Anyone know where I can find...

[xxxPantero]

Custom made subliminal-hypnosis tapes? Where I can select what I want the tapes to say? I have some people I need to hypnotise.

[voodoo]

Hypnosis and subliminal messaging are two VERY different things. You cannot use subliminal messages to hypnotise people. As a clinical hypnotherapist I can assure you that hypnosis is very different from subliminal messaging. What are you trying to do??

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Pantero de mi alma, guapo mio,

I feel like you shouldn\'t try to influence someone that way without their informed consent....

[Watcher]

Fulltilt thats what pheros do they arent informed. We are influencing those around us to perceive as sexy and attractive. Oh well back to the drawing board.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, but to me that\'s a little different from specifically influencing someone to do certain things or think certain things. Does that seem too picky to you? Like, there\'s a difference between making yourself attractive to the opposite sex and then letting nature take its course, and forcing someone to act in a way that might be against their will or their best interests or their own vision of themselves.

[aaron]

I believe there was a vaguely related thread on something similar a little while ago and a website posted, which I did check out. I have to admit it was one of the sleaziest and base marketing ploys I\'ve seen (also pop-up hell, which I\'m still being plagued with to this day).

Having attended courses in hypnosis, hypnotherapy and human behavioural psychology I\'ll put into simple words one basic truth: You cannot hypnotise or force someone to do under hypnosis things that they would not normally do or do not want to do.

Hypnosis is simply a very strong power of suggestion, where peoples reactions are triggered by key words or visuals.

A person cannot be \"made\" to like someone else or perform actions, that are averse to them.

Subliminals were used in advertising a few decades ago to encourage people to purchase certain branded products. They were also used in movies to suggest to movie-goers that they were thirsty, hungry, and hence encourage them to go for the hot-dogs, soft drinks etc in the foyer during the intermissions.

I have, allowed myself to be hypnotised professionally. One is aware of what is happening. One does react in a desired manner, except to when your behaviour would go against that which you strongly object to.

Hypnosis/autosuggestion is a useful tool for people who wish to stop smoking, wish to change their behaviour/attitudes in a certain way (ie increase self confidence etc), but this is through personal choice.

IMHO you would be far better off using autosuggestion on yourself to encourage positive behaviour and attitudes, than wasting money on things that claim to make others act in a way you want them to...they won\'t.

Just my £0.02 worth /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actualy you can make people do something that they prior to the hypnosis session would never ever do, it just take´s more information(and a longer session) and involves manipulating tendencies already existant in the subject...........

Satan

Ps: don´t ask how exactly because I won´t tell...........

[voodoo]

I have to agree with Aaron, Hypnosis of any kind is always self-hypnosis. Mind manipulation is not as cut and dry as it seems. No matter the process a person will never do something against there already designed code of ethics while under hypnosis. As a practicing hypnotherapist I can assure you that is someone does not like you then they willnot like under hypnosis either.

Also having some experience in stage hypnosis you can give someone the illusion they will like you or love you but your suggestion must be made that it is only an illusionor that they \"think\" they are in love with you. People voluntarily come out of hypnosis and therefore any \"thought\" about loving someone or whatever it may be would now be gone. Post hypnotic suggestion even more so than suggestion during trance state must coincide with a person already chosen moral make up.

Another issue untouched on here is the practicing of hypnosis without proper training. I suggest if you are ever considering hypnotising someone you get proper training first. Being able to bring someone into trance is one thing but being able to control the situation should it get out of hand is another. Reading a couple books does not qualify you to do this. Reading a flight manual does not leave you qualified to operate a jumbo jet...the same is true with hypnosis.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

When I was in school, I participated in several psych experiments, which you could do for extra credit. One was a group hypnosis session in which, on a certain signal, you were to bend down as if to pick something up off the floor while simultaneously raising one arm above your head. Throughout the hypnosis of course I was aware of what was going on, even thinking to myself that the action asked for would look kind of ridiculous. Nevertheless, I did it on signal. I think it\'s unethical to hypnotize or attempt to hypnotize another person without that person\'s knowledge and consent, whether it is to make them bend down and raise an arm above their head or hop into bed with you and make mad monkey love.

[EXIT63]

Look into my eyes Red,
You are getting sleepy
Sleepy Sleeeppy Sleeeeppy
Now you are asleep.
When you awaken you will be madly in love with EXIT 63
You will be unable to resist his charms
When I count to 3 you will awaken
One Two Three

[xvs]

Interesting... but it\'s been said that people won\'t do anything under hypnosis that they wouldn\'t be willing to do otherwise.

So why would it be immoral to hypnotise someone to have sex with you?

Or if it is, why would it then not be immoral to use pheromones to achieve the same effect?

I don\'t necessarily think it is moral to hypnotise or immoral to use pheromones, just asking the question...

