven formula for me.
If I use Edge with it, I simply swap places with A1 and -rone, to address OD risk, or add 1 drop chem set A1 on my back. I have noticed fewer -none OD effects in the field overall, presumably as the A1 takes the edge off (no pun intended) the -none scariness. With edge that\'s 6 pheros plus the 7 in EW = 13 pheros. Some of those in EW may be unisex (for sure indole).

We\'re starting to approach a primitive \"human musk\", our ultimate goal. (I wish Erox would cooperate, as they are holding us back. If LaCroy and Stone are listening please release a miscellaneous phero mix, similar to a unisex or male EW!)

Add 5mg DHEA, tribulus; and, essential oils or a top-end french or italian cologne, and you\'re not easily stopped. I won\'t rant & rave, but I do strongly encourage others to try. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[BassMan]

My fav:

6 none : 3 A1 : 3 nol/COPS : 1 rone

using
PI/m for none
chem set A1
PI/w for nol/COPS
chem set rone

various decent colognes for cover, diluted 3:1 to 4:1, depending on the cologne. currently LeMale at 4:1.

the mix is diluted with 75% EtOH to a none concentration of 0.0125mg/ml. I have it in 60ml spray bottle as a body spray. The various PIs don\'t mix completely, it\'s a cloudy suspension. Shake well before using.

[Watcher]

Those results are encouraging guys what about actual hits etc. Do you get good results and is anyone else out there trying similar formulas, bassmans mix sounds good as does drsmellthis as well so is anyone else trying these types of mixes. Trust me folks this should really work quite well so jump on board and post youre ideas etc.

[BassMan]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

Those results are encouraging guys what about actual hits etc.

<hr></blockquote>I stopped looking for \"hits\" about the time I convinced myself this stuff works.

I wear that 5 phero body spray every day as deodorant. 0.33 ml (2 sprays from a sprayer that delivers 6 sprays per ml) under each pit. I wear other things above it, but having this on definately enhances whatever else I\'m wearing.

My goal in wearing pheros is to be surrounded by happy, playful people who are feeling a little sexy. The definitions of \"happy\", \"playful\", and \"a _little_ sexy\" change depending on my environment; as a result, the \"outer\" pheros may be anything from a couple of squirts of 1 none : .544 nol (my magic work formula, remember?) to 3:4 Edge / Le Male - exceptional if I\'m around \"disinhibited\" females. It all works, it just all works differently.

[Watcher]

Ok i dont look for hits after 5 years but you get that loosened up flirtatous cant help myself i feel so sexy and you are so sexy sort of response. Would you say its better than say just 1 or 2 pheros types at once. Being convinced ages ago of its success would you recommened that people put together a 5 phero mix. Plus any new compounds that come to our attention and are able to be marketed and sold on love-scent.

[oscar]

Watcher,

I\'m going to be testing a new 5-way tonight. You don\'t want to mix it up in the quantities I\'ve got. (I forgot the cardinal rule of not throwing good pheros after bad, and ended up with @20mL. of marginally useful product. BEFORE adding the RM, that is.)

I took some of the SOE with None, A1, and EW mix that I posted on the EW thread and mixed it with an equal portion of RM and it seems pretty good.

An approximation of the recipe would be:

2mL. of RM (N)
2mL. of SOE (L,R)
@ 5 drops of A1 (D)
1 drop of .01 EW (C)

I had put some chem-set None into the SOE originally, as that\'s how this started, but since RM became an ingredient, the extra None became superfluous. No use adding anything that might detract from the fragranced products\' ability to cover the EW.

Smells quite decent. Jury\'s still out on effectiveness.
If I\'m not back on the board in the next six hours or so, that could mean that the mix works.

Oscar /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[Watcher]

Sounds interesting hope the jury is right on effectiveness - this is only a new thread so to begin with discussion will be light. However EW or PCC could prove to be quite interesting in an overall mix. I guess the extra none being superfluous is a non-event. Now one thing that i might change to the overal mix would be as follows.

2ml SOE
2ml RM
@ 4 drop of a1
1 drop of 0.1EW
8 drops of rone from the chem set Arone.
1 drop of NPA for whatever secret ingredients it possess (if its not a1 and couplins what is it?)

[DrSmellThis]

Since bodies employ scads of pheros, since science has not identified a magic \"get laid\" phero bullet; since pheros seem to work in harmony, and since the pilot studies suggest as much; I have never doubted that multipherous approachs are superior to monopherous ones. I think the reliance on -none is force of habit from the PI days, as multipheromonology is very new. Realistically, we know more about this, in a \"big picture\" way, than the professional scientists, who are lagging a bit. We are the practitioners.

The Himilayan deer and civet cat use scads of pheros to get laid. Musk is what gets animals laid in the real world, not single pheros. Musks are extremely complex.

If I don\'t know how to mix pheros, I won\'t have success. There\'s the rub. Fortunately I have a method (not the only. I mentioned another recently.) for obtaining natural smelling phero mixes (primitive human musk approximations), as detailed above. When mixed with sandalwood or amber, the smell is distinctly sexual. Try it. -None alone doesn\'t smell like sex.

The formula is not perfect, and I am unfortunately a perfectionist. But due to the corporate mentality, we do not have many compounds at our disposal that would probably allow us to construct a passable human musk. I\'d be working totally feverishly on it if we did. I think the fibonacci formula works for now. At least the proportions are distinctly organic, and organic smelling. That means more than what the researchers are saying right now, to a practitioner like me.

I am having a lot of sex right now, with a woman much younger than me. She often asks me what she can do to please me. (the last time I suprised her by reeling off an encyclopaedic list of kinky and/or nasty fantasies.) I was wearing a Fibonacci mix when I met her. I don\'t know if it was the pheros. However, she has an extremely sensitive sense of smell (she is partially blind), and volunteered that my mix \"smells like sex,\" before she knew what it was. She smelled it out of a mixing spoon, not on my horny, festering, greasy body.

In short, the goal of pheroscience, from my point of view, is to construct a human musk, with an emphasis on sexuality. If it smells like my ass, earwax, armpits or pelvic region, I start to believe I\'m onto something. The conscious, sensuous mind gets to play, too, and can be an excellent source of information.

