Users of Yes! - noticed this with lesbians/bi-f ??

[proteus]

I have a question for users of Yes. A very noticeable hit I had with a lesbian woman this weekend prompted me to ask this question of other users of Yes!. (BTW I use Yes on and off as I have found it to be a very good product for me, and I will sometimes wear it on it\'s own/or mixed with PF or JB#1). Anyway, I have noticed now a very visible effect it has on lesbian/bi women - maybe this was due to something else, but this past Fri coming back on my commute out to my place on the train I noticed this lesbian lady who I see fairly often as she gets off same stop as I do, and is kinda the butch type of lesbian but older/professional (late 30s). Anyways I\'ve been messing around with PCC and Yes! lately but Fri night was only wearing Yes! Anyway. we get off at the same stop so I\'m by the door, train is one stop from my station and shortly after she comes up - then as she approaches where I am waiting by the door she got a whiff of my pheros and she got extremely flustered like she wanted to talk kept looking at me smiling, couldn\'t stand still and just seemed to be really liking the scent and had this peculiar look on her face. Now I\'ve seen her before without Yes and she has been very stern/never smiling/completely avoided any kinda of eye contact beyond the casual type but she definitely seemed a mixture of excited/confused/aroused . Now does one hit like this make a theory?? No, but as I thought about this I thought back to two other hits I had with lesbian/bi-f - those stuck out which is why I remember as I\'ll explain. First hit I\'ll mention is this lady at work who I suspect is a lesbian (also looks kinda butch, and has short-cropped spiky blond hair, black jeans almost always etc mid-30s - I don\'t know for sure she\'s lesbian/bi whatever but never see her with guys/not married ) - anyway, early on when I started using pheros I used Yes! at work and she was passing my cubicle going to collect some files nearby - we would normally say hi but had never spoken before. Anyway, she walks by and I think the Yes! hit her right in the whatever as she got the DIHL, freezes looks at me then comes into my cubicle and for the first time introduces herself to me and we talk for awhile. And she has that same flustered expression as the other lady I already mentioned but in this case she also was wearing this low cut blouse and has her right hand under the material of her left shoulder from the front and is stroking it as we talk and her nipples are visibly erect and protruding like I\'d never seen before. So she was around me all day but for various reasons I stopped using pheros in the office (basically coz of the effect on my boss) and things returned to normal and never saw her act like that around me again although we are now \" office friends\" ever since that day. Now the last hit I want to mention was the hit I had when I was wearing Yes!/PF at this bar/club and this lady (mid-20s), gorgeous gal, who I number closed (followed up but things didn\'t go anywhere as she was involved), was all over me in this club, although at first she gave me a hard time at first but kept coming back to me, danced with me, let me feel up her ass etc. but the thing about is my brother\'s gf was there with my bro. , and early on when this lady was giving me resistance my bro\'s gf said that this gal was a lesbian and told me to stop wasting my time on her. I asked her how does she know, and she says women know these things..... she was dressed in all black/fishnet outfit, and wearing catwoman stype glasses so maybe this was what made her say this,. but my bro\'s gf said it was more than just the appearance. Anyway, this gal had a gorgeous body, beautiful face - very classy and sophisticated type and I was nuts about her, but as I said nothing developed after as she let me know she was involved, with a man or woman she never said. But couple of weeks later when I told my bro\'s gf it went nowhere even though I got her number, she said that she probably the reason why things didn\'t go anywhere was due to what she had told me - in my bro\'s gf mind this confirmed what she suspected that this lady was a lesbian, but for some reason had become attracted to me that night - matter of fact what she said almost word for word was \" I told you she was a lesbian and just because she\'s lesbian doesn\'t mean she can\'t like a guy. She probably liked you as a person and was having a fun time with you but never meant for it to go any further\" So this was the first incident where this Yes! effect on a lesbian (well in this case possible lesbian) occurred and putting all of these hits together I wanted to know if anyone else has noticed this. I\'ve had hits with women on this pretty much all the time I use it, but the really \"I\'m starting to get a little out of control here\" type of hits from Yes! I\'ve only noticed with lesbian/bi women. Annoying thing about Yes is that guys get very buddy with you also so when I use it I often try to add some none to scare them off. Anyway, sorry for the long post but I wanted to see whether this is just some kinda fluke or whether anyone else has observed this with lesbians/bi-f . also, hope no-one is offended that perhaps I\'m stererotyping lesbians with judging by appearance, but as I\'ve tried to explain it was a number of factors in each case that led to this conclusion.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If you write your story in small blocks, it is much more enjoyable and easier to read!!

