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View Full Version : THE ETHICS OF USING PHEROMONES...



**DONOTDELETE**
05-21-2002, 06:36 PM
ok.

let\'s say you know a girl, she thinks you\'re ok and stuff. next day, pheromones! she will be like...whoa!

or you use pheromones to attract the one. she smells the stuff, get to know you, falls in love, you guys get married. BACK TO THE FUTURE, you accidently leave your primal instinct and other pheromone products(and the ingredients do say human pheromones). she will be what\'s this? do research on human pheromones, finds out you been using it on her and \"cheated\". not very pleasant you know what i mean.

or let\'s say you see an ok girl, get attracted to her....., falls for her and also find out she \"cheated nature\" and used pheromones? what would you guys think? would you guys think, my love and attraction is based on pheromones! take away her pheromones...what would happen? she turned \"ugly\" or what? =)

i think someone used pheromones on me....luckily i heard about it. there was this girl standing in line in front of me, i didn\'t even get to see her face and boobs and all. but i\'m like what the hell? why i want to look at her for? i felt the pull. i looked away but still felt the pull. i\'m like, what the hell, she using pheromones i bet.

Nutt
05-22-2002, 06:35 AM
Humm, we had a thread about this previously, and I agree about what one poster said about how most people draw a moral line, then argue for the point they belive in. I use pheros, therfore I thinbk there ethical, but personaly I dont think I\'d care if they werent. images/icons/laugh.gif

anyhoo, IMHO while pheros may incite attraction, love is something more than that that happens over time and is less related to physical ( including phero) attraction. Pheros are a first step tool, and I dont certainly consider having sex a test of love.

Watcher
05-22-2002, 12:13 PM
Remember though damaster in nature that this stuff is a very important factor in attraction so it has a lot of validity all we are doing is upping our own natural signature to have an advantage. Some women think its kinky what we need to do as a group is to get the message out there so that people understand and that really causes lots of confusion but hey it does work in our advantage.
NLP will teach you how to approach the subject so that it turns out to youre advantage.

xvs
05-22-2002, 12:23 PM
My argument:

- Some people have better vision than others. The others use glasses to correct their vision.

- Some people have more pheromones than others. The others can use synthetic pheromones to correct their pheromone levels.

Teak
05-22-2002, 01:15 PM
I don\'t think pheromones have the ultimate attracting power some would like them to have. Someone isn\'t going to just fall for you cus of the pheromones. No matter how much pheromones you cover yourself with, if you aren\'t someone’s type I doubt they\'d fall for you in a big way. When was the last time you fell for a butt ugly person who was sweating a lot? Well ok maybe after a few too many drinks for some, but thats the power of alcohol images/icons/smile.gif

I think pheromones may play a part...how big a part is a question not many people seem to ask. It\'s not a case of they work or don\'t work I think..more they work to a degree..some notice that degree, some don\'t and some mistake other things for it too. After all if pheromones were the ONLY factor in attraction, it would be as black and white as they work or don\'t. Since some find they work and some find they don\'t or aren\'t sure if they work, it does suggest there are other factors to consider. After all everyone is different, the people they meet are different, the situations they are in and meet people are different. Pheromones probably give you an edge, break the ice easier, catch someone’s eye easier, enhance existing attraction, etc, but I doubt they are some magic love potion that. People should give credit to their looks, personality, attitude, social techniques, etc as well as pheromone products, when things go well (and bad for that matter).

Watcher
05-22-2002, 01:41 PM
So then a person using pheromones really has no great big advantage at all which pretty well much means that we can put it in the same league as everyone wearing colonges and perfumes out there, and if i am using pheros or you are then really it is unimportant
DAMASTER what do you think, really if this stuff is unimportant then really we shouldnt be worried about someone having it on as say compared with money jewels a good looking body bad sight bad hearing, a flash car a good mouth (chatting women up) or a smart brain being creative (having a big dick or tits) heck the list could go on and on.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-22-2002, 04:03 PM
gents

I have no \"moral\" problems with this stuff. The effect is not \"significant\" enough to worry about, it\'s just a first impression thing. I think, as has been stated, that after a while other factors will predominate.

