How to be an Alpha Male

[HornyMan]

Have any of

you read this book?

What do you think of it? I've seen the reviews on Amazon.com and it looks good. Kinda

expensive at $50

Nonetheless do you find you stay alpha by being verbally nice, or do you have to talk smack.

Just wondering if that would get you fired in a business environment.

I know its about picking up chicks and

being a don huan, but really how to do you stay alpha in a corporate setting without getting your ass kicked by your

superiors?

UNLESS he teaches how to control verbiage so you may act alpha, be alpha, look alpha, feel alpha,

but talk pleasantly but firm. if this is what is meant by alpha then that is great.

Anyone here read the

book?

[Pagodeiro]

Good evening HornyMan
sounds

interesting .... i´m going to order the book ... maybe it helps along with the hole pick up stuff ...
hope that

it´s available here in germany .. usually it should be and then i will post my opinion here ....
best Pago

[Mtnjim]

UNLESS he

teaches how to control verbiage so you may act alpha, be alpha, look alpha, feel alpha, but talk pleasantly but

firm. if this is what is meant by alpha then that is great.

Anyone here read the book?

Haven't read

the book, but the quote above is the essence of "Alpha". Unfortunately, a lot of people (mostly guys)

mistakenly attribute "Alpha" with the chest thumping pushy loudmouth. That is just being a bullying a-hole.:think:

[HornyMan]

Haven't

read the book, but the quote above is the essence of "Alpha". Unfortunately, a lot of people (mostly guys)

mistakenly attribute "Alpha" with the chest thumping pushy loudmouth. That is just being a bullying

a-hole.:think:
He distinguishes in the book between nice guys, alpha males, and jerks. So its quite

possible this book can be used in a corporate setting for picking up women too.

Most of it is geared towards

dating and sex, as would be expected, but it's nice to see personality development guidelines for playing the alpha

role carved into a manual. That can be used in business, friendship, and parenting, let alone women and

sex.

I've ordered the product myself so in about 1-2 weeks I'll know how it holds up.

Some examples

of males I think are alpha . Johnny Depp, brad Pitt etc. I don't think tom cruise is. I feel he comes across as

a loud mouth screaming jerk whose not alpha because he is constantly teased for being a midget. Depp and Pitt

don't get teased, and Depp is not that much taller (5'10"). Bottom line screamers = jerks not alpha

males.

Depp doesn't get walked over by woman, neither does brad pitt and neither of them act like ass**les.

So let's hope this book is in the same spirit .



HM

[theman03]

I've read it, what would you

like to know?

[HornyMan]

I've

read it, what would you like to know?
Hi Theman03

I would like to know:

a) Can an alpha

male personality coexist in the workplace or will you get in trouble with your superiors? Can it get you

fired.

b) Does the alpha male personality require shouting, attitude etc. Or is it more firm mannered

requests for everthing

c) It is very practical or more theoretical? Are exact things you say , do etc laid

out for you?

d) How do you best describe what is laid out as an alpha male in this book if you were talking

to someone on this forum. What makes the alpha male so alpha?

e) what mone signature is compatible with this

"act"?

f) can an Alpha male still be a gentleman?

I know I'm asking a lot but I'd appreciate if you

could respond as detailed as you can.

Thanks
HM

[Mtnjim]

I've moved this thread out of

Pheromone Discussion to a more appropriate location. Continue discussion...\o/

[theman03]

Hi

Theman03

I would like to know:

a) Can an alpha male personality coexist in the workplace or will you get in

trouble with your superiors? Can it get you fired.

b) Does the alpha male personality require shouting, attitude

etc. Or is it more firm mannered requests for everthing

c) It is very practical or more theoretical? Are exact

things you say , do etc laid out for you?

d) How do you best describe what is laid out as an alpha male in this

book if you were talking to someone on this forum. What makes the alpha male so alpha?

e) what mone signature is

compatible with this "act"?

f) can an Alpha male still be a gentleman?

I know I'm asking a lot but I'd

appreciate if you could respond as detailed as you can.

Thanks
HM

A. Yes it can coexist in the

workplace. However, if your boss is an alpha-male type you may bump heads. But it usually will lead to a mutual

respect between you both. However, if your boss looks to you to be his alpha male, even though he is in a position

above you, it can yield to you getting away with breaking the rules and being fast forwarded with a promotion.

B.

Quite the contrary. Alpha males don't shout, have attitude, or command people around. An alpha male leads by

example, is very polite, etc. Shouting implies that the particular person who is shouting doesn't feel important

enough to be heard and thus has to resort to "shouting" to be heard. Not an alpha male trait. Having "attitude" is

only warranted when your being attacked with attitude, stand your ground but know your limits, sometimes the bigger

man really does walk away (your indirectly saying that he/she isn't worth your time with your actions), but even

then you do not shout, by being cool calm and collected it shows that you have CONTROL of the situation, which is

what an alpha male is. And if you notice people who tend not to shout back at the person usually get shouted at even

more by the other party because the other person is feeling even more secure by shouting in the first place.

C.

Yes, its very practical. Its not really laid out in a sense that you have to follow certain rules but more so in the

fact that your whole personality revolves around a single concept. For instance, when dealing with a female, refrain

from volunteering information unless she asks. When in a conversation, don't be afraid to direct the conversation

to where you want it to go, and try to do more listening then talking. When people feel the need to talk to you its

because they feel your valuable enough to hear what it is their trying to say. Never go out of your way to speak

with someone, your important and therefore they will come to you. If the particular thing that you wanted to talk

about wasn't really important then drop it all together. By seeking out a particular person and asking for their

time in a conversation your indirectly telling them that they are more alpha then you are. So let people come to

you.

D. Its about letting people do what they want but them always doing what you want. IE, consulting you before

we go out tonight to see where you wanna go, them apologizing for things they do to you, waiting for you to speak..

just think about a son/father relationship when how you felt when you were dealing with your father, your father was

the alpha in that case. Think about the emotions you felt, how you felt when you thought he'd be pissed off, etc.

An alpha male is, for lack of a better term, everyone's father who are in the same social group.

E. I suppose a

more aggressive mone. But the main thing is that your body lanugage, speach, and other things have to complement the

mone/alpha you portray. Ex, shoulders back, chest out - shows dominance. Chin up - shows territory. Eyes slightly

closed - shows relaxation because you dont feel threatened. Also, speaking very slow is very important (not to

slow). Also, jerky body movements is a non-alpha trait. You want to be slow a deliberate with your actions.

F. A

true alpha male IS a gentleman!

[HornyMan]

Thanks Theman03. That was very

detailed and informative.

Makes me count the days till my copy arrives. :-)

HM

[belgareth]

Sounds like that book nailed

some things many of us have been saying on the forum for some years.

Well put but I'd like to add one last

concept. You can always turn your back on an alpha male and know there won't be a knife waiting for you. If he has

a problem it will be to your face, never in the back.

[theman03]

Sounds

like that book nailed some things many of us have been saying on the forum for some years.

Well put but I'd

like to add one last concept. You can always turn your back on an alpha male and know there won't be a knife

waiting for you. If he has a problem it will be to your face, never in the back.

Thats wrong in my

opinion. An alpha male will turn his back because he knows the guy who he's turning away from doesn't have the

balls to hit him.

That doesn't mean you don't expect it in the back of your mind!

[idesign]

F. A

true alpha male IS a gentleman!




Well put but I'd like to add one last

concept. You can always turn your back on an alpha male and know there won't be a knife waiting for you. If he has

a problem it will be to your face, never in the back.

Correct on both counts.

I think Bel meant that

you can trust an alpha to not act cowardly.

[Guy101]

I have read the book & it has

helped me a great deal in understanding the phycology of women & how they think, act, & hide. It has helped me in

enhancing my confidence, posture, & to how to use just body language in attracting women.

[HornyMan]

I have read

the book & it has helped me a great deal in understanding the phycology of women & how they think, act, & hide. It

has helped me in enhancing my confidence, posture, & to how to use just body language in attracting

women.
Guy 101

I know in the book the author talks about body language and over 20 "killers" men do

every day to ruin their chances with women.

Can you list several of these from the book? What kind of body

language mistakes are there?

thanks

HM

[HornyMan]

A. Yes it

can coexist in the workplace. However, if your boss is an alpha-male type you may bump heads. But it usually will

lead to a mutual respect between you both. However, if your boss looks to you to be his alpha male, even though he

is in a position above you, it can yield to you getting away with breaking the rules and being fast forwarded with a

promotion.

B. Quite the contrary. Alpha males don't shout, have attitude, or command people around. An alpha

male leads by example, is very polite, etc. Shouting implies that the particular person who is shouting doesn't

feel important enough to be heard and thus has to resort to "shouting" to be heard. Not an alpha male trait. Having

"attitude" is only warranted when your being attacked with attitude, stand your ground but know your limits,

sometimes the bigger man really does walk away (your indirectly saying that he/she isn't worth your time with your

actions), but even then you do not shout, by being cool calm and collected it shows that you have CONTROL of the

situation, which is what an alpha male is. And if you notice people who tend not to shout back at the person usually

get shouted at even more by the other party because the other person is feeling even more secure by shouting in the

first place.

C. Yes, its very practical. Its not really laid out in a sense that you have to follow certain

rules but more so in the fact that your whole personality revolves around a single concept. For instance, when

dealing with a female, refrain from volunteering information unless she asks. When in a conversation, don't be

afraid to direct the conversation to where you want it to go, and try to do more listening then talking. When people

feel the need to talk to you its because they feel your valuable enough to hear what it is their trying to say.

Never go out of your way to speak with someone, your important and therefore they will come to you. If the

particular thing that you wanted to talk about wasn't really important then drop it all together. By seeking out a

particular person and asking for their time in a conversation your indirectly telling them that they are more alpha

then you are. So let people come to you.

D. Its about letting people do what they want but them always doing

what you want. IE, consulting you before we go out tonight to see where you wanna go, them apologizing for things

they do to you, waiting for you to speak.. just think about a son/father relationship when how you felt when you

were dealing with your father, your father was the alpha in that case. Think about the emotions you felt, how you

felt when you thought he'd be pissed off, etc. An alpha male is, for lack of a better term, everyone's father who

are in the same social group.

E. I suppose a more aggressive mone. But the main thing is that your body

lanugage, speach, and other things have to complement the mone/alpha you portray. Ex, shoulders back, chest out -

shows dominance. Chin up - shows territory. Eyes slightly closed - shows relaxation because you dont feel

threatened. Also, speaking very slow is very important (not to slow). Also, jerky body movements is a non-alpha

trait. You want to be slow a deliberate with your actions.

F. A true alpha male IS a

gentleman!
theman03

great review.

Can you talk about the importance of tonality with

respect to the alpha male? You say alpha's don't shout, but if they speak like "the beaver" I doubt they'd get

many people to listen. On a side note I invested in a great book/cd combo called "LOVE your voice" which is about

training your speaking voice.

They say 90% of communication is dependent on HOW you say it not what you

say. It enables you to project whatever voice tone you want (be it gentle or firm, anxious or relaxed, fast or

slow, loud or soft)

Does the alpha male character rely on his presentation of speech. Or does he focus on

just what he has to say?

I have a hard time believing the "beaver" could be alpha even if he looked and acted

it and said all the right things with his voice tone the way it is.

Any thoughts?

I'm investing in

developing my voice as I was always told it was monotone and quiet and timid.




HM

[belgareth]

Correct

on both counts.

I think Bel meant that you can trust an alpha to not act cowardly.
That's correct. I

didn't say anything about the alpha turning his back. I said you could turn your back on the alpha male and not

have to worry that he would stab you in the back.

An alpha can generally figure out who is too cowardly to even

attack from behind and knows when it is safe to turn his back on another. There are a lot of the bully type assholes

who won't hesitate to stab you in the back if they get the chance. They are never true alpha males, only wannabes.

They are the same ones who find it necessarry to shout, make threats and deride others instead of being calm and

helpful.

[HornyMan]

That's

correct. I didn't say anything about the alpha turning his back. I said you could turn your back on the alpha male

and not have to worry that he would stab you in the back.

