View Full Version : Androstanone and the VNO
jvkohl
01-04-2007, 01:04 PM
Looking back on
the "Pheromone Discussion" Forum, I found the following information:
AndrostAnone is known to evoke a stronger response in the human female VNO then does androstenone
(thus proving my original theory correct).
See for yourself:
AndrostAnone is the first bar shown
(5α-androstan-3-one)
Androstenone (-none)
is the forth one listed (5α-androst-16-en-3-one)
Androstadienone is the fifth one listed
(androsta-4,16-en-3-one)
http://www.erox.com/images/Steroid2.GIF
Since he has offered this "proof" that his
theory is correct, I hope that Archetypical Hybrid (HEC) will tell us whether the image he posted was part of a
published paper. I vaguely recall seeing something similar that was shown to me by the chemist for Erox corp., and
also that--at the time--he was using the chart to show that DHEA--second bar from the right on the
chart--(reportedly used in Winnifred Cutler's product) did not activate the human VNO, despite the obvious
comparable activity to Androstanone. If so, comparable activity would indicate that Androstanone is not active.
Perhaps it was another chart; I could be mistaken. If the chart was published, it would help to clarify
matters related to reports of human VNO activity that are no longer used in the marketing of "Natural Attraction
(TM)" (formerly Erox corporation) products (I noticed that the image is linked from the former "erox"
http://www.erox.com/images/Steroid2.GIF and the erox link now takes us to the Natural Attraction(TM) home
page).
This also brings me to an issue I have with debate about unreferenced research from unpublished or
anonymous sources. When exposed to scientific inquiry, these sources typically promptly dissapear, but may also then
reappear, again, with anonymity. Are you still "out there" Archetypical Hybrid (HEC)? Let's discuss pheromone
"science."
JVK
.com
bronzie
01-04-2007, 02:35 PM
jv, gegogi has been getting good
results from Androstanone, vno or no vno, seems to be working for him
what is your personal opinion on
Androstanone??
jvkohl
01-04-2007, 02:53 PM
jv, gegogi has been
getting good results from Androstanone, vno or no vno, seems to be working for him
what is your personal
opinion on Androstanone??
I don't have an opinion, yet. Still trying to find any information that
might support its use. One site states that it is homologous with androstenone (Archetypical Hybrid is familiar with
the site), but no details on the homology, and no definition of homologous--as used in this chemical context--are
provided.
JVK
jvkohl
01-05-2007, 07:09 PM
Thought I had started this post in
the Pheromone Research Section, which is where it belongs, so as not to annoy those not interested in research. Not
sure how it ended up in "Pheromone Discussion"
JVK
.com
Bruce
01-05-2007, 07:14 PM
A moderator probably moved it. The
research section is theoretically only for posting links to research articles etc., not discussing them.
belgareth
01-05-2007, 08:10 PM
Thought I had
started this post in the Pheromone Research Section, which is where it belongs, so as not to annoy those not
interested in research. Not sure how it ended up in "Pheromone Discussion"
JVK
.com
I moved
it because the argument betweeen you two clearly does not belong in the research section. The point of this thread
was to continue to argue and that is not what that forum is for.
I don't think anything should be
based on one Erox study. Didn't they have a smear campaign on -anone, (Clive Jennings, U. of Utah), calling it pig
pheromones. Of course they know what they are doing as well, they did patent A1.
belgareth
01-06-2007, 07:26 AM
I don't think
anything should be based on one Erox study. Didn't they have a smear campaign on -anone, (Clive Jennings, U. of
Utah), calling it pig pheromones. Of course they know what they are doing as well, they did patent A1.
No decent scientist is going to close their mind to any possibility, no matter how remote. A single study or even
the agreement of a number of scientists does not preclude the possibility of another option being the right one.
Science isn't about personalities or being right, its about exploration and learning. Once you have made up your
mind on any topic you have precluded learning anything new about that topic.
WorkingMann
01-06-2007, 10:28 AM
Archetypical Hybrid: where did they go
I don't have further time to waste in arguing a moot
point.. JVK, I suggest you find something more productive to do with your time - write another book maybe.. At least
then people can decide if they want to read through your ramblings or not.
When you posted about the new
phero everybody was angry about it and negative towards it.. I "defended" you and said you just were trying to help
inform and they shouldn't be so agressive..
But why haven't you learned not to be the same? Treat others as you
want them to treat you.. You want people shall keep being negative towards you since you post in this tone?
And I
really cant see why you don't wanna use time on a little debate.. If you're a scientist then I would belive that
even diskussing kindergarden science should be worth time spending arguing/diskussing because you could perhaps
teach and give valuable info.. And this would perhaps make you more reliable seen from some of the other members in
here (that doesn't trust you and your postings).. So I can't see why you're not trying to help yourself..
Bruce
01-06-2007, 10:41 AM
Folks,
Hold on to your hats.
Something has to be done here in terms of moderation. This is obviously not your basic friendly scientific debate
designed to arrive at the truth. I agree with WM that HEC could have a nice safe place up on the moral high ground,
but it just didn't pan out that way. Be that as it may, he has taken a rediculous amount of commercially motivated
abuse that does not further the goals of science or this forum. I've been lax about doing anything thus far, but
the other moderators have also gotten a snootfull of these personal attacks, we've discussed it, and they have the
green light to delete/edit at will. So, boys (you know who you are), if you notice your posts disappearing or
getting edited, you know what happened.
Peace and Love, the law of the land,
B
WorkingMann
01-06-2007, 10:52 AM
Good job Bruce..
This is
one more thing of the great service of L-S :kiss:
Gegogi
01-06-2007, 10:18 PM
I did a quick read of the Erox
paper and they twist their information to make Erox Realm products look like the only useful product spawned by the
hand of man. Apparently they detected human VNO activity only if estratetraenol or androstadienone are sniffed. Thus
they imply other pheromones--androstenone and androstenol specifically--are not useful outside of hog heaven.
Nevertheless Erox admits human olfactory organs detect androstenone and androstenol as scents, but make clear
the VNO is not involved. Isn't this a moot point if human scent receptors carry pheromone information as well? Now
my knowledge here is shallow, but my understanding is that human noses transmit both scent and pheromone infomation
to the appropriate parts of the brain.
Also--and this is purely anecdotal--my considerable use of androstenol
rich products such as SOE and alpha and beta androstenol indicate there is more at play than mere "smell." When my
friends catch wind of my 24 inches of SOE spiked with beta androstenol there is a whirlwind of verbage unexplainable
in such ordinary situations.
As for Realm (male version), it didn't do jack for me. I assume the estratetraenol
therein was so diluted as too be totally ineffective. On the other hand, I have found 1-3 drops of chemset
androstadienone to help relax women, especially those in a bitchy mood due to their monthy punishment.
tounge
01-07-2007, 12:30 PM
Gegogi, itwould be cool if you
could print some of these arguments off. And then present them to the faculty in the biology and chemistry
departments at the University of which you work. I think you would find it very interesting.
I have given
some of this debate over to people I am familar with at the local Uni and Pharmacy school. And some of it has been
passed on to a Prof of Biochemistry at an Ivy league school(though not by me).
I am not going to reveal any
of the feedback that I have heard up to this point. I think that it would serve me better to sort out the wheat from
the chaff in this debate. But if any of you have the means, I would suggest that you do talk to different experts in
your locals, for some rather enlighting opinions, away from the marketing of the pheromone forums, both here and
elsewhere.
bronzie
01-07-2007, 02:55 PM
Im with bruce on this overall,
although HEC has been short tempered and rude at times and i think he should be nicer to prospective customers and
forum members, but i believe he should get some air time and allow himself to be exposed in the way he sees fit and
not have everyone cut him down each time he posts because they dont agree with him, i have done my share of HEC
critique, however this forum should be about co operation, not competition
on the flip side, i hold jvkhols
words in high respect and i like his product, i personally have followed his posts for years and believe others have
too, for many on this forum, whether they like to believe it or not, he is a phero GURU, and as i understand it,
next to Dr.Dodd, one of the few that i can name by name! he has the research credentials and he backs up everything
he says.