[EXIT63]

Doc, You\'re doing a helluva job. Keep up the good work.

[BassMan]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

My current fave mix, for the \"basic 5\", starts with my Fibonacci formula:

3A1,5rone,8nol,13none.

<hr></blockquote>I\'m game to try your mix, Doc. You said you use LaCroy none? Would that mean NPA for the none and Stone Labs chem set stuff for the rest? Or have you used Stone none, too?

[DrSmellThis]

No I use LaCroy in addition to the other formula, which is a complete entity unto itself, made of Stone.

I just add A1 sauce if I do.

[BassMan]

Thanks. Gonna try it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hi All,

I\'ve been playing with a mix of this type. I have had some initial success, but I have only been using it for a couple of days.

The Theory:

1. nol seems to break down on me rather quickly. For example, If I apply SOE, I can start to smell and feel the none a few hours later. So.. part of the theory behind this mix is to up the nol and decrease the none. The idea is to grab someone while in nol mode and as the evening progresses the none starts to show up. Since I\'m a total newbie this may be complete nonsense, but that\'s the idea.

2. I wanted to take advantage of the \"Secret Ingredients\" in NPA and TE. So I\'m using them in combination to form the none part of the mix.

The Mix:

TE(1):NPA(1):NOL(4):RONE(1):PCC(1) The nol and rone came from the chem set (even though I didn\'t know it was rone at the time).

I mixed this in an atomizer at 1:3 with Cool Water. One spray to upper chest and one spray across the back of the shoulders.



The Results:



Day 1:

My motorcycle was in the shop and I took a taxi to pick it up. The taxi driver was a women about 28 or so. She was extremely talkative and actually reached into the back seat and touched my leg a couple of times during the ride. I got her number.

I went into the shop to pick up my bike and was greeted and touched by three people (one female, two male) on my way to the service counter.

I picked up the bike and went to meet a friend for dinner. At the restaurant, the hostess was talking a mile a minute and put her hand on my shoulder while walking to the table. The waitress touched me all through the meal. I got the hostess\'s number (mid 20s).

It would appear at first glance this is a \"Touchy Feely\" mix.

Day 2:

Same deal. Lots of physical contact all day long. two phone numbers( 23 and mid 20s).

Other Stuff:

I find the dropper thing rather tedious, so I use a 10ml graduated cylinder and a 5ml serological pipet for mixing.

Plans:

I\'m thinking about doubling the amount of TE and adding A1.

Later,
-S

[Watcher]

For it to be a proper 5 phero mix it needs a1. But it sounds as if we are on to something. The inital success is good - the thing with nol breaking down into a couple of other compound is correct get em with nol then none later in the evening. Foreplay first then sex nol-none. The touchy feeling thing is good all you need is a quite moment and a little touchy feely back and you got sex going.

The mixing material also sounds like a good idea plus the cool water of course.

www.divasofdance.com (\"http://www.divasofdance.com\")

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey Thanks,

I have A1 on the way. I\'ll post my results after I have the chance to test it out.

-S

[Watcher]

Ok just another thing to mention is that a1 acts as a anti PMS agent. It makes female moods better.

So the compounds are as follows

Anone - sexual response, aggression from other males
Anol - Giggle laughter response chatiness etc
Arone - Submission in the target, some guys react negative, also signafies hextrosexuality higher rone levels more likley to be straight
A1 - PMS counter agent, calms PMS women down.
Couplins - signafy female sexual fertility also when worn by men can give off signals that increase female competition when they \"feel\" that this is a good guy to sleep with if another woman has slept with him.

[DrSmellThis]

Incidently, I should mention another variation of my formula involves switching places between -nol and -none. This is the next one I\'m trying, especially when I use the LaCroy to enhance it. The Fibonacci approach is very flexible.

This is more compatible with the latter method and the -nol breakdown phenomenon.

[MadMaxx]

I don\'t have A1. That stuff is really pricey isn\'t it?
However, on a daily basis I am using -nol, -none, -rone, and copulins.
What I notice with this combination is no aggression from guys; in fact guys don\'t seem to want to have anything to do with me. Women seem much more comfortable when around me. This is really noticeable. Most women are not overly chatty, but some are. I had a waitress the other day that I couldn\'t keep away from my table, even though she wasn\'t working my table. Since I added the copulins, things happen that weren\'t happening before. Some women\'s heads will snap up from their books or whatever they are doing when I walk by in a cafe. This is kind of cool, and it wasn\'t happening when I was using just -none and -nol.

[MadMaxx]

Can someone please point me in the right direction to get a hold of A1. I am liking my result with 4 pheros, so I want to add the fifth.

[xvs]

http://www.love-scent.com/kits/extra/order.html (\"http://www.love-scent.com/kits/extra/order.html\")

[MadMaxx]

XVS, thanks for the address. I can\'t figure out how to get to that page from the Love Scent Home Page. Any A1 users, do you think it is worth the money to try it? I use 4 pheros but from what I\'ve read I don\'t know whether the A1 would give me much more advantage. The EW seems to do a damn good job of making the women more comfortable. As for PMS women, I don\'t know whether needing to calm them down is a big issue in my life at the moment.

[DrSmellThis]

A1 seems to keep the bitch factor down, which can be a problem with -none. It might modulate some of the negative effects of none, and add to intimacy and comfort. It is in sweat. Still, little is known. A couple studies suggest it helps maintain a woman\'s positive mood over time. Most intersting to me are the findings that emotion-processing areas of the brain in women are stimulated, and the confirmation that A1 detracts from a man\'s mood.

http://social-sciences.uchicago.edu/ssdnews/menarefrom.html]</a>
\"]http://=www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/01/010725.chemosignals.shtml (\"http://social-sciences.uchicago.edu/ssdnews/menarefrom.html>)

(Sorry, but I\'m having trouble getting the links to work.)

In my current formula, it occupies the smallest spot. It\'s worth it for me, but I\'m a scientist.

JVK, can you add anything here?

