athena 10x

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I ordered this product a few weeks ago. Im trying it out now and mixed it with a bottle of 2-3 oz of tommy hil... The product doesnt seem to work for me so i decided to buy a bottle of apc and npa on this site and do a field test with those two combinations when they arrive. I am curious about any users of 10x on this site. The studies suggest that it will take about 3 days or even 4 to 6 weeks for the product to take effect. Why isnt the effect instantaneous? Must the female targets be consistently exposed to the pheromones or is the pheromones suppose to gradually change the user? Anyhow...how long would you suspect jb1 to show positive results?

[Watcher]

Totally useless they are just going on media reports alone absolutley no pheros in it well thats what tests have shown

Thats why athena x10 isnt here.

[xvs]

Tests have not shown that 10x contains no pheros.

Tests have shown that it contains no androstenone. And they don\'t claim it does.

I had amazing results with 10x for the first few years I used it. Playboy-quality women swooned over me. One girl kept saying \"That smell... I can\'t get over that smell!\" (while she was having sex with me). Numerous girls told me I smelled great (and 10x is unscented and I wore it without cologne). I had sex with a girl 1/2 hour after meeting her, at her own party. And I was only the 5th guy she ever had sex with.

But after a few years, the effects seemed diminished. I wrote to Athena and asked them if they\'d changed the formula. They said they hadn\'t. But I haven\'t reordered... instead I started doing more research and ordered some chem set products. And they seem to work... but I still wonder what\'s in 10x. Something\'s in it. Could be -nol (but with -nol no one tells me I smell great). Could be something completely different. I really have no idea, and they ain\'t telling.

By the way... when I used it I used it straight... put it in a dropper bottle, shook it, and then rubbed the dropper across my face a couple of times. That was probably a somewhat higher dose than you\'re using in your 2-3 oz of cologne...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

ill try a higher dosage but the aftershave is going to give me a headache..ha.....so how long did it take before you started to notice the effect? Its strange you know....it suggests that most people dont notice changes until their 3rd day.....and others dont notice until 3 to 4 weeks. Why would that be?

[Whitehall]

I would speculate that a time delay could occur because the ingredients in Athena X10 serve as \"food\" for various skin bacteria. The bacteria change the ingredients into a byproduct, something active. If your skin has a low population of these special bacteria then the initial application would not see a high conversion into the active byproduct. After a few days application, the bacteria population will have increased substantially since you\'ve been feeding them and so the increased population will result in increased active byproducts.

Just an educated guess but maybe that\'s why my experiment with DHEA on the skin didn\'t product results - I didn\'t apply it long enough.

[Irish]

W. Cutler of Athena claims in her book \'Love Cycles\' that DHEA/DHEAS is a pheromone. An EROX-backed paper claims Athena-10x contains DHEA. That\'a what I\'m betting is in it - maybe other things too. If that\'s the \'active\' ingredient you could probably make your own real cheap from DHEA supplement capsules.

The experts can correct me on this, but I think DHEA is a precursor to testosterone, and testosterone is a precursor to the familiar steroid pheros that present themselves on our skin. So the theory could be that DHEA breaks down on the skin into something active, as Whitehall says. Or maybe Cutler thinks DHEA itself is a phero, as she seems to state in her book - a rather dramatic chapter is devoted to this \'discovery\'.

I dunno and haven\'t tested DHEA or -10x myself.

[Watcher]

DHEA (androsterone) in internal form has been shown to boost LH levels which are the precursor in the body help boost pheromone production and then to the skin the sweat breaks down the various compounds into pheromones.

James kohl is the one to ask, hes the one with the research maybe we could get phil stone as a forum member to help us out with some science information.

www.ecorp.com.au (\"http://www.ecorp.com.au\")

[xvs]

Interesting... I haven\'t read Cutler\'s book. I did see the reference to DHEA-S online, but thought it was speculation.

