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a.k.a.
04-06-2002, 12:06 PM
Less is more.

More economical. More like your natural “pheromone signature”. More attractive to younger women. More broadly appreciated. More seductive. More likely to get you a date. More likely to get you laid.

I recently had the opportunity to “test” pheromones on a whole lot of women while attending a series of workshops. I kept logging on, during breaks, to share my results. But I kept getting frustrated at not being able to respond to everything. So I decided to write this “catch all” post. I hope it’s a little provocative.

My impression is that at least half of the guys posting here are ODing. My idea of a classic “hit” is when a girl turns her head and smiles at you. If she just turns her head and doesn’t smile, that’s a probable hit. If she gives you the DIHL, you don’t know what’s up. If she loses concentration, spaces out, miscounts your change, etc., that’s an OD in my book. (You might get lucky — especially in a bar, where this kind of behavior is common — but you’re not getting the most out of your pheromones.)

The point of pheromones is to increase your sex appeal and give people a more favorable impression of you. Like Justine mentioned in one of her posts, the point is to ENHANCE your natural scent — not to drown it out with pheromones and cologne.

Sure, there will always be that 1-2% of girls that get all worked up when they get a whiff of someone that smells like a sex-crazed teenager on steroids. If you want to use pheromones as bait to lure these women into your bed for one night, be my guest. (In my experience, these adventures always turn into something awkward – if not demoralizing – very quickly.) If you want to be free to chose who you’re going to date or hook up with, you need to have the confidence that EVERY woman finds you at least a little bit more attractive.

Sure, girls that know you are less likely to freak out if you’re sending extreme pheromone signals. On a good day, they might find you suddenly irresistible. Then when you, or your mega pheromones, aren’t around she might wonder what made her feel that way. She might attribute it to hormones. But if you USE LESS a subtle message that you are sexier than she previously realized will be imprinted in her subconscious mind. Over time she will get hooked on you, instead of your pheromones.

ANDROSTENONE

A lot of posts are saying that androstenone is not good for young guys, or for attracting young girls. I’m 43, but I’m very skeptical of this.

I’ve read posts from young guys that have had success with APC or Lure. That’s telling me that anybody can benefit from supplementing their androstenone; if they can just use a little restraint.

I’m open to the possibility that APC is too weak for some older guys. I have to confess that I get more hits by supplementing it. But I’m the kind of person that can easily sense when pheromones are working and when they’re not. Without pheromones I’m invisible. Nobody notices me. Women are very hard to impress. Even though APC is a lightweight product, even though I’m old, three dabs is enough to put me on the radar. Women are much easier to impress.

This tells me you don’t need much androstenone to be successful.

When it comes to products like PI or NPA, I can pour one drop on the sink, lightly dip my little pinky in it, dab that small amount on my neck, and I get hits.

I believe that most of the guys testing these products with no results are actually ODing and they don’t know it.

James V. Kohl is saying that androstenone is not a good pheromone to supplement, period. I have to wonder what concentrations were used in the studies he refers to. I begin to see the effectiveness drop off at around .3 mg/ml and my optimum concentration is .1mg/ml.

With TE I can still get good results with two sprays. But I have to use a ton of cologne because the stuff is so stinky. This brings me to the next topic.

COLOGNE

I think most guys are using way too much cologne.

In my day to day life, I run into lots of guys that don’t use cologne. Lots of guys that use too much cologne. And a handful of guys that actually know how to use cologne. Like Wilde Oscar mentioned in one of his posts, think about how it smells to you and think about how it smells an arm’s length away. At arm’s length, women should be just getting a hint of it. “Is that cologne you’re wearing?” At kissing distance they should be thinking. “Mmm... you smell nice.”

If a woman is complementing you on your cologne from three feet away, she’s just patronizing you. If guys are complementing you, you probably need a shower.

When I read posts by guys that are getting good hits with something like 2 drops PI + 2 dabs NPA, I’m thinking “That guy must smell like a perfume factory.”

Sure, If you get heavy with the cologne, you can get away with a whole lot of pheromones. But you’re just wasting your money and, many girls are going to automatically assume you’re sleazy, and, even if you get lucky, they’re likely to have second thoughts in the morning.

Cologne should blend with your pheromones. Just as pheromones should blend with your natural scent.

ANDRO 1

Lot’s of guys are using this stuff by the dropper and reporting “good” results: happy spouses, talkative chicks, horny gf’s, elevated moods etc..