[xxxPantero]

Ok, there is a misunderstanding here.

I need subliminal tapes, not hypnosis.

And it\'s not to convince them to have sex. It\'s to convince them to do something like, change their mind about birth control, or change their mind about jealousy.

[franki]

Quote:
\"And it\'s not to convince them to have sex. \"

Why not? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, maybe I\'m just hopelessly old fashioned, but have you ever considered sitting down and having a conversation with them on the subject? ...

[marv14yag]

Uh, listen.......

If they WANT to, but deep down, they will do it, but, if not, they WON\'T....

So, either way, hypnosis..Pheromones, if they WANT to, but deep down, it just BRINGS it out...But, if they DON\'T want to, than, it\'s NOT going to happen.

And, I believe this is why pheromones work so well for some people, and yet, don\'t do anything for other people...I think some people, the problem is maybe social programming, etc...

Either, way, it\'s not really cheating at all, or, would it be, unethical immorral....

Example...If you were hypnotized to shoot someone you DIDN\'T like...You would probably shoot them, becuase deep down, you WANT to, but, if you LIKE someone, and you were hypnotized to do it, it WOULND\'T happen..Same thing as to having sex with someone....Maybe you would NEVER do it because you are too young, not ready, they are too old, financial, etc...

Bart

[xxxPantero]

FTR, i just used those as examples, although I have thought about it. Those things I would have talked about, but\'s in the general effect I\'m looking for.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Any chance of your telling what it is exactly that you want to accomplish and with whom?

[xxxPantero]

No.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Okey dokey then. Good luck to you!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

xvs, I believe it\'s immoral to manipulate people in such a way that their ability to make conscious choices is overruled, which would be the purpose of covertly playing tapes with subliminal messages to someone. In my world, that would be a very very wrong thing to do on a spiritual level, it would do me damage spiritually to attempt to manipulate someone\'s actions without their knowledge and consent. Pheromones and all the other things we do to make ourselves attractive are attempts at manipulation, it\'s true, and maybe it\'s a matter of degree, but to me the degree matters. The actual effect of the attempt, in other words, whether or not it would work to try to hypnotise someone or subliminally influence them, is not the important factor. To me, the important factor is whether or not it is right behavior to another human being to coerce their behavior in any way. I think maybe pheromones, perfume, being nicely dressed, etc. are attempts to seduce, and subliminally influencing another person is an attempt to coerce, and the former is fine and the latter is not. My opinion. What do you think?

[NoLimits]

I think this is something like what you are looking for. I haven\'t tried it.

http://www.mephisto-subliminal.com/tapes.html (\"http://www.mephisto-subliminal.com/tapes.html\")

[Gerund]

Well said, FTR. I\'ve been watching this thread with interest, curious as to whether anyone else was offended by the proposed circumventing of free will.

I don\'t know that xvs\'s desire for subliminal tapes is actually diabolical, nefarious, or mean-spirited. The post by satan actually bothers me more.

While we may attempt to influence someone\'s opinion of our attractiveness through pheromones, perfume, nice clothes, straighter teeth, whiter teeth, cosmetic surgery, or what have you -- those \"inducements\" do not interfere with the target\'s free will or power to choose. The ability to *perceive* is left intact.

Power -- true power -- does not hinge on bypassing someone\'s thought process.

And where\'s the satisfaction in getting your way if you turn someone into a robot concerning a specific behavior? Remember \"The Stepford Wives?\" I can\'t imagine any aspect of a relationship with a \"Stepford Wife\" being truly fulfilling...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Gerund, I love you very much! :-)

[Gerund]

I actually need to express myself more forcefully on the subject of \"getting someone to do what they would not otherwise do.\"

What is the difference between what some in this thread are suggesting/advocating ------ and rape? The means are different, but the results are the same. You would get a benefit, the target would suffer a detriment. The only way that what you propose differs from rape, is that the usurping of free will is not done via physical violence. And don\'t kid yourselves -- that IS the only difference.

Are FTR and I the only ones who see clearly what the real issue is?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I totally agree.

\"Date Rape on Tape\" Enough said.

[xxxPantero]

FTR, I agree with you. It isn\'t a good thing.

And strangely enough, I don\'t seem to care.

Not a personal attack on you, just my honset (too honest) opinion.

[xxxPantero]

THANKS NoLimits, that\'s exactly what I was looking for, although the website is a bit gimmicky, I do need a gimmick.

[xxxPantero]

It\'s not rape if someone can\'t be hynotised to do what they weren\'t going to do in the first place.


And to clear up something, I\'m already sleeping with the person (not as much as I\'d like to) so it\'s not rape, if I were to use it to turn her on.

[xvs]

Uh Gerund... try to read more carefully. I\'m not looking for any tapes.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Gerund , it is kinda a difficult to deffend (and explain ) what I ment without giving out the very infor mation on the subject that I am unwilling(for obvious reasons) to share........

