Lots of articles on how good guys winning but...

[Watcher]

Im reading plenty of articles on how good /nice guys are not being attacked and put down by females in society in general and how they get such a good deal (i however do not). One of the reality shows here in oz called big brother have been won twice by good guys/nice guy type of characters and the newspaper reporter (a woman) was saying how men who are nice get a good deal in life while the bad boys get no where.

BUT

when it comes to sex the bad boys still get it and the good guys get left on the shelf (interesting how the articles are coming out in local papers related to articles discussed here on the forum weeks proceeding) well it is a very good source of stories being popluar and very conterversial and related to sex as this forum is. Although it tends to take the feminist nice nice attitude prevelant in society well guess what youre wrong people the output here is the most spot on as reality should be. SO believe the attitudes here because they represent the last bit of reality left in this [censored] up world.

[Watcher]

Bump within 10 minutes this post is already at the bottom anyone care to comment discussion can be a mans worst enemy allows women to over analyse and the idea of action change can be swolled whole through excessive verbalisation and not enough action.

[Watcher]

Bump

[Watcher]

Someone comment on this please lol.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

personally from my observations, woman go for funny blokes, they always seem to do very well at pulling. Although your theory of the bad boy is true, so i would suggest, and i do this......
When your with a girl act like your the funniest guy on the planet, and than when they are gone, treat them mean, trust me this drives them crazy, and they love it, and so do i LOL

[a.k.a.]

There are passive “nice guys” and aggressive “nice guys”. If you’re truly nice and have the balls to go out and introduce yourself to lots of women, you’ll get laid.
Many guys that consider themselves nice are just passive creeps. That is they care only about themselves, their shallow pleasures and their big fat egos. But they don’t have the balls to show themselves for what they are. So they act well mannered and pretend they’re interested in a woman’s mind/character/personality.
With “bad boys” (selfish creeps that have the balls to admit it), at least women know what they’re getting into.

[proteus]

well as a recovering \"nice/good\" guy all I have to say is that when I revert back to being the stereotypical nice guy the interest level from ladies in me goes way down, whereas when I adopt certain alpha male characteristics, I have no problem getting dates/getting laid etc. It\'s a sad truth, but if I adopt some of the tactics suggested on places like fastseduction.com and ignore the nonsense advice (for men) from female relationship \" experts \" to be nice, sensitive, thoughtful, listen blahblahblah etc. , my success with ladies goes way up. Now combine these strategies with phero products and it is a lethal combo. Nice/good guys do get gfs/married/get laid etc. but not as easily as the bad boys. Funny thing is every once in awhile I will revert to my old self and guess what another long dry spell so I\'ve about had it and figure if the only way to be successful with the opposite sex is to be the alpha so be it. I know there are many folk who are nice etc/ who are successful with women but I can only speak from my experience and this is what I have observed. Two diff. gals I knew in college - one in my sophomore year , other in my senior year - became very close with each, they\'d always say how \"nice\" I was etc., go to the lunch/dinner/movies etc with them all the time but no sex - everytime I tried to initiate things etc \"lets just be friends/don\'t see you like that/don\'t want to lose your friendship\" but when I try step away they cockblock me with other fems. And in each case eventually an alpha came along and within a week or two of meeting him they\'d be sleeping with him, he\'d dump them after some time, they\'d be crying on my shoulder and so on and so forth. To make a long story short, knowing what I know now from fastseduction and the pheros etc. I know exactly what I did wrong and one of the gals I\'m still friends with and used JB#1 with her, follow the advice on fastseduction and guess who\'s pursuing me now?? I fully intend to sleep with her if I can as she\'s giving me lots of signals, but unlike before I\'m not focused on her and I\'m seeing other ladies right now so I guess all this competition/lack of attention from me is getting her interested hey?!. I apologise if I\'ve offended any ladies on this board with my comments and I do recognise there are a lot of quality women out there just looking for someone nice and decent and if I met one of these ladies I\'d marry her in a sec., but I have had no luck finding a lady like this so...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

great thread proteus.
Its defiinately made me think

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'ve known this one guy for about 3 years, he being 5\' 3\" is even shorter than me, but you should SEE that little guy work his mojo! The dude got so many women that it was scaring me! And that puzzled the sh*t out of me, until I read the info on fastseduction.com and realized this guy actually was a GENIUS! He would always talk loud, boisterously, touch women when it SEEMED uninvited, etc. I have always been a semi-dormant Dominant male, but we could ALL learn a lesson from this guy, BE LOUD, LAUGH LOUD, TOUCH WOMEN! Of course, I should advise that you use the last one sparingly, lest you get nailed on sexual harassment charges /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif but I have been experimenting, and the louder I get; the more the ladies flock.

\'Slinger out.

[jose]

My experience is that what many of us guys try to do to attract women, ie. buying gifts, doing favors, constantly giving complements etc. It\'s seen by women to be weak, needy, and UN-attractive with ulterior motives. You have to be a little bit of a bad boy with a cocky attitude but at the same time don\'t look like a Dick. I find making women laugh and teasing them works wonders, also NOT bending over backwards to please them. Time and time again I find women say they want a man that can make them laugh,and not take any of their mind games. If you haven\'t noticed women do test us constantly, just be prepared for that and you\'ll do fine.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

geees... is it really so hard to turn to a jerk from a nice guy when you wanna get laid?

[Andy]

That\'s right jose, mix some dry black humor, some teasing humor, add a good load of sexual oriented conversationand and say \"no\" once in a while to mark the territory of your will. Don\'t act like you are a completely stupid dumbass, just mix it in well parts. Mones are just the cream of the crop, a tool to make it easier.

[Watcher]

Bump anyone who doesnt regulary comment would like to add 2 cents worth or even some females points of view would be good to even up the information being presented.

[rjm]

Poster: Kamikaze
Subject: Re: Lots of articles on how good guys winning but...

geees... is it really so hard to turn to a jerk from a nice guy when you wanna get laid?


K,

YES. A bit of personal: I was raised during childhood by my grandparents (mom was divorced); I was an Altar Boy (yes, literally); I was taught to help everyone because they\'re [insert relationship here]. That has gotten me nowhere. I *SHOULD* have a fantastic life, be married to a wonderful woman, and have the kids my neighbors do. Well, through three decades of trying to be the nice guy, helping everyone without asking for anything in return, \"seeing the good inherent in everyone, regardless of who they are,\" and showing my own \"inner good,\" since \"it\'s what\'s *INSIDE* that matters,\" I have none of the life that I believe I should have.

