Gas Prices

[belgareth]

//rant=ON//

They have

gone through the roof. And the oil companies claim they can't help it. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, usually

regarding such things as a waste of time except for the laugh many give me. However, consider this.

Gas prices

have risen 85% in the past 5 years.

Gas Prises have risen 43% since January.

The oil companies blame it on

shortages. But there is still plenty of gas. When was the last time you had to wait to buy gas because somebody was

out of gas to sell? Consumption has not gone down but there are no shortages. OPEC is still producing the same

amount or more of petroleum as five years ago and not charging enough more to cause fuel prices to be so high.



At the same time, the oil companies are showing record setting profits. I know as I am a stock holder in a couple

of them. The truth is that it is not costing the oil companies much if any more to produce a gallon of gas as

opposed to the begining of the year. But they are charging a lot more claiming that maintenance issues have cut

supply. If there are maintenance issues isn;'t that the fault of management? And shouldn't the company eat that

cost resulting from self inflicted maintenance issues instead of using it to boost profits?

Please, don't

believe what I am saying here. Check into it yourselves. Then, if it is true, contact your elected representatives

and let them know you are unhappy about it.
//rant=OFF//

[DrSmellThis]

I hear you.

Very similar

things are happening in health care management and pharmaceuticals.

The principle at stake:

Corporate greed

is especially dangerous when involved with products and services we're hard pressed to do without.

That

inhibits consumer choice, and hence market checks and balances.

I agree that is one of the best things to

write your representatives about.

[Bruce]

I saw it coming. Here's a photo of

our car fueling up in the driveway:
http://www.love-scent.com/images/zap-car.jpg

[belgareth]

Yes, Bruce. :) But an awful lot

of people cannot afford to buy one of those. Others of us have to have a large vehicle for the work they do. And in

the end electrical cars will be impacted too.

Unfortunately, the poorest are always hit hardest by things like

this. Before long it is going to have a serious impact on food prices which will cause more people to go hungry.

Rising gas prices will result in higher fuel oil and electricity prices as well. Those will make it even harder on

the least fortunate. Many of them are losing their freedom to get around now and with that their ability to earn a

living.

I am a strong proponent of free trade but gouging is another thing altogether. If government has any

purpose at all it is to protect the people from being fleeced like this. And they are doing a truly lousy job of

protecting us.

Unfortunately, we are seeing the beginings of the same things with alcohol fuel already and we

will see a lot more of it as organically based fuels gains a foothold. It may place us in a better negotiating

position with the middle east but that doesn't mean we are protected from being fleeced at home.

Before more

harm is done the people need to make it plain to their elected representatives that this is an unacceptable

situation. This is not a party issue. Both major parties have allowed this to go on for many years and it gets worse

daily. It must be stopped now.

[Bruce]

Bel,

That car is the cheapest

vehicle on the road. Anyone can afford one if they can afford a car at all, and insurance (in Oregon anyway) is

20% of what I paid on my minivan (which I felt like I HAD to have; but endend up driving all over town by

myself or 1-2 kids). I figure I'll pay it off in 3 years savings on gas, oil changes and insurance. And you can

run it on a solar panel if you don't mind attracting even more attention.

I agree the gov has sold out on us

totally, but don't hold your breath waiting for them to get a sudden burst of conscience. Stop buying gas. They

don't like it when you do that. BTW, zap makes a small truck too, and they are soon releasing a couple of high

performance cars for folks with the bucks.
http://zapworld.com

[belgareth]

I don't disagree with you if

you change your statement to "If they can afford to buy a new car" There are a lot of people that can't afford

anything more than an old clunker that barely gets them to and from work. Those are the ones hurt the most.

I'm

not holding my breath because I think our government is an utter failure. In my own estimation I believe it is due

to fall before too many more years pass unless something drastically changes.

Their small truck is not really

acceptable because I need convienent carrying space for things like computers and monitors along with the ability to

travel all over the area on the freeways. My service area is 25 miles in any direction from my office. During the

day I sometimes travel more than 100 miles while carrying a variety of computers. Computer equipment and tools

don't like being exposed to the elements and far too many people would prefer they have possession of such things

and are quite liberal in reassigning ownership. I had a small truck when I first opened my business and it was

totally unacceptable for half a dozen reasons. I didn't really want to buy another vehicle but was forced too.

