Very informative document!

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http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/courses/chemical_communication/shkafim05.pdf (\"http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/courses/chemical_communication/shkafim05.pdf\")

[oscar]

truth,

My CPU is terribly constipated and won\'t allow me to download shit. How about a synopsis?

Thanks.
Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[oscar]

Okay,

I got on another computer and checked this out. A synopsis won\'t be necessary, assuming that all there was to see were pictures, graphs, and some molecular models. I didn\'t see any text anywhere. Did I miss something?

I did find it QUITE interesting that there, among the compounds found in boar testes, was the much discussed Androstadienone, previously thought by most of us to be the exclusively HUMAN androgen.

Does this then lend creedence to the probable existence of Androstenone and Androstenol as bona-fide human pheromones as well?

Because if you were to take what I saw there as fact, Erox/Pherin would also have to disdainfully refer to their precious Androstadienone as a \"Pig Pheromone\", as they do Androstenone and Androstenol! images/icons/shocked.gif

Oink! images/icons/laugh.gif
Oscar

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Yeah, I have a hard time understanding some of the interesting tables and graphs without extra text.

[oscar]

truth,

Surely you, of all people, could not have missed the section where Androstadienone was listed as being a compound found in pig\'s balls. Nor could you have overlooked the earlier listing of pig pheromones where -dienone wasn\'t listed. Could it be, maybe, just MAYBE, that -dienone IS merely a precursor to Androstenone and Androstenol, the REAL human AND pig pheromones?! images/icons/laugh.gif

This WOULD blow the shit out of what Erox and others have been harping on all this time! images/icons/wink.gif

I\'m very curious. What do you make of this?

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

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Well, has anyone tested -dienone on pigs? I\'m particularly confused about a table about positive and negative response of pigs to back pressure in the presence of a plethory of androgen compounds. I noticed that -none and -nol were highlighted as the pig pheromones, but the responses from my interpretation was no better than the other androgens.

What\'s interesting to me is that even though -dienone is a precursor to the other androgens, it\'s concentration is on par with -none in human sweat. -dienone and -none are the two most prominent androgens in human sweat. No mention of -rone. Is it even in human sweat?

[oscar]

truth,

Well I\'m just guessing here, but if -dienone is being produced in boar testicles, I\'d have to assume that at the very least, pigs have tested -dienone, or its by-products on pigs. Can\'t imagine that the pigs are producing this for no reason, other than the fact(?) that it breaks down into None and Nol.

I might postulate that the reason that -dienone and a-none are the most prevalent androgens in human axillary sweat is that, it is in the disposal of -dienone by our apocrine glands that various metabolytes and bacteria act upon it creating None and Nol in varying proportions, but leaving a large percentage of the -dienone unprocessed to be expelled in it\'s original unadulterated form.
Thus -dienone is like crude oil, which is subsequently refined to become various other useful products, except a lot slips through unaffected. Suppose that each picogram of -dienone processed produces, say, .8 picograms of A-None and .2 pg of A-Nol (assuming for our purposes that these are the only by-products, for now). And at various levels of physical or brain activity, -dienone may be sent to the dumpsters (apocrine glands) at a rate that is impossible to fully process.
Enough hypothesizing, I\'m getting brain-lock.

Good point about the Rone. Maybe JVK is tuned in. This sounds like a question for him.

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

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Was I the only one to pick up on the fact that for many of the graphs the mones where INJECTED??????????

ouch

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I have no answers to your question Oscar. Regardless of how much -dienone is processed into the other androgens, all of them or one or more of them can act as pheromones. However, just the presence of -dienone in pig sweat raises the possibility that -dienone is a pig pheromone also.

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Does it matter to most posters here if -dienone is a pig pheromone?

I\'m not trying to shoot down what you\'re saying... I think it\'s valid, I\'m just curious. Maybe if it was a pig phero, that would lend credence to the idea that it\'s a human phero? We know -none is a phero to pigs & most people believe it is for humans.

Wilde, I take it from your last post that you don\'t believe -dienone to be a human phero? It\'s been a very long time since I looked at any of the Erox studies, but I seem to remember that there was evidence suggesting -dienone responses in humans.

What you posted seemed to be getting at why -dienone is excreted... which seems to miss the point of whether -dienone is a human phero.

[a.k.a.]

Way over my head. But thanks anyway. I love that photo with the women in lab coats sniffing guys’ armpits. Seems like science is a whole kink unto itself.

[oscar]

Tantalus,

Actually where I was going was HOW and into WHAT -dienone was being processed. I\'ll not deny the results of Erox\'s published studies, but ACCUSE them of bending the (forgive me..) TRUTH!
They\'ve maintained that Androstadienone is the ONLY true human pheromone. Why? Because it isn\'t classified as a pheromone in pigs? But pigs take it and convert it to None and Nol, just as we do.

I\'m not saying that -dienone isn\'t a human pheromone. I\'m merely trying to debunk the line that we\'ve been fed for so long, that t\'s the ONLY REAL human pheromone. I may have gone a bit overboard. I think it stems from receiving a Diocesan Catholic grade school education, whenyour \"Baltimore Catechism\" told you in no uncertain terms that because YOU were a Roman Catholic, you worhipped the ONLY TRUE GOD! And everyone that wasn\'t a Roman Catholic was goig to go to HELL, because they were worshipping FALSE GODS!
I got a similar sensation from Erox\"s studies. A bit too dogmatic for my tastes.

Oscar images/icons/laugh.gif
Please forgive what appear to be typos or grammatical errors. I\'ve got some kind of keyboard lock up happening where I cannot go back and interject anything without the following text being erased. Really, I always proof read my posts at least three times before committing, and would ordinarily NEVER allow this sort of carelessness to appear on the forum. Sorry. images/icons/blush.gif
WO. images/icons/crazy.gif

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Ok, in that light your post makes more sense. images/icons/smile.gif I didn\'t by the line that -dienone was the only true human phero to begin with. images/icons/smile.gif It\'s just not a claim an open minded scientist would make, seeing as not all pheros may have been discovered.