[MadMaxx]

Thanks for the feedback. It sound interesting, but it sounds like it would be more worthwhile if I were constantly having to get along with bitchy women, or had a significant other with chronic PMS.
Then again, maybe it could iimprove a guy\'s success even when trying to meet women for the first time, assuming some of these potential women were -none sensitive, or crabby to begin with.

[DrSmellThis]

bump.

[xvs]

In normal male human sweat, A1 is found in a much higher concentration than -none... I think it\'s something like 4:1.

I can\'t find the article with the ratios for some reason... JVK?

[DrSmellThis]

Then there must be very little -none, as guys would be depressed all the time.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, we must be applying way more A-1 (and other pheros) than contained on the human body. The exact ratio is not agreed upon, but A-1 is the most prominent androgen in human male sweat, ahead of -none. The Realm patents implied that RFW contains no more than 25 mug/ml A-1, yet males still say they get depressed from that amount. If one or two sprays of 25 mug/ml solution of A-1 is more A-1 than contained on the human body, than some of us must be applying at least 20-100 times the amount of -none.

[xvs]

This is why things like \"Fibonacci formulas\" make no sense to me.

I think it is more reasonable to start with the ratios that are known to exist in human sweat, and work from there.

Picking some arbitrary ratios for arbitrary substances seems unlikely to work.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s not arbitrary. It\'s a value based on a principle aesthetic found in nature. I think the idea of it is to enhance rather than mimic.But your way sounds perfectly reasonable, too.

[DrSmellThis]

XVS, In more than one previous post, I stated why Fibonacci ratios for these particular substances are not at all arbitrary -- quite the opposite. They do correspond roughly with natural ratios in/on the human body. Where were you?

I came to this belief after corresponding with Stone Labs about this, before I ever talked about Fibonacci ratios in the forum.

[DrSmellThis]

Very articulate, FTR.
/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[xvs]

It\'s arbitrary in that there\'s no reason to think it has any relationship to actual values.

For example, if I knew that to make a cake, one needed flour, sugar, butter and yeast, would it make sense to decide to use a ratio of 1:1:2:3 (the start of the Fibonacci series) as follows:

1 cup of flour
1 cup of sugar
2 cups of butter
3 cups of yeast

I don\'t think so. But that\'s precisely what\'s being done with this series... without knowledge of the proper ratios, picking arbitrary substances to assign to a ratio is just that: arbitrary. The ratio may or may not be applicable in any particular circumstance, and again the items picked to appear in different places in the ratio may or may not be applicable even if the ratio is correct.

Now maybe the Fibonacci series could work for baking a cake (though if it did, I think that would be a coincidence more than anything) if you picked the right part of the series and assigned the right substances. For example:

1:2:3:5

1 tablespoon of yeast
2 tablespoons of butter
3 tablespoons of sugar
5 tablespoons of flour

That might produce some kind of cake... but what kind? Would it be the best cake for any particular purpose? It actually still sounds like a rather yeasty sweet bread, and the fact that it would work at all is only because we knew in advance that yeast should be the smallest quantity, etc.

I think this Fibonacci mixing, numerologically appealing as it may be, isn\'t really a reasonable way to come up with a formula that is likely to work. It reminds me more of alchemy than science, and while alchemy is romantic, it never did find the Philosophers\' Stone.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Bravo, xvs, I think that was very well done. I think yours is an entirely valid approach, or at least I don\'t see anything wrong with your reasoning. You hit the crux of it though, speaking of alchemy and romance. It stands to reason that if nature loves the fibonacci series (and she must, because she creates so many things according to that plan that it must be a favorite) then use of that series may also yield a creation favorable to nature - in the abstract - which may then be applied to enhance human scent or attractiveness, in a sort of spirit of oneness way. It\'s an intuitive approach that aims toward an aesthetic. It\'s just a different value system. Which apparently is effective; it seems widely employed with good success.

[DrSmellThis]

Again, all points I\'ve addressed before.

The sequence I proposed is the sequence for men: none to nol to rone, and is based on what is known so far biologically, ratios and all. I moved the A1 down because it had to be done, \"medically,\" despite being the most biologically prominent, and I wanted to keep the aesthetic appeal while modulating the -none effects. I am working within a general structure provided by nature, not \"numerology.\" I did not invent this.
The standardized Stone Lab formulas are such that you are quite possibly not mixing apples and oranges (or flour and yeast), as you seem to imply.

As a psychologist/amateur perfumer, or scientist/artist, I have sought an approach with both scientific and aesthetic elements. I believe a combined approach is superior to a purely biological approach. For example, the formula for EW could perhaps have turned out lot better (and no doubt will, when Stone has time to refine the test version) had the aesthetics of a woman\'s sexual smell been considered in addition to the pheroscience, which is still at relative Kindergarten level.

I am thus far reasonably satisfied that this approach is one way of helping the aesthetics turn out better than \"random\" or \"arbitrary\" approaches. I\'m sure I will experiment with other aesthetic approaches (e.g., based on other natural ratios such as 5/4, which is also in the pherobiology ballpark.). I am open to any aesthetic contributions you might end up making, even though you seem more interested in science than aesthetics.

But even with a strictly scientific approach, a good scientist carries the burden of proposing something that works better, not just criticizing. Whether or not my formula represents a decent first shot at a mixing principle depends on what the actual natural ratios are (the empirical data), and how they\'re calculated.

What are they, xvs? How do you calculate them?

In scientific terms, the question of ratios is an empirical question, and requires an empirical answer. Dissertations about cakes do not pass muster in this regard.

I have started with what is known and moved on from there, rather than stay in some self-made \"scientific prison\", afraid to venture beyond the edges. The tail will never wag the dog, and science will never successfully recreate Man in its own image.

[upsidedown]

DrSmellThis,

Can you explain in more detail your comment \"I moved the A1 down because it had to be done, \"medically,\"?

If it was addressed in a previous post, you can just give me the thread name and I\'ll find it. However, I think I\'ve read most posts on here in the past 3 months, and I don\'t recall seeing any rationale on this addressed before.

Thanks.

