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View Full Version : solvents for diluting oils, colognes, ethanol, etc:



Nutt
03-16-2002, 05:17 AM
So what do you people with chem kits use to make your brews? images/icons/wink.gif

I see the chem kit comes with 50% ethanol (50% of what? is that some sort of proof mark?) which sounds a good solvent to start with. a search of the net suggests as pure an ethanol as you can find for your base, so ill probably try and scrounge up some high purity ethanol as a base.

What exactly is the function of Dipropylene Glycol ? A search shows it apparently easily passes into the skin and to the blood, is the idea to drag the oils deeper into the skin for a greater delay of release? Its is also meant to help the essential oils mix.

Fixatives such as Phtalates or glycerine are also suggested to prevent evaporation of the solution. not sure how much would be needed, but I would imagine that a small amount could keep your mixture stable for longer and possibly give a delay factor of the product while sprayed on the skin.

Wow. This cologne making business is more complicated than I first imagined, any good sites for me and other chem kit newbie’s?

Here’s some links I found in my travels
Perfumes (\"http://world.std.com/~krahe/perfumes.html\")

PaganPath (\"http://www.paganpath.com/shop/1fixedoils.html\") Sells essential oils, has glycerine, Dipropylene Glycol, Pretty sure they dont have much to compete with bruces product, but feel fre to delete this one if they do bruce images/icons/laugh.gif

Bruce
03-16-2002, 03:46 PM
No problemo. Interesting sites. I bookmarked the oil page myself.
Thanks,
Bruce

oscar
03-16-2002, 04:31 PM
Nutz,

Nice links!
Everclear or Pharmco brands grain alcohol are great bases for unscented sprays. I have Everclear, which is 95% alcohol (190 proof).

For \"oil-based\" concoctions, instead of di-propylene glycol, I use vegetable glycerine. You can cut it with Everclear to get a consistancy like AE, or use it straight, for a really thick, viscous lotion-like product.

Distilled water also comes in handy. It\'s likely that it\'s the other 50% of the kit\'s ethanol mix.

There\'s loads of stuff on an old thread of mine called \"Chemistry Set Recipes\" with links to fragrance making etc. It\'s currently on page 20 of this board, last posted on 1/14/02.
I\'m thinking that with the upcoming -dienone surge, there\'s going to be a lot of folks breaking out the old kit stuff, dusting it off, and turning \"MAD SCIENTIST\" again!
I\'m one of them! images/icons/crazy.gif

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
03-16-2002, 08:18 PM
50% ethanol is cut with water, otherwise it would have to be labeled. Dipropylene glycol is a larger molecule than glycerine, so presumably it does not fly away as easily. But everything mentioned is an alcohol of some kind. To truely make an oil based mix, you would need vegetable oil, or canola or something of that nature. The larger the molecule, the more hydrophobic it tends to be. The pheros like hydrophobic solvents. The chem kits are saturated at 1mg/mL, pretty small amount. For our purposes, it doesn\'t really matter, we\'d OD real quick if it were more concentrated.

Tantalus747
03-16-2002, 10:34 PM
Where do you get vegetable glycerine? Does that mix with the pheros from the chem set? (And -dienone?)

Is rubbing alcohol an alternative to ethanol? How small a container does everclear come in? What I\'m getting at is that I\'ll probably buy -dienone & I\'d rather not have lots of grain alcohol around the house. (I won\'t go into why, that would be way off topic.)

[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tantalus747 ]

**DONOTDELETE**
03-17-2002, 12:19 PM
heh, MY advice? I could recommend a computer solution, but I am far from skilled in chemicals images/icons/wink.gif However, my best guess is that an alcohol would be best for clothing, since it probably won\'t stain like an oil-based suspension... the latter I think is best for skin, to better resist the normal breakdown over time... again, just my opinion images/icons/tongue.gif

oscar
03-17-2002, 12:57 PM
Gents,

You may be getting the wrong impression of what vegetable glycerine is like from Walters chemically accurate description of it as an \"alcohol\".
It\'s seriously thick, viscous stuff, kind of like the consistency of Karo corn syrup or even hair gel. You have to cut it with at least an equal amount or more, of water or ethanol just to get it to the consistancy of AE. You\'re really NOT going to want to put this particular alcohol on your clothes. images/icons/shocked.gif

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
03-17-2002, 01:20 PM
Actually, I was going to mention one other thing about glycerin (or glycerol for bio folks) It is a major ingredient in soft serve ice cream (about 30%) so I wouldn\'t worry about it being toxic. As far as an oil, technically it is one out of four of the molecules required to make an oil. But, no lipid person worth their omega 3\'s would call it an oil.

As far as application, I tend to like ethanol. It is reasonable as a solvent (went over that earlier) and easy to spray. Even after it has been kept in the freezer (bad attempt at a joke.) As far as the pheros lasting longer or better systems for delivery, I really have to stress, the pheros will fly away as a function of their vapor pressure, and the temp of their environment. I am positive it is in yer general chem book, right near PV = nRT. What delivers the pheros will most likely have a much lower vapor pressure and be gone quicker than the pheros. My guess is that your clothes are not as warm as your skin, and this determines the release rate.

