oil VS alcohol

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You know, I was thinking and that\'s always dangerous! My Adro 4.2 smells terrible. My Primal does not smell nearly as bad. Not even close. I wonder. If I where to have mixed my -dienone with oil instead of ethanol maybe the smell wouldn\'t have been so bad. Is is just because the ethanol is releasing the chemical so much faster into the air? Thunder.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Gents,

This will have to be quick. Just back from hols, and disaster, the \"net\" connects playing up...curse the demon Gates..

Oil vs Ethanol

I have tried NPA in oil based scent rather than ethanol based colognes. I found that the oil (base oil mixed with a few drops of sandlewood essential oil) could absorb an amazing amount without the pong becoming as noticable as it would with cologne. The oil seemed to suck up the smell. Unfortunately I think it slowed the release too much. It seems a nice idea but I managed to get 18 drops of npa into a ml of oil and could smell nothing except the sandlewood scent. I never found any success with this though, at least not for -none. It may be good for -nol as this seems to disperse with an amazing rapidity. Still, I read somewhere that ethanol is damaging to pheros as well, so suck it and see. It just seems to take too much phero to be economical.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, this is related to the release rate issue that I\'ve pondered so much about with no real solution. The release rate is slower for oil than ethanol, and slower on clothing than skin. That\'s why some say oil-based is better on skin and ethanol-based is better on clothing. Then there\'s the heat variable...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I honestly think there are too many varibles to nail this one to the floor. Ethanol (EtOH) doesn\'t damage pheros, it is really inert unless you have a reall electrophile around. The pheros are pretty non polar, so they won\'t play with the ethanol in this manner.

As far as release rate, I still put more money on the temp thing. Your sikn is very oily. In general it is warmer too. The pheros have to get to the vapor phase (air) and temp is the driving force behind this. How much of the pheros will go into the oil? I dunno, you can probably concentrate a lot into the oil. But, you want a controlled release from the skin into the air around you. This is where it gets complex enough I don\'t bother thinking too much about it.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

[Teak]

To add to the debate, here are some quotes I found:
http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub2.htm (\"http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub2.htm\")
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>
The solvent ethanol, till now the most widely used, seems to reduce the effects of androstenone, although the use of this solution has produced as good as no effects except when androstenone is dissolved in odourless vaseline oil.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub5.html (\"http://wwwpsy.uni-muenster.de/inst2/maiworm/pub5.html\")
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>
In all studies concerned with the effects of androstenone, ethanol was used as the solvent. In experiment 2 it may be clearly seen that men are more harshly perceived when androstenone is used in conjunction with ethanol. This negative response to androstenone may result from the type of solution chosen. Odours in combination with one another smell very different than when experienced alone (Laing 1991). The unique smell of ethanol immediately after application could be responsible for the negative values found in conjunction with androstenone. These results call into question the use of ethanol as a solvent and probably the use of other odours as well in these sorts of tests.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Whitehall]

The Maiworm studies are mis-applied here. For our commercial applications, the ethanol is just the carrier to get the mones onto and into the skin. The ethanol evaporates quickly leaving only the mones to diffuse. For our targets, they only get the mones.

These studies gave the subject a vapor mixture of ethanol + mones so that the subject smelled both at the same time. Therefore they measured a simultaneous reaction to ethanol AND mones. This is not usually the case with field applications unless you get your target to sniff the bottle.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

gents

I find pheros mixed with ethanol much harder to control. They seem to give a sudden surge that can lead to OD, followed by a desire to \"refresh\". I am also worried about the amount that gets absorbed into the skin. In contrast, I find that more are needed in oil, but the dispertion seems slower and more constant, also, even though I end up applying more with oil, I find the effect better, and longer lasting. The main problem I have with oil is that I can\'t smell the phero\'s ( or at least the -none) at all, in contrast to the ethanol mixes which \"stink\". This makes it harder to judge the amounts, since you get the impulse to add more to get a good \"scent\" going. I do not feel either of these carriers are ideal, oil hangs on to much and ethanol lets go too quick. maybe, something between can be found.

cheers

Ps...A lot of these \"studies\" are too \"clinical\". You can\'t study \"human social responses\" by spraying pictures, or chairs, or even asking for judgements on pictures of the opposite sex...it misses the point as pheros are not supposed to enhance ones appreciation of inanimate objects(other chemicals exist for this purpose).

bye.... ;~}

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Wouldn\'t the ethanol evaporate anyway?