[proteus]

never been much of a writer as all of my english teachers/professors would attest too :-)

[Xehupatl]

just remember: if you want to keep getting what you\'ve been getting, keep doing what you\'ve been doing
/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

[proteus]

?????? Is this turning into a freakin English class? Now I got folks quoting back my quotes trying I guess to imply something from the earlier post about my writing skills or lack thereof - wtf?!!!?

[frenchie]

Proteus
I am a lesbian (sorry for my english, i\'m french - but smaller blocks in your text would better, I must say !). Anyway... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

I read what you wrote with attention as i may be concerned as a girl trying to attract other girls.
So far i suppose i have UD (underdosed) the products i use (PI/w, PCC, AE/w and the strange new EW) - i have no great results, but the tests were not very strict in fact, and i will try a little more drops and other mixes.
The fact is that i have noticed the products i use (now : PCC + Kenzo with EW (called EW-Kenzo), have an effect on girls, and i\'m quite sure it has more effect on lesbians than on heteros (which is good for me actually /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif, and i even thought maybe it\'s a way of knowing if a girl has a greater part of homosexuality in her, even if she will never be out of the closet or never live it.

EW-Kenzo smells really bad - I put some on my jeans (just like Bassman or someone with his lucky pants, to avoid too close a contact with anyone), but nobody ever told me \"help ! it stinks over here !\". But the spray bottle i use is plastic made, and not very well isolated, couldn\'t find a glass one !
I also think Kenzo is much too subtle an eau de toilette for EW, it\'s even a pity for Kenzo.

So i tried an other mix : EWKenzo + PCC to cover the smell + a product called KenzoKi with ginger smell (it\'s a stick or what Mr Kenzo calls a \'beneficial water\'). I really like the smell of this mix : it\'s refreshening, nice (PCC and Kenzoki). I haven\'t tried it on the field yet, but at least i feel really good wearing it ! Ginger is strong enough to help cover the smell of EWK, and yet very subtle.
As soon as i have tried it, i will tell you. Remind me from time to time, even by a private message or on the women\'s forum, it should take a few weeks...

But Yes + PF, i will think of it. Wonder if it could work with Lure ? the trouble is that i had started with using PI/m and i had noticed a strong effect on a friend i was working with - she just looked at me, maybe wondering if i were an extraterrestrial !

Sorry for the mistakes, you english teachers ! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif)

Frenchie

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t see that any English teachers made even one criticism anywhere...

[proteus]

Frenchie,
I\'ve been trying PCC as well but with JB#1 always so it was interesting to read the mixes you\'ve been trying and please do tell me the results of your tests of your EWKenzo + PCCwith ginger mix. I\'ve been trying the PCC to test out Whitehall\'s theory that copulins on a man will give him the stamp of a man involved sexually with lady since it\'s a well-observed phenomenom that a man who is \"involved\" seems to attract a lot more attention from ladies. So Whitehall theorised that perhaps this is due in part to the copulins that she is \"stamping\" him with.

So far the only noticeable effect I get from PCC with JB#1 is women being very comfortable around me, wanting to do stuff for me, help me, acting very familiar. Anyway, I\'ll be looking for the results you come up with.

As regards Yes!, the Yes/PF combo always works really well for me, but the critical component with lesbian women definitely seems to be the Yes, as in each case that I mentioned the variable that did not change was the Yes. I only wish the lady I mentioned in the bar was someone I came across regularly so I could have consistently exposed her to more Yes! as I really liked her, but then again I guess her preference is not men so whatcha gonna do :-)

[Gerund]

Right, FTR... and I\'m pretty sure English teachers would have used the highly technical term \"paragraphs\" instead of \"smaller blocks of text.\" hehe

[xxxPantero]

Proteus, When they quoted you as saying \"if you want to keep getting what you\'ve been getting, keep doing what you\'ve been doing\" I don\'t think it was to criticize.

It\'s using your own quote to enlighten you! If you want to keep getting lesbian hits, keep putting on Yes! or PCC or whatever it was. Got it?

