Why I think Berliner isn't going for androstADIENone as pheromone

[drchaos]

From what I could tell he and colleagues have a new company that seems devoted to developing a therapeutic for depression for women.

It would be self-dosing dienone.

If it proves successful and approved by the FDA (this means very expensive rigorous studies) it would be immensely more profitable than trying to sell it as a recreational pheromone product with not easily provable results, and little distinguished in marketing from the competition.

Consider that Prozac, Celexa et al are multi BILLION dollar selling drugs, and that people are often quite averse to taking oral medications for years with questionable side effects. And the SSRI\'s can have questionable side effects.

A proven moderate mood-enhancer that is just ``smelled\'\' and applied topically could prove to be very important.

So as a biotech company that needs venture capital and deals with pharmaceutical companies, that\'s the way to go, not for stuff to help horndogs.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

gents,

I think you have to understand that guys behind \"pherin\" and \"Erox\" are academics. They are researching this from a medical viewpoint, and are hoping to create a new range of medicines by manipulating hormone levels via the VNO. WE on the otherhand are seen as being in the quack \"snake oil\" end of the market. It is not credible to be seen to support the use of \"medication\" as a \"sex aid\". You have to remember, the majority of sites \"punting Phero\'s\" are affiliated to adult sex toy sites. It really boils down to the great debate on the recreational use of chemicals ;=}

Pherin are not interested in getting \"directly\" involved in such overtly suspect experementation.

Commercial suicide from their point of view.

Oh, and Berliner et al, do consider -dienone etc to be phero\'s, just not \"sex phero\'s\". I agree, these are mood enhancers....

Rumour of course has it that \"pherin\" knows which is the phero controlling sexual behaviour in humans, but are keeping it quiet. What I have read tends to support this, they have discovered/invented more, but are not letting on.

Sounds like good business sense to me;=}

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: ratspeaker ]

[drchaos]

I agree with ratspeaker.

The reality is that getting grants and funding means you go with the mainstream.

If they are successful with the clinically proven use of pheros as mood enhancers it would be a major medical advance. The pheros would work nearly instantly whereas Prozac etc can take a couple of *weeks* to have any effect.

Also keep in mind that if androstadienone gets approved by the FDA as a medication for mood enhancement it will be completely illegal to just buy it from chemical suppliers without a prescription, and with an Rx it will be incredibly more expensive per mg than at current.

The real question though is patent issues, if -dienone\'s patents are running out Pherin corp would probably be interested in a new derivative of -dienone that works better and they can have full patent rights for a long time.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I wouldn\'t worry too much about the things getting restricted. With the volume of normal pharmaceutical manufacturing, it\'d be widely available. Maybe off scrip, bu widely available.

[Watcher]

Im sure there is enough money in the pheromone market when you consider that the smell based perfume and colonge and its other side deordorants are also a multi billion dollar industry so it would be worthwhile to make as much money as possible out of any new product.

[Nutt]

Makes sense to me, but the only way to find out for sure is experimentaly. -dienone is in the womans realm, which is ment to attract men, but is said to do so by enhansing the womans mood right?

I would assume that the phero works and both sexes however. should be intresting to see some results.

If your planning on buying some, see if you can detect a change in your mood too, as in a anti-depressent effect, although thats a hard thing to gauge, and no small part of phero effectivness IMHO.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Let\'s say that self application of androstadienone works to lift the mood of women, and estratetraenol the mood of men. If every starts applying the pheros of the opposite to gender to themselves, wouldn\'t this increase the prevalence of homosexuality according to James\'s theory on phero conditioning?!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What a weird suggestion? Conditioning in terms of olfaction would be the evocation of past feelings/memories associated with a particular scent. Your conditioned response would depend upon how you felt when you where exposed to the scent in the past. I don\'t see what this has to do with \"phero\'s\". A \"true\" phero would cause a response regardless of conditioning. Other species do not \"learn\" how to respond to phero\'s, the whole idea is one of instinct.

Erox, put the phero\'s apparently \"back to front\" for a number of reasons. Like they don\'t wish to get involved in sex attractants. They have correctly deduced that it is easier to affect the wearer rather than some \"dude/dudette a number of meters away. They wish to \"elevate the mood\" of the wearer rather than initiate gratuitous sexual interest. They have their eyes on greater things, the \"phero\" market is too small, and doesn\'t have enough credibility to be even slightly interesting.

And on and on. there are so many good reasons not to get involved.

But, to put it into the \"vernacular\", they don\'t wish to be branded \"snake oil sellers\"

But, back to the main \"jist\". Just how the hell do you \"condition\" someone to become a homosexual? I don\'t even think \"electrodes\" could accomplish that.

Have a happy day

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok, according to the visual/olfaction conditioning theory, gay men become attracted to the visual input of the male physique because they respond to male pheromones. Most men respond to female pheromones and are conditoned to the visual input of the female physique. However, if we put female pheromones on men, then heterosexual men may also react to the visual input of the male physique. In the extreme scenario, more men could be conditioned to be gay! Hmm... Don\'t wear Realm around your kids. =)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Huh? The female phero, estratetraenal is detected by the male VNO (at least, the heterosexual VNO). The female phero may elevate the mood of the male wearer, but it may also condition homosexual attraction in other males, inadvertently exposed to the male wearer with the female phero.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

yea

But the mens realm contains female phero\'s. Gay men are not attracted to females. So, they would sense the female pheros and be repelled rather than attracted.

Anyway, these are \"mood enhancing\" phero\'s not \"sex attractants\"...

I would actually think that gay men would be attracted more to -none. Since they are seeking the essence of masculinity. Anyway, gender identity is not a conditioned response. You don\'t turn homosexual.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

ps
i\'m off now - its 2 in the morning and my brain hurts....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ratspeaker, I\'m not worried about effect on gay men with the possibly defective VNO. I\'m worried about us normal guys who do respond to female pheros.

Any thoughts, James?