As for Teena\'s experience, I think it\'s a too much too soon expectation. I am married and it took a good few weeks of phero usage to get a response from my partner. This was the thing that convinced me to continue with phero experementation. One night she just turned to me and said \" why do you smell so godam yummy lately\". I was gobsmacked. She did not know of the phero usage, or really \"react\" in the way of a \"hit\", but she sure as hell had noticed..

Women, sent from mars to F++K us all up!

;~}

marv14yag
05-22-2002, 05:24 PM
I believe that the mones are JUST like a girl wearing tight pants and a tight shirt and makeup. This is the same effect mones would have.

Bart.

a.k.a.
05-22-2002, 06:16 PM
deja vu!,
This topic got me into a lot of soul searching when Whitehall originally brought it up.

I believe pheromones have a very powerful effect indeed. You are dealing with limbic responses. What most people call love (in so far as they are defining a particular feeling) is actually a chemical reaction in which pheromones no doubt play a dominant role. More significantly... Since pheromones elicit a limbic response — which precedes, and often precludes, higher brain functions — you have the power to define people’s feelings for them.

This is something I just discovered recently.

What triggered the guilt buttons in the last thread was all the talk about the sneakiness and dishonesty involved when others don’t know you’re wearing pheromones. So I’ve started being more straightforward in my approach to seduction.

In the past, I never told women about pheromones until after I had observed their reaction to me without the stuff — and made sure they still liked me.

I recently told my tango partner that I was wearing pheromones in the middle of a dance lesson. By the end of the lesson she was so hot that I had to “lend her a hand” in the parking lot. I believe that the thought of being under the influence of an aphrodisiac multiplied the actual effect of the aphrodisiac.

It feels good to be open about the stuff. But now I’m wrestling with another ethical dilemma. In short, I’ve seduced a girl that’s half my age and already has a boyfriend. I used to stop by the store where she worked to test out the OD limits of my new mixes because she is so sensitive to the effects. One day I just walked up and confessed what I’d been doing, explained how pheromones worked, talked her into believing that she couldn’t resist me, introduced her to a few androsterone assisted orgasms, and now she’s my drooling, little, love puppy.

What to do? What to do?

Whitehall
05-22-2002, 10:30 PM
We had a good, long thread on this general subject.

A similar question would be, \"Would you be pissed if the girl you chased for so long wore falsies?\"

I would agree that pheromones are of major importance during the first exposures - after a couple become familiar with each other, other factors predominate and pheromones, yes or no, don\'t matter very much. Check out Teena\'s husband\'s reactions.

Watcher
05-22-2002, 11:52 PM
I would say if it isnt serious with the boyfriend well then keep giving her orgasms etc.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-23-2002, 07:22 AM
I really don\'t think that any of us are simply who we believe ourselves to be in the first place. We spend most of our lives imaging ourselves to be this way or that way with this group or that group. We are one way with family and another way at work. Then there the neighborhood guy and there\'s the club guy. We have so many egos and wear so many masks and hats on a daily basis that the use of pheromones is just another personal improvement or enhansement that we does. To be honest we does all sort of things to mask ourselves so that we become somewhat attractive or pleasent to others as well as to ourselves. I been married of 28 years and my wife and I are still discovering who we really are. Most of all I am still trying to understand the mystery of self. So if I am still discovering me, you bet I use pheromones and so many other things to mask all the me-s from evcerybody else. I take all the help I can get.