WorkingMann
01-07-2007, 03:42 PM
Im with bruce
on this overall, although HEC has been short tempered and rude at times and i think he should be nicer to
prospective customers and forum members, but i believe he should get some air time and allow himself to be exposed
in the way he sees fit and not have everyone cut him down each time he posts because they dont agree with him, i
have done my share of HEC critique, however this forum should be about co operation, not competition
on the flip
side, i hold jvkhols words in high respect and i like his product, i personally have followed his posts for years
and believe others have too, for many on this forum, whether they like to believe it or not, he is a phero GURU, and
as i understand it, next to Dr.Dodd, one of the few that i can name by name! he has the research credentials and he
backs up everything he says.
Yes I agree but I also believe it's not only HEC.. It's generel some
people..
It's fine to argue and debate but it should still be keept in an orderly manner.. We are adults and
therefor we know we have to come up with good arguments and not just saying I'm know it just because! Or when
someone else comes with a better argument saying I don't wanna discuss this or just try to yell highest and
critisize the other part because they dont agree..
This is not personal attacks but I just wanna say for everybodys
sake and the point of this forum we don't need all of that because it's waste of time reading it, and waste of
posts..
If you wanna argue like that then meet or do it somewere else than this wonderfull forum..
And again this
is not negatively meant just wanna point out my oppinion..
:wave:
jvkohl
01-07-2007, 08:45 PM
I have given some of
this debate over to people I am familar with at the local Uni and Pharmacy school. And some of it has been passed on
to a Prof of Biochemistry at an Ivy league school(though not by me).
My November, 2006 continuing
education presentation at the annual meeting of the Society for the Scientific Study of Sexuality was videotaped,
and I may make it available to other researchers. I also plan to post the powerpoint presentation that I used for
the presentation on my domains.
Research results from a current study I helped to design will be available
later in the year, and I expect "some of this debate" to end soon--or, minimally, become more focussed as these
additional resources become more widely known.
During the same time, my Journal of Psychology and Human
Sexuality review article will be published with concurrent publication as a book chapter. I hope to get pheromone
"science" back on the right track soon--and am relatively certain that the people you know will agree that this
needs to happen.
JVK
jvkohl
01-07-2007, 09:18 PM
I did a quick read of
the Erox paper and they twist their information... Apparently they detected human VNO activity only if
estratetraenol or androstadienone are sniffed.
They also patented the delivery "sniffing" system,
which means that no one could replicate their findings, and published in a trade journal--not in a "scientific"
journal. On the other hand, researchers have since shown behavioral affects of androstadienone without human VNO
criteria.
... Erox admits human olfactory organs detect androstenone and androstenol as
scents, but make clear the VNO is not involved.
Now we're getting somewhere. Human olfactory organs
detect putative human pheromones without VNO involvement; behavioral affects of a androstadienone without VNO
involvement...
Isn't this a moot point if human scent receptors carry pheromone
information as well? Now my knowledge here is shallow, but my understanding is that human noses transmit both scent
and pheromone infomation to the appropriate parts of the brain.
Your understanding is similar to
mine, and does appear to make the human VNO a moot point. The luteinizing hormone (LH) response to androstenol also
makes the human VNO issue a moot point, whether or not Erox says androstenol is a "pig" pheromone. The LH response
to pheromones is probably the best known mammalian response (and women are mammals who respond to androstenol with
an LH and mood response).
Also--and this is purely anecdotal--my considerable use of
androstenol rich products such as SOE and alpha and beta androstenol indicate there is more at play than mere
"smell."
Many people rely on such anecdotes, try the products, and agree that there is more at play
than "smell." The LH response to pheromones can be elicited by other sensory (think, visual) input--but only after
it is "conditioned" to occur in response to pheromones.
... I have found 1-3 drops of chemset
androstadienone to help relax women, especially those in a bitchy mood due to their monthy
punishment.
Your anecdotal findings are consistent with research on the behavioral affects of
androstadienone. Perhaps others can now better understand why my anecdotal findings were a large part of SoE product
design. Once you observe similar "affects" repeatedly, either you find additional support (e.g., androsterone meets
the criteria for a species specific pheromone), or you look elsewhere for explanations.
Gegogi explains a
lot, and --as usual--in terms that most people can understand.
JVK
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