Ethics of Using Pheromones

[Muscle4Hire]

I'm

going to pose one question to you guys and I want all of your thoughts.

Do you feel that, while using

pheromones, women (or men) are attracted to you soley because of the pheromones?

I ask this because I am

asking myself the same question. I tend to believe that they are attracted to the pheromones, and not me... that

tends to affect my self esteem.

I haven't used pheromones in about 2 months now. I wanted to "do it the honest

way" through appearance, social skills, and most of all, personality. I'm a fun outgoing guy with my own life and

passions. My looks are about a 7 on an average day and an 8 on good ones. I've been studying social skills and the

dynamics of attraction by people in the seduction community (I call it attraction community.) People like David

DeAngelo, Mystery, Style, etc etc... all have valid points and I have used them to better my life.

It's clear

to me that the thing that controls my attraction to women and other people is me, not pheromones. I feel like

pheromones are "cheating" and whenever I see a girl that I would like to start a long term relationship with, I

don't want to use pheromones. I want to be natural, because what will happen when I stop using pheromones? If she

leaves, that will be a downer on my self esteem... that I was still the same person and she lost attraction for me.

You know what I mean?

Belgareth I'd like to hear from you, if you wish. PM me if you are inclined to.



Thanks for any input everybody

[bronzie]

oh the Ethics of pheromone

use.....this question has been posted many a time, your chasing your tail to find an answer, its more philosophical

than one might expect....

[jvkohl]

I feel like

pheromones are "cheating" and whenever I see a girl that I would like to start a long term relationship with, I

don't want to use pheromones. I want to be natural, because what will happen when I stop using pheromones?



Bronzie, I don't think that the ethics of pheromone use is so philosophical, though--yes--it has

been discussed several times. Last time it came up I think I commented on women with breast enlargement, use of

make-up, stylish clothes etc for comparative purposes.

Muscle4Hire, do you think we would ever see any woman

express such concerns about either "natural" or "unnatural" enhancement of their attractive features?

For

example: Dear Abby, whenever I see a man I would like to start a long term relationship with, the first thing I do

is take off all my make-up, take out my breast padding, and change into sweat pants and a sweat shirt. I want to be

natural because I fear what will happen if he ever finds me in his bed with my messy hair, no clothes, and no

make-up.
Signed: Not an early riser
----------------------------------------------------------
Smelling

good means looking good!

JVK

[Muscle4Hire]

Good point JV. In other

words, women use everything in their power to attract men... tight jeans, short skirts, pop their breasts out, do

their hair... the list goes on. Do us as men think this is unethical? No. Hell, we like it and I'm a little

offended when they don't wear makeup as to say "hey, aren't I worth it?"

Anyway, that's a good point, but

I'm still thinking about this one.

*Please don't close this thread!*

I realized there have been posts

about this before i.e.

http://www.love-scent.com/f

orum/showthread.php?t=2689&highlight=ethics+pheromones (http://www.pherolibrary.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2689&highlight=ethics+pheromones)

I believe this thread does have usage. Please try

to answer my question as specifically as possible: Do you feel that, while using pheromones, women (or men) are

attracted to you soley because of the pheromones?

Then, please add any additional thoughts on it. I am

thinking of a term called NLP reframing here. If you recognize that terminology, plug away.

Thanks

[jvkohl]

I've never known a woman to be

solely attracted by anything. If the package is not complete, any part of it can be a deal breaker. But the

pheromones can be the ice breaker. At least that way you have more opportunity to decide what hoops you're going to

jump through, if any. Pheromone-enhancement can lead her to do some jumping.

With regard to NLP, it is

definitely the pheromones that are doing the programming. Other associated sensory input makes us think we're

responding to the associated sensory input. But only pheromones have the ability to directly activate genes in cells

of tissue in the brain that direct the organ systems that influence behavior. Direct activation of the

gene-cell-tissue-organ-organ system pathway is the key issue in modeling human, or non-human animal behavior. We can

consciously over ride our non-human animal behavior, but ususally don't -- we are driven by unconscious affect,

just like ever other species on the planet.