I am getting classic hits with two small dabs at .25mg/ml. At .5mg/ml the number of hits begin to drop off.

ANDROSTENOL

Yes, you can pour this stuff on and girls will talk your ear off and everybody’s happy and the worst that can happen is you get a headache. But what’s the point?

Three or four swipes of SOE will get you all the desired results and adding more is just going to make people wonder why the heck you’re wearing so much cologne.

MINDFRAME

Have you ever smelled bread baking? Doesn’t that steamy, musky, slightly pungent smell make your mouth water?
But have you ever held your nose up to a block of yeast or a lump of sourdough?

Experimenting with pheromones is like trying to recreate the steamy, musky, slightly pungent smell of a physically fit, sexually aroused, young male stepping out of a hot shower. Very few women can remain unaroused when this scent hits their nose. On the other hand, very few women are going to lose their cool. (Do you binge every time you walk into a bakery?) If you can’t work with that, you need something besides pheromones (probably social skills), and smelling like a yeast factory — or, rather, a pig farm — isn’t going to improve the situation.


Cheers to all & thanks for indulging my rant

**DONOTDELETE**
04-06-2002, 01:23 PM
Hi, a.k.a., I\'m starting to listen to you, because you make a lot of sense. Unfortunately, I can\'t smell the pheros well, so I can\'t let my nose be the judge for cologne / phero mixes.

I\'m interested in two details:

1. Concentration: You said that two dabs of 0.25 mg/ml andro-1 gives you better results than 0.5 mg/ml. What about using 1 dab at 0.5 mg/ml. Is it the concentration or the dosage? I have always thought dosage was more important.

2. Skin application: Are you applying everything using dabs on skin? What are your throughts on clothing application? I don\'t like to refresh. Have you found the need to refresh with minimal dosages on the skin?

Thanks a lot for your report!

Whitehall
04-06-2002, 01:49 PM
Lot\'s of good advice here but I do have one criticism of the studies you mentioned. If you look at the methodology, the subjects are asked to verbally self-rate the effects in one form or another. The problem with this is that the verbal centers in the brain are not the part you want to reach. You want to stir the limbic system which is way-deep in the brain - think of it as the emotional foundation of the human, no mammilian, brain. What is of interest is not words but actions and few studies have found a way to measure that.

a.k.a.
04-06-2002, 03:00 PM
truth,

I assume concentration determines the strength of the message whereas quantity determines the probability of it reaching the girl\'s brain. I\'m sure it\'s not that simple, however. A spray of TE is more effective than a couple of dabs, for example. I may even be totaly wrong about what is more decisive, concentration or quantity. I\'ll see what one dab at .5mg/ml does. But, in the meantime, I\'m sure that when you\'re dealing with anything as concentrated as TE or higher it\'s virtually impossible to under-dose. You may not be turning every girl\'s head, but if you stop and talk to her the mones will inevitably hit her.
Once a lady invited me to her place after a date. She started getting tired and hinted that I should get going. I asked to use her bathroom and applied one tiny little dab of APC on my wrist. This seemingly insignificant amount of androstenone was decisive in changing her mind, and I ended up spending the night.

I apply to skin because I want my clothes to come off eventually. And I use dabs because it\'s easier to apply small amounts.

I don\'t like to refresh either. I\'m sold on the theory of -nol to -none conversion because anything with as much -nol as AE or higher seems to actually improve with time.

Whitehall,
I don\'t understand. What studies am I refering to? I\'m trying to speak from experience.

Anyway thanks for reading my post.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-06-2002, 03:06 PM
A.K.A.

I think Whitehall meant the studies JVK mentioned that proved a-none is not a good phero. You wrote about it in your post. images/icons/wink.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
04-06-2002, 03:28 PM
That\'s one thing I don\'t get. Why do people apply -nol to skin with the intention that it\'ll convert to -none? Why not just apply -none if you want -none? Perhaps, the -nol converts into other androgens besides -none that are not included in any formula (?).

a.k.a.
04-06-2002, 03:38 PM
Franki,
OK I get it.Thanks.

truth,
Could be. My notion is that if you use a bit of -none and a bit more -nol, you\'re at least replenishing the -none that gets broken down by the bacteria on your skin. That way there\'s no need to replenish as often.

Anyway, one dose of SOE, or my 4111 formula, in the morning is still working great at 11pm.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-06-2002, 05:02 PM
What about your experiments with straight andro-1? Does it last as long?

