JVKohl et al: what's the deal with staDIENone

[drchaos]

versus the androstenol that we know and love.

Judging from the bibliography on , (\"http://,\") it appears that the androstaDIENone has the strongest objective scientific evidence showing sex dimorphic changes in female humans.

My question is : what do you think of the relative importance of androstenol versus androstadienone? 1) as a theoretical scientific question 2) as a man trying to gain success in social situations with pheromone products?

Feel free to be as technical as you want; if I don\'t understand stuff we\'ll ask you to dumb it down.

Now why can\'t we get a staDIENone here on love-scent? images/icons/smile.gif

[jvkohl]

Androstadienone may function as a chemosignal that modulates autonomic nervous system tone as well as psychological state (per Martha McClintock\'s work). However, to my knowledge the source of this particular compound is Erox/Pherin. Similar compounds are available through companies like Sigma, but I don\'t think this is the best approach to take.

The effect of pheromones occurs in context (also per Martha McClintock), see for example: \"Context-dependent effects of steroid chemosignals on human physiology
and mood.\" Jacob S, Hayreh DJ, McClintock MK.
This context includes more odorous compounds like OL, RONE and NONE, which therefore are associated with sex.

Using OL,RONE, or NONE-containing products brings the sexual association to bear during any encounter. Even if it is the androstadienone that\'s directly affecting the hypothalmus and hormones involved in female choice, it is the conditioned response it evokes via association with OL,RONE and NONE, that make these other compounds as effective--or even more effective--than the androstadienone. For example, OL has been shown to effect luteinizing hormone secretion.

Its a matter of imprinting and conditioning. I just sent an update of the to be posted in the next day or two. It includes a link (see page 2/my presentations publications) to an article I wrote that was published in Across Species Comparisons and Psychopathology last month. This article was in response to my friend, Howard Bloom\'s writings about the importance of oxytocin to bonding (in the same issue). I wanted to tell others, and did, that the issue of oxytocin and bonding is all about the pheromone connection.

If you get the chance to read the articles, you\'ll see that Howard talks about oxytocin/bonding but doesn\'t provide any information on the social-environmental stimulus involved that elicits the oxytocin response. He writes about mice that can\'t smell, but misses the point. It\'s the pheromones! I briefly state why it\'s the pheromones that condition the oxytocin response (and many other responses).

I\'m not able to state this so briefly in this forum, there\'s a lot of background information that comes to bear on the entire process. The ASCAP folks are more familiar with the background info--I published the Primacy of Olfaction a few years ago in their newsletter, and most of them have followed my work. I guess the bottom line for me is that androstadienone is too much bother to study, compared to OL, RONE, and NONE, which have repeatedly been shown to be more effective motivators of behavior (whether through scientific reports, or anecdotal information).

Sorry I can\'t seem to make this post more clear. It\'s late and my mind is becoming numb.

[drchaos]

oh boy maybe I should have been a little more careful when I said to get technical. I am a scientist (physics) after all but obviously hardcore research in any field is difficult to the outsiders.

So should I interpret your interpretation this way......

The evolved \"natural\" circumstance is that men present simultaneously -none -nol and -dienone.

It may be the -dienone that is the immediate chemical agonist of the desirable (e.g. \'relaxed\') emotional state in the female, but you believe that is because of conditioning on account of simultaneous -nol and -none presentations from males, and -nol and -none influence other systems more directly w.r.t. the sexual pathways.

And thus would it be that males typically present \'enough\' dienone, or that it is emitted insufficiently sexually dimorphically (e.g. she is smelling/VNOing her own -dienone) to make a substantial differential response to induce a female to enjoy the company of a particular male?
would -dienone make women feel more likely to accept advances from any male in contrast to -nol or -none which may influence particular choice?

[drchaos]

OK looking at the McClintock abstract....

I take back any suggestion of -dienone response not being dimorphic.

It still does sound like -dienone would be a valuable addition to a pheromone product for males if it were in *combination* with the other standard -nol -none and -rone.

Presumably the experimental resutls could be explained by the natural emissions of the male tester plus the -dienone in the experimental application.

Would the observations on men suggest a \"male competitor nearby--be on guard\" response?

