Androstanone and the VNO

[jvkohl]

Looking back on

the "Pheromone Discussion" Forum, I found the following information:





AndrostAnone is known to evoke a stronger response in the human female VNO then does androstenone

(thus proving my original theory correct).

See for yourself:


AndrostAnone is the first bar shown

(5α-androstan-3-one)


Androstenone (-none)

is the forth one listed (5α-androst-16-en-3-one)


Androstadienone is the fifth one listed

(androsta-4,16-en-3-one)



http://www.erox.com/images/Steroid2.GIF


Since he has offered this "proof" that his

theory is correct, I hope that Archetypical Hybrid (HEC) will tell us whether the image he posted was part of a

published paper. I vaguely recall seeing something similar that was shown to me by the chemist for Erox corp., and

also that--at the time--he was using the chart to show that DHEA--second bar from the right on the

chart--(reportedly used in Winnifred Cutler's product) did not activate the human VNO, despite the obvious

comparable activity to Androstanone. If so, comparable activity would indicate that Androstanone is not active.



Perhaps it was another chart; I could be mistaken. If the chart was published, it would help to clarify

matters related to reports of human VNO activity that are no longer used in the marketing of "Natural Attraction

(TM)" (formerly Erox corporation) products (I noticed that the image is linked from the former "erox"

http://www.erox.com/images/Steroid2.GIF and the erox link now takes us to the Natural Attraction(TM) home

page).

This also brings me to an issue I have with debate about unreferenced research from unpublished or

anonymous sources. When exposed to scientific inquiry, these sources typically promptly dissapear, but may also then

reappear, again, with anonymity. Are you still "out there" Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)? Let's discuss pheromone

"science."

JVK
.com

[bronzie]

jv, gegogi has been getting good

results from Androstanone, vno or no vno, seems to be working for him

what is your personal opinion on

Androstanone??

[jvkohl]

jv, gegogi has been

getting good results from Androstanone, vno or no vno, seems to be working for him

what is your personal

opinion on Androstanone??

I don't have an opinion, yet. Still trying to find any information that

might support its use. One site states that it is homologous with androstenone (Archetypical Hybrid is familiar with

the site), but no details on the homology, and no definition of homologous--as used in this chemical context--are

provided.

JVK

[jvkohl]

Thought I had started this post in

the Pheromone Research Section, which is where it belongs, so as not to annoy those not interested in research. Not

sure how it ended up in "Pheromone Discussion"

JVK
.com

[Bruce]

A moderator probably moved it. The

research section is theoretically only for posting links to research articles etc., not discussing them.

[belgareth]

Thought I had

started this post in the Pheromone Research Section, which is where it belongs, so as not to annoy those not

interested in research. Not sure how it ended up in "Pheromone Discussion"

JVK
.com
I moved

it because the argument betweeen you two clearly does not belong in the research section. The point of this thread

was to continue to argue and that is not what that forum is for.

[bjf]

I don't think anything should be

based on one Erox study. Didn't they have a smear campaign on -anone, (Clive Jennings, U. of Utah), calling it pig

pheromones. Of course they know what they are doing as well, they did patent A1.

[belgareth]

I don't think

anything should be based on one Erox study. Didn't they have a smear campaign on -anone, (Clive Jennings, U. of

Utah), calling it pig pheromones. Of course they know what they are doing as well, they did patent A1.



No decent scientist is going to close their mind to any possibility, no matter how remote. A single study or even

the agreement of a number of scientists does not preclude the possibility of another option being the right one.

Science isn't about personalities or being right, its about exploration and learning. Once you have made up your

mind on any topic you have precluded learning anything new about that topic.

[WorkingMann]

Archetypical Hybrid: where did they go

I don't have further time to waste in arguing a moot

point.. JVK, I suggest you find something more productive to do with your time - write another book maybe.. At least

then people can decide if they want to read through your ramblings or not.