Now that fMRI shows differential activation of the human

hypothalamus by human pheromones, other theories of sensory input driven behavior should attempt to explain their

validation: model used; organization/activation; nature/nuture; evolution/creation; effect on hormones/affect on

behavior. Either these dichotomies are eliminated, or the model doesn't extend well to

humans.

JVK

[maxo-texas]

1) What are the ethics of the

guy or girl who naturally has high mone output?
2) How about the ethics of the naturally busty blonde?
3) How

about the ethics of the rich person?
4) What about lipstick?
5) Getting a hair transplant?
6) Having a hot

car...
7) Very nice clothing...
8) A good haircut...
9) Whitened, straightened teeth...
10) Using jelqing to

lengthen your piece by a 1/2"
11) Etc.

No ethical conflict here.

[Gegogi]

Do you feel that, while

using pheromones, women (or men) are attracted to you soley because of the pheromones?

Hell no. That

only happens with insects and other small critters. Otherwise you could spray 'mones on a corpse at a funeral and

watch the ladies drop on the stiff like flies.

My experience is 'mones only enhance or amp up what you

already have. They do not add or take away anything. If you're a charming guy, you're even more engaging with

'mones. If you're a ass, 'mones help project you as an even larger hinny. If a lady has feelings or attraction

for you, the 'mones entice and urge her on. She'll often be more forward than normal. However she ultimately does

what she really wants to do. If there is no attraction, a litter of NPA poured down your drawers won't help one

iota (save making yo' balls twitch).

[gaf]

I agree with what gegogi

said...
I've noticed that sometimes they just seem to have little effect , usually because I feel a little flat on

that day and don't have my happy face on.

[belgareth]

I'm with Gegogi as well. mones

are only a small part of the whole attraction picture and aren't all that important. Reading these threads, I'm

often convinced that the mones had nothing to do with the results people get other than acting as an ego booster.

They help at times but at other times it seems very unlikely the mones had anything to do with it other than how a

new suit would help you attract some women. They do help but if you look like the hunchback or don't brush your

teeth and shower pheromones aren't going to do much.

Ethics are strange. What you might consider unethical I

might find completely acceptable or vice versa. I'm not going to tell you to live by my ethics but expect you to

live by your own. If you feel pheromones are in some way unethical you shouldn't use them.

If there is an issue

with your ego, that's something else altogether. Somebody else asked about mones being harmful and the same thing

applies. If you are concerned that mones do too much instead of the real you affecting the girls, don't wear

mones.

[maxo-texas]

And then... what's the real

you?

If you act some way long enough- does that become the real you?

How many real you's do most people

have?

Even the most intimate people in my life don't get the entire "real" me. Even if they ever did briefly-

we all change constantly and at different rates.

[belgareth]

That's true too. I can think

of 4-5 personalities I show depending on the situation. One for my kids, another for my wife, still another for my

employees and another for my peer group in business plus another for a service group I work with and another for

when I lecture. All are similar but none are the same.

[smooth312]

Hell no. That

only happens with insects and other small critters. Otherwise you could spray 'mones on a corpse at a funeral and

watch the ladies drop on the stiff like flies.

My experience is 'mones only enhance or amp up what you already

have. They do not add or take away anything. If you're a charming guy, you're even more engaging with 'mones. If

you're a ass, 'mones help project you as an even larger hinny. If a lady has feelings or attraction for you, the

'mones entice and urge her on. She'll often be more forward than normal. However she ultimately does what she

really wants to do. If there is no attraction, a litter of NPA poured down your drawers won't help one iota (save

making yo' balls twitch).
I agree.

'Mones only make women who already would be potentially attracted

to you, to show signs of attraction.

I'm an attractive, social guy. 'Mones enhance my already confident

nature, and with them I become God's gift to women, literally.

Still, without 'mones, women do get flirty

around me, approach me, smile at me, stare, etc...but it just happens much less frequently...maybe once or twice a

week. With 'mones it happens several times in one day.

But those several times are all from women who would

already find me attractive. It just intensifies their attraction to me, by like 10x.

I have no ethical

problems with 'mones.

The only problem I have is if someone found out I used them...that would suck somewhat.

[live4themusic]

I don't think there's

anything wrong with using pheromones on a personal level, but then again I don't think there's anything wrong with

using drugs that are currently illegal.

