Riots

[Mtnjim]

The other day, while in Germany,

the Pope quoted some old 16th century paper that said that some of the teachings of Islam were violent. Seems the

Moslems got ticked off about that and started riots in a couple of cities and killed a Nun. :blink:

Does that

perhaps prove a point?

Do you think if some imam quoted a 16th century paper about some of the teachings being

violent a bunch of Catholics would riot?

[belgareth]

They might. Think about all the

christian violence in Ireland.

In both cases I imagine the perpetrators were not mainstream but fanatics.

[Mtnjim]

They might. Think

about all the christian violence in Ireland.

That's more along the Sunni/Shia disputes in

Iraq.


In both cases I imagine the perpetrators were not mainstream but fanatics.
Absolutely,

it's plain to see it's the Wing Nuts that are doing it. Most Moslems are fine normal people, it's the

wackos that are giving them a bad name. 'course, "W" is doing a great job of getting the "normal" ones pissed off

at us...


The author says that there are at least 150 different Moslem sects. The two main ones are

the Sunnis (the most numerous) and the Shiites. ...
Now there's something I didn't know... 150?

[belgareth]

I was just using Ireland as an

example of mindless violence with religion as the excuse. Sorry that I wasn't more clear. Could have used the Klan

here for the same purpose. Mindless stupidity in either case. I've long wondered if there was something wrog, some

imbalance that pushes people to becoming fanatics.

150? That is a bunch but I guess it shouldn't surprise us

much. How many Christian sects are there? Want to bet if the same applies to Bhudism?

[bronzie]

The other day, I mentioned in a

post and said that the USA is the most powerful state on earth. I should have been a little clearer. The most

powerful state on earth is actually a tiny place called the Vatican. This place/body has more INFLUENCE over

humanity and civilization than any other place on earth.

Jim, Pope Benedict XVI quoted Emperor Manual II

Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, if anyone here reads up on history with regards to the Byzantine Empire, they

will clearly discover, the Empire had no relation to the Frank Crusaders that went on their quest to towards the

middle east in the middle ages (some Muslim clerics and leaders have made a rather false connection) and Emperor

Manual II Paleologos did state the things he did, and I believe for good reason. Not that I really want to make my

thoughts public, especially on this sensitive issue, but because I belong to the Christian “sect” that Emperor

Manual II Paleologos belonged too. And so do many millions of my countrymen, (including Russia) history has shown at

least in my homeland that Islam was used as weapon of violence to the non believers, and it was not just fanatical

Islamists, back then, in Emperor Manual II Paleologos time, everyone that followed Islam was fundamentalist, felt a

religious superiority, and the religion did spread by the sword, and all people who did not convert to Islam where

either killed or enslaved. This is a fact, at least in the Balkans.

I think the Pope was trying to make an

analogy with modern religious fanatics, but seems alot of Muslims took this out of context.

[Mtnjim]

everyone that

followed Islam was fundamentalist, felt a religious superiority, and the religion did spread by the sword, and all

people who did not convert to Islam where either killed or enslaved.

I basically agree with you except I

would change one statement to:

everyone ... was fundamentalist, felt a religious superiority, and the religion

did spread by the sword, and all people who did not convert ...where either killed or enslaved.

To be really

accurate.

[bronzie]

No Jim, I wont change it,

because what im saying is historically correct with regard to Islam and Greece and most of the Balkans. The Ottoman

Turks conquered Greece, the Ottoman Turks were not secular, they were an Islamic theocracy, and they invaded what is

now Greece for 400 years. They ruled by the sword, anyone that did not convert to Islam was killed, those that they

let live, were enslaved to serve their masters but were considered infidels and no better then cattle.

Sure,

Christians, in other parts of the world did terrible things in the name of their religion. But, what I find

interesting is that most Christians will accept this fact and acknowledge it happened. The late Pope John 11 went to

the head of the Orthodox Church and apologized for the crusades and the ransacking of Constantinople by its

soldiers. Considering the uproar now over a relatively minor speech, I really find it hard to believe that a Muslim

Spiritual leader or Muslim head of state would do the same thing with their past actions.

I sense a double

standard.

[koolking1]

I can't say that I blame the

Muslims all that much over the Pope's remarks. Today's reality is such that Muslims are being looked at hard and

not so kindly by many other people in the world, just look around at the airport when you travel next, there's been

instances of people just saying to the authorities "hey, those people look like terrorists". These times call for

"calming messages" from religious leaders, not bringing up "alarming messages" from the ancient past.

[belgareth]

I can't blame the muslims for

anger but random violence and destruction isn't the answer either. It isn't going to solve anything.

In any

case, more of the same:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200

60923/ap_on_re_as/indonesia_christian_executions (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060923/ap_on_re_as/indonesia_christian_executions)

[bronzie]

I can't blame

the muslims for anger but random violence and destruction isn't the answer either. It isn't going to solve

anything.

In any case, more of the same:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200

60923/ap_on_re_as/indonesia_christian_executions (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060923/ap_on_re_as/indonesia_christian_executions)

It was politically motivated, and religion was

at the core of the issue, as an Australian, im well aware of the tit for tat games Indonesia plays in the region.