[frenchie]

\"I only wish the lady I mentioned in the bar was someone I came across regularly so I could have consistently exposed her to more Yes! as I really liked her, but then again I guess her preference is not men so whatcha gonna do :-)\" :

If the only thing you\'re after is having sex with a lady, well of course it\'s no use wearing pheros when you meet her !
Try to consider an other point of view : i do enjoy having a chat with gay people, because we talk of everything in the most free way, and no subject is censored (especially questions about human relationships). This rarely happens with heteros in everyday life... just think of it ! We are a kind of a family as we recognize each other...

Today at the supermarket, I met a girl i had seen once or twice (no more) last year - she is the aunt of a little girl whom i taught some tennis to. I had noticed her because she is nice looking, and i had an intuition about her being gay. I said hello, then we started talking about work - there was something in her eyes and her way of talking about things... I told her i was gay, and that it really changed my life (into better, sorry guys /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif)- then she told me she was divorcing, with a little girl, and that she had fallen in love with a \"she\"...
This made the contact a lot easier, and we\'re going to play good tennis quite soon and have nice talks ! I enjoy life this way...

Frenchie

[proteus]

actually in this instance I actually liked this lady and wanted to get to know her better/see where things led etc. and as I mentioned until my bro\'s gf mentioned that she thought she was lesbian I had no idea.

Of course I was very sexually attracted to her (and she seemed to like me a lot too), but I also liked that she was obviously very intelligent/sophisticated, and seemed really nice (was a social worker she told me and seemed to really care about others etc.).

In retrospect I think the Yes (if my observation is correct with respect to its effect on lesbian women) maybe got her interested in me more so than she usually would have with a guy, which is why I said I wish I could have met her consistently coz, maybe the Yes would have allowed her to get to know me and who knows??

Of course I acknowledge that it\'s a little presumptous for me to assume that I could make a lesbian lady get interested in having a relationship with a guy, but fact is that night she was as interested in me as I was in her, but I think once she got away from the pheros she probably was like \"what did I just do?? etcetc?\" :-)

[Whitehall]

According to some books I\'ve read, most \"lesbians\" tend to drift in and out of same-sex orientation. Many women experience it only as a \"period\" in their life and resume heterosexual relations after a while. Of course, some women are exclusively lifelong lesbians but most aren\'t.

Even lesbians respond physically to penetration so a woman who says she\'s a lesbian is usually still a potential target. The \"thought\" may not excite but the action can. It is more of a long shot though. The fashion these days seems to encourage more women to give it a whirl, at least for the experience.

Personally, my advice is reaction to the behavior, not the words. Generally, my policy is not to waste much time and energy if a woman says she\'s a lesbian unless she is strongly responding to me as a heterosexual woman would. And, frankly, I\'ve never knowingly closed with a self-proclaimed lesbian nor have I gotten any positive hits from one so this is largely received wisdom.

[frenchie]

I wouldn\'t say it is presomptuous for you ! some of what you call lesbians give it a try and start a relationship with a guy...
you know, it\'s not as easy to be a lesbian (or gay) as it is for a hetero : we have a huge pressure around us, all the criteria for everything are of a hetero type... believe it or not, we are never 400% sure of our sexuality as the social pressure is here. That\'s why we need to be in special places (bars, clubs) where we can talk freely...
I also think (a lot of people do too) that we are all bisexuals, and our sexual identity is not what we think it is : forever, strong, definitely fixed. The rest is a question of social order, education, religion, and habits.

This was just to say that if you are really interested in each other as you mention, all you need is patience and some more time - just start by getting friends... it\'s better having a good friend than a bad lover (i suppose this is only a woman\'s opinion !)

Maybe i\'ll try Yes !

Frenchie

[proteus]

I\'m not averse to having a relationship with a lesbian/bi woman if she was interested in me, but like you I\'ve never had such a relationship and matter of fact don\'t know anyone who has, although like yourself I have read books which state what you wrote.

Based on my experience with this lady I think your advice is very wise, although she was responding absolutely like she was a heterosexual women. But my bro\'s gf was 100% pos. she was lesbian, said women know these things etcetc.- so I\'m assuming something (the Yes! perhaps as already stated ) made her respond positively to me as she didn\'t resist my touch, reacted back positively as we sat/danced. so I guess with sexual orientation (if it was the pheros) the temporary phero response to you is just that, temporary. (Course she\'s not the first lady to change her mind after giving me her number as this is just the nature of the whole dating game so who knows, could be anything that caused her to respond differently when we talked on the phone )

[frenchie]

well well well... it makes you shy, doesn\'t it ?
how do you know she\'s a lesbian ? your brother\'s gf is not supposed to have the right answer - just be cool, ask this girl (in a diplomatic way of course) !

