Any suggestions on mixing Andro1?

[jose]

Anybody have any ideas about mixing Andro1? How much .ml of each, I would appreciate any suggestions. images/icons/laugh.gif

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce ]

[oscar]

jose,

My game plan is to let my nose decide.
As guidelines, on one hand we have the incredibly lightweight concentration of \"that cologne\", and on the other, Scientist\'s recommendation of using .1mL per dose, which is .1mg of stuff/dose, or about 5 times the optimal dose for A-None.

I\'m going to make TINY experimental batches of Aqua di Gio/stuff, like 5 drops AdG to 1 drop stuff, and adjust as needed. 10 drops of AdG might be more like it since the stuff is 1mg/mL.

If this stuff smells like A-None, as Thunder reported in his experiment thread, I\'m a little apprehensive about putting on two drops, which is a conservative translation of .1mL per application.

I\'ll definitely choose to err on the chickenshit side at first, but will eventually push the limits toward OD before too long. images/icons/crazy.gif

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

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I can report that the stuff smells a tiny bit like a-none. Emphasize tiny. The scent is incredibly weak. Masking this stuff will be a peice of cake even in high doses. I spread a drop on the back of my hand and can barely smell it.

[jose]

Thanks Oscar, I\'ll get mine next week. I think I\'ll try it raw for now, lets hope my experiments succeed. images/icons/smile.gif

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The stuff smells weak, Scientist? Oh oh... This worries me. According to everything I read and Thunder\'s report, it\'s suppose to smell like and be just oderous as -none. I hope Phil Stone got the first batch right, or we may all have failed experiments. =P.

Ilurbu, did you batch made by ThinkerChem smell strong?

[oscar]

Gents,

AMAZING! Two days from Colorado to Philly! First class mail, $1.26 postage.
The postal gods have smiled upon me today! images/icons/laugh.gif

I put one drop in the palm of my hand and I\'ll agree that it\'s not as stinky as I had expected. But I still plan to proceed cautiously.
I\'ll cite Absinthe 120 proof as an example here. Straight from the bottle the aroma is not as intense as it becomes after it\'s mixed with water. Once diluted it releases its full bouquet. Until I find out otherwise, I\'m going to assume that this stuff might just do the same when mixed with cologne.

The smell is really familiar, just can\'t place it yet. It\'s like A-None, but a bit less BO-like. There\'s a shade of Rone\'s scent in there too, I think. I like it!

Thanks Bruce! images/icons/wink.gif

Back to the lab!
Oscar images/icons/cool.gif

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Those of you who are making scent comparisons with -none, are you comparing it to the -none in the chem kit also from Stone Labs? I heard the Stone Labs product don\'t smell as bad at the same concentrations as LaCroy and others.

[oscar]

truth,

I\'d say that stink-wise it compares favorably to the kit A-None from Stone.
Maybe 1/2 to 2/3 as smelly.

It\'s WAY LESS stinky than NPA or PI, like 1/5 as pungent.

All of Stone\'s stuff smells better than other manufacturer\'s products. I wouldn\'t worry about this.

I need to mix some with some Aqua di Gio or Issey to get a more definitive comparison though.

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[Bruce]

I feel certain we can trust both Stone and LaCroy to be right on target with the concentrations/promised mg per bottle. A while back there was some discussion about how much of this BO smell might actually be attributable to the reagent chemicals used to catalyze the production of the pheromones. These chemicals are refinded out of the final product to a great extent but it is technically posible that a \"cleaner\" product would not smell as much as its less refined cousin containing an identical amount of a particular pheromone. So that is conceivably an issue, BUT keep in mind that Stone Labs does not manufacture the pheromones in Andro1. They are purchased by the gram diluted and divided up between the right number of bottles to create the promised # of mg per bottle based on the dry wt of the original sample. At least that is the impression I got. I know they don\'t make that. It is not all that easy cranking these chemicals out. LaCroy is a major chemical/pharmaceutical manufacturer, and they are off in S. Africa. I always figured they make what they use in the products.
Cheers,
Bruce

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I agree with Bruce. We all are pretty aware of how similar these molecules are to each other, yet some have a heck of a lot more smell than others. So, the precursors will probably also smell. Stone labs is interested in giving us the pure chemicals, and will charge us for the best level of purity they can get. But other products, ones that do not always give out the ingredients, can go for the lowest priced source (or purity if they produce the mones themselves) I know that nothing is pure, it is a relative thing. But, if the Stone products are \"more\" pure than other ones we play with, the odor might be less. Makes sense to me in a whacked out chemist way. images/icons/smile.gif

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OK, Oscar, I\'m glad to hear that the andro-1 doesn\'t smell much weaker than the chem kit -none. Everybody is the happy with the potency of the chem kit -none, right?