I\'ve been told that I\'m \"too good,\" that I \"try too hard,\" that [here it is, guys] I\'m \"a really good friend,\" [ARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHH] and that \"it would ruin our friendship.\"

I\'ll agree that I *AM* too good for those females. The friendships ended anyway.

Now, I\'m *FINALLY* on the mission. If I lose a few people in the process, so be it, but I\'m taking care of me. In some respects, I have probably become a jerk, though I\'m no longer a doormat. I\'ll be nice, but I ain\'t no slave.

Yes, it IS hard to change from nice-guy to jerk; it takes a lot of self-retraining. I\'ve been, and continue to be, working on it. It\'s a matter, at least in my case, of walking away from your entire background and all that you\'ve been taught.

BTW, I recently picked up a book, one of several, called \"SELF MATTERS.\" It\'s by Phillip McGraw. It reflects exactly my new philosophy. I\'d been beginning it already anyway, so it\'s not just a confirmation / validation of what I\'ve been doing, but somewhat of a \"how-to\" for those of us who\'ve always wanted to change but didn\'t know how.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i completely agree with you proteus. if a quality woman came along, i wouldn\'t care for other women...but they are becoming so hard to find...

if i could find a great girl, i\'d commit myself to her, but for now, it\'s just about getting some action...sad but true

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i feel for you RJM...it took me about a year to overcome it all...because you realize that people really aren\'t so special if they treat you like crap...so don\'t deal with it don\'t waste your time with em...don\'t hold grudges but basically don\'t let it bother you...just be like \"yea yea whatever i gotta get laid now see you later\" or somethin sarcastic haha. i still believe in goodness and all that but it doesn\'t apply to girls right now. just do what you want to do and believe in yourself...when you want to be nice to someone, they will come and they\'ll deserve it from you
good luck

[**DONOTDELETE**]

but what do you mean about treat them mean when they\'re gone?

[rjm]

Thanks... It\'s been a difficult ride, but it\'s getting easier. Hell, I didn\'t even mean ONLY females, though that\'s really the primary focus of this board. It\'s become everybody, once I stepped back and looked in from the outside.

Here\'s a thought that sticks in my mind from that book (paraphrased):
- People tell you that you shouldn\'t be so focused on yourself, because they\'d prefer you to be focused on THEM. -

It\'s true, if you step back and look at things, but it\'s a b**ch to try to undo your upbringing.

So, JPGR, how did you overcome the \"nice guy\" disease?


Ahhhhh, well. I\'m feeling better in the life I\'m developing.

\'til later!

[Bruce]

This is a good thread. It comes up every now and then. I always want to jump in, but a good response takes so long to formulate.
So....
I have to go with the \"be the good guy\" road, but with a few important clarifications:

A. When I say the \"good guy\", by that I don\'t mean a \"goody goody\" type. Guys like that are often:
- perceived as zeros who have no back bone
- butt kissers to all forms of authority both good and bad
- opportunists
- guilt-ridden
(this list could go on and on, but you probably get the idea)

B. As I\'ve said before women (just like men) are programmed from childhood to be attracted to certain types of men. Some of these presets are healthy and some of them are self-destructive. They are hard to change. I\'ve seen a lot of blaming going on that it is somehow the fault of females in general that they are fataly attracted to jerks, but 1. I don\'t think that is true of all women and 2. I think that this \"fatal\" (unhealthy might be a better word) attraction is more a feedback loop than a one-sided situation. IE: Guys who are subconsciously looking for messed up women are getting turned down with the groveling routine when they could be scoring with healthy women who they are currently ignoring because they are \"good girls\".

C. Finally, I think we need to take a look at the concepts of authenticity and credibility. IMO, women more so than men are concerned with trust in relationships, which is about believing that the person you are talking to is \"for real\". Maybe it really IS better to be an authentic jerk than to be a phony goody goody groveling for the crumbs off a woman\'s table, but you can also be authentically helpful, friendly, cheerful etc and clean up with women who are headed in a healthy direction, looking for a good husband and father.

My 2 cents,
Bruce

[**DONOTDELETE**]

woman are funny creatures, however much we try to figure them out, the more dis-illusioned we will become!!!!

i give up trying to impress the ladies, im gonna be myself, and if they dont like it, than they know what they can do /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[jose]

I recommend going to the WebSite www.Askmen.com (\"http://www.Askmen.com\") the articles are interesting and you get a better inside look into a woman\'s behavior. The best articles are from doc LOVE, he also sells a book which is dead on about women.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

totally agreed bruce...but at my age women aren\'t really looking for a good husband and father etc...and also, what guarantees they\'ll be a good wife and mother?

but i think as women grow older they mature and tend to like the nice guy a little more...but when i mean nice i mean responsible and strong and all, not a jerk but a true gentleman who cares has feelings thinks beyond sex
is sensitive but strong etc.

but right now in the college years, i think pretty much being a \"cool\" badass who does what he wants to do and knows what he is doing is the way to go IF you just wanna get laid

to somewhat compromise with myself, i\'ve given up on pursuing relationships for now with the mindset that when the \"quality girl\" comes i\'ll be committed to her...but she is so hard to find that the only thing i\'m interested in is a woman\'s body etc...it\'s sad but true...so right now i\'m just going with the flow, always remembering what i\'m truly looking for but in the meantime just satisfying natural urges

and how did i change?
hmm first my physical image...look much more \"cool\" now people are really amazed

i plan to be a really good human being (father & husband) in the future, but right now i\'ve concentrated on keeping myself focused and happy...so now i don\'t care about random girls or strangers, i don\'t get attached to them, i simply wanna bang them, and somehow this is acceptable, at least much more than wanting a relationship

i tell myself that i don\'t have to be mean
to get girls i don\'t have to stop being nice...but i have to be more flirtatious and friendly and much more easy to figure out than rather the nice guy type who seems fishy perhaps or just asexual or whatever...either one is bad

i just say what i want to say, make fun of really hot girls, embarass them and kinda be cocky...if i ever come across a nice girl and she gets pissed, i apologize real smoothly and then she forgives me and it turns out that we become real close friends and she terms me as the \"coolest guy she ever met\"...so if you are ever worried about how your being cocky and jerky will turn off a nice girl, well don\'t worry just say you were playing, be sincere and let them know the real you and they\'ll be happy to make up

good luck to all

[Whitehall]

What\'s a \"Good Guy?\"

Maybe the question should be \"What\'s a Good Man in our time and place?\" Young women often don\'t have a clear idea of what a good man is although they know they want and need one. The easiest way for them to tell is how independent he acts - that\'s why \"youthful rebellion\" is so common - whether its needed or not. That \"rebellion\"signals a courage to accept the consequences and that\'s attractive no matter the content of the rebellion.

