3rd and possibly final chance with this girl...

[neiltrain2]

hi, it isnt often that i'd keep trying to flog a dead horse but i'm unused to failure - often i

change my pheros and girls realise what they've been missing:)) - but i'm seeing a girl for the 3rd time this

weekend.

we chat a lot online there's been real chemistry there, just not when we meet.

I have tried

an A7/APC combo on her before. i reckon the first time it worked in a small dose, and i personally believe i ODed

the 2nd time and put her off.

my opinion is that the APC / subconsious A7 scent may be risky a 3rd time, she

would remember it as a turn off, maybe.

I'm tempted with NPA in a small dose, but i've also got some TE

which i guess is less likely to produce an OD.

i see this as the last chance to get her juices flowing so i

am prepared to take a risk.

she certainly wants me to be manly-caring so i can see the point of using some

RONE but also need to turn on the sexual chemistry and nothing like a little NPA to do that.... or TE ....

I

also have some AE which i BELIEVE has worked for me in the past , as has NPA, APC, A7 - i've had success with all

of these but the dosage is always a problem.

guess my question is - do i rely on the instinct that a small

amount of A7 worked the first time and build on this, or do i give her a completely different scent this time around

as she still hasn't come around to my way of thinking?:) i'm definitely gonna lose the APC scent this time but

dont really know which way to play this. it's a three strikes and out scenario, tricky one.....

[belgareth]

I'd go with the A7 in a small

dose. When you give her a new combo it is just as likely to confuse her.

Another thought is did you consider

that her monthly cycle may have been what put her off? Most women react poorly to -none around their period but at

the other end of the cycle react pretty favorably to it.

[neiltrain2]

yes, i'd considered the

cycle of the moon etc:)

sometimes i wish there were less mone products, i have about as complete an arsenal

as is possible and the options are numerous.

surely, i WANT to confuse her as she has said quite openly that

there was no spark. i've also read some stuff on attraction that says it's good to confuse a lady. cant remember

the reasoning but i recall it was quite a compelling argument.

i still think she acted v.DIHL first time

around, and not second time.

i'm concerned that APC will remind her of those negative/neutral feelings so

will take that out of the equation.

my current thinking is 2 drops A7 and 2 drops NPA. the only guarantee

with this is that i WILL get a reaction:)

again, i wished i'd kept notes of my heyday in 2003-2004 - all i

know is that Tammy has assured me I had NPA/APC/PPA/AE in those days. I had a huge amount of success before A7 was

invented and i'm pretty sure NPA had a lot to do with this,

having said that i'm pretty sure that NPA is a

nightclub/drunk girl weapon and possibly not as good in intimate one-to-one cosy chat type environments.

[belgareth]

You've got to remember that

-none is -none. It's all the same chemical whether it's in NPA, TE, A7 or something else. The important issues are

the amount you use and if it is buffered by some other pheromones. More is almost never better for most people.



I understand about losing as I hate to lose too...at anything. However, I do not chase moonbeams or try to catch

unicorns either. If it isn't there then it isn't. You might even be hurting your chances by chasing instead of

backing off. My self assured, cocky and sometimes arrogant attitude of "I ain't going to bother with you" has won

more hits than my former chasing ever did.

[neiltrain2]

i totally agree with you.

but i've made it clear to this girl that i dont care anymore, we're just friends etc etc so that part is taken

care of.

thinking back, changing the pheros have worked in the past. in the great summer of 2004 i had no

luck on 2 girls for a while, then wooed them both by changing formula. the ONLY problem is having no idea what i

changed from/to.

yes, NONE is NONE but NPA has that secret ingredient and whatever it is, probably p1ss going

by the smell, it works.

"less is more" is a tough concept for me to grasp. i've always thought that if 1 is

good, then 2 is twice as good.

ok, i'm gonna go with low dose of A7 and a v.low dose of NPA. and maybe just

a little SoE.

seriously, there isnt a single case of failure in my phero days but having said that, last time

i actually chased skirt was 2004 and i was a lot younger and more handsome:(

[belgareth]

My friend, today is my 52nd

birthday. I'm married to a 32 year old and still getting hits regularly from very sweet and very young women. Age

is nothing, forget about it. If I weren't married I could have all the young stuff I could handle...even if it

isn't all that much at my age :))

[idesign]

"I

ain't going to bother with you" has won more hits than my former chasing ever did.


