Glutathione

[Icehawk]

Read the paper at vrp.com

(http://www.vrp.com/art/1181.asp) and the stuff sounds real interesting. Anybody have more info on it?

how come Ive never heard of it before?

[BizmanJoe]

Read the paper at vrp.com

(http://www.vrp.com/art/1181.asp) and the stuff sounds real

interesting. Anybody have more info on it? how come Ive never heard of it before?

Info has been there a

long time. Now, folks, don't run out and buy glutathione just because of this article. What the article didn't

state is that this tripeptide (glutathione consists of cysteine, glutamic acid and gycine and hence is a tripeptide)

, if taken orally does NOT increase cellular glutathione levels. The problem is that glutathione cannot be

transported intact across the cellular membrane. However, you can overcome this dilemma by consuming undenatured

whey isolates and dimethylglycine (DMG) together, which allows your body to create additional glutathione.

:thumbsup:

[surfs_up]

Glutathione levels became relevant when it was discovered that Tylenol (acetaminophen)

could severely deplete glutathione, especially if used in concert with alcohol... Tylenol poisoning is actually

the liver self destructing from lack of the protective effects of glutathione.

There are two ways you

can build your glutathione. Take either SAMe (s-adenosyl-methionine) or n-acetyl-cysteine ... the acetylation allows

for effecient transport... one side effect of NAC is stinky sweat, like eating onions... SAMe doesn't have this

effect.

The downside of NAC or SAMe is that they pass through a potentially toxic metabolic phase known as

homo-cysteine that has to be methylated into the amino acid methionine. In order to do this you should take TMG or

Tri-Methyl-Glycine, or a good amount of DMG, Di-Methyl-Glycine when you take you NAC or SAMe...

There's one

extra twist to this process, and the twist has a twist... here goes... oxidised Glutathione IS toxic, so the body

has an enzyme called Glutathione Peroxidase which reverts Glutathione back to its' safe, reduced state. GP is a

rare bird of an enzyme in that it is based on the trace mineral selenium which is extremely toxic in it's

inorganic form... so selenium must be carefully made into an organic form so the body can convert it into GP

enzyme...

So the nutrition companies have sold many "selenium supplements" that aren't all that effective.

Why ? Because most of this selenium that finds its' way into your body... we're looking at maybe 50 millionths

of a gram per day, doesn't convert into GP, it gets stuck into other proteins where the body has confused it

with sulfur which it closely resembles. It turns out that the one best way to get the selenium where you

need it is an exotic selenium supplement called seleno-cysteine , which is supposedly significantly more effective

that the commonly marketed seleno-methionine...

So, in summary, to handle the glutathione cycle properly, you

need a sulfur source (NAC or SAMe), a methylation source (DMG or TMG), and an effective selenium source,

which has to be seleno-cysteine. All of these metabolic steps have to work in concert.

Since Homocysteine IS

a cardiovascualar risk element, everyone should be tested for an elevated homocysteine level at least once to

determine if this risk factor is present, and all adults should probably be screened for this factor once every ten

years even if the initial levels are within normal ranges.

Note that in the discussion below, there is no

metnion of DMG or TMG, although folic acid, cobalamin (b12), and pyridoxine (b6) are all donors of a methyl group...



one medsite states:

"Why is it important to monitor homocysteine levels?

Elevated levels of

homocysteine (>10 micromoles/liter) in the blood are associated with atherosclerosis (hardening and narrowing of the

arteries) as well as an increased risk of heart attacks, strokes, and possibly Alzheimer's disease.

In 1969,

Dr. Kilmer S. McCully reported that children born with a genetic disorder called homocystinuria, which causes the

homocysteine levels to be very high, sometimes died at a very young age with advanced atherosclerosis in their

arteries. However, it was not until the 1990's that the importance of homocysteine in heart disease and stroke was

appreciated.

How do elevated levels of homocysteine increase the risk of heart attacks and strokes?