So, the -none in NPA and PI are twice as stinky as the chem kit -none (?). In that case, have people been able to mix the chem kit -none at a lower cologne to phero ratio?

Well, I didn\'t get my andro-1 in the mail today. :-(. Hope some of you test it out tonight and give us a preview!

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I bought my product from steroliods and mixed it with 95% ethanol. Maybe the different manufacturers are the reason for the smell difference. My is at least 2/3 as pungent as -none and it\'s dilluted twice as much as the product from stone. I have not recieved my Stone product yet but when I do I guess I can make the same mixture and compare. My chem\'s were dirty. huh?
Oh yeah. It did produce much more odor when mixed as opposed to just raw form. Thunder

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

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Well, Thunder, you will be the gold standard to check the potency of our andro-1 from Stone. I hope the girls keep licking you when you use the Stone products. =)

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Oscar, I noticed the same thing about the new stuff\'s smell. I actually kind of like it, and it\'s familiar but hard to place... I think it vaguely smells like an attractive woman\'s skin, but maybe that\'s my wishful thinking.

[jose]

bump

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I do not think that you can mess up the isomers. There are two double bonds, and one keto group. In all cases, those are not stereo specific sites. You need 4 different things attached to a carbon to make it stereo specific (or chiral.)

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Hmm... No positive experiences reported with andro-1 yet. I guess we\'ll have more of a verdict by next week.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Gents,

there are two mirror images of this molecule if I remember correctly labeled + and -

I have not seen companies selling this stating if it is a + or - form or a mixture. \"enantiomers\" i believe is the correct term. As I understand it it is more trouble to create a single \"optical isomer\" or \"enantiomer\" or whatever the current term is, than the mix of the two. It could depend on the source of the raw product as to its precise content. This of course applies to all pheros, but could explain why stone labs products are less stinky than lacroys. Maybe lacroy are ensuring they only use one enantiomer or blah blah..

I hate the way scientists use copious \"gobbledegook\".

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK, I suppose that you could try for a mirror image (yes an enantiomer) but, I am willing to bet this is not the case. With the alcohol forms of the pheros, there is the option for the other chiral options to happen, and you end up with a \"d or l\" form (e or z in chem) or all of the other fun little distinctions. Oddly enough in the case of the groovie new chem, or andro1, that isn\'t possible. To get the mirror image of a 4 membered ring structure is a bit tougher.

And quite honestly, all of the \"gobbledegook,\" or what ever you refered to it as, is helpful to those who know what it means.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

gents

Just a thought, are they producing the correct isomer or a mix of the two isomers?

ie: do they realise that only one isomer is bio active a stinks the other I will think you will find has no odour and as is common with all biochems is inactive. Just a thought...

I think have have the correct terms, chem is not my subject and its a long time since I studied it..

[**DONOTDELETE**]

well chinese is useful to chinese people but I wouldn\'t want to learn it! ;~}

I got onto this track \'cos I came across a site with the molecule in question shown in two mirror image forms. It was a site concerned with olfaction and it stated that one form had a strong smell and the other didn\'t. I will attempt to locate it again.

ps The only word I need in any language is the one that describes beer... ;~}}

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here it is...
www.leffingwell.com/chirality/androstadienone.htm (\"http://www.leffingwell.com/chirality/androstadienone.htm\")

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At the bottom of the page for androstenone (\"http://www.leffingwell.com/chirality/androstenone.htm\") it comments on enantiomeres. Maybe you have something there ratspeaker.

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Well, the site is nice, I don\'t have chime (The things I am too impatient to install) and it showns the nice molecular structures. But, physiologically, the one on the right hand side (the one that smells) is the one that is important. Since the body starts with cholesterol, and goes through a mountain of steps to make the compounds, the one that corresponds to cholesterol is the only one the bod can make. I am pretty sure that the other one would only break down chemically, not biochemically.