[xvs]

I can\'t find the reference, but here are the proportions that were published as having been measured in apocrine sweat:

Androstenone................0.8
Androstadienone............5
Androstenol...................1

I\'m not sure about the age etc. of the males whose sweat was analyzed, but this at least is a starting point.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think Dr. Smell This meant that so much A-1 would cause him to be depressed. Well, in the Realm patents, I once read that the total amount of androgens on the human body was about 700 ng. That\'s less than 1 mug or 0.001 mg. Remember, this is TOTAL androgens (A-1, -none, -nol, etc.). If you want to start from this figure, your $80 supply of A-1 will last &gt;50 years. Also, I don\'t think these androgens turn over every day. I still wonder how much pheros build up on the body if you apply 0.02 mg every day.

[CptKipling]

Yes but we want to produce an ultra dominant male sig., which would have higher -none anyway.

A better way would be to find out the raitos of a good sig., not the average male.

[upsidedown]

I hear a lot of people talking about too much A1 making them depressed, burt I have yet to experience this. It doesn\'t make me depressed at all......it doesn\'t seem to effect me in any way Perhaps I\'m not wearing enough to cause problems but I doubt it.

So how much A1 does it take for you guys to start experiencing depressing effects from it?

[DrSmellThis]

If I go any higher than the first formula I mentioned above, I start to get negative A1 effects. I\'m still OK if A1 is the third highest of 4. Usually I use the first formula and then som Edge + 1 drop A1 on my back. I\'m fine with that.

I\'m still looking for more information on ratios. Sometimes the internet sux.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

isn\'t anybody else wondering why xvs is putting yeast in his cake? Apparently not very many cooks here. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Seriously, though you probably could make a fairly serviceable cake with fibonacci ratios, assuming you only employed them for the major components of the cake. Just like the doctor is positing that it might be possible to make a serviceable mix using fibonacci for the major components. Your inclusion of yeast in your speculation makes an interesting point, but is as counterintuitive and un-necessary as suggesting that since we know that salt is a component of sweat that we should use lots of it in making our phero mixes. Yes, some leavening agent is required in a cake, but is not a *major* ingredient.

try this recipe:
http://cake.allrecipes.com/AZ/ButterCake.asp (\"http://cake.allrecipes.com/AZ/ButterCake.asp\")
it\'s the first one I found searching the web. it includes:
.5 cup butter
1 cup sugar
1.5 cups flour
hmm.... a fibonacci sequence of 1, 2, 3.... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
My guess is this is not an isolated example, and that many fibonacci combination of the three key ingridients will yield a completely pleasing cake....but I leave the chasing down of additional recipes as an exercise for the reader.....

By the way, I\'m not sure that the goal is to mimic the ratios found apocrine sweat. For me at least, the goal is to get the most effective mix. The sound of crickets chirping is a natural musical construct that can be pleasant and relaxing. Man made music, which is an artificial construct, can be just as pleasing, and in some cases, more enjoyable than it\'s natural counterparts. So what if the phero mix isn\'t in the same proportions as the stuff you can scoop out of your armpit? If it works, it works....which is an argument for both points of view, since you\'re both getting results with your separate approaches.

[Gerund]

WTF? lol

[DrSmellThis]

Bump, for cryin\' out loud. Aren\'t people aware that the strongest potential for pheros lies in mixing all of them? Why not go for the best? Isn\'t your sex life important enough? Chem sets last. Chem set + A1 + NPA + EW = maximum weaponry. Why not save your money up? Who cares about scents? Great scents can come from freakin\' anywhere. No offense to anyone, but do people really think the scents are that outstanding? SOE is good, but there are many great musk colognes. Why not concentrate on the pheros? That is the unique offering of this site. The more we support raw pheros, the more they will introduce! Does anyone think our chances to get laid will improve that much by putting the same old -none in a strap, versus an old sock, powder, a hat, a diffuser, or a new pineapple/banana joy jelly? -- by mixing two -none colognes together and naming it after myself? SOE+Rogue+PPA+SPMO = BiteThis1. By worrying about which -none flavor to buy? Whatever. Dudes, PPA is -none in suntan lotion! Rogue Male is -none in a whatever cologne. I understand convenience for newbies, but we need to concentrate on taking it to a new level! -- not on combining the same 2-3 ideas over and over. Primal Instinct with ylang-ylang? Give me a break. It\'s -dirty -none with a girly scent added. It\'s for premature ejaculators. I\'m sure it works, but not for any reason other than it contains a -- suprise -- pheromone! It\'s the same chemical as in any other -none formula. Hello? Should I put it on my arm, my finger, or my eyelashes? Should I spray it over my nuts or under my nuts? Maybe I should masturbate with it, right here in front of the other premature ejaculators in the forum. If I combine 6 products with the exact same pheros, is it better than 5? Let\'s debate for a week or two. Where\'s my freakin\' Pabstie? Buuurp.

[EXIT63]

I believe you\'re right Doc. But I have no clue where to begin. The only thing I know how to mix Ketel 1 and OJ. (with a splash of seltzer).
Dilution, ha PLEASE. Jist get me some isopropyl, some everclear, and some veggie oil, and I\'ll be fine. For a flambe perhaps.

I don\'t even know what a friggin BASE NOTE is.

I\'ll just mix my IUD with a little pitchuulee and throw in 1/400th of one drop of essence of warthog and I\'ll have the MAGIC BULLET.

Perhaps you should compose the definitive chem-set mixing guide complete with proper instructions for every aspect of making your own combinations. Don\'t leave anything out. I for one and I\'m sure many others on the forum would be forever in your debt.

[EXIT63]

And while you\'re at it. Don\'t forget the appendix. Make sure its chock full of resources on where to find all that aged hippie, new age mumbo jumbo.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Damn, Doc. I think you went on a rant. Feel better? I know I do...

[EXIT63]

And the glossary. Don\'t forget the glossary. I need clear and concise definitions for everything.

[EXIT63]

And I want it on my desk by Monday morning.


Dammit Red, you\'ve interrupted my flow.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Leave Dr. Smell alone. He\'s been answering the same questions now for so long his head\'s about to explode, he can\'t help it.

(Not that I understand it any better than you do, Exit, no matter how many times it\'s explained...)

[Whitehall]

Dr. Smell,

You are basically correct and insightful in your critique.

