Androstadienone raw form found

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have seen no used product shop that you spoke of in the forum Bruce.

I have purchased about $185 dollars in the products at love-scent but have not had that great of results yet.
Usually I get intrigued with something, obsess about it and after a month or so forget about it because I have studied so much about it there is nothing else to learn.

I have been reading all there is about Androstadienone. There is quite a controversy. People with different invested interests involved( money ). I read the patent for realm and some research and think that it does need to be tried and not let go as Kohl suggests. I have just ordered a 5 mgm powder form of 4,16-androstadien-3-one from steraloids. They will ship it to a private party if it is not a controlled substance. How should I mix the stuff, with ethanol. I want to hear from Bruce on this. I will post this in the forum.
What mixtures and such. If you do not feel qualified to answer could you find someone with more chemical knowledge than I to help. I don’t know if I’m the first to try this but like I said I am intrigued and have to know. This was an email I sent bruce but I would like feedback from all. Thanks, Thunder

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

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Great Thunder! Someone actually got the -dienone from Steraloids. So, how did you place the order? They gave you no hassle? Does it only come in powdered form, or can they mix it in ethanol for you? I think it\'s about $60 for 5 mgs, right? That\'s in the ballpark of what we\'re paying for pheros here.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I just called and asked procedure. Credit Card billing questions. Oerdering confirmations. They seemed a little 3rd world in terms of professionalism and voice accent. When I ordered they asked for my research group. I said \"why do you not sell to the public ?, it is not a controlled substance.\" They said no it is not controlled but they were just wondering if I was with a group or not. They were not open today but someone took my card info and made me fax them a copy of the exact order codes billing address, shipping address, name and number. They said they would start to process it tomorrow. Mind you I have not recieved it yet but it looks very promising. I also asked for a ETA on delivery, which I will hopefully know tommorow. It took a bit of research to get the exact right compound as there are many androstadien combonations in molecular structure. The right one according to all the research done is 4,16-androstadien-3-one.
This is the one Realm has a patent on. But if I\'m right only on the fragrance mixed with it. I believe I read that also from another post on the forum to. I don\'t want to plagiarize. Yes for the 5 mg it was $60 for 10mg it was $110. They had bigger amounts available as well. I\'m not rich and have spent a lot of money on other none, nol, rone products already and I really do not know how much to use. If I don\'t hear from anyone how much to use and what to mix it with my first idea was to mix a little into my Andro 4.2 since it has an enormous amount of alcohol in it already. Thoughts?
Oh yeah, only in powder form.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

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Thunder have you tried stone independent research labs on this they supply perfect ten alter ego PPA i think to this site also they may be able to tell you some more we have james kohl here but not phil stone although i think bruce has a direct link to this guy as he orders hes products from the wholesaler. As far as androstedienone it should work but as you said finding it can be diffucult and bruce is worried about suppling it as far as legal concerns over patents etc. But i dont know about the powdered form but you could try mixing a little small amount in with youre andro 4.2 to see if it will work. Id be interested to see how it worked and also if you were successful in mixing it straight in also keep the forum updated as to youre results.

Also thunder what sort of results and products have you tried from this site what amounts etc some of us may be able to help you out some more in fine tuning the ratios applications etc.
Keep us posted images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, I also found the androstadienone through a little searching around on Steraloids.com, so that\'s how I knew the price. I think 5 mg is a good quantity to start with. There are some guidelines in the Realm patents on how much to use in a fragrance (of course, these concentrations are part of the patent!). I think the range was from about the concentration of NPA mixed in cologne 1:5 to 1/20th this concentration. As androstadienone is a strong odorent (like androstenone), I\'d start with the same guidelines for -none (about 0.02 mg per application). Tell us when you get the powder. I think 5 mg is very little powder. You may need a fine scale.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey i came up with .4 mg i think in another post read the one on the 0.02 of none + y rone and x nol i expanded something that could work just some ideas for the exact science types to help us out with plus we could also suggest endorphins to be added to pheros products to make people even more sustebile.

[oscar]

Thunder,

Congratulations!
So it was just a matter of calling and ordering it, huh?
Why the hell didn\'t I think of that! images/icons/crazy.gif

I\'m sure you\'ll be hearing from the serious science guys on how to get it into usable form, but while you\'re waiting for your shipment, you may want to find some Pharmco or Everclear Grain Alcohol (Ethanol 95%), and perhaps a bottle of quality distilled water.

I would put a drop of each, alcohol and water on a clean surface and drop just a couple of granules of the powder onto each drop to see which dissolves the powder more readily.

Good Luck!
Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

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Hey oscar whats youre take on my new formula for phero application in the other thread about using .02 mg of none as a baseline and everything else coming along as something or anything. The formula may work but im still prepared to say that rone - stadinenone is still to be explored im sure someone with a chem set rone and the new stadienone will come up with results at some stage a future direction as well.

[oscar]

DrDuck,

I saw that recipe. I REALLY hope you left out a zero on the front end of the A-Rone quantity, if you\'re talking about a one dose formula. The kit A-Rone is seriously stinky, almost as intense as the A-None.

I\'ve got no idea about the Dienone yet.
Truth\'s idea about using Dienone and/or A-None totalling .02mg/dose sounded like a good jumping-off point to me. But then, I do lean toward the conservative side.

Using .04mg of the Dienone might be an OD, but it would be a good way to see how well it works. I\'m very anxious to hear some results.

Funny, but when I think of the difference between 1/25000th of a gram and 1/50000th of a gram, and that margin being the difference between success and failure, I envision nightmares of mirrors and razor blades! images/icons/crazy.gif

At $12,000 bucks a gram, you sure as hell don\'t wanna sneeze!

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[jvkohl]

Usually, the follow-up on purchase of androsterone from Sigma, included a call-back the day after I ordered. Then, I was \"grilled\" as to intended use, and told on one
occassion that it could not be sent unless I had either a university or research institution address.

I suspect Thunder will hear the same thing; if not, I expect that Bruce and I will need to talk about this.

BTW; I have nothing against androstadienone; I just think that it would be very difficult to come up with a good mix, since in studies only picogram amounts are used (not something measurable on anything less than research laboratory scales).

[drchaos]

picograms applied to right under the target\'s nose, usually.

It\'s easy to get picograms from milligrams.

Mix one milligram in large amount of dilutant.
Keep track of how much that is.

Take a centileter of that, and dilute it again and keep track of the presumed concentration.

are you sure it\'s really picograms and micrograms?

in any case if dienone really is \'the\' VNO activating pheromone then I\'d imagine it would be extremely potent.

I take it that your position is that human reactions to the -none and -nol are learned (though apparently learned automatically by just living and with dimorphic effects) and the stimulus is transmitted to the brain from the conventional olfactory center?

[Nutt]

I would imagine the best bet for dilution would be splitting the quantity in half with a razor blade or similar, then adding this to 100mL ( or whatever) of alchol and then diluting the dissolved mix from there, allowing you to preform molarity calculations to get the concentration.

I dont know enough about preperation of pheros to say all yo have to do is add it to the alchol though. werent people talking about \'antifreeze\' type molecules used to delay phero release, would you need something like this in the mix?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, androsterone was a classified anabolic steroid until recently, but it should be OK now.

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Kohl, I did recieve a phone call the next day (today) and asked for my business name. I told her that the poeple I spoke with yesterday said it was shippable to public. The lady told me they do not ship to the public. I told her what kind of research I was doing with scents and the product and that it is not controlled. She had a discussion with the president of the company and it was agreed upon that for this particlar situation they would break procedure and set up a special account under my name instead of a business name. Looks like me and bruce should be the ones doing the talking.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thunder, so are you doing real, publishable research on scents or the type of research that the rest of us on the forum are doing? :-).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, might as well pipe in... First on the making of solutions, here are a few notes to remember. The chemistry kits have 1 mg/mL and there are crystals at the bottom of the bottle. This basically means that it is about at the saturation point. So 1 mg or less per mL will be an appropriate amount of ethanol. Other things will dissolve more per quanity of soln, (ie chlorofrom, but I guess we will avoid that one, eh?) but in general, the viscosicty of the other solvents makes it hard to apply with an atomizer, so you can avoid them. Someone said to see how much will dissolve in water, don\'t try it. These things do not like water.