Watcher
05-23-2002, 12:33 PM
Its the evolution of the species to discover something like this (it should have taken off in the information stakes but hasnt given our quaisi religious/scincetific society.
Therefore for the intelligent it is therefore an advantage. As far as being unfair some say yes some say no.
Apparently according to some this stuff isnt that big so therefore it is unimportant you all know my views but they will be kept quite in this instance.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-23-2002, 03:45 PM
Whitehall

Interesting, but I don\'t consider nature is ethical. We all give up \"freedoms\" for the \"good\" of society, but, monogomy is not the way of nature, or desirable in terms of natural selection. Surely, rape, as reprehensible as it is, is just the resurgence of the primitive reproduce at all costs directive. Society and the family unit is born of the desire for mutual protection of the tribe against the alpha types who are interested only in the personal self interest of their own survival and reproduction. It is neccesary for the nurturing of children and the weak, not for reproduction. Nature, unlike us has no morals. The only goal is for our selfish genes to reproduce at the expense of our competitors. Nature is about survival of the fittest. We are actually, by inventing morals, laws, society etc. going against the natural order of things. This war against nature is the cost we have to endure in order to have the niceties of civilised living. So, all in all if pheros give an advantage in the mating game, and put you ahead in the reproduction game, then where is the moral dilema? It seems perfectly reasonable to me to use any seduction method available to acomplish the desired goal of getting your end away. At least this is in harmony with the natural order of things.

Boomshankah!

Whitehall
05-23-2002, 10:17 PM
a.k.a.,

If bringing up the ethics of pheromones inspired some soul-searching, then mission accomplished!

Ethics is a topic too little considered in American life these days yet it is the foundation of civilization, to my mind.

Some of us have taken the position that we ALL argue our self-interest; i.e. that we look for our short-term advantage then create arguments that support that short-term advantage. Ergo, any ethical argument is self-justification and no more.

I think that you and I can assert that this isn\'t always the case. It IS in everybody\'s, including my own, long-term self-interest to have all people behave in an ethical manner. A case would be that I will forgo rape so that my wife and daughters are safe from rape from others. Cheaters serve their own SHORT-term self interest at the expense of the well-behaved - that\'s why we punish them.

John Maynard Keynes once observed that \"In the long run, we\'re all dead.\" That was easy for him to say since he was a childless homosexual. That attitude is one reason normal heterosexuals disdain queers. In the long-run, I want my children to succeed in an ethical world and I\'m willing to make short-term sacrifices to make that better world.

So I think the issue now revolves around whether exogenous pheromones skew the survivablity and prosperity of offspring. The user might get better offspring at the expense of the partner\'s decrement in offspring quality. Then again, exogenous pheromones may prime the target to have offspring when they wouldn\'t otherwise.

My conclusion is based on the falsie case - a user of exogenous pheromones is ahead of the game, an innovator, and perhaps more intelligent than other competitors. If the user now has a competitive advantage, that advantage of intelligence is rewarded. Just as it is accepted as fair that a smart woman makes herself look better than less intelligent women who may be more \"naturally\" attractive, so should an intelligent pheromone user be rewarded for his or her intelligence.

We\'re just doing Nature\'s bidding here folks - Charles Darwin would approve, I think.

Watcher
05-25-2002, 12:49 PM
Sorry to say but that is ugly (he could make a lot of money in advertising as the before guy he he)
I admit pheromones arent that big a deal and my usage has been cut back a lot / i just am interested in the forum and the discussion they can get pretty damn addictive at times so i continue to post to get things going.

Heck i spend more time working out that is getting me more hits than ever and also studying at the moment to. But the science is still interesting and this forum does a good job at promoting it so im on board anyway.

xvs
05-25-2002, 01:31 PM
OK, all good arguments, but let\'s take the \"devil\'s advocate\" point of view and try this one on for size.

IF we discovered a new pheromone which, when worn, would make women be helplessly attracted to you, would THAT pheromone be ethically wrong to use? I\'m talking about something that really pushes their buttons and makes them do things they really would NOT have done otherwise.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-25-2002, 02:11 PM
xvs: if such a pheromone was ever discovered, you can stay pretty sure that anyone of us would have big problems in getting samples of it... Because it would be probably illegal to use, or it would be banned anyway.