When they get a little experience, women realize that a man who\'s groveling at their feet is probably doing so because other females are also rejecting him. Likewise man who is telling her everything she wants to hear is probably making a bunch of it up. That\'s a loser \"good guy.\" A man who has his boundaries and knows and asserts his self-interest in a civilized manner (a winner good guy) therefore presents a good first impression.

What I\'ve found about myself that seems appealing to women is the ability to provide clear guidence as to how to live one\'s life. Think about how successful preachers are reported to be with their female followers - clearly stating how you think one should behave is very helpful and reassuring to women in our changing and confusing times. Look at women\'s magazines for a clue as to how uncertain and confused women are. Like in the Jimmy Buffet song, \"she\'s looking for a man with a strong mind.\"

One doesn\'t need to be a \"bad boy\" - someone anti-social - to be successful with women. You do need to be confident and have a vision of the future for yourself and maybe for that right woman (and your offspring.) Having a plan for your life presupposes having the courage to attempt to make that plan reality.

Over the course of my life, a number of the women who in their younger years dismissed me as too much a \"good guy\" have come back and seemed much more appreciative with a little maturity.

So my advice to the younger guys is think ahead for your life, make a plan, and show the courage and perserverance to live up to it.

[Andy]

It\'s like you want to have sex with a woman because no other has let you come near her undies, or you just want her because you want her. Don\'t seem needing, seem wanting. Strange, but I think you got it. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Btw, ever said to a woman : \"You have to come with me now if you want to have the best and most ecstatic sex of your life\" ?
This started as a joke, advanced to a bet and worked at last. I am not sure how chances are and most likely you\'ll return with a red cheek, but isn\'t fun worth a lot ? Especially if you might have a great night and 2 bottles of Jim Beam additionally /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[rjm]

Okay, I\'m leaning more toward JPGR\'s view... It\'s just fun; never mind seeing God because I\'m sharing an experience of absolute love with her...

JPGR:
How did you change your image? I\'ve been working on my Bowflex and trying to eat better; quitting smoking is the next hurdle, for which I already have the patch. I also recently have been buying those wild shirts from Hot Topic (chain?) and other stores. Hell, I got rid of a pain-in-the-butt Chrysler sedan and bought a Fiero GT (yeah, yeah, it still gets looks, even better than my \'73 Chrysler.)

Whitehall:
I partially disagree with your assessment about teens acting as they do to demonstrate Alpha status. At least in my experience, the rebellion is an attempt to find oneself. That\'s a challenge I never really wished to take on; just figured I was doing what was right - what I was told was right, but have chosen to do completely, because I\'m sick of what I was.
As far as women coming back with more maturity, I\'ve been rather fortunate, in that after I regained my sanity and self-respect, and left them, I\'ve only crossed paths with ONE, and she was married at that point.
As far as teh \"bad boy\" image goes, I hope you\'re right. I\'m not going to waste my time getting into trouble for an image. I will, however hold to my standards.

Bruce:
As always, your insights are inspirational. My mistake in life was to be the \"goody-goody\" type. I wouldn\'t say I had no backbone, though that may well have been the case in some situations... I just put more weight to being with her, than to what we were doing, or where we were going. One thing I have always been though, is authentic; what I am is what I am, even though one or two things about me may be a bit unnerving to some; it is what I am. Amazingly, *I* who have always gone out of my way to not be a jerk, authentic or otherwise, have always been the one taken for granted.
Oh yeah -- I wasn\'t implying that that was directed at me, though it may read that way... We all know these morons; one girl I know seems to find them in droves, and even after she breaks up with them, she stays \"friends\" with them. So, she must be so insecure and dysfunctional that she LIKES the jerks. I feel sorry for her, sort of...

Hence the changes.

Ace:
Cheerio, dude!

Wow, long post... Ahhh well, self-analysis is so much cheaper, and you can\'t be blackmailed with it! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

what did i do specifically? got contacts and an earring, started working out, wore better clothes because too many girls told me the importance of it to them (is the guy well dressed? personally i think it\'s lame)...i started becoming more flirtatious almost outrageous doing whatever the hell iwanted to do saying whatever i wanted to say and NOT treating hot girls like they were anything special

[Watcher]

If all else fails OD on none and repel all the annoying ones then work on self improvement until you have what you want this co-incides with the looking after the self routine.

[rjm]

Ain\'t it a kick in the teeth though, how we are the shallow ones, but we have to dress better for them?

I find myself disagreeing with Watcher to some extent though; I find that acting as though you own the place you\'re in helps a lot. People seem to read that as confidence. Of course, I also have a very suspicious mind, so I\'m always watching for games. For example, the next time that girl bites me, it had best be a part of something much more fun to come! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[proteus]

was at the fast seduction site and there was a link there to this article on \"nice guys\" (written by some female I guess) at the \"Heartless Bitches\" website (yup - that\'s what they call their website!!). I think any guy who perceives themselves as a nice guy needs to read this as it gives great insight to how women generally perceive guys like this and confirms in my mind why you can\'t win at this game if you are \"nice\" as it will be perceived as \"weakness\" by most, so the only way to go is to be alpha and always be congruent to that at all times. Anyway the link is below if anyone wants to read:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml (\"http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml\")

[**DONOTDELETE**]

haha yea sad but true
a lot of nice guys think the more caring and love they show to a girl she\'ll fall in love with him or something because he really will do everything for her...but that\'s the movies
i feel bad for the nice guys though, so i\'ve made it my hobby to help em get the right attitude cuz i used to be a nice guy myself

[slatedrake]

Read the \"Heartless Bitches\" article at:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml (\"http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml\")

I pretty much agree with everything written there...hell, I\'d like to meet the woman that wrote it, she knows what she\'s talking about.