When you posted about the new

phero everybody was angry about it and negative towards it.. I "defended" you and said you just were trying to help

inform and they shouldn't be so agressive..
But why haven't you learned not to be the same? Treat others as you

want them to treat you.. You want people shall keep being negative towards you since you post in this tone?

And I

really cant see why you don't wanna use time on a little debate.. If you're a scientist then I would belive that

even diskussing kindergarden science should be worth time spending arguing/diskussing because you could perhaps

teach and give valuable info.. And this would perhaps make you more reliable seen from some of the other members in

here (that doesn't trust you and your postings).. So I can't see why you're not trying to help yourself..

[Bruce]

Folks,

Hold on to your hats.

Something has to be done here in terms of moderation. This is obviously not your basic friendly scientific debate

designed to arrive at the truth. I agree with WM that HEC could have a nice safe place up on the moral high ground,

but it just didn't pan out that way. Be that as it may, he has taken a rediculous amount of commercially motivated

abuse that does not further the goals of science or this forum. I've been lax about doing anything thus far, but

the other moderators have also gotten a snootfull of these personal attacks, we've discussed it, and they have the

green light to delete/edit at will. So, boys (you know who you are), if you notice your posts disappearing or

getting edited, you know what happened.

Peace and Love, the law of the land,
B

[WorkingMann]

Good job Bruce..

This is

one more thing of the great service of L-S :kiss:

[Gegogi]

I did a quick read of the Erox

paper and they twist their information to make Erox Realm products look like the only useful product spawned by the

hand of man. Apparently they detected human VNO activity only if estratetraenol or androstadienone are sniffed. Thus

they imply other pheromones--androstenone and androstenol specifically--are not useful outside of hog heaven.



Nevertheless Erox admits human olfactory organs detect androstenone and androstenol as scents, but make clear

the VNO is not involved. Isn't this a moot point if human scent receptors carry pheromone information as well? Now

my knowledge here is shallow, but my understanding is that human noses transmit both scent and pheromone infomation

to the appropriate parts of the brain.

Also--and this is purely anecdotal--my considerable use of androstenol

rich products such as SOE and alpha and beta androstenol indicate there is more at play than mere "smell." When my

friends catch wind of my 24 inches of SOE spiked with beta androstenol there is a whirlwind of verbage unexplainable

in such ordinary situations.

As for Realm (male version), it didn't do jack for me. I assume the estratetraenol

therein was so diluted as too be totally ineffective. On the other hand, I have found 1-3 drops of chemset

androstadienone to help relax women, especially those in a bitchy mood due to their monthy punishment.

[tounge]

Gegogi, itwould be cool if you

could print some of these arguments off. And then present them to the faculty in the biology and chemistry

departments at the University of which you work. I think you would find it very interesting.

I have given

some of this debate over to people I am familar with at the local Uni and Pharmacy school. And some of it has been

passed on to a Prof of Biochemistry at an Ivy league school(though not by me).

I am not going to reveal any

of the feedback that I have heard up to this point. I think that it would serve me better to sort out the wheat from

the chaff in this debate. But if any of you have the means, I would suggest that you do talk to different experts in

your locals, for some rather enlighting opinions, away from the marketing of the pheromone forums, both here and

elsewhere.

[bronzie]

Im with bruce on this overall,

although HEC has been short tempered and rude at times and i think he should be nicer to prospective customers and

forum members, but i believe he should get some air time and allow himself to be exposed in the way he sees fit and

not have everyone cut him down each time he posts because they dont agree with him, i have done my share of HEC

critique, however this forum should be about co operation, not competition

on the flip side, i hold jvkhols

words in high respect and i like his product, i personally have followed his posts for years and believe others have

too, for many on this forum, whether they like to believe it or not, he is a phero GURU, and as i understand it,

next to Dr.Dodd, one of the few that i can name by name! he has the research credentials and he backs up everything

he says.