Still others use vans and larger trucks because of their work needs. Eventually hydrogen will be viable as an

interim energy source but electricity is just not workable for many business uses.

[koolking1]

local car dealers

started carrying the "Zap" when it was first introduced, he even drove it to NYC for a media event (it was on one of

the network's morning shows). I took a look at it and was dismayed to find out it cost $26,000.

I'm

surprised that anyone who voted for GWB would complain about the price of gas, any fool knows that if you put an oil

man in charge, the price is going up. There is no shortage of gas and all one has to do is get on I95 at

Thanksgiving or some other major holiday knowing you are going to be sitting in traffic with a million other drivers

all wasting gas. Just the widening of only this one major highway would save gazillions of gallons of gas.



My girlfirend has to drive 100 miles a day just to go to work. I wish she could drive a Zap as it wouldn't

take long to justify the purchase price. But, we live in an area with long and harsh winters and she's on I95 most

of the drive - just seems way too dangerous but I'd appreciate hearing of Bruce's experiences of driving a Zap on

interstates.

My next door neighbor is an older woman on a fixed income. She used to drive to the beach in

the wamer months every day as she has a metal detector and she finds coins and such which she donates to charity.

She can no longer afford the 20 mile roundtrip.

We're paying 2.89 per gallon and my girlfriend just got

back from a business trip to San Francisco where she saw gas at $4.35 in the city - that's a huge difference and I

feel that the folks on the west coast are being cheated badly.

Sue and I are going to retire in 5-6 years

and when we retire it will be to a place where we can walk to the stores, etc.. I hope we don't find a need to own

a car by then.

[belgareth]

Are you implying I voted for

Bush?

[koolking1]

my next

door neighbor did though.

[belgareth]

Oh, sorry. I misundrstood you.

It may not go over to well but I think the French had the right idea a few hundred years ago. All politicians look

and sound better without the top 8" of their body.

[Mtnjim]

Seems the current administration is

loosing lots of people voluntarily and other wise. Lots of scandals from the past 6 years are starting to seep

through the cover ups.:frustrate

[belgareth]

I really had hoped to avoid degressing into party politics.

With that in mind...

New fuel for 21st century -- aluminum pellets?

By Julie Steenhuysen
Fri May 18,

2007





CHICAGO (Reuters) -

Pellets made out of aluminum and gallium can produce pure hydrogen when water is poured on them, offering a possible

alternative to gasoline-powered engines, U.S. scientists say.
Hydrogen

is seen as the ultimate in clean fuels, especially for powering cars, because it emits only water when burned. U.S.

President George W. Bush has proclaimed hydrogen to be the fuel of the future, but researchers have not yet

found the most efficient way to produce and store hydrogen.
The metal

compound pellets may offer a way, said Jerry Woodall, an engineering professor at Purdue University in Indiana who

invented the system.
"The hydrogen is generated on demand, so you only

produce as much as you need when you need it," Woodall said in a statement. He said the hydrogen would not have to

be stored or transported, taking care of two stumbling blocks to generating

hydrogen.
For now, the Purdue scientists think the system could be used

for smaller engines like lawn mowers and chain saws. But they think it would work for cars and trucks as well,

either as a replacement for gasoline or as a means of powering hydrogen fuel

cells.
"It is one of the more feasible ideas out there," Jay Gore, an

engineering professor and interim director of the Energy Center at Purdue's Discovery Park, said in a telephone

interview on Thursday. "It's a very simple idea but had not been done before."
On its own, aluminum will not react with water because it forms a protective skin when exposed to oxygen.