The pheromones we are using are instead *IMHO* just for giving you a convenient edge when approaching other sex... I have had my very first evidence of this just tonight! images/icons/tongue.gif Too tired to post a hit report now however... Expect it to come later tomorrow!

xvs
05-25-2002, 06:31 PM
You avoided the question.

I didn\'t ask \"could you?\" or \"would it be possible to get?\"

I asked \"what are the ethics of doing it?\" according to you.

Whitehall
05-25-2002, 07:00 PM
One important point is that human response are extremely variable in biological context. Since we\'ve been top dog ecology-wise for so long and are so intelligent, we\'ve a much broader reportore of behaviors than other species.

In other words, individually, we can and do get away with a lot more and still survive compared to species that are in a tighter spot.

I think we see that in the variablity of responses from people and by users.

Teak
05-25-2002, 10:47 PM
I\'m no neurologist or psychologist, so I don\'t know how big an impact pheromones have on the limbic system and if that response invokes a similar sized response in how we as humans look at others or react too. After all you can think one thing and act differently, maybe due to being shy for example.

Maybe it does, but I\'m still not sure pheromones are some love potion that using would have serious moral and ethical issues. I still think pheromones are only ONE part of attraction. How big a part, I\'m not sure, as no study has really looked into that. Considering studies seem to suggest as animals get more complex with many other ways to communicate and so on, pheromones become less important in attracting a mate. It stands to reason, that in humans, pheromones are least important in the animal kingdom. That’s not to say they don\'t play a part of course. But I think in humans at least how we define attraction is made up of personal taste in terms of looks, personality, as well etc. In lesser animals, then yes, pheromones seem to make up a bigger part of attraction where their effects are so powerful, in effect they roll over and that’s it. But us humans are more advanced. Maybe pheromones in humans can have some kind of subconscious effect of higher brain functions, as our behaviour can sometimes show parallels with basic animal traits. But to what DEGREE? We need to stop only looking at pheromone effectiveness in terms of absolutes and also look at the degree of effectivness I think.

Pheromones in humans can probably enhance existing attraction to a degree or improve someone’s mood to a degree so they are more likely to respond well to interacting with you, but if someone finds you butt ugly or they are in a super bad mood, do you really see pheromones effecting the limbic system enough to override such strong higher brain functions completely? Can they override strong personal feelings of taste of looks and other factors and make them jump on you as if they are some lower animal? I’m talking about extreme personal feelings here btw to make a point. Maybe when it comes to on the wall types of feelings where someone is unsure or likes you but is shy, then pheromones can influence someone in either direction. So maybe I’m saying pheromones can’t get results (certainly on their own) with people who wouldn’t normally like you, but can improve your chances or enhance the experience with people who already dig you or either are unsure or mildly like you but are normally shy or something. Maybe with someone who isn\'t interested in you, at least more friendly or like you enough to chat and maybe grow to find you attractive? After all, attractiveness is more than just looks and people can change their mind when they get to know someone new.

Without being nasty or meaning any offence, but for example would you think most girls would suddenly be drooling over a guy like this (\"http://uglypeople.com/uglymen/section.images/up-men-00307.jpg\") (who probably isn’t the best looking guy around and might not have the best social skills in the world either), simply because he uses pheromone products? Or do you still need to have a good base of looks, personality, social skills, etc for pheromones to enhance and maybe make the difference? Guess it\'d depends how big of degree pheromones can effect us humans. If it\'s big then looks, personality, social skills will not matter that much.

Also in the job context. Maybe pheromones can improve your chances of getting a job, by either getting you respect or making the interviewer more friendly or in a better mood around you. But surely you still have to be qualified and be able to do the job. If you can\'t, I doubt pheromones are going to cause someone to ignore their higher brain functions telling them no. Maybe again if it\'s an unsure issue, pheromones might swing it though. If pheromones were all that powerful, we\'d have a safety issue as well as moral and ethical. People getting jobs that they aren\'t really qualified for.

xvs
05-26-2002, 02:34 AM
This seems germane -- Opinion:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1143583 (\"http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1143583\")

Excerpt:

IN AN attempt to treat depression, neuroscientists once carried out a simple experiment. Using electrodes, they stimulated the brains of women in ways that caused pleasurable feelings. The subjects came to no harm—indeed their symptoms appeared to evaporate, at least temporarily—but they quickly fell in love with their experimenters.