I happen to have some DHEA-S in my fridge, but haven\'t extensively used it. I decided that since it\'s unstable and requires refrigeration, it couldn\'t be what Athena uses. Maybe I\'ll break it out and try it again.

Some other people also made DHEA mixtures at about 1mg/ml which seems typical for pheromone mixes, and didn\'t get any obvious hits. But again, I don\'t know how much work they did.

I wrote to Athena asking them if they were using the known pheromones or something special. I told them I didn\'t want to know what the something special was or expect them to tell me if they were using something different from the others. Their response to this was to accuse me of trying to compete with them and threatening never to sell me any product again. They were VERY paranoid. I eventually convinced them that I wasn\'t trying to sell any products, but so far haven\'t reordered from them since, though I may. What I was trying to find out is just whether what they have is really different than what can be obtained elsewhere, so I know whether to pay their high prices ($100 for 1/6 oz of unknown concentration).

I\'ve been pretty happy with my results from -nol and -a1 so far. And one other substance I\'m selfishly not telling anyone about... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

ive emailed them before about a reciept....they seem courteous enough. But i have to admit 100 dollars is a little steep when you havent quite developed a trust for the product. Hey tell me your secret. Im sure im in not in the same proximity as you so there is no way ill come into contact with your hunting grounds. I could use a really hot date. heh...

[DrSmellThis]

Why not just take DHEA? Then you know it turns to mones.

Maybe somebody will experiment with DHEA sulfate. You could mix it with probiotics, H20, and let it fester. Who knows?

[xvs]

OK, I smeared a whole bunch of 2mg/ml DHEA-S on myself tonight before going out to the bars.

People did seem to like me quite a bit, but I don\'t know if it was more than usual, since I had a lot of friends around me who would probably have reacted positively no matter what.

I thought maybe I detected some overly friendly behavior on the part of some females, but I\'m not sure.

Maybe I\'ll try this for a few more days and report back.

[Watcher]

You actually smeared DHEA on youreself oh wait we do that everytime we use rone. Anyway it should have some effect im judging 2mg is quite a bit yeah when using pheromones we always seem to have quite a lot of friends it becomes useful after a while./

Lends credibility to my argument that most social friendships are formed on the basis of at least some sort of sexual orientated behaviour ie if i hang out with cool mr x then he gets women so if im seen around him then i have chance of getting the offcuts or on the flip side. The usuall the good looking guys go in groups - and girls do the same to increase the group chance of success.

[xvs]

Not DHEA. DHEA-S: DHEA-sulfate, the substance mentioned as supposedly being in 10x, which is unstable and requires refrigeration.

[Watcher]

Sorry xvs i got mixed up with my compounds, it would be interesting to see if it was the same compound as in athena on anonther front whitehall and others are trying to see if a1 is in realm for men. 2 questionable products and 2 different fronts. Maybe a futher field of research to combine the rest add none rol nol and couplins and come up with a super product. ?

[DrSmellThis]

The fact that DHEA-s is unstable is the whole point in it\'s favor -- unstable means vulnerable to be converted into other things by bacteria and fatty acids on the skin. Try mixing probiotics in first -- those same bacteria do exist on the skin naturally.

[Watcher]

I think by adding probotics you could be onto something drsmellthis. Assisting the bacteria is useful now all we need is something in mainstream phero products and we are under way. Could be NPA mystery ingredients. (idea only)

[DrSmellThis]

I wonder if butyric and capricylic acid, which are fatty acids found on women\'s skin and I think have a role in the production of copulins and/or other female pheromones in nature, would be useful also in this kind of experiment for men, to add to the mix and assist the breakdown of the DHEAS. We need the biochemists to speak up. These are readily available in health food stores. Butyr-en, one variety, has a pretty sexual smell all by itself.

One potential shortcoming, is that I don\'t believe DHEAS can be easily converted to testosterone , unlike regular DHEA (correct me if I\'m wrong). So that might eliminate that entire huge class of pheromones. Let me see, what else is on the skin? I s\'pose we could piss in it to boost the uric acid already found in skin. OK, my creative burst is over for now.