Elevated levels of homocysteine in the blood are believed to cause narrowing and hardening of the arteries.

This narrowing leads to diminished blood flow through the affected arteries. Elevated levels of homocysteine in the

blood also increase the tendency to excessive blood clotting. Blood clots inside the arteries further diminish the

flow of blood. The resultant lack of blood supply to the heart muscles causes heart attacks, and the lack of blood

supply to the brain causes strokes.

What causes elevated homocysteine levels?

Homocysteine is

chemically transformed into methionine and cysteine with the help of folic acid, vitamin B12, and vitamin B6.

Therefore, insufficient amounts of these vitamins in the body can hamper the natural breakdown of homocysteine. This

can cause homocysteine to accumulate in the blood. Conversely, a higher folic acid intake and higher levels of body

folate are associated with lower blood homocysteine levels.

How can homocysteine levels be lowered?



The consumption of folic acid supplements or cereals that are fortified with folic acid, and to a lesser

extent vitamins B6 and B12, can lower blood homocysteine levels.

Does lowering homocysteine levels prevent

heart attacks and strokes?

Currently, there is no direct proof that taking folic acid and B vitamins to

lower homocysteine levels prevents heart attacks and strokes. However, in a large population study involving women,

those who had the highest consumption of folic acid (usually in the form of multivitamins) had fewer heart attacks

than those who consumed the least amount of folic acid."

[Holmes]

This is definitely news I can use.

Awhile back I was advised that L-Gluta would be a really good idea for liver detox, etc. I never followed through,

though I certainly have been considering it.

Btw, NAC can be really hard on the stomach. I was never able to

take it long enough to reap any rewards.

[BizmanJoe]

Looks like you did your

homework, surfs up... speaking of which, the surf was pretty decent today in San Diego. Enjoying my vacation at my

old home turf.

I think tier-one quality SAM-e is out of the price range for many people. It'd be much more

cost-effective to go with undenatured whey isolates. As for NAC, I take it daily but I don't have the issues of

onion BO. Perhaps, the sides are dose-dependent. Any info you can share on that surf?

[gabe1970]

As for NAC, I

take it daily but I don't have the issues of onion BO. Perhaps, the sides are dose-dependent. Any info you can

share on that surf?

Onion BO!
WTF?!
I just ordered a ton of this stuff. So now I'm going to smell

like Armani Black Code with a touch of Deer Piss and a top note of ONION?

#$$#@!%%^$### :rant:

[surfs_up]

in me, maybe in you it won't do that... every time I take NAC my body goes past

normal gym rank.... its primordial iguana reek or close to it... even the bottle of NAC smells gnarsty when you open

it.... could be a metabolic thing and you'll be spared... sorry to break the gnews 2 U.... IME... purchase only the

primo grade SAMe in the blister packs... there is a lot, like most of what's on the market, of cheap mislabelled

SAMe that is only a percentage of the real thing... and it is unstable so exposure to light and air is a no-no...

that's why the opaque blister packs... the cool thing about SAMe, assuming you've got the real stuff, is it

inhibits a bodily "self destruct factor" called TNF-1, or tumor necrosis factor 1.... seems that excesses of TNF-1

are impicated in soft tissue inflammation processes, especially arthritic breakdown of the joints... so I take SAMe

as an anti-aging investment, about as effective as ibuprophen against moderate stiffness and swelling.... and if you

drink a lot will to some degree protect your liver against the toxic byproducts of alcohol metabolism... OH, BTW...

be VERY careful about using this popular liver tonic, Silymarin (milk thistle extract) in large doses while

drinking.... it has been marketed as and enjoys an underground reputation as a "liver flush"... this, sadly, is

total bullshit.... it doesn't flush anything... what it does do is stimulate cellular multiplication of liver

cells, which combined with heavy drinking, can actually lead to liver inflammation, fatty liver condition