Another thing to think about. If you make up a soln of 0.5 mg/mL this will be approximatly the same strength as NPA. From a practicle standpoint, there has been a lot of experimenting with that product. It is pseudo logical to start there. (Equal strength, both have quite an oder, previous results encouraging)

The last note to make. 20 drops is approximatly one mL of Water. This is the only instance that it holds up. And it is Approximate, really approximate... So, please do not try to use it in making mixtures for quantitative purposes. Go find a syringe and use that, much better to do. Get quite a few and use one per product, that would be best. Now, syringes are commonly labeled in \"Units\" (maybe it is just me, but isn\'t that a terrible unit to use for volumn?) and units are related to mL\'s by this...

100 Units = 1 mL

I could use the apropriate SI units to write that out, but it gets messy. OK, good luck Thunder, let us know what is up.

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

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Walter , you Rock....Thanks for the advice.

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Ok well parker if you manage to pull it off and do some testing with it let everyone know how it turns out if it could be organised to try this stuff and it proves to work then things could get interesting.
Has anyone considered putting endorphins into pheormone mixes or products as an extra idea (would it have any effect etc)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, where do you get endorphins? I don\'t know much about them. Can you point me to some info?

[jvkohl]

Thunder,

Good to hear you will get the chance to experiment. And yes, I think that if you are able to come up with anything scientifically sound, you and Bruce should talk. Another word of caution, however. Nearly all chemical products state (in some form) not for use on humans/in humans etc. If the androstadienone carries this statement, you might want to be able to support human testing by referring to published works by others, whose studies have passed ethical review (Martha McClintock, Noam Sobel, I. Savic, and others).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Endorphins are the feel good chemicals of the body im just thinking that if one was to put them in phero products that others would have a feel good attitude and response could be useful along with the sexual responses of androgen compounds and couplins. Just some food for thought, i would be interested to hear how thunders experiments turn out to.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah endorphins are the feel good chemicals in the bod. But they are derived from a precursor protein/peptide beta-LPH, or beta-lipotrophin. If you cut that peptide at amino acid (AA) 104 you will end up with beta endorphine. If you hydrolyse off the tail at 118 or 117 you get gamma or alpha endorphin (respectivly.) The take home message is that now we are dealing with proteins, and these are much less stable than pheros. If you need a model (and something that is not too large of a protein) look at insulin. Its activity is completely lost after 5 days at room temp (ref around here somewhere) Now, not all proteins behave this way, but it is something to consider.

Oh yeah, this system would never work as a scent. Proteins are charged, and I don\'t often see aroma plasma. Now if there are steriod based endorphines (otherwise known as opiates, ie morphine or heroin. They bind to the same sites as endorphins, but at 18-30 times less the ability to cause the \"feel good\" response,) the arguement above doesn\'t apply. But if you are depending on proteins, to quote Ash, \"You ain\'t got but Jack and Shit. And Jack left town...\"

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

[oscar]

Walter,

I\'m curious.
What is 5mg going to look like? I\'m thinking that since it\'s only 1/200th of a gram, that it\'s going to be something like a \"matchhead\" or two worth of powder.
Would this be close?

Thunder,

I hadn\'t fully realized the high cost of the stuff, and the minute quantity you\'d be getting when I suggested experimenting with the distilled water. Good thing Walter\'s here.
I would suggest you take the full 5mg and throw it into 5ml of ethanol, and then dilute 1ml quantities or less if desired to .5mg/ml. I don\'t think you\'re ever going to want it any MORE concentrated than 1mg/ml, so this is a move that you\'re not likely to look back upon with regret.
And if you\'re going to mix it with cologne, this concentration (1mg/ml) will allow you to work with less alcohol being unnecessarily added to your fragrance. That is, provided the stuff doesn\'t crystallize at this concentration, in which case you\'ll need to further dilute it. Though the alcohol in a cologne would help to further dilute it also.

James,

I\'d imagine that with ALL the different pheros we\'re using we\'re probably delivering only picogram quantities to the subjects receptors, but need to \"seed\" the air with microgram quantities or greater in order to accomplish this. Wouldn\'t you think? We ARE more or less \"casting our fates to the winds\". Are we not? images/icons/wink.gif

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

W.O., it is very hard to give a reasonable answer to that, because things crystalize in all kinds of ways. The most common crystal that folks think of is table salt. Very dense, pretty much cubic, and so on. But, some things are a lot more like snowflakes, and incorperate a lot of air. The crystals at the bottom of the vials in the chem kits resemble this, and since all of these molecules are very similar, I\'d expect it to do the same. 5 mg is not much though, but I can\'t really answer what it should look like.

On that note, 5 mg is not much at all. Be very careful, if you exhale on the vial you run the risk of blowing it all over the place. I\'d have the ethanol (alcohol) ready to go, and just barely open the top of the vial to accomidate your delivery sys for the booze. Hopefully they do not send it in an ampule. Unfortunatly, this is quite common. It is a sealed glass container, yup sealed, the top is melted shut. You have to get a pair of kitchen gloves on, a paper towel, and wrap the ampule in the paper towel. The top of the ampule is distinct, and there is a part of it that curves inward. Place your thumbs behind that part and slowly but firmly press until the top snaps off. Then add alcohol. It will not have enough volume in the ampule to dissolve all of the pheros, don\'t worry. Once they are wetted by the initial quantity they won\'t move easily by something like an exhale.

OK, I have done more voodoo than help it seems, but I hope that they send the goods in a vial. In the chem world, either is common.

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks everyone. I went to the chem store today to get all the necessary equip. Have the alcohol ready. I hope it\'s not a pop top to because those sometimes shatter.

[jvkohl]

Thunder,
Echoes of Walter Mitty: plus....
Typically, these chemicals arrive as crystals/powder in a vacuum-sealed glass vial. When you remove a tin seal, a rubber top is exposed. When you pop the rubber top, you must be very careful not to let the vacuum pressure release without most of the top still sealing the vial. That is: slowly lift one small portion of the rubber top. Otherwise, the vacuum can cause significant loss of the chemical in an aerosol. You\'ll see a very expensive puff of chemical, unless you\'re careful. And, as WM said, control your breathing when you have the vial nearby. Wonder what would happen if someone \"snorted\" a gram or two of this stuff--maybe Donald Trump or Bill Gates will give it a try--since few people could afford it.

Dr. Chaos,
Initially, the testing of androstadienone was performed using a patented device that delivered picogram amounts directly into the human VNO. I\'d need to review the more recent studies with regard to additional deliver methods, which have become somewhat less sophisticated. And yes, I do believe that it is the conditioned response to pheromones that\'s most important to behavior. That means that androsterone, for example, should be just as effective in adults, as androstadienone is, and perhaps androsterone is better--since the androstadienone response is most likely to be a part of early conditioning (before puberty for example). It also can be expected to lead to the androsterone as a pheromone-conditioned response that is manifest later in life. Tricky stuff, mostly speculation--but biologically based speculation typically is quite valid.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

JVK, good point, I didn\'t think about the vacuum part. But, since that sucker has two very oxidizable double bonds they\'ll probably do that. I suppose this is when it is actually nice to have the needle from a syringe, but not a total requirement. The point I want to make is to go REAL slow. When you get impatient, remind yourself how much it cost you, and you\'ll be able to slow down. I learned the hard way, losing most of a couple of hundred bucks worth of enzyme at work. The boss wasn\'t all that happy with me for a while

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Seems like the effect of rone levels is to indicate sex drive in males - hence the link to DHEA and the leveling off later in life but not of testorstrone. Anyone care to take up this theroy that is why rone may work so well in SOE without the aggressiveness of none based products.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have recieved the Androstadien. It came in a glass bottle the looked like it had about 10 grains of salt in it. Almost looked empty. Didn\'t even cover the bottom of the very small bottle. Mixed it with 95% ethanol. 14.5ml to 5mg product. Comes to Aprox. .34mg per ml. Even though it looked like nothing was there it is very strong. Has almost exact smell of Androstenone. Thinking it needs even more dilution. My whole small lab reeks of it. I just need to get a girl in there right. Walter and other chemists I need your input on testing strategies. Laboratorily and socially. I under stand the patented instrument for dilivery of picograms. Help me with the math on the proper dilution for picogram application. Email me directly if you please at rickarmstrong3@attbi.com I need to start gathering data.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey, so problems with opening the vial and pouring in the crystals? Are you really going to deliver picogram quantities to the nose of some female volunteers? Do you work in a laboratory?

I think most of us would be more interested in studies using micro/milli-gram quantities in the real world. Given that you\'ve confirmed that -dienone smells a lot like -none, the 0.02 mg dose might be a good place to start.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If this stuff proves effetive maybe bruce could start selling it....

