JVK and everyone else: did you see this?

[HB_88]

Women aroused by breastfeeding odors (?!) (\"http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992205\")

Questions:
Is this technically a pheromone?
Where can I get some?

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[jvkohl]

Yes, I\'ve seen different reports on this. It appears that there is a pheromone associated, but it is also unlikely that any particular pheromone will be isolated. What needs to happen is for a progesteronic pheromone to be tested on women; Berliner\'s Erox/Realm group has isolated one that decreases LH and testosterone in men). If such a pheromone increase LH in women (as I suspect it would) the connection would be more clear.

Such signals are common in the animal kingdom. There are aggregation pheromones which bring animals together, for example. There are also pheromones that seem to say it\'s okay to reproduce, and those that, when absent, tend to shut down reproductive efforts. The effect is largely dependent upon food supplies. For example, in anorexic women estrogen levels decline, and therefore we expect estrogenic pheromones to decline. They reach a point where their menstrual cycle stops, meaning they are infertile. And, at this point, they would be sending either a negative signal--or simply no signal--to men who would be far less likely to waste any reproductive effort on such a woman. Same thing with obesity, only we expect that women who are obese send more androgenic (male) pheromone signals. That\'s why height/weight proportionate makes such a difference in society (at least in my opinion). The waist-to-hip (WHR) ratio of 0.7 has been shown to be most attractive in women; 1.0 in men. The WHR is an indicator of fertility/fitness as it is dependent upon levels of sex hormones: estrogens/androgens that determine body fat distribution. This information is included in the update of my book (which should be available in paperback sometime in July).

[Whitehall]

Since the average child needs paternal support until 14 to 16 or so, women tend to ensure that the man they mate with will live long enough so that the prospective offspring will still have the father\'s support until independent. So a touch of grey is easily compensated for by an aura of power, vigor and health - field experience speaking here.

As to females, I think \"skinny\" is largely associated in the mind with \"young.\" I much prefer a slightly zaftig female with a little fat on a womanly figure (correct hip/waist ratio.) Healthy levels of estrogen are reflected in a bit of padding - keep your skinny \"hardbodies\" - women should be soft and yielding.

As to breast-feeding aromas, I\'ve often posted that our understanding of female pheromones is just beginning with copulins. Breasts (feeding or not) have an attractive aroma of their own - Eau d\' Orbs perhaps?

[xvs]

Being thin while pregnant is seen as best.

According to a large Swedish study, women thin at the outset of their first pregnancy are more inclined to give birth to healthy infants than overweight women or women of normal weight.

Cnattingius S, Bergstrom R, Lipworth L, Kramer MS. Prepregnancy weight and the risk of adverse pregnancy outcomes. New England Journal of Medicine 1998 January 15;338(3):147-152.

Wolfe H. High prepregnancy body-mass index - A maternal-fetal risk factor.[editorial] New England Journal of Medicine 1998 January 15;338(3):191-192.

[Whitehall]

In modern day conditions, thin women can carry a child easily because they have little chance of an interuption in food supplies. Bet these women never missed a meal or snack or ever had to go hungry.

\"In the wild,\" meals aren\'t always that steady so some stored energy in the form of fats can come in handy.

Besides, there is something to the adage \"built for comfort...\"

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Completely off-topic, but somehow connected images/icons/laugh.gif :

I just finished five hours in the studio recording my song, \"I\'m Not Built for Speed\". The chorus:

\'Cause I am built for comfort, I am not built for speed.
If you like it off the walls, I\'m not what you need.
Lovin\' ain\'t no contest, satisfaction guaranteed.
So lay down here and take your time, \'cause I\'m not built for speed.

[jvkohl]

The waist to hip ratio of 0.7 is seen as being most attractive cross-culturally and across time. The paintings of Reubens show what by today\'s standards are obese women, but their measurements show 0.7 WHR. Same thing with the Playboy models since 1954. Despite other measurements, calculations show that the WHR is always very close to 0.7. I\'ve noted that the visual appeal of such pictures is conditioned by olfactory cues, but many of the researchers still don\'t get the connection (via biology). Then, when I ask them how homosexual males become visually attracted to other males, they go silent. I\'ll soon be explaining the development of male homosexuality in installments in the Across Species Comparisons in Psychopathology newsletter. Expect to take some flack for this, but wanted to do the explanation before someone else \"thought\" of it.

Off to Laughlin, Nevada tomorrow for a motorcycle rally (approx 10,000 bikers). So, I\'ll be out of touch for a few days.

[xvs]

In this same vein, it also appears to be true that younger, skinnier (but not anorexic) women are more likely to produce healthy babies. So they would logically be more attractive to men. (References for the \"skinnier\" part of this available on request. The \"younger\" is generally known.)

I don\'t know that the same holds true for men. I think that men are attractive from the start of their power (late teens) to the decline of it (50 or so?).

[xvs]

JVK: Is your explanation for homosexuality based on the idea that with increasing population density homosexuality functions as a natural mechanism for slowing population growth, and is developmentally mediated by exposure to lots of male hormones, resulting from the high density of males around?

If so, I thought of it a long time ago images/icons/smile.gif

BTW, Bassman... your song? That sounds a whole lot like Howlin\' Wolf and Willie Dixon\'s \"Built for Comfort\"

Some folk built like this, some folk built like that
But the way I\'m built, you shouldn\'t call me fat
Because I\'m built for comfort, I ain\'t built for speed
But I got everything all the good girls need

etc. (for all the lyrics see: http://www.bluesforpeace.com/lyrics/built-for-comfort.htm (\"http://www.bluesforpeace.com/lyrics/built-for-comfort.htm\")

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: xvs ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Very interesting. I even managed to get the \"take your time\" into it.

I copyrighted mine a couple of years ago, but that doesn\'t really mean anything, since nobody at library of congress checks submissions to see how similar they are to somebody else\'s work.

I recorded this as a demo for a songwriting class critique. I will take both songs in to the class - it should at the least generate some entertaining discussion. As you can imagine, this sort of thing happens quite frequently.

Thanks for catching it. I guess I\'m in for a major re-write on this one...

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: BassMan ]

[jvkohl]

Out of town but using a relative\'s computer. Re: Homosexuality.
I explain it as merely a variation on a developmental theme. It\'s quite common in other mammals, and definitely linked to scent (as well as to luteinizing hormone). The population density thing is evolutionary psych, which gets us nowhere. My explaination in brief:
A \"gay\" gene or genes inhibit GnRH neurons from migrating to the hypothalamus, thus limiting the GnRH pulse frequency. This causes incomplete sexual differentiation before a child is born (including incomplete sexual differentiation of the olfactory system(s). From birth, the genetically predisposed homosexual male does not exhibit the same response to opposite sex pheromones as does the heterosexual male. The homosexual response is somewhat in between that of heterosexual males and females. The brain is wired through experience to respond to cues in context with pheromones. Pheromones continue to wire the brain throughout life. By puberty, the sexual response is somewhat hardwired, but can be changed with rewarding experiences, or rewarding experiences can simply help to hard-wire the brain. Thus, orgasm, associated with pheromonal and other sensory input becomes a powerful reinforcer of genetically predisposed sexually differentiated behavior. If sexual differentition is incomplete, bisexual or homosexuality is the result.

No way I can do justice to the full explanation--it\'s an 18 page paper that will be published in Across Species Comparisons in Psychopathology soon--in two installments. Once its available on line, I\'ll let everyone know. Please hold other comments till then. The model I use to explain homosexuality is the same as the one I\'ve used to explain heterosexuality. Indeed, the same model -must- be used, or like the evolutionary psych approach, all you have is a crap shoot.

[Whitehall]

From what I read, the homosexual population is a fairly constant portion of the population across time and cultures. I don\'t think that density issues are the cause although overcrowding has been shown to increase homosexual behavior in rat colonies.

If one presumes that homosexuality has a genetic component and that homosexuals have a lower probability of progeny, then homosexuality must have some species-wide advantages, as would alturism. The first premise has increasing scientific backing, but the second has some studies contradicting it. One study quoted in \"Sperm Wars\" says that homosexuals are every bit as likely to successfully reproduce as heterosexuals! Hard to believe - there must be more \"fag hags\" out there doing more than we straights ever suspected.

The argument then goes that the genetic rewards of homosexuality are in balance with the increased risks that the homosexual lifestyle involves. (A long-time friend and colleague died from AIDS - I was in the office one Saturday when he came in to clean out his desk.)

JVK has claimed that visual cues are strickly conditioned based on exposure to pheromones while viewing \"role models\" who smell genetically superior and are not inherited as visual models. Ergo, all visual preferences are formed from exposure to inherited pheromone preferences. (I hope I\'ve stated his argument correctly.)

My rejoiner is that if this was true, would a young man, who has never seen a mature naked women nor been breast-feed, need a scratch-and-sniff edition of Playboy to know he likes boobs and a proper hip/waist ratio?

This is a test that could be performed in the real world to check his hypothesis.

I would be very interested as to how JVK would explain the visual conditioning of homosexuals. It might be an opening as to how homosexuals differ neurologically from heterosexuals.

[xvs]

Nice!

You have a very specific and somewhat testable hypothesis there! I am looking forward to reading the paper and I hope you will give us a link when it\'s online.

Actually though, I don\'t think that your hypothesis is necessarily antithetical to the one I proposed. If what I suggested is also true, the mechanism could be one in which the fetus\'s or child\'s development is affected by the environment and the brain changes which occur could be those you propose.

[Whitehall]

A question i\'ve always asked is \"why are homosexuals universally disdained?\"

My explanation fits with JVK\'s conditioning process. A parent makes his life\'s most significant investment in the reproductive success of his or her offspring. The presumption is that a homosexual is LESS likely to reproduce than a normal heterosexual. Hence, a homosexual has the potential of recruiting one\'s child into a hterosexual lifestyle and hence reducing the number of one\'s grandchildren.

Also, the health risks of the homosexual lifestyle can be a social cost to all since most homosexuals are to some degree bi-sexual.

[HB_88]

I hope JVK is alright... I saw on the news that there was some sort of motorcycle gang shootout in Laughlin, NV... images/icons/shocked.gif

HB_88

[jvkohl]

I didn\'t get to Laughlin till after the bad boys had it out. Hammers? 60-70 people involved? I wonder how much was media interpretation. Most of the regular folk hadn\'t even heard what happened by the time I left, and I only learned about it when I got back to Vegas. Had a good time with the \"normal\" people, including some of the outlaw club members.

[HB_88]

JVK:

Glad to hear that you\'re OK. I find your posts illuminating, and I wouldn\'t want them to stop for any reason -- motorcycle gangs or otherwise.

Like A Rollin\' \'Mone...
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