An alpha can generally figure out who is too cowardly

to even attack from behind and knows when it is safe to turn his back on another. There are a lot of the bully type

assholes who won't hesitate to stab you in the back if they get the chance. They are never true alpha males, only

wannabes. They are the same ones who find it necessarry to shout, make threats and deride others instead of being

calm and helpful.
belgareth

Would you consider Johnny Depp's character Tom Hanson to be an alpha

male in 21 jump street from the 1980's?

I found him to be VERY alpha and he expresses his feelings which

means he raises his voice when speaking and shouts during intense conflicts resolution with his

captain.

Perhaps this is alpha but only in the movies. Perhaps his good looks let him get away from looking

like an asshole and more like looking like a model whose serious and upset.

Regardless he is not always

polite. yet I don't see him come across as an asshole. Tom cruise does though -- he looks like one , acts like

one, and talks like one. Probably because he's been humiliated so much by the press about his

height.

:)

HM

[belgareth]

I don't watch TV so have never

seen the character you mention. However, based on your description, no. I would not consider him an alpha because I

believe that if you need to shout it only demonstrates insecurity. Johnny Depp himself I think is most likely an

alpha type male in his real life. The character you describe would not be taken seriously in a real life situation

or followed willingly. Most likely he would not be a trusted leader at the instinctual level either.

Something

to think about, being an alpha or beta is not something black or white. There are varying degrees of each and they

often merge or overlap. You can have some of the characteristics of each personality type, most people do.

[koolking1]

"Something to think about,

being an alpha or beta is not something black or white. There are varying degrees of each and they often merge or

overlap. You can have some of the characteristics of each personality type, most people do."

That's 100%

correct.

I think one can evolve into an alpha male by wanting to be one or by being forced to be one.



You want to be one so you buy the book(s), study them, and practice the techniques, and evolve into one, at

least to some extent. However, you may be too late to gather all the benefits. You might be stuck at a certain

point. In the Air Force they give a further personality test to aspiring pilots, most of whom are 22 years old.

One of the questions is: "would you rather go to your friend's house and shoot pool as they have a pool table or

would you rather they come to your house to watch TV". You won't get into fighters if you wanna play pool.



There's occupations that force you to become an alpha to varying degrees such as the military, police,

firefighters, nurses, etc.. You start out as a follower but learn from your leaders how to lead. You have to be

willing to do things that most others aren't willing to do. I joined the Air Force not because I was willing to

fight or die but because a judge more or less gave me two choices, service or a minor criminal record (being in

possession of a six-pack of beer at 17). I was too stupid at the time to understand that even the worst lawyer

could have got me out of that one. So, I eventually became alpha after about 15 years in the service.

I

don't understand why some of you are looking to movie stars to define the alpha, they are acting - you don't see

the real Depp or Cruise.

Think of a wad of kleenex lying on the floor in a corridor of the company where

you work. Many will walk by it and think, "ah, the janitor will eventually get it", or "yuck, that's disgusting"

or "who cares, it's not my job to pick it up". The alpha will pick it up and dispose of it.

[belgareth]

An alpha is more often the one

who can nurture others, help them out and encourage them with no thought of reward. People listen to him and follow

him willingly without the bluster, bravado and bullshit. He has the courage to follow what he believes is right by

his own standards without worrying whether others approve of his actions.

The asshole that mistreats his woman

or children, or the one who is always loud and boisterous to garner attention, the classic jerk, is never an alpha.

The guy ho treats others with respect while maintaining his own self respect is the alpha. The guy that gives and

gives and allows others to walk all over him is not an alpha either. An alpha sets his parameters for personal

relations and follows those rules because he believes that way.

Pretty bad that we can only seem to define

something through negative examples, isn't it?

[theman03]

Thats because the media and

hollywood bombard people with that image.

No problem. If you have anymore questions or examples just ask. I'll

do my best to help you out. BTW, I have a digital copy of it on my computer I could have sent to you to save some

bucks, if you want it let me know.

[HornyMan]

Thats

because the media and hollywood bombard people with that image.

No problem. If you have anymore questions or

examples just ask. I'll do my best to help you out. BTW, I have a digital copy of it on my computer I could have

sent to you to save some bucks, if you want it let me know.
Hi theman03

Could you send it to

me:
adrian.dsouza@sympatico.ca

I have purchased it but I may want to return it down the

road.

thanks

[HornyMan]

"Something to think about, being an alpha or beta is not something black or white. There

are varying degrees of each and they often merge or overlap. You can have some of the characteristics of each

personality type, most people do."

That's 100% correct.

I think one can evolve into an alpha male

by wanting to be one or by being forced to be one.

You want to be one so you buy the book(s), study them,

and practice the techniques, and evolve into one, at least to some extent. However, you may be too late to gather

all the benefits. You might be stuck at a certain point. In the Air Force they give a further personality test to

aspiring pilots, most of whom are 22 years old. One of the questions is: "would you rather go to your friend's

house and shoot pool as they have a pool table or would you rather they come to your house to watch TV". You won't

get into fighters if you wanna play pool.

There's occupations that force you to become an alpha to varying

degrees such as the military, police, firefighters, nurses, etc.. You start out as a follower but learn from your

leaders how to lead. You have to be willing to do things that most others aren't willing to do. I joined the Air

Force not because I was willing to fight or die but because a judge more or less gave me two choices, service or a

minor criminal record (being in possession of a six-pack of beer at 17). I was too stupid at the time to understand

that even the worst lawyer could have got me out of that one. So, I eventually became alpha after about 15 years in

the service.

I don't understand why some of you are looking to movie stars to define the alpha, they are

acting - you don't see the real Depp or Cruise.

Think of a wad of kleenex lying on the floor in a corridor

of the company where you work. Many will walk by it and think, "ah, the janitor will eventually get it", or "yuck,

that's disgusting" or "who cares, it's not my job to pick it up". The alpha will pick it up and dispose of

it.
Do you believe in tonality? Do you believe that the tone you say things is more important than the

words themselves/?

Roger love thinks so. He says tone and body language is 93% of communication. 7% goes

into what you say.

Does alpha male take that into consideration?

As for alpha male picking up kleenex

I think thats disgusting. Alpha is not the equivalent of janitor. I think alpha would pikc up his own kleenex but

make a note to the management of "maintaneance engineers" to take care of the kleenex :)

[DrSmellThis]

It's interesting because many

alpha traits, IMO, are counterintuitive to an immature understanding.

For example, a really essential trait is

humility. All the greats I meet are just really, really modest and humble, while at the same time acting confidently

in their role as steward of a situation. They understand how difficult meaningful things are, and how insignificant

their talents, efforts and accomplishments are in the bigger picture. (Remember Bruce's Mother Teresa quote? Bruce

is the alpha here, and look how humble he is...)

For instance, I can almost tell who is a great musician is by

how humble they are, by the nature of their humility. Everything is humility, even as there is a quiet confidence

underneath; which of course they don't have to tell you anything about.

The braggart who tells me about his CDs

and boldly asks to play my guitar to show off to his friends is almost always a terrible musician; at best

very mediocre. I meet these guys often when out playing.

I never have to actually hear them play.

Paco de

Lucia is worshipped as a god in Spain, and he knows it. I'm not kidding. He accepts that role, and the

responsibility that goes with it. He reinvented flamenco for modern times; carried the tradition on his back, and

elevated it to a new level. There arguably has never been a guitar player on the planet with his mastery of

technique, just for starters. He is the guitar master's guitar master. Paco is extremely humble. It's NOT an

act.

It's not about the person's ego, as Bel's description also suggests. A person has the capability to lead

a situation, and they just do it, without even necessarily taking credit.

The typical adolescent, macho, or

superficial ideas of what alpha is are really off base, including some of the ideas expressed in this forum (old

regulars excluded :)). If only I knew then what I know now...

A person is best off just being themselves, and

learning to be OK with that. This, however, is a mouthful to say.

[DrSmellThis]

Do you

believe in tonality? Do you believe that the tone you say things is more important than the words themselves/?



Roger love thinks so. He says tone and body language is 93% of communication. 7% goes into what you say.



Does alpha male take that into consideration?

As for alpha male picking up kleenex I think thats disgusting.

Alpha is not the equivalent of janitor. I think alpha would pikc up his own kleenex but make a note to the

management of "maintaneance engineers" to take care of the kleenex :)The alpha picks up the kleenex and

doesn't think twice about it, especially the part about humbling himself or herself to stoop down; or the part

about it being disgusting... (OK, I'm ignoring pragmatic biohazard concerns for the sake of argument).

The

alpha doesn't conceive of their own value and validity as having anything to do with all that! There are a thousand

instances a day like this. Not to get religious in choosing an easy example, but think of how often Jesus of

Nazareth "stooped".

Again, think "humilty."

Can't you imagine Martin Luther King picking up the kleenex?



Donald Trump might not pick up the Kleenex, but to me he just in it for himself, and not an alpha. He is more a

rich assshole; busy trading insults with Rosie O'Donnel. :)

[HornyMan]

The

alpha picks up the kleenex and doesn't think twice about it, especially the part about humbling himself or herself

to stoop down; or the part about it being disgusting... (OK, I'm ignoring pragmatic biohazard concerns for the sake

of argument).

The alpha doesn't conceive of their own value and validity as having anything to do with all

that! There are a thousand instances a day like this. Not to get religious in choosing an easy example, but think of

how often Jesus of Nazareth "stooped".

Again, think "humilty."

Can't you imagine Martin Luther

King picking up the kleenex?

Donald Trump might not pick up the Kleenex, but to me he just in it for

himself, and not an alpha. He is more a rich assshole; busy trading insults with Rosie O'Donnel.

:)
DrSmellThis

I can't imagine Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt picking up kleenex like a janitor at the

academy awards.

Image is important for success. That's not to say they're stuck up, but rather confident

with high self esteem.

Just as there are nice guys, alpha males, and jerks, I don't believe we've touched

on the numerous combinations of alpha males. There may be many kinds.

While Jesus may have been an Alpha

male he was also nailed to a cross and left to suffer repeatedly. There are many crazy people in the philippines

who make a ritual of this each year. That doesn't make then Alpha, just crazy and stupid.

Let's talk alpha

male in our society here in north America. To have the gifts of physical appearance, to have confidence, to be

brave, to be humble, to be rich, to be famous, to have woman throwing themselves at you.

That is the real

purpose of this book. "How to become an alpha male". Its all about getting laid and thinking its a piece of cake ,

while staying humble about it and sticking to the motto: "I don't kiss and tell"

HM

[belgareth]

Physical appearance has nothing

to do with being an alpha male, nor does being rich or famous. Those may or may not be results of alpha behavior but

they certainly are not requirements.

[HornyMan]

Physical

appearance has nothing to do with being an alpha male, nor does being rich or famous. Those may or may not be

results of alpha behavior but they certainly are not requirements.
I agree with you Belgareth. Appearance

and money are possible results of alphaness but not necessities as Mother teresa would not be considered an alpha

woman but yet she was so much that she was coined a Saint.

HM

[Guy101]

Horny Man, I will tell you about

the Alpha body language not the beta:

Relax. Do not ever worry.

Breathe through abdomen.

Slow down all

of your movements a notch.

Relax your eyes & eyelids.

Move your head slowly.

Feel comfortable in your

own skin.

Spread out your body.

Feel masculine & powerful.

[koolking1]

"As for alpha male picking

up kleenex I think thats disgusting. Alpha is not the equivalent of janitor. I think alpha would pikc up his own

kleenex but make a note to the management of "maintaneance engineers" to take care of the kleenex"

Alpha

knows that it's something that needs to be done right away. He just does it, gets it over with, takes on the

responsibility of setting an example for his lessers (like yourself) to follow, knows that the image of the company

suffers while it lies there, knows that scheduling the maintenance department to do it is a big waste of time. If

that sounds disgusting to you think about the policeman who is constantly getting vomit from drunks and druggies on

themself and in their patrol car; the nurse who is always taking care of incontinent patients and has to clean them,

the soldier who has to watch their buddy while his guts are pouring out of him after being shot, I could go on and

on.

Picture the alpha walking along the corridor and seeing that kleenex, unbeknownst to him the CEO is

behind him, the CEO has also seen the kleenex and wonders what the alpha is going to do, then guess who gets

promoted soonest.

I have no idea if Depp or Pitt would stoop to pick it up, I don't know either of them

except from their acting. I imagine though that most stars would not pick it up. I also think that most of them

are not all that alpha, they are actors and need direction from the certainly alpha director.