25 ml spray with 20ml androstadienone sollution in it(leaving space for the customer to add his own scent)

Satan

Just got an idea.... how´bout adding some of it to SOE images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK, I have a few things to offer... One thing to remember is that the pg (that seems kinda funny at the moment) were applied to the subjects nose. In the world we live in we can\'t do that. Next, pheros smell strong. One spray of TE makes my bathroom reek. Do you have NPA or some of the raw stuff from a chem kit to compare it to? The comparison is tough too. You have to light a match and turn on a fan for a while to clear the room of the previous smell, and also breathe some air that is not scented/phero\'d to get your nose back to zero.

I just bring this up because the conc that people use around here varies quite a bit. And man, the raw stuff has some kick to the smell. Oh yeah, look at what the conc of the \"secret ingredients\" in other products are. I don\'t thing that pico grams are what we are looking at. 20 - 80 ug\'s (or 0.02 - 0.08 mg) sounds like a full dose of pheros around here.

Well, here is what I would try if I had the stuff.

300 ug of nol
100 ug rone
50 ug none
50 ug dienone

That should equal 500 ug, and if you have the conc at 1mg / mL that equals 0.5 mL

I like to add the citrus oil +nol for fun (one drop per mL of soln)
2 drops of vanilla (Yeeah I know, but it is fun to add)

I always make 5 mL\'s of mix and give it a college try. Well, I make 5 mL\'s total of EtOH, then add the drops of aroma or vanilla. Since I use the chem kits, which are 1 mg / mL the volume is equal to the grams (I.E. one ug per uL) This gives me something very comparable to the concentrations in JB1.

If you have accurate measuring devices (Pipets or pipetman\'s) this is easy, if not, hope the syringes work. Last note, I always use pheros with scents, and the smell of the pheros is well, not the easist to describe, but it compliments the citrus scent by adding an edge (no I didn\'t plan that pun.) images/icons/smile.gif

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'d begin with trying the stuff by itself, not mixing with other pheros as it would only make it difficult to isolate the effect of dienone.

One way would be to take a small part of the solution, which when fully applied would likely lead to a clear overdose. Then dilute this part further so it can be applied in increasing amounts with a dropper of known volume.

Then take a good shower to get rid of other pheros, put on fresh clothes (and non-contaminated wrist watch, etc.), and go to some good testing grounds. This might be any place where you can sit close to different targets who are experiencing similar contexts for a period of at least a few minutes and discreetely study their reactions. Look for changes in their eyes or perhaps even more obvious behavior. A commuter train during times of moderate traffic load could be a good choice for this purpose. Nothing much else happens that affects people on it, and you get a chance to select suitable seats, leading to similar distances to the targets.

First do a baseline without any application. Then get of and apply one dropp or what ever step you select to about the same place each time, preferably an area of your skin that isn\'t covered in any way. Get on the train again and repeat this several times going back and forth on the same line, taking notes of relevant factors and results at the stops. During a first try only qualitative data might be found, although this might provide clues for choice of quantitative variables for further testing. Eventually obvious overdose levels could be reached, which would end the experiment.

Any reaction will of course depend on a number of factors such as menstrual cycle, distance, age, attraction, and what have you. Therefore a couple of \"measurements\" for each increment, or alternatively quite small increments, might be a good idea.

If there is a serious stink you might want to apply a little bit of cologne before the experiment. Hopefully it shouldn\'t take more than 2-3 hours so the cologne should provide cover for that amount of time. At five minutes per measurement this would yield 24-36 \"datapoints\".

Well, thats my idea. What ever you decide to try I\'m sure we will all be interested to hear about it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I definitely agree that you should test -dienone by itself first.

However, I don\'t think it\'s worthwhile for you take detail notes of reactions from your personal experience (n of 1). Just post your results, and give us an overall opinion. Eventually, a lot more of us need to try -dienone before we can make a final judgement.

Hmm... That 5 mg of -dienone would be good for 250 - 0.02 mg doses. I guess that\'s not quite enough to split up and send a few of us some test samples for $10 each. =P.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Im sure others will start trying it so the results will take a while id be interested to try and get ahold of some androsterol (ROL) androstenine (Nine) are these actual compounds or is my science brain gone again.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Welp, Making a .02 mg solution would require 250 ml of Ethonol. Seems like pretty watered down. I used last night. by itself .34 mg per ml sol. I did not however measure how much I put on as I used an atomizer. About a spray and a half on clothing and skin. 18 hours later clothing stills smells strong. I will used a measured amount tonight. One thing that is kinda cool ( i guess ) is that I have larangitis and I have to get really close to girls to talk to them. Therefore invading personal space with good cause. I thought I O.D.\'d last night because I reeked with a strong none smell. I was self consious and figured I smelled pretty bad. I tried to cover some of it up with Curve but the Androstadienone was just over powering. Funny things. Good results. Many good vibes and looks from someone I hope to see again tonight, lots of hugs and kisses from all my friends girlfriends. One of my good friends girlfriend at the end of the night for my goodnight kiss witch is usually a peck was open mouthed and wet. I was like damn(to my self). I would not do that to my friend but damn she is fine. Thanks for the math Walter. I\'ll try comboes later. Need data on this alone first. Hard not to cover with a bit of cologne though because it is so strong. Excuse my unscientific talk now, but this is why we are all here anyway and we know it, One night after I already get laid I will go out with just dienone because I already won\'t care if get any or not. All ready satisfied. images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

0.02 mg is quantity, not a concetration. If you mix it to the concentration of NPA (0.5 mg/ml), then you would apply 0.04 ml to obtain 0.02 mg pheromone. In any case, you wouldn\'t dilute 5 mg of phero with 250 ml of ethanol unless you want to apply 1 ml of the mix at a time, which is too much even for a spray.

[oscar]

Thunder,

I\'m curious why you added that particular quantity of alcohol (14.5ml). Did it take that much to dissolve the crystals fully?

Seems to me that a .34mg/ml concentration is either a way (@3X) too strong spray, or a marginally weak additive.
If your planning on diluting it further, just dilute some of it. Say, 1ml of the motherload added to 2ml of alcohol to yield a .0113% spray-friendly level.
If you want to add some of it to a cologne at any point down the road, you\'ll end up with an alcohol OD if you\'ve cut it any deeper than .034%.

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes it took that much to dissolve the cyrstals and I believe it still needs a bit more.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oscar, depending on the amount sprayed from my atomizer with is not from love scent then this would be a good level. Kinda hard to measure, I do not have the right instruments. Thankyou everyone for your advice. How the hell do I get this damn Newbie thing off of my name. This may seemed far fetched but I have been doing all of the work with your mathematical help(which I\'m not that good at but could certainly use some lessons.) Does anybody think it would be far fetched to apply for a grant to actually study the effects of this product with controlled groups. Can any one give me help on what type of grant and where to obtain one. Here\'s a real shocker. I\'m a Network Engineer, Systems designer, computer jockey. I was laid off and have to much time on my hands. While I should be studying Cisco text books. I\'ve been entrenched with this for a 3 weeks now. Once I get an idea I can\'t stop thinking about it until I have conclusions on whether it would be lucrative for me socially and espescially financialy. If anybody thinks I have a game plan or has one of there own I guess they could see where I\'m going with this and steal my idea since I\'m stupid, or trusting enough to plant it all over this site. I do appreciate everyones help and since science and chemistry have always fasinated me,but not math, I see potential here. Any comments? Am I just another dumbass. I know one dumbass who sold California the patent rights to those lilttle yellow lane bumps on the highway. Needless to say. There are alot of bumps there. I call it the brail system. You\'re to drunk to drive so you use the brail systems to stay in the lane.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thunder, while I am not all the good at getting funding, with the background you have, at least you can use the exp\'s for publishing, on your own or with in journals (another nice run-on.) About stealing things, as far as I know, you are the only one with intuitive, and balls for that matter, to go after the -dienone.

Now on to the solubility of the -dienone. I find it hard to believe that it would take so much alcohol. I have found in my own lab experiences that it is a kinetic thing. Quite honestly it just takes time (try making a 50% sugar soln sometime, Arrrrrrgh!!) My guess is with a little heat (warm water bath from the sink) and it would go into the alcohol. Or, you could probably check and see if they sent an MSDS with the shipment, it should have the physical properties (ie solubility) of it, if they are known. Or they might give the CAS # which you can use in chem search engines for info. Keep up the good work and let us know what happens.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Another very succesfull night. To tired now to explain much but. Went to a dance club and the response was almost overwhelming. The only thing holding me back was that I just met another girl at one of my local hangouts(never scene her before) attractive. Lots of bumping and grinding on the floor and off. She loved kissing my neck. No intercourse. She asked for my number so we will see if the thought conscioustly or unconsciously stays with her. Damn good results condsidering I\'ve kinda been looking for about 3.5 months now and bam. two days into experiment. Not counting my chickens yet but seems very positive.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thunder,

Just curious, what other pheromones have you used in the past? Can you compare the androstadienone to them in terms of effectiveness? images/icons/cool.gif

[Naughtymonkey]

A word of caution.