I do think many here are exhausting the creative limits of pheromone arts and that innovative approaches hold the most promise for increased effectiveness and new applications. There are some room for improvements but the scope will be marginal - existing pheromone technology is maturing. There is too much juvenile posturing and angst going on and it gets tiresome. I will say that some notions for advancement, such as the spiked baby powder on the balls idea, are worthy of at least MY time in development although Red deserves the credit for the basic idea.

I will further support some of the chatter on the board as legitimate consumer product evaluations. RM vs. PPA vs. NPA are important issues since they are not particularly cheap items. I do welcome thoughtful experiences of others to guide me in my purchasing decisions. From some viewpoints that will appear mundane, much like a car magazine testing a Volvo vs. a Saab. It\'s not a big deal unless we\'re talking one\'s own money.

You concept of enhancing the complete pheromone signature using 5 or 6 different compounds IS the cutting edge. I see this effort as having high potential. However, your insistence on using the Fibonacci numbers for ratios smacks of crank science and diminishes your credibility. I will grant that you have to start somewhere in the absence of hard science or understood art.

I\'m looking forward to your SOBER response.

With greatest respect,

Whitehall

[MaxiMog]

WOW, there aren\'t many posts I enjoyed reading as much as this one. You definitely have got a point there. I feel kinda stupid for buying too many products some time ago all at once, while I\'d better have bought some chem sets and other \'\"raw materials\".

[DrSmellThis]

You understand many things, FTR.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks Whitehall. I respect your work in the forum quite a bit, so that\'s a nice compliment.

Of course, product comparison is just prudent consumerism.

And I have powder on my balls right now. Illustrative diagram:

OO
.....

By the way, I absolutely do not insist on using Fibonacci numbers. It is one approach. It happens to have been the most generally effective for me so far. Next month it may be different. And my understanding of our scientific and natural belief systems (from my own scientific and academic work), requires that most folks would find these ideas incredible at first. That could not diminish my enthusiasm, then. Although there is an element of intuition, I would be comfortable expressing these ideas SOBER to a panel of the greatest minds, scientists or critical thinkers out there. (I\'m not saying I\'m one of them, by the way. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif). It\'s all logical, scientific, and compatible with what\'s known -- even though \"it\" itself is in part a fun guess! So what?

By the way, if you were to study sacred geometry (I prefer to call it \"natural geometry\" rather than lace it unnecessarily with religion) in depth, I think you\'d find it a quite legitimate, if not amazing field. Cross-disciplinary applications are literally everwhere. It\'s a mundane fact to me that the same geometric, numeric and mathematical patterns are everywhere in nature, and in every field of study.

[DrSmellThis]

I\'d like to see us start reducing some of the gross uncertainty regarding these mixes, while immediately gaining an appreciation of their value for us.

So are we ready to try a pilot study? I\'d love people\'s feedback to see if we can we go any further. (I could ask Bruce whether we could negotiate a modest SPMO or SOE gel special as an incentive for participants /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif)

Method

Participants would make a batch of a reasonable 4 phero chem set mix, as follows: 13-none, 8-nol, 5-rone; 3A1. This would be diluted 2:1 in whatever you choose, to yield .5mg/ml total phero content. We then try it at four dabs, spread out wherever on the body. Over this we would apply whatever cover scents we felt smelled good on us.

Why this mix? This mainstream formula is likely safe and very effective. It is similar to our proven heroes, AE and P10, with a touch of A1. It\'s designed to get consistent sexual/romantic hits while minimizing target intimidation.

As a modification, If folks wanted to add 1 spray of edge or 1 dab of NPA on their bodies for icing on the cake, that\'d be cool, but participants would have to agree beforehand on a mix we could try for a little while. I always favor the icing on the cake approach, personally /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif, but I don\'t care.

Baseline phase:

First we would wear 4 dabs of the mix without EW, daily for a week, to establish a baseline sense of effectiveness for ourselves. At four dabs I\'m hoping we\'d see few OD\'s, as none is just over half the total content (I could be wrong, of course).

EW Phase:

Then we would try different amounts of EW vs. no EW at all, as EW is the biggest unknown.

The proper role of A1 is unclear, too, but less unclear. Few men can wear it in large quantities without adverse psychological reactions, a finding that is supported by professional research. So it appears the role should be small for now, as in the experimental mix.

I am suggesting we use A1 as above, just to tone down the \"target side effects\" for -none (fear, etc). That is a concentration that has given me no A1 hangover, whereas with just two more drops I can notice it slightly. On the other hand, I have absolutely noticed less -none target side effects since including it. Women generally have been acting fairly comfy these days, despite the fact I typically wear \"near OD levels\" of none.

So, in this phase, participants would put 1 drop of EW in the chemset alcohol bottle with whatever dilutant (that\'s approximately a 700:1 dilution, I think.). Participants could add a modest amount of essential oil mix to the EW mix to tone it down. Then we would apply 1 drop to ourselves, along with the other mix. At one drop spread between the pubic hair and forearms, it\'s consciously detectible but not offensive.

Results

Partcipants would agree to enter results both in a results poll, and by verbally reporting their experiences.

[DrSmellThis]

Well what\'y\'a know, I\'m now a phero dude!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey, we knew that. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Watcher]

It could be a very useful experiment. We all know that things work in mystical ways around here so why not.

[MadMaxx]

Dr, I basically like your idea, but I am a bit averse to buying the A1 and trying it. I am worried that I might be a prime candidate for being badly affected by it. This might not be a logical conclusion, but I am just guessing so because of how sensitive I am to -none. -None makes be totallly hostile, angry, grouchy, etc.
I have 4 of the necessary pheros, just not A1. I would try a 5 phero thing if someone hooked me up with a small sample of A1, but otherwise I don\'t know whether I can convince myself to fork out the money for it.
By the way, as far as EW goes, is it correct that you find 1 drop at 700:1 detectable? I can\'t imagine that. I use about 20 drops daily, with dilution of I don\'t know what, but supposedly much less than that. I put 3 large drops in 30ml of water. Somebody suggested that it might be about 300:1. Anyway, with that application rate it is definitely easily detectable right after putting it on, but after an hour or so, it is hard to say whether it is detectable or not. I use cover perfumes so it either blends really well with those fragrances or it isn\'t giving off much scent. Recently I have been putting several drops on my arm before sleeping, with nothing else. I can\'t detect anything when I wake up. Do you figure I have become \"immune\" to the smell? Can you imagine yourself not smelling anything if you applied as I have described?