Such a procedure (and there have been worse in the history of neuroscience) poses far more of a threat to human dignity and autonomy than does cloning.


ARTICLE: The ethics of brain science (\"http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1143317\")

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: xvs ]

**DONOTDELETE**
05-26-2002, 11:20 AM
Hi xvs; ok let\'s suppose that such a pheromone exists, and that in some way, I managed to get a bottle of it.

What is this pheromone supposed to do? It makes women *helplessly* attacted to you and makes them do things they wouldn\'t have done otherwise, according to your proposal; IMHO the key of the whole story is that *helplessly*. If she can\'t place a hold on herself because of what I\'m wearing, in some ways it\'s like I\'m raping her, or even worse because she actually doesn\'t notice!

The story of neuroscience you provided fits well but not enough, since those women actually asked to undergo some treatment that involved messing with their brains.

I try this one for keeping the discussion up: what would you do if someone hypnotized you, made you do things you wouldn\'t have done, and then suddenly woke you up? I\'d be rather disappointed.

IMHO the pheromones we are using are definitely not the love potion you idealize, they are just meant to complement our already existing pheromone signature; in other words, IF a girl is *not* going to you, she won\'t change her mind because of the pheromones. Instead, IF she\'s already thinking of you, or doesn\'t know you at all and likes your first impression, your chances are probably raised. These \"IF\"\'s should make nobody feel guilty for the use of pheromones.

Watcher
05-26-2002, 11:43 AM
Ok im not neuroscience expert but i believe that such a mixture already exists and some of us using this stuff at high doses or OD do get very strong hits (like SOE at about 15 swipes around the head neck and chest area)
The recommendations are to use small amounts but using slightly more gets good results.
All someone with the right mixture would need to do is to get into forums like this to make sure that it didnt take off and also the media would knock it down for being silly like they always do.
UFOs and aliens have been kicked down in this way as well as very many good inventions like clean energy hydrogen fuel the existing lobby is very strong not to provide the best of the best and only substandard materials. Bruce sells what he can legally, to get the good stuff you gotta go to the actual suppliers and government to get the top secret stuff.
Or ask dr dodd, mr pheromone creator of excite wipes he has been playing with them for 30 years and probably has something stashed away or even james kohl as well he he sorry james to mention youre name images/icons/laugh.gif
you are the expert and all

a.k.a.
05-27-2002, 05:57 PM
Like Nimbus said, If there was a pheromone that makes the opposite sex helplessly attracted to you, then it would be unethical by definition.

But what would that look like? Would the pheromones lock in a limbic response so powerful that higher brain functions shut down. It’d be like every woman in the room would go DIHL and stay that way until you left.

Or maybe the pheromone signal would be so persistent that women could think of nothing but you (until you left the room).

Or maybe it would make people so insanely horny that they’d do it with anybody.

If it was the last option , I’d probably use it. If it made women obsess, I’d avoid it like the plague. If it triggered maximum DIHL, I wouldn’t use it to get laid (there’s no pleasure if they don’t want you); but I probably couldn’t resist wearing it in public.

jose
05-27-2002, 06:13 PM
If there was a Pheromone with that much power that can get the not so good-looking guys girlfriends then I\'m all for it. It\'s better than being alone for the rest of your life, people want companionship. I would use it myself maybe that makes me a creep or something but there\'s nothing like the touch or feel of a woman.

camusflage
05-27-2002, 06:18 PM
Honestly, I can\'t understand why they DIDN\'T see the women falling in love with the experimenters to be a side-effect. That is, after all, what we\'re trying to do, in part, with Andro1, supposing it\'s a mood elevator for women. Same too is true with NLP, associating pleasurable feelings with the practicioner. Now then, it comes down to the strength of the conditioning. Andro1 and meth both hit the pleasure centers. It\'s the degree to which it\'s done (along with the intentions) that flavors the ethics of it.