**DONOTDELETE**
04-06-2002, 08:11 PM
\"I asked to use her bathroom and applied one tiny little dab of APC on my wrist. This seemingly insignificant amount of androstenone was decisive in changing her mind, and I ended up spending the night.\"

A.K.A. how appropiate is that handle? I\'m glad you understand the game and don\'t take it too much to the heart when chicks don\'t dig you without \'mones.

Just how much SOE you dab on?

Given what you\'ve observed about pheros I\'m going to cut in half the amount I put on. I shall report results as soon as these come in. Thanks for taking the time to add quality information.

Curious Dude

**DONOTDELETE**
04-07-2002, 05:05 AM
a.k.a. ;

Really good post and info.

Just when I\'m about to offer the pheromones I bought over two months ago as \'Free To Good Home\', your post now has be thinking otherwise.

Though I\'ve tried very small amounts (one or two dots of SoE only) and also purposely ODing as suggested by others ( two dabs of PI or NPA plus SoE stripes ) I\'ve yet to see a reactions that I\'d attribute to the pheromones. Your post makes me want to keep trying - at least until I use up what I\'ve already bought.

You mention your 4111 formula - what is that ?

You always use SoE by itself ? Do you ever ad PI or NPA with it ?

One more ; I have SoE, PI, NPA and APC. I see TE mentioned alot. Any reason to think that would work when what the items I have don\'t seem to ? images/icons/crazy.gif

Thanks for your time,

Jim

**DONOTDELETE**
04-07-2002, 06:38 AM
a.k.a,

When you are putting on 3-4 swipes of SOE, how long are the swipes?

**DONOTDELETE**
04-07-2002, 11:11 AM
I\'m actually close to Jim\'s boat. Even though I love talking about pheros, I\'m not even sure if they work for me!

I\'m also thinking about cutting down. I\'ve been playing with 0.02-0.05 mg (mostly on clothing), but I haven\'t tested 0.01 mg out except for the first few days I got my NPA back in November. After many months, I think my relationships with women might have been better overall before November! There has been incidents that might have been classified as hits, but I\'m not sure.

Back to Jim. You said that you tried one or two dots of SOE as your minimum dose. Have you tried one dab of NPA? I think the -none is the stuff that seems to work for some at minimal doses.

a.k.a.
04-07-2002, 11:42 AM
Well, I DID intend to provoke comments. But I didn’t mean to come off like the expert on everyone’s questions.
Anyway...

truth,
I’ve only tried andro 1 straight in the evening several times. Never long enough to see if it went through any conversion.

I can see (and appreciate) that there’s a lot of scientifically minded guys on this forum. I’m trying to speak your language, but I am not personally that methodical about testing. I just try random variations until I hit on something that gets a good response and then I have the confidence to wear it wherever.

curious dude,
Actually I do take it to heart, but life’s too short to stop and cry about it.

I wear 2-3 swipes on my neck and a dab between my wrists. (I say 2 OR 3 because sometimes the rollerball gets stuck and I don’t get a proper swipe the first time.)

Marty,
The swipes are about 3 inches. The dab is about half an inch.

The best way to gauge this stuff is like JVK recommended. Go by the scent of the cologne. If it’s coming on strong at arm’s length, it’s too much. If you can’t smell it on yourself, it may be too little.

Jim,
One or two dabs of SOE is less than I use. And I always use SOE alone. Going without androstenone creates a unique effect that I find very seductive. Also it seems that high concentrations of androsteRONE make it easy to OD with just a little androsteNONE.

Having said that, SOE has given me very few classic hits. It\'s a more subtle response that requires more interaction with the ladies. But the results are excellent. My sign that its working is when I can hold a girl\'s gaze for a long time.

4111 is a chem kit formula I made up. It contains about .07mg/ml each of -none, -rone, and Andro 1 and about .28mg/ml of -nol. It’s a very concentrated mixture, but I’m getting excellent results in small portions. (see my post “4:1:1:1”.)

About getting reactions from the stuff you’ve tried...

The first time I found a product that worked for me (APC), my only clue was while waiting in line at an ATM. A beutiful, young, redhead with a sexy hardbody turned around and smiled at me.

This sort of thing just never happened to me before, but I see it happening to other guys all the time. So maybe when you’re already tall, young and manly looking you take things for granted and it’s hard to gauge when the stuff is working.

Anyway, this single incident gave me the confidence that my pheros were working. This added confidence obviously made me carry myself in a different way and I started noticing more and more hits.