[xvs]

After an hour, you will find that almost any odor becomes much less detectable.

The olfactory system adjusts that way, so that it isn\'t overpowered by any background odor.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Dr. Smell This, I like your idea, but if you really want to control the experiment, you should mix up the concoction yourself in and distribute little vials to your test subjects. Maybe, you can even charge a nominal $4 for two weeks of the test mix.

Better yet, you can do a blinded trial with several mixes and a placebo group! Just distribute out the mixes, which all contain the same cover scent, but with different pheros.

[DrSmellThis]

MadMax, It\'s definitely detectible on me for all day. I do use essential oils such as vetiver as fixatives in the mix, so maybe that makes it last longer. When I first tried it I diluted it to where I thought it was comparable to other scents I\'ve used.

You might do OK with A1. Somebody here uses A1 and -nol because they don\'t like -none, and likes it. I don\'t know.

Have you been laid with it? Met a hottie who was interested? Tell us more.

Maybe you can ask friends if they can smell it on you with different concentrations, starting small.
I\'m counting on you to give us all more information, as you\'ve been the most enthusiastic, however. Keep up the good work!

[DrSmellThis]

All good points! Thanks for the replies! What does everyone else think?

Truth, that might be a bit spendy for me. I\'ll be happy to do it right if Bruce, Phil or somebody else wants to fund research or hire me! For now, I\'m counting on folks that are interested in advancing their phero capabilities to the max, and willing/able to get the raw products. I have figured that eventually more people will want to get into it, and wondered if the timing is right. I know it\'s expensive. It took me a few months to get basic supplies together. But I do think it\'s worth it. A chem set is more economical. EW is free for now with a chem set, and multi-pheros seem to be the way to go unless you\'re mostly interested in convenience. We can advance our knowledge much, much faster by working together from time to time. I\'m not looking for rigorous science at this point, just for a \"quick and easy dip into a pool of info\". Then we\'ll know if further study is worth it.

I e-mailed Bruce about smaller portions of A1, and he replied, \"One of these days...\" He\'s been really busy. However, if enough of us are interested and e-mail him about it I bet he\'d be open to working with us! I know it would be more profitable for him that way. Maybe he can use the new atomizers Stone has purchased.

[SwingerMD]

Maxx,

I have A1 and haven\'t used it much since it affects me quite a bit plus haven\'t seen noticable results yet. It is bareable for me to have 2 drops (one on each wrist). If I apply it any closer it really starts to give me a headache. I\'m thinking of usinging it later in mixes when I am able to get the chem set. At the moment I\'m playing around with the new PPA and just whipped up my first batch of JB#1.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'d certainly be interested in a smaller portion of A1. The only thing putting me off at the moment is the price. I\'m sure if enough of us express interest, Bruce could do something, when he has the time.

[MadMaxx]

DrSmell, I have only asked a couple of people to smell me, or tell me what they think of my smell. I only like to ask close friends. For example, I don\'t want to ask all the women at my dance lessons. Somehow, I don\'t think it would be appropriate. Anyway, those I have asked just say that the scent smells nice. They make no comment on what they think they are smelling, and they think they are just smelling my perfume. So, I don\'t think anyone consciously detects anything other than the perfume I use for cover. This is despite the fact that as I said, I am using 20 drops of EW now, at the dilution rate I mentioned.
As for getting laid, no, not yet. I think I\'ve posted about reactions on an EW thread or somewhere. I\'ve had what I consider quite good hits at some of my dance lessons, and these particular women are definitely interested. However, several practical and cultural factors make progress slow with these women. Besides these good solid hits, what I notice most on a daily basis is that the women that serve me in a restaurant or coffee shop, smile big time with sparkly eyes and often look me right in the eyes that whole time the are serving me. I know these people are supposed to be friendly etc., but something is definitely different. If you want more details of the nature of my good hits, please search for my other posts.

[MadMaxx]

XVS, thanks for that thought. That would make sense. I guess that is why some days people will tell me my perfume smells great, and I am surprised because it is afternoon already and I am almost unaware of it.

[CptKipling]

Maybe Bruce could sell smaller chem set samples of each, on a no refund basis. Really good idea though, this is how real progress is made.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Dr. Smell This, you wouldn\'t be losing money if you charge people a nominal fee for the mix samples. So many of us buy tons of pheros to only test out a small sample of each one before moving on. It\'d make sense to have one person mix up small batches for a 1-2 week test. Plus, this insures that people are using the same mix, if you\'re serious about a study.

I just checked my unopened bottle of EW. I had sealed the bottle into two zip lock bags when I received it, but the scent appears to have gone through! Now, it\'s in four zip lock bags, but I don\'t know if it\'s enough. Any advice?

[BassMan]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

I just checked my unopened bottle of EW. I had sealed the bottle into two zip lock bags when I received it, but the scent appears to have gone through! Now, it\'s in four zip lock bags, but I don\'t know if it\'s enough. Any advice?

<hr></blockquote>Get one of those canning jars with the snap down lid and the rubber ring around the top. It will seal in just about anything.

[DrSmellThis]

Let\'s buy those chem sets, oh brave adventurers!

[Whitehall]

I think our discussion as to Fibonacci numbers really rolls up to a big question that I\'ve always asked:

Is mathematics really \"absolute truth\" or rather a particularly pragmatic branch of psychology?

I\'ve always suspected that math is just the sharpening of our mental tool chest, fundamentally a study of neurons and how they are organized to understand the world. We see Fibonacci numbers in so many places because our mind is hardwired to recognize that series. Now you\'ve brought religon into it too! As I\'ve said before, if it works to produce that lady-killer mix, I\'ll laud it (and you) to High Heaven.

I\'d love to take part in your experiment but I too have been reluctant to spend the $180 for a chem set plus A-1. A trial size offer could make me a participant although I will allow that my social life in terms of meeting lot\'s of new people regularly is not a good test.