Whitehall
05-28-2002, 08:55 AM
is getting everything you want, whenever you want it.

So if the hypothetical guaranteed sex pheromone existed, it would get old quickly.

Society would have a very strong justification to immediately ban it. Every father with daughters would be after the inventor\'s hide, not to mention the feminists.

Women have a very important function in human ecology and evolution - they largely chose who will father their children and when. The hypothetical pheromone would negate that responsibility and replace it with what? Pretty soon, every fertile woman would be pregnant! How would men compete then for the chance to be a father? We would probably see harems as in Muslim countries where women are kept as possessions and locked up for the sole use of the alpha male. Would eunuchs make a return? The less powerful males would then get even less opportunities than now.

This would make an interesting science fiction scenario.

Whitehall
07-14-2004, 07:48 PM
Bump - it seems like a new batch

of pheromone users need to conside this topic.

koolking1
07-15-2004, 04:29 AM
"Women have a very important

function in human ecology and evolution - they largely chose who will father their children and when. The

hypothetical pheromone would negate that responsibility and replace it with what? Pretty soon, every fertile woman

would be pregnant! How would men compete then for the chance to be a father? We would probably see harems as in

Muslim countries where women are kept as possessions and locked up for the sole use of the alpha male. Would eunuchs

make a return? The less powerful males would then get even less opportunities than now."


I doubt the

above scenario would happen as the Alpha male's edge in aggression abilities was pretty much negated with the

advent of the great equalizer, the gun.

IronMind
07-15-2004, 07:08 PM
I think phermones just adds a

little cherry on top.

platinumfox
07-16-2004, 04:26 AM
I'll admit I use pheromones to

attract other mens wives and girlfriends.

IronMind
07-16-2004, 06:30 AM
well thats kinda loserish.

Rover The Dog
07-16-2004, 06:39 AM
"well thats kinda

loserish."

ditto

David
07-16-2004, 01:54 PM
I agree with the

gist of what others are saying. These in IMHO no moral issue here. Whats the difference from any of a long list of

other things people do to attract others: any cologne/perfume, fixing our hair, wearing nice (or sexy) clothes,

wearing a Rolex, driving a beemer, what ever.

Paradoxically, we do all the above (and other) things (which

to some extent are facades) to attract someone initially, but who we really are is what (hopefully) keeps

them.

I personally am most seriously interested in a deep abiding connection with someone. The mones are

just part of the hunt. I doubt they will be relevent after making "first contact". But I'm not

sure.

Namaste
David

DrSmellThis
07-16-2004, 02:28 PM
:angel: :twisted:
Wearing pheromones is doing people a favor, by creating a more pleasant pheromone profile for

them. You're pleasing the senses.

It is essentially no different, or no more deceptive, than wearing nice

clothes instead of going naked everywhere. Is wearing a shirt over your little beer belly deceptive? If somebody

dresses well or smells good (pheros help people to enjoy smells more thoroughly), their habit is often a lasting,

and therefore not superficial, difference in their attractiveness. I will always smell good (and dress with

aesthetics somewhat in mind), and any woman in my life can count on that enjoyment.

But what if

pheromones were magic -- so powerful, they caused every woman to find you attractive?

So what? Is it

unethical for Brad Pitt to be Brad Pitt? ;) People are as free, responsible and attracted as they are going to be,

in response to all the things we do to ourselves to help our attractiveness. It is what it is. Who can judge how

attracted someone should be?

But even assuming we could and "should" be these kinds of

judges, maybe people "should be" more attracted to each other than they are. Maybe pheromones help redress

the excessive alienation, mistrust and isolation that plague capitalist, individualist cultures; and help remove

some purely biological obstacles to intimacy; obstacles that are less relevant, in practical terms, than they used

to be.
:nono::lol::smite: