View Full Version : Does Putin have a soul?
Alex157
01-11-2008, 12:31 PM
Does Putin have a soul?
HAMPTON, New Hampshire
(Reuters) - Sen. Hillary Clinton, campaigning on Sunday ahead of New Hampshire's critical presidential primary,
declared in response to a voter's question that Russian President Vladimir Putin "doesn't have a soul."
…
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/07/hillary_clinton_campaigning_ponders_putins_soul/
Why Hillary is so sure that the KGB’s officers have no souls? :) . What if Hillary is elected
and it will be found out that Medvedev has not a soul too? It may spoil relations between two countries :).
I do not think that it is right to state such things…
belgareth
01-11-2008, 12:43 PM
No, it isn't right to say such
things. In her case we have to wonder if her statement had any meaning other than political hyperbole. After all, do
democrats and Hillary in particular have religion? Sometimes I wonder.
At the same time, it isn't right for a
citizen of one country to become involved in the politics of another.
Alex157
01-11-2008, 01:04 PM
No, it isn't right to say such things. In her case we have to wonder if her
statement had any meaning other than political hyperbole. After all, do democrats and Hillary in particular have
religion? Sometimes I wonder.
Actually, in fact the Soviet morality didn’t deny existing of a soul.
Marx just stated that the material stuff is primary. So I am sure that both Putin and Hillary have souls :)
At the same time,
it isn't right for a citizen of one country to become involved in the politics of another.
Well, the problem is that nobody
obeys this rule and Putin with his guys first :)
Say, it is a civil war in a country
and there are good and bad guys there (well, from my point of view, of course) and I am able to help good guys. I
think it was a terrible mistake of the Western powers that they didn’t fulfill a full-scale intervention in Russia
in 1918.
belgareth
01-11-2008, 01:20 PM
I never said anything about
Soviet morality, only Clinton's, something I doubt exists. It isn't even morality but spirituality but the
statement still applies.
Does the fact that another does not obey a rule make it right for us to disobey the
rule? Not in my opinion.
I also disagree on the intervention. We are wrong to interfere with other nations now
and we would have ben wrong then. That is the very basic precept of the democracy we tout. Each has their right to
choose their own course so long as that course does not interfere with another person or country's freedom to
choose.
Alex157
01-11-2008, 01:36 PM
I never said anything about Soviet morality, only Clinton's
Yes, I commented on her statement :)
Does the fact that another does not obey a rule make it right
for us to disobey the rule? Not in my opinion.
Sure, sure, but it is difficult to obey rules when nobody doesn’t want
to do it :)
I
also disagree on the intervention. We are wrong to interfere with other nations now and we would have ben wrong
then.
Well, however you had to interfere in 1941 all the same. Was it possible
then not to interfere? It would be a betrayal of your ally Britain.
Each has their
right to choose their own course so long as that course does not interfere with another person or country's freedom
to choose.
But the Bolsheviks positively interfered with many other persons in
Russia and other places as well. If a government violates the rights of citizens is it interference with other
persons?
Well, however you had to
interfere in 1941 all the same. Was it possible then not to interfere? It would be a betrayal of your ally Britain.
If you are speaking of WWII, the US only entered the war formally after the attack on the US Navy
at Pearl Harbor. Not sure why the US didn't get more involved after the invasion of the Phillipines but I'm not
fully up on that part of history.
The US at the time had a policy of non-involvement (military) otherwise. There
was economic support of Britain and other countries before the formal declaration of war. If I recall the US only
got involved in the European theater due to the military/political link between Japan and Germany.
Politics is
strange... Even though the US was "friends" with France for example at that time, we did not get militarily involved
with the war even after France's colonies in Asia (eg Veitnam) were invaded by the Japanese. During/after WWII we
got roped into some sort of treaty with France about coming to their aid if they or one of their possessions was
invaded which is how we got mixed up with the communist "invasion" in Veitnam in the 60's-70's (thanks Mr.
Truman...).
Alex157
01-12-2008, 04:46 AM
If you are speaking of WWII, the US only entered the war formally after the
attack on the US Navy at Pearl Harbor. Not sure why the US didn't get more involved after the invasion of the
Phillipines but I'm not fully up on that part of history.
The US at the time had a policy of non-involvement
(military) otherwise. There was economic support of Britain and other countries before the formal declaration of
war.
Economic support of Britain included sending ships there and since the
Nazis tried to sink them, of course, the ships had to be guarded and it meant a direct war against German.
If I recall the US only got involved in the European theater due
to the military/political link between Japan and Germany.
Well, I don’t think that Germany was that much involved in war in Asia
to consider it. America had to decide whether it supported England (and it meant a direct war against Germany) or
not. Yes, I am sure that many citizens of the US would prefer not to be involved, but the politicians knew that
there was no choice.
Politics is strange... Even though the US was "friends" with
France for example at that time, we did not get militarily involved with the war even after France's colonies in
Asia (eg Veitnam) were invaded by the Japanese. During/after WWII we got roped into some sort of treaty with France
about coming to their aid if they or one of their possessions was invaded which is how we got mixed up with the
communist "invasion" in Veitnam in the 60's-70's (thanks Mr. Truman...).
Always, there is a politician who can be
thanked for a war. In Europe, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Serbia, Iraq…
As for ‘friendship’ and getting roped now everything is simpler. An attack at any
member of NATO means an attack at all others according to the treaty.
Economic support of Britain
included sending ships there and since the Nazis tried to sink them, of course, the ships had to be guarded and it
meant a direct war against German.
Actually no. You can defend your ships (or anything else) but not be
in a "direct" war. You would be if you were actively attacking *them*. Switzerland (which remained neutral) had
it's army guarding it's borders as a defense, but was not in a "direct war" with Germany or the Axis powers.
At first I think most of the convoys of ships (including American ships) were guarded primarily by the British
Navy.
Alex157
01-13-2008, 02:53 AM
Actually no. You can defend your ships (or anything else) but not be in a
"direct" war.
Yes, sure. But I don’t think it was the case in the WWII. As well
as in any wartime either. Say, Iran (or any other countries) would send convoys with weapons to anti-American troops
in Iraq. I doubt very much that it would be possible for them just ‘defend’ their ships without real
fighting against the American Navy.
If you support my enemy you are my
enemy too.
You would be if you were actively attacking *them*.
Without no doubt, I think, it will be so in most cases.
Switzerland (which
remained neutral) had it's army guarding it's borders as a defense, but was not in a "direct war" with Germany or
the Axis powers.
There was not any reason for Hitler to attack Switzerland. Money and
gold are useless in a world war (your enemies woun’t sell you anything and your allies are figting too so are
not able to sell food and weapons), so he knew that he could do it after the victory. If Switzerland helped somebody
in the anti-Hitler coalition it would be crushed in a moment.
At first I think most of the convoys of ships (including
American ships) were guarded primarily by the British Navy.
I think it was so in the first perion of the war. Then logic of war
demanded for more and more wide interference.
idesign
01-13-2008, 06:33 PM
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/07/hillary_clinton_campaigning_ponders_putins_soul/
Why Hillary is so sure that the KGB’s officers have no souls? :) . What if Hillary is
elected and it will be found out that Medvedev has not a soul too? It may spoil relations between two countries :).
I do not think that it is right to state such things…
I agree
Alex.
What Hillary Clinton says is always calculated to achieve a marketing effect for her candidacy, pure
self-interst, nothing more or less. She is a loose cannon when it comes to international affairs, having no
experience, incomplete information, childishly naive understanding and a ruthless instinct to get what she only
thinks she deserves.
She recently made a comment about Pakistan's leader concerning Bhutto's assasination
which was immediately and rightly rebuked by that gov't. Irresponsible at best, and dangerous if anyone took her
seriously, which no real thinking person could do.
She's the poster child for nanny state proponents who believe
"if I only ruled the world...."
What does that have to do with the Russians? History. More on that if
anyone's interested.
BTW, Alex, where are you from? Just curious.
Alex157
01-14-2008, 05:57 AM
What Hillary Clinton says is always calculated to achieve a marketing effect for her candidacy, pure
self-interst, nothing more or less. She is a loose cannon when it comes to international affairs, having no
experience, incomplete information, childishly naive understanding and a ruthless instinct to get what she only
thinks she deserves.
Yes, many say about her the
same things… It is strange, her husband is nobody’s fool, I think :)
She recently made a comment about Pakistan's leader concerning Bhutto's assasination which was
immediately and rightly rebuked by that gov't. Irresponsible at best, and dangerous if anyone took her seriously,
which no real thinking person could do.
I think that it is very bad for a politician :). Indeed, an
average Joe from the street may say anything he wants, but a politician should be responsible for every word he/she
says.
What does that have to do with the Russians?
History. More on that if anyone's interested.
Yes,
sure!
BTW, Alex, where are you from? Just curious.
I am a
Russian, I live in Moscow. By the way, it seems to me that Alex is a female name in the States. I am a male. It is
always a problem in English :). In Russian you have to write just a couple of words and your gender is clear.
I'm in midwest US and I am pretty
sure that "Alex" isusually considered a male name. I can think of a number of Alexes right now, and they are all
male.
(Alex Trebek, actor; 2 sports figures at least; but I grant Alex Doonsebury [comic strip character-
cable TV show] was female...)
Alex157
01-19-2008, 03:52 AM
Great! Usually Alexes whom I met
were female, so I decided that in the US it is a female name :).
For example, I am watching 'what women want'
and the name of Gibson's daughter in the movie is Alex.
Alexander Baldwin, though, sometimes is Alec and
sometimes Alex...
Actually, there is nos such an official name in Russian (it is used as a nickname only in
imitation of the West) so I decided to make it clear :)
idesign
01-19-2008, 09:11 PM
Agree with Rbt on the name Alex,
but some women have that nickname, diminutive for Alexandra or Alexis.
I've always appreciated the Russian
custom of making the middle name a patronymic. Alexandrovna is both lovely and respectful.
My remark about
Hillary and the Russians has mostly to do with socialism than anything else, which has changed in Russia, but you
can tell us better from your place.
Hillary has an "oligarchy" mentality, which, in her case, blends socialism
with a "right" for her clan (liberalism) to rule for the "common good". She uses her own concept of the "collective"
to push ideals which most of the population would reject if they knew what she was actually representing. Of course
she is not honest in representing her real motives.
This is not a direct comparison to the former Soviet state,
but perhaps more applicable in comparing to Putin.
A socialist leaning joined with a sensibility which assumes
there is a "right" to power is perhaps the most dangerous political ideal. I can't help but think there is a
Czarist mixed with October Red mentality driving Putin.
In Hillary's case the appeal to the "common good" is
both seductive and evil, as Bolshevism has proven to be true. In Putin's case there seems to be a shift toward
Czarist oligarchy, which is what Hillary and her machine would love to achieve with her idealist control over
personal lives. Idealism is all about control, subject to a shifting and nebulous definition of "what's best" for
you and me.
In Russia, it seems there has always been a desire for a strong leader to gather the Russian lands
and anchor the Rus in a solid mooring. In America, the opposite is true, we have rejected kings and tyrants. Until
now. There is a tyranny which nobody recognizes until it is in their house and is eating all their food.
In a
very loose way Putin and Hillary are traveling the same path, in different spheres.
Its amazing to me how much of
our American population is willing to give up their ability and right to prosper freely to a gov't which will
appropriate the fruit of their labor at the whim of politicians.
I'm thankful that I live in America, and hope
for more than our current political climate offers.
PS Alex, I've made some assumptions, please correct me when
I'm wrong.
tounge
01-20-2008, 10:21 AM
Greg, fantastic appraisal of
Hillary Clinton. She shares the same philosophy of Chavez in Venezuela and Ortega in Nicaragua. The USA and the rest
of the world are about to enter very dangerous and hard times.
Many people who have studied her, consider her
an avowed Leninist.:run:
But, of course, as it seems with any
political election in this country in my memory of late, it always seems to come down to a choice of the lesser of
the evils...
It's been ages since I voted FOR someone rather than AGAINST the worst of the choices.
:rant:
<sigh>
:frustrate
And I have yet to see any really clear cut differences between the two
major political parties. Same crap, different names. No real choice. Just cover your own ass and hope to make it
through the next series of created crises and "pending disasters."
Alex157
01-21-2008, 11:09 AM
Agree with Rbt on the name Alex, but some women have that
nickname, diminutive for Alexandra or Alexis.
It seems that
it is equal to the situation with the male name Alex in Russia. Here it is a half-jocular nickname for Alexander or
Alexey.
I've always appreciated the Russian custom of making
the middle name a patronymic. Alexandrovna is both lovely and respectful.
There was an Englishman in
the Soviet Union who taught English. And his new Russian name became Richard Richardovich Dixon. :)
Alex, I've made
some assumptions, please correct me when I'm wrong.
I mostly agree with you, Idesign, but I think that many in the West
underestimate what happened in 90s in Russia.
Yes, the US is a very
liberal country. However, I know one thing about the US for sure. A friend of my father is a pensioner and he hadn’t
worked a day in the US. But he has an apartment, medical care which in the SU had top communist bosses only and the
like. During our capitalist reforms the old folks became just dirt under feet. As well as invalids and anybody who
was not able to build capitalism with the nails and teeth.
Also whole
cites began to be controlled by gangsters. Posts of mayors or governors were just bought by them. So Putin in some
sense just returned the country to more or less normal conditions. And since the citizens didn’t want to do anything
everything was done by the Kremlin.
And I wouldn’t say that Putin is
trying to control me.
There
was a soviet joke. A guy comes to the office in a rumpled shirt and answers the boss to his question. I got up in
the morning and switched on the TV set. It was a translation of the 24th meeting of the Communist party of the
Soviet Union. Then I switched on radio. It was a translation of the 24th meeting of the Communist party of the
Soviet Union. I didn’t even try to switch on an electric iron.
There is nothing like this now. I read and write in the Net everything I
want. Nobody blocks sites, moreover the government tries to computerize all the country. For $3-4 a month I can get
70 channels including the CNN and Euronews through the telephone connection. Euronews are even broadcasted by an
open standard channel with a translation in Russian. Nobody says me what I should watch – the CNN or Russian
channels. The only thing Putin wants in return is that I wouldn’t interfere in his affairs too :)
He is building capitalism and doesn’t want me hamper him. And it is OK
by the majority of people since all his opponents proved that they cannot suggest anything better. On the contrary,
everybody knows that they would just make things worse.
idesign
01-21-2008, 06:31 PM
There was an Englishman in the Soviet Union who taught
English. And his new Russian name became Richard Richardovich Dixon. :)
:lol: Dangerously close to an American politician. Using
nicknames he would be "Tricky Dick Dickovich Nixon".
I mostly agree with you, Idesign, but I think that many in the
West underestimate what happened in 90s in Russia.
Yes, the US is a very
liberal country. However, I know one thing about the US for sure. A friend of my father is a pensioner and he
hadn’t worked a day in the US. But he has an apartment, medical care which in the SU had top communist bosses
only and the like. During our capitalist reforms the old folks became just dirt under feet. As well as invalids and
anybody who was not able to build capitalism with the nails and teeth.
Also whole cites began to be controlled by gangsters. Posts of mayors or
governors were just bought by them. So Putin in some sense just returned the country to more or less normal
conditions. And since the citizens didn’t want to do anything everything was done by the Kremlin.
And I wouldn’t say that Putin is trying to control me.
Understood. The parallels with the US are limited I know.
Putin has a very different set of circumstances. Since there is no democratic tradition in Russia he must play his
role as benevolent dictator. Interesting that you said "back to normal", it is reminiscent of Czarist Russia no?
The oligarchy/mafia scheme was inevitable, as they were the only ones in place to fill the power/economic void
left by a dead Soviet system. On the other hand, the Soviets had a cabal of powerful people who ran everything
(aparatchiks), and many of them are the same characters operating in a different system. At least the
Communist/totalitarian control is gone, along with the Glorious Meeting of the 24th Komsomol/Comintern/Commitetye
Sovietskiye.
The ones caught in the middle are the ones who had their life and spirit sucked out of them by the
Soviet system, one might even say soul. All incentive was drained from a huge segment of population which is
capable of turning Russia into a greater nation than it already is. Who knows how many generations it will take
before the mentality of the "collective" leaves the minds of your people.
There was a soviet joke. A guy comes to the office in a rumpled
shirt and answers the boss to his question. I got up in the morning and switched on the TV set. It was a translation
of the 24th meeting of the Communist party of the Soviet Union. Then I switched on radio. It was a translation of
the 24th meeting of the Communist party of the Soviet Union. I didn’t even try to switch on an electric iron.
Very funny! It reminds me of myself when I turn on the TV and
hear most of the mainstream media gibberish which passes as "news". Fortunately for both of us, we have many
alternatives to the old
monopoly.
Nobody says me what I should watch – the CNN or Russian channels. The only thing Putin wants in return
is that I wouldn’t interfere in his affairs too :)
He is building
capitalism and doesn’t want me hamper him. And it is OK by the majority of people since all his opponents
proved that they cannot suggest anything better. On the contrary, everybody knows that they would just make things
worse.
By these comments I know that you are Russian! Welcome moi droog, we must drink
together some day. Your pragmatic optimism is a trait which many can learn from.
I'm genuinely curious Alex,
how long and how far do you think Putin can rule this way? Where do you think the nature of politics is going? Do
you think Russia needs a "Czar" like Putin or someone equally strong?
Good discussion, thank you.
Greg
idesign
01-21-2008, 07:02 PM
She shares
the same philosophy of Chavez in Venezuela and Ortega in Nicaragua. The USA and the rest of the world are about to
enter very dangerous and hard times.
Many people who have studied her, consider her an avowed
Leninist.:run:
I can see that Tongue. Its not such a far stretch from "Workers of the World Unite" to
"It Takes a Village to Raise a Child". At least Lenin told you up front what he was planning. Hillary's most
dangerous evil is her calculated deception.
And lets not forget Obama, he may be worse in that he's charismatic
and says nothing at all of any substance. Regurgitation with a nice smile.
Without being alarmist, I cautiously
agree with the remark about dangerous and hard times. There is a fundamental shift in political, economic and
social dynamics both within and between nations that I don't think many recognize, much less comprehend. The US
could be poised for disaster if it doesn't get its house in order.
All the while our US leaders are engaging in
the most trivial and pointless debates, esp on the Dem side. The GOP is only slightly better. As Rbt said, the
choices are not that great.
tounge
01-21-2008, 10:55 PM
Hillary's
most dangerous evil is her calculated deception. (Yes. To the Marxist, the LIE is a sacred tool to advance their
cause. Hillary is a dialectic in the Marxist tradition.)
And lets not forget Obama, he may be worse in that
he's charismatic and says nothing at all of any substance. Regurgitation with a nice smile.
(Agreed. He is an
empty suit who brings nothing whatsoever to the table.)
All the while our US leaders are engaging in the most
trivial and pointless debates, esp on the Dem side. The GOP is only slightly better. As Rbt said, the choices are
not that great.
( Agreed, the GOP although head and shoulders above the Democrats, are clueless as to he
direction the USA needs to go for it to continue to be a viable player on the world stage in the next quarter
century.)
Alex157
01-23-2008, 08:27 AM
Dangerously close to an American politician. Using nicknames he would be "Tricky
Dick Dickovich Nixon".
I was said that his answer was ‘I am not a crook’ :)
Understood. The
parallels with the US are limited I know. Putin has a very different set of circumstances. Since there is no
democratic tradition in Russia he must play his role as benevolent dictator.
Yes, I think that
it is his point.
Interesting that you said "back to normal", it is reminiscent of Czarist Russia no?
No, I think that the fact that autocracy lasted so long in
Russia was the main cause of all troubles.
When I said ‘back to normal’
I meant that now the police controls cities not bandits, old folks get some pensions and the like.
The
oligarchy/mafia scheme was inevitable, as they were the only ones in place to fill the power/economic void left by a
dead Soviet system. On the other hand, the Soviets had a cabal of powerful people who ran everything (aparatchiks),
and many of them are the same characters operating in a different system. At least the Communist/totalitarian
control is gone, along with the Glorious Meeting of the 24th Komsomol/Comintern/Commitetye Sovietskiye.
The problem is, I believe, that the reforms of 90s hadn’t
touched the bases of the Soviet system. Actually, Soviet economic of the Brezhnev’s era was a mix between a Marxist
control on factories and the black market. The reformers just legalized the black market but it didn’t change the
core things.
The ones caught in the middle are the ones who
had their life and spirit sucked out of them by the Soviet system, one might even say soul. All incentive was
drained from a huge segment of population which is capable of turning Russia into a greater nation than it already
is. Who knows how many generations it will take before the mentality of the "collective" leaves the minds of your
people.
Yes, Russia
lost several millions of her best citizens and I am not sure that we will be able to rise again.
And indeed it’ll take a long long time till our distorted mentality will
change.
By these
comments I know that you are Russian! Welcome moi droog
Òû
çÃÃåøü
ðóññêèé?
:)
we must drink together some day. Your pragmatic optimism is a
trait which many can learn from.
I am ready to drink (I prefer Scottish whisky :) ), and we are optimists
indeed, but our optimism is not pragmatic :). It is based on two main Russian conceptual words ‘avos’ and ‘nebos’.
Say, you drive to a river and see that the bridge may collapse any moment. If you a Russian you would say ‘nebos, it
won’t collapse’ and ‘avos I will be able to cross it’. With these words you should drive over the bridge without any
thoughts :)
I'm
genuinely curious Alex, how long and how far do you think Putin can rule this way?
Greg, I am sure that Putin well understands that such a system which is
based on one person is unstable. Definitely there is a plan of building of a two party-system in Russia. There is
already a party which is planned for this role. However, will it be a real political system or just an imitation as
it often happens here we’ll see soon :)
Where do you think
the nature of politics is going? Do you think Russia needs a "Czar" like Putin or someone equally strong?
I think that
nobody who can rule his/her life doesn’t need any czars. But definitely this dream of a good and kind czar is in
Russian mentality. The problem is that czars are never good and kind :)
idesign
01-23-2008, 05:59 PM
Ok, Putin and the Kremlin
understand the need for a two-party system, will they say 'nebos and 'avos?
One thing that concerns me is the
way Putin handled himself during the Ukranian election a few years ago. Also his most recent "sabre rattling"
exercises. He's a strong-man in Ivan IV's clothing, but I think perhaps he knows he can't get away with it.
I
hope it is as you say, and there will be a true choice. The only remaining question is does Russia have a leader
who will come from the people to lead a new party? Say, a Peter in Gorbachov clothing? Maybe Peter is not the best
choice for that example, but you understand.
к вашему
здоровью :cheers:
idesign
01-23-2008, 06:10 PM
( Agreed,
the GOP although head and shoulders above the Democrats, are clueless as to he direction the USA needs to go for it
to continue to be a viable player on the world stage in the next quarter century.)
Unfortunately, part of
the "head and shoulders" party of the first part just quit the race. Fred Thompson was the only *true* conservative
of the bunch.
While any of the others are a better choice than either of the Dems, it now comes down to
compromise.
Alex157
01-25-2008, 01:49 PM
Ok, Putin and the Kremlin understand the need for a two-party system, will they
say 'nebos and 'avos?
Well, Putin is not quite
Russian. That is, he is an ethnic Russian, of course, but he has been a spy in Germany for 10 years and adopted a
lot from German mentality, I think. :)
There is our famous movie hero a
shtandartenfurer SS Shtirliz (who was in reality our Russian agent, of course) and Putin is something like this :)
One thing that concerns me is the way Putin handled
himself during the Ukranian election a few years ago.
Well, nobody’s perfect :)
Also his most recent "sabre rattling" exercises. He's a strong-man in Ivan
IV's clothing, but I think perhaps he knows he can't get away with it.
I hope it is as you say, and there will be a true choice.
The only remaining question is does Russia have a leader who will come from the people to lead a new party?
No, it is out of consideration :) . It should be a guy
from the Kremlin who would coordinate all his actions with it. If there is a second strong leader it will be a civil
war.
Say, a Peter in Gorbachov clothing? Maybe Peter is
not the best choice for that example, but you understand.
Yes, the Russian population had lessened by third under Peter :) No, I think that a
plan is that it should be a second party controlled by the Kremlin and when people get used to a notion that after
electing a new leader heavens won’t come down to Russia with angels who will work for us it will be possible
to make the system more realistic.
к вашему здоровью
I have heard that Russians in movies say ‘na zdorovie’? Is it true? We never say it in
reality :)
Поднимем
наши стаканы за две
великие нации –
русских и
американцев :)
idesign
01-25-2008, 07:10 PM
Поднимем наши
стаканы за две
великие нации –
русских и
американцев
"Let us raise our glasses to two
great nations - Russia and America".
очень
хорошо, I owe you a bottle of Scotch Whiskey.
Yes, I have heard "na zdorovie"
in the movies (Local Hero), but in my post I simply translated "to your health" in a translator. My Russian is 25
years old and has not aged as well as a good whiskey.
I appreciate your insight Alexander. What is your
patromymic?
I will think about your reply and will certainly ask more questions.
Alex157
01-29-2008, 10:25 AM
î÷åÃü
õîðîøî, I owe you a bottle of
Scotch Whiskey.
OK, and I owe you a bottle of vodka :) Do you remember as they changed
their watches in ‘Red Hot’? :)
Yes, I have heard "na zdorovie" in the movies (Local Hero),
but in my post I simply translated "to your health" in a translator. My Russian is 25 years old and has not aged as
well as a good whiskey.
Well, a bit more accurate would be ‘za tvoje/vashe zdorovje’ but your
Russian is still quite OK :)
I appreciate your
insight Alexander. What is your patromymic?
No, I am
Alexey - as it was a real name of Gorky, not as Pushkin’s :)
I am Alexey Lvovich, how is your one? :)
idesign
01-29-2008, 06:02 PM
Understood, but I never saw "Red
Hot", is it good? Who are the primary actors?
Ok good Alexey, Gorky and Pushkin are two very interesting and
different men. I think you are more like Pushkin in ideals if not name.
We do not use patromymics, so I could be
either Yosef Grigorovich, or Odelovich using my father's name.
To be honest, I prefer whiskey too, so we should
have a wonderful time drinking. :)
We in America look eagerly toward political and social change in Russia, and
we also understand that it is Russia who will determine her future. I'm glad that we are now "friends", and of
course we wish to remain friends. Sometimes it is difficult among friends to achieve a balance as we know.
A
question: what do you think is the most desired social change among most of the population? I assume it would be
economic. If so, do you look mostly for economic freedom? Do you think Russia mostly desires for a Western ideal
of economic success?
More interestingly, do you care so much about the political system if the economic benefits
are good on the street? Assuming that the successor to Putin will follow his policies, do you think those policies
are oriented more to achieving a place in some new world order or a new Russian independence or dominance?
A lot
of questions, sorry, but I look forward to your answer.
Greg
Alex157
02-02-2008, 07:13 AM
Understood, but I never saw "Red Hot", is it good? Who are the primary
actors?
Well, it was popular in Russia (as well as all movies
with the governator, though). Another leading role was played by Belushi.
There were some funny lines there. For example, the
Soviet policeman suggested to his American colleague (played by Belushi) to shoot all drug dealers and the like. He
said that it would be a good idea, but politicians won’t allow this. ‘Shoot them first’ was an answer.
Ok good Alexey, Gorky and Pushkin are two very
interesting and different men. I think you are more like Pushkin in ideals if not name.
I heard that the main reason why Pushkin wrote verses was
that he always had huge card debts and tried to get some money to pay :)
We do not use
patromymics
It is not of any importance :). As long as a person knows
the name of his father he/she has patronymics :). If not, the patronymics will be thought up :)
so I could be either Yosef Grigorovich, or
Odelovich using my father's name.
Why Yosef? Greg is quite OK :) And it cannot be two ones
:). What is the name of your father?
To be honest, I prefer whiskey too, so we
should have a wonderful time drinking.
[/
quote]
OK, I prefer Johnny Walker. I think that it a lady’s
drink but I don’t like hard drinks.
[quote] We in America look eagerly toward political and
social change in Russia, and we also understand that it is Russia who will determine her future. I'm glad that we
are now "friends", and of course we wish to remain friends. Sometimes it is difficult among friends to achieve a
balance as we know.
Yeah, it is the last thing I would want – to have the US
as enemy again.
A question: what do you think is the most
desired social change among most of the population? I assume it would be economic. If so, do you look mostly for
economic freedom?
Actually, I am not sure. I think that economy is only a
part of politics. Again, you never are able to create good economy without political stability.
Why everybody is glad to keep money in Switzerland? It is
a safe place, in the center of Europe and NATO defends my beloved money (no matter that Switzerland itself is not a
member of it).
The problem is that everybody knows that
any second the government may rob people. Nobody will be surprised if tomorrow it will be announced that all rubles
should be changed in proportion 1:10 after showing papers where they come from. In Moscow there are exchange booths
at each corner and we keep our money in dollars and euros. Nobody trusts rubles, nobody trusts the government. So
rich people just make money here and have some infrastructure for the recreation – brothels and small gyms. They try
to send serious money abroad.
It is very difficult to
develop economy under such political and social circumstances.
Do you think Russia mostly desires for a Western
ideal of economic success?
Politically we are total morons, so it doesn’t matter
what we desire :). I think that we desperately need for colleges of high economical and political education. When
there are several thousands educated Russian guys – it will be possible to discuss what they want.
However, I think yes, many prefer the Western way of
economics now.
More interestingly, do you care so much about
the political system if the economic benefits are good on the street?
Sure, sure. Without a firm political system everything
may collapse in a second. It happened in 1998 already.
Assuming that the successor to Putin will follow
his policies, do you think those policies are oriented more to achieving a place in some new world order or a new
Russian independence or dominance?
I think
that Medvedev is a quite pro-Western politician and he’s going to continue to try to find a place under the
capitalists sun for Russia.
Greg, who do you think is going to be the next president of the US? :)
I'm thinking there is a bit of a
translation thing here... the movie I recall I think was called "Red Heat" not "Red Hot"...
idesign
02-02-2008, 08:40 PM
Well, it was popular in Russia (as well as all movies
with the governator, though). Another leading role was played by Belushi.
There were some funny lines there. For example, the
Soviet policeman suggested to his American colleague (played by Belushi) to shoot all drug dealers and the like. He
said that it would be a good idea, but politicians won’t allow this. ‘Shoot them first’ was an
answer.
You might also add the
lawyers...
I heard that the
main reason why Pushkin wrote verses was that he always had huge card debts and tried to get some money to pay :)
Ok Alex, we will not drink and play cards in
the same evening, unless you are like Pushkin. :) But if I win, you could pay your debt with a poem that would win
the heart of a lovely Russian woman.
Why Yosef? Greg is quite OK :) And it cannot be two
ones :). What is the name of your father?
My
name is Joseph Gregory. My father is Odell.
OK, I prefer Johnny Walker. I think that it a
lady’s drink but I don’t like hard drinks.
Johnny Walker is a good drink, but I prefer
single malt scotch, there are many. I will bring you a bottle of Glenmorangie. Scotch is definitely not a lady's
drink, but some women will drink it. I will tell you a story when we are drinking Scotch
together.
[/quote]
Yeah, it is
the last thing I would want – to have the US as enemy again.
Actually, I am not sure. I think that economy is only a
part of politics. Again, you never are able to create good economy without political stability.
Why everybody is glad to keep money in Switzerland? It is
a safe place, in the center of Europe and NATO defends my beloved money (no matter that Switzerland itself is not a
member of it).
The problem is that everybody knows that
any second the government may rob people. Nobody will be surprised if tomorrow it will be announced that all rubles
should be changed in proportion 1:10 after showing papers where they come from. In Moscow there are exchange booths
at each corner and we keep our money in dollars and euros. Nobody trusts rubles, nobody trusts the government.
I understand, it is the same worry that the
West has with Putin. He is seen as a figure who is not known, and not predictable. Also, the history of Russia
will always be "an enigma wrapped in a mystery". As with all countries, history and culture are a weight which
moves slowly and with much effort.
So rich people just make money here
and have some infrastructure for the recreation – brothels and small gyms.
So, you are saying that the prostitutes are in
good physical shape? Maybe I will visit you soon.
:)
They try to send serious money
abroad.
It is very difficult to develop economy under
such political and social circumstances.
Yes,
capitalism suffers when capital leaves the country. Its too bad. Political stability is the first requirement, you
know this. That is the main question with the Putin dynasty. They must create an environment of national stability
and growth.
You are right, politics will lead economics, and in Russia there has never been an environment
conducive to capitalism.
Politically we are total
morons, so it doesn’t matter what we desire :).
Again, spoken like nobody but a Russian can
speak. You are a wonderful people waiting to be born into the world. What can you do? I suppose you can wait for
time to deliver changes which may or may not happen. You've never had politics in your homes, and now you see the
world but have no choices.
[/quote]
I think that we
desperately need for colleges of high economical and political education. When there are several thousands educated
Russian guys – it will be possible to discuss what they want.
However, I think yes, many prefer the Western way of
economics now.
Yes, an educated
political/economic infrastructure is much needed. The USA is the "university of the world" in many ways, and I
hope Russians will be able to take advantage.
I think
that Medvedev is a quite pro-Western politician and he’s going to continue to try to find a place under the
capitalists sun for Russia.
I hope he is not
cut from the same cloth as Putin.
Greg, who do you think is going to be the next president of the US? :)
Good question
Alexey. A super-model I think...
koolking1
02-03-2008, 07:38 AM
that was funny but unfortunately too close to the truth if our media is to be "The
Decider".
I'm enjoying this thread!!!!
idesign
02-04-2008, 08:48 PM
Yes, many say about her the same
things… It is strange, her husband is nobody’s fool, I think :)
It seems that he is everybody's fool, as we
see now, and, in my opinion, during his presidency.
tounge
02-04-2008, 09:01 PM
The guy cheats at golf too.
:smite:
idesign
02-04-2008, 10:51 PM
The guy
cheats at golf too. :smite:
Be careful tongue, it all depends on the meaning of what the word "is" is.
It can get you a few "strokes" on the golf course.... ;)
tounge
02-05-2008, 11:26 AM
Like my Granddaddy told me,when he
taught me the wonderful game of Golf.
" A person who cheats at golf, can't be trusted at anything.":cheers:
Alex157
02-05-2008, 12:15 PM
You might also add
the lawyers...
Yes, Greg, I know that Americans don’t like lawyers very much :)
Ok Alex, we will not drink and play cards in the same evening,
unless you are like Pushkin. But
if I win, you could pay your debt with a poem that would win the heart of a lovely Russian woman.
Should I write in English? :) It will win the heart of a
lovely Russian woman more likely :)
My name is Joseph Gregory. My father is Odell.
So your Russian
name is Joseph Odellovich. Nothing difficult :)
There are no second
names in Russia :)
Johnny Walker is a good drink, but I prefer single malt scotch,
there are many.
Yesterday a friend of my father brought Chivas Regal. Not bad stuff too,
I think.
I will
bring you a bottle of Glenmorangie. Scotch is definitely not a lady's drink, but some women will drink it.
Well, I think that
the male drink is rum. :)
I will tell you a story when we are drinking Scotch together.
OK, when are going to vizit Moscow? :)
I understand, it
is the same worry that the West has with Putin. He is seen as a figure who is not known, and not predictable. Also,
the history of Russia will always be "an enigma wrapped in a mystery". As with all countries, history and culture
are a weight which moves slowly and with much effort.
The problem is that PUtin (and his guys too) is the most predictable one
from all our politicians. He has a quite clear idea. To make Russia more stable and rich and then to start
experiments with democracy.
Actually, I am a pro-Western person, but I
am against democracy here now. We haven’t a middle class and without it it is a risky business.
So, you are saying that the prostitutes are in good physical
shape? Maybe I will visit you soon.
Yeah, in great shape, everybody is welcome :)
Yes, capitalism suffers when capital leaves the country. Its too
bad. Political stability is the first requirement, you know this. That is the main question with the Putin dynasty.
They must create an environment of national stability and growth.
They
try…
You are right, politics will lead economics, and in Russia
there has never been an environment conducive to capitalism.
Well, I think that in the end of the XIX century Russia was
a more or less normal European Empire. However as well as Germans and Japanese we had monarchy too long. It is not
healthy.
Again,
spoken like nobody but a Russian can speak. You are a wonderful people waiting to be born into the world. What can
you do? I suppose you can wait for time to deliver changes which may or may not happen. You've never had politics
in your homes, and now you see the world but have no choices.
The main problem is that talented youth prefer to leave the country, not
to try to improve it. So far we have no chances for more or less good life in near future.
I hope he is not cut from the same cloth as Putin.
Believe me, the other our politicians are much worse. There
are half-fascists as Zhirionvisy or the communist morons. But the worse thing is our stupid, worthless and ignorant
so called ‘democrats’…
Good question Alexey. A super-model I think...
Well, now a joke is
popular here - ‘whom you are going to vote for on the elections of Medvedev?’.
It seems that your situation is a bit more complicated…
idesign
02-08-2008, 06:55 PM
The problem is that
PUtin (and his guys too) is the most predictable one from all our politicians. He has a quite clear idea. To make
Russia more stable and rich and then to start experiments with democracy.
Actually, I am a pro-Western person, but I am against democracy here now. We
haven’t a middle class and without it it is a risky business.
Well, I think that in the
end of the XIX century Russia was a more or less normal European Empire. However as well as Germans and Japanese we
had monarchy too long. It is not healthy.
Believe me, the other our
politicians are much worse. There are half-fascists as Zhirionvisy or the communist morons. But the worse thing is
our stupid, worthless and ignorant so called ‘democrats’…
I
understand what you say about Putin. For you, it is a question of progress, and it is imperative for certain things
to be established after a long communist rule. Its true that without a middle class Russia could change from one
socialism to another form of socialism.
Do you see opportunities for a middle-class to grow? Is there a good
environment for small business to start and prosper? What businesses are growing? Is employment increasing? Do
you have any pets?
I imagine that its difficult for a Russian to think about Democracy. We have talked about
this. Your election choice of Medvedev is only slightly different than our "choices" of two parties. You have a
choice with one face, ours has several.
OK, let me be sure about it, I will visit, we will drink and play cards,
I will win, you will write a beautiful poem to a beautiful Russian woman, I will meet her and be happy. I will
bring the Scotch, do you prefer her to be blonde or brunette?
Alex157
02-14-2008, 12:19 PM
I understand what
you say about Putin. For you, it is a question of progress, and it is imperative for certain things to be
established after a long communist rule. Its true that without a middle class Russia could change from one socialism
to another form of socialism.
I wouldn’t say that I am against socialism. My sister lives in France
and they have much more socialism than we had in the Soviet Union. Actually, I think that the US have much of it
too.
Do you see
opportunities for a middle-class to grow? Is there a good environment for small business to start and prosper?
It is a difficult question. Under Yeltsin average mobsters in the Moscow
region had some thousand dollars a moth (it was very good money – for comparison girls in the library near my house
got $20 a month for full day work). Everything was so criminalized that it was difficult to distinguish business
from crime.
Plus don’t forget about fantastic corruption on all levels.
Now the government got back the control over the country, but it means that you have to have your men in power to be
protected. If your business becomes a problem for your rivals you will be crushed by them with a support of the
authorities. For example, it is always easy to find out that you broke some rules of fire-safety or something like
this. Your factory will be closed for inspection for a couple of months and it will be enough you never can raise
again.
What
businesses are growing? Is employment increasing?
I cannot say for special
branches but salaries definitely grow. But again, nobody knows what happened tomorrow.
Once again, till they
haven’t built some political system it may fall any moment.
Do you have any
pets?
You mean
domestic animals? Well, I don’t like cats that much and a dog needs to be walked with it everyday – it is not
possible for me :)
What about you?
I imagine that its difficult for a Russian to think about
Democracy. We have talked about this. Your election choice of Medvedev is only slightly different than our "choices"
of two parties.
Well, first that’s because you are too right country :). Actually, you
have two similar right parties. In France, for example, they have really left and right parties. But all the same it
is a choice. I think that a choice is possible between politically close candidates only. Yes, you can choose
between Hitler and Lenin but one time only :). The next elections are going to be some 70 years later.
OK, let me be sure
about it, I will visit, we will drink and play cards, I will win, you will write a beautiful poem to a beautiful
Russian woman, I will meet her and be happy.
OK, but if I win, you write a poem and I marry her. :) OK? :)
I will bring the Scotch, do you prefer her to be blonde or
brunette?
I
prefer red-hair girls :)
idesign
02-26-2008, 08:07 PM
Hi Alexey, I've been thinking
about our conversation and I am deeply perplexed and disturbed. After reading your insightful posts I thought you
were a smart man. Your last comments make me think you are not so intelligent. How can you prefer a red-hair girl?
Everyone knows that a brunette is better.
History has proven that red is inflammatory, look at Lenin and his
passion for "Red". What a disaster!
Seriously Alexey, I've been thinking about our discussion, and will
contribute something hopefully meaningful.
belgareth
02-26-2008, 08:33 PM
Be nice now, my wife is a
redhead!
DrSmellThis
02-26-2008, 08:45 PM
Redheads!!
Alex157
02-28-2008, 12:29 PM
Hi Alexey, I've been thinking about our conversation and I
am deeply perplexed and disturbed. After reading your insightful posts I thought you were a smart man. Your last
comments make me think you are not so intelligent. How can you prefer a red-hair girl?
Hi, Greg. I think that it is just a misunderstanding. I am really smart and it is a
linguistic problem. There is a word
‘рыжий[/FONT
]’ in Russian. It is something average between
orange and yellow, I think. How hairs could be red in the first place if a person is not a punk or something like
this?
Everyone knows that a brunette is better.
Well, brunettes are good too as well as blonds :)
History has proven that red is inflammatory, look at Lenin
and his passion for "Red". What a disaster!
If Lenin was
running about with a
‘рыжий[FON
T=Verdana]’ flag, I doubt that he would succeed…
Seriously Alexey, I've been thinking about our discussion, and will contribute
something hopefully meaningful.
So you will
be able to answer my question? :) Who is going to be your next president? I can tell you as a secret that the name
of our one will be Medvedev. By the way, he is half-Jew. Maybe it is time for you to elect the half-black guy? :)
DrSmellThis
02-28-2008, 05:04 PM
I like Kasparov a lot, at
least as a man. I know a bit about his politics, but not enough to evaluate him thoughly. Too bad he has no chance
in Russia, just like our best candidates have no chance here.
idesign
02-28-2008, 07:56 PM
Hi, Greg. I think that it is just a
misunderstanding. I am really smart and it is a linguistic problem.
Alexey, it is definitely a
misunderstanding, and it is my mistake. My comments about "smart" and "intelligent" were only a joke about
preferring red haired girls. Also, you can see that you have allies in your opinion!
In our conversations I have
always understood and appreciated your intelligence. I understand the linguistic problem with our communication,
and I value our talks very much.
Well, brunettes are
good too as well as blonds :)
I
agree, hair color is less important than other things. :)
So you will be able
to answer my question? :) Who is going to be your next president? I can tell you as a secret that the name of our
one will be Medvedev. By the way, he is half-Jew. Maybe it is time for you to elect the half-black guy? :)
Medvedev? It is good to know such secrets! Yes, I understand about the
half-black guy (Obama). Unfortunately he is an empty vessel.
Do you think since Medvedev is half-Jew that
Russian policy will change with the Arab countries? It is amazing that even a half-Jew will be President of Russia.
Stalin will have diarrhea in his grave, as he deserves.
I'm avoiding your question about our next President,
and will will continue that strategy. :) My opinion about a future President is worth a cup of coffee, measured in
rubles or US dollars, it is the same now. If you read other places on this forum you will see my opinion, but here
it is a secret. ;)
idesign
02-28-2008, 09:00 PM
Be nice
now, my wife is a redhead!
Redheads!!
Did I say brunettes were
better? Shame on me. :hammer:
Alex157
02-29-2008, 02:59 AM
I like
Kasparov a lot, at least as a man. I know a bit about his politics, but not enough to evaluate him thoughly. Too bad
he has no chance in Russia
Yes, he has not a least chance.
http://www.reactioner.com/img/1.jpg
http://imgs2.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2006/04/17/43804_1.jpg
[F
ONT=Arial]http://www.newsru.com/pict/id/large/979023_20070803101227.gif[/FO
NT]
http://pix.lenta.ru/photo/2006/07/11/another/25.jpg[/FON
T]
[FONT=Arial]His most close ally is Limonov, a leader of the National-Bolshevik party with the
Soviet emblem on the Hitler’s flag. He encourages young guys for hooligan actions against the authorities and
when they are put in jail, he tries to capitalize on their broken lives. He got a sentence for organization of an
armed Nazi gang, but was pardoned then, of course, the Kremlin needs such guys.
The third guy in this beautiful company is a former Putin’s prime
minister Michael Kasyanov, a thief with a nickname ‘Misha two percents’.
Kasparov has a good command of English and manages to show himself as a
leader of Russian democracy (he had 10 of his articles published in the Washington Post for a month!!!!) but in
reality his popularity even among democrats is close to zero.
We really
had quite enough of people with Hitler’s and Bolshevik’s flags in their hands…
But he was a good chess player and I am sure that
now he really thinks that he is absolutely right… :) Alas, it is a key characteristic of the soviet mentality.
Alex157
02-29-2008, 03:04 AM
Alexey, it
is definitely a misunderstanding, and it is my mistake. My comments about "smart" and "intelligent" were only a joke
about preferring red haired girls.
Greg, I understood your joke but unfortunately my answer was not a joke. It was a sheer lie.
I am not smart and since it is impossible to cover it for a long time it is a good opportunity now to say about it
:) But also I cannot say that I am stupid – it is something average and I think that it is not the worst case :)
Also, you can see that you have allies
in your opinion!
That’s why I said it. I know that many
like red-hair girls and tried to make friends here.
In our
conversations I have always understood and appreciated your intelligence.
Well, as I said my intelligence is an optimal balance between
smartness and idiocy :) I won’t invent a wheel but not a complete idiot. : ) Putin likes such ones most of all.
I understand the linguistic problem
with our communication, and I value our talks very much.
Me too. I like the place. I also attend the AWE forum where people exchange with floods of
four-letter insults but there is a more homely atmosphere here :)
I agree, hair color is less important than other things.
You mean a color of eyes? Yes, maybe it is even more
important than if is a girl a blond or a brunette…
Medvedev? It is good to know such secrets! Yes, I understand about the
half-black guy (Obama). Unfortunately he is an empty vessel.
Really? So Mrs. Clinton will be a Democrat candidate?
It is strange but everybody here discusses Obama and Clinton, but I
don’t even know who will be run from Republicans.
Do you think since
Medvedev is half-Jew that Russian policy will change with the Arab countries?
Actually, we have good
relations with Israel as it is. However, maybe you are right and he’ll change a bit the foreign policy. It hadn’t
come in my head…
It is amazing that even a half-Jew will be President of Russia.
Stalin will have diarrhea in his grave, as he deserves.
Well, I am not sure that Stalin was an anti-Semite. There were many Jews
in his company. Stalin exterminated anybody who he considered as a threat, not by racial reasons. Indeed his started
an anti-Semite campaign and as they said even planned public execution of Jews (personally, I think that it was one
of the reasons why he was killed – it was too much for the communists), but at that time he was already so crazy
that it might be any other nation. Judging by the documentaries he hardly understood what he was doing that time.
I'm avoiding your
question about our next President, and will will continue that strategy.
My opinion about a future
President is worth a cup of coffee, measured in rubles or US dollars
It was a joke about the currency rate in the Soviet Union among pounds,
dollars and rubles – a pound of well-dried rubles costs a dollar.
it is the same now.
If you read other places on this forum you will see my opinion, but here it is a secret.
Well, maybe you’ll tell me the name a bit later :)
DrSmellThis
02-29-2008, 06:05 AM
Thanks for the interesting
perspective on Mr. Gary Kasparov.
My exposure to him came through international chess culture, within which he
seemed like a great guy, an admirer of Western things, and defender of democracy. I hung out on his website a lot
for a while. Within that arena, he demonstrated a lot of integrity where others didn't, was very rational, and was
respectful of others regardless of background.
Certainly, if he is a Nazi, that is a problem.
Alex157
02-29-2008, 07:00 AM
Certainly, if he is a Nazi, that is a problem.
Of course not! Nothing of the kind.
Actually, I wouldn’t call Limonov a Nazi too now.
He is
for democracy now and I would agree with most of what he SAYS. However, it has nothing in common with what he thinks
if he does it at all. When he shot from a gun on Sarajevo he was a ‘patriot’, then he was a
‘nationalist’, now he is a ‘democrat’. In reality he is a yellow writer and does anything
possible to be popular.
What is on the photo is not real Nazis or
Bolsheviks – it is a political circus. As well as our ‘democrats’ are just clowns. I say it so
confident since I worked with one of our two ‘democratic’ parties and know everything there. When I
watched them on TV I thought the same you think about Kasparov. When I talked to them I saw who they are…
As for Kasparov he is so blind in his desire to fight against the
regime that cannot understand that the connection with such persons kills any chances to be supported by people.
an admirer of Western things, and defender of democracy. I
hung out on his website a lot for a while. Within that arena, he demonstrated a lot of integrity where others
didn't, was very rational, and was respectful of others regardless of background.
in words yes. But when it comes to a question who should be a leader of the
organization and how to decide what to do, all Russian democrats forget in a second about democracy. Who will be a
leader of the Russian democratic party (it is obvious that there is no pro-Western electorate for 10 or even 2 such
parties)? Me! Me!!! Me!!!!! Me!!!!!!!!!!!
All they said is very logical
and rational except for one very verrrry small thing. They forget that people wanted democracy here. But our
democrats were so selfish, greedy, worthless and ignorant that people just hadn’t any choice but to vote for
the FSB colonel.
Imagine that you live in town where an average
salary is $20 a month and all town is under the bandits who kill, rape and rob everybody. And some day guys in
uniform come and say – do you want democracy further, lads, or you allow us to put some order here? We
don’t promise you freedom and democracy but you don’t deserve it as you can see it
yourselves.
What will be an answer? Russians said yes, we want some
order.
Now Kasparov (under Hitler’s flags in addition) is
trying to explain Russians that their choice was wrong. The only thing I can answer him – yes, you are right
and I am wrong, but I prefer to be wrong.
The former KGB agents under
the Putin’s command fought against the bandits and they won. And, yes, they did it according their lights.
They just shoot anybody who didn’t understand that times changed.
Before I understand what Kasparov and other democrats want – either bandits again
or us to fight them while they will babble – I won’t raise a finger as well as the absolute majority of
the Russians :)
Alex157
02-29-2008, 07:27 AM
anyway I asked Kasparov's
supporters what they themselves think of it :)
http://forum.kasparov.ru/viewtopic.php?p=65004#65004
DrSmellThis
02-29-2008, 05:29 PM
I certainly can't comment on
Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.
But a lot of what I hear you saying is that
Kasparov is an idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy. One major problem you
bring up is that criminals and thugs are in power positions under the guise of democracy, and abusing the people in
every unspeakable way.
The apparent conflict between democracy and safety happens lots of places around the
world. For lots of reasons, I'd never want to tell another people what kind of government and legal system they
should have.
The fact of having a formal democracy -- in name -- in no way means one's rulership and political
system can't be horrible. That's just one variable.
To everyone, some measure of safety and security is of
paramount importance when you don't have it.
Is it possible to instill public safety and basic human rights
while constructing a democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?
I think so, but that
doesn't mean things in Russia are set up with the right leaders and popular support to do it now. My sincere hope
for Russia is that it happens sooner rather than later; and that you will see practical steps taken on a regular
basis. It has to come from the people.
You have to have rule of law for everyone, including the rich and
powerful.
We have problems related to that here, but they now look very different. Democracy always carries with
it the problem of the powerful exploiting the weak, since in an absolute form of democracy, people and entities are
free to take as much power as they can, no matter how greedy they are. That is why we have laws regulating
corporations, and problems here with the widening gap between the rich and poor. Here our "Democrats" have one
approach to the problem, and Republicans another, for example. (Some would argue their approaches are too similar,
and both fail.)
Democracy without justice is failed democracy.
But in the early days of our country, with
the "wild west" (population where law had not yet been established) and Native American wars, there was rampant
lawlessness and violence in many places.
I'd never recommend anyone to do it the way we did, even though it
more or less worked out over time.
You all have to find your own path.
As a nation, we certainly need to
keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly try to force some ideal of democracy
down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our thinking and behavior in this
respect.
idesign
03-01-2008, 05:47 PM
I wouldn’t call Limonov a Nazi too now.
He is for democracy now and I would agree with most of what he SAYS.
However, it has nothing in common with what he thinks if he does it at all. When he shot from a gun on Sarajevo he
was a ‘patriot’, then he was a ‘nationalist’, now he is a ‘democrat’. In reality
he is a yellow writer and does anything possible to be popular.
It seems that your politicians are learning the American style of politics. However, in our "advanced"
politics, the candidates will say as little as possible about what they really think. Limonov changes his position
to be popular, our candidates work 24 hours to find ways to be popular without taking a real position.
As for Kasparov he is so blind in his desire
to fight against the regime that cannot understand that the connection with such persons kills any chances to be
supported by people.
Kasparov is an amateur, he will find
more moderate allies in the future, if he is as smart in politics as he is in chess.
But when it comes to a question who should be a leader of the
organization and how to decide what to do, all Russian democrats forget in a second about democracy. Who will be a
leader of the Russian democratic party (it is obvious that there is no pro-Western electorate for 10 or even 2 such
parties)? Me! Me!!! Me!!!!! Me!!!!!!!!!!!
All they said is very logical
and rational except for one very verrrry small thing. They forget that people wanted democracy here.
I wonder if this is because Russians have no experience,
perhaps even no idea about how the democratic process works? A young Democracy requires unselfish leaders who have
more interest in advancing freedom than their own particular interests. This is very distant from any Russian
social or political experience.
I think that in Russia, Democracy will not be "born", but will grow. But only if
there is a leader to articulate and inspire such an idea to the people. DrSmellThis said this, it is a movement of
the people, with a leader who thinks about freedom more than self
interest.
But our democrats were so selfish,
greedy, worthless and ignorant that people just hadn’t any choice but to vote for the FSB colonel.
see above comments about Democrats.
Perhaps Putin is a
necessary transitional figure. Do you think Russia needs such a leader to establish order so that other political
parties have time to mature?
Before I
understand what Kasparov and other democrats want – either bandits again or us to fight them while they will
babble – I won’t raise a finger as well as the absolute majority of the Russians
:)
DST has written most eloquently on this question, I cannot improve on his
comments.
I cannot forecast to you the action of
Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma: but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian
national interest. (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24927.html)
http://www.quotationspage.com/icon_blank.gif
Sir Winston Churchill (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Sir_Winston_C
hurchill/) (1874 - 1965), Radio speech, 1939
Alexey, what do you think of
this quote as it applies to modern Russia?
idesign
03-01-2008, 06:00 PM
As a nation, we certainly need to keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly
try to force some ideal of democracy down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our
thinking and behavior in this respect.
Doc, great post. I printed it so I can read it at leisure and
develop thoughts.
As for this last section, I totally agree that we need to support and help countries develop
their *own* manner of governing. I do think that the idea of Democracy is flexible enough to encompass any number
of "tailored" systems, some perhaps more centrally controlled, some less so.
belgareth
03-01-2008, 08:26 PM
I
certainly can't comment on Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.
But a lot of what I
hear you saying is that Kasparov is an idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy.
One major problem you bring up is that criminals and thugs are in power positions under the guise of democracy, and
abusing the people in every unspeakable way.
The apparent conflict between democracy and safety happens lots of
places around the world. For lots of reasons, I'd never want to tell another people what kind of government and
legal system they should have.
The fact of having a formal democracy -- in name -- in no way means one's
rulership and political system can't be horrible. That's just one variable.
To everyone, some measure of
safety and security is of paramount importance when you don't have it.
Is it possible to instill public safety
and basic human rights while constructing a democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?
I
think so, but that doesn't mean things in Russia are set up with the right leaders and popular support to do it
now. My sincere hope for Russia is that it happens sooner rather than later; and that you will see practical steps
taken on a regular basis. It has to come from the people.
You have to have rule of law for everyone, including
the rich and powerful.
We have problems related to that here, but they now look very different. Democracy always
carries with it the problem of the powerful exploiting the weak, since in an absolute form of democracy, people and
entities are free to take as much power as they can, no matter how greedy they are. That is why we have laws
regulating corporations, and problems here with the widening gap between the rich and poor. Here our "Democrats"
have one approach to the problem, and Republicans another, for example. (Some would argue their approaches are too
similar, and both fail.)
Democracy without justice is failed democracy.
But in the early days of our
country, with the "wild west" (population where law had not yet been established) and Native American wars, there
was rampant lawlessness and violence in many places.
I'd never recommend anyone to do it the way we did, even
though it more or less worked out over time.
You all have to find your own path.
As a nation, we certainly
need to keep practicality in mind when supporting the Russian people, and not blindly try to force some ideal of
democracy down people's throats. As a nation, we've been too "black and white" in our thinking and behavior in
this respect.
Mostly I agree with what you are saying but I think you are putting forth a misconception
about the early days of this country. There was far less lawlessness here than the movies would have you believe,
for many reasons. One is that people were more spread out and conflict happened less often. People had to rely on
their neighbors far more than they do today which discouraged lawlessness, or if not lawlessness, bad behavoir.
Being rejected by your neighbors often was a death sentence of sorts because nobody can be totally self sufficient
so people have more reasons to get along.
Another factor was the type of people and the realities of life on the
frontier. People were more able to defend themselves, many being former soldiers. Many a would be criminal ended
their days hung from a large tree or shot.
A good point that you seem to be trying to make further on is about
democracy. In the truest sense of the word, as a democratic society, we have no right to tell other nations what
type of government they can or should have. They should be left to freely choose whatever they wish for themselves.
Of course, there are all sorts of 'if', 'ands' and 'buts' involved in that concept. However, generally
speaking, we need to get our noses out of other nations' governments unless we wish to admit to our own
hypocrisy.
idesign
03-01-2008, 10:34 PM
Of
course, there are all sorts of 'if', 'ands' and 'buts' involved in that concept. However, generally speaking,
we need to get our noses out of other nations' governments unless we wish to admit to our own
hypocrisy.
You don't have to be perfect to give advice or, indeed, to intervene.
Alex157
03-02-2008, 05:19 AM
DrSmellThis,
I certainly can't
comment on Limonov, other than to say I'd like eventually to learn more.
Well, if this guy is
worth of any close attention :) His influence is close to zero. By they way, he had been living in the US for a long
time and I think that some his books are translated in English.
But a lot of what I hear you saying is that Kasparov is an
idealist without a practical method of helping Russians achieve democracy.
Yes, absolutely. I would say more – his real actions (as well as ones of
other our democrats) have nothing to do with his own ideals.
When he
writes articles for the Western media or talks something on our ‘democratic’ radio station Echo of Moscow he is a
democrat.
He would try to create a democratic party in Russia. But he
knows that nobody would deal with Limonov and he chooses Limonov since it is easier for him to have such an ally
(who gives immediately guys who are ready to go on the streets and protest against Putin) then to try to make some
real steps for creating such a party. If it is a really democratic party there will be internal elections there. And
where is a guarantee that Kasparov will be elected a leader? So it is much more convenient to agree with Limonov and
that crook Kasyanov that there will be not a party but just a public organization with three leaders who appointed
themselves.
The same
happened with another our ‘democrat’ Yavlinsky. He is much more clever and incomparably more popular in Russia than
Kasparov. But only position he can accept is to be a LEADER of the party. He knows that he is only proper man for
this post.
So he had been TALKING about democracy for 15 YEARS.
And he had been DOING all possible and impossible so that his own party
hadn’t been democratic. And the most interesting thing is that only among people with belief in democracy here still
there are some people (however less and less) who don’t understand that he is a liar and an accomplished crook. “He
says right things’ is theirs answer. They prefer to believe in democracy than to see obvious things.
Yes, Kasparov says ‘right
things’ too. But he neither wants nor is able to do anything toward these right things.
Look at his forum. Only
three persons answered something to my questions in English. I never got from Dpinrock (Deep Purple in Rock)
something sensible neither in Russian nor now in English (I had been to the forum a year ago). Jersy lives in
Poland.
And it reflects the situation. The forum is famous for rudeness
and ignorance of its moderators and participants. As soon as you write something bad about Kasparov you get a squall
of insults. Everything they don’t like moderators moved to special threads named ‘a pile of rubbish#1’, ‘a pile of
rubbish#2’ and so on. Nobody wants to talk with them and they are not able to talk to anybody who is not a fanatic
of Kasparov.
So there are
two great advantages of Kasparov in the West. He knows English well and Americans don’t know Russian :)
Greg,
It seems
that your politicians are learning the American style of politics. However, in our "advanced" politics, the
candidates will say as little as possible about what they really think. Limonov changes his position to be popular,
our candidates work 24 hours to find ways to be popular without taking a real position.
Oh, yes. I
think that it is a key point. Limonov has some popularity indeed (rather he had it), but it is very cheap one.
He gets some supporters (less and less after the next changing
of his position) but simultaneously loses much more every time.
I am sure that you indeed are not able to be in ‘advanced’ politics if you state what you think. You have to
know what your electorate thinks.
If you read the Kasparov forum
the discussion between me and Jerzy boils down to a question is Limonov’s flag a ‘Hitler’s’ one.
I argue that yes, and he argues, that no, it is not a Hitler’s
flag.
No doubt that both of us will think that we are right even
if we are arguing for year. It is OK as long as we are just citizens.
But I am sure that if Kasparov takes participation in our conversation (he wrote there some time ago) he would
prove me that he is absolutely right and the flag is not Hitler’s one.
That is, I would be able to do nothing but to say to him ‘Garry, you are right and I am wrong since I just
have no strengths to argue with you anymore. You won, my congratulations. Well, of course, I will never vote for
you, but I think that it won’t upset you much. You can always say that the elections were fixed and damned Putin
took my vote from you’.
I saw it everyday on the site of the
democratic party Yabloko. I even participated in trying to organize Internet meetings between representatives of the
party and electors (rather, I did it practically alone :) ). They are not able to do it neither in reality nor in
the Net. They have Yavlinksy who is able to come to TV and to criticize the authorities. But none of them is able to
talk to electors since all electors have wrong opinions of their own and our ‘democratic’ politicians are above
talking to people with wrong views. What sense in it? They find some idiots who are ready for free to hang around on
forums, appoint them administrators and moderators and they explain electors that they are fools with wrong views.
:) Of course, since they have a possibility to delete electors’ posts and ban them they usually win. I remember as
a regional leader of Yabloko after an idiotic insult in my address in his Live Journal suggested me to vote for them
after it :). Well, I wrote to the leadership of the party and got some excuses (only in private from a couple of
leaders of the party) but I did it just to see if it is possible to get excuses from them even in such a situation.
An average person just will never vote for them and ask all his/her friends not to do it. Say, the Democratic party
of the US will decide to have a forum and a representative of the party would call a woman there ‘this creature’
just for some critics of their candidates as a representative of Yabloko did at their site. Will it add many votes
to them?
And as a result a little problem is that Yabloko got
2% on the last elections and nobody attends their sites and forums anymore but they know that they are right.
Of course, a politician who wants to have support cannot behave
this way. Electors are right, not he…
Kasparov is an
amateur, he will find more moderate allies in the future, if he is as smart in politics as he is in chess.
Well, let me
translate what Sn (by the way, he lives in the US and could write in English since I told him that it is for
Americans but he doesn’t give a damn for anybody, of course) and Vladimir wrote in Russian on the Kasparovs’ forum.
Sn: Limonov had wrote even
in his early books that he was an admirer of Nazi’s leaders. But now he become wiser and maybe he even will admit
that it was not good for them to kill Jews in the Ukraine. (Limonov is Ukrainian, his real name is Sovenko).
Vladimir: if he were wiser he would disband his stinking party and have
shoved his flag in a water-closet pan long time ago.
Personally, I think that if Kasparov were able to be a real politician,
he would understand long time ago that after this friendship with Limonov his political career is over forever.
But I think that he just believe that Putin is bad. And since he fought
against him he is good.
Of course, he wants a democratic party in
Russian. But why we have to start with him? Democracy in Russia is much more important. When we have free TV, honest
elections and the like his organization will be democratic too. It is not his fault that now nobody but Limonov
doesn’t want to support such a good guy as he is.
If he were a
politician and could be able imagine what other people think, not he only, he would understand that people don’t
want abstract free TV and abstract honest elections. They don’t want to be killed, raped and robbed under nice
talking about democracy as in 90s. It seems that he is not able to understand it.
I wonder if this is because Russians have no experience, perhaps even no
idea about how the democratic process works?
Absolutely. Even the party officials of ‘democratic’ parties either have
not a clue about it or affect ignorance since it is not useful for them. Democracy means internal elections in their
parties and they want it as a wolf wants a ban on eating meat :)
I think that in Russia, Democracy will not be "born", but will grow. But
only if there is a leader to articulate and inspire such an idea to the people. DrSmellThis said this, it is a
movement of the people, with a leader who thinks about freedom more than self
interest.
Well, I think that
it is a matter of time. Some day we will have such leader.
Perhaps Putin
is a necessary transitional figure. Do you think Russia needs such a leader to establish order so that other
political parties have time to mature?
Why ‘needs’? :) We have already had a second one – Medvedev :) . By the
way, Putin makes some attempts to create a second party. But people don’t want it – they prefer to have one real
party, it more traditional for us :)
belgareth
03-02-2008, 06:00 AM
You
don't have to be perfect to give advice or, indeed, to intervene.
It's the intervening that bothers me.
We do not have the right to intervene in other country's affairs. We do not have the right to tell them or in any
way push them towards the type of government we want them to have. If we want to claim democracy we have to allow
other countries to choose the type of government they want without outside pressure. Our only role is to defend
their right to choose, nothing more.
tounge
03-02-2008, 12:48 PM
It's the
intervening that bothers me. We do not have the right to intervene in other country's affairs. We do not have the
right to tell them or in any way push them towards the type of government we want them to have. If we want to claim
democracy we have to allow other countries to choose the type of government they want without outside pressure. Our
only role is to defend their right to choose, nothing more.
Agree with what you have posted.
However there can really be no true democracy anywhere.
That is why the founding fathers of the US set up a
REPRESENITIVE REPUBLIC. With an electoral college. Very, very wise indeed.
A true democracy will eventually be
doomed to failure. In its simplest form a democracy could be two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
Won't last long. A democracy established in a place like Iraq, would eventually be taken over by a sect that was
fairly elected into power by a majority and then that sect changes law to whatever their whim will be. In essence
making it likely that they will never be voted out.
I don't think there has ever been a nation in the history
of the earth that has been governed by a true democracy, for more than a blip in history.
belgareth
03-02-2008, 01:56 PM
Good point. It doesn't change
the fact that we have no business interferring with their right to choose what government they have.
idesign
03-04-2008, 05:44 PM
But I think that he (Kasparov) just believe that Putin is bad.
And since he fought against him he is good.
The Democratic
Party in the US is doing the same thing. Their central message is change from Bush. They do not talk in detail
about what they believe. They will not say "We want to take more of your money in taxes and increase government
control over every life". They say instead "We want to give you "free" healthcare".
If he were a politician and could be able imagine what other
people think, not he only, he would understand that people don’t want abstract free TV and abstract honest
elections. They don’t want to be killed, raped and robbed under nice talking about democracy as in 90s. It
seems that he is not able to understand it.
Even the party officials
of ‘democratic’ parties either have not a clue about it or affect ignorance since it is not useful for
them. Democracy means internal elections in their parties and they want it as a wolf wants a ban on eating meat :)
Why ‘needs’? :)
We have already had a second one – Medvedev :) . By the way, Putin makes some attempts to create a second
party. But people don’t want it – they prefer to have one real party, it more traditional for us :)
Reading your words helps me understand better what I have been thinking. The weight
and inertia of your history may be impossible to alter. The Russian desire for a strong central leader is a
cultural enigma. With a leader such as Putin or (apparently) Medvedev, you have the security and safety of a Czar
with the beginnings of personal freedom and economic prosperity.
It raises another question: do you think the
"average" Russian cares about politics in a pure sense? Of course everyone thinks about politics if they can see it
effecting their life, but do you care about the structure of government or what its called?
DrSmellThis asked an
interesting question:
"Is it possible to instill public safety and basic human rights while constructing a
democracy in populations where lawlessness and corruption rule?"
I think Putin has answered "yes". While he is
not a real "democrat", he at least is moving away from certain vestiges of the past. What do you think?
BTW,
Colombia is an interesting study in security and democracy. What Uribe has done is nothing short of amazing. They
still have problems with the FARC, but have turned the country around. Medellin's mayor, Fajardo, has done a great
job in that city, former base of the now dead Escobar.
My next question would be: to what extent do Russians
desire a real democracy?
Congratulations on your election Alexey. It was a tense moment waiting for the results.
:)
idesign
03-04-2008, 06:13 PM
Agree with
what you have posted. However there can really be no true democracy anywhere.
That is why the founding fathers
of the US set up a REPRESENITIVE REPUBLIC. With an electoral college. Very, very wise indeed.
A true democracy
will eventually be doomed to failure. In its simplest form a democracy could be two wolves and a sheep voting on
what's for dinner. Won't last long. A democracy established in a place like Iraq, would eventually be taken over
by a sect that was fairly elected into power by a majority and then that sect changes law to whatever their whim
will be. In essence making it likely that they will never be voted out.
I don't think there has ever been a
nation in the history of the earth that has been governed by a true democracy, for more than a blip in
history.
Good post.
Look at California. Lots of ballot referenda. They were even allowed to vote on
teaching Ebonics. :frustrate
As a result they've voted themselves into an energy crisis.
tounge
03-04-2008, 11:10 PM
Good post.
Look at California. Lots of ballot referenda. They were even allowed to vote on teaching Ebonics. :frustrate
As a result they've voted themselves into an energy crisis.
California was ruined by the left
and liberalism. It was at one time a conservative and well run state. And of course it attracted many people because
of its prosperity, and then of course the libs got control and destroyed the state.
belgareth
03-05-2008, 05:42 AM
Yeah, I know. I lived there
through it. When I was growing up they had the best schools in the country, now they are beat out by almost every
state in education.
Last I heard they were going to outlaw back yard, charcoal barbecues because of air
pollution and you are pretty much stuck buying electric powered garden tools even though they have a power shortage
due to the refusal to build new power plants. They send so much fresh water south that many areas in the north are
becoming desert and they actually have to publish the salt content of tap water! Then the farmers who buy the fresh
water at government subsidized rates don't use it and are trying to resell it to the public at commercial rates.
I'm so glad I moved out of that state!
Alex157
03-06-2008, 09:17 AM
The Democratic Party in the US is doing the same thing. Their central message is
change from Bush. They do not talk in detail about what they believe. They will not say "We want to take more of
your money in taxes and increase government control over every life". They say instead "We want to give you "free"
healthcare".
Well,
our world is not perfect, neither the politicians are :) By the way, my sister lives in France and they really have
first-class medical care there. It is free and in some sense resembles the Soviet one but many times better.
Are you a Republican? :)
Reading your words
helps me understand better what I have been thinking. The weight and inertia of your history may be impossible to
alter.
I would say that it may be very long process.
The Russian desire for a strong central leader is a cultural
enigma. With a leader such as Putin or (apparently) Medvedev, you have the security and safety of a Czar with the
beginnings of personal freedom and economic prosperity.
And
the main thing is that we have not necessity to think ourselves :) By the way, our parliament is called Duma as
under the Czars. ‘Duma’ is made from a word ‘dumat’ - to think. Its task was to help the Czar to think. But it is
not a parliament, of course :)
It raises another question: do you think the "average" Russian
cares about politics in a pure sense? Of course everyone thinks about politics if they can see it effecting their
life, but do you care about the structure of government or what its called?
No, not in the
least degree. Our political ignorance is unlimited.
I think Putin has
answered "yes". While he is not a real "democrat", he at least is moving away from certain vestiges of the past.
What do you think?
I think that he understands well that there is not other way to rule
modern Russians but the way he does. Maybe some time later democracy will be possible. I agree with him.
BTW, Colombia is
an interesting study in security and democracy. What Uribe has done is nothing short of amazing. They still have
problems with the FARC, but have turned the country around. Medellin's mayor, Fajardo, has done a great job in that
city, former base of the now dead Escobar.
Well, many
countries had a strong leader as a transitional step.
My next question would be: to what extent do Russians desire a
real democracy?
Most of Russians don’t want democracy openly
and say that they prefer autocracy, as for others I think that the absolute majority of them haven’t even a notion
what democracy is. Again, I was communicating with our ‘democrats’ - it is something terrible.
Congratulations on your election Alexey. It was a tense moment
waiting for the results.
Thank you, Greg. :) It was a bit nervous indeed and till the
last moment we didn’t know who might win. But it ended well. They say that in some Northern districts appearance of
electors was even a bit more than 100% because bears came to support their candidate (‘medved’ means ‘bear’ in
Russian and ‘ev’ is equal ‘son’ in Robertson or Johnson).
idesign
03-09-2008, 08:10 PM
Well, our world is not perfect, neither the politicians are :)
By the way, my sister lives in France and they really have first-class medical care there. It is free and in some
sense resembles the Soviet one but many times better.
Free is
never free. I don't want to pay the tax of a Frenchman. :)
Are you a Republican? :)
I am a "medved". I only come out of the forest when there is
a candidate worthy of more than 100% of the vote. I have become weary of the forest.
Seriously, I do not identify with "Republican". I would say Conservative with Libertarian
underwear.
And the main thing is that we have not necessity to
think ourselves :)
America has become such a place, but for
different reasons.
Your government has imposed rule for centuries, and you have had the "luxury" of life
without the responsibility of political thought.
In America, our history is founded on fiercely independent
thinking and lively debate. However, the progression of socialist programs and ideals in this century has lead to a
rather large bureaucracy of what you might call "program perpetuators". This has led to our current electoral
system in which people try to avoid thinking about it at all costs. So you see, we are the same.
:)
By the way, our parliament is called Duma as
under the Czars. ‘Duma’ is made from a word ‘dumat’ - to think. Its task was to help the
Czar to think. But it is not a parliament, of course :)
Our
parliament is called "Congress", which means "collection" or "collective". As our system evolved over time, it has
also taken on the meaning "idiot", or "collection of idiots". Its task is to collect and spend money, regulate
bowel movements and approve of itself by salary increases
and periodic controlled elections. It is no longer a parliament of
course...
Our political ignorance is unlimited.
:rofl:As for us, our
unlimited ignorance is political.
In fact, the more stupid the idea, the better chance it has for political
popularity.
I think that he
understands well that there is not other way to rule modern Russians but the way he does. Maybe some time later
democracy will be possible. I agree with him.
many countries had a
strong leader as a transitional step.
Most of Russians don’t
want democracy openly and say that they prefer autocracy, as for others I think that the absolute majority of them
haven’t even a notion what democracy is. Again, I was communicating with our ‘democrats’ - it is
something terrible.
Its very interesting to
read your comments Alexey. I'm beginning to understand the situation in your country, its been a long time since I
studied Russia.
Like you say, Putin, and his way of governing, is a natural progression in your development. I
hope Medvedev takes you just a little further.
Let me say, for all of us, we are very fortunate to have you as a
member of this forum. Thanks for your interesting conversation.
They say
that in some Northern districts appearance of electors was even a bit more than 100% because bears came to support
their candidate
We have a similar phenomena in our elections. Sometimes dead people and family
pets vote for their favorite candidate. :)
idesign
03-12-2008, 06:54 PM
Alexey, how did you find this
forum? Do you use pheromones? Are you here for the very enlightening political discourse? :) I'm just
curious.
Allow me a question. If you could move to America and live here as a citizen, would you do it? Why?
What would you expect the differences to be?
Alex157
03-13-2008, 11:31 AM
Greg, I was a bit busy (we are formalizing our divorce with Yabloko party :) ) and
am going to answer your previous post at the weekend.
Alexey, how did you find this forum?
Oh, a great place. Really. I hope that I’ll stay here for long.
Do
you use pheromones?
I don’t even know what it is :)
Are you here for the very enlightening political
discourse? I'm
just curious.
Actually, I was looking for a forum for practicing my English.
But it seems that I can find here more.
Allow me a question. If you could move to America and
live here as a citizen, would you do it? Why? What would you expect the differences to be?
Well, it is a difficult question. To
be frank, I would prefer to stay in Europe. I would like to live in Czech republic or something like this. That is,
I would prefer to live in Russia, but sometimes I begin to think that it is impossible to live here.
But I would love to have an American wife for learning English :)
DrSmellThis
03-13-2008, 08:26 PM
Alexey,
how did you find this forum? Do you use pheromones? Are you here for the very enlightening political discourse? :)
I'm just curious.
Allow me a question. If you could move to America and live here as a citizen, would you do
it? Why? What would you expect the differences to be?I'm fond of this post. These are the kinds of
questions we should be asking, even if they might seem a bit naive or ethnocentric.
In my experience, people
from abroad generally have a very nuanced view of America. It's not just a black and white situation of either
"haters" (from terrible places, like FRANCE ;)) who buy into propaganda; versus "poor lost souls" and "tired,
huddled masses" who yearn for the peace, freedoms and comforts of our "superior" lifestyle. Believing this really
would be naive and ethnocentric.
For every five Cuban soccer players seeking asylum, there are countless others
who have very good reasons for preferring other places.
What attracts me most to the US is that I am comfortable
and familiar with the culture, and my family and friends are here. As it turns out, I think I'd feel isolated
elsewhere. Otherwise, I'd look at about fifteen other countries for various reasons.
Mtnjim
03-14-2008, 12:39 PM
...Otherwise, I'd look at about fifteen other countries for various
reasons.
Given a choice, Spain or France for me. I liked those places when I lived there before.
belgareth
03-14-2008, 01:24 PM
Otherwise, I'd look at about fifteen other countries for various
reasons.
Retirement isn't all that far off for me. Maybe a place with a nice sandy white beach where I can
bring in a sailboat? Someplace with low taxes and a low cost of living and blue water close by...
idesign
03-14-2008, 05:49 PM
Greg, I was a bit busy (we are formalizing our divorce with Yabloko
party :) ) and am going to answer your previous post at the weekend.
No
problem Alexey. Would you care to tell us more about your activities? It would be interesting to hear about. I am
not KGB (can't remember the new name), so you can speak freely. ;)
Oh, a great place. Really. I hope that I’ll stay
here for long.
Your English is too good! My question
"how did you find this forum" can be read two ways, and you answered the more colloquial (and difficult for
foreigners) meaning of the phrase. I could alternatively ask "how did you discover this forum"?
I don’t even know what it is :)
Pheromones are the main point of this forum. You
might want to read other areas of the forum and find out about the kind of people you're talking to. :lol:
Well, it is a difficult question. To be frank, I
would prefer to stay in Europe. I would like to live in Czech republic or something like this. That is, I would
prefer to live in Russia, but sometimes I begin to think that it is impossible to live here.
But I would love to have an American wife for learning English :)
Its difficult for
many (maybe most) Americans to understand how easy it is to live here relative to other countries. We complain and
criticize a lot, for some good reasons, but not all of them are good.
Our system is a 200 year old experiment,
and today has no resemblance to its beginning. Honestly, I think we do not have the capacity to change the
direction. However, there is nothing preventing me from living any life I choose and am able to make. Its becoming
more difficult though.
I am curious about your reason for saying "sometimes I begin to think it is impossible to
live here (Russia)". Is it for reasons relating to daily life? Lack of opportunity?
If you answer with a very
long reply you will have good English practice, and we will have the benefit of very interesting reading. :) When
your divorce is complete, of course.
An American wife will teach you much more than English. :) But I am not
complaining, quite the opposite.
idesign
03-14-2008, 06:38 PM
I'm
fond of this post. These are the kinds of questions we should be asking, even if they might seem a bit naive or
ethnocentric.
In my experience, people from abroad generally have a very nuanced view of America. It's not just
a black and white situation of either "haters" (from terrible places, like FRANCE ;)) who buy into propaganda;
versus "poor lost souls" and "tired, huddled masses" who yearn for the peace, freedoms and comforts of our
"superior" lifestyle. Believing this really would be naive and ethnocentric.
For every five Cuban soccer players
seeking asylum, there are countless others who have very good reasons for preferring other places.
What attracts
me most to the US is that I am comfortable and familiar with the culture, and my family and friends are here. As it
turns out, I think I'd feel isolated elsewhere. Otherwise, I'd look at about fifteen other countries for various
reasons.
I like naive, to a point. Did you ever read or see "Being There"? The character Chance was
ultimately naive, and had a simplicity in his approach to life and people that was completely honest, and likable.
Of course that's an extreme.
Ethnocentricity is unfortunate, like, ummmm, lack of education.
I think you're
right about the world's view of America. I think if you eliminate political and geographic boundaries, and just
think of "people" around the world, the opinions about the US will pretty much line up with opinions among
Americans. That's to say, some will be hyper-critical, and some blindly adoring, with most in the middle
somewhere.
I don't think the world hates the US, nor do I think we need to worry about "restoring America's
respect", as some politicians are fond of saying.
Bel, Doc and Jim, I'm with you guys. I'm thinking of a place
where the mountains are less than an hour from the beach. I think I'd have to come back for lengthy periods
though.
DrSmellThis
03-14-2008, 07:11 PM
Idesign, Imeant it all as a
compliment. "Seeming" naive or ethnocentric is different from being that. If I ask someone their opinion of my
behavior to learn something about myself, it might seem self-centered on the surface. But it's not really. And what
seems naive can really be open minded. :)
Portland, Oregon is surrounded by huge mountains, ocean, rainforest,
and desert, all within a 90 minute drive or less; in addition to being a great city, in terms of lifestyle, music,
and culture. There is nowhere in the world quite like it, judging from the many comments of international travelers
I've heard over the years. And it's right here in the good ole US of freakin A. :) There's ethnocentric for ya'.
On the other hand, if you hate rain you are SOL here.
idesign
03-14-2008, 08:37 PM
Idesign, Imeant it all as a compliment. "Seeming" naive or ethnocentric is different from
being that. If I ask someone their opinion of my behavior to learn something about myself, it might seem
self-centered on the surface. But it's not really. And what seems naive can really be open minded. :)
Portland,
Oregon is surrounded by huge mountains, ocean, rainforest, and desert, all within a 90 minute drive or less; in
addition to being a great city, in terms of lifestyle, music, and culture. There is nowhere in the world quite like
it, judging from the many comments of international travelers I've heard over the years. And it's right here in
the good ole US of freakin A. :) There's ethnocentric for ya'. On the other hand, if you hate rain you are SOL
here.
I used to sign my posts with my name, Greg, but fell out of the habit. I thought of having Bruce
change my forum name but I guess its too late now. Anyway, call me Greg.
No worries Doc, I knew what you were
getting at. This writing/reading thing is like soooo overrated. :) Good thing we have emoticons to help out along
the way.
Perhaps we should establish a blanket agreement like Bel and I had in a previous thread. Something
like "I promise to not be a jerk". :lovestruc
I spent 2 weeks in and around Port Orchard, WA for a job and loved
it, except the rain. Not much culture there either, but we took the ferry to Seattle and had a great time. Drove
up to Port Angeles and the Olympic Range. Amazing place. Sequim is quite the lavender growing area (in a weird
rain shadow), and every shop was full of it, very cool.
There's too much to love about our country to not be
ethnocentric to the point of loving it above others. I think that must be a pretty universal sentiment, even for
people who live in difficult places.
DrSmellThis
03-15-2008, 10:34 AM
Glad you had a chance to enjoy
the Pacific Northwest.
Lavender, rock rose (labdanum), and rosemary grow all over the place here, as do roses
and lots of evergreens. You can pretty much walk around with some grain alcohol and pick yourself an aftershave for
free, if you know when to pick stuff. Plus, every neighborhood is filled with fragrant gardens.
Sorry to
digress, but I've been on an "I love Portland" kick lately.
idesign
03-16-2008, 02:34 PM
Digress all you like, I enjoy
reading it. Makes me wish I lived in a place I was passionate about. Don't get me wrong, its a nice place, if
you're into surfing or sportfishing. I'm not into either, so I get my fix of interesting things by traveling
around the region, which is FULL of very cool places. Lots of history along the east coast, which is nice.
As
an aside Doc... forgive me if I'm not all that adept at responding appropriately sometimes. I'm pretty new to the
whole Forum format and I forget that people can't hear my voice or see my expressions. I'm also a little slow on
the uptake at times. :think:
idesign
03-20-2008, 07:57 PM
Alexey, we miss your posts here.
I hope you are well. Мы надеемся
видеть вас снова
скоро друг.
idesign
03-27-2008, 07:04 PM
Alexey, if you're still
there...
One of our presidential candidates stated that Russia should not be a part of the G8 (economic Group of
8) because of Russia's departure from Democracy. What do you think of this? He advocates allowing India and
Brazil into the group.
Alex157
04-08-2008, 05:50 AM
Alexey, we miss
your posts here. I hope you are well. Ìû ÃÃäååìñÿ âèäåòü âÃñ ñÃîâà ñêîðî
äðóã.
Sorry for my absence, I was
a bit busy with my Live Journal :). They say that top bloggers get 4-5 thousands a month and the idea grasped me :)
Plus, for some reasons I don’t get any notifications about new posts on
the forum.
Alexey, if you're still there...
One of our presidential
candidates stated that Russia should not be a part of the G8 (economic Group of 8) because of Russia's departure
from Democracy. What do you think of this? He advocates allowing India and Brazil into the group.
Greg, it was not clear for me what we are doing in G8 at all in the
first place. I don’t know what Russia produces – it is definitely not cars, electronics or clothes, maybe tanks or
missiles?