Just do as YOU feel, don\'t give your bro\'s gf opinion too much importance, she\'s not going to rule your life, is she ?

Some time ago, i had to make a love declaration - it\'s not easy at all ! and she just said no, she just likes me a lot but doesn\'t want to end the relationship... i thought of leaving the place and run away. But i\'ll try to stay and wait for my chance... it\'s all new to me - i always run away, this time i\'ll stay around.

Just do as you feel - who knows ?
(btw, wish me luck for this girl ! as i wish you good luck)

Frenchie

[EXIT63]

You\'re going to do just fine Frenchie.
Just remember how wonderful and lovable and desirable you are.
GOOD LUCK

[proteus]

Frenchie:
This was a long time ago (at least 8 months ago) since I spoke to this lady and when we spoke on the phone she definitely was no longer interested in seeing where things would go between us as she said she was involved etc.

So I threw away her number as I knew it was impossiblefor me to be \"just friends\" with her - for the most part I believe the old quote from \"When Harry Met Sally\" that \"men and women can\'t be friends - the sex always gets in the way\" and in her case, despite the fact that I did like her intelligence/personality I also was too physically attracted to her to honestly be \"just friends\" so I haven\'t spoken to her since.

And actually when my bro\'s gf had told me not to waste my time with her coz she was positive she was lesbian I told her I didn\'t care - all I knew was she seemed into me and that was enough. I\'ve never been one to be shy or to allow someone else to tell me what to do etc.

Also, if it wasn\'t that I was so attracted to her I think it\'d have been great to be pals with her as she was really cool. It is interesting that you confirm that some lesbians do in fact date guys sometime, and I can understand the pressure to a degree (no-one can fully understand unless they walk in your shoes everyday) that you spoke about about what it must be like to live in a hetero world.

hey, and I absolutely wish you the best of luck with the girl you spoke of. You sound really cool and I hope all works out for you.

P.S. If ever you do try Yes! let me know how that goes but I think the jury is still way out as to whether this was the cause of these responses, but I will post/PM you if I have anymore hits with it.

[frenchie]

sorry for what i said - didn\'t know your story happened 8 months ago...
One difference between you guys and us lesbians is that we can put sex aside and spend a lot of time in friendship (very close friendship sometimes).
It\'s new to me : the old scheme (boyfriend, girlfriend, or just friends, or no relation when the answer is no) is exploding, leaving room to a world of relationships one can\'t imagine ! Much more erotic than sexual.
I know i\'m very much physically attracted to my friend, and that\'s why i thought of going away... but i don\'t want to lose her as we can get very close... so i\'ll have to put it aside for a while and wait till my rival has gone.
Isn\'t that adventure ? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Exit : thanx for your message

Now it\'s 1 am here in Paris - wish you all good night !