It sounds like the -dienone induces a \"i\'m happy because i\'m safe because strong males are around\" response in the females.

----------------

Physiol Behav 2001 Sep 1-15;74(1-2):15-27 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
[Click here to read]
Context-dependent effects of steroid chemosignals on human physiology and mood.

Jacob S, Hayreh DJ, McClintock MK.

Department of Psychology, University of Chicago, 5730 South Woodlawn Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637, USA.

We examined the physiological and psychological effects of nanomolar amounts of steroids applied directly under the nose (Delta4,16-androstadien-3-one and 1,3,5,(10),16-estratetraen-3-ol). These potential human chemosignals were not consciously discernible in a strong-odor carrier (clove oil and propylene glycol). In a double-blind, within-subject, repeated-measures experiment with 65 subjects, we demonstrated that both steroids produced sustained changes in digit skin temperature and palmar skin conductance (an indicator of sympathetic nervous system tone) while the subjects were completing psychological questionnaires or reading. These effects, however, did not follow the sex-stereotyped pattern predicted by a sex attractant function. Both androstadienone and estratetraenol raised the skin temperature of men\'s hands and lowered it in women. Likewise, each steroid increased skin conductance, with a significantly greater effect on women than men. Women\'s responses were observed only in the sessions run by the male tester, an effect that may or may not be solely attributable to tester sex. Men\'s responses, in contrast, were not affected by this difference in socioexperimental condition. Similarly, women experienced an immediate increase in positive mood only in the presence of the male tester, while men\'s responses were unaffected by this socioexperimental context. One source of this sex difference may be the fact that the majority of women were in the late follicular phase of their menstrual cycle. Although it is premature to classify these steroids as pheromones, our data suggest that they function as chemosignals that modulate autonomic nervous system tone as well as psychological state.

[drchaos]

Sorry to be so insistent.

this link from Erox seems to claim with results that only dianone has objective results on the VNO,explicitly showing -nol and -none as no different than other controls.
http://www.erox.com/SixthSense/StoryOne.html (\"http://www.erox.com/SixthSense/StoryOne.html\")

your thoughts?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yeah, I think -dienone would be a great substance to experiment with but its use is patented by Realm. Only Realm for Women contains it, and the quantity is unknown. The feminine fragrance creates a problem in mixing with other products. I\'m waiting for someone to try to purchase the raw compound from Steraloids.com though.
http://www.steraloids.com/products/A/A570.html (\"http://www.steraloids.com/products/A/A570.html\")

[oscar]

truth,

Didn\'t the Erox/Pherin patents cover A-Dienone in fragrances only?
I\'ve long thought that one of the secret ingredients in NPA/TE might just BE Dienone, and it was the patent considerations that kept LaCroy from going public with their contents.
There\'s SOMETHING in NPA that works like nothing else I\'ve ever tried. But then, I\'ve not tried women\'s Realm.
IF the patent protection only applied to the use of Dienone in a fragrance, LaCroy never really had anything to worry about. (That is, until they put out the scented version of TE.)

The above is conjecture, and should be accepted as such, and nothing more.

Oscar images/icons/wink.gif

[jvkohl]

Yes, Doc, I understand the problem with communication accross different disciplines. Can\'t even convey the biology to psychologists--too much jargon, even more difficult for physicists, no doubt. However, you did a great job interpreting.
----------------------
\"It sounds like the -dienone induces a \"i\'m happy because i\'m safe because strong males are around\" response in the females.\"
____________________________________

I think it\'s more likely to be the association with -dienone and OL,RONE, NONE that make the -dienone effective in micro or pico gram amounts.
-----------------------
From McClintock\'s abstract: Similarly, women experienced an immediate increase in positive mood only in the presence of the male tester, while men\'s responses were unaffected by this socioexperimental context.
-----------------------------------
This presence of a male tester includes the effect of his natural OL/RONE/NONE--so it attests somewhat to the conditioned response I focus on.

Re: Erox claims. These folks have a vested interest in promoting the VNO responsivity issue--in claims that only if the VNO responds can the compound be described as a pheromones (or vomeropherin--as they first tried to coin this word). McClintock and others, including me, have a vested interest in ignoring the VNO issues and focussing on the hormone response--especially LH since it is a clear indicator of the affect human pheromones have on hormone levels.