For those that dont know, the only regional threat and land and sea dispute that Australia has, is with indonesia,

these incidents constantly happen, in the near future, the Indonesians will execute nine Australians for drug

related offences, however the crime does not meet the punishment, again its a political move.

[belgareth]

The only relevent questions are

if the punishments meet the legal standards, were determined by a defacto legal system and have been independently

reviewed within the legal context. In any country, if you commit a crime within their borders you are subject to the

repercussions of their laws.

[bronzie]

the case at hand was quite

complicated, and a fair degree of indonesean and australian politicians were at each others throats.

bel, what

you say is fine, but in a country like indoneasea that is corrupt, including the justice system, anyone that stands

in thier docks, does not recieve justice, they even breach thier own laws with sentencing offenders, its very

complicated, all of south asia is.

[belgareth]

I don't doubt that for a

minute. The question I would like answered is multi part. Did these people break the laws of the nation seeking to

punish them? If so, what is the prescribed punishment under those laws? Did they knowlingly break those laws and

were they aware of the potential for a death sentence?

[bronzie]

I was thinking of the nine

australians, not the 2 you meantion, who are the 2? the christians? I will look the case up, and indoneseas laws

regarding the offence and other circumstances

to me, looking at thier legal system, thier past experience

with offenders, etc, its very draconian, in my opinion

as its like morning and have not zzzzzz yet, i must be

off, or il just rummble along...saying nothing of value

[belgareth]

I never mentioned a number and

who is irrelevent as well as whether or not their system is draconian. If the natives rub blue mud in their navals

and dance naked, you rub blue mud in your naval and dance naked while in their country. If you don't like blue mud,

stay out of their country.

[Mohammad Shah]

the case at

hand was quite complicated, and a fair degree of indonesean and australian politicians were at each others

throats.

bel, what you say is fine, but in a country like indoneasea that is corrupt, including the justice

system, anyone that stands in thier docks, does not recieve justice, they even breach thier own laws with sentencing

offenders, its very complicated, all of south asia is.

Dearest Bronzie,
How are you doing? I do

understand how you feel regarding this matter. If I were you, I might felt the same, but f.y.i. drug related offence

in South East Asia countries mostly are punishable by death mandatory. The Government in this region take this

matter very seriously, it has nothing to do with corruption or whatsoever. Have you seen what drugs can do to

people? It break-up families...weakened a nation. It is simply that if you carry drugs here, (above a certain qty.)

you will be hanged. But of course you will be given a fair trail until you're proven guilty or not. I've seen many

drug related cases were dismissed so I guess the system is reliable.

Anyway, I do not want to offend or quarrel

with anybody, just trying my best to explain the situation. If my post here is uncomfortable to anyone, I sincerely

wud like to apologise.

Actually, I prefer to discuss abt the effects of pheromones here. A young girl who came

to stay with me recently, is showing some interest in me. Another girl (a housemate) also shows a positive interest.

Hopefully it will be better from time to time. I, actually was looking for a good relationship. Bronzie, have you

got any luck lately?

Thanks, May God bless us all.

Mohammad Shah,
MALAYSIA.

[Mohammad Shah]

The other

day, I mentioned in a post and said that the USA is the most powerful state on earth. I should have been a little

clearer. The most powerful state on earth is actually a tiny place called the Vatican. This place/body has more

INFLUENCE over humanity and civilization than any other place on earth.

Jim, Pope Benedict XVI quoted Emperor

Manual II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, if anyone here reads up on history with regards to the Byzantine

Empire, they will clearly discover, the Empire had no relation to the Frank Crusaders that went on their quest to

towards the middle east in the middle ages (some Muslim clerics and leaders have made a rather false connection) and

Emperor Manual II Paleologos did state the things he did, and I believe for good reason. Not that I really want to

make my thoughts public, especially on this sensitive issue, but because I belong to the Christian “sect” that

Emperor Manual II Paleologos belonged too. And so do many millions of my countrymen, (including Russia) history has

shown at least in my homeland that Islam was used as weapon of violence to the non believers, and it was not just

fanatical Islamists, back then, in Emperor Manual II Paleologos time, everyone that followed Islam was

fundamentalist, felt a religious superiority, and the religion did spread by the sword, and all people who did not

convert to Islam where either killed or enslaved. This is a fact, at least in the Balkans.

I think the Pope was

trying to make an analogy with modern religious fanatics, but seems alot of Muslims took this out of

context.

Dear Bronzie,
If we argue on religion matters, it never ends. No matter how much knowledge we

have, when come to religion matters, we tend to have a 'complete shutdown'. We won't give ourselves a chance to

understand others. I always believe in tolerance and respect which I tought my 2 daughters in their daily lives.

Take some time to read about Islam especially of it's Prophet Mohammad and his life. No harm in doing that isn't?

You will find that most of the statements made by some ignorant people are incorrect and misleading.
I'm a Muslim

and most of my friends are non-Muslim and we don't see any kind of 'confrantation' here (if I can use this word)

bcoz there is one factor in it which I called RESPECT.

Bronzie, wud love to know more abt you. Perhaps we can

change ideas.
Pheromone stuff will be a good one to start, I guess.