Later I went to a supermarket and spied this exotic looking girl with a proud walk that I just had to talk to. I walked by her several times to give her a whiff of the pheromones. But she didn’t even glance in my direction. So I had to work up the courage to strike up a conversation (“How can you tell if this melon is ripe?”). She gave me a big smile. We talked for about 15 minutes. I found out she was a photographer and asked if I could see her portfolio (thinking “someday soon”) and she said “sure” (meaning “why don’t you come to my place right now”). I ended up spending the night, and the next 10 months, until she got a job in NYC.

I don’t know. Maybe there’s some lessons in there. Or maybe I’m just ranting again.

PS If you\'re curious about TE just dilute some of your NPA with two parts ethanol.

Have you tried this? Rub a very tiny little dab of PI between your wrist. (NOT a whole drop. If you don’t mind wasting it, pour a drop on the sink, dip the tip of your pinky into it, and rub that small amount between your wrists.) Then cover that with a dab of APC. Apply two more dabs on your neck, and then go testing.

I think pure androstenone gives the most obvious hits. (Unfortunately, it\'s also the main culprit in OD\'s, so be sure to go easy on the PI.)

PPS Oops. I had to edit this post because my 4111 formula contains .07mg/ml of -none etc.. Told you I wasn\'t a scientist.
images/icons/crazy.gif

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: a.k.a. ]

**DONOTDELETE**
04-07-2002, 12:55 PM
One problem I have relating my experiences with the experience of the board is that I prefer clothing application. It seems like most people prefer either skin application or skin and clothing application. If I\'m not achieving good results, I\'m not sure if I\'m overdosing, because I\'m using the high range of 0.02-0.05 mg, or underdosing, because clothing application is less intense.

I don\'t like skin application because I prefer a more of a constant release rate over the day. I thought skin application is only good for about four hours. However, a.k.a, you tell me differently.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-07-2002, 02:44 PM
a.k.a.

Thanks for the response. I\'ll try your suggestions but somewhere along in the two months I\'m sure I did these amounts - especially at the beginning when James had me concerned about ODing as he questioned if I needed additional pheronones anyway.

As far as you being the \'expert\' .... images/icons/laugh.gif

Your hits make me believe there is something to them. The \'hit reports\' that come from the nightclub experiances, especially with the younger crowd, don\'t convince me of anything as far a pheromones are concerned.

IMO, those situations where people aren\'t acting themselves due to drinking, possible drug use and trying to come off as something they aren\'t (the typical pick-up act), women and men will do shit and act up in ways they wouldn\'t do in \'real life\' ( work, shopping, the gym, etc ). images/icons/crazy.gif I honestly don\'t see anything that unusual in having a girl grind against you dancing after she\'s had afew drinks. I attribute that to Margaritas, not Primal Instinct.

So to me a true test of the effectiveness of pheromones is how you have seen them work for you - in everyday situations - which is what I too have been expecting and hoping for, but haven\'t experianced.

Thanks again for the suggestions. images/icons/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
04-07-2002, 02:59 PM
A girl grinding against a guy when she had a few drinks is not unusual and due to alcohol consume, the difficulty is to be that guy. images/icons/laugh.gif

Here DO come phero´s in to play big way. believe me or not, with phero´s you sure get a lot more attention than normal, even when you are young and good looking.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-07-2002, 11:26 PM
On reason why low phero dosing may work better than high doses...

Directional sensing using the nose is likely poor. For instance, if something smells bad in the room, you generally need to locate the source by sniffing at various objects until you nail down the source. In other words, you need to move the nose around relative to the source to correlate the intensity changes to locate it.

If you wear a large dose of pheros, your radius of effect may be 10 feet, and your target may attribute the stimulation to anything within 10 feet of you. With a smaller dose, the radius may only be 2 feet, so she associates the stimulation only with you.

A theory...

Nutt
04-09-2002, 12:13 AM
good point, I think a lot of this stuff makes sence. What were the ammounts given off in those trials again? A lot of people were looking to match those levels, but a better way to enhance the natral level is surely not to nake it 200% of normal, but raise it to 125% of a normal male, following the suggestion of associating it with you rather than a freak occurance.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-09-2002, 12:38 AM
Unfortunately, the amount of pheros on our bodies is not is not known. There has been some very high and low estimates.

I tend to think that we must be applying much more than we normally produce (at least, for some components). Hey, few of us smell so bad normally that cologne is needed to cover up the stink. Even the lowest doses used on this forum requires some cover fragrance!