[WorkingMann]

Im with bruce

on this overall, although HEC has been short tempered and rude at times and i think he should be nicer to

prospective customers and forum members, but i believe he should get some air time and allow himself to be exposed

in the way he sees fit and not have everyone cut him down each time he posts because they dont agree with him, i

have done my share of HEC critique, however this forum should be about co operation, not competition

on the flip

side, i hold jvkhols words in high respect and i like his product, i personally have followed his posts for years

and believe others have too, for many on this forum, whether they like to believe it or not, he is a phero GURU, and

as i understand it, next to Dr.Dodd, one of the few that i can name by name! he has the research credentials and he

backs up everything he says.

Yes I agree but I also believe it's not only HEC.. It's generel some

people..
It's fine to argue and debate but it should still be keept in an orderly manner.. We are adults and

therefor we know we have to come up with good arguments and not just saying I'm know it just because! Or when

someone else comes with a better argument saying I don't wanna discuss this or just try to yell highest and

critisize the other part because they dont agree..
This is not personal attacks but I just wanna say for everybodys

sake and the point of this forum we don't need all of that because it's waste of time reading it, and waste of

posts..
If you wanna argue like that then meet or do it somewere else than this wonderfull forum..
And again this

is not negatively meant just wanna point out my oppinion..
:wave:

[jvkohl]

I have given some of

this debate over to people I am familar with at the local Uni and Pharmacy school. And some of it has been passed on

to a Prof of Biochemistry at an Ivy league school(though not by me).

My November, 2006 continuing

education presentation at the annual meeting of the Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality was videotaped,

and I may make it available to other researchers. I also plan to post the powerpoint presentation that I used for

the presentation on my domains.

Research results from a current study I helped to design will be available

later in the year, and I expect "some of this debate" to end soon--or, minimally, become more focussed as these

additional resources become more widely known.

During the same time, my Journal of Psychology and Human

Sexuality review article will be published with concurrent publication as a book chapter. I hope to get pheromone

"science" back on the right track soon--and am relatively certain that the people you know will agree that this

needs to happen.

JVK

[jvkohl]

I did a quick read of

the Erox paper and they twist their information... Apparently they detected human VNO activity only if

estratetraenol or androstadienone are sniffed.

They also patented the delivery "sniffing" system,

which means that no one could replicate their findings, and published in a trade journal--not in a "scientific"

journal. On the other hand, researchers have since shown behavioral affects of androstadienone without human VNO

criteria.



... Erox admits human olfactory organs detect androstenone and androstenol as

scents, but make clear the VNO is not involved.

Now we're getting somewhere. Human olfactory organs

detect putative human pheromones without VNO involvement; behavioral affects of a androstadienone without VNO

involvement...



Isn't this a moot point if human scent receptors carry pheromone

information as well? Now my knowledge here is shallow, but my understanding is that human noses transmit both scent

and pheromone infomation to the appropriate parts of the brain.

Your understanding is similar to

mine, and does appear to make the human VNO a moot point. The luteinizing hormone (LH) response to androstenol also

makes the human VNO issue a moot point, whether or not Erox says androstenol is a "pig" pheromone. The LH response

to pheromones is probably the best known mammalian response (and women are mammals who respond to androstenol with

an LH and mood response).



Also--and this is purely anecdotal--my considerable use of

androstenol rich products such as SOE and alpha and beta androstenol indicate there is more at play than mere

"smell."

Many people rely on such anecdotes, try the products, and agree that there is more at play

than "smell." The LH response to pheromones can be elicited by other sensory (think, visual) input--but only after

it is "conditioned" to occur in response to pheromones.


... I have found 1-3 drops of chemset

androstadienone to help relax women, especially those in a bitchy mood due to their monthy

punishment.

Your anecdotal findings are consistent with research on the behavioral affects of

androstadienone. Perhaps others can now better understand why my anecdotal findings were a large part of SoE product

design. Once you observe similar "affects" repeatedly, either you find additional support (e.g., androsterone meets

the criteria for a species specific pheromone), or you look elsewhere for explanations.

Gegogi explains a

lot, and --as usual--in terms that most people can understand.

JVK