Adding gallium keeps the film from forming, allowing the aluminum to react with oxygen in the

water.
This reaction splits the oxygen and hydrogen contained in water,

releasing hydrogen in the process.
"I was cleaning a crucible

containing liquid alloys of gallium and aluminum," Woodall said. "When I added water to this alloy -- talk about a

discovery -- there was a violent poof."
What is left over is aluminum

oxide and gallium. In the engine, the byproduct of burning hydrogen is water.
"No toxic fumes are produced," Woodall said.
"When and if fuel

cells become economically viable, our method would compete with gasoline at $3 per gallon even if aluminum costs

more than a dollar per pound."
Recycling the aluminum oxide byproduct

and developing a lower grade of gallium could bring down costs, making the system more affordable, Woodall

said.
The Purdue Research Foundation holds title to the primary patent,

which has been filed with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. An Indiana startup company, AlGalCo LLC., has

received a license for the exclusive right to commercialize the process.

[gaf]

A few years ago I met a guy that

invented a water powered car , about 10 or 15 years... He had some very interesting reactions from the oil

companies!
In fact one of them payed him out a rather large sum of money to keep quiet and brought the rights to

his technique. I can't remember the details of how it worked but he was a part time inventor and it was just

another one of his crazy projects. In fact he was so eccentric that a lot of people got concerned about his new

found wealth and wouldn't belive that he came up with an H2O powered car and got "hush money" , so they

investigated him!

[belgareth]

Gaf, I don't mean to belittle

you at all, but that story has been around in one form or another for a long time. Some proof, even names and

addresses that could be followed up would be a tremendous help. The newspapers would have a day with a true story of

that nature. I doubt that it could be covered up for any length of time.

[DrSmellThis]

Here's a ten year old free

video on a closely related, basic aspect of the topic.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2464139837181538044

I maybe haven't watched it yet, so

don't blame me if it sucks. It does look entertaining on it's face. If it's the one I saw 8 years ago, then it

was quite interesting. I think it was called "free energy". There is one called "free energy, the race to zero

point". Maybe that's it. Hell, maybe it's the one I just posted. I haven't had my coffee yet.

[gaf]

Bel,
here's a link to support my

story. (someone else who did it)
http://www.befreetech.com/energysuppression.htm

home page of the guy

I meet:
http://home.comcast.net/~cassetto/kingworldwide.html
It doesn't mention anything about a H20

car, but it's where he got the money from for this venture. Obviously he can't mention the fact....

I used to

work in news (tv) and we did several stories on this subject , just because you didn't see it on fox does not mean

it didn't happen. As I wrote, the very fact it isn't common knowledge is because it was covered up by the oil

companies.
Do a google search on "water powered car , new zealand" , you should get enough hits to be able to make

up your own mind.

[belgareth]

I'm sorry, Gaf, but most of

those are laughable on the face of them. Most of them are completely flawed and unworkable. They make nice stories

but thats about it. Ask yourself this, one of the 'Designs' was sold to the Indonesians, why didn't they do

anything with it? Are they in on the conspiracy too, along with all the other world governents?

The only one

that holds any merit is the video and I'll look into it. Not being a TV watcher I've never seen any of those

alleged anchor people or heard of them.

Verification is always useful. There is very little in the way of

verifiable information in that article. Mostly unsupported claims. I will grant that a couple are based on sound

principles but are far from what could be considered workable.

Personally, I believe hydrogen is the fuel source

for the near future and other, more powerful sources will be discovered.

[gaf]

you gotta love conspiracy

theories...
Yep, a lot of the google hits do read as complete crap! (now I've read some of them in detail)
Lets

just agree to disagree, I'm no engineer and can't propose a fomula that will work, but know what I was told by

several sources.
Who knows , maybe they were just spinning a line... But I do know that a deisel car can run on

old vege oil with some white spirits added,
(they did it on "top gear") now thats a fact!

[belgareth]

Yup, that is completely true

about the diesel. You don't even really need to add white spirits so long as the temperature is warm enough to

allow for smooth flow. While it is running on a non-petroleum based fuel the issue of carbon dioxide is still there.

You also still have the issue of unburned components in the fuel ending up in the air. Still not a very good

solution.

Top Gear? I'm assuming that's some TV program. Believe it or not, I do not watch any television and

haven't in many years.

[Bruce]

Check out the film Who Killed the

Electric Car? I have been hearing folks tell me about it since I started driving my electric car. I finally

watched it last night. Still picking my jaw up off the ground. Amazing well-told documentation of a tragedy. You

might be able to get a copy at your local video rental joint. See it!

Kool, my Zap cost 10K brand new. It

wouldn't solve Sue's transportation problems however. This is just an around town vehicle. That's all I use it

for, and the stats indicate that is good enough for 90% of the driving that is getting done today. I put

between 20 and 40 miles a day on it and love every moment of it. Eugene is a very "green" city and I make instant

friends wherever I go. This is not a vehicle to get road rage in and it seems to defuse that kind of energy

wherever it goes. I call it my "smile machine."

It's hard to take yourself seriously when you are driving

something like this:
http://www.love-scent.com/images/zap-car.jpg

Great way to advertise your local

business too.

Peace and Love,
B

[gaf]

What a great looking car!
reminds

me of the one they drove on "george and mildred" a bbc programme from the 70's.. (only those over 35 will

remember)

Bel:
Sorry, I realised today that you may not know "top gear" , it's a bbc motoring show. Very funny

as the presenters tend to disagree about most things. http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/

[belgareth]

That makes sense. I do have to

mention something then. My son in law is a bit of a know it all. Every time he disagrees with me on something he'll

tell me they proved/disproved it on a show called Mythbusters here in the US. A couple times I've been forced to

drag out textbooks to demonstrate he and his television show were wrong. He still owes me $100 on a bet because he

insisted something from the TV was the truth.

He tried that with several professors at a party here one evening

and was thoroughly embarassed when they tore the show apart and clearly implied anybody who believed the show were

idiots. Just 'cause you see it on TV doesn't mean it is right or the truth or even based in reality. The same

applies to stuff seen on the web.

[gaf]

Mythbusters is on tele over here as

well , very entertaining show but like you said purely errr, entertainment.
I look upon the web as being a bit like

a modern "bible" , you can prove or disprove anything you want. Oh dear, hope this doesn't open up a whole new can

of worms....

[belgareth]

True about the bible and the

web. You won't get any argument form me on that point.

[Alex157]

I have heard that Indians are

going to produce a car which costs $2,500 .
It seems that someday I'll buy a car too :)

[Rbt]

Bruce, your car reminds me of that

one I saw on a TV special that was made about 1968 on the Isle of Man that used a motorcycle engine and coule

literally be picked up and carried around (at least pulled). The BBC special on it had the guy driviing it through

the office halls and in and out of the elevator/lift.

I also heard today that there is a "new" technology for

cars that is based on running the engine on compressed air.

[BGuy20]

Not sure if this has been covered

already, it's late and I don't want to read through the whole thread.

There are 2 main things (from what I

understand) that go into the price of gasoline. The first is crude prices. We all know these have been

rising.

The second, however, is refining capacity. We have to process the oil we get to make it to gasoline

then truck it to all the stations. The bottleneck is here. We haven't built a new refinery in the U.S. in about 30

years, IIRC. These refineries are operating near 100% capacity. They're designed to work best at about 90%, but we

don't have any extra capacity to spare. Anything that knocks out refining capacity will send gas prices shooting

up.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to buy the Tesla Whitestar sedan in a couple of years. I know that, on

balance, whatever I save will be consumed by cars in developing nations, but I'd feel better with a car on the road

that just plugs in and doesn't use gasoline. The question is will Tesla be able to get a fairly mass-produced

electric car with similar specs to its roadster (150+ miles per charge). If so, I'd certainly give it a look.

[belgareth]

The problem is aggravated by

the fact that we have not increased power generation hardly at all either. $5.8 billion dollars invested in wind

farms hasn't even scratched the surface of the problem, new hydroelectric is almost impossible, coal and oil plants

are balked at and nuclear power has been stalled for something like 30 years. An electric car is nice but the power

still has to come from someplace and we are at or exceeding capacity there too.

[idesign]

The US has the natural and

technological resources to cut energy costs and foreign dependence by more than half, gas prices included.