[Whitehall]

I second the recommendation for using canning type jars. I\'ve got a small one with the metal clamping rig and a rubber seal and it holds the aromas of EW in quite well.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Whitehall, that\'s an absolutely delightful question. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[DrSmellThis]

I think you were onto something, Whitehall.

Mathematics has to do with mind as a part of nature, and in relation to it -- with the fact that we experience ourselves as \"one individual\" and things as \"one thing and not another\", such that the possibility of aggregating and counting them is implied as a potential. In nature things seem to have beginnings and ends, both temporally and conceptually.

All this is nature\'s \"singularism.\"

Mind, being so dependent on neurons, is firmly based in nature. But it can also imagine phenomena that appear nowhere in nature except the mind. Mind has a foggy idea of absolute truth, but an idea nonetheless, and math is a part of that idea. Absolute truth is an idea itself. As such it is rooted in psychology and neurons.

Math, then, also deals with imaginary numbers, and with numbers like pi that express the possibility of things that are not single things at all -- in that they would be things the boundaries of which cannot be defined and articulated but only looked toward. The golden mean, which deals with infinity, is another example. In geometry, the circle touches on infinity.

Fibonacci and phi, as approximations of the golden mean, are a sort of pragmatism then. They\'re tips of the hat to nature\'s singularism. They take the golden mean, which is abstract, idea-like, and comes from the geometry of the circle; and translate it roughly into finite numbers in a series -- to the counting of things that are single things, such as drops of something.

The world of single things is the world of nature, which approximates ideals and reaches toward them but never reaches them, as when humans try to articulate pi.

Nature is, itself, a sort of pragmatism. It seems to have a mind containing ideals it points toward but never reaches (like peace in the MIddle East?). Yet in this \"natural project\" is a beauty, dignity and perfection of it\'s own. The mind sees this. It all comes back full \"circle.\"

So it is not suprising that the Fibronacci series is present everywhere in nature\'s structure, from plants to human bodies, to DrSmellThis\'s perfumes.

But is mind bounded, contained, and potentially accounted for, by neurons? Can psychology be reduced to neurology?

That is the subject matter for another post. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Dr. SmellThis, this kind of conversation is much more arousing than that NLP stuff.

Mmmm, what pretty talk, very beautiful.

[Watcher]

Pretty talk, very beatiful lol. Point is however that the NLP is very logical rational very male therefore uninteresting to women. That is just our nature but heck i was board so thought id take a different angle, the conversation covers everything around here. Boring and exciting and arousing.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The conversations about ideas are logical and rational, too, and better still, they\'re not designed to manipulate and engage emotions for profit. It\'s very stimulating to listen to people talk about ideas, especially about higher things - Whitehall and Dr. SmellThis in particular make good foils for each other in their approaches.

Reminds me of lines from a Joni Mitchell song: \"You know the times you impress me most/are the times when you don\'t try/when you don\'t even try...\" i.e., people are most attractive when just freely expressing themselves without agenda.

[DrSmellThis]

Now I\'ve gotta hear it from the guys. See what you did, FTR?
(Thanks, anyway.)

[bjf]

Bump, for cryin\'

out loud. Aren\'t people aware that the strongest potential for pheros lies in mixing all of them? Why not go for

the best? Isn\'t your sex life important enough? Chem sets last. Chem set + A1 + NPA + EW = maximum weaponry. Why

not save your money up? Who cares about scents? Great scents can come from freakin\' anywhere. No offense to

anyone, but do people really think the scents are that outstanding? SOE is good, but there are many great musk

colognes. Why not concentrate on the pheros? That is the unique offering of this site. The more we support raw

pheros, the more they will introduce! Does anyone think our chances to get laid will improve that much by putting

the same old -none in a strap, versus an old sock, powder, a hat, a diffuser, or a new pineapple/banana joy jelly?

-- by mixing two -none colognes together and naming it after myself? SOE+Rogue+PPA+SPMO = BiteThis1. By worrying

about which -none flavor to buy? Whatever. Dudes, PPA is -none in suntan lotion! Rogue Male is -none in a whatever

cologne. I understand convenience for newbies, but we need to concentrate on taking it to a new level! -- not on

combining the same 2-3 ideas over and over. Primal Instinct with ylang-ylang? Give me a break. It\'s -dirty

-none with a girly scent added. It\'s for premature ejaculators. I\'m sure it works, but not for any reason

other than it contains a -- suprise -- pheromone! It\'s the same chemical as in any other -none formula. Hello?

Should I put it on my arm, my finger, or my eyelashes? Should I spray it over my nuts or under my nuts? Maybe I

should masturbate with it, right here in front of the other premature ejaculators in the forum. If I combine 6

products with the exact same pheros, is it better than 5? Let\'s debate for a week or two. Where\'s my

freakin\' Pabstie? Buuurp.

When is Dr. Smellthis' Evil Drunken Twin going to make a return

visit?

[MOBLEYC57]

When is Dr.

Smellthis' Evil Drunken Twin going to make a return visit?<Peeping from under the bed> He's coming

back!?!? :sad: :run:

[DrSmellThis]

:o God I was immature back then!

Those were the old days before etiquette was invented.

[Holmes]

:o Those were

the old days before etiquette was invented.

:lol: :lol:

[surfs_up]

What can one say about all of this. When I studied NLP in its early day it was, then, in that time, a

new, interesting thing. Slowly it mutated into a weird, constipated, dismal "three easy keys to success" cheezeball

freakshow. There may be better than average teachers here and there but overall it's forgettable stuff. I studied

with all the original figures, often in small seminar settings,Linden, Bandler, Grinder, Dilts, Andreas, Dobson,

James, even the extraterrestrial Carmine Baffa. I promise you, if their system was anywhere close to being as

effective as they promoted it as being, I'd have all the goodies life has to offer, and then some. That there is

some value in it doesn't obviate the fact that it is a weak technology promoted by a bunch of

mediocrities.

Pheromones are more fun and work better. My preference is to roll my own according to the

circumstance, and combine with a top quality fragrance when called for. The basic choice is will it be a high -NONE

mix (strong reactions, faster, and more risky) or a high -NOL mix (moderated reactions, slower response time,

varying degrees of sociability), or a high -RONE mix (not often seen here, much more laid back, contemplative)...

let's see... there are 6 -mones that I regularly combine and there may be a seventh on the way...
I'm curious

about how much overlap there is with La Croy and the other mystery sauces...