[HornyMan]

"As for

alpha male picking up kleenex I think thats disgusting. Alpha is not the equivalent of janitor. I think alpha would

pikc up his own kleenex but make a note to the management of "maintaneance engineers" to take care of the

kleenex"

Alpha knows that it's something that needs to be done right away. He just does it, gets it over

with, takes on the responsibility of setting an example for his lessers (like yourself) to follow, knows that the

image of the company suffers while it lies there, knows that scheduling the maintenance department to do it is a big

waste of time. If that sounds disgusting to you think about the policeman who is constantly getting vomit from

drunks and druggies on themself and in their patrol car; the nurse who is always taking care of incontinent patients

and has to clean them, the soldier who has to watch their buddy while his guts are pouring out of him after being

shot, I could go on and on.

Picture the alpha walking along the corridor and seeing that kleenex,

unbeknownst to him the CEO is behind him, the CEO has also seen the kleenex and wonders what the alpha is going to

do, then guess who gets promoted soonest.

I have no idea if Depp or Pitt would stoop to pick it up, I

don't know either of them except from their acting. I imagine though that most stars would not pick it up. I also

think that most of them are not all that alpha, they are actors and need direction from the certainly alpha

director.
Koolking1

I am not alpha in the dressing sense. I despise SUITS. Or colours that are not

fashionable.

I would never be able to mix in with a bunch of executives wearing armani suits no matter how

much $ they paid me. It's just not me. The rich look makes me feel out of place.

On the other hand I like

the cool look. Blazer jackets with flashy shirts or plains black or white shirts/tshirts with jeans. Perhaps longer

hair (not too long) , maybe coloured.

I also think that my personality has to match. I have to be cool, yet

confident, charismatic yet not an ass kisser.

When making friends I choose to act out my emotions. When I'm

upset I don't keep it bottled inside I speak it out. With the right tone.

TONALITY. FACIAL EXPRESSIONS.

POSTURE.

Having a melodic voice as opposed to constantly monotone. Have a new expression on my face for

every feeling that goes through it. Having posture suitable for different sitations.

So my question to you

is, is there a COOL mone?

We've seen sex mones, nice guy mones, father figure mones, mone combos. A314 was

said to make ones posture change to being more alpha with respect to how they sit , stand up. Its not just an act

folks I've experienced it with my own eyes.

Is there a mone that makes you act like a laid back cool DEPP

when posing for the camera?

P.S. My obsession with depp is purely due to his acting. He is my idol for 20

years now as an actor.

[koolking1]

no, I

don't think there is one. There are "cool" people though. If you wear the clothes that you said you like to wear

and put on some SOE, people will gravitate towards you. If some wino laying on the street with a brown paper bag

puts on some SOE, I'm afraid it's not going to help him much. There has to be some confirmation between the

visual and the olfactory senses of equalness. Mones enhance what you are if you are what people like already. If

you are already "cool", you can be cooler yet with mones.

[Rbt]

A couple of quick thoughts:

To

me an Alpha Male will dress, groom, and act in a way *true* to himself. Not a dog of "fashion." He would still fit

in with his suuroundings. Appropriate attire for the situation he is in - as if he is "at home," comfortable, and

where he belongs. (A suit where a suit is appropriate. A good shirt and sweater a la Bill Gates where that attire is

appropriate,, etc).

But you have to adapt not only to the situation and your own personality, but your age as

well... "slowing down" your movements will probably work well for a younger person, but as an "old fart" (over 50)

if I start slowing down any more I'll look senile, not alpha....
:hammer:

[koolking1]

I know a very high ranking

diplomat from a Nordic country. He gets his "alpha" on by speaking so softly that you can barely hear him, to me

it's annoying but he does force you to come to him, otherwise you wouldn't be able to hear him at all.

[HornyMan]

no, I

don't think there is one. There are "cool" people though. If you wear the clothes that you said you like to wear

and put on some SOE, people will gravitate towards you. If some wino laying on the street with a brown paper bag

puts on some SOE, I'm afraid it's not going to help him much. There has to be some confirmation between the

visual and the olfactory senses of equalness. Mones enhance what you are if you are what people like already. If

you are already "cool", you can be cooler yet with mones.
Mr KoolKing1:

I understand you have to

dress the part and act the part and verbalize the part. COOL.

Just curious why SOE? Why not another

mone?

HM

[koolking1]

You could substitute any

mone, I just used SOE as an example.

[belgareth]

To me an

Alpha Male will dress, groom, and act in a way *true* to himself. Not a dog of "fashion." He would still fit in with

his suuroundings. Appropriate attire for the situation he is in - as if he is "at home," comfortable, and where he

belongs. (A suit where a suit is appropriate. A good shirt and sweater a la Bill Gates where that attire is

appropriate,, etc).

But you have to adapt not only to the situation and your own personality, but your age as

well... "slowing down" your movements will probably work well for a younger person, but as an "old fart" (over 50)

if I start slowing down any more I'll look senile, not alpha....
:hammer:
In my own case I have several

very nice suits that I wear well. Haven't worn any of them more than a half dozen times altogether. Instead, my

attire is what I choose to wear, very casual and for my personal comfort without the slightest regard for whether

anybody else likes it or not. If I am not wearing jeans or khakis I am wearing shorts and no shoes. And for a shirt

I am almost always wearing a light polo shirt or tee shirt. My shoes usually range from sandals to tennis shoes and

flip flops. On the other hand my movements are quick and precise. Despite missing most of my hair and the balance

being nearly white, most people have a hard time believing I am 51 years old.

Am I an alpha? That's a good

question. I am a leader in many ways and have been most of my life even though I rarely want the job of leading.

Even in my little business I am usually telling people to stop, think and make decisions because I don't want

people who have to be told every time they need to blow their own noses. Any of you who have been here any length of

time know what happens when I get into a confrontation but I never hold a grudge either here or in person.

The

gist of all this babble is that I get hits regularly from females starting as young as 16 and going to as old as 60,

whether I am wearing mones or not. There are more hits while wearing mones but that is the main difference. The

mones add to what I already am. The most important things are to be who and what you are, take good care of yourself

and learn to be self confident. Being a clothes rack or learning all this PUA stuff might help you some but being a

man is going to do a lot more. A point to remember though is that I cannot attest to any results in common venues

like bars or clubs, I avoid such places. Instead, I meet people, men and women both, in my daily life. When I meet

them I am self confident, cheerful, funny and, most importantly, myself. It isn't hard to do and is a lot more fun

than trying to be something you aren't.

[HornyMan]

That's a very insightful post

Belgareth.
HM

[Kveldulf]

Guy

101

I know in the book the author talks about body language and over 20 "killers" men do every day to ruin their

chances with women.

Can you list several of these from the book? What kind of body language mistakes are

there?

Going back to the book in question, I also am interested in just what these might be. Or if

anyone in the more general discussion of "alpha-ness" has ideas on what such "killers" might be?

Thanks!

[idesign]

An alpha

is more often the one who can nurture others, help them out and encourage them with no thought of reward. People

listen to him and follow him willingly without the bluster, bravado and bullshit. He has the courage to follow what

he believes is right by his own standards without worrying whether others approve of his actions.

The asshole

that mistreats his woman or children, or the one who is always loud and boisterous to garner attention, the classic

jerk, is never an alpha. The guy ho treats others with respect while maintaining his own self respect is the alpha.

The guy that gives and gives and allows others to walk all over him is not an alpha either. An alpha sets his

parameters for personal relations and follows those rules because he believes that way.

Pretty bad that we can

only seem to define something through negative examples, isn't it?

You gave some pretty important

positives here, and showing negatives is illustrative.

Building on your example, an alpha leads from inner

qualities, often without even trying. Among his strengths is being able to recognize and encourage strength in

others, without being threatened.

Courage is an interesting choice of words, and is perfect if you understand it

properly. In my view, courage is not fearlessness, but taking positive action despite the natural fears we all

possess.

[belgareth]

Courage

is an interesting choice of words, and is perfect if you understand it properly. In my view, courage is not

fearlessness, but taking positive action despite the natural fears we all possess.
Exactly! It was meant

just as you defined it. Doing something when you have no fear of consequences is not courage. It may be stupidity to

not fear consequences though. Courage is standing up and doing what you need to do despite your knees being made of

rubber, your whole body shakes and all you want to do is run like hell.

[idesign]

It's

interesting because many alpha traits, IMO, are counterintuitive to an immature understanding.

For example, a

really essential trait is humility. All the greats I meet are just really, really modest and humble, while at the

same time acting confidently in their role as steward of a situation. They understand how difficult meaningful

things are, and how insignificant their talents, efforts and accomplishments are in the bigger picture. (Remember

Bruce's Mother Teresa quote? Bruce is the alpha here, and look how humble he is...) If only I knew then what I know

now...

A person is best off just being themselves, and learning to be OK with that. This, however, is a

mouthful to say.

Agree Doc. Humility is one of the "hidden" strengths.

An alpha by nature wields

power by virtue of his innate qualities. I think the judicious restraint of power is the mark of a leader. Without

humility there is no restraint.

Whether you're religious or not, Jesus is the perfect example. Having power,

but recognizing that there is a power above you.

Submission is another counterintuitive word. An alpha will

submit intelligently to those above him, and to influences beyond his control or influence, while working within

those constraints to achieve the best possible result.

In my professional career, its interesting that to the

degree that I defer to other's opinions, when they have good ideas, the more I'm respected and deferred

to.

Just being yourself... :lol: That's such good advice, truly it is, but often so hard to accomplish,

particularly in this culture which secretly demands alphas to lead but loudly proclaims pansies to be the ideal.

[HornyMan]

So exactly

how does an alpha male show humility by his many conquests?
Please ladies can you bend down and suck the holy

bonar?

[DrSmellThis]

Just because the alpha gets

the pick of the species -- partly due to being humble enough to be a gentleman -- doesn't mean he lays everything

he can get his dick into. He has goals, common sense and standards.

I turn down such opportunities fairly

frequently.

But when the opportunity fits in line with what you know you want and need, you go for it in an

assertive, self assured way. In that case, I don't need to be given a hint twice, but will make it all happen

directly.

[DrSmellThis]

Exactly! It was meant just as you defined it. Doing something when you have no fear of

consequences is not courage. It may be stupidity to not fear consequences though. Courage is standing up and doing

what you need to do despite your knees being made of rubber, your whole body shakes and all you want to do is run

like hell.Yep. Courage is one of the most misunderstood virtues, and alpha traits.

There is courage to

face something about yourself, to tell the truth when it's embarrassing, to love when it's hard to, to react with

deeper emotion when it's easier to get into anger. There is the courage required to think thoughts that may force

you to change your view of the world; and the courage to admit when you are wrong.

To have integrity with who

you really are at your core requires enormous courage.

Courage assumes many disguises. It can even take courage

to show weakness.

Only fools equate courage with macho displays, or say, random strength and endurance.

You

young guys should appreciate all the wise older men you have at your service here, Belgareth being one of the better

examples. Listen to him!

[DrSmellThis]

Just

being yourself... :lol: That's such good advice, truly it is, but often so hard to accomplish, particularly in this

culture which secretly demands alphas to lead but loudly proclaims pansies to be the ideal.This culture is

very, very confused about what it wants, and you can trace that to the fall of fatherhood and impoverishment of

masculinity which came along with the industrial revolution and the removal of men from their homes.

In the

bigger picture, it is also a radically changing world. The earth is getting smaller, and animalistic cruelties are

no longer very useful for men in their masculinity, relative to other qualities. The stereotypic macho qualities are

actually quite trivial and peripheral now, and will doubtless continue to become even more so.

True

understanding, emotional, and intellectual qualities become much more important than either "physical alphaness", or

those personal qualities that go along with physical alphaness, with the anachronistic, outmoded pseudo-alphaness;

that are related to it.

Welcome to the future!

Yet people still buy into cheap macho displays as somehow

marking leaders. This is truly nauseating. People should have woken up to this forty years ago, when they instead

assasinated King (the larger society all contributed to the event).

There is still much societal confusion about

what it means to be an alpha or "pansy". People who think John Wayne or Dirty Harry is the ideal for being alpha

have as much to learn as those who think a mild mannered, sensitive man with some effeminate qualities is a pansy,

or cannot be alpha.

