Molecular structure of -Nol, -None, -Rone

[MaxiMog]

Does anyone here know the formula of either of those, or what the molecules themselves look like, through pictures or so?
It can give some insight on how they react to certain circumstances. Also, they say -Nol can convert to -None, so it should be rather easy to see what exactly changes in the -Nol molecule to change to -None.

[Watcher]

It would seem that nol does convert to none.
Now consider rone and androstadinenone. (Thats a1 and give us some information and anyone else.)

[Irish]

http://www.leffingwell.com/chirality/androstenone.htm (\"http://www.leffingwell.com/chirality/androstenone.htm\")

[MaxiMog]

That\'s pretty interesting. Thanks.

It seems that there are two \'different\' molecules of androstenone: actually they are assymetric ,or different as it\'s like there\'s just been placed a mirror next to the structure formula of one of them i.e. optically different. (+ and -). One of them is odorless (+). The other is urinous (-). So as e.g. ODing on PI/m makes it smell urinous, it\'s probably (-)-androstenone. Now is the ODing caused by the smell or the concentration, or both?

[HB_88]

I don\'t want to get my hopes up, but -- does the non-smelly \"+\" molecular type have the same effect on women as the ordinary (smelly) type does? If so, labs should just crank the stuff out by the ten-gallon drum, and we won\'t have to worry about overdosing! Or, does the \"+\" form have a completely different effect, or no effect whatsoever?

HB_88

[**DONOTDELETE**]

This was up in the earlyer forum, as there was some concern of the weaker scent of A1 compared to -none. I think we concluded that only the smelly enantiomer works for our purposes.

Try a search for enantiomere or urinous or something if you want to check it out.

[xvs]

Only the smelly ones work.

But from what I understand, it\'s very unlikely we\'d get any of the unsmelly enantiomers because of the sythesies which are used, and the organic starting molecules they work with.

This, at least, is what I was lead to believe when I talked to a chemist.

Any other chemists here care to comment?

[FerroMone]

Well when we order Androstenone crystals from Sigma and other lab suppliers from China, they both say that these steroid compounds are of Vegetable origin and does not contain human substances. So these phero\'s comes from vegetable compounds and then by some complex chemical reaction they can convert it to steroids. Actually these is a series of chemical reactions.

As for the Androstenone, well i got the non-smelly androstenone. If you mix it with alcohol, it has a weak scent of menthol or camphor.

[FerroMone]

ANDROSTENOL

16, (5á)-ANDROSTEN-3á-OL
Melting Point:
136-139°C

Rotation:
+17.5°

Molecular Weight:
274.44

Formula:
C19 H30 O

Common Names:
3á-HYDROXY-5á-ANDROST-16-ENE
OCCLESTEROL

[FerroMone]

ANDROSTENONE
16, (5á)-ANDROSTEN-3-ONE

Melting Point:
139-141°C

Rotation:
+32.3°

Molecular Weight:
272.43

Formula:
C19 H28 O

Common Names:
3-KETO-5á,16-ANDROSTENE
OCCLESTERONE

[FerroMone]

ANDROSTERONE
5á-ANDROSTAN-3á-OL-17-ONE

Melting Point:
183-184°C

Rotation:
+88.8° Diox

Molecular Weight:
290.44

Formula:
C19 H30 O2

Common Names:
ANDROSTERONE
3á-HYDROXY-5á-ANDROSTAN-17-ONE
3á-HYDROXYETIOALLOCHOLAN-17-ONE

[FerroMone]

ANDROSTADIENONE
4, 16-ANDROSTADIEN-3-ONE

Melting Point:
138-138.5°C

Rotation:
+125°

Molecular Weight:
270.41

Formula
C19 H26 O

[FerroMone]

ESTRATETRAENOL
1, 3, 5(10), 16-ESTRATETRAEN-3-OL

Melting Point:
135-137°C

Rotation:
+133° meOH

Molecular Weight:
268.39

Formula:
C19 H24 O

[FerroMone]

DHEA SULFATE ( phero used in Athena 10X ?? )
5-ANDROSTEN-3â-OL-17-ONE SULPHATE, SODIUM SALT

Melting Point:
167-168°C

Rotation:
+10.7°

Molecular Weight:
390.47

Formula:
C19 H27 Na O5 S

Trivial Names:
DEHYDROEPIANDROSTERONE SODIUM SULPHATE

[MaxiMog]

LOL. That explains a lot... Thanks!!!!!!

[xvs]

I doubt DHEA sulfate is used in Athena 10x because it is unstable and requires refrigeration, while the Athena 10x is supposedly stable for 2 years without refrigeration.

[Watcher]

Must be something else i have seen dr dodds site and he claims over 20 pheromonal like compounds (apparently he discovered nol) is really famous and is the creator of xcite wipes and pheromonal factor.?

[Whitehall]

I once mixed up some DHEA in alcohol and sprayed on various parts of the body in an effort to see if it converted on the skin to a recognizable pheromone.

No new scent noticed - negative results.

[FerroMone]

Well, at least we know that it doesn\'t work. But how about DHEA Sulfate ?