Frenchie

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Gerund -

Now, there\'s a bright boy who sat up front and paid attention!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There is one point I\'d like to address, which was brought up in passing and which I would like to seize upon for the opportunity of making a statement. Wait a second while I get up on my soapbox and turn on the mike. Ok. I object to the idea that everyone is potentially bisexual. There may be many people who are bisexual or potentially bisexual, but there is also flat-out gay, and there is also flat-out straight. This assertion seems mostly aimed at women and I am beginning to think it\'s connected to a form of sexual exploitation of women. I increasingly run into men, especially younger men, who use this notion of inherent bisexuality to convince women to act out what Frenchie so aptly calls that old male fantasm of two women, for their own gratification. Younger women are buying into this and will exhibit lesbian behaviors for the purpose of exciting their male companions but without there really being anything sexual about it for the women. It\'s not uncommon for a young girl after a heart break to swear off men (no-account bastards all) and check out the other side for awhile, believing that women couldn\'t possibly act so badly, that our gender is superior with regard to conduct toward lovers. Having munched my share of what I thought would be greener grass in my time in such a circumstance, I\'m here to tell you it ain\'t so. The relationships are even more complicated, women are just as evil and jealous and cruel and insensitive as men are, the social isolation and pressure is horrendous and who needs it -- I love my women friends but I only like sex with men. I had lesbian girlfriends, one couple in particular, who were quite eager for me to come over to their side, and told me how the sex was so much better and I would discover a whole new world. Baloney. You know why lesbians think girl/girl sex is so much better? BECAUSE THEY\'RE LESBIANS, duh.It is not uncommon for young males to experiment with homosexuality, either - if only circle jerking or rationalizing that being the \"passive partner\" isn\'t about dabbling in homosexuality, it\'s just getting a blow job. But you don\'t hear the assertion that all people are bisexual applied to men nearly as often as you hear it applied to women, and I am beginning to suspect the motives.Some people just have gender confusion and can\'t figure out exactly what they are. Some people really don\'t care about sex at all and can\'t figure out what all the fuss is about.So I put out for you the what-now-seems-radical idea that straight exists, and the assertion that we are all inherently bisexual is mistaken. Even given youthful, normal experimentation, most of us end up on one side or another of the fence. Sorry, Proteus and Frenchie, to take off on a tangent on your thread and please forgive me and inform me if anything I\'ve said gave offense; I apologize in advance as it was not my intention. FTRP.S. Ace, I paragraphed but for some reason it doesn\'t show up when the post is put up. Sorry. :-)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Okay.. I can\'t help it. I\'ve got to add my two cents.

I resist the whole notion of gay, not gay, kinda gay, intermittently gay. What I\'ve noticed, and I try to pay attention, is that there are no rules. I\'ve known \"straight\" guys who have been with other guys. I have known \"gay\" guys who have been with women. etc., etc.. Ultimately, I think it boils down to basic attraction. If one person is attracted to another, things find a way to happen. One of the things I dislike about the labels in particular, is that they set up false boundaries between people. I wonder how many people have let \"THE ONE\" get away because of some ridiculous set of labels. I\'ve have dated a number of women who said they were \"lesbians\". I have observed that the hesitation, if any, is more about the social ramifications of shifting from one label to another. \"Oh no.. I had sex with a man\". \"Does this mean I can\'t be a lesbian anymore\"? There are a million reasons why someone chooses a particular sexual orientation. I personally believe that many of them have absolutely nothing to do with being attracted to a specific person. For example, I\'m not attracted to any man I ever met, and I doubt that I ever will be. Then again, I have close personal friends that I didn\'t think would have been either. Maybe I just haven\'t met the right guy. lol. I\'ve known people that have gone back and forth numerous times proclaiming to be whatever they were at the moment.

When I\'m attracted to a person, I find out if they\'re attracted to me. If they answer with a label, I restate the question.

Thanks and sorry for the rant.

[Watcher]

My pheromone soapbox to repeat what james kohl has said. Some men and women react to both sets of sex pheromones ie androgens and couplins these people are bi-sexual in a very insticnt sort of way. But the vast majority of people arent true bi-sexuals its just a society fashionable thing - young women do fall for the male thing of bi-ness as a cover for their fantasies over two women and the guy - young women buy into anything that is shown in the fact that they still dont know what the hell they want (experimentation years - early 20s.)

Oh hell i can imagine how nasty women can be to each other at least with men we either co-operate to get better results for both parties or fight it out and clobber each other - society has never flat out rejected pshycial violence. The radical straight only does in fact exist although 70% of males have gotten horny according to facts over another man at least once in their life. ALso in war homosexuality goes up (prisons to) but mostly so that the group as a whole with a lack of women can still get their rocks off. I guess the same applies to women who have been \"hurt - or left unsatisfied\" by men (also linked to prince charming/white knight syndrome) perpurtrated by the media at large.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It could be that fluid for many people, but it is not for everyone. The proclamation that everyone is bi or potentially bi means \"straight\" does not even exist. I am beginning to feel ostrasized. I think there is a continuum, but think of it as a circle - there is an opposite point for any point you can identify, and just because there are many points on the circle does not mean that any one discrete point does not have its own integrity.Whoever, however you love I think is good. But no one\'s preference should be denied as though it didn\'t exist, and that seems to be what has happened to \"straight.\" It\'s been annihilated. I think that is inaccurate.And I so agree with Watcher that it\'s become fashionable to deny hetero and proclaim bi whether you are or not. Anything that pushes toward inauthenticity, I object to and I do think young women are being manipulated especially by the hype.Thanks Sigipa for jumping in. You\'re something else. :-)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Beautiful! FTR That\'s exactly my point. None of it really exists.

