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**DONOTDELETE**
05-04-2002, 04:00 AM
Its all good if you’re getting plenty of DIHL and hair flipping, but will a girl remember you or associate you with her behavior induced by pheromones? The reason I ask, it seems behavioral responses to pheromones are not a conscious thing, and therefore its probably not conscious judgement to remember you with those pleasant feelings that pheromones create. My point here is do pheromones create a pleasant reaction or just a reaction? If it’s the later, associating the wearer of pheromones will wear off pretty fast.

jamesdeanmartin
05-04-2002, 06:56 AM
I think association or labeling of the sexual stimulus is critical. I began wearing pheros around a female friend of mine a couple months back (we\'ll call her \"Anne\"). We\'ve known each other for a couple of years, and so unfortunately, I don\'t think she noticed any real difference in me. She had already told a mutual friend that I\'m a guy \"she probably wouldn\'t sleep with.\" (Fuck her, on a sidenote, but anyway). I began hanging out with her with two new friends who she didn\'t know before I started wearing pheros. Now she is totally into these guys (not in a dating way, but in a pure fucking way, as she told me). Fuckers. I\'m fairly sure she is associating the sexual stimulus with those new guys, meanwhile I\'m paying for the p-mones. Time to find some new friends or something. Or maybe stop wearing the pheros (?)

I also worry because she tends to hang out with me most nights, then goes out on a \"date\" later in the evening on weekends. I\'m afraid I\'m fucking warming up her engine so some other schmuck can jump her. (On a side note, the last guy she almost slept with last week couldn\'t get it up 3 times in a night, and they never had sex. I told her it was a sign from God. The guy is a shmuck 19 year old drug dealer, I don\'t know why she\'s slumming with him, but I digress...)

How quick are the results and how long do they last (I guess it varies with the different pheromones)? I guess this is something I should have figured out a while back. I wore pheros on a business trip last winter with four women and one guy. Three women reported explicit sex dreams, and one had a dream that the other (married) guy told her \"He loved her and that they would get married\" (perhaps a difference in arousal, three wanted sex, one wanted love). Anyway, it freaked all of them out, as well as the guy who roomed with me.

\"Anne\" never had sexual dreams in her life until I started wearing pheros around her. Now it is a regular occurence. I don\'t know if I\'m showing up in these dreams or not, she wouldn\'t tell me in all likelihood. But she has told me she\'s had sexual dreams about a couple of old acquaintances who she would never consider sexual partners. Part of the problem may be that she labels virtually everyone upon getting to know them, and if you aren\'t in the \"do\" pile, you are screwed.

Do we have any idea what the subliminal effects of these pheromones are? Has anyone else reported an increase in sex dreams or quasi-subliminal effects on women? On themselves? I thought maybe with all the pheromones I wear that I\'d have more sex dreams, but I think I may be having less.

Back to \"Anne.\" We\'ve been real close, virtually best friends for 3/4 years and yet I can\'t seem to stir any interest from her. We flirt from time to time, and we do a lot of basic touching, but she is a touchy person, so I never interpretted it as anything more. We get along well enough that I actually want to date her and form a serious relationship, not just sex. Although sex would work too. (Plus we have perhaps the most important issue, my lack of balls to make a first move, because I\'m afraid of losing her as a friend. In February I made a move on one of my friends and got the total shaft, and we haven\'t spoken since, so I\'m afraid I\'ll lose her).

Anyone have any suggestions?

I\'ve been staying away from Edge and NPA currently because she is having her period, sticking with SOE and A1. But maybe I have to crank up the Edge or something sometime soon. I tend to not put on more than 4 sprays of Edge, in fear that I\'ll totally turn off a girl. Also I\'m a big dude, 6\'5\" 265 lbs, and I\'ve been told I intimidate some girls, so I don\'t want to be too overbearing.

Of course, this could all be bullshit, because when she was younger and played softball she broke her nose, so she may not even have a fucking VNO, and in that sense, I\'m putting a lot of money down the drain on her (she\'s not my only target, I have about 4 I\'m pursuing right now). Or maybe her VNO is somewhat damaged and she\'d only respond to a major overdose? Maybe I should try to OD with her (?)

we\'ll see what happens,

JDM
Thinking outloud here, as usual.