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Well, there\'s ethanol on clothing. I don\'t know how it compares to oil, but variability in body heat is a factor. For instance, I go dancing a lot in the evenings. Currently, I\'m giving my shirt one spray the evening before after I shower. The scent is subtle throughout the following morning and afternoon, but when I work up a sweat dancing, the scent even 24 hours later is strong!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t find application to clothing to be very effective. I don\'t think the phero\'s are very volatile, and in the absence of a carrier they just don\'t seem effective. Hence the dispertion problem when dancing or exercising, what seems a reasonable dose can become very overpowering when you work up a sweat. Increasing the body temp can make all the difference, for good or bad...down to judgement really..I still think oil on body is better than ethanol on body. Am investigating other carriers, but as the majority of pheros come in ethanol, choice when mixing can be a bitch, just watch your mix cloud and weep..;~{

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I agree with you that if you dose on clothing for effectiveness during dancing, you may not find any effectiveness during the day when the dispersion is lower. I would think that temperature of skin should not be as dramatic during exercise, but I can\'t be sure.

I thought someone said that pheros in ethanol shouldn\'t disperse any slower, since it\'s the ethanol that evaporates, leaving the pheros. Ratspeaker, are you sure that the pheros really are gone? You mentioned that you can\'t smell -none. Are you judging by smell or effect?

Oil mixes might disperse slower because simply they tend to get spread out over a smaller area being more viscous than ethanol mixes. In that case, applying an equivalent dose using a more concentrated ethanol mix could do the trick.

I still hope for a more consistent dispersal medium someday.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ratspeaker, so what oil products are you referring to? PI? I had though AE and SOE were oils, but others say not. They seem kind of viscous to me. Maybe, it\'s the viscosity and area you spread the solution over that\'s important.

[Whitehall]

I think that the condition of your skin has something to do with dispersal rates. Apply EtOH-based \'mone\'s on very dry skin, and the release rate will be fairly high since the \'mones will penetrate the dry layer of dead skin. Apply EtOH-based \'mones to oily skin or skin that has been washed with something like Dove or other \"moisturizer\" and the \'\'mones will be bound to the oils in your skin and will be released slower, more like an oil-base. I bet that the natural skin oils have some affinity for pheromones.

An oil base may penetrate or may stay on the surface, depending on the oil content of the underlying skin and the oil carrier. I understand that SOE has a glycerol base which is an oily alcohol.

I think the easiest and most straightforward application would be clean and dry skin and EtOH carrier. But then, my skin is not too oily and not too dry - you know, \"just right\" Goldilocks skin.

I bet I could slow down my release rate by using moisturizer beforehand.

Likewise, mix your androstedienone with a moisturizing lotion and I bet the release rate will go way down compared to EtOH.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I just got an dropper bottle today. I put one drop of my diluted cologne-phero mix on my arms and rubbed them together. The drop (~0.03 ml) smelled at least as strong as one huge spray of the same mix on my shirt (~0.15 ml). With differences this great due to the medium and other factors, any dosing advice should be taken with a grain of salt. =).

If I take the minimalist approach to the extreme, I can just wear one drop of the diluted mix on my arm for about 0.003 mg phero.

By the way, how do you guys manage to wear a full spray (or more) of cologne mix on skin?! The scent of the cologne is too intense for me. One drop of cologne is just about right.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I wore a drop of my CK1, andro-1, SOE, Edge mix on my arm today. After a few hours, I smell primarily SOE, even though it\'s only a small part of the mix.

On clothing, the CK-1 scent lasts longer, and I can barely smell the SOE.

Interesting... Different components disperse at different rates -- especially noticable on skin.

I wonder if the pheros in andro-1 and Edge disperse faster than the pheros in SOE, or if it\'s just the scent components (CK-1 and SOE scents).

[camusflage]

truth:
Different components dispersing at differing rates shouldn\'t be terribly surprising. This is the very basis upon which a GOOD cologne/perfume is built. In fact, IIRC, Chanel\'s Allure is one example of that, crafted such that it\'s like the facets of a cut stone, changing texture through the drydown as notes come and go.

re: andro1 and TE (EtOH carrier) vs SoE (EtOH and glycerine, IIRC), there may be a SLIGHT difference, owing to the glycerine. What you\'re smelling is definitely the scent component though. CK1 is a light citrus with floral and slight musk notes. SoE is a far heavier musk. Musk, among other notes in a scent, is one of the longest lasting. If you had a pure musk with no pheros, and a light musk with heavy pheros, assuming same carrier, the heavier one will win out every time.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So the pheros last even longer than the musk, right?

Well, given that the SOE lasted just as long when diluted down in approximately 20:1 ethanol, perhaps concentration or carrier solvent don\'t make much of a difference in phero release rate. The light stuff disperses quickly, and the heavy stuff disperses slowly no matter what they\'re mixed in... Slower release rate on clothing may just be due to cooler temperature.

Perhaps, pheros in ethanol on skin really does last all day long, but most of us just can\'t smell it well enough to tell. a.k.a., the minimalist, certainly thinks so and has advised us not to refresh. He uses, ethanol products as far as I know.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Funny, I don\'t smell the SOE as strongly today after one drop in same location. Maybe, I didn\'t shake up the bottle last time before taking the drop (?). Does SOE stay in solution, for those of you who\'ve mixed it?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I found SOE _way_ too strong. I have a empty PF bottle with SOE diluted to 20% with Everclear, and it stays in solution fine for me.