**DONOTDELETE**
04-09-2002, 07:31 AM
Thanks for these posts, a.k.a.

You\'ve given me something to think about.

Keep up the good work, bro.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-09-2002, 11:02 PM
Hmm... I think the minimal dosing is working better for me. The last two days I use just one spray of my cologne mix on clothing.

Approximate contents of one spray:

0.0070 mg andro-1
0.0035 mg -none
0.0030 mg -nol
0.0005 mg -rone

I made it out of andro-1, Edge, and SOE. By the way, these ratios are in the ballpark of what\'s been reported in human sweat.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 02:37 AM
Truth :

Your one of the only ones besides myself who hadn\'t seen results from your phero use. You say the smaller amounts seems to be working for you now. Can you tell me what you\'ve seen since taking a.k.a.\'s advice that was out of the ordinary ? Thanks.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 03:37 AM
I have also not had a sigle hit, ever.Please tell us Truth, what happened to make you say it\'s working for you?

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 05:09 AM
I have had hits both at minimal dosages and at the 0.015-0.030 mg -none levels.

When I first bought from love-scent, I bought a bottle of AE. I\'ve already posted the results of that one - the first time I wore it, 3-4 dabs changed a LJBF (let\'s just be friends) to a LJFOBO (let\'s just fuck our brains out) images/icons/laugh.gif Immediately appreciating the charm of pheros, and not wanting it to go away, I promptly bought AFA and Andro 4.2. I hadn\'t read this forum at all. I was going on the \"which one is best\" info on the main page. Being totally clueless, I dumped the 7.5 ml of AFA into a brand new 120 ml bottle of Good Life. Shortly thereafter, I added an equal amount (8 droppers full, at _very_ roughly 1ml/dropper) Andro 4.2 to the bottle. I started wearing this day-to-day and adding a couple of dabs of AE on dates. Life was very good.

Figure:

7.5ml AFA x 0.2mg/ml -none / 120 ml = 0.0125 mg/ml -none
7.5ml AFA x 0.2mg/ml -nol / 120 ml = 0.0119 mg/ml -nol
8.0ml A4.2 x 0.14mg/ml -none / 120 ml = 0.009 mg/ml -none

for a total of:
0.0125 + 0.009 = 0.0215 mg/ml -none
0.0119 mg/ml -nol

which is pretty close to 2:1 none:nol. The Good Life is at aftershave concentration, so if I\'m using .3-.5 ml per application (pour a little in hand), I\'m getting somewhere less than 0.010 mg of -none per app. I didn\'t know any better.

At those levels, I was finding very interesting hits. The main thing that I found was that it appeared to colapse female\'s personal space. I would start a conversation with a woman in the grocery store, and just see how close I could get physically to her before she moved away. Here in FL, that tends to be about arms length. With the low dosage pheros, we\'d end up inches away from each other with no discomfort on her part. This was happening fairly regularly.

Then I started reading the forum and went for the 0.015-0.030 -none doses. The hits changed considerably. At these doses, the character of the hits changes, they become more obviously sexual - giggly, sort of nervous, so_do_me sort of play. I\'ve posted some of these hits, too.

a.k.a.\'s 4:1:1:1 mix: made it up with chem set stuff and Issey. Wore it Monday to work, three small dabs, one rubbed in behind each ear, one between the wrists. Didn\'t notice anything out of the ordinary, but I wear pheros every day. Went to a class and everyone was very friendly, but then, they always are. Wore it Tuesday. Yum. Went to the grocery store, bakery counter and was standing there while waiting for a loaf of bread to be sliced. I\'d noticed a particular hottie earlier, but she was obviously with her bf, so wrote that one off. She walks up to me, and starts a conversation about whether I know if the bakery carries scones or not. Which I figure was a bit contrived, since the person to ask was the bakery worker, who was four feet away from us. So with her bf in tow (and looking a little uncomfortable) we get into a conversation about what kind of scones she likes, where she learned about them images/icons/laugh.gif Nice hit, a.k.a. Proof again that the low-dosage hits play very differently from the high ones. Now if only the bf hadn\'t been there images/icons/laugh.gif

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: BassMan ]

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 12:06 PM
Jim, nothing obvious to report. Quality of interaction is up. If this doesn\'t continue, it was probably a fluke. I never have women coming up to me, and I doubt I ever will, but if my interactions are improved consistently, I\'d be happy.