**DONOTDELETE**
03-17-2002, 01:23 PM
Oh yeah, that last post was a generalization for something that is in reality a horribily complex problem. But, I have to take the Occums Razor (How do you spell that?) approach.

Tantalus747
03-17-2002, 09:57 PM
Walter, why is it then that fragrances made with higher percentages of oil last longer?

camusflage
03-17-2002, 10:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>Walter, why is it then that fragrances made with higher percentages of oil last longer?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I\'ll posit that both thoughts are wrong. PV=nRT is the ideal gas law. It applies only to gasses (and only closely, but y\'all REALLY don\'t want to get into PChem, do you? images/icons/smile.gif ). The rate at which something evaporates is controlled primarily by its boiling point (a function of pressure, temperature, heat applied, purity, and other factors). Still though, the alcohol in a fragrance is simply a carrier. It also is responsible for the high notes of a fragrance. They go away so quickly because they disapper with the alcohol.

As for fragrances with a higher percentage of oil lasting longer, it\'s ESSENTIAL OILS that it refers to. Parfum &gt; eau de parfum &gt; eau de toilette &gt; eau de cologne. 3% essential oil in 97% other oil (your basic lotion) will NOT last longer than 12% essential oil in 88% EtOH (your basic EDP). While how a scent lasts on different people is a function of their own unique chemistry, a lot of it has to do with the ingredients of the essential oils. Given the same skin, it\'s a function of the concentration. That\'s why you can, for instance, pour on all the aftershave you like and have it gone in four hours while a few dabs of an EDP will last all day.

Tantalus747
03-17-2002, 11:11 PM
So Camusflage does that mean that whether we use ethanol, glycerine, or an oil as a carrier the scent will stay on for the same length of time? I would have thought oils would last longer, but I know science is often counter-intuitive.

If you don\'t mind explaining, how is an essential oil different than a normal carrier oil?

oscar
03-17-2002, 11:44 PM
Tantalus,

I get vegetable glycerine at my local health food store. As Walter said, it IS actually an alcohol, not an oil; a \"poly-ol\" if I correctly remember the last time he mentioned this. It does mix well with the chem set stuff and ethanol. And it\'s SO non-toxic that it\'s actually edible! It\'s clear and un-scented, but it has a slightly sweet taste. I\'ve used it to make an unscented AE.

Steer clear of rubbing alcohol. It\'s got stinky stuff in it that you don\'t want competing with your fragrance.
In Pennsylvania, all drinkable alcohol is strictly controlled by a state monopoly retail system. Elsewhere, you may be able to get a small bottle at a pharmacy, I\'m not sure. I bought a 750ml bottle at a liquor store in Delaware for about $13. It might be available in smaller quantities, like 375ml, but again, I\'m not sure.

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

Watcher
03-17-2002, 11:47 PM
We need technologists and jambats advice although i seems to think that the glycol works best as far as long lasting thats why the oil based products are good for skin and alcohol for clothes (cotton and wool being natural fibres get a far better response))

camusflage
03-18-2002, 12:26 AM
It\'s not really what lasts longer so much as what\'s soluble in what. Glycerine will form a solution with water-soluble materials, being a water soluble glycol. Oil will dissolve fat-soluble materials. In fact, it is the fat-soluble/water-soluble thing which forms the basis of soap. Without getting into the gory details, basically, a soap molecule consists of a fatty acid at one end and a water-soluble hydroxy at the other. The fatty acid end dissolves in the fat you want to wash away. Throw enough of the molecules at it, and you have enough water-soluble bits to form an emulsion, and wash it away.

Back to the chemistry at hand, however, we\'ve left the organics alone, in the alcohol-soluble. Typically, these are going to be aromatics, though near anything is soluble to some degree in alcohol, given that it has some organic characteristics and some non-organic characteristics, since it\'s well nigh impossible to come up with pure EtOH.

To make a long answer short, tailor your carrier to what you\'re looking to deliver and what you want to happen following delivery. THF is a great organic solvent, but won\'t dissolve common table salt for anything. Alcohol will dissolve nearly anything, but when evaporating, will take some of it away with it. Oil will dissolve fatty substances, but nothing that is polar (ie, forms an ion in water, such as NaCl, or table salt) in appreciable quantity. Alcohol will be absorbed into the skin while oil will mostly sit on the surface. Oils will last slightly longer, but at the cost of reduced emission rate by not being absorbed as readily, which would stand to reason. Whether you\'re driving 20 mpg at 30 mph or 30 mpg at 20 mph, if you have a 15 gallon tank, you will need to refill. It\'s just a matter of how far you get and how long it will be until you need to. Also to consider on oil is that it won\'t evaporate. At all. When alcohol evaporates away leaving the formerly dissolved material behind, it then falls to the natural sweat to carry the rest off. With oil, it will mostly sit there. Oil is good when you want more concentrated in a smaller radius while alcohol will release less concentrated across a greater radius, given that it leaves the material behind for sweat to carry off.