I think that it was a political step and, of course, if we are
booted out it would be an offence.
If the West wants some democracy here
it should negotiate with the Kremlin. It is possible if some money are donated. I mean organization of the second
party and the like.
idesign
04-14-2008, 05:32 PM
I agree Alex. Russia should be
kept as a G8 partner. One would hope that pressure could be placed on Russia within that forum. These days, I have
less hope for that.
I suppose the most important work to be done in Russia is organizing and educating people
about Democratic ideals. Is that what you're doing in your blog? Will it make a difference?
DrSmellThis
04-14-2008, 11:22 PM
I agree
Alex. Russia should be kept as a G8 partner. One would hope that pressure could be placed on Russia within that
forum. These days, I have less hope for that.
I suppose the most important work to be done in Russia is
organizing and educating people about Democratic ideals. Is that what you're doing in your blog? Will it make a
difference?What I hear him saying is that it's not so much the ideals themselves, the shining cities on the
hill, that are hard to grasp; but rather the landscape -- practical, problematic realities of where the society is,
with respect to distance and terrain, in achieving anything like those ideals.
Even here, where we like to think
it all happened more or less "organically" (for most white people, and people with the biggest guns, anyway) the
ugliness of the landscape we have crossed and are crossing strains the imaginiation at times.
Rather, the lions
share of the former responsibility, to make clear the ideals and benefits of liberty and democracy; remains ours.
And it is not a matter of our words, to put it mildly. What good is it for them to learn more, when we have so much
to learn before we can teach anybody much more than a confusing, and at times nonsensical story?
There are
certainly those who think we have done a great job of "spreading democracy", and consequently its ideals. But that
belief happens most everywhere to evoke fiery and divisive debate more than any kind of understanding.
If we
ever achieve liberty and democracy here, for more than a minority, and demonstrate some integrity with that; there
will be no problem anywhere in the world finding a majority of people to buy into it. It is now a very small world
with a substantial collective consciousness. Most people want desparately to believe in ideals like these, on one
level; but they have their good reasons for not doing so.
A movie that brought some of this to light was
"Control Room", a documentary about individuals working for Al Jazeera in Iraq, individuals who would have
absolutely loved to spend their days dreaming about democracy, all other things being equal. I once reviewed it
here.
Alex157
04-15-2008, 12:39 AM
I agree Alex. Russia should be kept as a G8 partner. One would hope that
pressure could be placed on Russia within that forum. These days, I have less hope for that.
So do you think, Greg, that Russia is going to be booted out from G8?
I suppose the
most important work to be done in Russia is organizing and educating people about Democratic ideals. Is that what
you're doing in your blog? Will it make a difference?
Well, again, I think that something is changed when the generation is
changed.
I opened a poll not long ago about who is to blame most for
the war in Yugoslavia. And on a democratic forum most people tipped the box ‘USA’ :)
It was a jocular song here with stanzas like this ‘if there is no
water in the house, the Jews have drank it’ and the like.
It is
senseless to talk to such people.
My blog is photo one.
http://bayukov.livejournal.com/ (http://bayukov.livejournal.com/)
I plan to add some politics but just for attracting people.
However, we are constructing a site and there is going to be a section
in English.
I’ll tell you about it in details when it is ready.
idesign
04-15-2008, 06:03 PM
So do you think, Greg, that Russia is going to be booted out
from G8?
Well, McCain was the one who mentioned it. If he's
elected I'm not sure that he'll have a consensus. A lot could depend on Medvedev too. In the final analysis,
Russia has no place among the G7. Perhaps it would be an offense to Russia, but perhaps that is what is needed to
keep pressure on the Kremlin. I don't need to remind you, it was economics which broke the back of the Soviets.
Putin is no stranger to pressure, and Medvedev will learn quickly. The pressure of non-acceptance is good healthy
medicine for an autocrat.
Having said that, membership in the G8 is meaningless for Russia until they have an
economy which actually matters to the world economy. That, and democracy, will take some time, as you've said.
Well, again, I think that something is changed when the generation is changed.
I opened a poll not long ago about who is to blame most for the war in
Yugoslavia. And on a democratic forum most people tipped the box ‘USA’ :)
It was a jocular song here with stanzas like this ‘if there is
no water in the house, the Jews have drank it’ and the like.
It
is senseless to talk to such people.
My blog is photo one.
http://bayukov.livejournal.com/ (http://bayukov.livejournal.com/)
I plan to add some politics but just for attracting people.
However, we are constructing a site and there is going to be a section in English.
I’ll tell you about it in details when it is ready.
I understand your sentiments with Russian political sophistication. :) I was mostly
wondering about the group you are working in and what kind of things you are doing.
I'm curious, what kind of
politics/government are taught in the gymnazia? What is the next generation being taught?
Even as I write this,
I just saw on TV that Putin embraced the Peoples' Party, and spoke of "consolidating power". Kasparov said the
power move was "byzantine". I have to agree, in a purely intellectual way.
However, I understand and agree with
your assessment of Russia's political necessity of having an autocratic leader. Personal security and economic
stability require it, like you say.
It seems to me that Russians are naive, and wonderfully untainted by
politics. This is both a compliment and a criticism. Those who care about politics are as voices crying in the
wilderness. The rest are married to their culture, perhaps not happily at times, but free of an added burden.
I
like your photo blog a lot Alexey. Is anyone allowed to post photos? I also enjoyed your "How I Participated in
the Russian Elections".
My favorite was your marriage commentary, and the bride in this picture:
:)
http://i011.radikal.ru/0803/25/fea70ee41380.jpg
Alex157
04-17-2008, 06:40 AM
I understand your sentiments with Russian political sophistication.
I was mostly wondering about the
group you are working in and what kind of things you are doing.
It was several people from one of our parties Yabloko (apple). The
most active one was a local leader of the youth organization under this party.
Our last job was trying to organize answers of party candidates in their
blogs. We asked candidates and just party members to open treads where people could ask them questions during
campaign. The TV channels were virtually closed for them. However, as a rule they don’t want to answer anything.
I'm curious, what
kind of politics/government are taught in the gymnazia? What is the next generation being taught?
Well, the next generation just are not taught that grandpa
Lenin was the most human man and that communism is inevitable. I hope that the generation after it will be taught
something else. Actually, it is a continuous fight between different ministers what should be taught in
schools…
I think that some basis of democracy are taught now.
Even as I write this, I just saw on TV that Putin embraced the
Peoples' Party, and spoke of "consolidating power".
You mean ‘United Russia’, Greg? Putin now is a member of it and is going
to be elected its leader.
Kasparov said the power move was "byzantine". I have to agree, in
a purely intellectual way.
Yes, but with such politicians as
Kasparov there are no other choice :)
However, I understand and
agree with your assessment of Russia's political necessity of having an autocratic leader. Personal security and
economic stability require it, like you say.
In Russia yes.
Of course, if there is a middle class it is better to have democracy.
It seems to me that Russians are naive, and wonderfully
untainted by politics. This is both a compliment and a criticism. Those who care about politics are as voices crying
in the wilderness. The rest are married to their culture, perhaps not happily at times, but free of an added burden.
Yes, Russians are very naive. It is discussed why it is seen
if a person is Russian :). I remember an American movie and there was a moment when several tens of Soviet military
went somewhere. One of actors was Russian and it was clearly seen tens Americans in Russian uniform and one Russian
among them :) I don’t know what it is. Maybe some childishness in a face too.
I like your photo blog a lot Alexey.
Oh, thank you.
Is anyone allowed to
post photos?
My
journal is run by the Russian laws only :) They don’t forbid posting photos. :) However, technically it is possible
to post photos on the main page by me only. Anybody else can post anything he/she wants in comments. Do you have
something? :)
My
favorite was your marriage commentary, and the bride in this picture:
Yes, I like her too :)
idesign
08-27-2008, 08:11 PM
Alexey, its been a long time
since we spoke, I hope you are still there among us, and doing well. :)
There is a lot of water which has flowed
under our bridges.
We have an election process and you have Georgia. From my perspective they are similar. One
is attempting an invasion on another for political reasons.
I will be very interested to hear about what you
think of Putin's (Medvedev's) adventure into the Caucasus. Its interesting that the commentary made here in the
US always refers to Putin's bold move, and not Medvedev.
Is the spirit of Ivan IV alive in Putin? He is
flexing muscles and looking like Czar. We in the west are mostly lost concerning Russia, but I know something about
your history. Russia is like a woman for me: I love you, and vodka helps me forget the politics. :)
Alex157
08-28-2008, 11:21 AM
Greg hi :)
yes, I am here and I
am OK :)
As for Georgia I think that Saakashvili is complete scum... However, the position of Russia is really
funny. We granted citizenship all population of South Ossetia there and call ourselves peacekeepers....
Anyway the
problem is that the West started it with recognition of Kosovo, I believe... What do you think of it?
and yes,
Putin is strong and formidable :)
idesign
08-29-2008, 08:19 PM
Glad to hear that you are alive
and well Alexey!
Hmmm, Kosovo. It was a big problem for Clinton and NATO. We tried to help a Muslim population
and had no understanding of the complex history of the Balkans. When we recognized Kosovo we tried to do the right
thing and, as it happened, did nothing to solve a problem. I don't know if you can blame the West, or anyone. I
also don't know if the problem in the Balkans can be solved. The Ottomans caused the problem and they are no
longer here to help us. :) Their ancestors are unwilling to negotiate.
I'm curious about how you think Georgia
relates to that situation. Do you think Russia's interest might be geographical and oil related? Georgia is an
important link to the Black Sea, and is between there and Baku.
What do you think of the defense missile system
in Poland?
I visited your website and it has grown a lot! Many beautiful images! A nice place to visit. I was
thinking about posting some pictures there, but your artists are much better than what I do.
Oh, why do you think
Saakashivili is scum?
Alex157
08-30-2008, 06:52 AM
Glad to hear that you are alive and well
Alexey!
Hmmm, Kosovo. It was a big problem for Clinton and NATO. We
tried to help a Muslim population and had no understanding of the complex history of the Balkans. When we recognized
Kosovo we tried to do the right thing and, as it happened, did nothing to solve a problem. I don't know if you can
blame the West, or anyone. I also don't know if the problem in the Balkans can be solved.
No, not helping Muslims was a problem. My opinion is not
typical for Russians but I think that NATO had no choice but interfere there.
I was saying
about recognition of Kosovo. It was a direct violation of European principle of inviolability of frontiers in
Europe. It was signed by all European countries and by the US too. The US is not a European country : ) but others
have no excuse.
By the way, such independence violates logic too. If Kosovo has a right to be
independent from Serbia, any district of Kosovo where there are Serbian majority should have such a right also.
I'm curious about how you think Georgia
relates to that situation. Do you think Russia's interest might be geographical and oil related? Georgia is an
important link to the Black Sea, and is between there and
Baku.
Well, first of all both nations –
Abkazs and Ossetins want to be with Russia, not Georgia, it is a fact. So it is not easy for Russia to be
indifferent since all Caucasian nations of Russia are against Georgia too and support Abkazia and South Ossetia. As
NATO didn’t want to see how Albanians were killed in Kosovo we don’t want to see how Georgians kill Abkazs and
Ossetins.
Of course, the Kremlin has interests of its own there, but it has a great pretext
for operating there.
Now it is clear that both the West and the Kremlin have extremely
hypocritical positions. Both accuse each other of doing what the are doing themselves.
It is
a top of hypocrisy to shout about violation of international laws in Kosovo and then to do the same in Georgia. The
West has not any moral rights to accuse Russia after recognition of Kosovo too. It was the West who started it.
What do you think of the defense missile
system in Poland?
As
for me I think nothing, but I am sure that if Russia begins to built military bases in Cuba the US wouldn’t be too
happy too.
Glad to hear that you are alive and well
Alexey!
I visited your website and it has grown a lot! Many beautiful
images! A nice place to visit. I was thinking about posting some pictures there, but your artists are much better
than what I do.
Greg, post something and we compare : )
Oh, why do you
think Saakashivili is scum?
I saw the translations from the UN by the CNN. Of course, Georgian representatives have a good command of
English and in comparison with our old Soviet apparatchik they look much better. Buy they lie as Stalin’s guys lied
60 years ago in the UN.
It was Saakasvili’s regime who started the
war. And they started it cowardly at the first day of Olympics. Hundreds of civilians died for nothing since the
Kremlin was just glad to this provocation and it was obvious that Russia would draw in its army.
By the way, Saakashvili is a mental person too. It is strange that the
West cannot see it.
Mtnjim
09-02-2008, 12:05 PM
Well, first of all both nations – Abkazs and Ossetins want to be with Russia,
not Georgia, it is a fact.
That may well have to do
with before the Soviet days, Georga engaged in "ethnic cleansing" in Ossetia. They hated each other.
idesign
09-02-2008, 06:36 PM
No, not helping Muslims was a problem. My opinion is not typical for
Russians but I think that NATO had no choice but interfere there.
I was saying about
recognition of Kosovo. It was a direct violation of European principle of inviolability of frontiers in Europe. It
was signed by all European countries and by the US too. The US is not a European country : ) but others have no
excuse.
By the way, such independence violates logic too. If Kosovo has a right to be
independent from Serbia, any district of Kosovo where there are Serbian majority should have such a right
also.
Yes, I understand, but it is difficult to understand why a major ethnic
population within a region cannot have their political freedom when political boundaries have historically been
drawn randomly and without populations in mind. In Eastern Europe it is most difficult, especially in the Balkans
(Yugoslavia and Albania).
If Europe thinks its boundaries to be inviolable, then they need only think back to
their history when the Western nations continuously shifted alliances against various Eastern powers and schemed to
manipulate much of Eastern Europe (post-Ottoman) through those alliances. There was scarcely any time for E.Europe
to establish modern States before the Soviets put an end to that. Modern Europe is only a little more
enlightened, and they are concerned more with economic unity than ethnic freedoms.
Its my thinking that W.Europe
is not that comfortable being part of NATO as a useful force to begin with.
Arbitrary boundaries will
eventually be broken, and nowhere was it more volatile than the Balkans. But, there is little risk that smaller
populations will have the resources to break from the boundaries recently
established.
Well, first of all both nations – Abkazs and Ossetins
want to be with Russia, not Georgia, it is a fact. So it is not easy for Russia to be indifferent since all
Caucasian nations of Russia are against Georgia too and support Abkazia and South Ossetia. As NATO didn’t want
to see how Albanians were killed in Kosovo we don’t want to see how Georgians kill Abkazs and Ossetins.