On the subject of non verbal

cuing, I think the most central thing to learn is the concept of "congurity"... the only living teacher I know about

who specifically teaches congruity skills is David Dobson in Friday Harbor, an island outside of Seattle, and he's

ancient, still working though. The brain is hard wired to pick up on congruent and incongruent signals, it takes a

real pro to sift through the fine incongruities, there's some guy, a professor I think, who is the world's leading

authority on facial signals. Salesmen, politicans, and con men work hard at ironing out incongruities, often with

masking behavious like excessive gesticualition or consciously overworking their facial muscles to obscure their

fine motor "tells". Women seem to be more finely tuned to congruity and incongruity that men are as congrity has

less to do with chucking a speak through a hyena than it does with mate selection. If you are moderately

incongruent, women will ready you as "creepy" of "off putting" without exactly being able to say why, some bad asses

succeed because they are congruent as bad asses, it's the undigested, poorly integrated parts of the psyche that

generate confusion or discomfort in others, that translates into not getting laid.

Having said all of that,

NLP paid lip service to the congruity problem, with the lone exception of Dobson they didn't know what to do with

it. It was one of those gassy generalizations that forever hung in the air and nobody could shape into procedure.

[bjf]

"it's the undigested, poorly

integrated parts of the psyche that generate confusion or discomfort in others, that translates into not getting

laid."

Great point.

[DrSmellThis]

What can one

say about all of this. When I studied NLP in its early day it was, then, in that time, a new, interesting thing.

Slowly it mutated into a weird, constipated, dismal "three easy keys to success" cheezeball freakshow. There may be

better than average teachers here and there but overall it's forgettable stuff. I studied with all the original

figures, often in small seminar settings,Linden, Bandler, Grinder, Dilts, Andreas, Dobson, James, even the

extraterrestrial Carmine Baffa. I promise you, if their system was anywhere close to being as effective as they

promoted it as being, I'd have all the goodies life has to offer, and then some. That there is some value in it

doesn't obviate the fact that it is a weak technology promoted by a bunch of mediocrities.

Pheromones are more

fun and work better. My preference is to roll my own according to the circumstance, and combine with a top quality

fragrance when called for. The basic choice is will it be a high -NONE mix (strong reactions, faster, and more

risky) or a high -NOL mix (moderated reactions, slower response time, varying degrees of sociability), or a high

-RONE mix (not often seen here, much more laid back, contemplative)... let's see... there are 6 -mones that I

regularly combine and there may be a seventh on the way...
I'm curious about how much overlap there is with La

Croy and the other mystery sauces...

On the subject of non verbal cuing, I think the most central thing to learn

is the concept of "congurity"... the only living teacher I know about who specifically teaches congruity skills is

David Dobson in Friday Harbor, an island outside of Seattle, and he's ancient, still working though. The brain is

hard wired to pick up on congruent and incongruent signals, it takes a real pro to sift through the fine

incongruities, there's some guy, a professor I think, who is the world's leading authority on facial signals.

Salesmen, politicans, and con men work hard at ironing out incongruities, often with masking behavious like

excessive gesticualition or consciously overworking their facial muscles to obscure their fine motor "tells". Women

seem to be more finely tuned to congruity and incongruity that men are as congrity has less to do with chucking a

speak through a hyena than it does with mate selection. If you are moderately incongruent, women will ready you as

"creepy" of "off putting" without exactly being able to say why, some bad asses succeed because they are congruent

as bad asses, it's the undigested, poorly integrated parts of the psyche that generate confusion or discomfort in

others, that translates into not getting laid.

Having said all of that, NLP paid lip service to the congruity

problem, with the lone exception of Dobson they didn't know what to do with it. It was one of those gassy

generalizations that forever hung in the air and nobody could shape into procedure.I'd be interested in

learning more about this. It's hard to be congruent when you have an evil twin. :D

[bjf]

No shame Doc, I love your evil

twin!!!!!

He drinks pabst and speaks him mind!

[DrSmellThis]

Everybody who wants the gifts of

pheromone science to get better for themselves should get as many raw pheromones as they can -- all of them if

possible -- and experiment with them. That is the only way for all of us to learn. The responsibility can't lie

with product manufacturers, who are going to not tell people results, to protect sales, or for whatever other

reasons. Every morning I lay out like a two foot long row of bottles of things to maybe put on myself. I try

different things, depending on the day. Of course, that's extreme. It seems to me that few people passionately

experiment with these things.

One recent experiment is to forego -none entirely while wearing things I know will

convert to -none.

[bjf]

Doc, I really did agree with everything

your drunken evil twin said, which is why I bumped it up - so everyone could see it. You can only go so far messing

around with the same old sh!t before it gets boring. What about partipating in the collect-your-own sweat

experiment? :) Einstein collected his pee for science, for god sakes!

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks. Maybe Mr. Twin will have

to pay a visit soon -- just without appearing to crap on so many people who are trying to make a living. :o

[camusflage]

No shame Doc, I love

your evil twin!!!!!

He drinks pabst and speaks him mind!
Funny.. I'd imagined the evil twin to be

an absinthe kind of guy, personally. :)

[surfs_up]

annnnnnnnnnddddddd heeeeeeeere's richaaaaaaaard!!!!!!!!!

A gnarly piece of the real history of NLP, general

cautionary story....

http://www.geocities.com/bandlertrial/bandler1.html

An eye opener.

[BassMan]

annnnnnnnnnddddddd

heeeeeeeere's richaaaaaaaard!!!!!!!!!

A gnarly piece of the real history of NLP, general cautionary story....



[url="http://www.geocities.com/bandlertrial/bandler1.html"]http://www.geocities.com/bandlertrial/bandler1.html[/ur

l]

An eye opener.Awesome story. :goodpost:

-Bass

[CptKipling]

:o God I was

immature back then! Those were the old days before etiquette was invented.
Ah the good old days :rolleyes:

(<-- that's meant to be a contented grin btw)