Too often, the \"nice guys\" I\'ve know have been exactly as described, insecure boys that can\'t relate to woman as other people and put them up on these pedistals. Guys that want to save woman are the worst too....give me a break!

I think that article made a ton of sense. Be yourself, love yourself, treat woman like you would treat a buddy of yours, stop bullshitting them and start listening.

I don\'t know, I haven\'t had all that much trouble finding cool girls.

Slate

[Watcher]

I just like to be conversial i hear this from friends of mine all the time im a nice guy why doesnt she go for me bla bla i still am like that a little but with so much bullshit going on latley its time to concentrate on self development (heck there being nothing wrong with looking after oneself first and taking a break from the dating game - it is actively encouraged by women so why not. They might not so much attention from me but hey go find another nice guy. All is fair in love and war. Especially with todays society aggressive attitude, take advantage of everyone around think of the self first i recon more people should do it actually and stop complaining about how nasty the world is - make it nastier.

[DrSmellThis]

Looking at it as \"nice versus jerks\" traps us men into an old self-defeating prison created by women who have stereotyped that men are either \"nice\" or jerks. I didn\'t say \"IMHO\" because we should never apologize for having an opinion. \"Alpha male\" means for me coming into my own as a male: I don\'t give a rat\'s *&^ what women or anyone else thinks. I know I\'m a great guy. I\'m certainly dominant compared to a woman. I like sharing power, but if women disrespect me by trying to dominate me they are going to lose. I\'m willing to act like an [censored] if that\'s what someone makes themselves into seeing out of me. It\'s not my responsibility to waste time trying to make Jerry Springer rejects understand me. If I decide I want something I will have it, including a woman. A woman can decide \"no,\", but most women will allow themselves to be owned and taken, because they are not fully conscious of their choices. That is one reason, but not the only reason, why \"nice\" guys feel unreasonably rejected. \"Nice\" guys, the way \"nice\" is typically happening, are just nice to get approval, not because that\'s who they are. Of course, there has to be some chemistry, sexiness and sweetness there for me to want it. Women do not have what men have physically, sexually, emotionally, and cognitively, and they sorely need it. God they are aching for it, and I might just have to give it to a few of them. We own the alpha male attitude. It is us. We are not altar boys. Deal.

[Whitehall]

ditto

[a.k.a.]

Great article!

With regards to being alpha... It’s all fine for work and career advancement, but the most I could feel for a submissive woman would be pity.

[DrSmellThis]

Nature is constant, so I like to go with it rather than fight it. Women seem to like a man to have some dominant qualites. Perhaps it makes them feel safe and stable. When all is said and done, we\'re all equals in the dance, but somebody has to lead to make it fun. We don\'t have to act fake, and neither do they. For men, most of us have insecurities, neediness and shame that makes us try to be artificially \"nice\", which is different from compassionate, caring, sensitive, and sweet. Nice is nutrasweet.

aka I agree with you if you mean a woman with no spine; no perspective she owns up to; no responsibility for what she wants and does. This is pitiful, just like the nutrasweet man.

[CptKipling]

From that heartless bitches website:

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after \"hard luck\" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are \"helpers\". A Nice Guy thinks that by \"helping\" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.


And yet this is another reason that some women go for jerks! (Ooh i just love picking open someone\'s argument!)

Anyone want to pick up on the psychological implications of this? To be honest, i cant pin them down, but there is something...

[rjm]

Yeah, I got the \"nice guy\" bit too, and some of it may have been from seeking approval... That\'s why I\'m still single.

ANYway, Watcher makes a good point in that you have to take care of yourself first. If you don\'t take care of yourself, you can\'t take care of others -- you know, the whole \"dead hero\" bit.

I don\'t feel pity anymore for those who are screwed up and don\'t do at least something to straighten themselves out. I don\'t mean the job; the clothes, or any of that; I mean look at what the influences were that brought you to where you are. If those influences are damaging, leave them behind! No, it won\'t be easy, but just as much as I have to deal with my upbringing, so does everyone else. I used to feel pity, but then, that\'s when I was psychic-vampire food; for better or worse, I actually feel contempt for a LOT of people who either are or were in my world; this is the whole bunch that just want to use me, and they\'ll use you too if you give them the chance.

I don\'t look for DST\'s \"hard luck\" cases; they seem to smell me out of a crowd, and this was BEFORE I found this place! These are the Psychic Vampires.


I printed the HB website article; will read it when I get home. BTW, how do you guys FIND all these cool sites; I wouldn\'t even think of looking for them! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Whitehall]

The end result is that alpha males get more and BETTER women. The \"nice guys\" have to hunt the dregs.

[Watcher]

As far as helping oneself get over those issues that hold them back well NLP is a extremely good technique once again and the MMA techniques also help (mind mapping association) before you ask what they are do a websearch and go find the stuff its to much to explain.
And make sure you are good, switch off the sex drive for a while and concentrate on youreself (women wont like it at all because you are not focusing on them but sometimes i say screw them anyway they waste so much time stroking our egos (feed youre own ego instead) and use a1 to improve the \"bitchy types\" mood or as has been said in the past \"attention whores\" - conterversial label designed to encourage some extreme views or attention seekers who are to lazy to actually follow through and are only after attention.
Hard luck cases in other words.

[franki]

What do you mean by switching the sex drive off? Should I stop masturbating, something that you talked about a lot but that is out of the question for me. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Franki /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[CptKipling]

No that would make you more horny.

He means stop thinking with your penis, to use a womans term.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t believe that a woman has responded yet.

First off, I\'ll start by saying that this thread is incredibly long. Therefore, I\'ve read most of but not all of the replies. Feel free to say something if i ask a question that\'s already been answered. Although I think my job here is to answer, not ask...

All right, here I go. Everyone wants to know why nice guys don\'t get anything from girls. Where to start...

I know plenty of nice guys. For one, many of them just aren\'t attractive enough for me. I don\'t know if looking good goes to your head or what but finding a nice, goodlooking guy is HARD. And I can\'t speak for the rest of the female population, but I\'m one of those gals who refuse to settle for less.

I\'m saddened to read that many of you actively repress your inner nice-guy to get chicks. You think that if you\'re a jerk, you\'ll get more girls. That\'s partially true, but nowhere near the answer. The answer lies in not just the truth, but the WHOLE truth.