We are the cutting edge. (No pun intended.) /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[xvs]

I\'m actually not sure in what way it is unstable. My assumption was that it was chemically unstable, not merely good food for bacteria.

I found this in a web search, and it seems interesting:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/feb99-hormonesupp.html (\"http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/feb99-hormonesupp.html\")

\"One speculation put forth to me (by N.P. Durr of our staff) is that... because local application dramatically increases sebaceous gland activity, DHEA/S might therefore be a pheromone or pheromone producer.\"

So that would explain the idea that you have to wear Athena 10x for a few days, and also wear it regularly for it to work, if 10x really is DHEA-S. It\'s stimulating you to produce more of your own pheromones at the site of application, apparently.

Doing some further research, I came up with this one, which implies that DHEA-S in the blood is what stimulates the sebaceous glands in puberty... which also causes lots of pheromones to be produced? This again would make sense because a small amount of DHEA-S applied topically and directly to the sebaceous glands would stimulate them as well (potentially) as a larger amount circulating in the blood, assuming that the the same concentration is achieved at the glands in both cases:

Title: Sebaceous gland activity and serum dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels in boys and girls.
Author: Stewart ME , Downing DT , Cook JS , Hansen JR , Strauss JS
Source: Arch Dermatol, 128(10): 1345-8 1992

Abstract: BACKGROUND AND DESIGN--Increases in sebaceous gland activity are often the earliest sign of the approach of puberty in children. These increases have been attributed to increases in the secretion of adrenal androgens, but the supporting data are sparse and are based on measurements of urinary, rather than serum, androgen concentrations. In this study, we examined sebum composition, serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, and pubertal stage in 111 boys and girls, aged 2 to 15 years. Sebum composition was evaluated by measuring the ratio of wax esters/(cholesterol + cholesterol esters), a ratio known to increase with increasing sebaceous gland activity. RESULTS--Both wax esters/(cholesterol + cholesterol esters) ratios and serum dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels began to increase in children 7 to 10 years old. These changes occurred in many children before the appearance of any physical signs of puberty. Wax esters/(cholesterol + cholesterol esters) ratios were correlated with dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels in both boys and girls. In prepubertal children, the regression lines passed through the origin. In subjects who were in early or late puberty, the y intercepts of the regression lines had positive values. CONCLUSION--Adrenal androgens appear to be the major determinants of sebaceous gland activity during the prepubertal period and to be additive to another hormone or hormones during puberty.

[jvkohl]

The DHEA (S) approach has been discussed several times on this Forum. Cutler\'s research is questionable (some think her reports are ridiculous--Archives of Sexual Behavior Dec letter by Wysocki and Preti), and there is no reason that DHEA(S) is likely to be a pheromone. Yes, this adrenal androgen is produced in huge amounts, but on it\'s own it is unlikely to mean anything as a signal, or to be involved topically in the making of a signal. In contrast, the primary metabolites of DHEA are androsterone (as in SOE) and etiocholanolone. A/E ratios are different in men and women, vary with age, and --what I think is extremely interesting--vary with sexual orientation. Gay males have A/E ratios characteristic of females. So, it makes sense to add androsterone --which should increase the masculine appeal of your natural scent. It does not make sense to use DHEA or DHEA(S) and hope that it converts to an active pheromone. Might just as well apply testosterone topically--there won\'t be any effect. On the other hand, taking oral DHEA as a supplement might be a good idea. Predictably,males would increase their A/E ratios (women, not a good idea for you to do this--except in very small amounts 25mg max--or you may start to mascunlinize with dark hair on your lip etc.) I\'m still working on writing all the info on androsterone into a paper that people can understand. Trouble is, I don\'t understand all the steroid hormone biochemistry--and have yet to meet any of my colleagues who understand it well enough to help.