What ends up happening is we somehow cycle between macho "jerks" and "wimps" (who lack

integrity, and the many subtle varieties of courage Belgareth and I mentioned) without ever getting that these are

both bullshit. They are both empty shells where a man should be.

Fortunately, I think you can go back to the

basic ideas of fatherhood, of being a steward of the planet and its inhabitants, and find that there is a rich, well

grounded source of untapped masculine ideals.

We need to turn the page on the "old" way (really the twentieth

century way, the confused outgrowth of the industrial revolution, overlaid with wars. Masculinity, though still

outmoded for today, was much richer previously.) of looking at masculinity, strength, leadership, courage, and the

like; and move into a new future.

[Holmes]

I always wanted an Alpha Male, but

I could never find a dealership.

Are parts expensive these days?

[idesign]

So

exactly how does an alpha male show humility by his many conquests?
Please ladies can you bend down and suck the

holy bonar?

As Doc alluded to, I don't think "conquest" is the goal of an alpha. Accomplishment might

be a better word. Thinking beyond immediate gratification and considering longer term benefits for everyone

involved, etc. Gegogi touched on this point as well in a recent thread.

Any skilled PUA can "conquer" a woman,

but that is nowhere near the definition of an alpha male.

This comment might raise some eyebrows, or even offend

some, but IMO I think PUA methods are kind of antithetical to alpha behavior.

Think about it... a PUA is acting,

much like your example of Johnny Depp. Actors play a role which have nothing to do with who they are personally.

When the bars close and the cameras stop rolling you have to be yourself.

That's why Doc and many others here

constantly encourage personal development.

I hope this makes sense.

[idesign]

I always

wanted an Alpha Male, but I could never find a dealership.

Are parts expensive these days?

Pretty

expensive, but they're having a sale two threads down.

Don't trade-in your old model, its more reliable. :)

[DrSmellThis]

I always

wanted an Alpha Male, but I could never find a dealership.

Are parts expensive these days?Didn't Bond

drive one of those?

[belgareth]

In my opinion, an alpha in the

animal kingdom is born, not trained to be so. It may or may not be different in the human world but there are

certain traits I look for with young animals that help me determine their future social status. Watch a litter of

puppies for a while, you'll see one that could be called the trouble-maker. It's the one sneaking up on others and

starting the rough games or hiding around the corner to surprise another or the one grabbing your shoe and growling

at it while it tries to drag it away. In short, it is the active one with the personality and intelligence that

almost always grows up to be the alpha of any group. Not always the biggest, fastest or strongest and not always the

smallest, slowest or weakest. That has almost nothing to do with it. In short, you could say the alpha is the one

most vitally alive.

Over the last couple weeks I've been trying to apply that to humans in kind of a snapshot

of their current behavior to define or select a human alpha. A few things I have come to believe are alpha traits in

humans.
1. The alpha is the doer. You will not find him or her sitting and waiting for others. They will be the one

to start calling people to instigate a trip to the lake or a night out.
2. Alphas are rarely passive about

anything. They pride themselves on accomplishment, not for anybody else's approval but for themselves.
3. You'll

never find an alpha that is a couch potato or 'just hanging out waiting for something to happen'. They make things

happen.
4. An aplha take good care of themselves, both mentally and physically. You'll find a lot of them at the

gym but they aren't going to be the ones with the huge, showy muscles. They'll be the one that is in good shape

and quietly working to stay that way.
5. You'll almost never find an alpha in a bar amongst a loud and obnoxious

group.
6. You will never hear an alpha putting somebody down behind their back.
7. An alpha does not start

confrontations but rarely backs off when attacked.
8. An alpha will not tell you 'It's not my fault' or try to

place blame on somebody else.
9. Alphas do not brag or otherwise try to make themselves look good. They know what

they are.

There is probably a lot more but that's a start.

[idesign]

In my

opinion, an alpha in the animal kingdom is born, not trained to be so.

In short, you could say the alpha is the

one most vitally alive.



That last statement is excellent. Vitally alive, intellectually engaged,

emotionally stable, personally compassionate, professionally innovative and egotistically restrained.

Also agree

that alpha's are born, not trained. You can't teach inner "being".

That's not to say that a person can't

emulate the good qualities they observe in an alpha, to their great benefit. In fact, I think a real alpha will

naturally inspire such emulation.

Good stuff Bel.

[idesign]

This

culture is very, very confused about what it wants, and you can trace that to the fall of fatherhood and

impoverishment of masculinity which came along with the industrial revolution and the removal of men from their

homes.

In the bigger picture, it is also a radically changing world. The earth is getting smaller, and

animalistic cruelties are no longer very useful for men in their masculinity, relative to other qualities. The

stereotypic macho qualities are actually quite trivial and peripheral now, and will doubtless continue to become

even more so.

True understanding, emotional, and intellectual qualities become much more important than either

"physical alphaness", or those personal qualities that go along with physical alphaness, with the anachronistic,

outmoded pseudo-alphaness; that are related to it.

Welcome to the future!

Yet people still buy into cheap

macho displays as somehow marking leaders. This is truly nauseating. People should have woken up to this forty years

ago, when they instead assasinated King (the larger society all contributed to the event).

There is still much

societal confusion about what it means to be an alpha or "pansy". People who think John Wayne or Dirty Harry is the

ideal for being alpha have as much to learn as those who think a mild mannered, sensitive man with some effeminate

qualities is a pansy, or cannot be alpha.

What ends up happening is we somehow cycle between macho "jerks" and

"wimps" (who lack integrity, and the many subtle varieties of courage Belgareth and I mentioned) without ever

getting that these are both bullshit. They are both empty shells where a man should be.

Fortunately, I think you

can go back to the basic ideas of fatherhood, of being a steward of the planet and its inhabitants, and find that

there is a rich, well grounded source of untapped masculine ideals.

We need to turn the page on the "old" way

(really the twentieth century way, the confused outgrowth of the industrial revolution, overlaid with wars.

Masculinity, though still outmoded for today, was much richer previously.) of looking at masculinity, strength,

leadership, courage, and the like; and move into a new future.

I like your example of fatherhood as

embodying a potential alpha ideal. In no other role is a man compelled to exhibit the perfect balance of strength

and compassion. Its the sturdiness of masculinity and the weakness of vulnerability. Which reminds me, an alpha

must be capable of love, which presupposes vulnerability.

Dirty Harry is a wimp, a poseur hiding his masculinity

in fear of himself. Mel Gibson's character in the first Lethal Weapon was pretty good.

Stewardship is a good

word, its opposed to "ownership", which is a cheap macho word in the context of this discussion. Those entrusted to

our care, whether at home or at work, deserve nothing less than a comprehensive man.

I think the richer idea of

masculinity you speak of is not lost, but becoming extinct quite rapidly. Today's culture denigrates any form of

masculinity in a knee-jerk reaction to the worst examples of past abuses. Not wholly undeserved perhaps, but a

dangerous trend, and completely irresponsible.

The good news is that a true alpha will see through the fog and

patiently wade through the nonsense to do what he needs to do, with grace and persistence.

[belgareth]

The good

news is that a true alpha will see through the fog and patiently wade through the nonsense to do what he needs to

do, with grace and persistence.
'Nuff said. Couldn't agree more.

[koolking1]

"Also agree that alpha's

are born, not trained. You can't teach inner "being"."

I can't agree with that one iota. Look at Tiger

Woods, how would one know that he was born an alpha male? His father gave him some serious training when he was a

toddler, I can't say for sure he would be where he is today with or without that training but I suspect it's part

of his makeup. Animals are born and then have a very limited capacity to learn. We humans have almost unlimited

capacity to learn.

[belgareth]

I don't know either way but do

believe that, as I said, being an alpha is not a black or white proposition. Instead, there are many variations.

Perhaps some of the traits are inborn and some are not. Or perhaps training brings up that which is already a part

of us? I have seen people try to become an alpha and fail miserably and I have seen those who have no clue what they

do yet they do it as if born to lead.

[koolking1]

"I have seen people try to

become an alpha and fail miserably"

Because they didn't have the right leadership in their developing stages

or decided to ignore it if they did I suspect.

[belgareth]

Not necessarily. Some had the

same leadership I had.

[idesign]

I

can't agree with that one iota. Look at Tiger Woods, how would one know that he was born an alpha male? His

father gave him some serious training when he was a toddler, I can't say for sure he would be where he is today

with or without that training but I suspect it's part of his makeup. Animals are born and then have a very limited

capacity to learn. We humans have almost unlimited capacity to learn.

Good insight KK. I certainly

agree that upraising is hugely important. But I do think you have to be born with some set of qualities to lead. I

also think you can squander those capabilities, or fail to live up to your potential from lack of training or

direction.

Agree with Bel too that its not a black and white affair.

[DrSmellThis]

I'm agree with Bel to the

extent that one is born with certain alpha potentials, which can die on the vine or be realized to whatever

extent.

I'm not sure whether we should equate alpha with leader. Then again, I tend to split hairs. But maybe

one can excel in some ways as a human without actively leading anything. Or maybe a certain situation doesn't allow

for an alpha to even shine. And what of the biblical, "first shall be last and the last shall be first" principle.

Does it have practcal application in this conversation?

What of the genius whose greatness is ignored until long

after his death? Anyway, feel free to ignore my hair splitting.

I like Belgareth's list, and notice that it

sort of mirrors some of Bel's own qualities. :) Again, though, I am reminded of people who excel in some situations

but fail in others, (e.g., Abe Lincoln) achieving in some realms while not in others so much.

[belgareth]

Doc,

It depends on what you

call a leader. I do not consider a politician a leader in the sense of an alpha. Rather more in the description of a

con man or salesman than a true leader. Those true alphas that I have known tend to be leaders more because others

tend to follow them instead of the alpha trying to lead. Very often, those given power in government or business

fear a true alpha and tend to try to get rid of them. In a herd of horses or flock of sheep (appropriate simile?

:rofl: ) the vast majority are followers and if the leader runs off a cliff they will cheerfully follow it.



Just to be clear, I have been trying to make my statements gender neutral because I believe that an alpha can be

either male or female and as our society changes or evolves more and more alpha females are being allowed to emerge.

Not a bad thing at all.

Do you really see those traits in me? I was writing about my perception of others and do

not really regard myself an alpha, more as a lone wolf who tends to go his own way.

[koolking1]

"I do not consider a politician

a leader in the sense of an alpha. Rather more in the description of a con man or salesman than a true

leader."

Laughing here, Look at how Hillary has spun her Bosnia adventure, they have no shame at all,

certainly awful.

It's interesting that this thread started out with some assorted characters but ends up

with the usual folks.

[belgareth]

That's a very good example! My

sister is still mad at me because she supports Hillary and is even working in her campaign. We had a minor

disagreement about it several months ago and she isn't talking to me. I notice that is the attitude of a lot of her

supporters. No discussion! Hillary is the be all of the election and any difference of opinion is herasy. Does that

attitude frighten others as much as it does me?

Ayup, a lot of these do end up this way, just us ol' loudmouths

arguing away to our hearts content. This case is a little different in a way. I think we have done a pretty good job

of starting to define something important and would like to see it defined still more.

[Mtnjim]

Ayup, a lot

of these do end up this way, just us ol' loudmouths arguing away to our hearts content.


And I'm

just enjoying reading the thread.\o/

[DrSmellThis]

Doc,



It depends on what you call a leader. I do not consider a politician a leader in the sense of an alpha. Rather

more in the description of a con man or salesman than a true leader. Those true alphas that I have known tend to be

leaders more because others tend to follow them instead of the alpha trying to lead. Very often, those given power

in government or business fear a true alpha and tend to try to get rid of them. In a herd of horses or flock of

sheep (appropriate simile? :rofl: ) the vast majority are followers and if the leader runs off a cliff they will

cheerfully follow it.

Just to be clear, I have been trying to make my statements gender neutral because I

believe that an alpha can be either male or female and as our society changes or evolves more and more alpha females

are being allowed to emerge. Not a bad thing at all.

Do you really see those traits in me? I was writing about

my perception of others and do not really regard myself an alpha, more as a lone wolf who tends to go his own

way.Bel, from what I know about you those are traits you value and have strived to embody with some success.