If any of you are having any ideas that you might want to file a patent application on, disclosure in this forum will destroy your patent rights outside of the US. The rest of the world follow the European system of first to file, unlike the US where it is first to invent.

NM

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, I don\'t think people talking on this forum are looking to patent or make money off of any their ideas. It\'s a place to share freely. However, I don\'t think there\'s any money to be made on -dienone no matter how potent we, the forum members, find it to be. Realm has it all patented. In fact, if -dienone becomes the new rage, I\'m sure Realm will try to crack down on us. I\'d be happy with just experimenting with -dienone and hopefully benefit from it in my personal life.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Realm does not have a patent on the steroid itself. Only there own creation of perfume with the steroid.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

yo Thunder,
Can you say more on how the phero affected them physiologically or biologically. I know it could be hard but maybe to try and compare it to none, nol, rone. also like look ro things like increased breathing, flushing of the skin, mostly as soon as you enter the room (those would be the most genuine reactions becasue they still don\'t know you and therefore they would be acting upon just what they are feeling \"and seeing maybe\" and not on your personality, yet).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, Realm\'s patent doesn\'t prevent us from buying the -dienone from Steraloids and making our own mix with it. However, making a phero product with -dienone and selling it as such could infringe. A concentrate (0.5 mg/ml) may fall outside of the patent. I don\'t know if you can draw a new patent for the concentrate with -dienone, since it may not seem innovate enough.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Research on the VNO by Jennings-White also examined what responses pheromone-like substances produced in the VNO. According to his research, the most active pheromone-like chemicals for humans are estratetraenol and androstandienone. In his research, he also examined the effectiveness of commercial perfumes that contain pheromone-like substances by using scientific measuring methods. In addition, he found that these pheromone-like chemicals are gender-specific, i.e., females are sensitive to androstandienone, and males are sensitive to estratetraenol. Furthermore, he says that these substances are also species-specific, so androstenone, the pig pheromone, does not give remarkable activity for humans (http://www.erox.com/Sixth<http://www.erox.com/Sixth>sense/StoryOne.html).


This is what James V Kohl had to say.

But Erox does have some credibility in the eyes of James Kohl, medical technologist and co-author of The Scent of Eros: Mysteries of Odor in Human Sexuality. \"I\'m convinced Erox has the only real synthetic human pheromone,\" but, he adds, \"most other scientists are skeptical because it\'s in a product sold by Erox.\"

Kohl however, like others in the fragrance industry, questions Erox\'s claim that the synthetic pheromones in Realm make the person feel more calm and self-confident. \"If anything, it\'s a placebo effect,\" he says.

Kohl, I\'ve just been reading all day. I\'m definately not trying to start an argument as you are extrememly more qualified as a scientist,researcher, and veteran in the industry. The last statement. it\'s a placebo effect seems to go against the conditioned response argument you pose. Maybe I\'m reading out of context. Also what is your theme of Species Specific.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Were those statements taken for James Kohl\'s book?

[travis]

The two pharagrap seems to be contradicting something is wrong with these two.


\"But Erox does have some credibility in the eyes of James Kohl, medical technologist and co-author of The Scent of Eros: Mysteries of Odor in Human Sexuality. \"I\'m convinced Erox has the only real synthetic human pheromone,\" but, he adds, \"most other scientists are skeptical because it\'s in a product sold by Erox.\"

Kohl however, like others in the fragrance industry, questions Erox\'s claim that the synthetic pheromones in Realm make the person feel more calm and self-confident. \"If anything, it\'s a placebo effect,\" he says.\"


Travis

[jvkohl]

It\'s the _context_ that\'s missing from the quotes, as well as the date of the article. I vaguely recall mentioning to some journalist at some point in time that I thought Erox had the real thing, but always comment that human pheromones will NOT act as aphrodisiacs--thus the placebo effect, so far as being a sex attractant. Things have changed with findings that human pheromones alter hormone levels in other humans. Still, human pheromones do not act as aphrodisiacs; the VNO is not necessarily involved; \"feelings\" are very subjective et. al. Like I said, context is important. It\'s not good to pull a couple statements from an article and try to make a point.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

James are we dealing with Pig Pheromones or synthetic human ones.\"Things have changed with findings that human pheromones alter hormone levels in other humans. You wrote this in your last post.\" I guess what I\'m asking is if we are using pig pheromones are they going to alter the hormone levels in people. As posted in one of my reply\'s Pheromones are reported to be species specific.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks, for the info Monkey. You could just email me them.

[Irish]

Pigs and humans have at least one phero in common: -none. -None is sold in aerosol form to hog-breeders to aid in artificial insemination. They spray the stuff at the female to induce her to \'assume the position\' and receive the insemination. This can also be induced by bringing a boar nearby, but an aerosol can is easier to manage than a live boar! I don\'t know if pigs and humans have other phero\'s in common.

At least one of the experiments you read about on phero-sales sites (the one where the theater seats were sprayed with pheros and women preferred them) used the commercial pig sex attractant \'Boarmate\', which contains -none. -None is -none, whether your using it on sows or human females.

I\'d be interested if there are other human pheros in common with pigs...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Irish androsteRONE is human only as i have read the scientific liturere and so is androsteNOL so it seems that none is the only one in common although there are various forms that come under the sciecetific banner name \"None\" and nodays most of them use one version that is specific to humans and not the pig version.
The none nol and rone are simplications of a very complex science better ask james more on this one. At least SOE can be the only real product to say for certain they dont use pig none because it has zero amounts. Because it only contains androsterone and androstenol. If youre worried about that then buy that product. Also something like NPA and the edge have non androgens ingredients which are secret but enhance the product a great deal.

[oscar]

naughtymonkey,

I think that if you check out a Pherin patent and an Erox patent, the principals will be the same. They are, I believe, sister corporations, Erox dealing with Realm and the fragrance and attractant end, and Pherin handling the more medicinal applications of pheromones. I\'ll bet you\'ll see Berliner\'s name on both.

Oscar images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So, where can we get this BoarMate product? =).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Funny!
http://www.antecint.com/main/boarmate.htm (\"http://www.antecint.com/main/boarmate.htm\")

[travis]

The scent of Androstadienone is very close to EDGE.

Travis

[jvkohl]

Pherin is basically Erox Corp. at a higher level; for development of therapuetic pheromones--as opposed to simple fragrance R & D + marketing.

One Japanese research group reported that androstenol altered LH levels in women. George Preti reported at a conference that axillary secretions from men increased LH in women (and affected their mood). He also suggested that LH assays be used to distinguish a pheormone from something else in axillary secretions. I\'m sure we will hear more from him fairly soon. To my knowledge, no one has experimented with androsterone or androstenone to see if LH levels are affected. I\'m fairly certain that androsterone will have a positive impact, while androstenone will have a negative impact on LH. The positive affect of androsterone on mood/behavior is quite predictable--but not enough studies have been done. I\'m used to \"going beyond the data\" and for being known to do so. The Scent of Eros book was about 5 years ahead of its time.

George Preti told me that the Japanese group that reported on androstenol and LH used excessive amounts of androstenol (I\'ve forgotten how much, and don\'t feel like looking it up). Besides, it\'s a matter of perspective. Some people think that picogram amounts should be effective, others (like me) think that milligrams should be delivered to the nose (not just to the VNO).

Everyone wrote: \"The none nol and rone are simplications of a very complex science better ask james more on this one. At least SOE can be the only real product to say for certain they dont use pig none because it has zero amounts. Because it only contains androsterone and androstenol.\"

Good point! Anything I can say in this Forum will be a summary--I simply can\'t get into detail due to time constraints. I\'ve explained in previous posts some of the reasoning behind using only androsterone and androstenol. Others have commented on positive effects with androstenone. The bottom line for me was whether to include a urinous component (androstenone is always described as urinous) or whether to go with a musky (androstenol) and a \"clean smelling\" androsterone. Not much decision making in that choice. I had experimented with androsterone and the scientific rationale was exceptional for using it. Besides, I had not experimented with androstenone or androstenol, but at least a few people/reports confirmed that androstenol was pleasant in small quantities, while this was not the case for androstenone.