Hypnosis is not a club( the stuff you see on hypno shows on tv) such use of hypnosis is short lived and the one thing that they rarely mention is the number of subjects they disscard during the hypnosis selection/testing prosess because the subject is unwilling to let go to the point of it beeing usable for entertainment.

When a teenager tries to convince his sweathart to go all the way with him(and succeding) the girl stil has chosen of her own free will, the same applies to a subject under the influence of hypnosis.

Satan

Ps: have you got anny idea how frustrating it is to try and defend a statement without divulging the one thing that would defend it beyond any shadow of a doubt:)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Has anyone ever found these subliminal tapes effective?

[CptKipling]

Gerund,

Made a very important point. There really is not satisfaction in COMPLETELY tricking someone into doing something they otherwise wouldn\'t. You should be able to do that with clever turn of phrase and clever (and often witty) language and vocabulary.

A* in Eng Lit boy out!

[Gerund]

My mistake; I apologize, xvs~

[Gerund]

satan, your post makes no sense, which confirms my original opinion of your thought process (or lack thereof).

In your most recent post, you say: \"When a teenager tries to convince his sweathart to go all the way with him(and succeding) the girl stil has chosen of her own free will, the same applies to a subject under the influence of hypnosis.\" But in your previous post, you claim: \"Actualy you can make people do something that they prior to the hypnosis session would never ever do, it just take´s more information(and a longer session) and involves manipulating tendencies already existant in the subject........... \"

Well, satan, I gotta ask ya: Which is it? A target making her choice of her own free will, or a target being made to do something she would never otherwise do, if not coerced by your magical hypnosis method? You can\'t have it both ways, you know -- or maybe you don\'t know.

As for your magical hypnosis method, of which you say: \"Gerund , it is kinda a difficult to deffend (and explain ) what I ment without giving out the very infor mation on the subject that I am unwilling(for obvious reasons) to share........\" Hmmm... Can you elaborate on the \"obvious reasons\"? Falling back on a trite phrase such as \"for obvious reasons\" is one of the weakest methods people employ when trying to support an unsupportable argument.

Last, and maybe least, you offer this: \"Ps: have you got anny idea how frustrating it is to try and defend a statement without divulging the one thing that would defend it beyond any shadow of a doubt:)\" satan, this is the *ultimate* weak method for trying to defend an indefensible position...

I wonder if I\'m wasting my time here. I\'m not sure you have the capacity to understand your inconsistencies and fallacies. Your ability to reason appears to be impaired, which may or may not be your fault. And I suspect this is only one of many times you have been confronted in this manner. But out in the real world, you have to expect backlash if you are still willing to post your thoughts for all to see~~

[Whitehall]

The best explanation of hypnosis that I\'ve ever encountered is found in \"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind\", near the end of the book.

Hypnosis is basically the mind working with unusual combinations of neural centers in the brain, somewhat similar to mystical states and psychosis.

[DrSmellThis]

C\'mon, kids, let\'s debate without ad hominum, judgemental comments. That\'s what the preview function is for. I\'ve had to edit nasty things out of my own posts several times. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

FTR, I just read your post about the group hypnosis session... I have heard about many of these sessions, but I never ever had the chance to directly ask someone who attended them, so I saw your post as a bless!

Actually I have always wondered how one of these sessions could \"work\", so could you go a little deeper in details? You got me curious about the matter /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s been so many years ago, it\'s hard to remember. We were in an auditorium at Old Dominion University where I went to school, I guess about 250 of us, I remember it was pretty full, and a speaker at the podium told us something like we were participating in a group hypnosis session, and then went through a hypnosis rap, (you\'re relaxed, you\'re going deeper, blah blah) and then told us that after some signal (hand clap? maybe) we would awake refreshed but on a certain other signal (I forget, maybe a word he said), we would reach down with one hand as if to pick something up while simultaneously raising one arm above our heads, and I remember thinking, I\'m not doing that, how strange. But I did it. It\'s weird. It was like watching myself from a distance. Many other people in the auditorium also performed the behavior. Some did not. You\'re awake while you\'re receiving suggestion and you may be thinking while you\'re receiving suggestion, but you ARE RECEIVING SUGGESTION and it can work to implant behaviors. Those things fade over time for lack of reinforcement and are harmless to begin with.

[Gerund]

Jeez, I\'m being taken to task in *Latin,\" no less...

I hear ya, Doc, I hear ya. But it really, really, really needed saying. Really!

BTW, my Latin\'s a little rusty, but I recall \"Ad Hominum\" to mean \"an attack on a person\'s personal attributes in an effort to discredit his opinion on an unrelated topic.\" For example: \"Why is president Clinton, a draft dodger and a pot smoker, leading the charge for welfare reform?\" I\'m sure you will recognize that that is not what took place in my post.