Have a nice day.

Mohammad Shah.

[belgareth]

Mohammad Shah,

Thanks for

posting that. I'm glad you said it.

There is a lot of nonsense floating around about Muslims and most of it,

like that said about other religions, is pure fiction based on ignorance. The muslim faith, what I know of it, is

based on peace and does not in any way condone violence. Nor are the true believers any more violent or fanatical

than the true believers of any other faith. More than anything else, each of us should practice understanding and

tolerance, if not pleasure, from the differences rather than using them as an excuse to fight each other.

To

many the Pope is a powerful voice, to others he means little or nothing. Even in the USA he is a subject of

controversy and is not all that highly regarded by a large segment of the population. Like any other religious

figure or political figure, he has his good and bad points.

[Mohammad Shah]

Mohammad

Shah,

Thanks for posting that. I'm glad you said it.

There is a lot of nonsense floating around about

Muslims and most of it, like that said about other religions, is pure fiction based on ignorance. The muslim faith,

what I know of it, is based on peace and does not in any way condone violence. Nor are the true believers any more

violent or fanatical than the true believers of any other faith. More than anything else, each of us should practice

understanding and tolerance, if not pleasure, from the differences rather than using them as an excuse to fight each

other.

To many the Pope is a powerful voice, to others he means little or nothing. Even in the USA he is a

subject of controversy and is not all that highly regarded by a large segment of the population. Like any other

religious figure or political figure, he has his good and bad points.

Dear Belgareth,

Thanks to you

too, especially for understanding Islam and giving a fair statement on it. I wished that we have many wise people

like you around who are able to make a slight change in perception.

May Allah bless you always.

Mohammad

Shah.

[Bruce]

Hi Mohammad,

You are very

welcome here. We have many Muslim customers (mostly in the Arab countries), but rarely do they post in the forum.

Or maybe they do, but we never know it.

There are good and bad in all countries, cultures and religions. I

spent most of my life overseas so I am very used to being seen as a "foreigner". One good thing about it is that

you think twice before criticizing anyone for being different. In fact, as foreigners, we used to stick together

very tightly, so we were shoulder to shoulder with folks from all over the world; various religions, races,

languages. That made such a strong impression on me that to this day I tend to feel more comfortable with folks

from different ethnic backgrounds. I sort of get the feeling "OK, this person is open minded. Otherwise, they

wouldn't be able take being 'different'". One thing you will notice about bigots of any race, regligion, country

or culture, they rarely if ever leave the security of their home country. Too unpredictable for their

taste.

By the way, I lived in Germany for many years when I was young. At that time there were lots of Turks

living there. They were predominantly Muslims and not very well treated by the Germans as I remember. I was very

interested in Eastern reglion at the time (as I still am of course), and I happened to get invited to a meeting of

Turkish Sufis (a group of Muslim mystics). They were very nice to me and happy to have me participate in their

practises which were amazing and very ecstatic. I can still remember it to this day.

Peace to All,
B

[Mohammad Shah]

Hi

Mohammad,

You are very welcome here. We have many Muslim customers (mostly in the Arab countries), but rarely do

they post in the forum. Or maybe they do, but we never know it.

There are good and bad in all countries,

cultures and religions. I spent most of my life overseas so I am very used to being seen as a "foreigner". One good

thing about it is that you think twice before criticizing anyone for being different. In fact, as foreigners, we

used to stick together very tightly, so we were shoulder to shoulder with folks from all over the world; various

religions, races, languages. That made such a strong impression on me that to this day I tend to feel more

comfortable with folks from different ethnic backgrounds. I sort of get the feeling "OK, this person is open minded.

Otherwise, they wouldn't be able take being 'different'". One thing you will notice about bigots of any race,

regligion, country or culture, they rarely if ever leave the security of their home country. Too unpredictable for

their taste.

By the way, I lived in Germany for many years when I was young. At that time there were lots of

Turks living there. They were predominantly Muslims and not very well treated by the Germans as I remember. I was

very interested in Eastern reglion at the time (as I still am of course), and I happened to get invited to a meeting

of Turkish Sufis (a group of Muslim mystics). They were very nice to me and happy to have me participate in their

practises which were amazing and very ecstatic. I can still remember it to this day.

Peace to All,
B



Dear Mr.Bruce,

Thanks for the warm welcome. The two elements which I noticed to be the root of the "problem"

are FEAR and HATRED. Differences among people should be taken positively but here the moment we have differences,

the other party becomes our enemy instantly, instead of we take initiative to learn and to explore, we start firing

the missiles at each other. Perhaps it is not suitable to ask this in this forum, but I wud like to ask anybody who

is skeptical about Islam not to fear or to hate it. Enter the world of Islam with an 'open mind' and see for

yourself. I don't guarantee anything here, like the pheromones, it sometimes give you amazing 'results'.



Actually, I'm still looking for pheromones which will work for me. At the moment, I'm experimenting with

Pherlure and Lure for Him. Perhaps I should order "The Beginers Special/KiT". What do you recommend, Mr.Bruce?



Thanks again. May God bless us all.

Mohammad Shah.