Similarly, my own vision of what an alpha is reflects my own values.

I know what you mean about lone wolf. I see

myself as having some of those traits as well, since my own gifts seem to take me outside the mainstream too often

-- almost by definition, it sometimes seems -- to actually lead any given herd of sheep, ducks, hippos, or whatever.

When people try to follow me, which they often have done over the years, they can get in a bit of trouble with

powers that be. Even when people in power follow me they get in trouble with still greater powers. Then they end up

being sort of lone wolves themselves. That is not always the case, however; and maybe I'm not seeing it clearly.

But even the music I write is decidedly outside the mainstream; just as my vision of psychology and philosophy is

radical, etc, etc.. There is no way for it to be different, because I'd want to be somewhat true to myself.

The

good part of that is that necessary changes sometimes get made in systems along the way; though you can be sure I'm

not getting the credit. :) I have lots of examples where I got in trouble for taking a stand, and then the system

changed to precisely reflect my own position. Yet the perception remains that I was causing trouble by taking the

original stand that they now have written into theiir policies. It ain't about being right, folks.

I have,

however, many times I'm afraid; been the guy who probably (unfortunately) intimidates his "superiors", and who has

gotten in trouble with my mouth, ideas, vision, and sense of ethics, which are not always identical to those who are

in charge. Eventually, I get tired of being at odds with a corrupt or nonsensical system, and go my own way. It's

either that or sacrifice myself to some cause, which I have also done, in no trivial way. Again, when I don't

intimidate my superiors, they often find themselves following me, bucking the system, and then eventually joining

the wolf pack.

I'm not saying I'm an alpha male (too many flaws), though I think I have some few traits, and

some traits that don't always fit too well in typical situations. But I agree with you that someone who rises to

the top in society is not necessarily what I would call alpha.

"Disintegrating integrity" is one of the biggest

reasons. You have to compromise yourself so much in becoming a political leader, corporate leader, or leader of

almost any other conventional system, eventually you have to ask what is left. I think the true successful alpha

leaders just almost sort of find themselves in that role by being true to who they are. Then they kind of get lucky

in that they fit into the situation and times. The world is ripe for them.

But perhaps there are other kinds of

alphas that are essentially misfits. That's not to say the women (or men, if you're balancing the discussion)

don't still find themselves attracted to them.

And perhaps there are alphas who are just masters of their

little domains and caves, and don't need to be anything "more". Lets hear it for all you good friends, dads, moms,

daughters, sons, brothers and sisters!

I agree 100% that "alpha" is gender neutral. I want to make it clear

that I was deliberately focusing on the male version because that was the original topic of conversation; and also

because I do believe that masculine ideals are important to discuss, given their confusing and dysfunctional recent

history. Maybe we should start a thread over on the female side about it and get out of the way.

[belgareth]

Some of those are traits I try

to embody and am sometimes successful at. Nonetheless, I am not what I'd truly call an alpha because much of what I

am is the result of one form of teaching or another rather than an integral part of the basic me. I am also very

short on tolerance at times and find myself having quiet thoughts about the interesting colors some people would

turn if I were to strangle them. :lol:

The situations you describe above are pretty much why I left the

corporate world and struck out on my own. After my last promotion I worked for a VP that was a very small man in a

big job. Certain things he expected of me made me want to vomit, or at least to go take a very long shower to wash

the filth off myself. The small business world allows me to live by my standards and avoid those who expect me to

compromise them. Ok, arguably that is an alpha trait but only one of many potential traits.

Dealing with small

business people is fun and interesting because a large proportion are leaders and cannot be dominated. But they have

also learned that they have to treat other businesspeople as peers rather than subordinates. The successful ones are

a proud bunch and a surprising number of them are kind, good hearted people. It's very unlike the backbiting

opportunistic behavior so common in the world of big business.

While tangental, that really isn't a true

digression from the topic. I am postulating that if you were to do a sampling you would find far more, both

numerically and as a percentage of the whole, of the alpha types in small business environments than you will in the

corporate world. The reason is that the corproate world requires you to set aside some part of your ability to think

and act independently in order to get along. That results in a modification of the basic Darwinian rules. Instead of

the strongest, most productive surviving it allows the weaker but more vicous to not only survive but to thrive. But

the vicious generally recognize that the true leaders have no use for them and should be feared as competition. As a

result, the strong, well principled ones are forced out of the corporate hierarchy in many cases or at least are

limited to subservient positions. There are exceptions, of course but I am speaking in generalizations.

[idesign]

My own experience echos you

guys.

My stint in the corporate world followed a pattern. I was given fast promotions and rose meteorically

until reaching a position where ability was less important than politics.

Like Doc I bucked the system from

within, with some success, but soon realized that a huge effort was needed to make such small differences. To the

extent my ideas were accepted, there was a pack of hyenas figuring out ways to undermine those ideas to their

perceived benefit. So you end up with a strategy for advancement and one for protection. On the face of it that

could be a good place for an alpha, and some do succeed there of course. But not me brotha', I left for the green

grass of home, and self-employment.

As Bel said, those who rise above their abilities attack superior abilities,

and, as Doc said, ethics and integrity are the first casualties.

Its been interesting thinking about Doc's

earlier comments about masculinity post-industrial revolution set against Bel's ideas about small business

owners.

Pre-industrial culture encouraged and trained alpha-ness, by virtue of necessity. Men needed to be

alphas to "govern" their world. They had a farm or small industry, family, seasonal planning, commerce, critical

emergencies of every stripe to managed, complete lack of gov't subsidies :) etc etc. Because each man understood

the scope of his responsibility he understood and appreciated others who had similar responsibilities and ruled

their own "worlds". An alpha's respect for another alpha, or any man (or especially women) for that matter, was a

Gentleman's agreement to behave in such a way that you deserved their respect as well.

Fast forward through

industrialization and into the above mentioned corporatization of our great land. Keep in mind that gov't

employdom is worse, at least you can be fired from a corporation for something other than "failure to have a

pulse".

Its no small wonder that America, the country of alpha beginnings, is built primarily on small business.

The sense of "family" is pervasive among many of these businesses, and though the hours are long and hard at times,

there is an involvement of family and community. Its close to home.

Doing business with other business owners is

mostly a pleasure, with a few exceptions of course. People who understand the sacrifice, hard work, personal

vulnerability and accomplishment of building something.

In an attempt to tie this sloppy post together, there is

a way in which an alpha thrives on responsibility, challenge and accomplishment, which is difficult to achieve in

settings where individuals are a commodity. If you replace the family, individualism is lost.

Edit: Winding

down from a trip and washing out the road-rage, I re-read parts of this thread and it suddenly occurred to me that

the character Atticus Finch is an alpha worthy of emulation. He was Gregory Peck's role in "To Kill a

Mockingbird". He won't seem like an alpha to some, but I've watched that movie probably a dozen times since early

age, and have learned a lot from his unassuming way of taking an unpopular position, and standing in fire with grace

and uncompromised strength. He had the respect of his children, his peers and his community, and the wisdom to

treat those who were "beneath" him with the same respect. I'd love to hear from anyone who's seen this movie and

has any thoughts relative to the subject.

BTW, a great, great movie on its own, esp if you grew up in the

south. To this day, I still get warm chills when Atticus introduces "Boo" Radley to Scout. Also a great novel by

Harper Lee.

[DrSmellThis]

Great posts by all you guys.

I'm still too busy thinking to reply. I love the small business connection.

[belgareth]

Oh, I bucked the system from

the inside too. It was always a fight to think ahead rather than to act in a knee jerk fashion or to tell them the

truth rather than to say what they wanted to hear or to do the right thing instead of the convienent one. The VP I

worked for was perfectly capable of his job, in a technical sense. He was very bright and well educated. It was his

beliefs in right and wrong and his ego, or maybe fear, that got in his way. As you said, Greg, politics were more

important to him. He surrounded himself with supplicants that would never buck him or truly disagree.

I think

you are mixing independence and self reliance, both alpha traits, with a true alpha. I agree completely that those

traits made this country but I do not agree that they were mostly alpha types. Many were outcasts and loners and

others were just sick of being beaten down by the system. At the least, they had courage to do instead of waiting

for somebody to do for them. It's a shame that other than our small business world there is no real legal outlet in

this country for that type person any longer.

[DrSmellThis]

Yep, it sucks there aren't

more outlets for bright, creative, sensitive, and/or emotionally mature critical thinkers. :frustrate

Integrity

tends to be more important for those types. Being hypocritical feels so painful. Being hypocritical, whoring oneself

out, however you want to think of it -- doesn't seem to feel painful for everyone.

Maybe that's a dark side

of natural selection. They rationalize that whoring oneself out in various ways is worth it if you can get somewhere

and do a lot more good than you could otherwise. They feel they have their priorities in the right place, and are

just being pragmatic. It could be a seductive thought. Could this rationalization be an alpha trait? Might we get to

heaven and find that God is the ultimate politician? If so, dare we prefer the other place?

[belgareth]

The biggest problem with that

idea is that once they've sold their soul, it's sold. By time they get to a place where they can do some good they

are already bought and paid for, they are beholden to their master's will instead of the greater good.

[DrSmellThis]

And the politician will reply,

"Nuh uh; no I didn't! Look at all the good we're doing, Why this week we've cut taxes, grew the economy, defeated

the axes of evil, fed the poor and educated our children!"

And you say, "no, you are stealing our money for

nothing. Nothing you do has worked."

"Nuh uh, everything has worked".

"Are not!" "Are too!"

And so the

debate rages on, over the centuries. The public, yawns and returns to their TV shows. The rapidly shrinking middle

and lower middle class pop open a beer. The increasing numbers of rich who get richer support the status quo, and

the swelling ranks of the newly poor lose their voice altogether in the chaos. The politicians at the top are set

for life, with their corporate buddies. By their fuzzy standards they are godlike alphas, thank you very much.



We can only hope the God of Genetic Mutation didn't notice, and isn't creating humanity anew in the

Politician's/Corporatist's image; by virtue of the selfish, cancerous, narcissstic "death gene" that threatens to

program humanity to defeat itself. (Feel free to ignore my cynicism and return the thread to a more constructive

place.)

[idesign]

I

think you are mixing independence and self reliance, both alpha traits, with a true alpha. I agree completely that

those traits made this country but I do not agree that they were mostly alpha types. Many were outcasts and loners

and others were just sick of being beaten down by the system. At the least, they had courage to do instead of

waiting for somebody to do for them. It's a shame that other than our small business world there is no real legal

outlet in this country for that type person any longer.

Yes, on re-reading my post I can see how that

came across, and you're mostly right.

This might be one of those non-black-and-white alpha-by-degrees things.

A man (in them there days) had to exhibit the strong capabilities and characteristics of an alpha just to do what he

was doing, and to survive.

Sure, many (perhaps most) were certainly not alphas, but I think there was a higher

probablility of being an alpha in the circumstances. Also, and this is mostly what I had in mind, but didn't

express at all well, I think our early nation attracted and produced a percentage far greater that we see now. Of

course that's completely non-objective.

I think the next generation has a lot of potential, despite cultural

waywardness. There should be a cycle which swings back toward rationality and critical thinking. That's another

subject though.

I think I'm just splitting hairs here.

I do agree with Doc that an alpha can be a loner,

misfit, etc. Same for an alpha finding his outlet in a creative area.

[Mtnjim]

Sadly, I think most "Alphas" of the

current and future generations have been wiped out by being raised by single moms, female teachers and Political

Correctness.:frustrate

Such a shame, because now we'll see wannabes trying to emulate "Alpha" in all the wrong

ways.

[idesign]

We

can only hope the God of Genetic Mutation didn't notice, and isn't creating humanity anew in the

Politician's/Corporatist's image; by virtue of the selfish, cancerous, narcissstic "death gene" that threatens to

program humanity to defeat itself. (Feel free to ignore my cynicism and return the thread to a more constructive

place.)

I love it when you talk like that! :wub: Insightful, articulate and creatively threading

together a broad spectrum of our existential journey. Just to be sure about it, I'm very serious when I say that,

and you do it often.

I do disagree with you though. Not in the observed realities which we share (and often

agree upon), and their effects, rather in the reasons for the decline.