Teak
05-04-2002, 08:48 AM
Can people subconsciously realise which person the pheromones are coming from I wonder. After all, since normal smells are consciously recognised, it\'s quite easy for someone to work out who is wearing a certain fragrance if they are in reasonable distance (unless it\'s weak or overpowered by other smells). But what about pheromones which are supposedly subconsciously detected. It\'s probably OK when the number of possible originators is limited (on a date, 1on1\'s, etc) or even repeated exposure. But what about when the number of possibles is increased. Say you are in a group of male friends. Would wearing pheromones specifically benefit you or the group as a whole. Could it just cause a general sexual reaction in a girl which would just excite or get her in the mood. Where she\'d then go with whichever guy she liked the best in terms of other factors (looks, previous contact and personality, etc)? Or can the subconscious pheromone effect be more localised?

[ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: Teak ]

**DONOTDELETE**
05-04-2002, 03:12 PM
Well, perhaps the association could be made stronger by:

1. Repeatedly coming near and retreating from her. She should eventually associate her reaction with your proximity.

2. Applying the pheros to the axillary region so that the phero dose is pulsed with the motion of your arms. The phero association with your movement might be beneficial compared to a constant dose.

jamesdeanmartin
05-05-2002, 06:06 AM
Here\'s an update from the other night. I spent a couple nights with \"Anne\" at a coffee shop (I\'ve put together a new mix, 40% SPMO, 40% Edge, 10% A1, 10% PI). It seemed to be working well, she was complimenting me and flirting a lot (even more than usual). But I ended up bolting early, and it turns out she later got invited to some party and ended up making out with three different guys that night. One, a 24-year old drug dealer, was one of the best make out sessions of her life. She is not really that type of girl, but I have a bad feeling that I may have promoted all of this with the mones. Maybe I\'m just paranoid. Two couples have emerged out of our group of friends recently who I regularly wear the mones around. And these are highly unlikely couples, very strange people on the outskirts of my group of friends. I\'m really beginning to wonder how specifically women target the source of the pheromones, because a lot of guys around me are getting more play than I am right now. I\'m tempted to stop wearing the stuff, to see if they stop getting the play.

Anyway, \"Anne\" cancelled plans with me last night (for the first time in a very long time), in hopes that this drug dealer guy would call her because \"she really wanted to hook up with him\".

Time to move on?

I\'m pondering which law school to attend in the fall, and one of my main considerations is how far away I\'ll go. We\'re very close, I\'m very attached to her and it would be hard to imagine a day going by without spending time with her. But I often feel like she drags me down, she has a drug problem and I\'ve carried her ass home puking up white stuff a time or two. I\'m often the fall-back friend, who takes care of her and watches out for her. It often feels like she is two different people, I see her at work, playing with children/how she acts with her family and her little brothers and it is very sweet and endearing, but I know the other side and it disturbs me.

I wonder if I need to just get the hell out of the area and away from her. In Jeffries\'
terminology I wonder if I\'m stuck in the \"supplicant\" position. I don\'t know how to change it though. Maybe getting away will clear my mind or something. I\'ve been locked up writing my honors thesis and haven\'t had much interaction with single females for the past two months. Maybe my interest is due to lack of options? There seems to be a cycle with us. I\'ve gained and lost interested in her three of four times in the time we\'ve known each other (she has only shown interest in me within the past three months, although she has also shown interest in about 7 other guys too, which boggles my mind). The problem is, I have overheard her say it and my friends have verified that she likes to exaggerate her interest in other guys/exploits with other guys in front of me (\"to get me going\"), toying with me if you will. She knows me perhaps better than I know myself, and knows I get very fucking jealous. I don\'t know if she does this due to a genuine interest or other reasons.

I guess the problem is that we stay friends, we get along almost too well. So I\'m afraid I\'ll never stop going into these periods of liking her while she is interested in someone else for the rest of my life. And I don\'t want to be stuck in these situations forever. Most of my friends agree that she will grow out of this and eventually come around, but I wonder how long it will take.