Enough rambling. The biggest issue with Cutler is her failure to present any research at any olfactory conference during the past 10 years or so. If she were making any real progress with pheromone research, that\'s the place to present findings that may or may not pass peer review (as in review by people who know about what she\'s researching). Personally, I think that she avoids such presentations because she lacks credibility by most of the people who do attend.

[xvs]

JVK:

I understand what you just said, but look at the references I cited. It seems that TOPICAL DHEA-S is known to stimulate the sebaceous glands to produce steroids -- ie: pheromones.

In this case, it\'s not that the DHEA-S itself IS the pheromone or that it\'s breakdown products or metabolic products are the pheromones -- what may be the case is that it stimulates the glands to produce OTHER pheromones.

I find this very interesting, especially given the fact that:

- Athena says you have to wear 10x at least 3 times a week
- They say it may take 2-3 weeks to have an effect
- They say it doesn\'t work for everyone

This all is consistent with the idea that they are using something which stimulates the user to produce their own elevated levels of pheromones. Since they are already on record as saying DHEA-S is important, these facts about what DHEA-S does when applied topically all add up.

Also given the fact that 10x DID work for me (for at least a while), and I therefore believe there\'s something to it, I think that I\'ve just figured out, through those citations, what\'s going on with it.

[Whitehall]

My understanding is that there are three types of DHEA.

1) The basic stuff is DHEA

2) In the bloodstream some DHEA is in the form of S-DHEA which is analogous to bound and unbound testosterone.

3) The third type is keto-DHEA. This is sold commercially as a form that replicates the direct actions of DHEA in the body yet does not convert into sex hormones as DHEA does. In other words, it does not serve as a steroid precursor in the body.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i hope you are right cause im eager to see some benefits.

[Andy]

<blockquote><font class=\"small\">In reply to:</font><hr>


- Athena says you have to wear 10x at least 3 times a week
- They say it may take 2-3 weeks to have an effect
- They say it doesn\'t work for everyone


<hr></blockquote>

I\'ve seen that before, reffering to -none products. My personal impression is, that this \"rules\" have been set up to make mo cash dude. Basically it says : \"You have to use it often to work\" (I want to make more money).

[xvs]

Did you people bother to read the research abstract I posted and my analysis of it?

Summary:
If Athena 10x contains DHEA-S, it probably will cause you to produce more pheromones if you wear it consistently.

This is what the research above implies.

Thanks for your time /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[xvs]

JVK? Any comment on the above?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey xvs i just got my jb1 mix and it seems to do very well. I would have to try it out more just to make sure its just not a placebo for me. But i still have this 140 dollar pheromone mix of 10x and tommy hil that i dont want to waste. So far it hasnt done too much for me. I only tested it for a week or more so maybe it hasnt gone into effect. I checked out your article about steroids and pheromone production. It was encouraging i hope i become a human chemical factory and drive the women crazy. You think more is better? Not speaking for myself but i know kids who used to take steroids when i was an undergraduate. Students used to frontload the stuff to get the desired jumpstart.

[HB_88]

I bought some 10x before finding love-scent. 10x didn\'t seem to do anything for me. (While wearing it, I mistakenly thought I\'d gotten a DIHL from a blue-eyed female co-worker; her pupils were huge. I later realized that they always look that way, exaggerated by her eye color.) However, consider this:
<a target=\"_blank\" href=http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992068> New Scientist Article </a>
New Sci is a perfectly reputable website. It seems that 10x\'s counterpart, a women\'s formulation called 10:13 actually does work... for women.

HB_88

[**DONOTDELETE**]

http://www.athenainstitute.com/mediaarticles/abcnews.html (\"http://www.athenainstitute.com/mediaarticles/abcnews.html\")
here is another article that helps demonstrate that athenas products dont entirely work well for men. It could be due to culture or it could be due to the ingredients.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

After reading this thread, I was tempted to try this product and see if it works. Hopefully, I\'m not wasting my money. Have any women in the past used this product? With what results? I\'ll keep you posted when I receive the product.