Btw, try hitting the insert key on your keyboard if you\'ve not yet.

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It all depends on how you define a human pheromone. If it needs to act through the VNO, Erox has a claim. If it just needs to affect hormone levels, then some of the other androgens (like -none and -nol) may be classified as pheromones. Whether these responses are conditioned through their association with -dienone is another other issue of debate. Should a scent that affects hormone levels through a conditioned response be classified as a pheromone? Even synthetic chemicals may elicit conditioned responses with the right association. According to JK, the visual perception of beauty is a conditioned response. However, if the vision of beauty elicits a hormonal response (probably does!), then isn\'t it a visual pheromone and just as significant as a chemical pheromone?!

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gents

I\'m glad to see a number of threads discussing dienone, IF the research is to be believed it has \"potential\".

I have also looked at Erox\'s \"research\" and I do think they are \"bending\" the truth a bit. If I remember correctly, they state that -none and -nol have no \"significant\" effect on the human VNO, But the charts they present only seem to show that -dienone is about X5 more stimulating to the VNO than other sterones they tested. Interestingly, the charts seem also to show muskone and civitone as more effective than -none and -nol at VNO stimulation. I beleive perfumers have been stuffing these in scents for a long time!...

If you really want to investigate further, badgering certain suppliers/manufactures of \"phero\" products \"may\" encourage them to supply these substances =dienone and dienol. Certainly the enquiries I have made have not been that negative....

maybe we are now on the threshold of a new generation of \"phero\" products. We have to create the demand - or no one will bother to create the supply!

Have a happy day

Cheers.

[oscar]

Gents,

I think for our purposes, we need to be quite broad in our definition of human pheromones. Basically anything chemical that gets the job done should qualify. Whether the point of reception be the VNO, the olfactory, or sub-olfactory receptors, or combinations thereof; and whether the source of the pheromonal signal be human, animal, vegetable, or mineral.

Knowing HOW something works is good, I too have always been a bit obsessed in this respect, but knowing THAT something works must logically take precedence.

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

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gents,

I realise from the various threads that a demand exists for a -dienone product. I do not think that we should have to go through chemical supply houses at the moment. LaCroy and Stone Labs both must be either synthesising or purchasing in the raw ingredients for their respective brews. I would think if they received enough emails asking for/about -dienone they would certainly look into the logistics of marketing such a product. This is what I mean by \"creating demand\". I too am interested in obtaining such a product, and the search for a source of this and \"phero\'s\" in general is what brought me to this site. The advantage of going by this route is that these companies will already have accounts with sources of raw \"phero\" chemicals and would not find it unduly hard to source what we require. They would also be able to supply the \"goods\" in ethanol at known concentrations, saving us the tedious bother of having to mix our own.


You thoughts on this tack?

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Well you could make a petition at
http://www.petitiononline.com/ (\"http://www.petitiononline.com/\")

and e-mail the different phero companies the page, so they can see the results. Getting alot of people reading this to send e-mails would be difficult. People are lazy. images/icons/smile.gif

I don\'t see why you think it\'s a bad idea to go through chem supply companies though. Likely it would be at least a few months until a -dienone product were rolled out, possibly much longer if there are legal problems with the Erox/Pherin patents.

I personally concluded it wasn\'t worth the trouble at this point... mainly b/c I have a lover, so I\'m not trying super hard. images/icons/smile.gif For other people it might be worth the bother though.

[oscar]

ratspeaker,

Stone is easily contacted through their retail site, and LaCroy through the nHance site. Stone seems the more likely candidate for getting us an Androstadienone product. They will at least tell us what\'s in their products. LaCroys people are helpful, but not nearly as candid as Stone\'s.

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[Watcher]

It seems to be with the erox patents everyone new in the past into pheromones has read thier information and for a while it was a main source (a case of a little info becoming used everywhere and being false to begin with or bended was accepted and multiplied to be the dominant view) the book mind wars covers such \"idea battles\" sort of like how \"UFOs\" and roswell blew up to all bullshit available everywhere 50 years later - chinesse whispers is what i mean\"
Rone has an effect that is being proven nol has always gotten the giggle responses none well in small amounts is ok gotta watch the aggressiveness though but doesnt break down into anything. The new dienone and dienol are being discussed along with rol and nine are two other types of androgens being left on the shelf discuss it folks. Probably all act like pheros but if the rumours are to be believe then the companies have already covered the testing and in a couple of years the perfume companies and chemical companies will come out with them all over the place so its only a matter of time.
It is certainly gettting plenty of media coverage here in the US anyway.

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Anyone ever thought of swabbing some underarm sweat and dabbing it onto your neck? =). It should contain all the pheromones.

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Ratspeaker, judging by this board, I\'d say the demand for a -dienone product is definitely here. I know I\'d certainly try it if I could get it. (I\'ve thought about trying to go through steraloids.com but I don\'t think it\'s worth the hassle at this point.)

Wilde, I think you\'re right about a broad definition of pheros for our purposes. However, if they work on an olfactory level, as opposed to VNO, I think they should be active at subconscious amounts to be defined as pheros. Otherwise, we could get into talking about colognes & perfumes. (Which are nice, but not what we\'re looking for here.)

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I just bumped up the sweat concentration abstract.

There are also some stats on page 20 of this informative document.
http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/courses/chemical_communication/shkafim05.pdf (\"http://www.tau.ac.il/lifesci/courses/chemical_communication/shkafim05.pdf\")