Of course, the Kremlin has interests of its own there, but it has a great pretext for
operating there.
Now it is clear that both the West and the Kremlin have extremely
hypocritical positions. Both accuse each other of doing what the are doing themselves.
It is
a top of hypocrisy to shout about violation of international laws in Kosovo and then to do the same in Georgia. The
West has not any moral rights to accuse Russia after recognition of Kosovo too. It was the West who started it.
What you say makes sense, if you consider "self-determination" to be a goal for a modern
political philosophy. MtnJim's point is well taken, and your explanation is enlightening. In this way of looking
at Ossetia is Russia all that hypocritical? Of course you must discount other reasons.
Int'l politics and law
are constantly shifting, and have always been so. Today's hypocrite is yesterday's hero. The US knows this
because they have been caught in their own devices many times, but the game must be played with today's cards.
That's what makes yesterday's cards so troublesome.
As
for me I think nothing, but I am sure that if Russia begins to built military bases in Cuba the US wouldn’t be
too happy too.
Ah, do you interpret such actions through the lens of a Soviet camera? Or
is the camera a modern Russian one? They are very different. Is it so hard to understand "manoeuvres
defensif"?
I saw the translations from the UN by the CNN. Of
course, Georgian representatives have a good command of English and in comparison with our old Soviet apparatchik
they look much better. Buy they lie as Stalin’s guys lied 60 years ago in the UN.
It was Saakasvili’s regime who started the war. And they started
it cowardly at the first day of Olympics. Hundreds of civilians died for nothing since the Kremlin was just glad to
this provocation and it was obvious that Russia would draw in its army.
By the way, Saakashvili is a mental person too. It is strange that the West cannot see it.
Yes, after some reading I think you are right.
As another thought, what do you think
of the UN?
As for my pictures, they are only good "snapshots", and not artistically rendered. I will gather some
and send them to you. :)
Nice to see you again!
Alex157
09-13-2008, 10:37 AM
Sorry, guys, for some reason I
didn't get a notification again. I'll answer soon.
By the way, Greg, is there a topic about cinema at the
forum?
idesign
09-14-2008, 08:01 PM
No problem Alexey, we're always
here. :) And I saw a shortcoming in my previous reply, but let's continue and I'll correct it.
There is a
thread about Good Movies Lately (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10170) here, and you
can post anything you like. If you want to create a different discussion you can start a new thread. As a member
you can create a thread on any topic. Just put it in Open Discussion. Let me know if you need any help. What do
you have on your mind besides politics and great photography?
Alex157
09-20-2008, 05:33 AM
It is me again :)
If Europe thinks its boundaries to be
inviolable
Well,
actually the US signed this treaty too :)
Modern Europe is only a little more enlightened, and they are
concerned more with economic unity than ethnic freedoms.
I
think that the US virtually have not such problems since the significant part of the native population died out (and
many were killed by European invaders) and now constitutes a very small percentage of total population.
As far as I know Europe does much for ethnic cultural freedoms but this
problem has not any solution from my point of view. If every nation has to have a state of its own – what should be
borders? If not, how I can have the same rights as the ‘title’ nation if I want to speak my ethnic language?
What you say makes
sense, if you consider "self-determination" to be a goal for a modern political philosophy.
No, I haven’t any
strict views of my own on the subject. I just think that if a territory has a right to separate, any part of it has
to have the same right. That’s only one thing I am saying. But it is impossible.
--As for me I think nothing, but I am sure that if Russia begins to built
military bases in Cuba the US wouldn’t be too happy too.
--Ah, do
you interpret such actions through the lens of a Soviet camera? Or is the camera a modern Russian one? They are very
different. Is it so hard to understand "manoeuvres
defensif"?
I just think that nobody cannot be unbiased. Say, Mexicans will elect
somebody like Saakashvili and a civil war among different ethnic groups will begin (God forbid, of course).
I think that it would be difficult for the US not to interfere at all if
it happens at the US’s borders.
As another thought, what do
you think of the UN?
Nothing :) Rather, it is a bit better than nothing but the UN is
incapable to solve serious problems, I think.
As for my
pictures, they are only good "snapshots", and not artistically rendered. I will gather some and send them to you.
Great, I am waiting
for it : )
Alex157
09-20-2008, 05:39 AM
There is a thread about
Good Movies Lately (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10170)
here
Thanks a lot,
Greg. I am going to read it and post my questions :)
Let me know if you need any
help
No, no,
everything is OK :) Thank you!
What do you have on
your mind besides politics and great photography?
Money :) My main concern is how to get money from the Russian
Internet : ))
idesign
09-22-2008, 05:18 PM
If every nation has to have a state of its own – what
should be borders? If not, how I can have the same rights as the ‘title’ nation if I want to speak my
ethnic language?
I understand and partially agree. The only problem is with old borders
drawn arbitrarily, without respect to major cultural/religious populations, as in the former Yugoslavia and
Albania. After the Soviet demise such things were inevitable I think. And then there was Milosevic, another small
problem. :)
No, I haven’t any strict views of my own
on the subject. I just think that if a territory has a right to separate, any part of it has to have the same right.
That’s only one thing I am saying. But it is impossible.
Self determinism is pretty
important as a foundation for a Democracy. But you are absolutely right about small indigenous groups. They will
not have the power to realize any independence of course.
I
just think that nobody cannot be unbiased. Say, Mexicans will elect somebody like Saakashvili and a civil war among
different ethnic groups will begin (God forbid, of course).
I think that
it would be difficult for the US not to interfere at all if it happens at the US’s borders.
Interesting analogy Alexey, especially in the light of your
comment about borders. Of course the US would have an interest in the outcome. That raises a question I have.
What is the international status of South Ossetia?
As you recognized, there is a cultural
difference between the north and south. If either area have an allegiance to Georgia or Russia then their political
sponsor has an obligation: Georgia in the south and Russian in the north. But I'm not sure of the dynamics of
these areas among their people, if you exclude powerful armies.
Going back to the subject of this thread
(remember that?) :) the west is becoming a little nervous of Putin for other reasons as well. We will
see.
Nothing :)
Rather, it is a bit better than nothing but the UN is incapable to solve serious problems, I think.
And are corrupt and political.
Alex157
09-24-2008, 01:03 PM
I understand and partially agree. The only problem is with
old borders drawn arbitrarily, without respect to major cultural/religious populations, as in the former
Yugoslavia and Albania.
Major on minor?
After the Soviet
demise such things were inevitable I think.
Well, the same
problems are in Catalonia or the Country of Basques, for example.
And then there was
Milosevic, another small problem.
Yes, sure, but now there are another guys there. :)
Interesting analogy Alexey, especially in the light of your
comment about borders. Of course the US would have an interest in the outcome. That raises a question I have. What
is the international status of South Ossetia?
The same as of
Kosovo : ) It is a part of Georgia, of course.
As you
recognized, there is a cultural difference between the north and south.
Well, I don’t think
so. The only difference, I believe, is that there were many ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia, of course. As well as
there were quite enough Serbs in Kosovo. Of course, the difference is that some Serbs remain in Kosovo, but I think
that all Georgians were banished from South Ossetia and Abkhazia…
If either area have an allegiance to Georgia or Russia then their
political sponsor has an obligation: Georgia in the south and Russian in the north.
I think that the
main problem is that Russia is more tolerant to ethnic minorities than Georgia. Actually even as an Empire ethnic
minorities in Russia were much more equal to the main nation that in the Western Empires. Maybe because Russians
were mainly serf slaves so there were no difference for Czars :
)
Georgians want to make everybody Georgians and it is not OK with Abkazs
and Ossetins.
Going back to the subject of this thread (remember that?)
the west is becoming a little
nervous of Putin for other reasons as well. We will
see.
Yes, all
troubles at the Caucasus are only coming : ))
And are corrupt and political.
Well, Greg, what is not corrupt and political in the modern
world? : )
idesign
11-05-2008, 06:31 PM
Hi Alex,
After finally getting
around to doing some more reading about Georgia, I have to agree with you. Saakashvili made a big mistake, and his
country paid a price. The Russian response may have been a little heavy-handed, but Putin is the kind of person who
likes to prove his point.
The discussion about Kosovo, Basques, ethnic sovereignty and such can be discussed
endlessly, and is probably one of the more interesting discussions available. Ethnic and religious tensions that
history ignored - or suppressed under a dictatorship - later become revolutions if they can, genocides if they're
very unlucky, or victims of re-suppression if they're only moderately unlucky. This ignores political tensions
which suddenly appear in the vacuum of a failed imperial tyranny such as the Soviets.
Considering all that, the
Balkans were a very old soup that boiled over after its last restraint was removed. It was going to happen, and the
Western powers had to make a choice. Recognizing Kosovo was not so much a matter of violating borders, but of
recognizing a new political landscape that they did not choose, but had to accept.
In sheer pragmatic terms, a
population must have the means to revolt in terms of capability, then it must have legitimacy in its political
sphere. These two rules prohibit many populations from breaking whatever "chains" they have, or perceive to
have.
On another note, I see that Putin, ooops, Medvedev wants to place missiles near Poland. Medvedev said that
he is counting on our new President to make "conciliatory gestures". What do you think of this? What do you think
of our new President?
Alex157
11-11-2008, 02:40 PM
Greg hi,
After finally getting around to doing some more reading about Georgia, I have to agree
with you. Saakashvili made a big mistake, and his country paid a price.
Well, I remember a line from ‘Jackie Brown’. - Can you trust Melony? –
You can trust that Melony will be Melony.
Or something like this.
Saakashvili is Saakashvili and I think that it is a great mistake of the US government that it supports such guys.
Again, Hitler was elected democratically too.
On another note, I see that Putin,
ooops, Medvedev wants to place missiles near Poland. Medvedev said that he is counting on our new President to make
"conciliatory gestures". What do you think of this?
Nothing : ) As far as I know we have not military units to the west of
Moscow at all and all this is just a show. A good half of Russians are very anti-Western and I think that the
Kremlin guys just try to satisfy them.
What do you think of our new
President?
Well, I am glad that after Bush America chose something else :) For me it shows that
democracy works.
Much more a bit later – we are making our site and my
brains don’t work completely : )
What do YOU think of new President?
:)
Mtnjim
11-12-2008, 11:04 AM
On another
note, I see that Putin, ooops, Medvedev wants to place missiles near Poland. Medvedev said that he is counting on
our new President to make "conciliatory gestures".
You might be too young to remember, but I would say
"Cuban missles in reverse."
idesign
11-21-2008, 04:38 PM
You might
be too young to remember, but I would say "Cuban missles in reverse."
I think its apples and oranges. A
non-nuke defensive missile program in Europe, with full NATO support - in our current political climate - is much
different than Nikita K. trying to plant offensive nukes in a puppet state ruled by a certified gangster.
The
spirit of Che Guevara died its final death when the Soviets caved to JFK (btw, the last Democrat with balls), and
subsequent communist revolutions in the Americas died slower deaths as toilet paper became more and more scarce, but
in much higher demand. Or, you could say that the need to wipe one's ass properly became both a real and political
necessity with Castro wannabes running amok and attempting too late their plans for centrally-controlled paradises.
They missed the trend, and got caught with their ideology failing like an adolescent at the Mustang Ranch.
Castro just got lucky at just the right time with just the right amount of thuggery. The kind of thuggery that
won't pass the scrutiny of today's international scrutiny unless you're Castro, or Putin, which leads to the crux
of this thread which is Russia's new Tsar. Of course the big differnce between petty dictators and big ones are
big weapons. Which leads to a need to contain them.
belgareth
11-21-2008, 05:08 PM
What do YOU think of new President? :)
A
major mistake and disaster waiting to happen. McCain wasn't much better and I didn't vote for either of them. I
think we are in for some very bad times.
But then, I've been saying that for a long time and as predicted,
things have continued to worsen under each successive president. Obama's crazy ideas are just going to speed things
up.
Mtnjim
11-21-2008, 05:53 PM
I think its
apples and oranges. A non-nuke defensive missile program in Europe, with full NATO support - in our current
political climate - is much different than Nikita K. trying to plant offensive nukes in a puppet state ruled by a
certified gangster.
It might not look so different through Russian eyes.
idesign
11-24-2008, 07:03 PM
It might
not look so different through Russian eyes.
I think Putin has two eyes, one sharper than the other.
idesign
01-23-2009, 06:44 PM
Alex! Its been a long time
since we have spoken мой друг, вы
хорошие?
We have a new President now, what do you think of our future
political relations with Obama? Do you think he is a match for Medvedev/Putin?
I also see that Moscow and Kiev
have a dispute with gas deliveries to Europe. What is the real problem with Gazprom?
Alex157
05-05-2010, 01:48 PM
Alex! Its
been a long time since we have spoken ìîé äðóã, âû õîðîøèå?
We have a new President now, what do you think of
our future political relations with Obama? Do you think he is a match for Medvedev/Putin?
I also see that Moscow
and Kiev have a dispute with gas deliveries to Europe. What is the real problem with Gazprom?
Hello
everybody :)
Idesign, sorry for some delay in my answer :)
well, the only problem with our gas that it cannot be
devided among 100 millions of people :) so some of them get much bigger money from it than others :)
idesign
05-05-2010, 09:04 PM
No problem Alexey, its only been
a year, and I had a girlfriend who took that long to get ready for a date. Come to think of it, she was Russian!
:)
A lot of water has flowed under the bridge (but not gas) in the past year or more. How is everything in your
part of the world?
Alex157
05-06-2010, 01:16 PM
No problem
Alexey, its only been a year, and I had a girlfriend who took that long to get ready for a date. Come to think of
it, she was Russian! :)
A lot of water has flowed under the bridge (but not gas) in the past year or more. How
is everything in your part of the world?
yes, Greg, with Russians it can take years :) I mean getting
ready for a date :)
Inded gas is flowing all right :)
We are OK. Well, politically we are in shit up to our
ears as always, but it is our normal condition :)
How things are going on on the forum?
idesign
05-15-2010, 08:39 PM
The forum is good Alex, but
politically we're in shit up to our tallest basketball stars, especially considering that some of them are from
China. :)
Are you keeping up with the American experiment?
Alex157
09-25-2010, 08:03 AM
The forum
is good Alex, but politically we're in shit up to our tallest basketball stars, especially considering that some of
them are from China. :)
Are you keeping up with the American experiment?
No, Greg, we are far ahead
:)
But I am sure that many of my compatriots would be happy to hear that American has some troubels too :)
By the way, we had a terrible summer - it was almost as hot as in Florida in August :)
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