Yeah, beer is the first word I generally learn. Most often followed by bathroom...

[oscar]

Okay,

I finally got around to doing some mixing with A1. I sprayed Aqua di Gio into a wide-mouthed bottle 50 times. This usually yields 3 drops per spray, but when I eye-droppered it out it came to 171 drops.
Figuring I wanted a 5:1 ratio, I proceeded to add 34 drops of A1 with a matched eyedropper. The resulting mix was so NON-phero smelling that I decided to kick it all the way up to 3:1!

After adding a total of 57 drops of A1, the mix started to smell phero-like, but still not as intense as AdG/NPA at 5:1! And this stuff\'s twice as concentrated. It might bloom after steeping a bit. I\'ll keep my nostrils peeled. (OUCH!)

Tonight\'s the road-test. Karaoke, Yuengling Lager, AdG, and A1.
Hopefully a recipe for success.
Definitely a recipe for FUN! images/icons/laugh.gif

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

P.S. The 228 drops only came a little bit more than half-way up the 10mL atomizer bottle. So much for the 20 drops/mL guideline when it comes to ethanol based stuff when using eyedroppers. I\'m guessing that I\'m looking at @40-45 drops/mL here.
Your mileage may vary. Adjust accordingly.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Woo... 3:1 using a 1mg/ml concentrate?! I guess I\'d mix it at a higher ratio just so that I can dose more accurately using an atomizer! One spray of a 3:1 mix will give you more than 0.02 mg.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well
After consideration, it would seem that we are back to the idea that different phero manufacturers could be unconcerned as to which enantiomer they are supplying. Both possess the same generic name. It should be noted however that A1 is considered less stinky than -none. It does however throw a new complexity to the situation, in that we do not know what grade of chemical is being used in the products we purchase. I was always much happier refering to these as the L & D forms.

ps after enough beer the word for bathroom is unimportant...hic

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\"It should be noted however that A1 is considered less stinky than -none.\"

I actually haven\'t seen this stated in the literature though.

[oscar]

truth,

Granted, 3:1 does sound a bit heavy-handed. I decided to reverse my proposed strategy of starting out conservatively and building toward OD level. I want to see results, even if they\'re negative, just to gauge the effectiveness of this stuff. I figure I can dilute it as necessary once a reaction has been seen.

I\'m pretty good at charting and applying scientific method. What I lack that some others have is the willingness to sacrifice for science. My results with my usual phero strategies are so gratifying that I can barely bring myself to leave out A-None or A-Nol etc. in order to test this stuff.
I suppose that we all have our shortcomings! images/icons/crazy.gif

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Interesting document with the two andro-1\'s, ratspeaker. Too bad I don\'t have the biochemistry background to understand what the difference between the two are. I guess Steraloids is sure to cell the biological active form, since it specializes in steroids. I don\'t know where Stone Labs purchased their andro-1 from. I heard they don\'t make it themselves.

By the way, Steraloids was the source of the andro-1 used in a recent study yielding positive results and also the source of Thunder who had girls licking him. =).

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Truth

I believe if you look at the documents on yon site it gives the levels at which the chems are detectable in ppb. This if I correctly understand it, suggests that -none is detectable at lower concentrations than A1. Therefore it stinks more..

Jolly interesting stuff, enough to curdle the brain, or maybe that s the beer and the fact that its one in the morning here. I,m off...snore

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK, truth finally has his andro-1! =).

I just mixed 10 ml of CK1 with 1 ml of andro-1. This should be equivalent to a 5:1 mix with NPA. 2 sprays should give a dosage of about 0.02 mg.

I can\'t comment on the scent of andro-1, since I can\'t smell NPA or andro-1 well, especially out of a bottle. The alcohol masks the smell completely to me.

By the way, I like the cool-looking chem hit bottle that the andro-1 came in with the eye drop top. However, the eye dropper would be even more perfect if it had lines indicating 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8, 1.0 ml. The dropper filled to the top looks to be about 1 ml, but I\'m not sure. Anyway, the lines would make mixing hella easy!