In my view, the decline began in Eden, and

the "selfish, cancerous, narcissstic "death gene"" is itself fallen man. Mankind is already programmed to defeat

itself, as can be observed through history, and with increased rapidity as history advances.

You'll recognize

this thinking as being distinctly Christian in its viewpoint. Not to worry, I can still think and speak rationally.

;)

Good point, let's get back to the topic.

Your question about hypocrisy is interesting in that it begs the

question "can an alpha have a serious character flaw"? If so, what constitutes character?

I agree with Bel,

hypocrisy is fundamental dishonesty, and an alpha would not lie from within.

[DrSmellThis]

All cynicism aside, to me

integrity is the key to ethics, purpose, and living well.

People can argue morality all they want, but no

matter their view on morality, they can't sensibly argue that they shouldn't strive to be true to themselves, to

their more central intentions, given their grasp of reality. This is integrity.

That is because those are the

minimum conditions for not being self defeating; or for not being full of nonsense; no matter your philosophy or

morality. No one wants to defeat themselves, at least as a central, fundamental desire. No one wants to live a live

where their thoughts and actions don't and can't make sense to themselves. That is a big reason why psychotic

people suffer so much.

No one can be alpha without integrity, in my view. If there was a central alpha trait,

that would be it.

This is why I tell young people to be themselves, etc.

[DrSmellThis]

I do

disagree with you though. Not in the observed realities which we share (and often agree upon), and their effects,

rather in the reasons for the decline.
In my view, the decline began in Eden, and the "selfish, cancerous,

narcissstic "death gene"" is itself fallen man. Mankind is already programmed to defeat itself, as can be observed

through history, and with increased rapidity as history advances.

You'll recognize this thinking as being

distinctly Christian in its viewpoint. If man bit the apple, man already had the potential programmed into

him to desire things "'better' than the way they naturally are". This seems to be the most basic meaning of

"knowledge" of "good" and "evil," (which to me are human constructs, as are all religious thoughts; but that is

certainly not a traditional Christian or religious idea.) or the fall of man. But why wouldn't man destroy himself

at some time dictated by nature? Are we that arrogant to presume that our existence on the planet is somehow more

necessary in the cosmic scheme than is any other fleeting, transient life form, of which there are millions? Species

come and go. Who are we to say that is either "good" or "bad", whatever those words mean? I sure as heck don't have

the answers.

I'm not even sure the "fall" of man is a bad thing. Maybe we need to fall harder and farther.

Maybe that's the point of being human instead of something else. Who knows?

If one was a "strict Christian",

for lack of a better term, one would doubtless think of this in terms of the Apocalypse. Some strains of protestant

Christianity think of man as fundamentally flawed to the point of basic visciousness, such that only "Grace" saves

him from the otherwise well deserved unimaginable flames of everlasting Hell. Parents often have used to use this

belief to justify "beating some sense into" their "fundamentally evil" children. After all, "strong measures" are

required when you are dealing with fundamentally, fatally flawed humanity; trying to change it into something it is

not by "nature". This belief also fundamentally pits mankind against the forces of nature; and therefore against the

planet. Guess what all that leads to? Hell, some fundamentalist Christians just skip right to the "Bring on the

Rapture!" attitude. They are really embodying that good ol' death gene.

I personally would never want to base

my view of the cosmos on any religious dogma, because if many folks do this, then you are in fact left with a planet

of warring dogmas, all of which are -- goddammit -- based on the "will and word of God"; and all of which evoke

absolutist allegiance to the point of one kind of mutual destruction or another. Religious dogma, to the degree

taken seriously, is as it turns out, self defeating and destructive for humanity.

But hey, I'm choosing a

constructive point of view, just because I can't know to choose any other way with any kind of relative certainty.

I'm admitting what I don't and can never know, by virtue of my humanity. We can only know what we know in a

concrete sense of day to day living, and can only act on what we are capable of perceiving. I'm therefore holding

out hope that humanity can create itself according to its common values of everyday living, and not be fundamentally

destined for failure and oblivion.

For my taste, religions -- all of them -- claim to know too much of what they

cannot know; by virtue of their humanity; with a little too much certainty. That would be fine if these beliefs

werent employed with some kind of force or another (e.g., "moral authority", rules that people must folllow; to pick

some more benign but not harmless examples) in relations with other humans. Either way, religion itself is sin, and

a "deadly sin" at that ("pride" as applied to our own concepts). This renders it fundamentally nonsensical, at least

in the countless forms I have encountered.

This is not to say that everyone who goes to church or utilizes

religion as a tool in their practical living is necessarily guilty of the same sins that their Religions themselves

embody. I was raised Catholic, and can tell you a lot of people who go to church and call themselves Catholic for

whatever reasons don't believe half of what they are "supposed to". Maybe they use it just to keep out of trouble

on Sunday, or be with their communities, and don't take their dogma seriously. For me, integrity becomes an issue,

and a painful one, when I try to go back to church and do all that stuff.

Its funny that Jesus himself, at least

in the 4 "Canonical" (currently politically accepted by the religious power structures that be on earth) Gospels,

(Footnote: There are at least 40 known, very different, often contradictory gospels, held as sacred by the earliest

known Christians, such as the Gospels of Mary, Judas, and Thomas. The politicians that run our "Christian" religions

consider all but an arbitrary four of them to be blasphemy, even though they are the fundamental existing accounts

of the historic Jesus.) never even talked about many of the things people who call themselves Christians hold as

universally true by virtue of their "Christianity" being True. Really the stuff about Eden and even most of the

scriptures known as the "bible" has nothing to do with Christianity per se, since Islam and Judaism, among

other religions, also contain much or most of this. For example, most religions in the history of the planet have

some account of the fall of man, or some kind of "Eden" type of situation.

[belgareth]

Despite being raised in the

Mormon church, or maybe because of it, I am not religious in the classical sense. The hypocrisy of the christian

faiths tends to turn my stomach and I'll have no part in their beliefs.

Rather than take part in the guilt and

fault ridden beliefs of every church I have looked into, I choose to believe the average human being is good at

their core and would rather be left to live their life in peace. There always will be bad people, whether a product

of a sick mind or a lousy upbringing is academic and not really a concern for this discussion. The main thrust is

that people do not need guilt and the threat of burning sulfer pits to live well. Instead, they need encouragement

and opportunity. Penal controls of any sort fail eventually and you can demonstrate that by looking at the abundant

law and order in this country or at all the once a week christians who will cheerfully cut your throat the other six

days of the week.

Basically, while believing that humans are good, or at least not evil, I also recognize the

basic lazyness of all creatures. The preditor would much rather lay in the sun than chase prey. The grazer would

much rather find a field of tall green grass than to search out the rare blade of grass in hardscrabble. Call it a

form of conservation of energy. The basic human would rather pick up fruit off the ground than climb the tree to

find better fruit. Even better if somebody will take it away from one animal and give it to you. The aspiring to

better things, a full belly, an easier way to carry your haul back to the cave or a safer way to kill that big

striped thing grazing in the field has always been the core of invention. Why? Because it gives you more time to sit

in the sun or sleep. Only the rare one, the very few, have ever dreamed of bigger and better ways to do things and

it was always intended to make life easier in one way or another.

Therein lies the downfall of this society.

There are no longer guidelines or responsibility, no consequences and no good examples. Today's heroes are sports

stars and drug dealers. Consequences can actually be preferable to the labor of getting off your butt and

accomplishing something. You'll always be able to have food, your car and TV and get laid because our society will

make sure of it.

Personally, I do not believe in welfare per se. I while back I wrote a long desertation

describing what I view as an alternative to welfare. It may be viewed as unfair and a violation of a person's civil

rights but I feel that forcing others to pay huge percentages of their hard earned money to support those that

refuse to be productive is a far greater violation of civil rights. Bottom line is that while we have a

responsibility to help those in need, we do not have an obligation to support them forever or provide anything

beyond basic needs, which could be done in a barracks far more cheaply and with better accountability than how we do

it now.

I do not believe there is any such thing as cruel and unusual punishments either. If you know the laws

and the consequences of breaking the laws but choose of your own free will to break those laws, you are agreeing to

suffer any and all consequences outlined in the laws. If that means you are to be publicly beheaded for dealing

drugs to children, it was your choice to put yourself in that position and that's all there is too it. Sounds

cruel, right? Not to me it doesn't. What sounds cruel is allowing criminals to walk free, repeating time and again

these heinious crimes against others.

I do not believe in the dumbing down of the average citizen, it is a crime

to lower the bar and accept mediocrity from the school systems instead of teaching the value of education starting

in preschool.

In short, I believe in education, opportunity and consequences for the choices you make in life.

And I believe the lack of those things, the ability to freely lay in the sun while others collect fruit to be given

to you are the basics of the degradation of our society. The alphas are still there but very often suppressed by a

society that fears them. But the average person is mostly interested in getting what they can as easily as possible

and we not only allow it, we encourage it.

[Rbt]

A) "Religion" is that set of rules

and guidelines one choses to use to base the way they run their life. My definition. "Organized" religions have a

"set" of pre-made rules to follow. You have the option, if you are "alpha" enough, to pick and chose those rules you

wish to use or use/create your own. [Sing it Frank... "I did it Myyyyy Wayyyyy.....]
:lol:

B) Except for the

above reference to "apha" males and freedom of choice and freedom from religion ("organized" religion usually) (said

freedoms being something the Republicans seem to be against with their meddling with the First Ammendment- there,

now I've managed to work in BOTH religion And politics into this post...)
:hammer:

We are getting a bit off

original topic...

[idesign]

No one can be alpha without integrity, in my view. If there was a central alpha trait, that would be it.

This

is why I tell young people to be themselves, etc.

You can't disagree with this, and I think integrity

has many dimensions.

Integrity demands that you "be yourself", and also have within yourself an adherence to a

code of character and behavior.

I think also that the word carries a connotation that one has the interests of

others in mind as you act.

In a behavioral aspect, I think integrity and responsibility can have a cause and

effect relationship.

That's to say, if a man (alpha) has real integrity, then his personal and professional

relationships will not be self-centered, but have a view, and care for the "whole".

I think that to the extent

that a man (alpha) is secure in himself (with integrity), he will see and act beyond himself.

Mirriam-Webster

defines it as:
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values :

incorruptibility (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incorruptibility)
2 :

an unimpaired condition : soundness (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soundness)

3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided :

completeness (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/completeness) synonyms see

honesty (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/honesty)

[idesign]

A) "Religion"

is that set of rules and guidelines one choses to use to base the way they run their life. My definition.

"Organized" religions have a "set" of pre-made rules to follow. You have the option, if you are "alpha" enough, to

pick and chose those rules you wish to use or use/create your own. [Sing it Frank... "I did it Myyyyy

Wayyyyy.....]
:lol:

B) Except for the above reference to "apha" males and freedom of choice and freedom from

religion ("organized" religion usually) (said freedoms being something the Republicans seem to be against with their

meddling with the First Ammendment- there, now I've managed to work in BOTH religion And politics into this

post...)
:hammer:

We are getting a bit off original topic...

:rofl:You talked about religion and

politics in one post! You'll be banned! Emily Post once posted that any given post should not post such

potentially offensive subjects.

:lol::lol::lol:.... like any of us follow the rules...

Screw Emily, what

does she know anyway?? Though its a good idea to follow Rbt's advice and stick to the thread.

I'll have to do

some thinking about what you guys have posted vis religion, which is a word I'm not particularly fond of in certain

respects.

I think I will say though that a man's faith, intelligence and alpha-ness can be integral, but

fundamentally unrelated.

[belgareth]

I think I

will say though that a man's faith, intelligence and alpha-ness can be integral, but fundamentally

unrelated.
Probably true. It doesn't really change the face of religion but any religion has true

practitioners who behave as they should. Intelligence does not really figure into religious beliefs. The two are

seperate things.

[belgareth]

A) "Religion"

is that set of rules and guidelines one choses to use to base the way they run their life. My definition.

"Organized" religions have a "set" of pre-made rules to follow. You have the option, if you are "alpha" enough, to

pick and chose those rules you wish to use or use/create your own. [Sing it Frank... "I did it Myyyyy

Wayyyyy.....]
:lol:

B) Except for the above reference to "apha" males and freedom of choice and freedom from

religion ("organized" religion usually) (said freedoms being something the Republicans seem to be against with their

meddling with the First Ammendment- there, now I've managed to work in BOTH religion And politics into this

post...)
:hammer:

We are getting a bit off original topic...
As I said, not in a classical sense.