Reports that -dienone smells like androstenone are troublesome, since -dienone has been used to alter autonomic function, and even to help map the parts of the hypothalamus/brain that vary in their response according to sex. \"Needs more study,\" is the phrase that comes to mind, but it\'s also a phrase used most by psychologists, not biologists. From a biological perspective, using androstenol and androsterone in SoE was a safe bet--and it appears to be very effective. Not as an aphrodisiac, mind you, but as an enhancement.

If some people are getting more of an aphrodisical effect using androstenone, more power to them. Just because I don\'t understand it, doesn\'t mean it\'s not happening.

[travis]

James,

Correct me if I\'m wrong, what you are saying that SOE has something to do with hormones, it increases the hormone level of the person right? Now, SOE must be effective to women or men whos producing less hormones and these people are from 25 years old and on right? It is more as a mood lifter to them.

And SOE wont be to effective to people who are producing more hormones like the teens. Is that right?

Travis

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, from everything I heard, -dienone is a strong oderent, like -none, so a 0.02 mg limit is a good place to start. This is why I think the concentration of -dienone in Realm for Women must be very low (less than APC), since no one has ever reported smelling the pheros in it, even after the scent fades.

[a.k.a.]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by James V. Kohl:
Reports that -dienone smells like androstenone are troublesome, since -dienone has been used to alter autonomic function<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James,
Is that “troublesome� as in “potentially dangerous�?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I just recieved the bill from the chem place.
$17.00 shipping charges. Raked up the price of my experiment a bit huh?

[Naughtymonkey]

Oscar

thanks for the info. I skimmed through my search without looking into it in any detail

Lets hope the insects don\'t fugure out what we\'re doing or boy will they be pissed! images/icons/laugh.gif

[Naughtymonkey]

well I did a patent search today on pheromones in general. Unsurprisingly the vast majority of patents out there are basically from the agrochemical industry, i.e. to disrupt insect mating. One particularly strange one to do with reducing stress in pigs!

When it comes to human pheromones, Erox are out there but the biggest player seems to be an outfit calling themselves Pherlin pharmaceuticals (spelling might not be quite right, I\'ll check tomorrow). Harvard uni have cloned the VNO and several people are looking into peptide mimetics for the VNO receptor. This Pherlin outfit have either granted patents or applications to reducing anxiety by stimulating VNO, also treatment of PMS is another i.e. there does seem to be alot going on that involves pheromones but not to do with attraction.

All in all surprised at how little is out there from a patents point of view. I do have a couple of the patents in pdf files if anyone can tell me how to post them here

NM

[**DONOTDELETE**]

mmm well if james is focusing on rone and nol well then that would be why the product works a fair bit better than heavy none products (the question is whether small amounts are effective or to leave it out completley.)
Usage so far has been interesting but i have noticed some interesting effects other reactions have been absent. Its more of a general area enhancement rather than a focused product. But will have to for some time yet. Im noticing some tension around the forum right now, we need those that believe in none and those that are leaving it out to agree to disagree otherwise it could get interesting. Rol and nine are interesting choices of androgens for futher testing and reserach (androsterol and androstenine)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Chunks from the NIH journal of research.

The results suggest that the VNO can at least respond to specific compounds, a necessary first step in including a physiologic or behavioral effect. Also, the fact that the compounds did not elicit a response from the olfactory epithelium at the concentrations tested indicates they may exert an effect without eliciting a conscious awareness of any odor.

A spokesman for Erox declined to identify these compounds. But in March of last year, the company filed a patent application with the European Patent Office for rights to use specific androstenes and estrenes  steroids related to testosterone and estrogen  in perfume products. The patent application states that 1,3,5(10), 16-estratetraene-3-ol uniquely elicits a change in surface potential in the male VNO, and that the female VNO responds to D4,16-androstadien-3-one.

On this last does that mean that they reseerve to use theses specific compounds in all perfume products or just there\'s???
http://www.erox.com/SixthSense/StoryTwo.html (\"http://www.erox.com/SixthSense/StoryTwo.html\")

This is the link I retrieved this info from. Really I\'m lookng for the patent right issues.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thunder, so how has the -dienone been working for you?

I\'m thinking of ordering some -dienone myself soon. Are there any hurdles that we should know about? I remember you told them that you were doing some \"research\". Is that a requirement? I don\'t know how they verify that you\'re a bonafide researcher.

[Watcher]

That sounds like a very good idea truth i would be interested in seeing if this new type of pheromone works any differently or any better than the other types none rol nol and nine and rone. Future research needs to try new things. I wonder what james kohls view is on this new additive type.

[jvkohl]

I\'ve commented several time on -dienone, and don\'t think it\'s necessary, or even desireable if it smells like -none.

No studies have been done on -rone and hormone responses, but -ol elicits hormonal changes. Does this mean that SoE elicits hormone changes? Most likely since it contains -ol. The hormone changes can and should occur in men and in women of all ages. From what I\'ve seen, SoE is most effective on younger women, but it\'s hard to judge since the behavior of younger women is usually not as direct an approach as that of older women.
\"Reports that -dienone smells like androstenone are troublesome, since -dienone has been used to alter autonomic function.\"
Is that “troublesome� as in “potentially dangerous�?

Not dangerous, troublesome because if it smells like -none, I can\'t imagine how it could be effective--yet, still it alters autonomic function positively when used in amounts that are undetectable. The real trouble becomes trying to figure out how much of this stuff to use in experiments. Too much and you stink; too little and the effect is liable to be undetected (unless you are in a laboratory situation and able to monitor autonomic function). It was much easier to experiment with androsterone, since it is generally perceived to be pleasant. Through many experiments is was easy to figure out that 1mg/ml was the best concentration to use for positive effects on women\'s behavior.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, I think it\'s likely that -none has positive effects at the threshold of detection and maybe slightly below the threshold. I don\'t see why it needs to be detectable to have a positive effect.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thank you for alll your input. rickarmstrong3@attbi.com if you would like to contact me futher. For earlier posts yes it should act differently because it is a sythetic human steroid and not an animals. All the research I\'ve read said that these steroids a species specific. And James all of the research has already been done by Pherin on -dienone. Much to read out there. Positive results, yes, OD possible - highly likely. Had girls licking my neck last weedend. Also sprayed some one my groin area and had one girl in certain terms, cluth me there for a while, very erotic. Thanks, good luck to all. If you do order some for yourself good luck. It took quite a bit of thought, perseverence, and bullshit to get it without being with a university or chemical research group. Hopefully if I can pull this off, demonstate it for human perposes, not supposed to be used on humans or animals as of yet, You will have a product almost like 4.2 up for grabs on the site. 1st of it\'s kind. In process of getting funding and research reports and clearance of not infringing on other patent rights. Also working out a deal on big quantity\'s of -dienone. I know there is a lot more than theses simple things to bring a product on the market, enough disclosure at this point. So long, and thanks for the shoes. Peace.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hmm... So, Thunder you said that you didn\'t have great success with the other products on Love Scent, right? Now, a miracle with -dienone?! Makes me want to put that Realm for Women back on until I get my hands on the raw -dienone. :-).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

How long a time period are you looking at Thunder?

I really want to try some of this stuff now. images/icons/smile.gif As I\'m sure alot of other people reading this do... you could have a great product if you get it out there. images/icons/cool.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

gents

before we take off with an overdose of exitement, may I point out that Androstadienol also requires investigation being as it is also \"present\" in human sweat. I beg to postulate that some of this may be needed in the ultimate mix. It\'s all jolly interesting stuff isn\'t it ?

I watch with interest.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yo Thunder,
You said you had GIRLS LIcking your neck?! As in plural? As in happened w/ more than one girl? and what do you mean that a girl clutched you in your groin? Did she straight up grab your groin?
Also bro, where these girls the kind of \"slutty\" girls or something? NO OFFENSE but I\'m trying to look at it from all angles. Also how old are you and what was the scene (and social atmosphere) like at those hits?
Because DAMN licking is INCREDEBLY PRIMAL. You were incredebly lucky to either have found the \"right-kind-of-girl\" or an incredebly powerful phero.
Serously I have not heard of hits like these w/ none. NONE is like kissing and grinding. Licking is a whole nother vibe.
Damn man serously get back to us on this, because I will buy some damn dienone if that is how it is.
Latz and keep bringing in results.

Oh and THUNDER how has the phero affected you? have you noticed any differences on how it makes you feel??
And have you tryed it out at work?? I think at work you would be able to see how it affects people on a different level. Also they might give you comment like \"Hey you sure look sexy today.\" or \"Are you going out afterwards or what?\" instead of just licking you LOL. images/icons/laugh.gif
Nah but serously. Licking is very primal, almost like oral sex primal.
Take care bro. And keep up the good work.
DS

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, we want to hear more about your hits, Thunder!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Here\'s a quote from the abstract about concentrations of certain androgens in sweat:

The concentrations of five 16-androstene steroids were determined, by a GC-MS method, in freshly-produced apocrine sweat (adrenaline-induced), in 8 men and 2 women. The ranges of concentrations (nmol/microliter) in apocrine sweat were: 5 alpha-androst-16-en-3-one (5 alpha-A), 0.1-2.0 and 4,16-androstadien-3-one (androstadienone), 0-1.9, 5,16-Androstadien-3 beta-ol (androstadienol) was also found in 5 of the subjects (range
0.05-1.05). 5 alpha-Androst-16-en-3 alpha- or 3 beta-ols [3 alpha (beta)-androstenols] were only found in small amounts (&lt; 0.1 nmol/microliters) in a few subjects.

I found the -dienol on Sterloids.com as well:
http://www.steraloids.com/pages/page005.html#A0660-000 (\"http://www.steraloids.com/pages/page005.html#A0660-000\")

It\'s more affordably priced at $12 for 5 mgm.

-dienone can be found at:
http://www.steraloids.com/pages/page004.html#A0570-000 (\"http://www.steraloids.com/pages/page004.html#A0570-000\")

[Nutt]

hehe, I really want to try this stuff. anyone bruce,? thunder?) up for trying to resell this stuff raw?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Dalesalsa, yes as in more than one. I\'m 31 and it was at a dance club packed with women. I was dancing to and sweating like crazy, I thought for sure I OD\'d because I could smell it so much.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I have spoken briefly with Bruce on the subject of marketing. Might have a winnable battle that would most likely occur with Pherin, and Erox Corps. There are different maketing stratgies as well. I have written and filed a Disclosure Statement since I have publicly addressed my efforts on this forum. Just in case. With attorneys finding out exactly what patent rights these companies do and do not possess, which I am paying for myself I might add, things could take a while for a product to be availabe. Of course I could just syringe some into a visine bottle for you images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, some of us are eager to pilot test your brew before it hits the market. Hey, if it\'s as good as we expect it to be, the discussion on the board from multiple users will only help sales when officially it begins! Since you already established an account with Steraloids.com, maybe you can buy 50 mgm from Steraloids for $390, mix it up into 20 vials of 5 ml solution containing 2.5 mg of -dienone each, and distribute the test vials for $30-$35.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To much liability. As of now my account does not include for human or animal use. I\'ll use it on my self but I\'m not going to be sued or break any laws by distributing it to the public,,,,so to speak,,,,sorry. I\'ll try to think of a way. From this post you have my email.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Oh, your account is not for human or animal use (?). What did you say you were using it for?!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

How about selling a bottle of the stuff to someone outside the US(less of an liability issue???)???

I live in Norway BTW.

And I would probably buy straigt from the manufacturer but I want to test the stuff first.

Satan

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey THUNDER,
I know this is going to sound like a dumb question but I really need to know the details \"or particulars\" of this case to better analyse the differences between Rone and NONE and Dienone. So here\'s the question what exactly did you mean by the crotch thing? images/icons/crazy.gif Did she grind her crouch agaist yours will dancing? or she grabed you there (always a plus) images/icons/wink.gif ? Or what? I would imagine if she grinding you would be the most natural thing to do--it would go along w/ the instincts and not at all far from socially accepted behaviour (in a club scene of course).
Lay the the 411 (slang for information) for us bro.
Thanks man. Take care.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Actually grabbing. Grinding while dancing from the front and the back. Even doggy style bumping and slapping. With another her friend on my back side. It was like fighting for my attention. Really was the best time I\'ve had in years. One of the girls gave me her number when I sort of led the conversation to hit the sack, and she said \"not yet\" Damn. The girl with the number would not let me out of her site and held my hand and drug me around the bar the whole night. I had never met this girl before this night. Anyway, I called, she called back, hit and miss, hope to see her again this weekend. I planning on going to the same bar and after much calcualtion but I have a hard time measuring in .02 to .05 mg
I going to do the experiment again with what I believe to be a better ratio. I\'m sure I OD\'d last week. I cannot dance that well(at least as good as alot of others) and so I have a handycap already. Offset with my pheromone edge. I\'m trying to coral a few of my fine girlfriends(just friends or have already dated and now friends) to go with me for the extra extra edge. Girls always want what other girls have. Remember it has been said many times before on this forum that pheromones do not make girls, espescially in a crowded smoke filled bar, run up to you and beg for your affection. You\'ve got to have a little GAME!!! to get closer and let the pheromones do their work.

[Watcher]

YYYYYYEEEEEESSSSSSSS get it to us lol. We need it lol. images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OOH shit, your the Man brother!! Damn straight, on the game thing. But damn she grabed your crutch and still held out, damn she really wants to keep you coming back! images/icons/laugh.gif
Good Job, and play on playa\' images/icons/wink.gif
DS

[**DONOTDELETE**]

crutch/crotch...........

oh well, same function I guess images/icons/laugh.gif

Satan

[Naughtymonkey]

Thunder

One possibility you could explore with your patent agent is filing at the US patent office what is called a statutory invention registration. It sort of a patent application but does not give you any enforcable rights. It does mean though that you cannot be sued for patent infringement of any patent application filed after you have filed your SIR. Of course it doesn\'t help you with any patent filed before you but is a cheap way of protecting yourself. Unfortunately I am a UK and European Patent attorney so I can\'t help you out with the US patent office as I don\'t have rights of audience. I\'m happy to give you any free advice you feel you need.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So is women\'s realm the only product out that has -dienone?

I read somewhere that mens realm was -none, but that doesn\'t make alot of sense to me b/c Erox has bashed -none as an \'animal phero.\'

I really want to try -dienone. images/icons/smile.gif I never thought I\'d buy such a low concentrate phero product, but it might be worth it just to try -dienone... if it\'s in realm that is.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Realm for women is the only product to contain -dienone for sure. No one knows how much, but it\'s likely low.

[Buddydust]

Well,all this talk about Androstadienone has gotten me interested in buying Realm for women.My question is(to anyone that has worn Realm/w),has anyone ever commented on why you smell \"feminine\" ? I would hate for a guy or girl to comment that I\'m \"funny\" or that I have a little \"sugar in my tank\" just because I smell a little too feminine. Too bad it\'s not a unisex fragrance or is it??

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What mone does Realm/m have in it?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I\'ve worn Realm for Women. Well, when I wear one spray on clothing, no one comments on the scent. However, I\'ve had someone comment on the perfume smell when I sprayed it on skin. Again, skin application appears to be more intense.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thunder, so anymore success with this -dienone? Gosh, I wish I can get more feedback from other members. Maybe, we can all try Realm for Women for a few weeks.

[Whitehall]

Realm for Women smells too girly for me to wear in public - I\'ve tried but my nose said no.

[travis]

well.....if this stuff works I would invest...the hell with Erox. they can sue me if they want to.

Travis

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It\'s so disappointing after all this to find out that its over. Maybe Mighty Bruce might have some answers as to how we can get this out for resale, maybe a collaboration, I don\'t know. Its a shame to waste a product (and profit) that\'s obvously so effective. I\'d buy it.

[PHP 87]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=\"1\" face=\"Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif\">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thunder:
Sorry to announce guys. I have as of today stop investing my money and time into this project. I would definately have to do battle with Erox. I could win. But they will try to make it as expensive as possible for me. Isn\'t America great. Big man keep\'in the little one down. Unless somebody wants to help me invest 20 - 30 thousand dollars in lawyer fees. Well.....
This sucks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maybe you or someone else can sell it in the granule form and sell it as a kit, along with instructions.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

REALM people :

I have worn both and the female seems to be better and draws more hits from females as well as males. I really love the odor on the skin. It is extremely effective as I have stated elsewhere in other posts.
Good luck Thunder on your endeavors. You would have a licking wonder.
Elk

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I just read in another post that Erox\'s patent was for low concentrations... so I was thinking you\'d sell at higher concentrations anyway. Oh well. images/icons/frown.gif

So if you\'re not going to be making a profit off this anyway, maybe you could post guidlines to getting this stuff from steraloids.com.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

gents,

What is the problem? (thunder)?

As I understand it \"erox\'s\" patent is for -dienone as an additive for perfume. I do not see that there is any legal way they can stop individuals buying -dienone for personal use, they can only prevent you marketing \"scents\" containing it. -dienone is a chemical. It was NOT discovered by erox. As far as I understand, selling it in ethanol as a \"reagent\" is not an infringment of patent, nor is putting it on your body and spraying cologne on top!...

All that is required is a source of bulk supply and someone to break it down and dilute it....

As I have stated in other threads, badgering \"phero\" suppliers for the raw product (as in chemistry set)...

WE should all email stone labs & Lacroy and hassle for it!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah well i sent a email off to stone labs demanding well asking that they consider supply dienone to the public havent heard anything back but if others do it then it should increase attention to this idea.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

OK, so human kind may never know the potential of the one true human pheromone because of a patent...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Isn\'t that the way is always has been truth?

The establishment (government, church, ect) holding back science.

Ratspeaker, I\'m sure you\'re right about the use of the chems, however Erox could cause a legal hassle if they wanted to... I doubt they would though, my understanding is that Erox is having a hard time coming around to profitability.

Everyone, so what are the e-mail addresses of the phero companies? I really want to try -dienone. images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think I better contact Steraloids and stock before things get messier!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If you are serious Travis then email me at rickarmstrong3@attbi.com ....RatSpeaker and others... Erox\'s patent(which there are two) is for using the product as a perfume for a particular use, being a particular purpose. Which is activating the VNO. They word their patent so broad as to make it their right to mix -dienone with about any concoction to perform a fuction...being activating the VNO. I have spoken with Bruce and it\'s no go on this web site until someone paves the way. Oh yeah, Erox may not be doing so good but don\'t forget their big brother Pherin. If any of you want to draw up plans on marketing and production and invest with me then email me and we will discuss it. It will be an expensive product given the expense of the raw material and overhead. It would have to be on our own website, seperate from love-scent. We would be financially responsible for any legal actions taken. Furthermore once we do all the work and take the risk it will be about 2 seconds before their are a million other websites with the same stuff. Providing they can get the material, which was a tricky task, but as far as I know they set me up for an \"O.K. ,but only this once account. Meaning they would break protocol based on my conversatins with them. I have posted my email address before and have not heard anything from anyone. If anyone is really serious about working on this then email me. It\'s not all as easy as just whip it up and dish it out. I\'ll say one thing. I think I started the longest thread on this site!

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Thunder ]

[Naughtymonkey]

Can I make a few suggestions:~

Firstly, all patents require that you pay renewal fees to keep them in force. At the moment we don\'t know whether they have done this and therefore whether the patents are still alive. This I can check. Secondly, you are assuming that the patents are valid. Does anyone know whether there is prior art out there that suggests the use of dienone as a human pheromone before Erox\'s priority date? If so then we can use what is called in the UK a Gillette defence, its the same in the US. Essentially, the argument goes that we are doing what was published in the literature prior to the filing of the patent. It follows that we are either not infringing or if we are then the patent is invalid as covering what was already known. I\'ll take this mission on and let you know of the outcome.........

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thankyou!!!!!!!!!!

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hey Thunder:
could you explain to me again why you have to stop now and why your infringing on a patent? First: your anonymous now so whocares what your doing with what and to whom; Second: your not making a profit.
It\'s like I buy all the fragrance oils in DKNY and make my own and wear it. Who cares legalwise. Then I have heard of alot of these patents like:\"we have this in our product and nobody else can use it\". Your just selling a concentrated phero-alcohol product. Its more of an additive than fragrance.
Later and good luck.
you could probably still sell it to us just send us emails and will reply w/ whether we want to or not a little.
bey.Ds

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sorry to announce guys. I have as of today stop investing my money and time into this project. I would definately have to do battle with Erox. I could win. But they will try to make it as expensive as possible for me. Isn\'t America great. Big man keep\'in the little one down. Unless somebody wants to help me invest 20 - 30 thousand dollars in lawyer fees. Well.....
This sucks.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think the strongest argument against the Erox patent is that -dienone is a known component of human sweat along with -none and -nol, which has already been shown to be pig pheromones. The possibility of -dienone is a human pheromone is obvious to any expert in the field. You can\'t patent something considered to be obvious to any expert in the field.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Truth, do you really know what you are talking about. I pay attention and read every post. You are an avid member of the forum. But sometimes it seems you do not ...how can I say this...do your homework before you post. Not bashing, just asking.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

DaleSalsa. Do you really think setting up a web site and selling something would keep me anonymous. Second, Do you think I would be doing all of this research and massive amounts of what might turn out to be time waisting when I could be studying Cisco to not turn a profit. Do you think that Dr. James Kohl doesn\'t make a profit. How about Andro 4.2, same concept I want to do, they don\'t bottle, ship and market and do everything a business does for free. I would still like to eat while I smell good. images/icons/shocked.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, I ask more questions than give answers.

In terms of the patent, I don\'t know the details, but I do know that you can\'t just go ahead and patent an idea that\'s the next logical step in science. It has to be innovative enough such that dozens of others are not likely thinking the same idea. I\'m pretty sure -dienone was a known component of human sweat back when Erox received the patent not too long ago. They might have given the patent to Erox due to its investment in testing the pheromone, and proving that it activates the VNO.

Well, usually these issues are sorted out before a patent is awarded. I\'m not sure how easily a patent can be retracted for not being innovative enough once its awarded.

[Irish]

I sympathize with Thunder - I\'ve battled patent issues in the electronics arena as one man against the corporations. I lost.

We can pick apart the validity of Erox patents, but it\'s irrelevant. A patent examiner looked at their patent application and awarded it. That makes it valid. You could battle with an application of your own, or other legal tactics…prepare to spend money. I\'m sure your opponents have a handy bunch of legal eagles on staff ready to defend their patent, which they did have the foresight to obtain.

You could probably distribute this stuff in some way without technically infringing on their patent, but they would likely battle you anyway and make you fight an infringement case in court. You could win or lose, but it would cost you money either way.

Hell, corporations often deliberately infringe, especially on lone-citizen patent holders, cause they factor in the legal costs and exploit the market anyway. They know they can outlast the resources of one guy, and even if they lose the case they made their money.

This is a problem with our legal system of parasitic lawyers, not a technical problem with patent.

The real pity is that Erox stupidly does not put out a product that all of us would love to buy! They\'ve got the market on this stuff cornered, and they\'re not fully exploiting it!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

gents,

I dont think that \"erox\" or \"pherin\" can stop people purchasing -dienone\" as a \"chemical\" for their own use. Only if you market it for a purpose (that they hold a patent for) would you be liable to arouse them. Further, what is the geographic extent of their patent? I will try to check if they have filed anything in the UK. I can\'t believe that they have a \"worldwide\" patent on their products, thats if you can consider -dienone \"their product\". I understand your misgivings, the US seems to be very litigation happy (and you seem to be able to patent even water if you have a new twist on it!). Still, it doesnt matter as I don\'t think that selling dienone in ethanol as bottled \"dienone in ethanol\" would be of any interest to erox/pherin at all, since they don\'t seem to want to enter the \"attractant\" market. Still, you could always add it to the other \"chemicals\" found in human sweat, in the requisite proportions, and sell it as...\"Concentrated human sweat\" or some such BS. I hate the idea of some company patenting my bodily fluids....barstewards!

have a happy day and may we raise two fingers to erox.

ps maybe i\'ll email erox and see if they would sell some, should annoy them..

[PHP 87]

Again, if Steraloids can sell the raw form of A-dienone, why couldn\'t someone re-sell A-dienone in it\'s same raw form with perhaps instructions on how to mix it with ethanol without implying a specific use?

[Nutt]

if erox arent going after steraloids (sp?) then I think that someone could get away with selling crystals over the net. I know I\' buy, hell, if I werent in the UK Id try to buy direct from steraloids

How is this stuff made? could a easily prepared precursor be sold, and prepared by the purchaser?

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Nutz ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

gents

I have done a bit of research, and I see the extent of the problem. I dont like what I read, erox is nothing to worry about. They only have patents for use of dienone in perfume. Pherin on the other hand have 132 patents worldwide on the use of 16-androstenes to manipulate human function. This does not bode well for using dienone. I think as soon as you mix it with ethanol or any other accepted carrier you violate their patent, as it becomes a pharmacy product. The thing that worries me is that they seem to be determined to patent ALL use of androstenes to alter behaviour. Still, I dont think they will touch \"pig pheromones\" unless they find a \"novel\" use for them, but watch out these guys are after inventing a whole new approach to medicine via the nose! If you are interested a search on pherin at www.gb.espace.com (\"http://www.gb.espace.com\") will give you an idea of the extent of their patents, and more interestingly, just how far they have taken phero research. They are starting to target different receptors in the VNO to cause a variety of changes in human physiology. They seem to have even patented the dna map of these receptors. Still I think I will try mixing things with their \"pillow spray\"...I will of course persist in trying to find a source of dienone for personal use, but since, if pherin are to be believed, such a powerful chemical, it may well end up as a controlled substance as well.

congrats thunder on the longest thread here..

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Nutz, in a word, no. You would have to have either an organic sythesis lab, and then I am guessing you\'d have less then desirable results, or a biochem lab. I believe that unless you had the protocol for the chem lab, you\'d end up with tar. Unless you had a source of the enzymes, the precursors, and don\'t forget redox reagents, it would be impossible.

One other note, these thing are hydrophobic, so the ability the mess with them biochemically begins to become a problem (most biochem in a test tube is done in buffers, ie water.)

Finally the amount of EPA, and other govt agencies that are around, required paper work/certification/regulation would make this next to impossable. Sorry to be the messanger.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Walter Mitty ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thankyou RatSpeaker for doing your homework.

I also read through all of the Pherin material and boy do they want to control a lot of behavior the -dienone. It would not only be Erox I\'m fighting but as I\'ve said before \"the big brother\" The only thing I did not see Pherin describing anything about attracting the opposite sex, I\'m thinking they shelled that branch out to Erox as they are thinking of much bigger things than this. Alot of research and dollars have gone into their study. Also, I can only buy the product that specifically sais \"not for human or animal use,\" \"research use only.\" If I made a web page,bought a domain and said the hell with all the paper work and everything and just ordered and sold as for experimental purposes only. How long would I last. Long enough to recoup the money for the bottling, labeling, credit card gear, web page design and a makeshift accounting department.

Thanks for the congrats ratspeaker.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If any one want to pool their money we can get the cost down. Only thing I need a scale to measure that small. Remember. 5mg
comes out to about 6 grains of salt if that.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey, what happened to the thread on Natural Attraction?!

Thunder, so how much you can you get the price down on the -dienone by purchasing in quantity?

[Nutt]

Yeah, I suspected it wasent going to be a reaction you could stop one stage before and \' just add water\' or something images/icons/laugh.gif

I for one would probably buy raw crystals through a reseller, how about a \' group buy\' where a few of us buy crystals via one person dealing with steraloids? for research purposes on non human / animal subjects of course :-)

If you do this, I wouldent even mention adding ethanol, and be content with makeing a small profit to recoup the cost of buying your initial batch images/icons/smile.gif. I would suggest keeping it to this forum rather than opening a webpage, or at least keeping the webpage passworded to prevent getting on google or similar.

I doubt that a small operation like that would register on radar with erox, hell, maybe we could sell our research to em

images/icons/laugh.gif

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Nutz ]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, selling a batch to people on this thread is a good start. The -dienone needs to be real-world tested by other gurus on this forum before we invest more time pursuing legal battles. If it\'s a dud or no better than -none, -nol and -rone, then the battle is not worth it, and we hang it up. However, if 10-20 of us rave that this is the \"real deal\", then we start talking about legal battles.

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By the way, I just order the Natural Attraction unisex pillow spray presumed to contained -dienone. What happened to the thread?! Bruce, did you delete it?

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I wore -dienone tonightr the hell of it. Wasn\'t going any where special just to market An attractive female employer of King Stoopids who always rings me up because I go late at night is usually kind of short and snooty with me. This time She was getting awfully close and making conversation with me, even with a wedding ring on her fingerto . I kept trying to away because I sprayed one spray right on my neck right before I went in and I could smell it. I tried to cover it with Curve, which works well by the way, but it was still strong. It almost seemed the longer my solution set in the drawer, the stronger it got. As opposed to just mixing it and using it immediately. Any way I would call that a hit compared to previous behaviour by her.
Gent\'s...Thankyou for all your support and help. Walter....Kohl.....Bruce....Travis..sorry I cant name everyone. I have family coming into town and and done with this project . It\'s being shelfed. If anyone wants to talk further you have my email
rickarmstrong3@attbi.com

I cannot spend anymore time on this. I have Cisco to worry about I\'ve put off to obssess about this.I\'m done with this thread. Thanks again for the longest running thread ever.

Thunder

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I dunno if i\'m the odd one out here or something, but it seems like a lot of people on this thread are willing to pay a lot of extra money to get what Thunder made, or are(where) very anxious to see him market it. Why doesn\'t everyone just make thier own? I know it might be a bit of a hassle to mix it together and all, but it seems like a worthwhile endeavor. I myself am going to be doing this shortly.

I thought the problem might have been with the availability of 3,16-androstadien-3-one, since steraloids required Thunder to make a business account...but the same day I saw this I thought it would be an interesting idea to try. In 10 minutes I found a dozen other suppliers of the pure form of 3,16-androstadien-3-one. I sent emails to all of them asking if they sold to private individuals, and recieved a positive response from one of them within two days. As soon as shipping arrangements are made, I plan to order a 5mg vial and try to reproduce Thunder\'s experiment.

If all goes well, I\'ll try to keep you posted on the results (I\'d start a new thread though, this seems pretty long...)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Namtohecin, what company did you get a positive response from?

I\'ve thought about it... I think most suppliers would sell to individuals as long as you called & politely asked about it, making it a point that the chems in question are not scheduled (at least in the USA.)

What kind of different price ranges did you find amoung the different suppliers?

[Watcher]

Could it be possibe to set up a supply operation outside of the US say in europe australasia or africa or something im sure there are many suppliers of this androgen around the world (i heard something about australian customs requiring a import license to import any androgens to that country except there are at least 7 suppliers of human pheromone products down there including a727 and attraction) so that doesnt make sense remembering a problem DD had with customs a while back. And there was someone else even earlier who had problems except most shipments get through without problems ?????? all over the place in that country and also in the UK there have been missing shipments that disappear.

[Watcher]

Could it be possibe to set up a supply operation outside of the US say in europe australasia or africa or something im sure there are many suppliers of this androgen around the world (i heard something about australian customs requiring a import license to import any androgens to that country except there are at least 7 suppliers of human pheromone products down there including a727 and attraction) so that doesnt make sense remembering a problem DD had with customs a while back. And there was someone else even earlier who had problems except most shipments get through without problems ?????? all over the place in that country and also in the UK there have been missing shipments that disappear.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, what company did you hear a positive response from. By the way, I think it\'s 4-16... not 3-16...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah it is 4-16, but lets not split hairs (3-16 is not possible, chemically speaking) But, after following this thread for quite some time, I have one notion that came to mind. If you were sold the raw chemical, and it is not a controlled substance, I don\'t see how this infringes on anything. If there are willing outlets for it, then they will supply a chemical. I don\'t think that Sigma could sue Fisher for selling a chemical. Quite honestly, I don\'t care if it is the missing ingredient that we\'ve all been waiting for. I\'d rather have some fun playing.

PS, Thunder, give yourself credit for getting the ball rolling. Now the rest of us are acting like Calvin when he got a nickle raise in his allowence (Now I can rule the world, Mwaaah ha ha ha!) Oh yeah, you should have enough to last you quite some time too...

[Nutt]

Im sceptical as to wether this stuff is as good as people seem to be hopeing, but I definatly wouldent trying it. I always assumed steraloids was the only supplier ( at least on the net :-) ) but if anyones done a little research into it then feel free to post a list of suppliers, and ther price lists for -dienone if ya have em images/icons/laugh.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Thanks Walter...At the present rate I could probably go everyday twice a day for a monts and a half to two months. I checked out the other supplier. Looks kinda shady, but the chemical is listed there. No Price, no amounts, no order form, just email address and phone number in China. Shipping would be huge and be a long wait. If Namtohecim is right we should know in a month or two. I order other things over seas sometimes and unless your ready to pay big then get ready to check you mail box every day for a long long time.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The chemical company Thunder is talking about is ThinkerChem, which is the chemical company that gave me the positive reply. And yes, the \"3\",16-(etc) was a typo. What I am talking about is the \"4\",16-androstadien-3-one. Communication between me and them is kinda slow, the first reply took about 3 or 4 days. They are currently getting me a shipping price/chemical price. As it is based in China, I believe the long delay might be a result of the language barrier. Also, as Thunder said, I don\'t expect to be recieving the product anytime soon, as it is being shipping from China overseas. I am optimistically hoping for about a month long timeline or so. As I said before though, when I get more information, and/or recieve the product, I will start a new thread to discuss it. Things are kinda busy with me right now and I don\'t normally have time to check back here (sorry for the delay in posting, btw. I know some of you have been waiting). When I get more info, I will keep you up to date, though.