I admit to being condescending, but I believe I more than satisfactorily established a sufficient basis for calling into question his reasoning ability (which I presume is the personal attack to which you refer with \"ad hominum.\") So I gotta say that \"ad hominum\" doesn\'t fit. Any conclusions or opinions I reached about the individual\'s critical thinking ability are supported by evidence offered up by the subject himself. I didn\'t try to discredit him by disparaging his personal attributes; I did discredit him by holding up his own words for analysis. Much different, I think...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

gerund the concious works as sensor organ for the sub-concious mind and all concious minds have inhibittions and hangups, the subconcious has not and is compeletely dependant upon the subconcious in this regard.

If you are good at convincing people not under hypnosis to go \"your way\" imagine what you could achieve using hypnosis, I am not talking about forcing the subconcious but rather convincing it with out the hang-ups and hindrances the concious mind have.
It is for instance very easy to get a person who is under to share their deepest darkest secrets with complete honesty and with out any pretence of any kind and if the subjec is asked by the hypnotist if it would be unconfortable for the subject to remember sharing these secrets, the hypnotist can ask the subject if it is not better to feorgett that the secrets was share(essentialy the subject agrees to forget the secret sharing).
What I am trying to say is that with hypnosis it is a lot better to ask how the subject feels about something and use this to covince the subject, as opposed to the typical(and erroneous) wiev of hypnosis that it is some sort of magic wand that forces the person to do what ever the hypnotist want the subject to do.

It s just that convincing someone to do a certain thing is alot easier with hypnosis than without,It is for instance common to use hypnosis in the treatment of irrational fears and phobias using logic and reasoning becaus the subconcious works with absolutes and take things very litteraly it is a lot easier to do this with a person that is hypnotized.

Nlp does this persuasion through the concious mind which means that people often do things that are against their better judgment(i.e. regretting it afterwards) since with NLP you dont have the \"infalable\" feedback that you have with hypnosis.

The subconcios mind would have to agree to everything that you told it, if it didn´t it would be \"brute force hypnosis\" which is almost always traumatic to the subject and virtualy always broken free of by the subject.
Getting the concent of the subconcious mind is just a lot \"easier\" than getting it fron the concient mind since the subconcious deals with absolute truths and brutaly honnest towards itself not being hindered by the concious mind.

Satan

PS: how many people do you know that has no self-denial about anything and is completely honest with them selves?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Satan, there may be no one who has no self-denial and is completely honest, but repression and denial are defense mechanisms and people\'s psyches are delicate, and if you are not a very well-trained person in this particular area, you could do someone damage. Wouldn\'t you prefer to ascribe to the Hippocratic oath and above all, do no harm?

[Gerund]

<sigh> satan, you didn\'t answer any of my questions, or discuss any points I raised.

I notice, however, that you have a habit of ending your posts with unbelievably open-ended statements or questions, that could only invite endless discussion, but which have little, if anything, to do with the at subject at hand. It\'s the cheapest of debate tricks, an attempt to raise irrelevant issues, muddy the waters and obscure the fact that your arguments are not only without merit, but don\'t even address the subject. Don\'t expect me to take the bait.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"Satan, there may be no one who has no self-denial and is completely honest, but repression and denial are defense mechanisms \"

Not realy, they keep the person from dealing with and overcoming their problems, they are in other words a hindrance not a help.

\"and people\'s psyches are delicate,\"

The concious is usualy the root cause of trauma, the concious is the guardian of the sub-concious but in most cases this guardian is deeply flawed since it can influence the sub-concious through fixations and phobias and althoug it is very much a necessity for the subconcious tho have it as a protector it also causes the sub-concious a lot of problems and in many cases damage( the sub-concious is a lot more resillient than the concious but it is to eaily influenced without the concious to guard it)

\"and if you are not a very well-trained person in this particular area, you could do someone damage\"

Exactly the reason why I am so reluctant to share this.

\"Wouldn\'t you prefer to ascribe to the Hippocratic oath and above all, do no harm? \"

Freedom as far as you can take it without your freedom beeing a hindrance to anybody else´s freedom is the rule I have lived by since my late teens and I have not broken it once.............................

Satan

PS: I am not as bad as I sound, realy I´m not, honest!!!!!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\'k. I said my piece, my conscience is clear, that\'s all I wanted.

[DrSmellThis]

Yes Gerund, you got it right.

Calling into question someone\'s power to reason, per se, is the ad hominem comment. It is also an ineffective argument technique. A common way of improving one\'s argumentative technique is to keep one\'s criticism as narrow, within the conceptual context, as possible, to minimize unnecessary complications and land mines. A philosopher friend of mine once took me to task for the same thing.

No biggie. We\'re lucky here to have a forum where rules of rational debate are largely respected.