With low dosing like this, you\'re definitely not going to turn any heads. You have to interact with the women first.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 04:05 PM
Truth :

Good for you, maybe you finally have something going with the stuff - I hope so and hope it continues. images/icons/wink.gif

I don\'t have any trouble interacting with people, women included, so maybe I\'m just not noticing. I think what is real important here in judging pheromones true effectiveness is first DEFINING what a \'hit\' really is. What we call \'hits\' due to pheromone use means different things to different people.

A girl acting flirty with me or you and acting very sexy while dancing after some drinking in a popular nightclub - a place that draws male and female that are specifically OUT LOOKING for that from each other - is NOT unusual and doesn\'t require expensive pheromones. You just go, talk to a couple half-lit girls and you eventually get a pass made at you. If people are reporting such things as \'hits\' due to pheromones, I say they are misleading alot of other phero users, including themselves.

Now the phero magic I call REAL MAGIC - is what Mr A.K.A experianced. He goes to the supermarket for fruit and leaves 20 minutes later with his new girlfriend for the next ten months! THAT is a hit in my book!! That one is the best one reported so far no doubt about it!!

Or ... a woman starting a conversation with you first in a store, at a ATM machine, etc., etc. ,what I refer to as a \'real life situations\', which doesn\'t usually happen for you without pheromones or you breaking the ice first, I\'d also call a \'hit\' and something to pay attention to.

Those are MY definitions of \'real hits\' and if this kind of thing happens only when your wearing pheromones, then I say you\'ve got something going with them. A girl high on drinks or whatever, rubbing her ass on you while dancing in a pick-up bar, doesn\'t convince me it\'s supplemental pheromones at work but many other things. I\'m sure they could help in such an atmosphere, but the true test of their effectiveness for me is in the day-to-day, normal interactions with others ... which for me is something I haven\'t seen altered in the least after about three months of trial.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 04:28 PM
To unsuccesful users:

To be honest, I can´t BELIEVE you aren´t noticing ANYTHING out of normal when using mones.

The stuff you have is real quality stuff and most of us are reporting ´hits´ (whatever that maybe) or at least a change of behaviour when using phero´s.

I am not a techie so I don´t know why mones shouldn´t work with some people, but I think you MUST have SOMETHING going on

-------------------------------------------

I have had hits in and outside club environments and I CANNOT subscribe to Jim´s distinction of `club` hits and hits in day-to-day life. To me, all hits feel very much the same. When a girl gives a light DIHL in classroom or when she does that in a ´club´ environment, I don´t see much difference.

I must admit I haven´t been very detailed in reporting hits, I should take more care of that to make my point clear. images/icons/smile.gif

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 04:36 PM
I´m sorry, but sometimes I get a bit angry when I have to read my `club´ hits aren´t real hits. images/icons/frown.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 04:39 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim:

A girl acting flirty with me or you and acting very sexy while dancing after some drinking in a popular nightclub - a place that draws male and female that are specifically OUT LOOKING for that from each other - is NOT unusual and doesn\'t require expensive pheromones. You just go, talk to a couple half-lit girls and you eventually get a pass made at you. If people are reporting such things as \'hits\' due to pheromones, I say they are misleading alot of other phero users, including themselves.


NO, I am not misleading myself!


[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 04:49 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim:


a popular nightclub - a place that draws male and female that are specifically OUT LOOKING for that from each other -


Of course people are looking out for sexy dancing at a nightclub, BUT aren´t men and women always looking out for each other? At least I and a lot of people I know are. images/icons/smile.gif

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 06:31 PM
Don\'t worry Franki...our and all the other users who have had hits in clubs ARE!!! real hits....\'nuff said.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-10-2002, 08:42 PM
OK, I\'m here\'s my viewpoint. I\'m a scientist, no doubt, like many others here. Isolated \"hits\" don\'t mean anything to me. This happens with and without pheromones. Moreover, female interaction can be improved in many ways besides getting hits. My only question is whether pheromones improve our interaction with females in a subtle or pronounced way.

Regardless of James Kohl\'s criticisms, Winifred\'s Cutler\'s study is a step in the right direction. From what I understand, the study had subjects record a two week baseline on all types of interactions with members of the opposite sex (formal and informal dates, sex, conversation, etc.). Then one group received a placebo, and another group the phero product. Based on subsequent logs regarding interactions with members of the opposite sex, it can be statistically determined whether significantly more subjects in the phero group reported improved interactions on some dimensions. The improvement could be insignificant, small but stastically significant, or overwhelming.