Not really all that far off topic. Amazing the variables and side issues that this has brought up though.

[DrSmellThis]

You

can't disagree with this, and I think integrity has many dimensions.

Integrity demands that you "be yourself",

and also have within yourself an adherence to a code of character and behavior.

I think also that the word

carries a connotation that one has the interests of others in mind as you act.

In a behavioral aspect, I think

integrity and responsibility can have a cause and effect relationship.

That's to say, if a man (alpha) has real

integrity, then his personal and professional relationships will not be self-centered, but have a view, and care for

the "whole".

I think that to the extent that a man (alpha) is secure in himself (with integrity), he will see

and act beyond himself.

Mirriam-Webster defines it as:
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral

or artistic values : incorruptibility (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incorruptibility)


2 : an unimpaired condition :

soundness (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soundness) 3 : the quality or state of being

complete or undivided : completeness (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/completeness)

synonyms see honesty (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/honesty)Here I disagree

with Webster, and believe the first definition is really slang, or a corrupted original definition. The

"incorruptability" part is OK, however.

I agree that as it turns out, people with integrity often possess those

other traits you mentioned, such as responsibility and caring for the whole; but not because those other things are

what integrity is at base, or essentially, necessarily. You could argue that integrity implies

responsibility. But I could have great integrity without adhering to any codes, in particular . It is even

misleading for Webster to talk about integrity as having to do with external principles or codes (here you get into

a debate about the function of a dictionary: To give the correct definition versus catalog usage). That is false

integrity, because it begs the question of why one must or should adhere to the codes. Only integrity itself can

answer that "why should I?" question.

In a large sense, my doctoral dissertation was about integrity, a study of

ethics from a psychological and philosophical point of view which took many years. My thesis was reviewed and

supported by one of the three or so prominent moral philosophers in the world (every ethicist has read Alasdair

MacIntyre), and was constructed with some of his guidance; so you'd have to get up pretty early in the morning to

demonstrate me to be full of crap on this topic; which I say only so people know I'm not shooting from the hip, not

to claim authority. ;)

Historically or etymologically, integrity refers more to wholeness, or similar ways of

saying it, like "true to your central self". Modern political/religious culture tacked on the rest.

The problem

with external codes and rules is that there is no firm grounds for them, ultimately. You can always stubbornly and

quite reasonably ask "why should I?" with those.

The same cannot be said for true integrity. Integrity,

when understood in a holistic way, is really the only firm ground on which any morality can stand (even religious

morality, as it turns out. Of course, it would take a while to explain.). It is the grounding for living by any

rules and standards, not the rules and standards themselves. It is based in humanity; indeed, in common humanity.



We are moral, we try to live the best way, because of who we are, not because "morality itself" commands

adherance. (BTW, you could argue the conceptual part of morality itself, the idea of morality, is itself part of the

"fall of man"; trying to do what we have in mind as "good", as opposed to just living like the rest of nature, but

this would take us far afield.)

So a man with integrity might have rules, but those rules are merely in the

service of his integrity, and get their meaning from that integrity. Similarly, if he participates in a religion or

a philosophical movement, even if he tries to "obey God", it is also in service of his integrity, ultimately.



This firm grounding is part of what renders it the ultimate alpha trait. Other virtues, like courage, honesty,

etc, are based in integrity too.

An alpha is extremely strong in his grounding, from thoughts down to actions.

That doesn't mean he's always right or thinks he is, as it is just a way of living life. In every day life,

however, our research suggested that human integrity is a huge, deep and involved process; involving self discovery,

interacting with the world, openness, and self honesty. Research suggests that when people try to do the right thing

or do the best thing, what they are basically doing is living their process of integrity.

Being true to oneself

isn't really a matter of proclaiming "this is what I believe," and stubbornly clinging to that. That is not

integrity but is often arrogance.
Integrity is rather a holistic way of life, a path.

[idesign]

An alpha is extremely strong in his grounding, from thoughts down to actions. That doesn't mean he's always

right or thinks he is, as it is just a way of living life. In every day life, however, our research suggested that

human integrity is a huge, deep and involved process; involving self discovery, interacting with the world,

openness, and self honesty. Research suggests that when people try to do the right thing or do the best thing, what

they are basically doing is living their process of integrity.


I sometimes wish that I could sit in a

bar with you guys with a decent budget and a free weekend. :cheers:

I suppose though that having to write causes

an economy of words and honing of thought which is unique and good these days. I say that because your posts

inspire thinking, examination and re-consideration.

I wish others would interject their ideas. Its not an

exclusive club, and those of us who talk the most may not have the best perspective. Feel free to join in,

anyone.

After all that, I disagree with a couple of things you said above Doc, but the quoted paragraph is just

about perfect in describing the development of an alpha. Even if there is some inherit quality that an alpha has

from birth, the process you described is critical, and ongoing.

I'm still thinking about the rest. Dude, when

you give me those creds, I'd better be on the mark! :)

[DrSmellThis]

I

sometimes wish that I could sit in a bar with you guys with a decent budget and a free weekend. :cheers: ... Even if

there is some inherit quality that an alpha has from birth, the process you described is critical, and

ongoing.Now I'm driving you to drink. Don't ever say I didn't do anything for you. We could discuss

topics like, "Could God mix a drink so strong he could drink himself or herself stupid?"

So if this were a bar,

what would you call it?

I agree, of course, (this is love-scent, after all), that certain aspects of alphaness

are genetic and biological. Everything has biological correlates. Consciousness is bodily. But I'm speaking in

terms of the experience of daily living; as we live out the cinema of our lives.

So yeah, some of the momentary

things in life are givens, they are with us by luck, as Aristotle would put it. For him you had to both live well

and fare well to live a "good" life.

With integrity I'm referring to our direct experience; the reflected upon

phenomena of that experience; and a way of living out that experience: I mean integrity as a theme of a life story,

as lived by somebody; all of what it is for somebody.

It's always better the more people join in. But I

probably drive some folks away with abstract generality. If it weren't for you guys, I'd kill every thread off

:)

[belgareth]

I guess that integrity and

morality would have to be a matter of one's definition. Have you ever wondered what a thief feels about stealing?

Is it wrong to steal or just wrong to get caught or is society way off in their point of view? Perhaps thieves are

true communists and believe everything belongs to everybody? "Imagine no possessions, it's easy if you try" A bit

tongue in cheek, sorry, but do you see the point I am trying to make?

Are we each moral by our own moral

standards? From the statements above it seems clear that morality is not based on society's demands but on one's

internal beliefs. If you do not believe something is wrong, are you acting with integrity when you do that thing?

This is not a question about laws as I believe legal definitions, or even Websters, are unrelated to core morality

in the individual.

[idesign]

Now

I'm driving you to drink. Don't ever say I didn't do anything for you. We could discuss topics like, "Could God

mix a drink so strong he could drink himself or herself stupid?"

Drive me to drink? Someone with larger

breasts and more challenging demands on my brain than even you guys did that long ago. :) Though, needless to say,

the intellectual demands are qualitatively different, only different. :)

God's drinks are beyond us, but

there's no harm in trying. What would you call it? Sex on the Beach is already taken.




So if this were a bar, what would you call it?

Hmmm... Molecular Structure

seems like a good fit. Mose Allison has the theme song ready-made.

"Your molecular structure
is really

something swell,
a high frequency modulated, Jezebel,
thermodynamically gettin' through to me,
Your molecular

structure, oo oo wee"


I agree, of course, (this is love-scent, after all), that

certain aspects of alphaness are genetic and biological. Everything has biological correlates. Consciousness is

bodily. But I'm speaking in terms of the experience of daily living; as we live out the cinema of our lives.



So yeah, some of the momentary things in life are givens, they are with us by luck, as Aristotle would put it. For

him you had to both live well and fare well to live a "good" life.

With integrity I'm referring to our direct

experience; the reflected upon phenomena of that experience; and a way of living out that experience: I mean

integrity as a theme of a life story, as lived by somebody; all of what it is for somebody.

That last

phrase, after the colon, is Gertrude Stein-ish is its simple and elegant way which, to me, is the way an alpha will

live. There is more man than anybody sees, until he's made his mark, then everybody sees. Meanwhile, the man has

just lived.


It's always better the more people join in. But I probably drive some

folks away with abstract generality. If it weren't for you guys, I'd kill every thread off :)

Not

really, there are too many of your posts that prove otherwise. Its only in these open discussion threads where you

can sometimes be difficult to respond to, simply because it would take a major position paper to do it justice. The

same is true for Bel. You guys just put out more than can be handled in a couple of paragraphs.

Its a good thing

of course, and truly educational and thought provoking. I've no complaints whatsoever.

It would, however, be

good to hear from more of the folks out there. I know there are good opinions and thoughts running through the

membership.

[DrSmellThis]

"I guess that integrity and

morality would have to be a matter of one's definition. Have you ever wondered what a thief feels about stealing?

Is it wrong to steal or just wrong to get caught or is society way off in their point of view? Perhaps thieves are

true communists and believe everything belongs to everybody? "Imagine no possessions, it's easy if you try" A bit

tongue in cheek, sorry, but do you see the point I am trying to make?

Are we each moral by our own moral

standards? From the statements above it seems clear that morality is not based on society's demands but on one's

internal beliefs. If you do not believe something is wrong, are you acting with integrity when you do that thing?

This is not a question about laws as I believe legal definitions, or even Websters, are unrelated to core morality

in the individual."

-- Belgareth



All cynicism aside, to me integrity

is the key to ethics, purpose, and living well.

People can argue morality all they want, but no matter their

view on morality, they can't sensibly argue that they shouldn't strive to be true to themselves, to their more

central intentions, given their grasp of reality. This is integrity.

That is because those are the minimum

conditions for not being self defeating; or for not being full of nonsense; no matter your philosophy or morality.

No one wants to defeat themselves, at least as a central, fundamental desire. No one wants to live a live where

their thoughts and actions don't and can't make sense to themselves. That is a big reason why psychotic people

suffer so much.

No one can be alpha without integrity, in my view. If there was a central alpha trait, that

would be it.

This is why I tell young people to be themselves, etc.Idesign, I agree that

Belgareth asks and says things that make you write a thesis in order to reply to them fairly, and wait until you

have the time to do so. Speaking of which: :)

Bel, I guess what I'm suggesting in this thread is,

basically, that alphas are "ethically inclined" people, in my humble opinion; which is to say their lives are about

something one could call "integrity".

Second, the quoted section gives a short summary of what I mean by

"integrity", in terms of the firm grounding that makes it a possible central, essential theme structuring moral

life. This has to do with their most direct, basic and immediate experience of being alive, of living, of life; and

practically speaking, the extent we can access that through our life stories.

As you point out so well, one

might conclude that we are left with an abstract and naked moral truth that everybody should do only what their

beliefs tell them to; perhaps as a result of "thinking whatever their beliefs tell them to think"; or some such

assumption.

One wouldn't have to conclude exactly that, however. And far fewer assumptions would have to be

made if we didnt.

The conscious experience of daily living doesn't necessarily depend on "believing" anything,

since it is preconceptual on the most basic levels. First there is the relatively "unprejudged" (conceptually)

portion of living. In philosophy and psychology, this is called a "phenomenological" point of view, for what its

worth. You get that directly from your own life story in total, not just from one or more "beliefs" (whatever those

are). So that leaves it more open, and the only way anybody can know more is to know more about somebody's life

story, and/or a lot of people's life stories, and for people to understand their own stories better, and tell more

cohesive stories to themselves.

This would be a global, introspective, interactive, and evolving historical

process; in the big picture.

So how do people actually experience making a choice about what to do, when

they try to do the best thing?

To me that's the question, because then we find out how morality happens to work

in every day lives. Then we can compare stories and see if we share anything, and see whether those things are

valid.

I'm not going to assume people in fact do experience choosing "because" of some "belief" or "set of

beliefs", like, say, "stealing is wrong". That would be imposing my own label on something in such a way as to risk

crushing it. Whatever happens for people when they choose is an empirical issue, by definition. Only by listening to

each others' stories can we find that data, or at least the original, most crucial data.