Hear Hear!!

[idesign]

"less is more" is a tough concept for me to grasp. i've always thought that if 1 is

good, then 2 is twice as good.

ok, i'm gonna go with low dose of A7 and a v.low dose of NPA. and maybe just a

little SoE.

seriously, there isnt a single case of failure in my phero days but having said that, last time i

actually chased skirt was 2004 and i was a lot younger and more handsome:(

Twice as good is essentially

saying that you need 200 times your natural output rather than 100 times. Doesn't really make sense.

I was even

going to suggest you put on a healthy dose in the morning and go on the date with residual amounts and a nice

cover.

If you never failed even once you're either the luckiest guy alive or took no risks.

Anyway, good

luck, and let us know how this all went.

[neiltrain2]

yeah, i dont think the age

thing is a hindrance. being "out of the game" for a few years has merely made me rusty, and not having a diary of

the "wonder years" means i've got to experiment with 'mones all over again.... what a cross to bear:)

i

still cant go in there armed only with A7 because my hits were in the days before A7 and i need to play around with

it a lot more before i really trust it works in the way that NPA sure can.

i'm going to use a very small

quantity of each, mixed if i can manage it, one drop on each wrist and sit back and admire my handiwork i hope....

[neiltrain2]

i really wish i could do a

"Groundhog Day" on this one and replay this third date over and over and over til I get it right.

short of

asking her whether it was "the phase of the moon" the second time we met i can only go on my gut instinct that she

was fixated the first time when i used a base of A7 (4 drops) and a nice APC cover.

second time i applied the

A7 on top and it might have had an adverse smell or yes she could have been going through one of those "woman

moods." i do recall using a lot more A7 the second time so reckon i should keep the dosages down. i also used

unscented SoE the second time and have read it's actually possible to OD on that though i've used it to great

effect to get GIRLS I KNOW into bed at least 3 times this year, which is i think a new slant on how SoE might

work

one thing i noticed recently is how i get a lot of hits "next morning" from NPA and a whole host of

other pheros which just adds weight to the theory to apply at least an hour before meeting.... with NPA maybe a lot

earlier in the day for an evening meeting.

[chas]

Belgareth - which LS pheromone products and other things (e.g. Oudh) do you use successfully to get your hits from

all these young women?
Thanks.

[belgareth]

First thing to do is read this

thread http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19053 It isn't just the pheromones that make the

difference

I use Oud and musk oils as well as DST's Pheros products depending on my mood. The mone products I

use most are A7 and AQ, which is no longer sold. TE and NPA have always caused ODs for me.

[neiltrain2]

yeah, different people react

differently. i've always managed to attract OR totally offend young girls using NPA/APC in combo. the APC to cover

the scent. other people say NPA is the one for the younger girls, but it really depends on so many things like

Belgareth says.

I'm totally NOT an alpha male so can use larger quantities without OD. and i use different

pheros in different situations as i mentioned earlier in this post.

I find, for example, if i'm on a date i

would use a low concentration of NONE based products with maybe something thrown in to take the edge

off.

with girls i've known a while i somehow find scented SoE works wonders to get them "more than

friendly".

in a busy pub or club i'd use higher doses because the girl's attention is all over the place

and i need her to know it';s me wearing "the stuff that smells nice". also, drunk girls tend, in my opinion, to be

less prone to being put off by a large dose.

I find APC is very underrated. it is almost impossible in my

experience to OD, you can cover a more "stinky" phero with it, and it can be used, in crowded environments, to get a

girl in range where she can sense the other, subtler mones i'm using.

[chas]

Thanks for all the

info.
Belgareth, are the musk oils you use from elsewhere on the internet e.g. ham_firl & would you recommend a

particular type of musk oil e.g. Saudi Arabian ,etc.)
I bought some genuine musk oils from a supplier in the USA

but I haven't used them yet as they are highly concentrated drops & I was a bit wary of smelling too much like a

musk deer & putting women off...