The whole truth is that, yes, sometimes girls are attracted to that whole dark thing. Yes, sometimes nice guys put us off. Usually, this is something that experiance cures. I know that the older women in my life, such as aunt\'s, older cousins, etc, all look back on ex-boyfriends and say \"god, why am I with such and so? I could have done so much better with any of the others. But i fell for his looks, charm, and body. Now I know that, above all, find someone who loves you, cares for you, and has a tenderness near his heart.\"

Not in so many words, of couse;)

But what about those less experienced women? Well, you really have to disect what it is about those jerks we love. Is it the fact that they treat women like crap? Come on, 98.999% can\'t be masochistic, can we?

The bottom line is they ooze confidence. The things I look for in guys are: good looks, intelligence, kindness, romance, sense of humor and wit, charm, and plenty of confidence. I can assure you that most women look for almost the same things.

You can easily be nice and still be confident. You can still buy her flowers, treat her nice, and do her favors. Just be clear that you are not doing this in an effort to be \"worthy\", cause that\'ll get old so fast. Also be sure to show that you\'re nobody\'s doormat. One thing I left out of my list, and perhaps the one thing I love the most, is an indomitable will. Strength of mind, boys, remember.

And if you feel like you have to show a little jerkiness, show it in front of her but to someone else. Don\'t do this too much, because a girl always gets suspicious if you come off two faced. However, it never hurts to show her she\'s special to you and deserves special treatment.

Hope this helps and I\'m glad to answer any more questions regarding our, ahem, \"warped?\" minds. <raises brow>

Sincerely,
someone

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I will agree with some/much of the stuff said here, but there are still some problems. You can be nice and confident, yes, buying a girl flowers and chocolates and doing favors when you haven\'t gotten anything yet is called supplicating (Thanks ASF!) and is basically rewarding her for doing nothing essentially. This is a good way to get nowhere fast. If you are in a relationship with a girl, then of course there is the mutual give-give on both parties end, ie:favor\'s, flowers, chocolates, but this comes off a desperate in trying to start a relationship. If you are confident, then there should be many females that should want you, are you going to buy them all something? This could get expensive, and contradicts the point that you are worth having, and should be fought over.

I am not exactly saying that you contradicted this, but this is just another point that should be factored into the equation. Also the consideration that men are the ones who initialize the contact, talk to the girl, call her for date, not the other way around. So when men are actually going up to a girl to start something, they want something back of course, so if the girl is only planning on using and abusing (like an overconfident female) then she deserves to have some neg-hits (Thanks ASF!) in order to realize you are worth it, so maybe this is a test on the female part to see if the male is actually worth it.

Regardless however, being a jerk doesnt\' get you anywhere, that is just plain rude (and spiteful). But letting a girl know that in your opinion she is not all that, if she is one of those alpha girls or whatever (I just made that one up, 9-10), then this can be acomplished without being rude, simply by making your observations clear to her. If this is considered being a jerk by the female then she has some serious ego problems.......

[rjm]

I gotta disagree with the bit about \"buying a girl flowers and chocolates and doing favors when you haven\'t gotten anything yet is called supplicating.\" I don\'t do these things just to get into her pants.

What has been my experience though, is this: I buy flowers, hold doors, pull out chairs, etc. I do this because I try to actually be a thoughtful gentleman - one of the few useful things in my upbringing. The responses I\'ve gotten were \"You try too hard,\" and (in ref to getting a car door) \"I\'m not a cripple.\"

(Uh, I was being thoughtful, but if that\'s how you want to play it, then fine; get your own door, and I can save you the effort of hunting for a vase. I would much prefer to do this stuff, but if you shoot me down about it, I can turn this bit off, much as I can shut down any other aspect of my personality.)

Someone:
I\'m kinda confused about there not being enough \"nice-looking guys.\" Are you admitting to being, as a female, as shallow as us guys? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif What you\'ll find, and probably already have found, is that a good (?) percentage of the \"nice-looking guys\" are quite aware of their appearance, and are looking for fun only. Kinda sucks if you\'re more interested in something longer-term.
Now, having read what you said YOU look for, I\'ll admit to being about average-looking from what I see around me to compare. I may have lacked confidence initially in relationships, but as the comfort-level settles, that goes away. At the risk of sounding a bit overconfident, I\'d say I meet all of the other requirements you list, but still can\'t seem to find a female who not an abusive, or otherwise screwed up, (sorry, but here it comes -- ) bitch.

BTW, I do wish to thank you for being here to give us some info. Maybe if there were more people in general who would actually talk, and fewer who play the stupid games, we\'d all be a lot happier.

[CptKipling]

Good points well made.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i agree with you SOMEONE
but the biggest problem is this dependency on a super confident guy when the girl herself has all these issues and \"unsurities\"...and there are nice good looking guys...the ladies man...and frankly i think most girls are foolish to fall for the jerks...but yes, you don\'t have to be a jerk at all

[**DONOTDELETE**]

MOST people lack self confidence. Women waiting for men with self confidence are picking from a very small percentage of the whole. Since they rate confidence so highly, they are forced, then, to select men who are self-confident and jerks over men who are self-conscious but perfectly nice. The irony, of course, is that a large number of these women are looking for self-confident men precisely because they lack any real self-confidence themselves. They seek the most desireable mate even though, by their own standards, they are themselves undesireable.

Somebody \'splain this to me...

[Whitehall]

I think the 20/80 rule applies here: 20% of the guys (the confident ones) get 80% of the available women.

Women do want the best man they can get as their lover. No one is completely self-confident all the time in all situations but an inner strength does show through. Women are the weaker sex and should rightly prize physical and mental strength in a man. It is a tough, cruel world out there and a man\'s role as a protector and provider is an essential one. If he doesn\'t have the balls to strike up a conversation with a woman and risk rejection or to insist that his rights and boundaries be respected, how in Hell can she rely on him to battle for her and her offspring?

The hard fact is that both men and women have to compete for the best mates. Men do have to try a little harder since any woman who wants can have sex if she lowers her standards enough - many more men than women never get any.