[DrSmellThis]

As far as I know DHEA is a pre-pheromone, and requires various things internal to the body (maganese, zinc, etc.) to convert it to all the pheromones. For the hell of it I once tried mashing it up and dissolving it, and spreading it on myself, without positive results. Why should DHEA sulfate be any different?

[DrSmellThis]

Incidentally, Watcher, every professional perfumer has access to way over 30 pheromone-like compounds. It just depends on their personal knowledge, budget, and interests. I don\'t know how many there are. Professional perfuming is like a satanic cult in it\'s secrecy. It has been researching these things for many years. I don\'t even think much of it is new knowledge. It\'s too bad these things are so inaccesible to lay folks.

[Irish]

W. Cutler of Athena fame declares in her book \'Love Cycles\' that DHEAS is a phero.

The boys from EROX declare in their famous paper (famous around here - called \'Perfumery & the 6th Sense\') that DHEA is used in Athena-10X. They also declare that DHEA and its sulfate are not active in the human VNO. Of course, nothing they don\'t have a patent on is active in the VNO according to them, but I tend to believe them anyway - esp. about DHEA.

[FerroMone]

Well of course, if it doesn\'t activate the VNO it does not mean that it does not wrok. It has been found also that Andrsotenone and Androstenol does not activate the VNO but it works right ?

[Irish]

Sure, it\'s possible that pheros work throught the main olfactory system - in pigs both the VNO pathway and the olfactory pathways process phero signals. Also in rabbit pups I think. There\'s still controversy about whether the human VNO is hooked up to the brain anyway, or whether it\'s just a nonfunctional relic. I tend to think it\'s functional, but the other pathway may be used as well.

My main problem with the idea that the olfactory pathway is the only human phero channel is a practical one from our standpoint. Since the olfactory pathway is wired to the conscious brain (obvious? we consciously detect odors), does that mean a phero would have to be consciously detected to work? That\'s an issue cause we are covering the conscious smell of pheros with cologne, cause they stink. But I have read lately about blind smell and unconscious odor effects on humans, so I guess I answed that concern for myself - it\'s at least possible that covered odors of pheros could have an unconscious effect on humans, even if transmitted through the olfactory channel.

[FerroMone]

I think covered odors of phero still has an effect in the brain coz the important thing is the phero is still present in the perfume.

[Irish]

Yep, that\'s what we\'re all hoping. Otherwise we\'re wasting our money masking the phero odor with cologne.

I\'ve used these products enough to believe there is a subconscious effect from pheros even when the odor is covered with cologne. I\'ve always been extremely sensitive to good hygeine, so when I started using these products I was spooked to say the least by the bad smell. I\'ve always taken great care to cover the stench with designer cologne, and gotten amazing hits that I didn\'t get when I was half my current age. Nol+cologne and NPA+cologne just work too well for me not to believe in unconscious effects...

[xvs]

Some research has been done which shows that levels of pheromones too low to be detected as an odor still produce a response.

The VNO apparently doesn\'t produce a \"smell\" response: that\'s handled by different parts of the nose. And pheromones which have a high affinity for receptors in the VNO may not have as high a receptivity for the odor detecting receptors elsewhere in the nose.

So masked pheromones should work.

On the other hand, I rarely mask them.

Remember: women don\'t smell these the same way men do. Men tend to detect more odor in male pheromones and women detect less odor but have a greater VNO response.

[FerroMone]

I thought women are more sensitive to pheros than men?

Dou you think that it would be better if the manufacturer can refine their process to make pheros that smell less.

[Walter_Mitty]

Refine the process to make the cmpd smell less? What? I think that we are pretty darn lucky to have the fine folks at Stone Labs to provide us with the pure stuff. They smell, rats, oh well... But, they are the real deal. I have a hard time understanding why folks are so fixated on covering the smell of pheros. Sure they smell, well, less than great. But, if the folks in evolution are right, the smell is not what we are after. I suppose that is what we are banking on. If you cover your mix with with aroma, fine, different set o\' nerves picking up on differerent things. But, please, the pure things have a unique odor. That is just life.

[FerroMone]

Well, I have been using pheros in pure form so that i can be rest assured that i am using the real thing. Well, I am not masking their scent, and i can smell the -NONE,-RONE it is pretty strong and just 2 dabs of it is already very detectable with my own nose. I am just worried that the GIRLS will be able to smell my pheros. And the worst thing is that they might smell it as BO or something.

[xvs]

To clarify what I said before:

- There are at least two places which pheromones can work in the olfactory system.
- In one of these places, (the VNO) they cause a pheromone response but no scent response (ie: they work, but you can\'t smell them).
- In the other place they cause a scent response (ie: can be smelled) but probably no pheromone response.

- Male pheromones elicit more of a scent response IN MALES (ie: you can smell them).
- Male pheromones elicit less of a scent response and more of a pheromone response in females (ie: they smell them less, but have a pheromone reaction to them).

This has been proven with respect to some pheromones by looking at the binding sensitivity of the pheromones to receptors in the different parts of the nose in males and females.

Bottom line: Just because you smell it doesn\'t mean she does.