[belgareth]

I buy them from Ham_firl and

prefer the chinese musk oil. Been dealing with him a long time now and he's one of the most honest and reputable

people out there. His musk oil can be dabbed directly onto the skin.

[neiltrain2]

CHAS - whereabouts in the UK

are you? i'm down in london

Belgareth - hmm, i dont think i'm ready to get too scientific yet because

there is still so much to learn about the efficacy of pheros - but why do you use these oils? are they as

cover-scents, or aphrodisiacs or what?

[belgareth]

Oud or Aloeswood is allegedly

an aphrodisiac and has other psychogenic properties. Monks have used it for centuries as an aid in meditation and it

has a calming effect on the mind. Musk oil is direved from the musk gland of certain deer. It is a strong

aphrodisiac and has been used for thousands of years. It is imitated chemically in numerous scents for both men and

women. Both compounds have attractive, complex scents and combine very well making great cover scents that are

highly unusual. Aloeswood especially because it reacts to your body chemistry and changes over time. It is always

uniquely your scent.

I'm not a scent fan and have never had much, if any, use for commercial scents. Who wants

to smell like the last three guys you followed out of the chemical factory? (Yes, I know that was unfair. But I

really have never found a commercial scent I liked)

[neiltrain2]

hmmm, i'm just getting the

hang of pheros after all these years and now there's another complex layer of scenting to be learned.

agree

with you regarding the commercial scents. luckily the last 3 guys werent wearing APC or scented SOE either so at

least i have the edge there.

sooo... if i were to try one of these products what would you recommend to a

complete novice? ....and why are they all Dutch sounding i wonder?

[belgareth]

Dutch sounding? oud is from the

far and middle east and musk is from all over the world.

If you are asking about Oud recomendations I'd say to

go for the darker Ouds as they have richer and more complex scents. If you contact Ham_Firl and ask him he will give

you the best of advice, far better than I can offer. He has an ebay store called QTs store.

[neiltrain2]

"oud" and "aloes" are both

dutch words. Oud means old, and my dutch daughter's aunt is called "loes."

I would suggest therefore that

the Dutch "discovered" some of these oils on their travels. after all, they did colonise indonesia and various

other territories in that part of the world.

well, that's well off-thread.

these are certainly scents

i'll look into more. how good are they as cover? i've always used APC as cover as it lasts, i find the crapper

commercial scents just die on me which is a pain when i'm wearing NPA.

[neiltrain2]

ok, i'm intrigued now:)

found a UK site which may be of more use to me. packaging-wise it'd be cheaper and as i'm no expert i'll just go

for the relatively more expensive one that they claim will "mesmerize" people:)

looking at the origins of Oud

it does seem a lot of these places were dutch territories....

[neiltrain2]

"Oudh/Aloeswood oil is

derived from an Agarwood tree that grows abundantly in Laos, but is found all over Southeast Asia. The highest

quality Agarwood trees can be found in the former countries of Indochina" - so there we have it:)

[belgareth]

Even if the names that have

stuck were Dutch, which I don't really accept, the oils were produced and traded in India, Arabia and the orient

for close to a thousand years before the Europian colonizations. My understanding is the word Oud is of Arabic

origins. In India it was produced exclusively under license from the Royal House for hundreds of years. Numerous

countries claim to have the finest Agarwood trees, which grow in almost every swampy area of the South Pacific

regions. I personally am not all that enchanted with the Laotian Ouds that I have tried and prefer the ones from the

Arabian regions. Although one Vietnamese Oud I had a while back was superb.

In any case, Oud, like anything else

is strictly a matter of personal preference and the naming is of little consequence other than convienance so

everybody knows that we are talking about the same things. If you want to read more about it, go to the Aloeswood

thread I started a long time ago. There are some links to various Oud sites and histories.

[chas]

Neiltrain2 - I'm in London too.

Belgareth - have you been able to link a hit from a younger

woman with a specific item when it was used on its own, e.g. musk oil used on its own, or have you always used

several items together?