Overall I agree it would be fun to experiment with androstadienone, but somewhat pointless. Same thing with the female counterpart. But the anecdotal info on this forum supports the conditioning approach, since all--or nearly all--the products have a consciously detected odor. Have you read my Neuorendocrinology Letters article? It helps to detail this conditioning. Though it is technical, it\'s something that you should have little trouble getting through.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think some of us, before James came on the board, had hypothesized that -dienone may be the true human pheromone, and the rest (-none, -nol, and -rone) are effective because of conditioned responses. This is all good, but perhaps, -dienone may be more effective with younger and less-experienced girls who\'s conditioned response may be weaker.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok lets just say that the secret ingredients in NPA and the edge are in fact actually a small amount of couplins and didone or however it is spelt and if that is the case we have ourselves the ulitmate product to use on males and females and that is probably why the stuff is so damn expensive per millogram of pheros but so effective above everything else.

CASE CLOSED

[Whitehall]

\"Conditioned response\" - my ass! (Assume you mean as in learned behavior.)

It\'s very clear to me from field experience that female sexual responses to aNONE (at least) are hard-wired. In the right context, and disinhibitioned, a female will be stimulated based on genetic encoding of the VNO and the nervous system. The chemical structure of aNONE will fit a resceptor in the VNO and trigger a signal to some lower part of her brain.

Her physical responses are from a common internal repertoire of scaled, encoded behaviors. Girls don\'t \"learn\" to hair flip or butt present! Nor do they \"learn\" that they should respond to aNONE.

[drchaos]

JVK:

Why are you ignoring the -dienone???

I really don\'t understand.

It still seems to me that looking at the available public experimental literature that the -dienone, and so far nothing else, has a major profound effect that is objectively measurable quickly in deep the brain.

I know why Erox et al have a vested interest in it but what if they\'re right?

Do you believe then that the -nol -none and -rone then act via the conscious olfactory system? Is it that specific?

the -dienone appears to be exceptionally potent.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

So far, the only study on the VNO has shown both -nol and -none not to affect it.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey Truth, I contacted Sigma (a HUGE Chem company) about buying products, and their reply was, that they will only sell chemicals to Universities and Development companies (ie Dupont) but they would sell anything non-chem to private addresses. I dunno what Steraloids would do, but I am guessing that they would follow suit.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hi...
Might I poke my nose in! ...

gents, i\'m confused, it would seem that even though the \"pheremones\" of smells or whatever that are available have a plethora of devotees, the \"scientific\" opinion seems that any action is either subtle or non existent. What you gents appear to be after in the mixing of your various potions, appears to be something along the lines of a concentrated \"sweat\" of cassanova. Surely, it would be logical, that IF the dienone is the true \"activator\" of the human VNO then it should be included in your \"concoctions\". I would consider that what is needed, whilst awaiting the discovery of a \"true\" sex attractant phermone, is a potion containing proportionatly the same \"sterones\" as are found in the sexually successful males \"secretions\". I think isolating these substances and using them individually is missing the point as surely it is the \"total\" experience that counts. Probably the \"dienone\" is worth a try as an additive rather than confined to lining the pockets of misguided perfumiers...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hi...
Might I poke my nose in! ...

gents, i\'m confused, it would seem that even though the \"pheremones\" or smells or whatever that are available have a plethora of devotees, the \"scientific\" opinion seems that any action is either subtle or non existent. What you gents appear to be after in the mixing of your various potions, appears to be something along the lines of a concentrated \"sweat\" of cassanova. Surely, it would be logical, that IF the dienone is the true \"activator\" of the human VNO then it should be included in your \"concoctions\". I would consider that what is needed, whilst awaiting the discovery of a \"true\" sex attractant phermone, is a potion containing proportionatly the same \"sterones\" as are found in the sexually successful males \"secretions\". I think isolating these substances and using them individually is missing the point as surely it is the \"total\" experience that counts. Probably the \"dienone\" is worth a try as an additive rather than confined to lining the pockets of misguided perfumiers...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Rat,

I venture to say that most people using this post are not active in isolating human secretions. About the closest I could come to doing what you suggest is to kidnap a Vegas lounge lizard, force him to sing Danka Shein over and over until he\'s one big sweaty mess, then soak up and apply the guido-mone with smashed pig balls.