You just have a bunch of folks running around trying to boink each other and bumping their heads into imaginary walls.

Isn\'t it truly amazing how we insist on needlessly complicating our lives.

[frenchie]

I agree with you, Sigipa ! there are no rules. It\'s only a question of attraction to someone else, woman or man.
I\'ve always been attracted to girls, though i\'ve fallen in love with 2 guys (one of them could have been the man of my life!), without being able to do anything with them.
There is also what magazines call a \"fashion effect\" - i think it\'s just more visibility from gay people, and this is completely natural and normal. Straight people may feel aggressed, but we have been aggressed for so many centuries, and it\'s not over !
Just be fair - i want to be free to love someone without people around me watching and saying \"she is different, but let\'s be tolerant, she has the right to exist as long as she doesn\'t bother us\". (i insist on the last part of the sentence : i remember pronouncing it when i was around 25-30, even if i was fascinated by girls atthe same time (the power of education !)
Before i realised i\'m a lesbian, i never felt a boundary between people - i was on the \"right\" side of the world, but i never felt good there. Now i\'m myself and i don\'t wait for any reaction from people around me (nor bad reaction nor tolerance). I had seen this film a long time ago : \"a very natural thing\", one of the first films talking about homosexuality in the 70s. It is a very natural thing indeed, to me at least

I also agree with you, FTR, with the fact that more and more people say they are bi. A psychiatrist would say it\'s because our sexual identity is not definitely fixed at the age of 20 or so. People want to make experiments too and it\'s OK (i suppose here we are aware of some limits no to trespass, though !). And there is this so called \"fashion effect\".

I think this discussion could be very very long as i do have the feeling i\'m not on the same planet sometimes and it\'s very difficult to understand.
So i prefer to say that i think we have a lot more to discover about relationships between people - things we have lost (we have just rediscovered we have a VNO, he ?), things we aren\'t thinking of nowadays.
The scientists have discovered the bonobo - this far cousin of the chimpanzee. Take a look at their social rules, it\'s really very interesting, and not only for the fun of sex !

Frenchie

[Xehupatl]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

?????? Is this turning into a freakin English class? Now I got folks quoting back my quotes trying I guess to imply something from the earlier post about my writing skills or lack thereof - wtf?!!!?

if you want to keep getting what you\'ve been getting, keep doing what you\'ve been doing

<hr></blockquote>

in essence, yes!
sorry, couldn\'t resist. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

ste

[proteus]

well maybe it\'s different for women, but I\'ve learnt that if you are physically attracted to a woman and she only wants you as a friend and is involved with someone else, hanging around only leaves you frustrated/pissed/ and in the end you always remain \"just a friend\".

And in your particular situation, think about how many people you could have met who do want you instead of waiting in the hope that this friend of yours will eventually get tired of your
\" rival \" as you put it, and perhaps decide to become involved with you. I know as you said being a woman you see this differently, but from my standpoint I\'ve been through enough of this to know that if I\'m physically attracted to a lady and she only wants to be friends that it always stays that way and I\'ve learnt it\'s best to move on as I\'m only preventing myself from meeting someone who does want something more than a friendship.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Unrequited love is oh-so-romantic and keeps your juices up without requiring any commitment; also good for making puppy dog eyes and getting sympathy. :-)

[frenchie]

ok, ok... i\'m thinking of it, actually !
as to being just friends, girls are complicated enough to let you know they just want to be friends with you and, at the same time, let you know you always have a chance to be a lover. You\'re lucky to be a man ! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
Frenchie

[BassMan]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>

as to being just friends, girls are complicated enough to let you know they just want to be friends with you and, at the same time, let you know you always have a chance to be a lover. You\'re lucky to be a man !

<hr></blockquote>100% frenchie. I\'ve never bought into the \"let\'s just be friends\" rap. I just smile. Ok. Let\'s be friends, darlin\'. (Until we can get this here fire started...)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh its so good having a woman\'s opinion in the forum, it gives a wider perspective!!!!
Come on frenchie, just give us the magic key to un-lock any womans heart!!!

[frenchie]

i\'m afraid there\'s no magic key ! we are all different...
i\'d also like to have the key !