I am wondering whether you experimented with individual items to see which got more

hits or whether you devised a combination of Oud, Musk oil, A7, etc to cover most factors at once.

I realise

that pheromones have to be used in combination with attitude, bearing, humour, clothes, etc.

Also, different

subject - Belgareth, have you got any tips please on the best way of talking to a quite a bit younger woman for the

first time?

I ask because I recently witnessed someone, who you would have thought to have little chance of

attracting women on appearance alone... , basically chat up a younger woman. Within a few minutes she 'under his

spell'. It was amazing. I couldn't hear what he was saying but I got the impression that it wasn't a softly

softly approach as I might have used. He just took control & overwhelmed the female part of her brain. I'm sure

that he has done this trick before.

[neiltrain2]

not that i've been asked

but i'll give my opinion anyway:

i've used all the products as standalones quite a lot because i want to

see what effect they produce on their own. the latest addition to my arsenal is A7 and i wear it out, even just to

go to the shops, quite regularly, to test it out.

what i've started to do now that i wish i'd done years

ago is note "hits" and what i was wearing at the time.

the good news is that i've had hits with nearly all

the products i've used: NPA, APC, PPA, SoE, A7, AE. they all work, and they all seem to work slightly differently,

and they all work differently in different environments and for different people. partly it's even psychological -

i feel better with NPA on because i know it's given me great results in the past and that makes me more confident

and therefore more likely to get hits...
I've also managed to screw up badly a couple of times but i can

pinpoint that as an NPA overdose. it's my fave product when it works but it's volatile stuff. i believe it's

the most "sexual" of the lot, and when it works it REALLY works but be prepared to screw up from time to time.
I

still believe APC is great cos it's got a low dose, attracts girls to come "in range" because of the scent and

covers the stinkier -none based smells very well, better than most commercial scents could ever do, and better for

that matter than all the other scented pheros.

this might not be particularly helpful but the key is to get

out there and experiment and just note when a girl acts "out of the ordinary" around you whether you're trying to

pull her or just see her in a shop etc.

what have you got, currently, or are you looking to make a

purchase?

[belgareth]

Chas,

I started using and

experimenting with mones 6 years ago to help my business. At the same time I went through something of a

metamorphesis in my personality. Prior to starting my business I was a corporate technical manager and best known

for hiding away in my department with a herd of others like me. It was not my intent to pick up women, as a matter

of fact, my wife and I split up not long after I started my business and I was rather disgusted with all females.



My experiments with mones were intended to help me in selling my services to other business people and that was my

focus. But in learning to sell I discovered a gregerious side to myself that appeals to women. One thing I did to

both help pull me out of my shell and earn some badly needed cash was doing some part time lecturing at a local

college. I discovered, much to my tremendous surprise, that I am a good speaker and really enjoy it.

Simply

put, I was having a good time and letting my naturally odd sense of humor out. I really believe the pheromones were

secondary to what I was doing. I did learn quickly to stay away from TE/NPA because I ODed every time it seemed.

Other than that I just played around until I found something that seemed to help my sales results and my charisma as

a speaker. I think my personal self confidence has had a lot to do with it. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I

hate to lose. Because I feel strongly about that I try hard to always win. You win often enough and it shows in your

demeanor. I am also in very good physical condition and it shows in the way I stand or move.

Mostly cover scents

were whatever scent was included wih the pheromones, otherwise I didn't even think about it. A few years later I

was planning a later aborted trip to Asia when I ran across reference to Aloeswood and decided to try it. From there

I was hooked and it led to adding musk later. So, you might say that my pheromone combination attracting women has

all been an accident but I think it would only work well if you were in the same situation or a similar one.

How

to explain the rest? I don't aproach any woman with the idea of hitting on her, never. Even before I remarried I

would make it a point to almost ignore the prettiest ones and pay attention to the rest or the guys in the group. Of

course this is never in bars or traditional pickup places. I don't go to places like that for my own reasons. And I

am always friendly, cheerful, funny, polite, slightly reserved and seemingly sure of myself. I'm told that most

women get the idea that they do not interest me or that I haven't even noticed they are female. The whole attitude

came about because I am sure of myself most of the time and because I felt that around college students, while

acting as a teacher, I had to be a professional and not seen as interested in their sweet young bodies :) The same

applies in business situations. I show nothing but professional interest and a good attitude.