To answer your question about essential oils, what I mean is perfume oils, or the oils that hold the scents.

**DONOTDELETE**
03-18-2002, 01:44 AM
While I don\'t really want to start arguements, Camo, has it right. And please the PV = nRT, that was a suggestion of where to start looking in your general chem book. Please, I understand that nothing (AND I MEAN NOTHING) is ideal. One point that was overlooked is that your skin is full of oil. If you want to argue that point, wipe someones glasses over any part of your body that is in question. I am sure they will be annoyed with you (for good reason,) and then they will start to clean their glasses. The simple point remains, you can put the pheros on your body/clothes in whatever manner, but really, temperature is the primary factor for dispersion. And Camo, I am an organic chemist. I have a hard time puttin stock in a discipline that can\'t describe a hydrogen atom accurately images/icons/smile.gif Just Kiddin... Most of the time I am isolating things from tar, so whoami to speak. images/icons/wink.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
03-18-2002, 01:56 AM
Oh Tant, sorry for not responding to your question. Anything that smells is basically oil based. If you want to think about it, salts, no they are ionic (need to be plasma to be smelled) proteins, well they are always charged (OK that\'s a lie, but for 99%...) and behave like salts. The aromas are oil based, so basically, you get them in their most concentrated form as an oil. A lot of the time you\'ll see a steam distilled compound as the primary smell. A real world version of this is pepper spray. Capsacissan (SP?) is the hot stuff in chiles. It appears on the label as OC, or oleoresin capsacissan. Steam distilled chiles... While this does nothing for us on the phero board, it is an example of how things are done. Try to remember that aromas (oily compounds) are not that much different than pepper spray, odd as it may seem, it is true.

Irish
03-18-2002, 07:04 AM
Nutz - Everclear works great. 95% ethanol (190 proof) at the liquor store. About $5 a half-pint here in the great Southwest. This weekend we used the excess to mix some fine drinks too (careful - you can kill yourself drinking this stuff if you\'re stupid about it).

I also have some denatured alcohol from the hardware store that I use for cleanup, but not mixing. It is POISON so don\'t drink it. I don\'t even put it on my skin cause I\'m unsure of the poisoning agents they use to keep you from drinking it. But it\'s really cheap (about $3 a quart) so I use it to clean up the equipment. images/icons/smile.gif

Tantalus747
03-18-2002, 01:39 PM
Thanks Walter & Camus. images/icons/smile.gif Hard to believe I was once a Biology/Chemistry major.

What I\'m getting is that the solvent used isn\'t terribly important. This caught my eye though, \"Alcohol will dissolve nearly anything, but when evaporating, will take some of it away with it.\" Are we talking trivial amounts here, or amounts that would make a \'real world\' difference to us phero users?

**DONOTDELETE**
03-18-2002, 02:01 PM
Irish, if the denatured alcohol is methanol, keep it off your skin. It will kill you if ingested. Your body makes it into fomaldehyde, the stuff they use to preserve dead animals and show them to you in highschool. Smelly stuff. Oh yeah, methanol can go through your skin, wear gloves.

Tant, as far as taking the pheros away when the EtOH evaporates, it is possible for there to be an azeotrope. I don\'t think it will matter, the bigger concern I have with atomizer is, well, missing. If you ever watch when you spray, a reasonable portion doesn\'t hit you. I am willing to bet that more pheros would be lost because of this than to the evaporating EtOH.

camusflage
03-18-2002, 03:47 PM
Walter: Heh. I figured you were a chemist of one form or another. Me, I\'m just a web developer who thought that chemical engineering, and not computers, was his future, who did three years of ChemE ten years ago. The closest I come to chemistry these days is cooking, and I don\'t even do that terribly often. Indeed you are correct about oil seeping into the skin, as I remembered this morning whilst applying my aftershave balm. If it wasn\'t for absorbtion, massage oils would last forever.

Tant: What I meant by \"take some of it away with it\" was that as the alcohol evaporates, some of the pheros come along for the ride. Only some, as the pheros are NOT as want to go wafting off as say citrus oil or an aldehyde. Still though, the mere evaporative process will cary some away. Now, it doesn\'t \"go away\", mind you. It simply dissipates in a bit of an initial burst, followed by a more \"slow burn\". Given that pheros won\'t simply evaporate on their own, this effect is really not enough to cause concern, I wouldn\'t think.

As far as spray not hitting the mark, yes, you will always lose *some*, but even when applying oil, if you take the prescribed route of dabbing on with your finger, you\'re losing a fair amount to your finger, where it will simply rub off, likely before it will be of any use. Six of one, half dozen of the other, to my mind. I prefer sprays for convenience, some prefer pours for the control.