The book to read is \"Sperm Wars\" if you want the inside scoop on just how we men compete and how women don\'t make it easy for us.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

it\'s easy for a woman to get laid
that is so true

[**DONOTDELETE**]

\"Women are the weaker sex and should rightly prize physical and mental strength in a man\"

I would disagree with this comment, Alexander the Great was a physically feeble scrawny and emaciated person, but still was condired a great leader. Empress Nicaula of the Epiopians had unsurpassing skills in politics, government, and sovereign justice, as well as Queen Fredegund of France. As with regards to physical strength, Quenn Semiramis as a woman of great strength at the time she was though to have been the sister of the great god Jupiter, and daughter of the ancient god Saturn, , who were believed to be gods of the earth and sea. Also the Amazons were often unequaled in strength...........

OK, enough history, other than point I agree most with what you said, mabye not ANY women who wants to have sex will get it, but any girl who tried the least maybe (IE:not fat slob) Also physical defects or sht like that. But yes, many more men than women never get any, which means a woman can put in a litle effort, don\'t order pizza all the time, and she can gfet sex. HOWEVER, whether she will be able to get GOOD sex is an entire different matter, and girls want to be pumped very well for sure, which is far more important that having a guy merely stick his dick in her.....

[Watcher]

When i say turn off to sex, i did mean stop thinking with yure dick and think with the brain it gets one a lot further.

[rjm]

Well, I not only think with the upper head (:)), but I seem to be the only male I know, at least in the physical world here, that can just shut off any interest at all. It serves its purpose.

cmorera:
I\'m curious -- where you said about buying a girl flowers and such is rewarding her for doing nothing -- if two people are together in this relationship, then shouldn\'t they want to be together in all ways?
It kind of seems to me that the point you made is that we\'re \"buying\" sex, which to some extent may be true on both sides of the relationship, but it just seems as though you\'re saying \"if you me, then you have to buy me stuff.\" It certainly has the feel of the discussion about the guys being jerks... (\"If you want me around, you\'re gonna spread \'em.\")

Somehow, both seem like dead relationships to me.

BTW, in general:
It would be nice to know who\'s male and who\'s female around here... Obviously, I\'m a male, Oscar is, and I think Watcher is /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif... Some of the others, too, but I gotta admit that although cmorera reads like a female, some of the comments in that earlier post have a definite male sound to them, esp. the bit I referenced above...

[upsidedown]

I agree that it would be nice to know male or female on the writer without having to figure it out from the context of their post.

I wonder if there\'s any way that the user profiles on this board could be modified to include a place to indicate this?

[Irish]

If science is to be believed, women want both types of men, only at different times and for different purposes.

Johnston et. al. (Evolution and Human Behavior 22 [2001] 251-267) showed rather convincingly that women prefer an \'alpha\' male (masculinized features) at times of their PEAK FERTILITY and for SHORT TERM sex, even though they rate such alphas as more likely to have negative and hostile personality traits (not likely to form long relationships). At other times in women\'s cycle they reverted to less masculinized (\'nicer\') preferences in mate choice. Note that masculinized features actually do correlate well with what we consider alpha men - higher testosterone levels that sculpted their features at puberty, and that also influence current behavior (more fights, inclination to compete, etc.).

At peak fertility women are also several times more likely to cheat on their spouse.

If I can simplify, some are thinking that women prefer a more stable easygoing provider type for their regular partner, but with the urge to go play with an alpha when they are most likely to conceive. Some theorize that women are driven to conceive outside the stable relationship to: 1) ensure good genes for the child (bad news to us nerds, but alphas - symmetrical - types really are genetically superior from a physical and health standpoint) and 2) maintain resource support from the more stable nice guy for raising the kid, since the alpha is poorly suited to a long-term relationship.

Who knows why it\'s built in, but it appears to be. Nice guys, you are destined to raise the illegitimate children of bad boys (because you will!), and alphas are destined to spread their seed widely (because they can!).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

that\'s really sad
what if you are a combination of both?

[Whitehall]

Irish,

Women will generally do what is best for their current and prospective children - and that can change with the circumstances and the environment. Since their children are their genetic legacy, mothers will balance risks and rewards in placing their bet on which strategy will win.

In agrian ecosystems, women will generally prefer a monogamous relationship since a single mother will usually need the father/mother team to ensure the children\'s success. In nomadic ecosystems, dominant males may have more than one wife but jealously guard them from the large numbers of left-over, unmated males.

In industrialized societies, monogamy has also been the rule until recently. Now some political groups are pushing government subsidies to single mothers (such as subsidized childcare) so that full-time fathers may become less necessary. Where this is prevalent, as in the old US \"Aid to Families with Dependent Children\" program, alpha males became more flamboyant in their competition (think \"Pimp Style\"), loser males slipped into drug dependancies and crime while Uncle Sam picked up the bills for the \"Welfare Queens\'\" offspring. What a deal!

Women also have some non-conscious control on the gender of the child. Having males is riskier but potentially more rewarding genetically than having a female child who might deliver 3 or 4 fertile children into the next generation. A male child can have unlimited reproductive opportunities. That\'s why China\'s policy of one child per couple will cause couples to actively prefer male children; a single female child will reduce one\'s genetic legacy by one half with future dilutions likely while a male child has much more genetic upside potential.

During periods or under circumstances when a single mother could not successfully raise children by herself AND an average male partner could make it possible, THEN mongamy was preferred. Think \'50s America.

When a female could support her brood without a male partner, than she would seek an alpha male for a sperm donation in hopes that her children would have the best genes. Think Murphy Brown and other well-to-do feminists and/or welfare queens.

Of course, as you point out, a possible good deal for a woman is to have a dedicated male partner to provide resources and an alpha male to provide sperm - so long as she doesn\'t get caught. That\'s why men have to be jealous (or at least attentive) of the women they agree to support. It also explains why a husband\'s infidelities are less serious than a wife\'s - she doesn\'t want to have to share resources with another woman\'s children; he doesn\'t want to get snookered into supporting another man\'s offspring while giving up a chance for his own progeny. The latter is much more serious, at least in times of plenty.

[Irish]

Yeah, the \'good genes\' theory of cuckholding the stable partner to obtain alhpa genes for her offspring is risky for the woman, as far as losing the stable resource provider. I\'ve read other theories about why women may be driven to cuckhold the stable provider for an alpha - I\'m not really leaning toward any of these but here\'s some ideas from David Buss:

resource accrual - she may get \'gifts\' from an alpha lover
mate expulsion/switching - a way to deliberately ditch a boring nice guy when she\'s ready
fertility backup - in case stable partner has deficient fertility
status enhancement - temporary liaison may improve status if alpha has status
honing mating skills - increase her skills at attraction and seduction by seeking an alpha
self esteem improvement - self explanatory
mate assessment/preference clarification - gives her comparisons among lovers
sexual gratification - obvious

Whether any of these is right I dunno, but it does seem from my reading that women have a full range of desires, from nurturing types to bad-boy sperm donors. And they want each type to answer a different need, and at an appropriate time in their reproductive cycle. Not surprising really - don\'t many men really want June Cleaver in the kitchen and a sex-crazed supermodel in the sack? Know many girls that embody both?