Does all that

babble help? I get hits by not trying too?

[chas]

Neiltrain2 - thanks for your reply.

Belgareth - you went to a lot of trouble with your reply so

thanks. I'm not far off your age which is probably why I am so interested in your experience - I'm trying to pick

your brains!

I see your overall point. 2 things I could do with some clarification please.

You said that

you usually seem sure of yourself. How did you achieve this? By learning to sell/public speaking or was it started

by a learned technique, subliminal tapes, etc.

Secondly, would musk oil applied neat be too strong for the

female sense of smell which is meant to be more sensitive than a man's ?

[chas]

Belgareth - you mentioned that you still get hits from young women even though you apparently don't look for hits.

How do you achieve this then? Are they attracted by your personality &/or is it your apparent disinterest in them

which is fascinating them?

I read somewhere that some attractive women are intrigued by an apparent lack of

interest in them - that you have to get them to want you. Reverse thinking to most people.

[neiltrain2]

thought maybe i'd get back

"on thread" as it's under 24 hours til this crunch date:)

i hate choice, sometimes i wish there were only

one phero product out there....

all i know thus far is this: A7 had a positive effect but she thought, maybe

a week after, that we lacked "that spark/chemistry"

having said that, she sort of wants to like me because as

a person she finds me interesting and challenging, and she wishes she could feel different.

i'm totally

non-alpha, she sees me more as being intelligent and caring, and i'd see myself also as more "cute and funny" than

macho, it's always worked for me before.
she also knows i'm crazy and there's no point me trying to prove

myself as the guy who can look after her materially for life, she's the stable one.

it's tough to know what

to go for here, obviously i need to ignite "that spark" and i've done it numerous times in the past. girls who

first saw nothing in me suddenly "switched" their opinions 100% a few weeks later, it's what i'm aiming to do on

this girl cos i actually really like her as a person.

maybe she's already coming around to my way of

thinking, she did invite me out to dinner after all.

we dont play games with each other, we know each other

inside out which is refreshing it's a totally open and honest relationship as it stands.

i dont think

there's much point me trying to pretend to be anything i'm not with this girl, she knows me too well. i'm

guessing all i'm trying to do is ignite the spark, therefore sexual chemistry, therefore NONE.

..however

i've also read that NOL can illicit a sexual response. and i have had quite some success with scented

SoE.

any final thoughts before i venture forth unto the breach?

...ps interesting what you said

Belgareth. i have a good reason, too, not to go to bars or standard pickup places, but it doesnt bother me like it

does some other people i know.

[neiltrain2]

sorry guys our threads are

crossing......

chas: 2 things i've learned, for now.
1. girls, like men, are mammals and as rational as

we humans try to be we we still base a lot on our animal instincts. women "test" men to see if they are strong etc

and will protect them and their babies. therefore, not caring, not appearing weak and vulnerable is actually a turn

on for them. sad, but true.

2. WIIFM. think of it from the girl's viewpoint. what are they really

after/looking for. i used this successfully in eastern europe for years before being forced to return to the UK. i

noticed that the women there really hated their drunken, aggressive alpha-male countryfolk and that a polite, caring

englishman was something that really attracted them and i played on that. obviously, a European passport and a

flambouyancy with money didnt really harm me, either:)

[belgareth]

I'm not far

off your age which is probably why I am so interested in your experience - I'm trying to pick your brains!

I

see your overall point. 2 things I could do with some clarification please.

You said that you usually seem sure

of yourself. How did you achieve this? By learning to sell/public speaking or was it started by a learned technique,

subliminal tapes, etc.

Secondly, would musk oil applied neat be too strong for the female sense of smell which

is meant to be more sensitive than a man's ?
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not trying to brag, I'm not

wealthy and never will be and my personality has caused me as much grief as benefit. My self confidence comes from

several things. My hatred for losing and for being less than the best at anything I do must be something I was born

with. To say I am competitve is a serious understatement. As a result I always got good grades in school.