Unfortunately, I can\'t do a blinded study with other people, so I just observe whether there\'s an overall improvement over baseline using an n of 1. If the improvement is subtle but real, I may never be convinced. There are many other factors like my mood, etc., that can affect my interactions with women.

I also do rely somewhat on forum feedback as, though I know it gives a biased perspective. The fact that people are reporting differences between products is actually more convincing evidence to me than the number of hits. If it were all placebo, I wouldn\'t have expected such different responses between products. Something is going on here...

The minimalist perspective makes sense to me, but the idea also worries me in some ways. Perhaps, pheros don\'t improve anything, but they may repel at high doses. Maybe, long-time phero users see improvements in female interactions when the dosage is lowered because the pheros don\'t repel as much. They would have seen the improvement if they had gone off the pheros all together! Reverse baseline!

Worse case scenario: Phero results are a balance between positive effects from placebo and negative effects from the phero smell. Minimalist manifesto brings the positive balance in your favor. =).

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2002, 04:01 AM
Marz, thank you.

Truth, interesting post.

Do you expect a lot of us phero users to be/get in that worst case scenario?

Personally I don´t think we have to worry about this scenario to much because the effects of mones are too obvious. images/icons/smile.gif

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Franki ]

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2002, 04:29 AM
Jim:
It still sounds to me as if you judge the effectiveness of the pheros by whether or not they make the woman make the first move. If that\'s so, then you may be missing a lot of what the stuff can do, IMO. My short experience with them is that having them on improves interactions by a few degrees. A woman that might have liked you really likes you; one who would have been lukewarm pays closer attention. And it\'s not bullet-proof. If you make a faux pas wearing pheros, people will still be insulted. While I\'m certain that some people manage to get their pheros under the nose of someone who\'s primed to be very receptive, resulting in a classic phero story, most of the every day interactions that you talk about, most of the real life interactions are going to be with women who are moderately attracted to you and of average aggressiveness at a point in their cycles when they are only somewhat likely to be very receptive to the pheros. That\'s what the odds are on an average, everyday, real-life encounter.

So, if on *average*, let\'s say a woman\'s level of reaction (not her rating of you, but her likeliness of acting aggressively acttracted) to you is likely to be, say, 5, on a scale of 1 to 10. It takes a nine, say, to get her to be so enamored of you to make a move for fear of losing you (if she can get up the nerve to make the first move at all). The pheros will boost the response a notch or two (now we\'re up to 7), enough to make her stand and listen if you approach her, but not enough to make her pursue. You still have to work to get her to the 9 range. You just don\'t have to work as hard. It\'s not magic.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2002, 04:37 AM
I agree with Truth. I have had my share of DIHL\'s and whatever, but as I said before, I have never had a \'hit\'. What I mean is, I have had DIHL\'s before, and nothing tells me that the pheromones are changing anything. If I get a DIHL, how on earth would I know if it\'s because of the pheromones? So I have tried to take notes of reactions when wearing pheros and when not wearing, and I honestly can\'t contribute any reactions to the pheros. Perhaps part of the hits reported are due to the fact that we want the pheros to work and are more alert to what\'s going on.
About clubs, for example, if before using pheros you almost never got any girl to talk to you, and with pheromones, always get one, then that would be proof in my book. Unfortunately, I cna\'t report anything like that.
Finn

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2002, 11:14 AM
I wore a drop of my CK1, andro-1, SOE, Edge mix on my arm today. After a few hours, I smell primarily SOE, even though it\'s only a small part of the mix.

On clothing, the CK-1 scent lasts longer, and I can barely smell the SOE.

Interesting... Different components disperse at different rates -- especially noticable on skin.

I wonder if the pheros in andro-1 and Edge disperse faster than the pheros in SOE, or if it\'s just the scent components (CK-1 and SOE scents).

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2002, 03:15 PM
Marz and Franki :

In my post I said up that a \'hit\' means different things to different people. If YOU see your good luck in the club scene is directly related to your pheromone use, then by all means keep it up and may the hits continue images/icons/wink.gif I just think there are many other factors other than pheromones in the night club atmosphere in your favor as far as meeting your next girlfriend or one night stand.

It\'s alot easier to go out and get laid by looking for it in a bar or club that picking up a quart of milk in the grocery store ... don\'t you agree ? So TO ME a club isn\'t the true test of pheromones effectiveness.