If in the future, it ever surfaces that certain pheromones produced by

humans can have detrimental effects on the health of people exposed to them, or developing babies or something, then

yeah I could see it being wrong to wear high amounts of that pheromone.

At the same time, I don't think it's

very likely that chemicals naturally produced BY humans could be harmful to humans. Now I know there are some

'pheromones' being produced now that are minor chemical alterations of pheromones that have long been established,

and I could understand if it is proven that somehow these new mutant pheromones are harmful to humans, but I don't

think even that is very likely.

[Muscle4Hire]

Good points, all of you. I

must say that I have found on 2 separate occasions that I have worn pheromones as an experiment and then purposely

NOT worn them around the girl to see what happens. In both cases, the girls were extremely attracted to me. I then

tested out one time not wearing the pheromones and acting the same, not changing a thing, and both times I had the

interest drop off to where they wouldn't even answer my calls.

This was after interacting with them a couple

of times and then them wanting to go out to get some coffee, so we didn't really know each other that well. So,

what this is saying is that it would not be a good idea to remove the pheromones early on in the relationship.

However, after you are really connected personality wise, it's really hard for a girl to just detach herself. But

then again, removing the pheromones could have that waining effect on the girl's psych, which makes her think that

she's not getting the same feelings anymore.

I think my new question is: What if pheromones were not

manufactured anymore? Do you think your relationships would die out?

[bronzie]

I think

my new question is: What if pheromones were not manufactured anymore? Do you think your relationships would die

out?

a relationship involves alot more then synthetic pheromones, so no

[Muscle4Hire]

Bronzie always with the one

liner responses... You must've twisted what I said. Let me rephrase this.

Of course a relationship involves

more than pheromones but taking out the pheros cold turkey can really have a detrimental effect. The removal of that

stimulus can have a snowball effect on her psyche. She's got that phero high around you and you both are havin fun

yadda yadda... then you take phero high away and emotionally, she starts to think the fun is over. You still do fun

stuff, but its not the same. I'm just being realistic here.

This is something I imagine is pretty common.

[maxo-texas]

Yup.

It would be like

taking the drinking out of going out clubbing. I can't relax and get giddy to the same level without it.

What

you say also applies to natural mone production. When it declines with age, you lose some of that

spark.

However- I think women's emotional connection is broken more by a lot of other things that have nothing

to do with mones. And long term relationships turn on those emotional connections.

[Muscle4Hire]

Okay, thank you all for the

posts. JVK, you are da man. I need to get your audio tape.

Anyway, my frame was: If I use pheromones and

attract a woman, she is only attracted to the pheromones. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't have her and if I take

them away, she will leave.

My new reframe: Pheromones can only break the ice for me. I still need to be

looking good and in a great mood to express my best qualities. I've had girls hooked on my pheros before but the

fact that I was in a bad mood/didn't have social skills killed the attraction. Therefore, the pheromones only

loosen her up to experience you and you need the personality to go along with that. Who you are as a man (or woman)

is what attraction is based on.

[jvkohl]

My new

reframe: Pheromones can only break the ice for me. I still need to be looking good and in a great mood to express

my best qualities. I've had girls hooked on my pheros before but the fact that I was in a bad mood/didn't have

social skills killed the attraction. Therefore, the pheromones only loosen her up to experience you and you need the

personality to go along with that. Who you are as a man (or woman) is what attraction is based on.



I like the reframing, but also want to call your attention to an article I just cited in the

Pheromone Research portion of this Forum. The article attests to the power of a single exposure to a pheromone, and

to its potential long term affect on behavior. Human studies can be predicted to demonstrate similar

affects.

JVK

[tenaciousBLADE]

I was

gonna say the reframing Maxo-Texas did, on his first reply here, was good and to the point, which it is. But yours’,

Muscle, is EVEN BETTER. Well done! :thumbsup:

Now about what JVK said early in this thread, I agree to a

great extent; except for one little thing. I don't think the `mones are the ONLY thing doing the programming here.

Indeed, they do a lot of it; but at the most-part, what they program is the context. I can't think of a better way

to put it than the way golem put it (http://www.pherolibrary.com/pheromone-guide/cookbook/cbpagec.htm):

The pheromones are just the icing on the cake, But YOU my friend, are THE CAKE.