[jvkohl]

Whitehall; don\'t get so cocky--or go off half cocked. You can check what I mean by conditioning at the following URL, which links you to my Neuroendocrinology Letters paper.
http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm (\"http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm\")

It\'s not learned behavior, it\'s a conditioned response in the presence of other sensory input.

Others--debate over the human VNO is pointless untill someone shows it is connected to a central processing system. Meanwhile pheromones cause changes in hormone levels, with or without involvment of the VNO. I have serious doubts that the androstadienone is behind the hormonal changes, and if so, it would need to be a determinant early in life--so that NOL; NONE; and RONE responses were conditioned. Even if this androstadienone-driven conditioning occurred early in life, the affect would be to link NOL;NONE;RONE to hormonal changes and behavior.

I\'m not ignoring -dienone, I\'m just placing it in a subordinate position. After all, the researchers using -dienone are showing very subtle effects; nothing at all like what\'s being reported in this Forum. So, why drop back to low level findings when anecdotal evidence strongly favors greater affect.

[jvkohl]

Furthermore (I almost forgot) George Preti et al., didn\'t use -dienone to evoke the LH and mood changes in women. They used axillary secretions from men, presumably containing NON; NONE; RONE. Honestly, most of the VNO garbage merely annoys me. Researchers will be debating this issue for many years, and are very unlikely to come to any conclusion. If a conclusion were likely, I think Erox/Pherin would already have moved further in that direction. After all, they certainly must be trying to find a pathway from the human VNO to the hypothalamus. Since they haven\'t found the pathway, but the LH response is demostrable in men and in women exposed to opposite sex pheromones, I say: forget the VNO until more data is available.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, until we have more people trying androstadienone, we won\'t have enough anecdotal data to determine it\'s potential effect.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Right on mr truth - more investigation of Androstadienone is required - all we need of course is a source of this stuff.

As for the VNO, surely in other species this is the receptor for the \"pheremone\", just because the Adrostadienone does not elicit the desired response, doesn\'t mean we should discount the VNO. Maybe the correct key to this lock just hasn\'t yet been discovered. I do accept hovever that as humans our behaviour is regulated less by scent than other animals, and thus maybe the search for a true \"human\" pheromone is futile. Still the financial rewards being what they are, i\'m sure research in this field will be continued.

I still have problems with plastering myself with megadoses of the available products, as I find the effect of these is unreliable and unproven.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok my \"theroy\" being very flexible is that there is a double response involving a ancient VNO that may or may not still be highly or lowly active and also a change in hormonal levels this would be the result of a bit of evolution in the human race to the higher level of \"so called intelligence- along with insinct as well\" so that available pheromones work to some agree and we do know they have an effect. Just a thought i would be interested in a product containing none nol rone standinonone and also couplins - actually im thinking one that is already availble and is one the best.


NPA and the EDGE of course.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You have to remember that most of the androstadienone was done at very low quantities (picograms). Who knows how powerful and what effect it may have at the dosages we\'re playing with (0.02 mg or so).

Realm for Women contains androstadienone, but probably at a low concentration. Also, the feminine smell doesn\'t allow us to utilize it to the max.

We need the androstadienone additive to play with!

[travis]

bump

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I don\'t recommend this & don\'t know if it still works, but a few years ago bodybuilders were getting chems by just making up a name of a research group.

I don\'t know if anything\'s been put into place to stop this, but I\'ve not heard anything about it, so I would imagine not.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Can\'t the scent of the womens products be covered up with a mens cologne? By the way, I tried to take a look at the Realm website, but missed it and found this instead:
natural attraction (\"http://www.naturalattraction.com/\") Has anyone tried those products?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Well, I\'ve tried mixing Realm for Women with men\'s cologne. You can do it, but it doesn\'t smell great. It also prevents you from putting on very much.