Sorry I didn\'t intend for this to turn into a therapy session, but she is really on my mind right now. The sad thing is, she is worth all the crap I tend to go through. Our chemistry is second to none, I\'ve never been able to talk to anyone, man or woman, the way I can talk to her, and its been like that long before I started wearing pheros. Oh yeah, and she is unfuckingbelievably gorgeous, she looks a lot like Angelina Jolie with red hair.

JDM
Oh yeah, and the 24-year old drug dealer didn\'t call her last night at all, dumbass. But I guess that\'s good for me.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-05-2002, 06:36 AM
James be a MAN. Don\'t let females disrespect you. Fall into that trap and all you will expirience is misery for a very long time.

If a girl did that too me, I wouldnt give her a second thought, unless all I wanted was sex and thats it.

Seriously, dont put up with ambivilance from females who dont deserve your respect or attention.

This the way I see things, if she is worth it, chase her, if she is not, get what you want from her and move quick. This girl sounds like the latter, but im sure your the best judge of that.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-05-2002, 06:52 AM
Gents

Remember, chicks are into two different types of \"guy\", depending on what they want them for ;~}

Chicks who are looking to settle down are after \"Mr Dependable\", the nice guy, who will remain around the \"nest\" to tend the kids.

Chicks who are sfter fun, sex and procreation are into \"Mr Bastard\", the Alpha male who treats them crappy, but who sires kids with strong genes.

Your \"approach\" has to be compatable with the phyche of your subject.....

Boomshankah!

**DONOTDELETE**
05-05-2002, 06:53 AM
James,Get out and far away from this woman as possible.She is going to fuck with your mind and destroy your personality. I know I\'ve been there myself when I was in my teens and late twenties.She will destroy your confidence,self worth, so much so that you may end up needing counselling. What is going on with you now with this girl,will affect every relationship with women you have in the future,unless you get out now and heal your wounded emotions and let her go. I know this isn\'t what you want to hear,but it is the Truth.
This girl is out of control because of her drug taking and you are out of control because of your attachment to her.The only way out for you is to break away from her,leave the area if possible to give yourself enough time to deal with all your emotions and get yourself back.If you are attached as much as you say you are ,it will take about 18 months for your emotions to return to normal.
I wish you all the luck and love in the world,it\'s hard ,I know from experience,but it needs to be done for your sanity.

Taffy images/icons/smile.gif

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Taffy ]

**DONOTDELETE**
05-05-2002, 08:50 PM
James if someone bump my head one time, shame on them. If they bump it two time, shame on me. How many time will it take before you really realize that Annie is bumping your head. This is the saddest post I read in a long time.

I\'m not sure if it is the pheremones that drive Annnie to popping every body but you. sounds like she is a natural popper except with you.

\"Hit the road Jame and don\'t you back no mo, no mo. Hit the road James, and don\'t you look back no mo.\"

\"Hit the road Jame and don\'t you back no mo, no mo. Hit the road James, and don\'t you look back no mo.\" images/icons/laugh.gif

Whitehall
05-06-2002, 09:03 AM
I\'ve wasted time with chicks like that - in retrospect, I should have walked long before I finally did. You, being the nice guy, just give her space to be the wild child. You still \"like\" her no matter how bad she behaves because you want her to be \"wild\" with you. It ain\'t gonna happen until the day comes she is so scuzzy no one else will have her then she might turn to you to validate her attractiveness.

I wish someone had given me the above advice before I had to learn the hard way.

\"Any fool can learn from their own mistakes; a wise man learns from the mistakes of others.\"

Watcher
05-06-2002, 11:44 AM
Oh look as far as friends and others around you getting together consider it the norm, well many many around me are hooking up and have hooked up whilst it seems that myself always miss. You just gotta keep trying this is great for social contacts. Try doing some weight work jamesdeanmartin build up and also try accelerated learning to get smarter.
Speed reading mind mapping and mega memory help on the study side of things and leaves more time for other life activities and self improvement.
As far as this drug dealer friend well remain a friend but try finding someone who is sexually receptive to you first.
Women are changing into more a single race.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-06-2002, 12:54 PM
James-

As best you can, you need to get away from Annie as soon as possible! She\'s totally screwing with your head. She knows she has you wrapped around her finger, and the sooner you accept it, the sooner you can move on.