(steatosis) and liver scarring (cihrossis)... I got this straight from the horses mouths, actually the EMT docs at

St. Lukes Roosevelt Hospital in Manhattan who treat a LOT of acute alcohol poisonings... and they were seeing

palpable (meaning they could feel it by hand manipulation) liver damage in people who were trying to use silymarin

as a "party aid"... they saw the damage particularly when daily doses exceed ONE GRAM of silymarin (that's 1000

milligrams).... Only use silymarin/milk thistle when you are clean.... and NEVER use it in combination with any

anabolic steroids...NEVER,NEVER,NEVER.... otoh, acetyl-cysteine or SAMe can be used in combination with alcohol...

although excess drinking over time WILL injure you on many levels that are not immediately visible, but you will be

whittling years off the back end of your timeline.... and that ain't a pretty sight when you get there... like,

walk around a nursing home sometime.... not where you want to end up, dude.

[gabe1970]

What dose of SAMe are you

taking and why? Also, Where are you getting your info on SAMe brands-- info on supplement quality is hard to pin

down.

And I know of many people who are using Milk Thistle while on anabolics. Can you provide any

documentation of negative liver effects because of it? That information needs to be publicized.

[gabe1970]

And I rarely drink. I won't

drink at all when supplementing my diet with all of these supplements, due to the assumed stress I will be putting

on my liver and kidneys.

[surfs_up]

What dose of SAMe are you taking and why? Also, Where are you getting your info on SAMe brands--

info on supplement quality is hard to pin down.

Har.. I actually call the manufacturers or

distributors and sometimes get quite an earful from the honest employees... seems that the good stuff is made by the

giant German firm BASF.... in the stable butyl disulfonate form, and there is a lot of less stable toysolate form on

the market, coming from God knows where... Life Extension Foundation has done their own extensive analysis and sells

their own high purity line


And I know of many people who are using Milk Thistle

while on anabolics. Can you provide any documentation of negative liver effects because of it? That information

needs to be publicized.

A great deal of this I had to piece together from several information sources

that gave partial, although very illuminating hints of the big picture, as well as by candid, off the books

discussion with some docs and nurses... I had, for example, always assumed that silymarin acted primarily as a

beneficial nutrient or worked in a formal detoxication pathway, like sulfation or glucoronidation which "conjugates"

toxins into an inert form for excretion... I was stunned to find out that it was closer to a limited scope anabolic

that could potentially overdrive the liver...

Also... I had an excellent reference resource in my library...

maybe I can locate it because it was the best single study I had on the silmaryin fractions... here's the story in

brief... silbinin, sylchristin, syldynin are the active components of milk thistle seed extract, which is marketed

as "silymarin" ... so for simplicity call it silymarin...

These substances function within the hepatocytes

(liver cells) as mild anabolic steroids that operate by activating regions of the hepatocyte DNA... in small doses

this can upregulate hepatocyte activity, in larger doses it can encourage hepatocyte multiplication.... and this can

be dangerous in a damaged liver, especially if the liver has extensive interanal scar tissue formation, which is

what cihrossis is, because you have expanding liver tissue being restrained by "ligatures" of scar fibers... in the

soft healthy liver this isn't a proble, the liver might slightly enlarge for a while then reduce back to a normal

organ volume... OTOH, in a rigidified liver, from fatty buildup or from scar binding, the liver is trapped in its

own structure, and the cells that are trying to expand are traumatized... it is theorized that this is one of the

mechanisms by which hepatitis B infection progresses to liver cancer.... can you spell t.r.a.n.s.p.l.a.n.t.a.t.i.o.n

? Not a pretty thought. the paradox is that silymarin in low doses might exert a protective function... however,

this is greatly complicated by the presence of exogenous steroids because they are also acting as DNA stimulants...

so a small dose of silymarin combined with a pharmacologic dose of steroid may be functionally equivalent to a

massive dose of pure silymarin... and nobody knows where that inflection point is...