In this, I'm actually

agreeing strongly with something else JVK said… The package HAS to be complete. In this case, you’d be the

package, and the pheromones would simply be the amazing wrapping that says to her “Take me, take me! :lol: I have

something valuable inside! :lovestruc”.
So yes, of course that she’d normally get the point quicker, with the aid

of the rapid `mone-messengers sending her brain the point through the body, but the point (that you’re worth

it) would be there with or without the `mones.

Now, just to get things clear… The other things doing the

programming are various. For example: your behavior, the additional context (i.e. the environment you’re in at that

moment, the previous activities she did & her feelings towards them etc.), the coordination between what you say &

what you do, the `rapport` between the two of you etc. etc.
But that wasn’t my point here. There are many aspects

to her liking you & you can’t be expected to be aware of each and every one of them, besides, that awareness will

increase by itself following the experience you gain with time.
The point remains that YOU are the

package, and the `mones are not what she’s attracted to, but rather what initially attracts her to you.



Another important thing to remember is, that just as you said you like makeup on some women, the `mones

only compliment you. And she most probably enjoys them in the same manner she might've enjoy sex toys. You know

what I mean? ;)
It’s a bonus for them AND for us. Nothing un-ethical about it IMO :D

The reaction by

people who find out about your `mone-usage, can indeed remind us somewhat of that to an un-ethical behavior (I say

this, unfortunately, from experience). But that has only to do with the automated pre-programmed effect of that

persons’ personal view on whatever external “manipulation” they associate the to-them-unknown-and-unclarified

concept of `mones. Remember, that manipulation should have no negative associations here… it simply means

specific-communication. Yet to them, it sometimes does have a negative association. Why? `coz they

generalize; we all do, it’s efficient, it just gets outta control sometimes. They might have been hurt by one type

of manipulation & generalized a "run-from" behavior towards all types of manipulation or even

seemingly-manipulations.

Taking off the `mones by the way, doesn't end the relationship. After she found out, I

did take them off, and she was still convinced I had them on all the time. She kept declaring "You put that special

cologne again!:whip:" Even though I was `a la natural`. It was actually a while after I decided to put them back on,

when our relationship started going down the stairs, so to speak.

Oh and Gegogi… I love the way you put it.

I definitely agree!
I’d elaborate but… (see P.S. lol)

P.S. (My.. hehe... :p It's already here? Oh

dear...)
I just GOTTA learn to shorten my posts… pheew… I have no clue how I’m going to do that lol…

[jvkohl]

Now,

just to get things clear… The other things doing the programming are various. For example: your behavior, the

additional context (i.e. the environment you’re in at that moment, the previous activities she did & her feelings

towards them etc.), the coordination between what you say & what you do, the `rapport` between the two of you etc.

etc.

Here's a news video that I think is a good

example.

http://www.fox10tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5653893

It's from another thread, but

useful in the context above. In the first example, I perceive the wearer to be a rather obnoxious drunk who has no

concept of how to interact positively with women. So, of course he thinks that human pheromones don't work. In the

second example, the wearer seems more personable and successfully interacts with two women. Still, he is skeptical

about whether the pheromones affected the women. Skepticism is great if it leads to learning more about a particular

topic. If he was interested enough to learn more, the biological explanation for what appeared to be happening is

very convincing.

JVK

[tenaciousBLADE]

Yes, I've seen the video

on the original thread already, and I agree completely on what you're sayinghere :)
Both about skepticism & about

the behavior of the `mone-user being an important factor of the programming mentioned above.

[platinumfox]

Hell no. That

only happens with insects and other small critters. Otherwise you could spray 'mones on a corpse at a funeral and

watch the ladies drop on the stiff like flies.

My experience is 'mones only enhance or amp up what you

already have. They do not add or take away anything. If you're a charming guy, you're even more engaging with

'mones. If you're a ass, 'mones help project you as an even larger hinny. If a lady has feelings or attraction

for you, the 'mones entice and urge her on. She'll often be more forward than normal. However she ultimately does

what she really wants to do. If there is no attraction, a litter of NPA poured down your drawers won't help one

iota (save making yo' balls twitch).I agree with Gegogi.Mones add to your "game" but you if you are not a

"player" to begin with they won't work for you.Women do they same with the way they dress they know what they are

doing by getting our attention.Our way is more chemical LOL!