That was the question

asked in our series of studies, and the stories suggested a huge, deep, multifaceted historic theme; involving

something like a circular process from self disovery, to interaction with the world, and back; and trying to be

whole or consistent within that. This type of theme enjoyed consistently strong validity for people. That was just

an initial finding. But when you related that finding to the world of ethics, the original concept of "integrity"

seemed best to fit. There is also a strong philosophical basis for it, going back to the Greeks, and up through

Neitzsche and modernity.

So I'm suggesting that, since that may be how morality actually works for people, or

something consistent with that; that no morality, religion, politics, or idea of alphaness can make sense if it

doesn't dialog with that theme, throughout; inasmuch as that might hold true with replication of such findings in

different settings. There is some evidence that people are going to try to do what the whole of their lives and

their understanding of them suggests would make sense. But trying to do the right thing necessarily involves certain

processes for people, as the evidence suggests; and is more than a static snapshot or lifeless abstraction. If

that's what we're dealing with, we have to accept it and learn more about it.

If we want people to come

together around a morality, a set of standards, or a set of common actions, we would have to find some concrete

commonalities among some people, in their relevant experiences of living. Rather than assume, we'd have to get to

know each other, and ourselves, better and better. Looking back, this was a big reason I liked Idesign's dialogue

with our Russian friend Alex.

Inasmuch as we succeed at that mutual self-understanding, we can hope for

increased success in doing things together which would ultimately seem best across people, rather than just proclaim

as powerfully as possible, "This is what I believe people need!" (or "this is what God thinks people need," or what

people really, really want; etc.) I don't prejudge this kind of project, because everything depends on how it turns

out.

People have to ultimately buy into each others' understandings of each other, practically speaking, in

the same way that our marriages depend on saying things, like, "Honey, am I hearing you say 'X'?". That involves

humans having actual, holistic, substantive relations with each other.

If we're going to do all that, we need

each other in some basic ways. Hell, a sustainable earth population and community might even depend on acknowledging

such fundamental interdependency, beyond what we typically acknowledge about needing each other.



Notwithstanding, there is preliminary evidence supporting the rationality of that kind of humanistic project; and

a shrinking world makes it increasingly practical in terms of access to each others' stories.

Of course, I am

not talking about the biological portion of it all, but there would be no reason we couldn't. Evidence suggests

biology is a factor, though not necessarily the most important one.

Nonetheless, if you get to atypical choice

processes, like stealing, you want to make sure to consider the biology anew, because you might also have atypical

biology, and/or an atypical importance of biology. Biology and the study of life stories go together, because the

more biology we know, the more our stories make sense to us; the deeper, and more valid they will seem to be.



And obviously, we share our basic biologies. So biological discoveries are almost by definition discoveries of

human commonality, even in the case of biological disease, since we share the potential for malaise.

[DrSmellThis]

nm............................

[belgareth]

Thanks, Doc. You did catch

where I was going with that. I had begun to wonder if I had gone too far and lost my audience. Let me digest it for

a bit before I respond.

[belgareth]

We've kind of wandered of

track here, to some degree. We were discussing what makes up an alpha and have gone to comparitive morality. While

part of the same thing they are two different topics, in my eyes. I was trying, with my questions, to point out that

morality is to generalized and non-specific because it is tied to context. Eating people would be seen as a bad

thing in this country but in other times and places would be obligatory in the context. Perhaps a poor comparison

but it does make the point.

Recently I had a conversation with a young girl about sexual morality, yes she was

over 18 and it wasn't about me getting laid. I do not have any interest in robbing cradles. She recently had her

heart broken, as young girls are want to do, and it led into a conversation that has lasted a couple weeks now. It

has gone a long way towards defining my own outlook on morality in sexuality. However, that is not the point of the

thread.

More than anything, I do believe that an alpha is capable of defining their own morality which in turn

acts as a model for others. If the person is not leading and defining roles for others through example is that

person truly an alpha? Or is that person a self determining 'Lone Wolf'?

[idesign]

More

than anything, I do believe that an alpha is capable of defining their own morality which in turn acts as a model

for others. If the person is not leading and defining roles for others through example is that person truly an

alpha? Or is that person a self determining 'Lone Wolf'?

I think an alpha will definitely be "leading

and defining roles for others through example".

I think he may define his own morality inwardly, but outwardly

not much beyond whatever common morality exists in his sphere.

Definition of terms might get in the way again,

but I think an alpha will lead within a set of moral boundaries which he accepts both for their commonly accepted

wisdom, and practical usefulness.

An alpha also needs to work amongst the capabilities and moral sensibilities

of those he leads. If he's too radical, he'll only attract the fringe. If his personal qualities are great

enough - and his vision articulate - he may pull the tide toward himself.

A "lone wolf" really does not engage,

and inspires fear more than leadership.

[idesign]

Idesign, I agree that Belgareth asks and says things that make you write a

thesis in order to reply to them fairly, and wait until you have the time to do so.

Belgareth?!? Mr

Pot, meet Mr Kettle. :lol:


Bel, I guess what I'm suggesting in this thread

is, basically, that alphas are "ethically inclined" people, in my humble opinion; which is to say their lives are

about something one could call "integrity".

This one statement sums up, in my humble opinion also, what I

think is central to an alpha's thinking and behavior (and "being"?). You've stated this before Doc, and it can't

be stressed enough.

I want to reply to more of your post, but need an amateur's handicap. You study this sort

of thing for a living, I draw pictures... give me day or so. :)

.... calling Belgareth challenging... sheesh!

you guys are twins on that one...

[Rbt]

It is my observation that if anyone

wanted to make up a list of "alpha males" on this forum all they would have to do is note who has posted on this

particular thread...

Seems that most all *are* the alpha males of the forum...

(although IMO there are a

few names missing...)

[belgareth]

:rofl:

Your probably right

on both points. Although I expect that every one of them is going to deny it.:LOL:

[belgareth]

I was re-reading his thread and

found many quotes that I felt were appropriate and intersting so was thinking about bringing this thread back to

life. On reading my way through the whole thing again I felt that this could summarize what is real and masculine

and the essense of being the alpha male.


This culture is very, very confused about

what it wants, and you can trace that to the fall of fatherhood and impoverishment of masculinity which came along

with the industrial revolution and the removal of men from their homes.

In the bigger picture, it is also a

radically changing world. The earth is getting smaller, and animalistic cruelties are no longer very useful for men

in their masculinity, relative to other qualities. The stereotypic macho qualities are actually quite trivial and

peripheral now, and will doubtless continue to become even more so.

True understanding, emotional, and

intellectual qualities become much more important than either "physical alphaness", or those personal qualities that

go along with physical alphaness, with the anachronistic, outmoded pseudo-alphaness; that are related to it.



Welcome to the future!

Yet people still buy into cheap macho displays as somehow marking leaders. This is

truly nauseating. People should have woken up to this forty years ago, when they instead assasinated King (the

larger society all contributed to the event).

There is still much societal confusion about what it means to be

an alpha or "pansy". People who think John Wayne or Dirty Harry is the ideal for being alpha have as much to learn

as those who think a mild mannered, sensitive man with some effeminate qualities is a pansy, or cannot be alpha.



What ends up happening is we somehow cycle between macho "jerks" and "wimps" (who lack integrity, and the many

subtle varieties of courage Belgareth and I mentioned) without ever getting that these are both bullshit. They are

both empty shells where a man should be.

Fortunately, I think you can go back to the basic ideas of fatherhood,

of being a steward of the planet and its inhabitants, and find that there is a rich, well grounded source of

untapped masculine ideals.

We need to turn the page on the "old" way (really the twentieth century way, the

confused outgrowth of the industrial revolution, overlaid with wars. Masculinity, though still outmoded for today,

was much richer previously.) of looking at masculinity, strength, leadership, courage, and the like; and move into a

new future.

[jumprunner]

A.

Shouting implies that the particular person who is shouting doesn't feel important enough to be heard and thus has

to resort to "shouting" to be heard.!


Not always true, I remember when I was in the Army, I was a

training (platoon) leader in basic, and this was the norm. You have to distinguish what is an alpha personality and

what is a militant, or paramilitary personality. The military is involved with absolute power, control, and

brainwashing, moreover by bringing out the violent side of people and the warrior personality.

So shouting in

this regard is not an attempt to be heard, it is a power kick and a mechanism for control, ie if I tell someone to

attack, I expect him to go into a violent bloodthirsty rage charging after the target.

Passive reasoning doesnt

work to well in the military, you have to be a psycho to put yourself in a position that is life threatening, not

about being an alpha male but more about developing a psycotic personality, what it takes to get someone to fight

and temporarily forget about fear.

I guess I should say something else about this, this militant personality

sometimes shows up in me and tends to scare women away very quickly, a problem Ive got when talking to women. I dont

know how many times, I could see a girl was interested in me at first sight, then after talking to me everything

goes downhill quickly and they completely lose interest, I am good looking enough but my personality really seems to

turn women off a lot of times.

[andrei30000]

Yeah,your right about the

army thing,Im in the army too and they scream.But thats just an alpha male doing his job,he doesnt act like that

after the job,then hed be a total nutjob.
My seargent screams at me,insults me(hes not allowed but he does it

anyhow) but after the job hes a very cool chill guy.

[andrei30000]

Although,I have a

question.All these traits about what being a alpha is all about.How do we know they'r real.
I guess I'm having

some doubts,because all my friends say a true alpha male is violent,aggresive and a tad bit crazy.Kinda like Mike

Tyson.I like mike tyson,but I think is personality is very weak.They also say an alpha male cheats on his wife and

sleeps with multiple women,thus promiscuous.
I highly doubt they're right.Can anyone tell me anything on the

subject?

[Mtnjim]

You're absolutely right, what your

friends are describing is an asshole, not an alpha male. A true alpha doesn't need to scream and yell, he can give

orders in a cool, calm voice and they'll be carried out.

[andrei30000]

Thank you,i was just

curious a bit.My grandpa always told me that a real man doesnt engage in selfdestructive lifestyle,especially

promiscuity.
Thank you,I didn't know there were other people who shared this mindset.

[idesign]

Read through this thread and

you'll see a lot said about what being an alpha means. While all men have character flaws, seldom will you find a

true alpha behaving in the way your friends describe.

Agree with Jim, bullies ain't alphas.

[belgareth]

I agree with your grandfather,

Jim and ID, men, real alpha men, can be a gentleman and never raise his voice. He doesn't need too. He also

doesn't need to worry about whether others think he is a man or a leader. He goes about living his life in a

fashion that denotes his personal strength and comfort with himself. He isn't a phony and doesn't put on airs. And

a true alpha male rarely sees a need to fight and never to threaten. He also is gentle and protective of others.

[andrei30000]

yes,I guess it's true all

menj have character flaws,Ican always try to fix them though.I can never really be perfect but I can always try to

be a better person then I was yesterday.
Thank you all for replyng,and sorry for my grammar.

[idesign]

yes,I

guess it's true all menj have character flaws,Ican always try to fix them though.I can never really be perfect but

I can always try to be a better person then I was yesterday.
Thank you all for replyng,and sorry for my

grammar.


That's a great attitude which will take you far. :cheers:

[belgareth]

yes,I

guess it's true all menj have character flaws,Ican always try to fix them though.I can never really be perfect but

I can always try to be a better person then I was yesterday.
Thank you all for replyng,and sorry for my

grammar.
That's definately the right point of view. Good luck!

[andrei30000]

Hello again guys,and thank

you for your kind replys.Damm,I have so many questions about what being a man is.Mos t of the time I know deep

inside whats right and whats wrong.But what I keep hearing recently is just ridiculous,so here it is.
Almost

everybody nowdays(that I know) states that only gay people know how to dress and straight guys have no sense in what

to wear.I personally think this is ridiculous,I mean come on,I have to be gay in order to dress good,wtf.
I thought

a real man should always know how to dress.I thought it's mandatory.We also hear this in the media.
What is

everybodys thought on this one?

[Rbt]

Dress the way you feel is most

comfortable and right for you. The only ones in the media who critisize the way men dress are those who want to sell

clothes or stuck-up "fashion experts" without a life of thier own.

:rasp:

[PheroFreak]

Wow, I just read this whole

thread. Lots of good information here, GOLDEN\o/