Unfortunately, it came with a very smart mouth too and I got into lots of trouble as a kid. As a teenager some

bright person encouraged me to get involved in marshal arts, which I practice to this day though I no longer compete

only do it for the exercise. Marshal arts settled me down a lot but also helped me learn to handle myself physically

in almost any situation.

Once I got into the working world I still competed at everything. Never out loud but in

my mind I never accepted being less than the top. It made me work hard. As a result of that attitude, I win a lot.

Win often and you develop a winners attitude. You believe in yourself and know you can do anything you try to do.

That's why I usually appear self confident and at times arrogant. I do try to not be arrogant but I don't always

succeed. And sometimes I come across as arrogant when I'm actually just being quiet. In the end, I know a lot of

things and know what I am and even like myself, most of the time. That all shows.

To this day I work out

regularly and I study new things for no better reason than it fulfills something in me.

I apply musk oil by

dabbing it straight from the bottle onto my forearm and spreading it by rubbing my arms together. It works fine.




Belgareth - you mentioned that you still get hits from young women even though you apparently

don't look for hits. How do you achieve this then? Are they attracted by your personality &/or is it your apparent

disinterest in them which is fascinating them?

I read somewhere that some attractive women are intrigued by an

apparent lack of interest in them - that you have to get them to want you. Reverse thinking to most

people.
I'm friendly, non-threatening and a polite gentleman, to put it simply. I smile a lot, make people

laugh and laugh with them. It does not matter where I am or who it is, being good natured, friendly and polite is

always important.

I am my own man. A man should always stand proud for who and what he is, if he does that and

takes good care of himself he will attract women. If he refuses to play the silly chase games the pretty girls all

expect he becomes a challenge. When he refuses to allow anybody to walk on or take advantage of him he earns

respect. All these things add up to creating attraction.

One of the most amusing things I do is to ignore the

most attractive girls and talk or kid with their friends. It drives them wild because they are so used to a man who

only looks at the pretty ones and tries so hard to get their attention. At the same time it flatters the less pretty

girls and they love it.

There is no one thing I do. It's a whole list of things added together that I call

being a man.

[idesign]

Bel's comments ring true with

my experience, and we're about the same age (cough!). Four things stand out to me as I read his post.

1. Be a

gentleman - be polite, nice, kind, good manners, don't put people down, indeed, build them up with your

conversation.

2. Use your sense of humor - I can't count how many times I've been told, or read, or heard from

women that making them laugh is a huge aphrodisiac.

3. Develop your interests - people with a wide range of

interests are interesting people. To anyone.

4. Be genuine - "game" may work for a night, but will you want to

eat breakfast with this person? Being yourself will attract the kind of people you really want to be with, the kind

who are attracted to who you really are.

Nice post Bel.

[Mtnjim]

Listen to the "children" above,

they have EXCELLENT advice.

[neiltrain2]

Belgareth - not sure what

the posting protocols are here but i've found as i said a very interesting website selling Oud oils and musks

(although it says the musk comes from flowers...all very confusing) and various other fragrances of this ilk

including sandalwood- would you mind taking a look if i give the address on this forum?

this is a totally new

domain for me to enter but i AM looking for a decent cover scent and this may be the way forward.

it's a

little confusing as they talk about certain fragrances being a "base" and i'm too busy mixing pheros to mix

anything else....

...also they talk of a White Musk that invokes "warmth and compassion" but is talked of as

a "feminine" fragrance and i cant work out if this is still for men...

the Ouds are not cheap, but one which

is tempting offers "pure Agarwood Oil (Oudh) in Pure Sandalwood Oil"
...there is also indian oud, burmese oud,

amber oud and a host of other fragrances including musks....

the Oud products are expensive - the Musks less

so - would be good if someone could take a look and maybe suggest something to a novice like me - thanks.

[belgareth]

Why don't you go ahead and

post the link in the Aloeswood thread.

The general policy is that links to useful resources is permitted. Links

to competing sites, links to your own commercial site, spam links like the ones for viagra and porn and other links

for profit are not allowed. The intent that we try to stick to is keeping this an informative and useful place

without all the garbage that you find other places.