[Irish]

JPGR -
I think there\'s a spectrum of these qualities, and each man falls out somewhere on the continuum - no really 100% alphas or \'nice guys\'. But the traits of interest seem to be pretty much mutually exclusive to me…how can you be dominant and submissive at the same time, or caring and self-centered, or friendly and hostile, etc. Granted, perhaps we are complex enough to show contrary traits in different situations, but I\'m not so sure. Sounds like wishful thinking to me - I think our personalities are pretty set by adulthood and we are pretty consistent in the way we react to things.

Anyway, from the physical characteristics standpoint, it\'s cut and dried. You can measure symmetry and facial testosterone markers, and you have an answer about how alpha you are. These characteristics are well correlated with behavior and perceived handsomeness by several studies. Scientists can measure how much of an \'alpha\' you are. And many on this forum know about the study that also correlated the body scent of symmetric alphas with attractiveness to women - women prefer the scent of symmetrical men (yet again, only when they were at peak fertility - women on the pill did not show this preference).

I guess I\'m convinced that there are true alphas - and women prefer them for short-term sex, and when they are most fertile. But these alphas make poor long-term mates and women know that too. I guess if a nice guy could snag his dreamwife, and convincingly role-play an alpha when she wanted that, he might have a better chance of keeping her at home when her eye started to wander …

[Watcher]

Henceforth the additon now of DNA testing women are easily caught out and the man can legally divorce and take all his assets if the child is illegimate (legal system is helpful in some ways) and if one wants to be absoulutley certain of offspring go to an androgology lab (someone mention androgens again) although these are the technical name for the sperm bank - i like the link however. Do the good guys get sex however it would be in the womans interest to still have sex with the non high alpha type simply because otherwise she has to waste all that effort trying to find another provider male for her children. However some men (betas) in technical terms are very weary of leaving a relationship. I guess the balance has had to be sort because the trade off with the alphas is sperm donation but the high sex drive also means lack of faithfulness. But with cosmetic surgery and pheromones now that is all thrown off balance sort of decieving but in ones favour also. Really the greyest area i can think of all up but im still in favour of pheromone usage but take care in the workplace as complaints of BO can be embarrasing switch to social usage only if you are concerned but it can also be helpful care needs to be taken with amounts used.

[rjm]

Irish,
It seems that this one girl I knew was right, when she -she- said that all females are \"f****d in the head.\" She said she was no exception to that, by the way. Following the info you posted, it seems not only that we (guys) will never figure them out, but neither males nor females will ever really be happy. Either the long-term relationship is going to be unfulfilling, or there will only be a bunch of disapointing short-term relationships.
For the benefit of the females, I know a bunch of males who have the same problem... They want to sleep with the models, but want to have a woman \"just the the one who married dear old dad\" for the emotional stability.

JPGR,
\"What if you\'re a combination of both?\" Simple... We\'re screwed, because we\'re always, SOMEHOW, off-time... /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif

[Irish]

rjm-
If the woman can keep her short alpha affairs secret from the long-term nice guy at home, everyone would be happ!!

Actually, I\'ve been a little tongue-in-cheek about this - I think the points are valid, but not the whole answer. Sure, men want an impossible ideal everywoman, but we all live below our ideals and many can be very happy in the \'real world\'. And women have their ideal man (men?!) in mind, but so what? No one gets everything they want in life, and most of us find a way to get by. So I guess all of my posts here were about trying to understand what women want...but knowing that few people of either gender will ever meet anything close to their ideal - and that\'s ok.

The real idea that interested me lately is that studies are showing that women in fact have different sexual prefernces for shortterm and longterm partners. (And when I make that statement is is a gross statistical population concept - of course this may or may not be true for any individual). Futhermore, this preference seems to be tied to the ovulation cycle - women at peak fertility prefer more masculine/symmetrical/\'alpha\' types (facial preference) than at other times in the cycle, and they prefer these types for shortterm mating only. Women even prefer the scent of symmetrical men at peak fertility, with no preference at other times. Add to this the finding that androstenone, a primaray odorant in male body scent, is least aversive to women at peak fertility, and that women are extremely sensitive to male (musky) odor at peak fertility, it looks to me like women are set up to prefer and seek out an alpha for short term mating when they are most likely to conceive. This is backed up from the behavioral side in that women statistically are several times more likely to cheat on a regular partner at peak fertility, and that symmetrical/alpha types have many more shortterm sexual partners over their lifetime (duh).

[Whitehall]

I have a bit of a problem with symmetry as the sole metric of the alpha male. Who is more apparently alpha - a short, skinny, symmetrical guy or a tall, broad-shouldered, assymetric one? I believe it is common knowledge that woman pay a lot of attention to behavior with dominence, energy, and self-confidence as the attractive qualities. Looks (ie symmetry) on a guy are one input in their judgment but it not the sole criterion nor is it even the most powerful.

After all, symmetry may have genetic roots but it can be strongly influenced by development. Another factor is the common observation that \"pretty boys\" - the perfect ones - are often homosexual.

As to a correlation between an individual\'s pheromone signature and symmetry, I\'d like to see some more evidence since I\'ve always been more than a bit skeptical of that correlation.

Frankly, humans, like all complex biological entities, have to do \"multi-sensor fusion\" - visuals are just one input to the decision-making process where we choose our sexual partners.

[rjm]

But it still sucks! Somewhere a few pages back in this thread, there was the whole bit about being Alpha vs. Nice Guy.
Uh, the nice nice guy inme ain\'t gonna tolerate cheating, regardless of how Alpha \"he\" may be...
Obviously, by the same token, I want a \"she\" that holds the same standard.

Probably just a bit of my own great success and the reason I\'m using the pheros! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[Whitehall]

It\'s called \"Civilization\" - currently much under-rated and under-appreciated but the greatest achievement of the human species.

[Irish]

Whitehall -

Well, with all these studies I\'d like to see more evidence too, but these aren\'t the type of subjects that draw huge research budgets, so we\'re kind of left with some sketchy evidence we have to examine closely and try and put in context with other wisdom and common sense. At least when I have a little scientific evidence I have a starting point for my wildass speculation...

As far as the symmetry thing, I read one where they were considering symmetry that was strictly a function of developmental stability - regardless of the genetic makeup, how good was an individual at holding symmetry through puberty. This was shown in animals to covary with general health and fertility. Again, for what that\'s worth...

A better correlate to sexual attractiveness was testosterone facial markers, which appear during pubertal growth. The British investigators think it\'s more valid than investigating just fluctuating asymmetry in these sexual preference studies. It also shows a fairly strong correlation with symmetry, though not exact. I guess the theory on testosterone markers is that if an individual can afford to hold high T levels, thus producing the masculine markers at puberty, he must be physically superior (high T levels are costly to immune and other systems, and only extra-fit individuals can maintain them). Again, lots of speculation, some evidence...but when the theory fits the statistics at least you have a basis to predict (other than merely rank speculation).

The scent of symmetry study looked solid enough - standard t-shirt sniff testing. They ended up blending the \'sexy\' and \'pleasant\' responses from the women testers, since they coincided. The fertility correlation looked valid, esp. since I don\'t think they initially looked for it. anyway, I\'m never gonna a better study on it, so I\'ll run with their findings for now.

In the end, for me I\'m more interested in statistical behavioral results, since that\'s the domain I\'m operating in. The theoretical explanations are interesting insofar as they may tie some things together for me, but really I just want to know how women react in given situations, what their conscious or unconscios preferences may be (so I can fake it if necessary!), and to what degree these things are variable or situational. In a word, I wanna get laid more.

[Whitehall]

Irish,

Sounds we\'re both \"pheromone engineers\" or maybe \"pheromone artists\" and not pheromone scientists.

\"The proof is in the pud...ding.\"

[Whitehall]

Cmorera,

Your observation \"and girls want to be pumped very well for sure, which is far more important that having a guy merely stick his dick in her..... \" is so true.

It\'s taken me a while to realize that, since a woman can have intercourse just about anytime she wants it yet is naturally inhibited, what a discriminating woman selects her lover for is the creation of a special event. Taking a lover has to be special for her, has to make her feel those special feelings.

That\'s why seductive settings, fantasy, foreplay, intimacy are so important. She will usually prefer an dominant and vigorous male, one she can be proud of attracting and that validates and improves her own sense of self-worth. Once she is emotionally prepared, she also wants the physical act to be consuming - a good bit of exercise where she knows that she\'s been done right by a healthy man.

That\'s what I find anyway.

[Watcher]

But surley in each culture ie asian african american european etc etc there are wild differences in what women look for.
I guess genetic diversity also comes into play - the simple increase in cross cultural relationships. Lots of theroies play here but i beleive we are on the right course. Also for some women if they are to picky then they will never get any men so they lower their standards sometimes to get something instead of missing out.

[Watcher]

Well time to boost this thread back up. Same thing still applies.

[FerroMone]

Well i am an ASIAN. And females here will always look for a NICE guy JERKS are not welcome here. A BAD BOY is also a head turner here as long as he is good looking but if he is not good looking then a BAD BOY image is really a bad boy image. Even though asians are conservative, the kinestethic aspect is really needed, which means that a flirting touch on the elbow, back etc is often needed to connect with the opposite sex.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well that is an interesting suggestion. Now thinking of it in my travels around the world especially indonesia that was particularly the case asian women are on the whole completley different the only place they are willing to move themselves on a guy is new zealand. And i have been to many different countries and thought this really weird.

[rjm]

Just bumpin\' to the front for MP and the rest of us to review.

There *WILL* be a test on this, and it will be held in your pants! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Figure out what colors flatter your natural coloring and buy clothes in those colors. You\'re generally gonna be a cool or a warm, so blue/green/purple will look good, or red/yellow/orange will. Your clothes don\'t have to be expensive - I\'m talking about even a jeans and t shirts wardrobe. Go to a good men\'s store and ask a salesman to help you figure out which colors look good on you and what cut - most will be more than delighted to help you (I know, it\'s a little fruity, and the salesman might be, too, but ... worth humbling yourself for). The salesmen at Joseph A. Banks and Britches are generally pretty good. Figure out whether pleated front or plain front pants are best and what size exactly and what length. Figure out whether crew neck or v neck or turtleneck, etc.
You can buy six of the same shirt and six of the same pants in various colors and no one will notice that you always wear the same thing. If your clothes fit well and the colors look good on you, you\'re good. you don\'t have to look different every day. You just have to look nice.
The office I work in is business casual 5 days a week. My boss wears generally some kind of dockers like pants that fit nice in the ass and he has a million different kinds of shirts, from denim to dress, but he always looks GREAT, and it\'s because his shirts are beautifully laundered and he never wears a color that doesn\'t look good him.
Make sure your clothes are clean and your shoes, whatever they may be, are in good repair.
Wear a decent watch and a good leather belt. Old Navy has nice belts for 20.00.
That should make a good start and doesn\'t seem too much to ask.
We wear ourselves/our pocketbooks OUT dressing for you guys, from underwear to outwear to shoes to purses, jewelry, cosmetics, hair accessories. Mostly we just want you to be clean and pulled together.

Neutrals in solid colors are endlessly, effortlessly wearable. Black/white is a personal technique, \'cause I have little patience with clothes, a limited budget, and other stuff I\'d rather think about. Black and white is classy and easy, you can\'t go wrong with it and you don\'t have to think about it, everything in your closet matches. Ditto khaki, navy, charcoal gray.

All your underwear has to be is clean and in good repair, and I\'d stick with white, whether boxers or tighty whiteys, whether they\'re KMart or Calvin Klein doesn\'t matter (we\'re just gonna take them off you anyway).

If you wear jewelry and/or glasses, they should be similar in style and in color of metal. Black&white with silver jewelry is understated and elegant and easy to find glasses frames, watches, etc. for. Tortoiseshell and brown with gold, khaki, navy.

Throw out anything excessively faded, that has stains on it or that doesn\'t fit.

Buy natural fibers as much as possible. They drape better and have a better touch appeal.

Easy, no?