Frenchie

[proteus]

FTRedhead: Unrequited love perhaps is romantic in theory, but sucks big time if you\'re experiencing it yourself - I don\'t know how it is from a woman\'s point of view, but all I know is for a guy, allowing yourself to be LJBF\'d and then stilll hanging out with her, buying her dinner/paying for the movies etc is the most pitiful form of supplication and I\'ve done this and learnt from experience that it never changes anything.

She knows what you want, she\'s getting all she wants from you, does not find you sexually attractive and never will, but appreciates this convenient loser guy who is willing to be around her in spite of this. Worst thing about it is, if I even showed the remotest interest in another woman each of them would very effectively interfere and make the lady I\'m trying to chat think she and I were involved!!

Now it was my fault for allowing this to happen to me and I missed out on dating two or three really quality women who were very interested in me over a three-four year period because I was so hungup on these \"friends\" - so I no longer allow myself to be friends with a woman who I know I\'m very physically attracted too if she LJBF me (well, I never allow myself to be LJBD\'ed anymore also as I\'m better skilled at preventing this from happening).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I know. I\'ve been saying exactly the same thing to Frenchie from day one. You\'re preaching to the choir. She doesn\'t want to hear it and doesn\'t think we understand her because we\'re not lesbians. Glad to see you giving it a try, though, too.

[proteus]

Hey Frenchie!! So you are thinking of moving on ?? You mentioned how you always run, but this time want to stay in an earlier post and I can understand and respect that, but from my perspective if someone knows I want them, tells me no and is seeing someone else, well it\'s time to take care of yourself.

and as for what you said, women are extremely complicated I concur - there\'s the old saying from a movie that I think could as easily be applied to women as follows: \"women are a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma \" - course I love women too much perhaps because of this among other things so whatcha gonna do :-) - and you are so right that they are just so good at keeping you as a friend and giving you just a bit of hope that maybe you might be able to become their lover but I have opted completely out of this \"game\" as I cannot win it.

[proteus]

Well as I\'m sure you know the other side of this also is that you actually improve your odds of getting the one you really want by moving on and getting involved with someone else - by letting go, demonstrating you\'re not a convenient side piece and honestly moving on/seeing someone else you demonstrate value/that you won\'t be taken for granted/that you have other options

and this raises your value in the one you wants eyes as it forces her to make a choice. If she doesn\'t change her mind, she never would have and you\'ve already moved on anyhow so nothing lost.

funny thing is one of the aforementioned women that I was hungup on completely stopped speaking to me the moment I became involved with someone, yet for the many years we\'d been friends she\'d slept with 3-4 guys (always told me this stuff) and had two serious bf in that time but always said she wanted me just as a friend - I finally get a gf of my own, she gets extremely pissed, no longer speaks to me???!! Who was kidding whom about wanting to be just friends - anyway this is what convinced me of the truth that a woman only puts a guy into a friend category if he allows her to do this - that is if he\'s LJBFed, he did not make his intent clear from the moment the relationship began, that he was interested in her sexually, or never took the inititiative to make the sex happen . so in the end I guess this explains her not speaking to me - I did not do the job I was supposed to as a man but I was very inexperienced with women those days and definitely not alpha at least when it came to dealing with women romantically - just wasn\'t assertive enough!!! :- ).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Proteus, she\'s said a couple of times that it\'s not as cut and dried as we\'d like to make it. It\'s not a matter of fish or cut bait. Read through and see how many people have offered that advice. It doesn\'t help her, it only makes her feel more alienated. Last time she wrote she said sometimes she felt like she was from another planet and that we don\'t understand her. So probably we don\'t. This is a girl thing. We like to talk about stuff without having to resolve it. The purpose of the conversation is not to solve the problem, it\'s to air our feelings. It\'s also true that at certain stages in your life, you let yourself be in these sorts of relationships because that\'s the stage you\'re in, does that make sense? It\'s safe to love someone from afar, who holds you at arm\'s length. It doesn\'t make sense, but to quote from one of my favorite movies of all time, \"It\'s a fool who looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart.\" (O Brother Where Art Thou)

[proteus]

FTRedhead:
Well never saw those posts so wasn\'t aware that this had been said to Frenchie over and over again so my apologies to Frenchie if it seems like this advice is just piling on and on. Ultimately we choose our own paths, and I myself get extremely irritated when folks tell me what they think is good for me so I can understand this.