------------------------------
Sympatible ;

I realize those \'red letter\' hits we read about are few and far between
(a.k.a\'s supermarket meeting and the guy in the bakery being PRIME examples of what I would call \'true hits\' ).

I agree with you that it\'s ones much less obvious that we need to keep out eyes open for. I interact with people all the time so have been especially conscious of little things, out of the ordinary, that might be
my first \'phero hit\'. As of today , about three months worth of trial amounts and combos, I have to honestly say as Finn and Truth, that I have seen NOTHING different. I\'m not going to exaggerate a \'Hell-o\', \'Thank You, or a waitress filling my water glass in the course of a day - the normal, eveyday things - as a result of pheros and report it here as such.

I don\'t state that pheromones don\'t work, but for some people there is a chance they won\'t , simple as that.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2002, 03:27 PM
Jim,

I believe Truth has reported SOME changed behaviour, which he relates to pheromones, if I´am right.

Personally I think people who have drunk and whose inhibitions are lowered give a more HONEST reaction to the mones. This means clubs should be the right environment to test pheromones. I admit this is a complete turn-around of your argumentation. images/icons/wink.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2002, 03:37 PM
I\'ve tentatively reported some isolated changes in behavior, but I\'ve never been convinced of differences observed over many weeks.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-11-2002, 08:34 PM
No single hit will ever convince me of the power of phero. However, reports of consistent improvements in female interactions with phero use is more convincing. In fact, if I ever find my magic potion, I\'d like to go off of it for a while just to make sure that it\'s not due to a change in my personality over time, etc.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-12-2002, 12:25 AM
So, how has others been doing with the Minimalist Minifesto. Interactions have definitely been more positive this week. One thing I notice about low dosing is that I\'m a lot less self-conscious about how I smell. I guess I never was comfortable smelling like cologne with an unknown stink factor. =P.

**DONOTDELETE**
04-12-2002, 05:28 AM
I tried a minimalist approach yesterday when going out with an old friend. Had a few chats with a couple of nice ladies, but nothing to report. For all I know the bottles I have received might as well contain placebo. Maybe this is all a setup, Bruce sends every other guy scented water and collects the responses to find out wether or not the stuff works...
:-)
Finn

**DONOTDELETE**
04-12-2002, 09:13 AM
Ha! Yes, Bruce would be in the position to conduct a very good (but unethical) study!

**DONOTDELETE**
04-13-2002, 01:53 PM
There was two studies on human sweat, one from axillary region (high -none and andro-1) and one from apocrine glands (high andro-1 and -nol). That\'s how I got my 2:1:1 ratio. I didn\'t hear anything about -rone and would eliminate it from my mix if I could. I don\'t have the chem kit though.

a.k.a., I do seem to be striking up better conversations with girls all this week with smaller doses, but I can\'t tell if it\'s just the reverse baseline effect. Before I stunk and/or feared I stunk. I\'m not confident now that at least pheros aren\'t hurting my chances!

Your two drops of PI on a towel in the trash can is interesting. It\'s still consistent with your minimalist philosophy, since two drops on a cold towel would release slower than two drops on skin or warm clothing. Hmm... What can I do to have a little fun with objects? =).

a.k.a.
04-13-2002, 10:09 PM
truth,
Interesting approach (trying to mimic human sweat). I’d like to try that myself, but where did you get those concentrations? When I checked the post “Concentration of pheromones...” -none and andro 1 seem to appear in similar ratios; and I didn’t read (or am too ignorant to notice) anything about -nol or -rone.

Bass Man,
Thanks for testing out my formula and, yes, that’s exactly the quality of hits that I believe we need if we want to score on a consistent basis.

truth & Finn,
OK, I’m sure minimalism isn’t THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION for guys that aren’t seeing results. I just believe it’s the most effective approach.

I also can’t understand why pheromones shouldn’t work for everybody. A couple of years ago I noticed unmistakable changes in women’s behavior just by pouring two drops of PI on a towel, in the trashcan, in the lounge at work. (No, women didn’t start humping the trashcan, but they did tend to congregate in that area, they were more energized, and within minutes the topic of discussion was sex.) So if it works for paper why shouldn’t it work for humans?

I’m no scientist, but logic would dictate that the problem is not the ABSENCE of a missing variable (looks, money, charisma, pheromone X) but the PRESENCE of a countervailing variable. (Overdosing seemed like the likeliest candidate, but maybe there are other countervailing variables.) Does that make sense?