All said, silymarin

probably IS a valuable ergogenic substance when used conservatively, with an unstressed liver, with excellent

nutrition... and will help regenrate liver under the proper conditions... but how do you determine what those

conditions are ? How many people out there would even appreciate the Gamma Glutamyl Transferase test that may

indicate bile duct obstruction, that MAY (assume close professional monitoring here) contraindicate any form of bile

stimulant ???? Or who knows how to interpret SGOT, SGPT, GGT, LD, blood lipids, CPK integrated with manual

palpation, ultrasound imaging into a well rounded clinical picture of liver health ?

[gabe1970]

This explains the unusually

high number of bodybuilders waiting for liver transplants despite (excuse me - because of ) claiming to have been

careful.

They're also lining up for heart transplants and of course angioplasty, but that's a different issue

altogether.

I think I'll stick with my NAC, Res-V and herbal T-boosters, thank you. I'd like to still be

running on my OEM parts when I'm 90+.

And if ya'll don't know, Transplants and Angioplasty typically last 15

years or less, and are an invitation to experience the wonderful world of pharmaceutically-induced Diabetes.

[BizmanJoe]

in me, maybe in you it won't do that... every time I take NAC my body goes past normal gym

rank.... its primordial iguana reek or close to it... even the bottle of NAC smells gnarsty when you open it....

could be a metabolic thing and you'll be spared... sorry to break the gnews 2 U.... IME... purchase only the primo

grade SAMe in the blister packs... there is a lot, like most of what's on the market, of cheap mislabelled SAMe

that is only a percentage of the real thing... and it is unstable so exposure to light and air is a no-no... that's

why the opaque blister packs... the cool thing about SAMe, assuming you've got the real stuff, is it inhibits a

bodily "self destruct factor" called TNF-1, or tumor necrosis factor 1.... seems that excesses of TNF-1 are

impicated in soft tissue inflammation processes, especially arthritic breakdown of the joints... so I take SAMe as

an anti-aging investment, about as effective as ibuprophen against moderate stiffness and swelling.... and if you

drink a lot will to some degree protect your liver against the toxic byproducts of alcohol metabolism....



Primordial Iguana Piss.... damn, man. That REALLY sounds like some serious reekage. Another way to inhibit TNF-1

and reduce inflammation is to consume systemic enzymes on an EMPTY stomach. A good quality product (#1 in Germany

per manufacturer + used in several clinical studies) is Wobenzyme (get the white pills, not red). This product is

used regularly by arthritic sufferers with a very good result (reduces inflammation & pain, enhances flexibility).

It has also been extensively used for cancer treatment because of its ability to dissolve the thick, fibrous protein

coating on the cancer cells (which then makes the cancer cell visible to the body's immune system). The two unique

compounds in its formulation are Trypsin and Chymotrypsin (pancreatic enzymes), which are especially effective at

breaking down fiberous protein (i.e. cancer cells' protective mechanism). This fits right into the protoblast

theory of cancer which was introduced by a nobel prize winning scientist (I forget his name). Of course other

products have come into market since Wobenzyme was introduced decades ago. Some of the newer formulations that have

been heavily marketed: Vitalzyme (which uses serrapeptase and serrapeptidase derived from silkworms (the silkworms

use these particular enzymes to break through the cocoon as a butterfly), and the latest - Nuprinol, which is

designed with an additional benefit - to dissolve away fibrin, which is very effective for people who are prone to

blood clots. For those who are on Coumadin/Warfarin, Nuprinol is a very effective compound that works just as well

without any of the side effects associated with Coumadin/Warfarin.

[BizmanJoe]

Onion BO!
WTF?!
I just ordered a ton of this stuff. So now I'm going to

smell like Armani Black Code with a touch of Deer Piss and a top note of ONION?

#$$#@!%%^$### :rant:



Yeah, man... it'll be the scent of the century. Let me know how well it works.:lol: