Does Putin have a soul?

[Alex157]

Does Putin have a soul?


HAMPTON, New Hampshire

(Reuters) - Sen. Hillary Clinton, campaigning on Sunday ahead of New Hampshire's critical presidential primary,

declared in response to a voter's question that Russian President Vladimir Putin "doesn't have a soul."

…


http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/07/hillary_clinton_campaigning_ponders_putins_soul/



Why Hillary is so sure that the KGB’s officers have no souls? :) . What if Hillary is elected

and it will be found out that Medvedev has not a soul too? It may spoil relations between two countries :).


I do not think that it is right to state such things…

[belgareth]

No, it isn't right to say such

things. In her case we have to wonder if her statement had any meaning other than political hyperbole. After all, do

democrats and Hillary in particular have religion? Sometimes I wonder.

At the same time, it isn't right for a

citizen of one country to become involved in the politics of another.

[Alex157]

No, it isn't right to say such things. In her case we have to wonder if her

statement had any meaning other than political hyperbole. After all, do democrats and Hillary in particular have

religion? Sometimes I wonder.





Actually, in fact the Soviet morality didn’t deny existing of a soul.

Marx just stated that the material stuff is primary. So I am sure that both Putin and Hillary have souls :)





At the same time,

it isn't right for a citizen of one country to become involved in the politics of another.



Well, the problem is that nobody

obeys this rule and Putin with his guys first :)
Say, it is a civil war in a country

and there are good and bad guys there (well, from my point of view, of course) and I am able to help good guys. I

think it was a terrible mistake of the Western powers that they didn’t fulfill a full-scale intervention in Russia

in 1918.

[belgareth]

I never said anything about

Soviet morality, only Clinton's, something I doubt exists. It isn't even morality but spirituality but the

statement still applies.

Does the fact that another does not obey a rule make it right for us to disobey the

rule? Not in my opinion.

I also disagree on the intervention. We are wrong to interfere with other nations now

and we would have ben wrong then. That is the very basic precept of the democracy we tout. Each has their right to

choose their own course so long as that course does not interfere with another person or country's freedom to

choose.

[Alex157]

I never said anything about Soviet morality, only Clinton's






Yes, I commented on her statement :)








Does the fact that another does not obey a rule make it right

for us to disobey the rule? Not in my opinion.





Sure, sure, but it is difficult to obey rules when nobody doesn’t want

to do it :)



I

also disagree on the intervention. We are wrong to interfere with other nations now and we would have ben wrong

then.




Well, however you had to interfere in 1941 all the same. Was it possible

then not to interfere? It would be a betrayal of your ally Britain.





Each has their

right to choose their own course so long as that course does not interfere with another person or country's freedom

to choose.




But the Bolsheviks positively interfered with many other persons in

Russia and other places as well. If a government violates the rights of citizens is it interference with other

persons?

[Rbt]

Well, however you had to

interfere in 1941 all the same. Was it possible then not to interfere? It would be a betrayal of your ally Britain.





If you are speaking of WWII, the US only entered the war formally after the attack on the US Navy

at Pearl Harbor. Not sure why the US didn't get more involved after the invasion of the Phillipines but I'm not

fully up on that part of history.

The US at the time had a policy of non-involvement (military) otherwise. There

was economic support of Britain and other countries before the formal declaration of war. If I recall the US only

got involved in the European theater due to the military/political link between Japan and Germany.

Politics is

strange... Even though the US was "friends" with France for example at that time, we did not get militarily involved

with the war even after France's colonies in Asia (eg Veitnam) were invaded by the Japanese. During/after WWII we

got roped into some sort of treaty with France about coming to their aid if they or one of their possessions was

invaded which is how we got mixed up with the communist "invasion" in Veitnam in the 60's-70's (thanks Mr.

Truman...).

[Alex157]

If you are speaking of WWII, the US only entered the war formally after the

attack on the US Navy at Pearl Harbor. Not sure why the US didn't get more involved after the invasion of the

Phillipines but I'm not fully up on that part of history.
The US at the time had a policy of non-involvement

(military) otherwise. There was economic support of Britain and other countries before the formal declaration of

war.




Economic support of Britain included sending ships there and since the

Nazis tried to sink them, of course, the ships had to be guarded and it meant a direct war against German.







If I recall the US only got involved in the European theater due

to the military/political link between Japan and Germany.





Well, I don’t think that Germany was that much involved in war in Asia

to consider it. America had to decide whether it supported England (and it meant a direct war against Germany) or

not. Yes, I am sure that many citizens of the US would prefer not to be involved, but the politicians knew that

there was no choice.





Politics is strange... Even though the US was "friends" with

France for example at that time, we did not get militarily involved with the war even after France's colonies in

Asia (eg Veitnam) were invaded by the Japanese. During/after WWII we got roped into some sort of treaty with France

about coming to their aid if they or one of their possessions was invaded which is how we got mixed up with the

communist "invasion" in Veitnam in the 60's-70's (thanks Mr. Truman...).



Always, there is a politician who can be

thanked for a war. In Europe, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Serbia, Iraq…



As for ‘friendship’ and getting roped now everything is simpler. An attack at any

member of NATO means an attack at all others according to the treaty.

[Rbt]

Economic support of Britain

included sending ships there and since the Nazis tried to sink them, of course, the ships had to be guarded and it

meant a direct war against German.

Actually no. You can defend your ships (or anything else) but not be

in a "direct" war. You would be if you were actively attacking *them*. Switzerland (which remained neutral) had

it's army guarding it's borders as a defense, but was not in a "direct war" with Germany or the Axis powers.



At first I think most of the convoys of ships (including American ships) were guarded primarily by the British

Navy.

[Alex157]

Actually no. You can defend your ships (or anything else) but not be in a

"direct" war.




Yes, sure. But I don’t think it was the case in the WWII. As well

as in any wartime either. Say, Iran (or any other countries) would send convoys with weapons to anti-American troops

in Iraq. I doubt very much that it would be possible for them just ‘defend’ their ships without real

fighting against the American Navy.
If you support my enemy you are my

enemy too.





You would be if you were actively attacking *them*.






Without no doubt, I think, it will be so in most cases.








Switzerland (which

remained neutral) had it's army guarding it's borders as a defense, but was not in a "direct war" with Germany or

the Axis powers.





There was not any reason for Hitler to attack Switzerland. Money and

gold are useless in a world war (your enemies woun’t sell you anything and your allies are figting too so are

not able to sell food and weapons), so he knew that he could do it after the victory. If Switzerland helped somebody

in the anti-Hitler coalition it would be crushed in a moment.




At first I think most of the convoys of ships (including

American ships) were guarded primarily by the British Navy.

I think it was so in the first perion of the war. Then logic of war

demanded for more and more wide interference.

[idesign]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/07/hillary_clinton_campaigning_ponders_putins_soul/



Why Hillary is so sure that the KGB’s officers have no souls? :) . What if Hillary is

elected and it will be found out that Medvedev has not a soul too? It may spoil relations between two countries :).


I do not think that it is right to state such things…

I agree

Alex.

What Hillary Clinton says is always calculated to achieve a marketing effect for her candidacy, pure

self-interst, nothing more or less. She is a loose cannon when it comes to international affairs, having no

experience, incomplete information, childishly naive understanding and a ruthless instinct to get what she only

thinks she deserves.

She recently made a comment about Pakistan's leader concerning Bhutto's assasination

which was immediately and rightly rebuked by that gov't. Irresponsible at best, and dangerous if anyone took her

seriously, which no real thinking person could do.

She's the poster child for nanny state proponents who believe

"if I only ruled the world...."

What does that have to do with the Russians? History. More on that if

anyone's interested.

BTW, Alex, where are you from? Just curious.

[Alex157]

What Hillary Clinton says is always calculated to achieve a marketing effect for her candidacy, pure

self-interst, nothing more or less. She is a loose cannon when it comes to international affairs, having no

experience, incomplete information, childishly naive understanding and a ruthless instinct to get what she only

thinks she deserves.


Yes, many say about her the

same things… It is strange, her husband is nobody’s fool, I think :)


She recently made a comment about Pakistan's leader concerning Bhutto's assasination which was

immediately and rightly rebuked by that gov't. Irresponsible at best, and dangerous if anyone took her seriously,

which no real thinking person could do.





I think that it is very bad for a politician :). Indeed, an

average Joe from the street may say anything he wants, but a politician should be responsible for every word he/she

says.



What does that have to do with the Russians?

History. More on that if anyone's interested.


Yes,

sure!


BTW, Alex, where are you from? Just curious.



I am a

Russian, I live in Moscow. By the way, it seems to me that Alex is a female name in the States. I am a male. It is

always a problem in English :). In Russian you have to write just a couple of words and your gender is clear.

[Rbt]

I'm in midwest US and I am pretty

sure that "Alex" isusually considered a male name. I can think of a number of Alexes right now, and they are all

male.

(Alex Trebek, actor; 2 sports figures at least; but I grant Alex Doonsebury [comic strip character-

cable TV show] was female...)

[Alex157]

Great! Usually Alexes whom I met

were female, so I decided that in the US it is a female name :).
For example, I am watching 'what women want'

and the name of Gibson's daughter in the movie is Alex.
Alexander Baldwin, though, sometimes is Alec and

sometimes Alex...

Actually, there is nos such an official name in Russian (it is used as a nickname only in

imitation of the West) so I decided to make it clear :)

[idesign]

Agree with Rbt on the name Alex,

but some women have that nickname, diminutive for Alexandra or Alexis.

I've always appreciated the Russian

custom of making the middle name a patronymic. Alexandrovna is both lovely and respectful.

My remark about

Hillary and the Russians has mostly to do with socialism than anything else, which has changed in Russia, but you

can tell us better from your place.

Hillary has an "oligarchy" mentality, which, in her case, blends socialism

with a "right" for her clan (liberalism) to rule for the "common good". She uses her own concept of the "collective"

to push ideals which most of the population would reject if they knew what she was actually representing. Of course

she is not honest in representing her real motives.

This is not a direct comparison to the former Soviet state,

but perhaps more applicable in comparing to Putin.

A socialist leaning joined with a sensibility which assumes

there is a "right" to power is perhaps the most dangerous political ideal. I can't help but think there is a

Czarist mixed with October Red mentality driving Putin.

In Hillary's case the appeal to the "common good" is

both seductive and evil, as Bolshevism has proven to be true. In Putin's case there seems to be a shift toward

Czarist oligarchy, which is what Hillary and her machine would love to achieve with her idealist control over

personal lives. Idealism is all about control, subject to a shifting and nebulous definition of "what's best" for

you and me.

In Russia, it seems there has always been a desire for a strong leader to gather the Russian lands

and anchor the Rus in a solid mooring. In America, the opposite is true, we have rejected kings and tyrants. Until

now. There is a tyranny which nobody recognizes until it is in their house and is eating all their food.

In a

very loose way Putin and Hillary are traveling the same path, in different spheres.

Its amazing to me how much of

our American population is willing to give up their ability and right to prosper freely to a gov't which will

appropriate the fruit of their labor at the whim of politicians.

I'm thankful that I live in America, and hope

for more than our current political climate offers.

PS Alex, I've made some assumptions, please correct me when

I'm wrong.

[tounge]

Greg, fantastic appraisal of

Hillary Clinton. She shares the same philosophy of Chavez in Venezuela and Ortega in Nicaragua. The USA and the rest

of the world are about to enter very dangerous and hard times.

Many people who have studied her, consider her

an avowed Leninist.:run:

[Rbt]

But, of course, as it seems with any

political election in this country in my memory of late, it always seems to come down to a choice of the lesser of

the evils...

It's been ages since I voted FOR someone rather than AGAINST the worst of the choices.




:rant:

<sigh>

:frustrate

And I have yet to see any really clear cut differences between the two

major political parties. Same crap, different names. No real choice. Just cover your own ass and hope to make it

through the next series of created crises and "pending disasters."

[Alex157]

Agree with Rbt on the name Alex, but some women have that

nickname, diminutive for Alexandra or Alexis.


It seems that

it is equal to the situation with the male name Alex in Russia. Here it is a half-jocular nickname for Alexander or

Alexey.


I've always appreciated the Russian custom of making

the middle name a patronymic. Alexandrovna is both lovely and respectful.



There was an Englishman in

the Soviet Union who taught English. And his new Russian name became Richard Richardovich Dixon. :)




Alex, I've made

some assumptions, please correct me when I'm wrong.



I mostly agree with you, Idesign, but I think that many in the West

underestimate what happened in 90s in Russia.
Yes, the US is a very

liberal country. However, I know one thing about the US for sure. A friend of my father is a pensioner and he hadn’t

worked a day in the US. But he has an apartment, medical care which in the SU had top communist bosses only and the

like. During our capitalist reforms the old folks became just dirt under feet. As well as invalids and anybody who

was not able to build capitalism with the nails and teeth.
Also whole

cites began to be controlled by gangsters. Posts of mayors or governors were just bought by them. So Putin in some

sense just returned the country to more or less normal conditions. And since the citizens didn’t want to do anything

everything was done by the Kremlin.
And I wouldn’t say that Putin is

trying to control me.

There

was a soviet joke. A guy comes to the office in a rumpled shirt and answers the boss to his question. I got up in

the morning and switched on the TV set. It was a translation of the 24th meeting of the Communist party of the

Soviet Union. Then I switched on radio. It was a translation of the 24th meeting of the Communist party of the

Soviet Union. I didn’t even try to switch on an electric iron.



There is nothing like this now. I read and write in the Net everything I

want. Nobody blocks sites, moreover the government tries to computerize all the country. For $3-4 a month I can get

70 channels including the CNN and Euronews through the telephone connection. Euronews are even broadcasted by an

open standard channel with a translation in Russian. Nobody says me what I should watch – the CNN or Russian

channels. The only thing Putin wants in return is that I wouldn’t interfere in his affairs too :)


He is building capitalism and doesn’t want me hamper him. And it is OK

by the majority of people since all his opponents proved that they cannot suggest anything better. On the contrary,

everybody knows that they would just make things worse.

[idesign]

There was an Englishman in the Soviet Union who taught

English. And his new Russian name became Richard Richardovich Dixon. :)



:lol: Dangerously close to an American politician. Using

nicknames he would be "Tricky Dick Dickovich Nixon".





I mostly agree with you, Idesign, but I think that many in the

West underestimate what happened in 90s in Russia.
Yes, the US is a very

liberal country. However, I know one thing about the US for sure. A friend of my father is a pensioner and he

hadn’t worked a day in the US. But he has an apartment, medical care which in the SU had top communist bosses

only and the like. During our capitalist reforms the old folks became just dirt under feet. As well as invalids and

anybody who was not able to build capitalism with the nails and teeth.


Also whole cites began to be controlled by gangsters. Posts of mayors or

governors were just bought by them. So Putin in some sense just returned the country to more or less normal

conditions. And since the citizens didn’t want to do anything everything was done by the Kremlin.


And I wouldn’t say that Putin is trying to control me.



Understood. The parallels with the US are limited I know.

Putin has a very different set of circumstances. Since there is no democratic tradition in Russia he must play his

role as benevolent dictator. Interesting that you said "back to normal", it is reminiscent of Czarist Russia no?



The oligarchy/mafia scheme was inevitable, as they were the only ones in place to fill the power/economic void

left by a dead Soviet system. On the other hand, the Soviets had a cabal of powerful people who ran everything

(aparatchiks), and many of them are the same characters operating in a different system. At least the

Communist/totalitarian control is gone, along with the Glorious Meeting of the 24th Komsomol/Comintern/Commitetye

Sovietskiye.

The ones caught in the middle are the ones who had their life and spirit sucked out of them by the

Soviet system, one might even say soul. All incentive was drained from a huge segment of population which is

capable of turning Russia into a greater nation than it already is. Who knows how many generations it will take

before the mentality of the "collective" leaves the minds of your people.




There was a soviet joke. A guy comes to the office in a rumpled

shirt and answers the boss to his question. I got up in the morning and switched on the TV set. It was a translation

of the 24th meeting of the Communist party of the Soviet Union. Then I switched on radio. It was a translation of

the 24th meeting of the Communist party of the Soviet Union. I didn’t even try to switch on an electric iron.



Very funny! It reminds me of myself when I turn on the TV and

hear most of the mainstream media gibberish which passes as "news". Fortunately for both of us, we have many

alternatives to the old

monopoly.



Nobody says me what I should watch – the CNN or Russian channels. The only thing Putin wants in return

is that I wouldn’t interfere in his affairs too :)
He is building

capitalism and doesn’t want me hamper him. And it is OK by the majority of people since all his opponents

proved that they cannot suggest anything better. On the contrary, everybody knows that they would just make things

worse.

By these comments I know that you are Russian! Welcome moi droog, we must drink

together some day. Your pragmatic optimism is a trait which many can learn from.

I'm genuinely curious Alex,

how long and how far do you think Putin can rule this way? Where do you think the nature of politics is going? Do

you think Russia needs a "Czar" like Putin or someone equally strong?

Good discussion, thank you.
Greg

[idesign]

She shares

the same philosophy of Chavez in Venezuela and Ortega in Nicaragua. The USA and the rest of the world are about to

enter very dangerous and hard times.

Many people who have studied her, consider her an avowed

Leninist.:run:


I can see that Tongue. Its not such a far stretch from "Workers of the World Unite" to

"It Takes a Village to Raise a Child". At least Lenin told you up front what he was planning. Hillary's most

dangerous evil is her calculated deception.

And lets not forget Obama, he may be worse in that he's charismatic

and says nothing at all of any substance. Regurgitation with a nice smile.

Without being alarmist, I cautiously

agree with the remark about dangerous and hard times. There is a fundamental shift in political, economic and

social dynamics both within and between nations that I don't think many recognize, much less comprehend. The US

could be poised for disaster if it doesn't get its house in order.

All the while our US leaders are engaging in

the most trivial and pointless debates, esp on the Dem side. The GOP is only slightly better. As Rbt said, the

choices are not that great.

[tounge]

Hillary's

most dangerous evil is her calculated deception. (Yes. To the Marxist, the LIE is a sacred tool to advance their

cause. Hillary is a dialectic in the Marxist tradition.)

And lets not forget Obama, he may be worse in that

he's charismatic and says nothing at all of any substance. Regurgitation with a nice smile.
(Agreed. He is an

empty suit who brings nothing whatsoever to the table.)

All the while our US leaders are engaging in the most

trivial and pointless debates, esp on the Dem side. The GOP is only slightly better. As Rbt said, the choices are

not that great.

( Agreed, the GOP although head and shoulders above the Democrats, are clueless as to he

direction the USA needs to go for it to continue to be a viable player on the world stage in the next quarter

century.)

[Alex157]

Dangerously close to an American politician. Using nicknames he would be "Tricky

Dick Dickovich Nixon".



I was said that his answer was ‘I am not a crook’ :)





Understood. The

parallels with the US are limited I know. Putin has a very different set of circumstances. Since there is no

democratic tradition in Russia he must play his role as benevolent dictator.



Yes, I think that

it is his point.




Interesting that you said "back to normal", it is reminiscent of Czarist Russia no?




No, I think that the fact that autocracy lasted so long in

Russia was the main cause of all troubles.
When I said ‘back to normal’

I meant that now the police controls cities not bandits, old folks get some pensions and the like.





The

oligarchy/mafia scheme was inevitable, as they were the only ones in place to fill the power/economic void left by a

dead Soviet system. On the other hand, the Soviets had a cabal of powerful people who ran everything (aparatchiks),

and many of them are the same characters operating in a different system. At least the Communist/totalitarian

control is gone, along with the Glorious Meeting of the 24th Komsomol/Comintern/Commitetye Sovietskiye.




The problem is, I believe, that the reforms of 90s hadn’t

touched the bases of the Soviet system. Actually, Soviet economic of the Brezhnev’s era was a mix between a Marxist

control on factories and the black market. The reformers just legalized the black market but it didn’t change the

core things.


The ones caught in the middle are the ones who

had their life and spirit sucked out of them by the Soviet system, one might even say soul. All incentive was

drained from a huge segment of population which is capable of turning Russia into a greater nation than it already

is. Who knows how many generations it will take before the mentality of the "collective" leaves the minds of your

people.

Yes, Russia

lost several millions of her best citizens and I am not sure that we will be able to rise again.


And indeed it’ll take a long long time till our distorted mentality will

change.


By these

comments I know that you are Russian! Welcome moi droog



Òû

çÃÃåøü

ðóññêèé?

:)





we must drink together some day. Your pragmatic optimism is a

trait which many can learn from.





I am ready to drink (I prefer Scottish whisky :) ), and we are optimists

indeed, but our optimism is not pragmatic :). It is based on two main Russian conceptual words ‘avos’ and ‘nebos’.

Say, you drive to a river and see that the bridge may collapse any moment. If you a Russian you would say ‘nebos, it

won’t collapse’ and ‘avos I will be able to cross it’. With these words you should drive over the bridge without any

thoughts :)



I'm

genuinely curious Alex, how long and how far do you think Putin can rule this way?






Greg, I am sure that Putin well understands that such a system which is

based on one person is unstable. Definitely there is a plan of building of a two party-system in Russia. There is

already a party which is planned for this role. However, will it be a real political system or just an imitation as

it often happens here we’ll see soon :)





Where do you think

the nature of politics is going? Do you think Russia needs a "Czar" like Putin or someone equally strong?





I think that

nobody who can rule his/her life doesn’t need any czars. But definitely this dream of a good and kind czar is in

Russian mentality. The problem is that czars are never good and kind :)

[idesign]

Ok, Putin and the Kremlin

understand the need for a two-party system, will they say 'nebos and 'avos?

One thing that concerns me is the

way Putin handled himself during the Ukranian election a few years ago. Also his most recent "sabre rattling"

exercises. He's a strong-man in Ivan IV's clothing, but I think perhaps he knows he can't get away with it.

I

hope it is as you say, and there will be a true choice. The only remaining question is does Russia have a leader

who will come from the people to lead a new party? Say, a Peter in Gorbachov clothing? Maybe Peter is not the best

choice for that example, but you understand.

к вашему

здоровью :cheers:

[idesign]

( Agreed,

the GOP although head and shoulders above the Democrats, are clueless as to he direction the USA needs to go for it

to continue to be a viable player on the world stage in the next quarter century.)

Unfortunately, part of

the "head and shoulders" party of the first part just quit the race. Fred Thompson was the only *true* conservative

of the bunch.

While any of the others are a better choice than either of the Dems, it now comes down to

compromise.

[Alex157]

Ok, Putin and the Kremlin understand the need for a two-party system, will they

say 'nebos and 'avos?



Well, Putin is not quite

Russian. That is, he is an ethnic Russian, of course, but he has been a spy in Germany for 10 years and adopted a

lot from German mentality, I think. :)
There is our famous movie hero a

shtandartenfurer SS Shtirliz (who was in reality our Russian agent, of course) and Putin is something like this :)





One thing that concerns me is the way Putin handled

himself during the Ukranian election a few years ago.




Well, nobody’s perfect :)





Also his most recent "sabre rattling" exercises. He's a strong-man in Ivan

IV's clothing, but I think perhaps he knows he can't get away with it.



I hope it is as you say, and there will be a true choice.

The only remaining question is does Russia have a leader who will come from the people to lead a new party?




No, it is out of consideration :) . It should be a guy

from the Kremlin who would coordinate all his actions with it. If there is a second strong leader it will be a civil

war.



Say, a Peter in Gorbachov clothing? Maybe Peter is

not the best choice for that example, but you understand.





Yes, the Russian population had lessened by third under Peter :) No, I think that a

plan is that it should be a second party controlled by the Kremlin and when people get used to a notion that after

electing a new leader heavens won’t come down to Russia with angels who will work for us it will be possible

to make the system more realistic.




к вашему здоровью





I have heard that Russians in movies say ‘na zdorovie’? Is it true? We never say it in

reality :)

Поднимем

наши стаканы за две

великие нации –

русских и

американцев :)

[idesign]

Поднимем наши

стаканы за две

великие нации –

русских и

американцев

"Let us raise our glasses to two

great nations - Russia and America".

очень

хорошо, I owe you a bottle of Scotch Whiskey.

Yes, I have heard "na zdorovie"

in the movies (Local Hero), but in my post I simply translated "to your health" in a translator. My Russian is 25

years old and has not aged as well as a good whiskey.

I appreciate your insight Alexander. What is your

patromymic?

I will think about your reply and will certainly ask more questions.

[Alex157]

î÷åÃü

õîðîøî, I owe you a bottle of

Scotch Whiskey.





OK, and I owe you a bottle of vodka :) Do you remember as they changed

their watches in ‘Red Hot’? :)





Yes, I have heard "na zdorovie" in the movies (Local Hero),

but in my post I simply translated "to your health" in a translator. My Russian is 25 years old and has not aged as

well as a good whiskey.





Well, a bit more accurate would be ‘za tvoje/vashe zdorovje’ but your

Russian is still quite OK :)






I appreciate your

insight Alexander. What is your patromymic?



No, I am

Alexey - as it was a real name of Gorky, not as Pushkin’s :)



I am Alexey Lvovich, how is your one? :)

[idesign]

Understood, but I never saw "Red

Hot", is it good? Who are the primary actors?

Ok good Alexey, Gorky and Pushkin are two very interesting and

different men. I think you are more like Pushkin in ideals if not name.

We do not use patromymics, so I could be

either Yosef Grigorovich, or Odelovich using my father's name.

To be honest, I prefer whiskey too, so we should

have a wonderful time drinking. :)

We in America look eagerly toward political and social change in Russia, and

we also understand that it is Russia who will determine her future. I'm glad that we are now "friends", and of

course we wish to remain friends. Sometimes it is difficult among friends to achieve a balance as we know.

A

question: what do you think is the most desired social change among most of the population? I assume it would be

economic. If so, do you look mostly for economic freedom? Do you think Russia mostly desires for a Western ideal

of economic success?

More interestingly, do you care so much about the political system if the economic benefits

are good on the street? Assuming that the successor to Putin will follow his policies, do you think those policies

are oriented more to achieving a place in some new world order or a new Russian independence or dominance?

A lot

of questions, sorry, but I look forward to your answer.

Greg

[Alex157]

Understood, but I never saw "Red Hot", is it good? Who are the primary

actors?





Well, it was popular in Russia (as well as all movies

with the governator, though). Another leading role was played by Belushi.


There were some funny lines there. For example, the

Soviet policeman suggested to his American colleague (played by Belushi) to shoot all drug dealers and the like. He

said that it would be a good idea, but politicians won’t allow this. ‘Shoot them first’ was an answer.







Ok good Alexey, Gorky and Pushkin are two very

interesting and different men. I think you are more like Pushkin in ideals if not name.







I heard that the main reason why Pushkin wrote verses was

that he always had huge card debts and tried to get some money to pay :)










We do not use

patromymics






It is not of any importance :). As long as a person knows

the name of his father he/she has patronymics :). If not, the patronymics will be thought up :)






so I could be either Yosef Grigorovich, or

Odelovich using my father's name.





Why Yosef? Greg is quite OK :) And it cannot be two ones

:). What is the name of your father?








To be honest, I prefer whiskey too, so we

should have a wonderful time drinking.

[/

quote]





OK, I prefer Johnny Walker. I think that it a lady’s

drink but I don’t like hard drinks.




[quote] We in America look eagerly toward political and

social change in Russia, and we also understand that it is Russia who will determine her future. I'm glad that we

are now "friends", and of course we wish to remain friends. Sometimes it is difficult among friends to achieve a

balance as we know.





Yeah, it is the last thing I would want – to have the US

as enemy again.





A question: what do you think is the most

desired social change among most of the population? I assume it would be economic. If so, do you look mostly for

economic freedom?






Actually, I am not sure. I think that economy is only a

part of politics. Again, you never are able to create good economy without political stability.


Why everybody is glad to keep money in Switzerland? It is

a safe place, in the center of Europe and NATO defends my beloved money (no matter that Switzerland itself is not a

member of it).
The problem is that everybody knows that

any second the government may rob people. Nobody will be surprised if tomorrow it will be announced that all rubles

should be changed in proportion 1:10 after showing papers where they come from. In Moscow there are exchange booths

at each corner and we keep our money in dollars and euros. Nobody trusts rubles, nobody trusts the government. So

rich people just make money here and have some infrastructure for the recreation – brothels and small gyms. They try

to send serious money abroad.
It is very difficult to

develop economy under such political and social circumstances.






Do you think Russia mostly desires for a Western

ideal of economic success?





Politically we are total morons, so it doesn’t matter

what we desire :). I think that we desperately need for colleges of high economical and political education. When

there are several thousands educated Russian guys – it will be possible to discuss what they want.


However, I think yes, many prefer the Western way of

economics now.





More interestingly, do you care so much about

the political system if the economic benefits are good on the street?








Sure, sure. Without a firm political system everything

may collapse in a second. It happened in 1998 already.










Assuming that the successor to Putin will follow

his policies, do you think those policies are oriented more to achieving a place in some new world order or a new

Russian independence or dominance?


I think

that Medvedev is a quite pro-Western politician and he’s going to continue to try to find a place under the

capitalists sun for Russia.




Greg, who do you think is going to be the next president of the US? :)

[Rbt]

I'm thinking there is a bit of a

translation thing here... the movie I recall I think was called "Red Heat" not "Red Hot"...

[idesign]

Well, it was popular in Russia (as well as all movies

with the governator, though). Another leading role was played by Belushi.


There were some funny lines there. For example, the

Soviet policeman suggested to his American colleague (played by Belushi) to shoot all drug dealers and the like. He

said that it would be a good idea, but politicians won’t allow this. ‘Shoot them first’ was an

answer.

You might also add the

lawyers...



I heard that the

main reason why Pushkin wrote verses was that he always had huge card debts and tried to get some money to pay :)



Ok Alex, we will not drink and play cards in

the same evening, unless you are like Pushkin. :) But if I win, you could pay your debt with a poem that would win

the heart of a lovely Russian woman.





Why Yosef? Greg is quite OK :) And it cannot be two

ones :). What is the name of your father?

My

name is Joseph Gregory. My father is Odell.




OK, I prefer Johnny Walker. I think that it a

lady’s drink but I don’t like hard drinks.



Johnny Walker is a good drink, but I prefer

single malt scotch, there are many. I will bring you a bottle of Glenmorangie. Scotch is definitely not a lady's

drink, but some women will drink it. I will tell you a story when we are drinking Scotch

together.
[/quote]



Yeah, it is

the last thing I would want – to have the US as enemy again.



Actually, I am not sure. I think that economy is only a

part of politics. Again, you never are able to create good economy without political stability.


Why everybody is glad to keep money in Switzerland? It is

a safe place, in the center of Europe and NATO defends my beloved money (no matter that Switzerland itself is not a

member of it).
The problem is that everybody knows that

any second the government may rob people. Nobody will be surprised if tomorrow it will be announced that all rubles

should be changed in proportion 1:10 after showing papers where they come from. In Moscow there are exchange booths

at each corner and we keep our money in dollars and euros. Nobody trusts rubles, nobody trusts the government.



I understand, it is the same worry that the

West has with Putin. He is seen as a figure who is not known, and not predictable. Also, the history of Russia

will always be "an enigma wrapped in a mystery". As with all countries, history and culture are a weight which

moves slowly and with much effort.




So rich people just make money here

and have some infrastructure for the recreation – brothels and small gyms.



So, you are saying that the prostitutes are in

good physical shape? Maybe I will visit you soon.

:)


They try to send serious money

abroad.
It is very difficult to develop economy under

such political and social circumstances.

Yes,

capitalism suffers when capital leaves the country. Its too bad. Political stability is the first requirement, you

know this. That is the main question with the Putin dynasty. They must create an environment of national stability

and growth.

You are right, politics will lead economics, and in Russia there has never been an environment

conducive to capitalism.





Politically we are total

morons, so it doesn’t matter what we desire :).



Again, spoken like nobody but a Russian can

speak. You are a wonderful people waiting to be born into the world. What can you do? I suppose you can wait for

time to deliver changes which may or may not happen. You've never had politics in your homes, and now you see the

world but have no choices.

[/quote]



I think that we

desperately need for colleges of high economical and political education. When there are several thousands educated

Russian guys – it will be possible to discuss what they want.


However, I think yes, many prefer the Western way of

economics now.

Yes, an educated

political/economic infrastructure is much needed. The USA is the "university of the world" in many ways, and I

hope Russians will be able to take advantage.






I think

that Medvedev is a quite pro-Western politician and he’s going to continue to try to find a place under the

capitalists sun for Russia.

I hope he is not

cut from the same cloth as Putin.



Greg, who do you think is going to be the next president of the US? :)

Good question

Alexey. A super-model I think...

[koolking1]

that was funny but unfortunately too close to the truth if our media is to be "The

Decider".

I'm enjoying this thread!!!!

[idesign]

Yes, many say about her the same

things… It is strange, her husband is nobody’s fool, I think :)



It seems that he is everybody's fool, as we

see now, and, in my opinion, during his presidency.

[tounge]

The guy cheats at golf too.

:smite:

[idesign]

The guy

cheats at golf too. :smite:


Be careful tongue, it all depends on the meaning of what the word "is" is.

It can get you a few "strokes" on the golf course.... ;)

[tounge]

Like my Granddaddy told me,when he

taught me the wonderful game of Golf.

" A person who cheats at golf, can't be trusted at anything.":cheers:

[Alex157]

You might also add

the lawyers...



Yes, Greg, I know that Americans don’t like lawyers very much :)








Ok Alex, we will not drink and play cards in the same evening,

unless you are like Pushkin. But

if I win, you could pay your debt with a poem that would win the heart of a lovely Russian woman.




Should I write in English? :) It will win the heart of a

lovely Russian woman more likely :)




My name is Joseph Gregory. My father is Odell.



So your Russian

name is Joseph Odellovich. Nothing difficult :)
There are no second

names in Russia :)





Johnny Walker is a good drink, but I prefer single malt scotch,

there are many.



Yesterday a friend of my father brought Chivas Regal. Not bad stuff too,

I think.


I will

bring you a bottle of Glenmorangie. Scotch is definitely not a lady's drink, but some women will drink it.



Well, I think that

the male drink is rum. :)




I will tell you a story when we are drinking Scotch together.




OK, when are going to vizit Moscow? :)





I understand, it

is the same worry that the West has with Putin. He is seen as a figure who is not known, and not predictable. Also,

the history of Russia will always be "an enigma wrapped in a mystery". As with all countries, history and culture

are a weight which moves slowly and with much effort.



The problem is that PUtin (and his guys too) is the most predictable one

from all our politicians. He has a quite clear idea. To make Russia more stable and rich and then to start

experiments with democracy.
Actually, I am a pro-Western person, but I

am against democracy here now. We haven’t a middle class and without it it is a risky business.





So, you are saying that the prostitutes are in good physical

shape? Maybe I will visit you soon.



Yeah, in great shape, everybody is welcome :)







Yes, capitalism suffers when capital leaves the country. Its too

bad. Political stability is the first requirement, you know this. That is the main question with the Putin dynasty.

They must create an environment of national stability and growth.




They

try…


You are right, politics will lead economics, and in Russia

there has never been an environment conducive to capitalism.




Well, I think that in the end of the XIX century Russia was

a more or less normal European Empire. However as well as Germans and Japanese we had monarchy too long. It is not

healthy.



Again,

spoken like nobody but a Russian can speak. You are a wonderful people waiting to be born into the world. What can

you do? I suppose you can wait for time to deliver changes which may or may not happen. You've never had politics

in your homes, and now you see the world but have no choices.



The main problem is that talented youth prefer to leave the country, not

to try to improve it. So far we have no chances for more or less good life in near future.





I hope he is not cut from the same cloth as Putin.




Believe me, the other our politicians are much worse. There

are half-fascists as Zhirionvisy or the communist morons. But the worse thing is our stupid, worthless and ignorant

so called ‘democrats’…





Good question Alexey. A super-model I think...



Well, now a joke is

popular here - ‘whom you are going to vote for on the elections of Medvedev?’.


It seems that your situation is a bit more complicated…

[idesign]

The problem is that

PUtin (and his guys too) is the most predictable one from all our politicians. He has a quite clear idea. To make

Russia more stable and rich and then to start experiments with democracy.



Actually, I am a pro-Western person, but I am against democracy here now. We

haven’t a middle class and without it it is a risky business.



Well, I think that in the

end of the XIX century Russia was a more or less normal European Empire. However as well as Germans and Japanese we

had monarchy too long. It is not healthy.

Believe me, the other our

politicians are much worse. There are half-fascists as Zhirionvisy or the communist morons. But the worse thing is

our stupid, worthless and ignorant so called ‘democrats’…



I

understand what you say about Putin. For you, it is a question of progress, and it is imperative for certain things

to be established after a long communist rule. Its true that without a middle class Russia could change from one

socialism to another form of socialism.

Do you see opportunities for a middle-class to grow? Is there a good

environment for small business to start and prosper? What businesses are growing? Is employment increasing? Do

you have any pets?

I imagine that its difficult for a Russian to think about Democracy. We have talked about

this. Your election choice of Medvedev is only slightly different than our "choices" of two parties. You have a

choice with one face, ours has several.

OK, let me be sure about it, I will visit, we will drink and play cards,

I will win, you will write a beautiful poem to a beautiful Russian woman, I will meet her and be happy. I will

bring the Scotch, do you prefer her to be blonde or brunette?

[Alex157]

I understand what

you say about Putin. For you, it is a question of progress, and it is imperative for certain things to be

established after a long communist rule. Its true that without a middle class Russia could change from one socialism

to another form of socialism.







I wouldn’t say that I am against socialism. My sister lives in France

and they have much more socialism than we had in the Soviet Union. Actually, I think that the US have much of it

too.



Do you see

opportunities for a middle-class to grow? Is there a good environment for small business to start and prosper?






It is a difficult question. Under Yeltsin average mobsters in the Moscow

region had some thousand dollars a moth (it was very good money – for comparison girls in the library near my house

got $20 a month for full day work). Everything was so criminalized that it was difficult to distinguish business

from crime.
Plus don’t forget about fantastic corruption on all levels.

Now the government got back the control over the country, but it means that you have to have your men in power to be

protected. If your business becomes a problem for your rivals you will be crushed by them with a support of the

authorities. For example, it is always easy to find out that you broke some rules of fire-safety or something like

this. Your factory will be closed for inspection for a couple of months and it will be enough you never can raise

again.


What

businesses are growing? Is employment increasing?




I cannot say for special

branches but salaries definitely grow. But again, nobody knows what happened tomorrow.



Once again, till they

haven’t built some political system it may fall any moment.





Do you have any

pets?



You mean

domestic animals? Well, I don’t like cats that much and a dog needs to be walked with it everyday – it is not

possible for me :)
What about you?




I imagine that its difficult for a Russian to think about

Democracy. We have talked about this. Your election choice of Medvedev is only slightly different than our "choices"

of two parties.




Well, first that’s because you are too right country :). Actually, you

have two similar right parties. In France, for example, they have really left and right parties. But all the same it

is a choice. I think that a choice is possible between politically close candidates only. Yes, you can choose

between Hitler and Lenin but one time only :). The next elections are going to be some 70 years later.








OK, let me be sure

about it, I will visit, we will drink and play cards, I will win, you will write a beautiful poem to a beautiful

Russian woman, I will meet her and be happy.



OK, but if I win, you write a poem and I marry her. :) OK? :)







I will bring the Scotch, do you prefer her to be blonde or

brunette?

I

prefer red-hair girls :)

[idesign]

Hi Alexey, I've been thinking

about our conversation and I am deeply perplexed and disturbed. After reading your insightful posts I thought you

were a smart man. Your last comments make me think you are not so intelligent. How can you prefer a red-hair girl?

Everyone knows that a brunette is better.

History has proven that red is inflammatory, look at Lenin and his

passion for "Red". What a disaster!



Seriously Alexey, I've been thinking about our discussion, and will

contribute something hopefully meaningful.

[belgareth]

Be nice now, my wife is a

redhead!

[DrSmellThis]

Redheads!!

[Alex157]

Hi Alexey, I've been thinking about our conversation and I

am deeply perplexed and disturbed. After reading your insightful posts I thought you were a smart man. Your last

comments make me think you are not so intelligent. How can you prefer a red-hair girl?




Hi, Greg. I think that it is just a misunderstanding. I am really smart and it is a

linguistic problem. There is a word

‘рыжий[/FONT

]’ in Russian. It is something average between

orange and yellow, I think. How hairs could be red in the first place if a person is not a punk or something like

this?




Everyone knows that a brunette is better.




Well, brunettes are good too as well as blonds :)





History has proven that red is inflammatory, look at Lenin

and his passion for "Red". What a disaster!


If Lenin was

running about with a

‘рыжий[FON

T=Verdana]’ flag, I doubt that he would succeed…





Seriously Alexey, I've been thinking about our discussion, and will contribute

something hopefully meaningful.

So you will

be able to answer my question? :) Who is going to be your next president? I can tell you as a secret that the name

of our one will be Medvedev. By the way, he is half-Jew. Maybe it is time for you to elect the half-black guy? :)

[DrSmellThis]

I like Kasparov a lot, at

least as a man. I know a bit about his politics, but not enough to evaluate him thoughly. Too bad he has no chance

in Russia, just like our best candidates have no chance here.

[idesign]

Hi, Greg. I think that it is just a

misunderstanding. I am really smart and it is a linguistic problem.



Alexey, it is definitely a

misunderstanding, and it is my mistake. My comments about "smart" and "intelligent" were only a joke about

preferring red haired girls. Also, you can see that you have allies in your opinion!

In our conversations I have

always understood and appreciated your intelligence. I understand the linguistic problem with our communication,

and I value our talks very much.




Well, brunettes are

good too as well as blonds :)

I

agree, hair color is less important than other things. :)





So you will be able

to answer my question? :) Who is going to be your next president? I can tell you as a secret that the name of our

one will be Medvedev. By the way, he is half-Jew. Maybe it is time for you to elect the half-black guy? :)




Medvedev? It is good to know such secrets! Yes, I understand about the

half-black guy (Obama). Unfortunately he is an empty vessel.

Do you think since Medvedev is half-Jew that

Russian policy will change with the Arab countries? It is amazing that even a half-Jew will be President of Russia.

Stalin will have diarrhea in his grave, as he deserves.

I'm avoiding your question about our next President,

and will will continue that strategy. :) My opinion about a future President is worth a cup of coffee, measured in

rubles or US dollars, it is the same now. If you read other places on this forum you will see my opinion, but here

it is a secret. ;)

[idesign]

Be nice

now, my wife is a redhead!


Redheads!!

Did I say brunettes were

better? Shame on me. :hammer:

[Alex157]

I like

Kasparov a lot, at least as a man. I know a bit about his politics, but not enough to evaluate him thoughly. Too bad

he has no chance in Russia


Yes, he has not a least chance.



http://www.reactioner.com/img/1.jpg



http://imgs2.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2006/04/17/43804_1.jpg

[F

ONT=Arial]http://www.newsru.com/pict/id/large/979023_20070803101227.gif[/FO

NT]

http://pix.lenta.ru/photo/2006/07/11/another/25.jpg[/FON

T]

[FONT=Arial]His most close ally is Limonov, a leader of the National-Bolshevik party with the

Soviet emblem on the Hitler’s flag. He encourages young guys for hooligan actions against the authorities and

when they are put in jail, he tries to capitalize on their broken lives. He got a sentence for organization of an

armed Nazi gang, but was pardoned then, of course, the Kremlin needs such guys.


The third guy in this beautiful company is a former Putin’s prime

minister Michael Kasyanov, a thief with a nickname ‘Misha two percents’.


Kasparov has a good command of English and manages to show himself as a

leader of Russian democracy (he had 10 of his articles published in the Washington Post for a month!!!!) but in

reality his popularity even among democrats is close to zero.
We really

had quite enough of people with Hitler’s and Bolshevik’s flags in their hands…



But he was a good chess player and I am sure that

now he really thinks that he is absolutely right… :) Alas, it is a key characteristic of the soviet mentality.

[Alex157]

Alexey, it

is definitely a misunderstanding, and it is my mistake. My comments about "smart" and "intelligent" were only a joke

about preferring red haired girls.




Greg, I understood your joke but unfortunately my answer was not a joke. It was a sheer lie.

I am not smart and since it is impossible to cover it for a long time it is a good opportunity now to say about it

:) But also I cannot say that I am stupid – it is something average and I think that it is not the worst case :)





Also, you can see that you have allies

in your opinion!



That’s why I said it. I know that many

like red-hair girls and tried to make friends here.



In our

conversations I have always understood and appreciated your intelligence.




Well, as I said my intelligence is an optimal balance between

smartness and idiocy :) I won’t invent a wheel but not a complete idiot. : ) Putin likes such ones most of all.





I understand the linguistic problem

with our communication, and I value our talks very much.




Me too. I like the place. I also attend the AWE forum where people exchange with floods of

four-letter insults but there is a more homely atmosphere here :)





I agree, hair color is less important than other things.



You mean a color of eyes? Yes, maybe it is even more

important than if is a girl a blond or a brunette…







Medvedev? It is good to know such secrets! Yes, I understand about the

half-black guy (Obama). Unfortunately he is an empty vessel.







Really? So Mrs. Clinton will be a Democrat candidate?


It is strange but everybody here discusses Obama and Clinton, but I

don’t even know who will be run from Republicans.





Do you think since

Medvedev is half-Jew that Russian policy will change with the Arab countries?






Actually, we have good

relations with Israel as it is. However, maybe you are right and he’ll change a bit the foreign policy. It hadn’t

come in my head…





It is amazing that even a half-Jew will be President of Russia.

Stalin will have diarrhea in his grave, as he deserves.







Well, I am not sure that Stalin was an anti-Semite. There were many Jews

in his company. Stalin exterminated anybody who he considered as a threat, not by racial reasons. Indeed his started

an anti-Semite campaign and as they said even planned public execution of Jews (personally, I think that it was one

of the reasons why he was killed – it was too much for the communists), but at that time he was already so crazy

that it might be any other nation. Judging by the documentaries he hardly understood what he was doing that time.







I'm avoiding your

question about our next President, and will will continue that strategy.

My opinion about a future

President is worth a cup of coffee, measured in rubles or US dollars






It was a joke about the currency rate in the Soviet Union among pounds,

dollars and rubles – a pound of well-dried rubles costs a dollar.





it is the same now.

If you read other places on this forum you will see my opinion, but here it is a secret.






Well, maybe you’ll tell me the name a bit later :)

[DrSmellThis]

Thanks for the interesting

perspective on Mr. Gary Kasparov.

My exposure to him came through international chess culture, within which he

seemed like a great guy, an admirer of Western things, and defender of democracy. I hung out on his website a lot

for a while. Within that arena, he demonstrated a lot of integrity where others didn't, was very rational, and was

respectful of others regardless of background.

Certainly, if he is a Nazi, that is a problem.

[Alex157]

Certainly, if he is a Nazi, that is a problem.



Of course not! Nothing of the kind.
Actually, I wouldn’t call Limonov a Nazi too now.
He is

for democracy now and I would agree with most of what he SAYS. However, it has nothing in common with what he thinks

if he does it at all. When he shot from a gun on Sarajevo he was a ‘patriot’, then he was a

‘nationalist’, now he is a ‘democrat’. In reality he is a yellow writer and does anything

possible to be popular.
What is on the photo is not real Nazis or

Bolsheviks – it is a political circus. As well as our ‘democrats’ are just clowns. I say it so

confident since I worked with one of our two ‘democratic’ parties and know everything there. When I

watched them on TV I thought the same you think about Kasparov. When I talked to them I saw who they are…



As for Kasparov he is so blind in his desire to fight against the

regime that cannot understand that the connection with such persons kills any chances to be supported by people.





an admirer of Western things, and defender of democracy. I

hung out on his website a lot for a while. Within that arena, he demonstrated a lot of integrity where others

didn't, was very rational, and was respectful of others regardless of background.





in words yes. But when it comes to a question who should be a leader of the

organization and how to decide what to do, all Russian democrats forget in a second about democracy. Who will be a

leader of the Russian democratic party (it is obvious that there is no pro-Western electorate for 10 or even 2 such

parties)? Me! Me!!! Me!!!!! Me!!!!!!!!!!!
All they said is very logical

and rational except for one very verrrry small thing. They forget that people wanted democracy here. But our

democrats were so selfish, greedy, worthless and ignorant that people just hadn’t any choice but to vote for

the FSB colonel.

Imagine that you live in town where an average

salary is $20 a month and all town is under the bandits who kill, rape and rob everybody. And some day guys in

uniform come and say – do you want democracy further, lads, or you allow us to put some order here? We

don’t promise you freedom and democracy but you don’t deserve it as you can see it

yourselves.
What will be an answer? Russians said yes, we want some

order.

Now Kasparov (under Hitler’s flags in addition) is

trying to explain Russians that their choice was wrong. The only thing I can answer him – yes, you are right

and I am wrong, but I prefer to be wrong.
The former KGB agents under

the Putin’s command fought against the bandits and they won. And, yes, they did it according their lights.

They just shoot anybody who didn’t understand that times changed.



Before I understand what Kasparov and other democrats want – either bandits again

or us to fight them while they will babble – I won’t raise a finger as well as the absolute majority of

the Russians :)

[Alex157]

anyway I asked Kasparov's

supporters what they themselves think of it :)

http://forum.kasparov.ru/viewtopic.php?p=65004#65004

[DrSmellThis]

I certainly can't comment on

Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.

But a lot of what I hear you saying is that

Kasparov is an idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy. One major problem you

bring up is that criminals and thugs are in power positions under the guise of democracy, and abusing the people in

every unspeakable way.

The apparent conflict between democracy and safety happens lots of places around the

world. For lots of reasons, I'd never want to tell another people what kind of government and legal system they

should have.

The fact of having a formal democracy -- in name -- in no way means one's rulership and political

system can't be horrible. That's just one variable.

To everyone, some measure of safety and security is of

paramount importance when you don't have it.

Is it possible to instill public safety and basic human rights

while constructing a democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?

I think so, but that

doesn't mean things in Russia are set up with the right leaders and popular support to do it now. My sincere hope

for Russia is that it happens sooner rather than later; and that you will see practical steps taken on a regular

basis. It has to come from the people.

You have to have rule of law for everyone, including the rich and

powerful.

We have problems related to that here, but they now look very different. Democracy always carries with

it the problem of the powerful exploiting the weak, since in an absolute form of democracy, people and entities are

free to take as much power as they can, no matter how greedy they are. That is why we have laws regulating

corporations, and problems here with the widening gap between the rich and poor. Here our "Democrats" have one

approach to the problem, and Republicans another, for example. (Some would argue their approaches are too similar,

and both fail.)

Democracy without justice is failed democracy.

But in the early days of our country, with

the "wild west" (population where law had not yet been established) and Native American wars, there was rampant

lawlessness and violence in many places.

I'd never recommend anyone to do it the way we did, even though it

more or less worked out over time.

You all have to find your own path.

As a nation, we certainly need to

keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly try to force some ideal of democracy

down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our thinking and behavior in this

respect.

[idesign]

I wouldn’t call Limonov a Nazi too now.


He is for democracy now and I would agree with most of what he SAYS.

However, it has nothing in common with what he thinks if he does it at all. When he shot from a gun on Sarajevo he

was a ‘patriot’, then he was a ‘nationalist’, now he is a ‘democrat’. In reality

he is a yellow writer and does anything possible to be popular.

It seems that your politicians are learning the American style of politics. However, in our "advanced"

politics, the candidates will say as little as possible about what they really think. Limonov changes his position

to be popular, our candidates work 24 hours to find ways to be popular without taking a real position.




As for Kasparov he is so blind in his desire

to fight against the regime that cannot understand that the connection with such persons kills any chances to be

supported by people.

Kasparov is an amateur, he will find

more moderate allies in the future, if he is as smart in politics as he is in chess.





But when it comes to a question who should be a leader of the

organization and how to decide what to do, all Russian democrats forget in a second about democracy. Who will be a

leader of the Russian democratic party (it is obvious that there is no pro-Western electorate for 10 or even 2 such

parties)? Me! Me!!! Me!!!!! Me!!!!!!!!!!!
All they said is very logical

and rational except for one very verrrry small thing. They forget that people wanted democracy here.



I wonder if this is because Russians have no experience,

perhaps even no idea about how the democratic process works? A young Democracy requires unselfish leaders who have

more interest in advancing freedom than their own particular interests. This is very distant from any Russian

social or political experience.

I think that in Russia, Democracy will not be "born", but will grow. But only if

there is a leader to articulate and inspire such an idea to the people. DrSmellThis said this, it is a movement of

the people, with a leader who thinks about freedom more than self

interest.



But our democrats were so selfish,

greedy, worthless and ignorant that people just hadn’t any choice but to vote for the FSB colonel.



see above comments about Democrats.

Perhaps Putin is a

necessary transitional figure. Do you think Russia needs such a leader to establish order so that other political

parties have time to mature?


Before I

understand what Kasparov and other democrats want – either bandits again or us to fight them while they will

babble – I won’t raise a finger as well as the absolute majority of the Russians

:)

DST has written most eloquently on this question, I cannot improve on his

comments.



I cannot forecast to you the action of

Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma: but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian

national interest. (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24927.html)

http://www.quotationspage.com/icon_blank.gif
Sir Winston Churchill (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Sir_Winston_C

hurchill/) (1874 - 1965), Radio speech, 1939


Alexey, what do you think of

this quote as it applies to modern Russia?

[idesign]

As a nation, we certainly need to keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly

try to force some ideal of democracy down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our

thinking and behavior in this respect.

Doc, great post. I printed it so I can read it at leisure and

develop thoughts.

As for this last section, I totally agree that we need to support and help countries develop

their *own* manner of governing. I do think that the idea of Democracy is flexible enough to encompass any number

of "tailored" systems, some perhaps more centrally controlled, some less so.

[belgareth]

I

certainly can't comment on Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.

But a lot of what I

hear you saying is that Kasparov is an idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy.

One major problem you bring up is that criminals and thugs are in power positions under the guise of democracy, and

abusing the people in every unspeakable way.

The apparent conflict between democracy and safety happens lots of

places around the world. For lots of reasons, I'd never want to tell another people what kind of government and

legal system they should have.

The fact of having a formal democracy -- in name -- in no way means one's

rulership and political system can't be horrible. That's just one variable.

To everyone, some measure of

safety and security is of paramount importance when you don't have it.

Is it possible to instill public safety

and basic human rights while constructing a democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?

I

think so, but that doesn't mean things in Russia are set up with the right leaders and popular support to do it

now. My sincere hope for Russia is that it happens sooner rather than later; and that you will see practical steps

taken on a regular basis. It has to come from the people.

You have to have rule of law for everyone, including

the rich and powerful.

We have problems related to that here, but they now look very different. Democracy always

carries with it the problem of the powerful exploiting the weak, since in an absolute form of democracy, people and

entities are free to take as much power as they can, no matter how greedy they are. That is why we have laws

regulating corporations, and problems here with the widening gap between the rich and poor. Here our "Democrats"

have one approach to the problem, and Republicans another, for example. (Some would argue their approaches are too

similar, and both fail.)

Democracy without justice is failed democracy.

But in the early days of our

country, with the "wild west" (population where law had not yet been established) and Native American wars, there

was rampant lawlessness and violence in many places.

I'd never recommend anyone to do it the way we did, even

though it more or less worked out over time.

You all have to find your own path.

As a nation, we certainly

need to keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly try to force some ideal of

democracy down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our thinking and behavior in

this respect.
Mostly I agree with what you are saying but I think you are putting forth a misconception

about the early days of this country. There was far less lawlessness here than the movies would have you believe,

for many reasons. One is that people were more spread out and conflict happened less often. People had to rely on

their neighbors far more than they do today which discouraged lawlessness, or if not lawlessness, bad behavoir.

Being rejected by your neighbors often was a death sentence of sorts because nobody can be totally self sufficient

so people have more reasons to get along.

Another factor was the type of people and the realities of life on the

frontier. People were more able to defend themselves, many being former soldiers. Many a would be criminal ended

their days hung from a large tree or shot.

A good point that you seem to be trying to make further on is about

democracy. In the truest sense of the word, as a democratic society, we have no right to tell other nations what

type of government they can or should have. They should be left to freely choose whatever they wish for themselves.

Of course, there are all sorts of 'if', 'ands' and 'buts' involved in that concept. However, generally

speaking, we need to get our noses out of other nations' governments unless we wish to admit to our own

hypocrisy.

[idesign]

Of

course, there are all sorts of 'if', 'ands' and 'buts' involved in that concept. However, generally speaking,

we need to get our noses out of other nations' governments unless we wish to admit to our own

hypocrisy.

You don't have to be perfect to give advice or, indeed, to intervene.

[Alex157]

DrSmellThis,





I certainly can't

comment on Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.





Well, if this guy is

worth of any close attention :) His influence is close to zero. By they way, he had been living in the US for a long

time and I think that some his books are translated in English.





But a lot of what I hear you saying is that Kasparov is an

idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy.






Yes, absolutely. I would say more – his real actions (as well as ones of

other our democrats) have nothing to do with his own ideals.
When he

writes articles for the Western media or talks something on our ‘democratic’ radio station Echo of Moscow he is a

democrat.
He would try to create a democratic party in Russia. But he

knows that nobody would deal with Limonov and he chooses Limonov since it is easier for him to have such an ally

(who gives immediately guys who are ready to go on the streets and protest against Putin) then to try to make some

real steps for creating such a party. If it is a really democratic party there will be internal elections there. And

where is a guarantee that Kasparov will be elected a leader? So it is much more convenient to agree with Limonov and

that crook Kasyanov that there will be not a party but just a public organization with three leaders who appointed

themselves.

The same

happened with another our ‘democrat’ Yavlinsky. He is much more clever and incomparably more popular in Russia than

Kasparov. But only position he can accept is to be a LEADER of the party. He knows that he is only proper man for

this post.
So he had been TALKING about democracy for 15 YEARS.


And he had been DOING all possible and impossible so that his own party

hadn’t been democratic. And the most interesting thing is that only among people with belief in democracy here still

there are some people (however less and less) who don’t understand that he is a liar and an accomplished crook. “He

says right things’ is theirs answer. They prefer to believe in democracy than to see obvious things.



Yes, Kasparov says ‘right

things’ too. But he neither wants nor is able to do anything toward these right things.



Look at his forum. Only

three persons answered something to my questions in English. I never got from Dpinrock (Deep Purple in Rock)

something sensible neither in Russian nor now in English (I had been to the forum a year ago). Jersy lives in

Poland.
And it reflects the situation. The forum is famous for rudeness

and ignorance of its moderators and participants. As soon as you write something bad about Kasparov you get a squall

of insults. Everything they don’t like moderators moved to special threads named ‘a pile of rubbish#1’, ‘a pile of

rubbish#2’ and so on. Nobody wants to talk with them and they are not able to talk to anybody who is not a fanatic

of Kasparov.

So there are

two great advantages of Kasparov in the West. He knows English well and Americans don’t know Russian :)





Greg,





It seems

that your politicians are learning the American style of politics. However, in our "advanced" politics, the

candidates will say as little as possible about what they really think. Limonov changes his position to be popular,

our candidates work 24 hours to find ways to be popular without taking a real position.



Oh, yes. I

think that it is a key point. Limonov has some popularity indeed (rather he had it), but it is very cheap one.


He gets some supporters (less and less after the next changing

of his position) but simultaneously loses much more every time.
I am sure that you indeed are not able to be in ‘advanced’ politics if you state what you think. You have to

know what your electorate thinks.
If you read the Kasparov forum

the discussion between me and Jerzy boils down to a question is Limonov’s flag a ‘Hitler’s’ one.


I argue that yes, and he argues, that no, it is not a Hitler’s

flag.
No doubt that both of us will think that we are right even

if we are arguing for year. It is OK as long as we are just citizens.
But I am sure that if Kasparov takes participation in our conversation (he wrote there some time ago) he would

prove me that he is absolutely right and the flag is not Hitler’s one.
That is, I would be able to do nothing but to say to him ‘Garry, you are right and I am wrong since I just

have no strengths to argue with you anymore. You won, my congratulations. Well, of course, I will never vote for

you, but I think that it won’t upset you much. You can always say that the elections were fixed and damned Putin

took my vote from you’.
I saw it everyday on the site of the

democratic party Yabloko. I even participated in trying to organize Internet meetings between representatives of the

party and electors (rather, I did it practically alone :) ). They are not able to do it neither in reality nor in

the Net. They have Yavlinksy who is able to come to TV and to criticize the authorities. But none of them is able to

talk to electors since all electors have wrong opinions of their own and our ‘democratic’ politicians are above

talking to people with wrong views. What sense in it? They find some idiots who are ready for free to hang around on

forums, appoint them administrators and moderators and they explain electors that they are fools with wrong views.

:) Of course, since they have a possibility to delete electors’ posts and ban them they usually win. I remember as

a regional leader of Yabloko after an idiotic insult in my address in his Live Journal suggested me to vote for them

after it :). Well, I wrote to the leadership of the party and got some excuses (only in private from a couple of

leaders of the party) but I did it just to see if it is possible to get excuses from them even in such a situation.

An average person just will never vote for them and ask all his/her friends not to do it. Say, the Democratic party

of the US will decide to have a forum and a representative of the party would call a woman there ‘this creature’

just for some critics of their candidates as a representative of Yabloko did at their site. Will it add many votes

to them?
And as a result a little problem is that Yabloko got

2% on the last elections and nobody attends their sites and forums anymore but they know that they are right.


Of course, a politician who wants to have support cannot behave

this way. Electors are right, not he…

Kasparov is an

amateur, he will find more moderate allies in the future, if he is as smart in politics as he is in chess.




Well, let me

translate what Sn (by the way, he lives in the US and could write in English since I told him that it is for

Americans but he doesn’t give a damn for anybody, of course) and Vladimir wrote in Russian on the Kasparovs’ forum.



Sn: Limonov had wrote even

in his early books that he was an admirer of Nazi’s leaders. But now he become wiser and maybe he even will admit

that it was not good for them to kill Jews in the Ukraine. (Limonov is Ukrainian, his real name is Sovenko).


Vladimir: if he were wiser he would disband his stinking party and have

shoved his flag in a water-closet pan long time ago.



Personally, I think that if Kasparov were able to be a real politician,

he would understand long time ago that after this friendship with Limonov his political career is over forever.


But I think that he just believe that Putin is bad. And since he fought

against him he is good.
Of course, he wants a democratic party in

Russian. But why we have to start with him? Democracy in Russia is much more important. When we have free TV, honest

elections and the like his organization will be democratic too. It is not his fault that now nobody but Limonov

doesn’t want to support such a good guy as he is.
If he were a

politician and could be able imagine what other people think, not he only, he would understand that people don’t

want abstract free TV and abstract honest elections. They don’t want to be killed, raped and robbed under nice

talking about democracy as in 90s. It seems that he is not able to understand it.









I wonder if this is because Russians have no experience, perhaps even no

idea about how the democratic process works?



Absolutely. Even the party officials of ‘democratic’ parties either have

not a clue about it or affect ignorance since it is not useful for them. Democracy means internal elections in their

parties and they want it as a wolf wants a ban on eating meat :)






I think that in Russia, Democracy will not be "born", but will grow. But

only if there is a leader to articulate and inspire such an idea to the people. DrSmellThis said this, it is a

movement of the people, with a leader who thinks about freedom more than self

interest.




Well, I think that

it is a matter of time. Some day we will have such leader.




Perhaps Putin

is a necessary transitional figure. Do you think Russia needs such a leader to establish order so that other

political parties have time to mature?





Why ‘needs’? :) We have already had a second one – Medvedev :) . By the

way, Putin makes some attempts to create a second party. But people don’t want it – they prefer to have one real

party, it more traditional for us :)

[belgareth]

You

don't have to be perfect to give advice or, indeed, to intervene.
It's the intervening that bothers me.

We do not have the right to intervene in other country's affairs. We do not have the right to tell them or in any

way push them towards the type of government we want them to have. If we want to claim democracy we have to allow

other countries to choose the type of government they want without outside pressure. Our only role is to defend

their right to choose, nothing more.

[tounge]

It's the

intervening that bothers me. We do not have the right to intervene in other country's affairs. We do not have the

right to tell them or in any way push them towards the type of government we want them to have. If we want to claim

democracy we have to allow other countries to choose the type of government they want without outside pressure. Our

only role is to defend their right to choose, nothing more.





Agree with what you have posted.

However there can really be no true democracy anywhere.

That is why the founding fathers of the US set up a

REPRESENITIVE REPUBLIC. With an electoral college. Very, very wise indeed.

A true democracy will eventually be

doomed to failure. In its simplest form a democracy could be two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Won't last long. A democracy established in a place like Iraq, would eventually be taken over by a sect that was

fairly elected into power by a majority and then that sect changes law to whatever their whim will be. In essence

making it likely that they will never be voted out.

I don't think there has ever been a nation in the history

of the earth that has been governed by a true democracy, for more than a blip in history.

[belgareth]

Good point. It doesn't change

the fact that we have no business interferring with their right to choose what government they have.

[idesign]

But I think that he (Kasparov) just believe that Putin is bad.

And since he fought against him he is good.

The Democratic

Party in the US is doing the same thing. Their central message is change from Bush. They do not talk in detail

about what they believe. They will not say "We want to take more of your money in taxes and increase government

control over every life". They say instead "We want to give you "free" healthcare".




If he were a politician and could be able imagine what other

people think, not he only, he would understand that people don’t want abstract free TV and abstract honest

elections. They don’t want to be killed, raped and robbed under nice talking about democracy as in 90s. It

seems that he is not able to understand it.

Even the party officials

of ‘democratic’ parties either have not a clue about it or affect ignorance since it is not useful for

them. Democracy means internal elections in their parties and they want it as a wolf wants a ban on eating meat :)



Why ‘needs’? :)

We have already had a second one – Medvedev :) . By the way, Putin makes some attempts to create a second

party. But people don’t want it – they prefer to have one real party, it more traditional for us :)




Reading your words helps me understand better what I have been thinking. The weight

and inertia of your history may be impossible to alter. The Russian desire for a strong central leader is a

cultural enigma. With a leader such as Putin or (apparently) Medvedev, you have the security and safety of a Czar

with the beginnings of personal freedom and economic prosperity.

It raises another question: do you think the

"average" Russian cares about politics in a pure sense? Of course everyone thinks about politics if they can see it

effecting their life, but do you care about the structure of government or what its called?

DrSmellThis asked an

interesting question:

"Is it possible to instill public safety and basic human rights while constructing a

democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?"

I think Putin has answered "yes". While he is

not a real "democrat", he at least is moving away from certain vestiges of the past. What do you think?

BTW,

Colombia is an interesting study in security and democracy. What Uribe has done is nothing short of amazing. They

still have problems with the FARC, but have turned the country around. Medellin's mayor, Fajardo, has done a great

job in that city, former base of the now dead Escobar.

My next question would be: to what extent do Russians

desire a real democracy?

Congratulations on your election Alexey. It was a tense moment waiting for the results.

:)

[idesign]

Agree with

what you have posted. However there can really be no true democracy anywhere.

That is why the founding fathers

of the US set up a REPRESENITIVE REPUBLIC. With an electoral college. Very, very wise indeed.

A true democracy

will eventually be doomed to failure. In its simplest form a democracy could be two wolves and a sheep voting on

what's for dinner. Won't last long. A democracy established in a place like Iraq, would eventually be taken over

by a sect that was fairly elected into power by a majority and then that sect changes law to whatever their whim

will be. In essence making it likely that they will never be voted out.

I don't think there has ever been a

nation in the history of the earth that has been governed by a true democracy, for more than a blip in

history.

Good post.

Look at California. Lots of ballot referenda. They were even allowed to vote on

teaching Ebonics. :frustrate


As a result they've voted themselves into an energy crisis.

[tounge]

Good post.



Look at California. Lots of ballot referenda. They were even allowed to vote on teaching Ebonics. :frustrate




As a result they've voted themselves into an energy crisis.



California was ruined by the left

and liberalism. It was at one time a conservative and well run state. And of course it attracted many people because

of its prosperity, and then of course the libs got control and destroyed the state.

[belgareth]

Yeah, I know. I lived there

through it. When I was growing up they had the best schools in the country, now they are beat out by almost every

state in education.

Last I heard they were going to outlaw back yard, charcoal barbecues because of air

pollution and you are pretty much stuck buying electric powered garden tools even though they have a power shortage

due to the refusal to build new power plants. They send so much fresh water south that many areas in the north are

becoming desert and they actually have to publish the salt content of tap water! Then the farmers who buy the fresh

water at government subsidized rates don't use it and are trying to resell it to the public at commercial rates.



I'm so glad I moved out of that state!

[Alex157]

The Democratic Party in the US is doing the same thing. Their central message is

change from Bush. They do not talk in detail about what they believe. They will not say "We want to take more of

your money in taxes and increase government control over every life". They say instead "We want to give you "free"

healthcare".

Well,

our world is not perfect, neither the politicians are :) By the way, my sister lives in France and they really have

first-class medical care there. It is free and in some sense resembles the Soviet one but many times better.



Are you a Republican? :)




Reading your words

helps me understand better what I have been thinking. The weight and inertia of your history may be impossible to

alter.




I would say that it may be very long process.







The Russian desire for a strong central leader is a cultural

enigma. With a leader such as Putin or (apparently) Medvedev, you have the security and safety of a Czar with the

beginnings of personal freedom and economic prosperity.


And

the main thing is that we have not necessity to think ourselves :) By the way, our parliament is called Duma as

under the Czars. ‘Duma’ is made from a word ‘dumat’ - to think. Its task was to help the Czar to think. But it is

not a parliament, of course :)





It raises another question: do you think the "average" Russian

cares about politics in a pure sense? Of course everyone thinks about politics if they can see it effecting their

life, but do you care about the structure of government or what its called?





No, not in the

least degree. Our political ignorance is unlimited.






I think Putin has

answered "yes". While he is not a real "democrat", he at least is moving away from certain vestiges of the past.

What do you think?





I think that he understands well that there is not other way to rule

modern Russians but the way he does. Maybe some time later democracy will be possible. I agree with him.





BTW, Colombia is

an interesting study in security and democracy. What Uribe has done is nothing short of amazing. They still have

problems with the FARC, but have turned the country around. Medellin's mayor, Fajardo, has done a great job in that

city, former base of the now dead Escobar.


Well, many

countries had a strong leader as a transitional step.





My next question would be: to what extent do Russians desire a

real democracy?


Most of Russians don’t want democracy openly

and say that they prefer autocracy, as for others I think that the absolute majority of them haven’t even a notion

what democracy is. Again, I was communicating with our ‘democrats’ - it is something terrible.







Congratulations on your election Alexey. It was a tense moment

waiting for the results.



Thank you, Greg. :) It was a bit nervous indeed and till the

last moment we didn’t know who might win. But it ended well. They say that in some Northern districts appearance of

electors was even a bit more than 100% because bears came to support their candidate (‘medved’ means ‘bear’ in

Russian and ‘ev’ is equal ‘son’ in Robertson or Johnson).

[idesign]

Well, our world is not perfect, neither the politicians are :)

By the way, my sister lives in France and they really have first-class medical care there. It is free and in some

sense resembles the Soviet one but many times better.

Free is

never free. I don't want to pay the tax of a Frenchman. :)




Are you a Republican? :)



I am a "medved". I only come out of the forest when there is

a candidate worthy of more than 100&#37; of the vote. I have become weary of the forest.



Seriously, I do not identify with "Republican". I would say Conservative with Libertarian

underwear.



And the main thing is that we have not necessity to

think ourselves :)

America has become such a place, but for

different reasons.

Your government has imposed rule for centuries, and you have had the "luxury" of life

without the responsibility of political thought.

In America, our history is founded on fiercely independent

thinking and lively debate. However, the progression of socialist programs and ideals in this century has lead to a

rather large bureaucracy of what you might call "program perpetuators". This has led to our current electoral

system in which people try to avoid thinking about it at all costs. So you see, we are the same.

:)


By the way, our parliament is called Duma as

under the Czars. ‘Duma’ is made from a word ‘dumat’ - to think. Its task was to help the

Czar to think. But it is not a parliament, of course :)

Our

parliament is called "Congress", which means "collection" or "collective". As our system evolved over time, it has

also taken on the meaning "idiot", or "collection of idiots". Its task is to collect and spend money, regulate

bowel movements and approve of itself by salary increases

and periodic controlled elections. It is no longer a parliament of

course...


Our political ignorance is unlimited.

:rofl:As for us, our

unlimited ignorance is political.

In fact, the more stupid the idea, the better chance it has for political

popularity.






I think that he

understands well that there is not other way to rule modern Russians but the way he does. Maybe some time later

democracy will be possible. I agree with him.

many countries had a

strong leader as a transitional step.



Most of Russians don’t

want democracy openly and say that they prefer autocracy, as for others I think that the absolute majority of them

haven’t even a notion what democracy is. Again, I was communicating with our ‘democrats’ - it is

something terrible.


Its very interesting to

read your comments Alexey. I'm beginning to understand the situation in your country, its been a long time since I

studied Russia.

Like you say, Putin, and his way of governing, is a natural progression in your development. I

hope Medvedev takes you just a little further.

Let me say, for all of us, we are very fortunate to have you as a

member of this forum. Thanks for your interesting conversation.




They say

that in some Northern districts appearance of electors was even a bit more than 100% because bears came to support

their candidate

We have a similar phenomena in our elections. Sometimes dead people and family

pets vote for their favorite candidate. :)

[idesign]

Alexey, how did you find this

forum? Do you use pheromones? Are you here for the very enlightening political discourse? :) I'm just

curious.

Allow me a question. If you could move to America and live here as a citizen, would you do it? Why?

What would you expect the differences to be?

[Alex157]

Greg, I was a bit busy (we are formalizing our divorce with Yabloko party :) ) and

am going to answer your previous post at the weekend.




Alexey, how did you find this forum?






Oh, a great place. Really. I hope that I’ll stay here for long.




Do

you use pheromones?



I don’t even know what it is :)







Are you here for the very enlightening political

discourse? I'm

just curious.





Actually, I was looking for a forum for practicing my English.

But it seems that I can find here more.





Allow me a question. If you could move to America and

live here as a citizen, would you do it? Why? What would you expect the differences to be?



Well, it is a difficult question. To

be frank, I would prefer to stay in Europe. I would like to live in Czech republic or something like this. That is,

I would prefer to live in Russia, but sometimes I begin to think that it is impossible to live here.


But I would love to have an American wife for learning English :)

[DrSmellThis]

Alexey,

how did you find this forum? Do you use pheromones? Are you here for the very enlightening political discourse? :)

I'm just curious.

Allow me a question. If you could move to America and live here as a citizen, would you do

it? Why? What would you expect the differences to be?I'm fond of this post. These are the kinds of

questions we should be asking, even if they might seem a bit naive or ethnocentric.

In my experience, people

from abroad generally have a very nuanced view of America. It's not just a black and white situation of either

"haters" (from terrible places, like FRANCE ;)) who buy into propaganda; versus "poor lost souls" and "tired,

huddled masses" who yearn for the peace, freedoms and comforts of our "superior" lifestyle. Believing this really

would be naive and ethnocentric.

For every five Cuban soccer players seeking asylum, there are countless others

who have very good reasons for preferring other places.

What attracts me most to the US is that I am comfortable

and familiar with the culture, and my family and friends are here. As it turns out, I think I'd feel isolated

elsewhere. Otherwise, I'd look at about fifteen other countries for various reasons.

[Mtnjim]

...Otherwise, I'd look at about fifteen other countries for various

reasons.

Given a choice, Spain or France for me. I liked those places when I lived there before.

[belgareth]

Otherwise, I'd look at about fifteen other countries for various

reasons.
Retirement isn't all that far off for me. Maybe a place with a nice sandy white beach where I can

bring in a sailboat? Someplace with low taxes and a low cost of living and blue water close by...

[idesign]

Greg, I was a bit busy (we are formalizing our divorce with Yabloko

party :) ) and am going to answer your previous post at the weekend.

No

problem Alexey. Would you care to tell us more about your activities? It would be interesting to hear about. I am

not KGB (can't remember the new name), so you can speak freely. ;)




Oh, a great place. Really. I hope that I’ll stay

here for long.

Your English is too good! My question

"how did you find this forum" can be read two ways, and you answered the more colloquial (and difficult for

foreigners) meaning of the phrase. I could alternatively ask "how did you discover this forum"?






I don’t even know what it is :)



Pheromones are the main point of this forum. You

might want to read other areas of the forum and find out about the kind of people you're talking to. :lol:





Well, it is a difficult question. To be frank, I

would prefer to stay in Europe. I would like to live in Czech republic or something like this. That is, I would

prefer to live in Russia, but sometimes I begin to think that it is impossible to live here.
But I would love to have an American wife for learning English :)

Its difficult for

many (maybe most) Americans to understand how easy it is to live here relative to other countries. We complain and

criticize a lot, for some good reasons, but not all of them are good.

Our system is a 200 year old experiment,

and today has no resemblance to its beginning. Honestly, I think we do not have the capacity to change the

direction. However, there is nothing preventing me from living any life I choose and am able to make. Its becoming

more difficult though.

I am curious about your reason for saying "sometimes I begin to think it is impossible to

live here (Russia)". Is it for reasons relating to daily life? Lack of opportunity?

If you answer with a very

long reply you will have good English practice, and we will have the benefit of very interesting reading. :) When

your divorce is complete, of course.

An American wife will teach you much more than English. :) But I am not

complaining, quite the opposite.

[idesign]

I'm

fond of this post. These are the kinds of questions we should be asking, even if they might seem a bit naive or

ethnocentric.

In my experience, people from abroad generally have a very nuanced view of America. It's not just

a black and white situation of either "haters" (from terrible places, like FRANCE ;)) who buy into propaganda;

versus "poor lost souls" and "tired, huddled masses" who yearn for the peace, freedoms and comforts of our

"superior" lifestyle. Believing this really would be naive and ethnocentric.

For every five Cuban soccer players

seeking asylum, there are countless others who have very good reasons for preferring other places.

What attracts

me most to the US is that I am comfortable and familiar with the culture, and my family and friends are here. As it

turns out, I think I'd feel isolated elsewhere. Otherwise, I'd look at about fifteen other countries for various

reasons.

I like naive, to a point. Did you ever read or see "Being There"? The character Chance was

ultimately naive, and had a simplicity in his approach to life and people that was completely honest, and likable.

Of course that's an extreme.

Ethnocentricity is unfortunate, like, ummmm, lack of education.

I think you're

right about the world's view of America. I think if you eliminate political and geographic boundaries, and just

think of "people" around the world, the opinions about the US will pretty much line up with opinions among

Americans. That's to say, some will be hyper-critical, and some blindly adoring, with most in the middle

somewhere.

I don't think the world hates the US, nor do I think we need to worry about "restoring America's

respect", as some politicians are fond of saying.

Bel, Doc and Jim, I'm with you guys. I'm thinking of a place

where the mountains are less than an hour from the beach. I think I'd have to come back for lengthy periods

though.

[DrSmellThis]

Idesign, Imeant it all as a

compliment. "Seeming" naive or ethnocentric is different from being that. If I ask someone their opinion of my

behavior to learn something about myself, it might seem self-centered on the surface. But it's not really. And what

seems naive can really be open minded. :)

Portland, Oregon is surrounded by huge mountains, ocean, rainforest,

and desert, all within a 90 minute drive or less; in addition to being a great city, in terms of lifestyle, music,

and culture. There is nowhere in the world quite like it, judging from the many comments of international travelers

I've heard over the years. And it's right here in the good ole US of freakin A. :) There's ethnocentric for ya'.

On the other hand, if you hate rain you are SOL here.

[idesign]

Idesign, Imeant it all as a compliment. "Seeming" naive or ethnocentric is different from

being that. If I ask someone their opinion of my behavior to learn something about myself, it might seem

self-centered on the surface. But it's not really. And what seems naive can really be open minded. :)

Portland,

Oregon is surrounded by huge mountains, ocean, rainforest, and desert, all within a 90 minute drive or less; in

addition to being a great city, in terms of lifestyle, music, and culture. There is nowhere in the world quite like

it, judging from the many comments of international travelers I've heard over the years. And it's right here in

the good ole US of freakin A. :) There's ethnocentric for ya'. On the other hand, if you hate rain you are SOL

here.

I used to sign my posts with my name, Greg, but fell out of the habit. I thought of having Bruce

change my forum name but I guess its too late now. Anyway, call me Greg.

No worries Doc, I knew what you were

getting at. This writing/reading thing is like soooo overrated. :) Good thing we have emoticons to help out along

the way.

Perhaps we should establish a blanket agreement like Bel and I had in a previous thread. Something

like "I promise to not be a jerk". :lovestruc

I spent 2 weeks in and around Port Orchard, WA for a job and loved

it, except the rain. Not much culture there either, but we took the ferry to Seattle and had a great time. Drove

up to Port Angeles and the Olympic Range. Amazing place. Sequim is quite the lavender growing area (in a weird

rain shadow), and every shop was full of it, very cool.

There's too much to love about our country to not be

ethnocentric to the point of loving it above others. I think that must be a pretty universal sentiment, even for

people who live in difficult places.

[DrSmellThis]

Glad you had a chance to enjoy

the Pacific Northwest.

Lavender, rock rose (labdanum), and rosemary grow all over the place here, as do roses

and lots of evergreens. You can pretty much walk around with some grain alcohol and pick yourself an aftershave for

free, if you know when to pick stuff. Plus, every neighborhood is filled with fragrant gardens.

Sorry to

digress, but I've been on an "I love Portland" kick lately.

[idesign]

Digress all you like, I enjoy

reading it. Makes me wish I lived in a place I was passionate about. Don't get me wrong, its a nice place, if

you're into surfing or sportfishing. I'm not into either, so I get my fix of interesting things by traveling

around the region, which is FULL of very cool places. Lots of history along the east coast, which is nice.


As

an aside Doc... forgive me if I'm not all that adept at responding appropriately sometimes. I'm pretty new to the

whole Forum format and I forget that people can't hear my voice or see my expressions. I'm also a little slow on

the uptake at times. :think:

[idesign]

Alexey, we miss your posts here.

I hope you are well. Мы надеемся

видеть вас снова

скоро друг.

[idesign]

Alexey, if you're still

there...

One of our presidential candidates stated that Russia should not be a part of the G8 (economic Group of

8) because of Russia's departure from Democracy. What do you think of this? He advocates allowing India and

Brazil into the group.

[Alex157]

Alexey, we miss

your posts here. I hope you are well. Ìû ÃÃäååìñÿ âèäåòü âÃñ ñÃîâà ñêîðî

äðóã.






Sorry for my absence, I was

a bit busy with my Live Journal :). They say that top bloggers get 4-5 thousands a month and the idea grasped me :)


Plus, for some reasons I don’t get any notifications about new posts on

the forum.





Alexey, if you're still there...

One of our presidential

candidates stated that Russia should not be a part of the G8 (economic Group of 8) because of Russia's departure

from Democracy. What do you think of this? He advocates allowing India and Brazil into the group.






Greg, it was not clear for me what we are doing in G8 at all in the

first place. I don’t know what Russia produces – it is definitely not cars, electronics or clothes, maybe tanks or

missiles?
I think that it was a political step and, of course, if we are

booted out it would be an offence.
If the West wants some democracy here

it should negotiate with the Kremlin. It is possible if some money are donated. I mean organization of the second

party and the like.

[idesign]

I agree Alex. Russia should be

kept as a G8 partner. One would hope that pressure could be placed on Russia within that forum. These days, I have

less hope for that.

I suppose the most important work to be done in Russia is organizing and educating people

about Democratic ideals. Is that what you're doing in your blog? Will it make a difference?

[DrSmellThis]

I agree

Alex. Russia should be kept as a G8 partner. One would hope that pressure could be placed on Russia within that

forum. These days, I have less hope for that.

I suppose the most important work to be done in Russia is

organizing and educating people about Democratic ideals. Is that what you're doing in your blog? Will it make a

difference?What I hear him saying is that it's not so much the ideals themselves, the shining cities on the

hill, that are hard to grasp; but rather the landscape -- practical, problematic realities of where the society is,

with respect to distance and terrain, in achieving anything like those ideals.

Even here, where we like to think

it all happened more or less "organically" (for most white people, and people with the biggest guns, anyway) the

ugliness of the landscape we have crossed and are crossing strains the imaginiation at times.

Rather, the lions

share of the former responsibility, to make clear the ideals and benefits of liberty and democracy; remains ours.

And it is not a matter of our words, to put it mildly. What good is it for them to learn more, when we have so much

to learn before we can teach anybody much more than a confusing, and at times nonsensical story?

There are

certainly those who think we have done a great job of "spreading democracy", and consequently its ideals. But that

belief happens most everywhere to evoke fiery and divisive debate more than any kind of understanding.

If we

ever achieve liberty and democracy here, for more than a minority, and demonstrate some integrity with that; there

will be no problem anywhere in the world finding a majority of people to buy into it. It is now a very small world

with a substantial collective consciousness. Most people want desparately to believe in ideals like these, on one

level; but they have their good reasons for not doing so.

A movie that brought some of this to light was

"Control Room", a documentary about individuals working for Al Jazeera in Iraq, individuals who would have

absolutely loved to spend their days dreaming about democracy, all other things being equal. I once reviewed it

here.

[Alex157]

I agree Alex. Russia should be kept as a G8 partner. One would hope that

pressure could be placed on Russia within that forum. These days, I have less hope for that.







So do you think, Greg, that Russia is going to be booted out from G8?





I suppose the

most important work to be done in Russia is organizing and educating people about Democratic ideals. Is that what

you're doing in your blog? Will it make a difference?



Well, again, I think that something is changed when the generation is

changed.
I opened a poll not long ago about who is to blame most for

the war in Yugoslavia. And on a democratic forum most people tipped the box ‘USA’ :)


It was a jocular song here with stanzas like this ‘if there is no

water in the house, the Jews have drank it’ and the like.
It is

senseless to talk to such people.
My blog is photo one.

http://bayukov.livejournal.com/ (http://bayukov.livejournal.com/)
I plan to add some politics but just for attracting people.



However, we are constructing a site and there is going to be a section

in English.
I’ll tell you about it in details when it is ready.

[idesign]

So do you think, Greg, that Russia is going to be booted out

from G8?

Well, McCain was the one who mentioned it. If he's

elected I'm not sure that he'll have a consensus. A lot could depend on Medvedev too. In the final analysis,

Russia has no place among the G7. Perhaps it would be an offense to Russia, but perhaps that is what is needed to

keep pressure on the Kremlin. I don't need to remind you, it was economics which broke the back of the Soviets.

Putin is no stranger to pressure, and Medvedev will learn quickly. The pressure of non-acceptance is good healthy

medicine for an autocrat.

Having said that, membership in the G8 is meaningless for Russia until they have an

economy which actually matters to the world economy. That, and democracy, will take some time, as you've said.







Well, again, I think that something is changed when the generation is changed.


I opened a poll not long ago about who is to blame most for the war in

Yugoslavia. And on a democratic forum most people tipped the box ‘USA’ :)


It was a jocular song here with stanzas like this ‘if there is

no water in the house, the Jews have drank it’ and the like.
It

is senseless to talk to such people.
My blog is photo one.

http://bayukov.livejournal.com/ (http://bayukov.livejournal.com/)
I plan to add some politics but just for attracting people.

However, we are constructing a site and there is going to be a section in English.


I’ll tell you about it in details when it is ready.




I understand your sentiments with Russian political sophistication. :) I was mostly

wondering about the group you are working in and what kind of things you are doing.

I'm curious, what kind of

politics/government are taught in the gymnazia? What is the next generation being taught?

Even as I write this,

I just saw on TV that Putin embraced the Peoples' Party, and spoke of "consolidating power". Kasparov said the

power move was "byzantine". I have to agree, in a purely intellectual way.

However, I understand and agree with

your assessment of Russia's political necessity of having an autocratic leader. Personal security and economic

stability require it, like you say.

It seems to me that Russians are naive, and wonderfully untainted by

politics. This is both a compliment and a criticism. Those who care about politics are as voices crying in the

wilderness. The rest are married to their culture, perhaps not happily at times, but free of an added burden.

I

like your photo blog a lot Alexey. Is anyone allowed to post photos? I also enjoyed your "How I Participated in

the Russian Elections".

My favorite was your marriage commentary, and the bride in this picture:

:)

http://i011.radikal.ru/0803/25/fea70ee41380.jpg

[Alex157]

I understand your sentiments with Russian political sophistication.

I was mostly wondering about the

group you are working in and what kind of things you are doing.




It was several people from one of our parties Yabloko (apple). The

most active one was a local leader of the youth organization under this party.


Our last job was trying to organize answers of party candidates in their

blogs. We asked candidates and just party members to open treads where people could ask them questions during

campaign. The TV channels were virtually closed for them. However, as a rule they don’t want to answer anything.





I'm curious, what

kind of politics/government are taught in the gymnazia? What is the next generation being taught?




Well, the next generation just are not taught that grandpa

Lenin was the most human man and that communism is inevitable. I hope that the generation after it will be taught

something else. Actually, it is a continuous fight between different ministers what should be taught in

schools…
I think that some basis of democracy are taught now.




Even as I write this, I just saw on TV that Putin embraced the

Peoples' Party, and spoke of "consolidating power".



You mean ‘United Russia’, Greg? Putin now is a member of it and is going

to be elected its leader.





Kasparov said the power move was "byzantine". I have to agree, in

a purely intellectual way.


Yes, but with such politicians as

Kasparov there are no other choice :)


However, I understand and

agree with your assessment of Russia's political necessity of having an autocratic leader. Personal security and

economic stability require it, like you say.


In Russia yes.

Of course, if there is a middle class it is better to have democracy.





It seems to me that Russians are naive, and wonderfully

untainted by politics. This is both a compliment and a criticism. Those who care about politics are as voices crying

in the wilderness. The rest are married to their culture, perhaps not happily at times, but free of an added burden.




Yes, Russians are very naive. It is discussed why it is seen

if a person is Russian :). I remember an American movie and there was a moment when several tens of Soviet military

went somewhere. One of actors was Russian and it was clearly seen tens Americans in Russian uniform and one Russian

among them :) I don’t know what it is. Maybe some childishness in a face too.




I like your photo blog a lot Alexey.



Oh, thank you.




Is anyone allowed to

post photos?

My

journal is run by the Russian laws only :) They don’t forbid posting photos. :) However, technically it is possible

to post photos on the main page by me only. Anybody else can post anything he/she wants in comments. Do you have

something? :)



My

favorite was your marriage commentary, and the bride in this picture:





Yes, I like her too :)

[idesign]

Alexey, its been a long time

since we spoke, I hope you are still there among us, and doing well. :)

There is a lot of water which has flowed

under our bridges.

We have an election process and you have Georgia. From my perspective they are similar. One

is attempting an invasion on another for political reasons.

I will be very interested to hear about what you

think of Putin's (Medvedev's) adventure into the Caucasus. Its interesting that the commentary made here in the

US always refers to Putin's bold move, and not Medvedev.

Is the spirit of Ivan IV alive in Putin? He is

flexing muscles and looking like Czar. We in the west are mostly lost concerning Russia, but I know something about

your history. Russia is like a woman for me: I love you, and vodka helps me forget the politics. :)

[Alex157]

Greg hi :)
yes, I am here and I

am OK :)
As for Georgia I think that Saakashvili is complete scum... However, the position of Russia is really

funny. We granted citizenship all population of South Ossetia there and call ourselves peacekeepers....
Anyway the

problem is that the West started it with recognition of Kosovo, I believe... What do you think of it?
and yes,

Putin is strong and formidable :)

[idesign]

Glad to hear that you are alive

and well Alexey!

Hmmm, Kosovo. It was a big problem for Clinton and NATO. We tried to help a Muslim population

and had no understanding of the complex history of the Balkans. When we recognized Kosovo we tried to do the right

thing and, as it happened, did nothing to solve a problem. I don't know if you can blame the West, or anyone. I

also don't know if the problem in the Balkans can be solved. The Ottomans caused the problem and they are no

longer here to help us. :) Their ancestors are unwilling to negotiate.

I'm curious about how you think Georgia

relates to that situation. Do you think Russia's interest might be geographical and oil related? Georgia is an

important link to the Black Sea, and is between there and Baku.

What do you think of the defense missile system

in Poland?

I visited your website and it has grown a lot! Many beautiful images! A nice place to visit. I was

thinking about posting some pictures there, but your artists are much better than what I do.

Oh, why do you think

Saakashivili is scum?

[Alex157]

Glad to hear that you are alive and well

Alexey!

Hmmm, Kosovo. It was a big problem for Clinton and NATO. We

tried to help a Muslim population and had no understanding of the complex history of the Balkans. When we recognized

Kosovo we tried to do the right thing and, as it happened, did nothing to solve a problem. I don't know if you can

blame the West, or anyone. I also don't know if the problem in the Balkans can be solved.



No, not helping Muslims was a problem. My opinion is not

typical for Russians but I think that NATO had no choice but interfere there.
I was saying

about recognition of Kosovo. It was a direct violation of European principle of inviolability of frontiers in

Europe. It was signed by all European countries and by the US too. The US is not a European country : ) but others

have no excuse.
By the way, such independence violates logic too. If Kosovo has a right to be

independent from Serbia, any district of Kosovo where there are Serbian majority should have such a right also.








I'm curious about how you think Georgia

relates to that situation. Do you think Russia's interest might be geographical and oil related? Georgia is an

important link to the Black Sea, and is between there and

Baku.


Well, first of all both nations –

Abkazs and Ossetins want to be with Russia, not Georgia, it is a fact. So it is not easy for Russia to be

indifferent since all Caucasian nations of Russia are against Georgia too and support Abkazia and South Ossetia. As

NATO didn’t want to see how Albanians were killed in Kosovo we don’t want to see how Georgians kill Abkazs and

Ossetins.
Of course, the Kremlin has interests of its own there, but it has a great pretext

for operating there.
Now it is clear that both the West and the Kremlin have extremely

hypocritical positions. Both accuse each other of doing what the are doing themselves.
It is

a top of hypocrisy to shout about violation of international laws in Kosovo and then to do the same in Georgia. The

West has not any moral rights to accuse Russia after recognition of Kosovo too. It was the West who started it.








What do you think of the defense missile

system in Poland?


As

for me I think nothing, but I am sure that if Russia begins to built military bases in Cuba the US wouldn’t be too

happy too.





Glad to hear that you are alive and well

Alexey!

I visited your website and it has grown a lot! Many beautiful

images! A nice place to visit. I was thinking about posting some pictures there, but your artists are much better

than what I do.




Greg, post something and we compare : )







Oh, why do you

think Saakashivili is scum?

I saw the translations from the UN by the CNN. Of course, Georgian representatives have a good command of

English and in comparison with our old Soviet apparatchik they look much better. Buy they lie as Stalin’s guys lied

60 years ago in the UN.
It was Saakasvili’s regime who started the

war. And they started it cowardly at the first day of Olympics. Hundreds of civilians died for nothing since the

Kremlin was just glad to this provocation and it was obvious that Russia would draw in its army.


By the way, Saakashvili is a mental person too. It is strange that the

West cannot see it.

[Mtnjim]

Well, first of all both nations – Abkazs and Ossetins want to be with Russia,

not Georgia, it is a fact.

That may well have to do

with before the Soviet days, Georga engaged in "ethnic cleansing" in Ossetia. They hated each other.

[idesign]

No, not helping Muslims was a problem. My opinion is not typical for

Russians but I think that NATO had no choice but interfere there.
I was saying about

recognition of Kosovo. It was a direct violation of European principle of inviolability of frontiers in Europe. It

was signed by all European countries and by the US too. The US is not a European country : ) but others have no

excuse.
By the way, such independence violates logic too. If Kosovo has a right to be

independent from Serbia, any district of Kosovo where there are Serbian majority should have such a right

also.

Yes, I understand, but it is difficult to understand why a major ethnic

population within a region cannot have their political freedom when political boundaries have historically been

drawn randomly and without populations in mind. In Eastern Europe it is most difficult, especially in the Balkans

(Yugoslavia and Albania).

If Europe thinks its boundaries to be inviolable, then they need only think back to

their history when the Western nations continuously shifted alliances against various Eastern powers and schemed to

manipulate much of Eastern Europe (post-Ottoman) through those alliances. There was scarcely any time for E.Europe

to establish modern States before the Soviets put an end to that. Modern Europe is only a little more

enlightened, and they are concerned more with economic unity than ethnic freedoms.

Its my thinking that W.Europe

is not that comfortable being part of NATO as a useful force to begin with.

Arbitrary boundaries will

eventually be broken, and nowhere was it more volatile than the Balkans. But, there is little risk that smaller

populations will have the resources to break from the boundaries recently

established.





Well, first of all both nations – Abkazs and Ossetins

want to be with Russia, not Georgia, it is a fact. So it is not easy for Russia to be indifferent since all

Caucasian nations of Russia are against Georgia too and support Abkazia and South Ossetia. As NATO didn’t want

to see how Albanians were killed in Kosovo we don’t want to see how Georgians kill Abkazs and Ossetins.


Of course, the Kremlin has interests of its own there, but it has a great pretext for

operating there.
Now it is clear that both the West and the Kremlin have extremely

hypocritical positions. Both accuse each other of doing what the are doing themselves.
It is

a top of hypocrisy to shout about violation of international laws in Kosovo and then to do the same in Georgia. The

West has not any moral rights to accuse Russia after recognition of Kosovo too. It was the West who started it.



What you say makes sense, if you consider "self-determination" to be a goal for a modern

political philosophy. MtnJim's point is well taken, and your explanation is enlightening. In this way of looking

at Ossetia is Russia all that hypocritical? Of course you must discount other reasons.

Int'l politics and law

are constantly shifting, and have always been so. Today's hypocrite is yesterday's hero. The US knows this

because they have been caught in their own devices many times, but the game must be played with today's cards.

That's what makes yesterday's cards so troublesome.




As

for me I think nothing, but I am sure that if Russia begins to built military bases in Cuba the US wouldn’t be

too happy too.

Ah, do you interpret such actions through the lens of a Soviet camera? Or

is the camera a modern Russian one? They are very different. Is it so hard to understand "manoeuvres

defensif"?


I saw the translations from the UN by the CNN. Of

course, Georgian representatives have a good command of English and in comparison with our old Soviet apparatchik

they look much better. Buy they lie as Stalin’s guys lied 60 years ago in the UN.


It was Saakasvili’s regime who started the war. And they started

it cowardly at the first day of Olympics. Hundreds of civilians died for nothing since the Kremlin was just glad to

this provocation and it was obvious that Russia would draw in its army.
By the way, Saakashvili is a mental person too. It is strange that the West cannot see it.



Yes, after some reading I think you are right.

As another thought, what do you think

of the UN?

As for my pictures, they are only good "snapshots", and not artistically rendered. I will gather some

and send them to you. :)

Nice to see you again!

[Alex157]

Sorry, guys, for some reason I

didn't get a notification again. I'll answer soon.
By the way, Greg, is there a topic about cinema at the

forum?

[idesign]

No problem Alexey, we're always

here. :) And I saw a shortcoming in my previous reply, but let's continue and I'll correct it.

There is a

thread about Good Movies Lately (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10170) here, and you

can post anything you like. If you want to create a different discussion you can start a new thread. As a member

you can create a thread on any topic. Just put it in Open Discussion. Let me know if you need any help. What do

you have on your mind besides politics and great photography?

[Alex157]

It is me again :)








If Europe thinks its boundaries to be

inviolable

Well,

actually the US signed this treaty too :)




Modern Europe is only a little more enlightened, and they are

concerned more with economic unity than ethnic freedoms.


I

think that the US virtually have not such problems since the significant part of the native population died out (and

many were killed by European invaders) and now constitutes a very small percentage of total population.


As far as I know Europe does much for ethnic cultural freedoms but this

problem has not any solution from my point of view. If every nation has to have a state of its own – what should be

borders? If not, how I can have the same rights as the ‘title’ nation if I want to speak my ethnic language?




What you say makes

sense, if you consider "self-determination" to be a goal for a modern political philosophy.



No, I haven’t any

strict views of my own on the subject. I just think that if a territory has a right to separate, any part of it has

to have the same right. That’s only one thing I am saying. But it is impossible.







--As for me I think nothing, but I am sure that if Russia begins to built

military bases in Cuba the US wouldn’t be too happy too.



--Ah, do

you interpret such actions through the lens of a Soviet camera? Or is the camera a modern Russian one? They are very

different. Is it so hard to understand "manoeuvres

defensif"?



I just think that nobody cannot be unbiased. Say, Mexicans will elect

somebody like Saakashvili and a civil war among different ethnic groups will begin (God forbid, of course).


I think that it would be difficult for the US not to interfere at all if

it happens at the US’s borders.



As another thought, what do

you think of the UN?



Nothing :) Rather, it is a bit better than nothing but the UN is

incapable to solve serious problems, I think.



As for my

pictures, they are only good "snapshots", and not artistically rendered. I will gather some and send them to you.



Great, I am waiting

for it : )

[Alex157]

There is a thread about

Good Movies Lately (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10170)

here

Thanks a lot,

Greg. I am going to read it and post my questions :)




Let me know if you need any

help

No, no,

everything is OK :) Thank you!





What do you have on

your mind besides politics and great photography?



Money :) My main concern is how to get money from the Russian

Internet : ))

[idesign]

If every nation has to have a state of its own – what

should be borders? If not, how I can have the same rights as the ‘title’ nation if I want to speak my

ethnic language?

I understand and partially agree. The only problem is with old borders

drawn arbitrarily, without respect to major cultural/religious populations, as in the former Yugoslavia and

Albania. After the Soviet demise such things were inevitable I think. And then there was Milosevic, another small

problem. :)




No, I haven’t any strict views of my own

on the subject. I just think that if a territory has a right to separate, any part of it has to have the same right.

That’s only one thing I am saying. But it is impossible.

Self determinism is pretty

important as a foundation for a Democracy. But you are absolutely right about small indigenous groups. They will

not have the power to realize any independence of course.




I

just think that nobody cannot be unbiased. Say, Mexicans will elect somebody like Saakashvili and a civil war among

different ethnic groups will begin (God forbid, of course).
I think that

it would be difficult for the US not to interfere at all if it happens at the US’s borders.



Interesting analogy Alexey, especially in the light of your

comment about borders. Of course the US would have an interest in the outcome. That raises a question I have.

What is the international status of South Ossetia?

As you recognized, there is a cultural

difference between the north and south. If either area have an allegiance to Georgia or Russia then their political

sponsor has an obligation: Georgia in the south and Russian in the north. But I'm not sure of the dynamics of

these areas among their people, if you exclude powerful armies.

Going back to the subject of this thread

(remember that?) :) the west is becoming a little nervous of Putin for other reasons as well. We will

see.



Nothing :)

Rather, it is a bit better than nothing but the UN is incapable to solve serious problems, I think.



And are corrupt and political.

[Alex157]

I understand and partially agree. The only problem is with

old borders drawn arbitrarily, without respect to major cultural/religious populations, as in the former

Yugoslavia and Albania.
Major on minor?




After the Soviet

demise such things were inevitable I think.
Well, the same

problems are in Catalonia or the Country of Basques, for example.





And then there was

Milosevic, another small problem.



Yes, sure, but now there are another guys there. :)





Interesting analogy Alexey, especially in the light of your

comment about borders. Of course the US would have an interest in the outcome. That raises a question I have. What

is the international status of South Ossetia?


The same as of

Kosovo : ) It is a part of Georgia, of course.


As you

recognized, there is a cultural difference between the north and south.



Well, I don’t think

so. The only difference, I believe, is that there were many ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia, of course. As well as

there were quite enough Serbs in Kosovo. Of course, the difference is that some Serbs remain in Kosovo, but I think

that all Georgians were banished from South Ossetia and Abkhazia…




If either area have an allegiance to Georgia or Russia then their

political sponsor has an obligation: Georgia in the south and Russian in the north.



I think that the

main problem is that Russia is more tolerant to ethnic minorities than Georgia. Actually even as an Empire ethnic

minorities in Russia were much more equal to the main nation that in the Western Empires. Maybe because Russians

were mainly serf slaves so there were no difference for Czars :

)
Georgians want to make everybody Georgians and it is not OK with Abkazs

and Ossetins.





Going back to the subject of this thread (remember that?)

the west is becoming a little

nervous of Putin for other reasons as well. We will

see.
Yes, all

troubles at the Caucasus are only coming : ))




And are corrupt and political.





Well, Greg, what is not corrupt and political in the modern

world? : )

[idesign]

Hi Alex,
After finally getting

around to doing some more reading about Georgia, I have to agree with you. Saakashvili made a big mistake, and his

country paid a price. The Russian response may have been a little heavy-handed, but Putin is the kind of person who

likes to prove his point.

The discussion about Kosovo, Basques, ethnic sovereignty and such can be discussed

endlessly, and is probably one of the more interesting discussions available. Ethnic and religious tensions that

history ignored - or suppressed under a dictatorship - later become revolutions if they can, genocides if they're

very unlucky, or victims of re-suppression if they're only moderately unlucky. This ignores political tensions

which suddenly appear in the vacuum of a failed imperial tyranny such as the Soviets.

Considering all that, the

Balkans were a very old soup that boiled over after its last restraint was removed. It was going to happen, and the

Western powers had to make a choice. Recognizing Kosovo was not so much a matter of violating borders, but of

recognizing a new political landscape that they did not choose, but had to accept.

In sheer pragmatic terms, a

population must have the means to revolt in terms of capability, then it must have legitimacy in its political

sphere. These two rules prohibit many populations from breaking whatever "chains" they have, or perceive to

have.

On another note, I see that Putin, ooops, Medvedev wants to place missiles near Poland. Medvedev said that

he is counting on our new President to make "conciliatory gestures". What do you think of this? What do you think

of our new President?

[Alex157]

Greg hi,





After finally getting around to doing some more reading about Georgia, I have to agree

with you. Saakashvili made a big mistake, and his country paid a price.






Well, I remember a line from ‘Jackie Brown’. - Can you trust Melony? –

You can trust that Melony will be Melony.
Or something like this.

Saakashvili is Saakashvili and I think that it is a great mistake of the US government that it supports such guys.

Again, Hitler was elected democratically too.








On another note, I see that Putin,

ooops, Medvedev wants to place missiles near Poland. Medvedev said that he is counting on our new President to make

"conciliatory gestures". What do you think of this?





Nothing : ) As far as I know we have not military units to the west of

Moscow at all and all this is just a show. A good half of Russians are very anti-Western and I think that the

Kremlin guys just try to satisfy them.








What do you think of our new

President?




Well, I am glad that after Bush America chose something else :) For me it shows that

democracy works.
Much more a bit later – we are making our site and my

brains don’t work completely : )
What do YOU think of new President?

:)

[Mtnjim]

On another

note, I see that Putin, ooops, Medvedev wants to place missiles near Poland. Medvedev said that he is counting on

our new President to make "conciliatory gestures".

You might be too young to remember, but I would say

"Cuban missles in reverse."

[idesign]

You might

be too young to remember, but I would say "Cuban missles in reverse."

I think its apples and oranges. A

non-nuke defensive missile program in Europe, with full NATO support - in our current political climate - is much

different than Nikita K. trying to plant offensive nukes in a puppet state ruled by a certified gangster.

The

spirit of Che Guevara died its final death when the Soviets caved to JFK (btw, the last Democrat with balls), and

subsequent communist revolutions in the Americas died slower deaths as toilet paper became more and more scarce, but

in much higher demand. Or, you could say that the need to wipe one's ass properly became both a real and political

necessity with Castro wannabes running amok and attempting too late their plans for centrally-controlled paradises.

They missed the trend, and got caught with their ideology failing like an adolescent at the Mustang Ranch.



Castro just got lucky at just the right time with just the right amount of thuggery. The kind of thuggery that

won't pass the scrutiny of today's international scrutiny unless you're Castro, or Putin, which leads to the crux

of this thread which is Russia's new Tsar. Of course the big differnce between petty dictators and big ones are

big weapons. Which leads to a need to contain them.

[belgareth]

What do YOU think of new President? :)
A

major mistake and disaster waiting to happen. McCain wasn't much better and I didn't vote for either of them. I

think we are in for some very bad times.

But then, I've been saying that for a long time and as predicted,

things have continued to worsen under each successive president. Obama's crazy ideas are just going to speed things

up.

[Mtnjim]

I think its

apples and oranges. A non-nuke defensive missile program in Europe, with full NATO support - in our current

political climate - is much different than Nikita K. trying to plant offensive nukes in a puppet state ruled by a

certified gangster.

It might not look so different through Russian eyes.

[idesign]

It might

not look so different through Russian eyes.


I think Putin has two eyes, one sharper than the other.

[idesign]

Alex! Its been a long time

since we have spoken мой друг, вы

хорошие?

We have a new President now, what do you think of our future

political relations with Obama? Do you think he is a match for Medvedev/Putin?

I also see that Moscow and Kiev

have a dispute with gas deliveries to Europe. What is the real problem with Gazprom?

[Alex157]

Alex! Its

been a long time since we have spoken ìîé äðóã, âû õîðîøèå?

We have a new President now, what do you think of

our future political relations with Obama? Do you think he is a match for Medvedev/Putin?

I also see that Moscow

and Kiev have a dispute with gas deliveries to Europe. What is the real problem with Gazprom?

Hello

everybody :)
Idesign, sorry for some delay in my answer :)
well, the only problem with our gas that it cannot be

devided among 100 millions of people :) so some of them get much bigger money from it than others :)

[idesign]

No problem Alexey, its only been

a year, and I had a girlfriend who took that long to get ready for a date. Come to think of it, she was Russian!

:)

A lot of water has flowed under the bridge (but not gas) in the past year or more. How is everything in your

part of the world?

[Alex157]

No problem

Alexey, its only been a year, and I had a girlfriend who took that long to get ready for a date. Come to think of

it, she was Russian! :)

A lot of water has flowed under the bridge (but not gas) in the past year or more. How

is everything in your part of the world?


yes, Greg, with Russians it can take years :) I mean getting

ready for a date :)

Inded gas is flowing all right :)
We are OK. Well, politically we are in shit up to our

ears as always, but it is our normal condition :)
How things are going on on the forum?

[idesign]

The forum is good Alex, but

politically we're in shit up to our tallest basketball stars, especially considering that some of them are from

China. :)

Are you keeping up with the American experiment?

[Alex157]

The forum

is good Alex, but politically we're in shit up to our tallest basketball stars, especially considering that some of

them are from China. :)

Are you keeping up with the American experiment?

No, Greg, we are far ahead

:)

But I am sure that many of my compatriots would be happy to hear that American has some troubels too :)



By the way, we had a terrible summer - it was almost as hot as in Florida in August :)