[platinumfox]

I agree

with Gegogi.Mones add to your "game" but you if you are not a "player" to begin with they won't work for you.Women

do they same with the way they dress they know what they are doing by getting our attention.Our way is more chemical

LOL!Just to add there is no difference to what we do by using mones and the guys who buy expensive

cars,clothes etc. to attract women.....our way is cheaper and we get more results.

[tenaciousBLADE]

our way is cheaper

and we get more results.
lol Cute!
I second that one ;)

[smooth312]

You know...going back to this

thread...I want to make another comment:

It's that, after using 'mones for about 7 months now, I can say that

I'm a lot more comfortable with this concept...

Because, the reactions I get are very similar to the reactions I

would get from women anyway when I was younger, in my late teens, and probably had much higher natural 'mone

levels.

I understand, as I've started to notice, that everyone has natural 'mones...in fact, the reactions I

got back then were even more incredible. Sometimes girls would be very intimidated by my looks. I look no

different from the way I used to look back then...which leads me to believe, the only reason women may have seemed

to lose interest may have been something else...my level of 'mones. When I started using 'mones, those reactions

came back...so my conclusion is that 'mones are very real, and they play an immense role in attraction between

sexes.

I justify use of 'mones to myself with an analogy like this...

...It's like guys who use Viagra to

help with erectile dysfunction. I'm not a fat, bald, slob who's getting women that wouldn't otherwise want to be

with me. Sure, you get an incredible hit here or there, but for the most part, I'm just maintaining my 'mone

level as it was long ago. I've always been attractive, and 'mones just help me maintain that edge that I had

moreso when I was younger...and so now since it's fading in my early twenties, I'm just putting it back at the

level it should be. It's just like any other supplement that is meant to keep you young, beautiful, etc...

I

think it would be unethical only if you could automatically make women sleep with you with some product. It

doesn't happen, you still need social skills, you need game, you need confidence...girls don't just fall into your

lap because of your scent...you have to be the whole package.

[jvkohl]

I've always been

attractive, and 'mones just help me maintain that edge that I had moreso when I was younger...and so now since

it's fading in my early twenties, I'm just putting it back at the level it should be. It's just like any other

supplement that is meant to keep you young, beautiful, etc...


In theory, the "fading" starts in

the mid 20's due to levels of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) that begin declining in a straight line with age.

Similar decreases in testosterone do not begin until much later in life--at least as is known at this time. My point

is that -rone is one of the two primary metabolites of DHEA (associated with masculinity). So, what you have alluded

to is the likely need to increase the -rone component of your scent signature during the aging process in order to

maintain attraction to your natural scent.

JVK

[maxo-texas]

Oddly, my DHEA sulphate test

levels are normal for a 35 year old and i still see the effects of mones and teste supplementation (at 45).

[jvkohl]

Oddly, my DHEA

sulphate test levels are normal for a 35 year old and i still see the effects of mones and teste supplementation (at

45).

So, maybe the effects of mones make your scent signature more like that of a 25 y/o.

Testosterone supplementation might influence pathways involved either in DHEA metabolilsm, or in metabolism of

other hormones to putative human pheromones.

JVK

[bkshilo]

Pheromones are totally ethical. We produce them naturally. In using these products we are merely

enhancing the effects of our current pheromone production.

Similar to taking vitamins and other nutritional

supplements. Trying to make the system (body) produce better results.

[tenaciousBLADE]

smooth312.. I SO know what you mean lol
I'm only 22yrs young and I've already

noticed a difference between now and my early-to-later teen age (13 to 17 mostly).
And I too feel this

way:

I've always been attractive, and 'mones just help me maintain that edge that I had moreso when I was

younger..
I do keep in mind though, that I'm still not fading much ;)
Yet, as you said: "more so".
I

guess the `mone usage has to be adapted to each owns' ageing process :think:

bkshilo: Your title was simple and

true. Isn't this thread REALLY interesting? :D