Doing the \"take-away\" on Annie (I\'m talking about your time, attention, and money) will not only get you focusing on what you need to do for YOU, but it will also let you know where she stands. Fuck the idea that \"she will grow out of it.\" Is that all you\'re worth, waiting around for someone else to validate you?

No way. Start meeting other girls, and start improving yourself - and don\'t improve yourself in ways you think would please Annie, either. You\'re not doing this for her. Life is too short to wait around for someone else. Like Whitehall said in another post, \"Next!\"

Morning Wood

**DONOTDELETE**
05-06-2002, 01:16 PM
James, you have two explosive elements here:

a) Annie is not Mother Theresa
b) You painfully love her

Please do yourself a favor and stop that as soon as you can, for as long as it takes you not to love her anymore (long time, believe me).

Otherwise you are getting hurt big time.

She will probably look out for you when you leave, to get back his slave...

jamesdeanmartin
05-06-2002, 03:06 PM
Thanks for the advice guys :-)

I\'ll keep everyone updated. It\'s not too hard for me to get away from her, I do it every couple months, the problem is that as soon as my other relationships fall apart I always come back to her. We are sort of a safety blanket for each other.

I just need to get out and meet new people, I\'m definitely stuck in a bit of a rut.

JDM

**DONOTDELETE**
05-06-2002, 11:39 PM
Hmm... I noticed a target was friendlier than normal today, but she was also friendlier with other guys. Maybe, the association is a problem, unless you can hog up her attention. =P.

Teak
05-07-2002, 04:15 AM
Or maybe she was just in a good mood? Unfortunately it\'s not easy to isolate the pheromone effect in the real-world, with so many others factors to consider with us humans. It could be the pheromones, or it could be wishful thinking on your part (reading more into something than there really is), trying to justify spending money on pheromones products. Maybe it was the pheromones, maybe it was just her mood or maybe a combination of both or more...who knows.

jamesdeanmartin
05-07-2002, 06:13 AM
Update: \"Annie\" decided to make it official with a guy she was casually dating. Talking amongst my friends the past few days they agree with most everything said on the forum, although most point out the ackwardness only happened in the past two months when neither one of us had a significant other (and I started wearing pheros around her). Maybe men and women can\'t be friends, like Billy Crystal says :-)

I think my posts may have made her out to be a tad slutty, when previously this was not the case. She\'s only been with 5 guys total, and she\'s 21 years old. I\'m just afraid that wearing the pheros around her has pumped up her libido because she has been going horny a lot lately, and I was afraid (still am perhaps) that my pheros would turn her into a slut.

Anyway, I\'m somewhat relieved \"Annie\" has a boyfriend now, I\'m not worried about getting her in the sack, and two more targets are returning from college this week so I\'ll be able to spend a lot of time with them.

Once again though, thanks for the advice guys.

I spent time last night with four of my friends using my new mix (40% TE, 40% SPMO, 10% A1, 10% PI). We were at a bar, and I flirted with the bartender for a bit, and she ended up feeding me free drinks all night long. Also, two of my friends who are a couple hung out for a little bit, then had to excuse themselves (\"to go sleep\") this was at like 10:30, and they were all over each other, so I\'m thinking they weren\'t going back to just sleeping.

I caught both of my female friends who were out with us giving me a gaga DIHL look, but I didn\'t know how to respond because they both have boyfriends and I\'m not interested in either one. Also I noticed something strange. When my two friends came over to me, they appeared \"normal\" in the chest (this is hard to describe). However within ten minutes of sitting with me, both had visibly hard nipples poking out of their shirts. I think errect nipples are a sign of sexual arousal (I could be wrong). Or maybe we were just sitting somewhere cold. Actually it wasn\'t cold at all, it was a pretty warm crowded bar. Another acquaintance was at the bar (actually a drug friend of Annie\'s), she came over to talk to me. She is a card-carrying lesbian, and was generally cold to me before I started wearing pheros. She came over and didn\'t stop complimenting me on how I looked, and reached for my crotch once (she played it off as a joke). This was before she started drinking. She eventually came back a little tanked and sat in my lap. It actually got annoying because I couldn\'t get rid of her, I mean she\'s a lesbian and I\'m not interested in her (a little on the nasty sort of heroin sheik style, I mean she\'s hot but a little dirty).