[frenchie]

ok folks, i got the message ! and though piling advice on and on really irritates me, i\'m not completely deaf or stubborn... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif i\'m not paranoiac either (thinking you can\'t understand me just because etc etc) !
So i\'m back on the road with lots of nice girls around...

Frenchie

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Frenchie, I\'m doing so badly today I shouldn\'t even try, but that\'s not the message I was trying to send. I just had an experience where I was trying to express something essentially female to a man, who I felt wasn\'t quite getting it, because he can\'t since he\'s never been a woman. I said you\'re probably right, we probably can\'t understand what it\'s like to be in your situation. I meant to sympathize - I hate it that you feel alienated. Sorry if I said the wrong thing.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hi Frenchie,

I feel like an important point is being missed. Only YOU really know what\'s right for you at any given time. There are some situations that we just have to get to a certain point with before we\'re able to move on. I have found that when a person changes or moves to quickly, that they have a tendency to revisit the same set of circumstances over and over again. You should listen objectively to all of the advice that is offered, but ultimately only you can decide what is best for you.

I met a women several years ago that I really liked. She was very nice and we became great friends, but I wanted much more from the relationship. My friends told me that I would never be able to get out of the friend zone and that I should move on. I had a hard time doing that, because she loved to spend time with me. We saw each other almost every day. I tried a million ways to show this girl that I wanted more, but she seemed indifferent. I was getting a lot of pressure from everyone I knew to move on, so against my better judgement, I did. Well.. I eventually moved to another city and life went on. I thought of her from time to time, but the whole situation always felt very unfinished. One day a ran into one of the friends that I\'d had during that time and she told me a story I will never forget. She said that this girl had recently been married. She remarked about how amazing it was, because of how much she had loved me..... I won\'t go on, but I\'m sure you get the idea. I have regretted that one decision more than any I have ever made. I promised myself that I would never be pressured into doing something that didn\'t feel completely right again. The bottom line is that whatever you decide to do. Make sure that you find a way to finish it. If you need to, go so far as to have a very candid and direct conversation with this girl. Try to satisfy yourself that it never would have worked. Do whatever you need to do to get closure. Otherwise, It may come back to haunt you.

Just my opinion. I hope it helps.

BTW: The girl was French.

Later,
-G

[frenchie]

hi sigipa,
don\'t know what to say about your story - a touching one...
we french are desperately romantic sometimes !
I think that as far as you have a positive intuition about someone, if you feel the relationship can improve and if you want it, you just have to go for it - whatever the relation is. The point is not to aim a very precise goal, but to keep things open. You never know which way a relationship can go.
But if you ever feel an obstacle (whatever it is, even a single, tiny one, but a real obstacle), and if you\'re really honest with yourself and not blinded by passion or desire or sexual frustration, then you must consider things an other way.
I\'m not the kind of person to move on just because I didn\'t get what I wanted at a precise time - the rythm can be different for two people (cf your story). Of course, right now, I could say : ok, she said no, but she still wants me to be around, so I\'ll move on, don\'t want to wait too long... but I feel I would regret it.
So, even if I have a look (ad more) at other girls, I\'ll be somewhere around, not very far, not too near. I must not forget that this is my life I\'m living.

We will have a direct conversation, she and I. She wants it too, she never said : stop it, go away... Things should get much better from then on. I think I\'m lucky to have met her (she feels the same) - many people just let the other one down just because they\'re scared or use them for a few nights.

FTR : are you a scorpio ? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Frenchie

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey, Frenchie. I\'m a Sagittarius, but with a strong Venus in Scorpio conjunct Neptune in the 11th house. Birth data\'s in my bio if you want to run charts on me (fair\'s fair, right?) Why?

[EXIT63]

Hi Frenchie,
I\'M A SCORPIO ! ! !
And I enjoy reading your posts very much.

[frenchie]

exit, I\'m a taurus - so if we ever met, something strange might happen ! we are supposed to attract each other as we are opposite signs... but my latest relationship, last year, was with a scorpio, and I sweared I\'ll never meet any arachneid again except for spiders in my home - it\'s just hell... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

FTR - you are the pro for describing our different signs,I\'m no good at astrology ! But then, sagittarius with some scorpio, I wasn\'t that far from it...

Frenchie