I guess these are positive signs. Once again though, I had no intention of arousing my friends with boyfriends, or Annie\'s annoying lesbian friend, I wanted
to go to the bar to meet new women.

Anyway, Psychologists discuss receiving a stimulus and then labeling it. I think for best results, you really need to be one on one with a girl. That eliminates the possibility of her attributing the stimulus to someone else. In many social situations, a girl doesn\'t get close enough to you so that she can distinguish your smell from the smell of others.

I have no backgound in this area, I\'m just thinking outloud.

JDM

**DONOTDELETE**
05-07-2002, 12:53 PM
James-

When going out with your platonic pals, use them to your advantage to meet other women - especially if she\'s a hottie, getting turned on by your pheromones!

Think about it...what better than a third-party endorsement of you to another woman by an \"erect-nippled platonic hottie!\"

Now, remember, when going out with platonic friends, they have the same status as a MALE friend...if you\'re hitting on other ladies in your friend\'s presence, and she\'s getting upset, it can only mean one of two things...

1. She\'s really not your friend
2. She\'s interested in you romantically, and you just haven\'t seen it yet.

I\'m glad to hear that \"Annie\" has left you alone. That must be a big relief. Good luck this week with your returning college friends!

Morning Wood

Bruce
05-07-2002, 01:19 PM
James,
You are getting some great advice here. The only thing that is keeping you from sealing the deal with Anne is that you are not an ass hole. She hangs out with you because you are a \"nice guy\"; you are even getting her revved up as you mention, but she is banging the drug dealers because she is programmed for self destruction. Reminds me of the old movie \"Searching for Mr. Goodbar.\" Anne is living out a part a script which I don\'t think you really want to play a role in. My advice is to get out and find someone else. Make it a full time duty if you have to, but get the job done. You may even find Anne hunting you down when she notices you have abandoned her, but keep on walking. \"Nice guys\" don\'t always finish last. They just finish last with women who are programed for self distruction; or worse end up as a hood ornament while she is in the back seat bonking a drug dealer. Keep following the high road and eventually you will end up with a woman who is looking for a happy ending to her story.
Good Luck,
Bruce

**DONOTDELETE**
05-07-2002, 02:05 PM
Bruce, I have to totally agree with your advice to James about taking the high road.

It\'s funny that the way how others will treat you (without pheromones) is a direct reflection of your self-image. Everything that we as men do to improve ourselves is an attempt to improve our self-image in one way or another.

It\'s also funny that women are able to pick up on our self-image within 30 seconds by the way how we carry ourselves, our body language, and our speech. I think we men forget this...women\'s radar is much more perceptive than ours.

Unfortunately, improving our self-image is much more difficult and time-consuming than spraying on pheromones. However, the long-term benefits of improving our self-image far exceeds any short-term benefits of spraying on pheromones.

Think of how \"dangerous\" we would be with a healthy self-image, AND the right phero mix? Both take time to figure out. I still haven\'t found the phero mix that\'s right for me, but that\'s okay. It, just like improving our self-image is just a matter of time, if we\'re persistent about it...

James, by taking the high road, you\'ll eventually find someone who\'s attracted to you and respects you at the same time...

Once again, Good Luck!

Morning Wood

Watcher
05-07-2002, 05:01 PM
A side note i agree with bruce on that one the other point to understand is that with female friends when wearing pheros around women in general it will more often than not get thier libido up and they search out anyone in the vincinity (sometimes avoid you because you are to good looking - a lack of self belief and confidence plus the old intimidation problem.) Although if you have been working out where you were skinny before and not attracting women but getting shit all over by the other males of the world you will know get more respect because you are bulked up and put youreself in greater stead even if you do intimidate it will mean more opportunites from youre effort in other life areas (business social etc)

Speaking from personal experience if you do work out you will start attracting attention from the really good looking ones. The females who never get any because they are so good looking that 1. Guys never approach or 2. They become so alpha female in their behaviour that they flirt but dont deliver when things get serious with normal mere skinny males because it gets them prestige and power.

As far as pheros well just go run amok in some mall somewhere or other public venue with a pheromone OD or get dressed up in a clown suit. Hey jambat personal joke again.